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Hello and welcome to the Label Sessions Presents Podcast.
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Label Sessions is the world's leading innovation expert network.
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In this series you will meet some of the most interesting leaders anywhere, from across the
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world's business, design, tech, culture and sustainability.
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All signed to the Label Sessions roster.
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To find out more about our work, helping brands and institutions around the world take on
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their big challenges for the future, head to LabelSessions.com to find out more.
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For now, enjoy the podcast.
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Once again, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and talk to me.
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I do appreciate it.
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We know you as somebody who's a CIO, CTO, all those wonderful acronyms.
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But I feel like you could best introduce yourself to kick this off.
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I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about your story, your work and where it takes you
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to today.
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Thanks, Josh.
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I studied engineering at the University of Toronto.
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Upon graduation, I worked in the consulting industry, technology consulting with Accenture.
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I was at Accenture for about seven and a half years.
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Great experience, got to travel the world.
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I was on the road 285 hotel nights a year for seven years straight.
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That was interesting.
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I got the travel bug during engineering when I did a one-year co-op term and I got to work
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in Korea and Amsterdam.
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I thought this was a great opportunity to travel more and be in tech.
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Was Accenture for seven and a half years?
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I decided I needed to settle down.
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I went to another consulting firm at Ernst & Young.
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I was there for about five and a half years, still traveled, just not as much.
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Wanted to get into, move away from the large program transformation type work into more
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CIO advisory work, tech strategy, that type of stuff.
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I was there for about five and a half years.
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My last two years at Ernst & Young, I did a lot of IT, M&A work for transaction advisory
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services.
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Representing buyer side or seller side.
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But still on the tech side of things.
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On a personal front, I got married, I had one child, it was time to settle down and get
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off the road.
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I went to financial services, I went to industry.
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One of the largest banks in Canada, TD Bank.
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That was back in 2016 when I got my introduction to the data and analytics space.
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I was there for about two and a half years.
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And then there was a major life insurance company here in Canada, Sunlight Financial.
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They used to be a client of mine when I was consulting.
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So they thought, we had built a great relationship throughout the years as a consultant client
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type partnership.
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So I built good relationships there.
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But the senior executive team, they had asked me to come from TD Bank, move over to Sunlight
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to help them in their cloud and data analytics journey.
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So I made them move to Sunlight.
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Because I always had a really good experience working at that organization and with their
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people.
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It was just a really good environment.
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And so during Sunlight, I was there for about 14 months and we basically achieved everything
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we wanted to achieve in those 14 months.
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So it was a super accelerated journey there.
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I was speaking to some non-introductory or early on companies who were getting started
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with their cloud and data analytics journey at a conference and at an AWS conference.
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And one casual conversation led to another.
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And so one of those up and coming customers in the cloud space, they asked me if they
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basically offered me a role to lead data and analytics enterprise architecture and the corporate
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systems.
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It was a major telco here in Canada.
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And so I decided to take that senior leadership role at this telco.
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And I would say I spent about a year and a half there.
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It just wasn't the right role for me.
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It wasn't the right company for me.
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Let's just say that from a cultural perspective.
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And so I only spent a year and a half there.
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And from there, I went to a software company.
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I would, you know, a company that has its roots in Sweden.
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So I had a lot of my team members based in Europe.
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And that was a really good experience because I, at that company, I kind of reconnected with
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somebody that I used to work with at TD Bank.
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And so, you know, I jumped at the chance at the opportunity to work with this individual
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again just because I had such fond memories back when we were at the bank together.
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And so, you know, I was at the software company at click for about two years before I decided
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that, you know, it was time to, and I felt like I needed to be in a role that had more
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of an impact to society.
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So I decided to join a non-profit cancer data analytics company based out of Montreal, Canada.
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And you know, applying kind of what I've learned over the years into something that actually
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has a larger societal impact.
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And so I've been at that organization as their chief technology officer since September
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of 2003.
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And I'm still kind of a fractional CTO at that non-profit organization.
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But my focus right now is I lead the enterprise data services organization at Workday in California.
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Fantastic.
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Hello, Vajrani.
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Yes, yes, it has been.
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And one of the things that I'd love to ask, especially for someone like you who's had
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so many different roles, so many different experiences, is I guess what were your personal
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ways, sort of saw the time to settle down.
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Do you see each of the different roles that you have as individual sort of eras for lack
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of a better term?
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Or do you feel like they all have a sort of cumulative experience?
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I would say it's been a cumulative experience, but also it does follow like a certain pattern.
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So coming out of school, working and consulting, my first, so my first seven and a half years
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of my career at Accenture, I was part of the data center technologies and operations practice.
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So at that time, back in 2003, 2004, when I first started working at Accenture, that
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was the hype of what you call the virtualization era or trend.
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A lot of organizations were looking to reduce their physical footprint, whether it be in
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the data centers or server space, and VMware had come onto the scene, and it was definitely
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a trend I was picking up.
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But I would say I've worked mostly at Accenture, I've worked mostly outside of Canada, which
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was interesting, so I worked mostly in the US, Europe, Asia, and so a lot of the organizations
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that I was working with were my clients.
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They were all kind of going down that path of trying to virtualize everything.
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And then when I moved to Ernst & Young back in 2000 and end of 2010, early 2011, that
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was when cybersecurity started making a more pronounced kind of, there was more of a pronounced
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investment in cybersecurity at the time.
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And so that was another trend, which is why I also kind of like delved into the cybersecurity
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space.
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And then obviously, mergers and acquisitions, I've always been a part of the business landscape.
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And so I thought that was a great opportunity to kind of like up level and broaden my experience
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and skill set, which is why I ended up running ITM&A for the last two years in my career
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at Ernst & Young.
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But throughout this, data analytics, data science, that was kind of like the new trend
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that was coming on the scene.
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And so when I moved into the data analytics space at a TD Bank in 2016, that I think,
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again, it was like following a major trend in terms of like where the investments were
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going, where companies were kind of double down, double, doubling their investment in.
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And so I think my career so far has kind of followed a trend in terms of like what's
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emerging and what are the areas that are most important to organizations, but at the
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same time, also kind of like, from my own personal development, consulting like a great
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foundation for everything that I've done up to date.
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And then being in Canada, the major industries here, finance, insurance, healthcare, telco.
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So personally, it was trying to get exposed to those four major industries.
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Thorne-Froek, that obviously you say that data analytics is sort of a through line and
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then you have the sort of waves of virtual machines and then to collect cybersecurity.
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I'd love to talk to you a little bit about what is it that excites you right now in your
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field and what opportunities do you think will emerge from or challenges from that that
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will show up in your work so it worked there.
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I think the most exciting thing right now is basically generative AI, right?
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Like how generative AI will change the way we work, the types of work that existing teams
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will do in the future and it'll change the operating model of how teams function together
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within an organization, right?
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Though that's definitely top of mind for myself and my peers, whether they be in Workday or
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other organizations through my network.
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I think another exciting thing or something that organizations start thinking about is
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when it comes to generative AI, right?
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The output is only as good as the input that you provide.
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And so, you know, I think a lot of people in this current era, data science is the cool
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thing, right, the cool kid on the block, but I think what people fail to realize is that
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linguistics is actually equally important because if you're not able to articulate a
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problem statement or you're not able to articulate a question, right, different question, the
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way you ask a question kind of dictates the output that you're going to get.
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So if you don't ask a question in the right way, you might not get the response that you're
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expecting.
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So that, you know, linguistics, language, that all kind of dies or ties, ties to like
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the whole concept of prompt engineering, which has a huge play with GenAI.
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And then, you know, like I said, with GenAI, you know, how it'll affect operating models,
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right?
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There is, I think, more organizations will start to kind of look at how you operate with
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an organization, especially between the business functions and technology or IT, the whole
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discussion around centralized versus federated operating models or haven't spoke, like that
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type of conversation has always been a topic of discussion, but I think it's just going
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to be, I think it's just going to be a little more focused.
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I think it'll just be a little more kind of talked about as we move forward in this
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GenAI journey.
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One thing that's really fascinating to me is, you know, you mentioned prompt engineering.
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It's something that sounds so simple on the surface, but it's definitely quite interesting
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the fact that you write about the output that you did, that you did, that you did, the input
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that you give is the output that you get also.
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But it's a case of how do you even know what questions to ask if you don't know where to
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start, you know?
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Mm-hmm.
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What I was thinking from there is obviously the industry that you find yourself in, in
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terms of data analytics and the industry that you've been in, asked is, what questions
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do you think leaders should be asking themselves right now and what shifts do you think that
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it has for them to make?
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It doesn't have to necessarily be about generative AI.
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You know, as a leader and, you know, as I talk to my peers and other organizations in
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my network, a lot of the top of my questions right now is, do we have the right skills
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for the future, do we have the right balance of roles and functions between onshore and
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offshore, right?
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And when I say offshore, I don't necessarily mean, you know, contracting out to a third
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party.
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I mean, kind of actually setting up office locations and teams in lower cost geographies.
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Just because of like the whole macro economic situation, you know, a lot of organizations
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are starting to be very conscious of how they spend their budget when it comes to resourcing.
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And then how do we, how do we, how do we up our game around addressing privacy and security
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concerns as AI becomes more proliferated?
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And so I think those are, I think those are things that, at least for me, are kind of
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in the back of my mind, things that I think about on a regular basis.
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And then, you know, I think in terms of like what makes me tick, if you will, is, you know,
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I get really excited when, you know, I get, there is, I got, there is a, there is a,
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I don't even know how to describe it.
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I've had only a couple of experiences or where this has happened is, and I'll give you one
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example when I worked at Sunlight, we had, it was not a very, fairly large team, about
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150 people that was global across Canada, US, India and Ireland.
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And we all had, we all understood what the mission was.
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And so everything just, everything was just very smooth, like the way we worked together,
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the way we understood each other.
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We just worked well together by virtue of a lining on the mission.
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And so that, that is something that I, I kind of look for every chance I get is to get into
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that same mode, that same rhythm.
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And then, you know, another thing that really makes me tick is people, and watching people
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develop personally and professionally, right?
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Like it, it, it actually brings me kind of a lot of joy when I see people kind of moving
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profession, moving up in their, in their growth ladder, sort of saying, both on a personal
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and professional front.
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You know, I love it when people get recognized for the work.
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I think a lot of times, you know, I would even say for myself, I, I know it's, I'm not
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somebody who goes out and purposely tries to market the work that I do.
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I kind of am that type of individual that, you know, if you recognize the work, great.
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And if you don't, I'm not going to go out there and try to like make you, make you see
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it.
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I'm not, you know, I'm just trying to like let the work speak for itself.
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But sometimes I think you need that person who's going to kind of advocate for you and
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make sure that you get recognized for your work.
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But I love it when I, when I see people get them have that opportunity.
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And then I think another area is leading, you know, being able to lead the charge on
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work that addresses a gap.
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And so because I, from a working style perspective, I don't know, I personally don't like doing
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things for the sake of doing things.
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I like doing things because there's an actual purpose and objective and it's going to fulfill
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a particular gap.
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So I would say those four areas are definitely fantastic.
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And recognitions are really, really important.
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One yes, because it is like you say it's a fine balance between you don't want to pound
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it to every little action because that could be inherently demotivated in a sense, but
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you do want to recognize those big milestones when they do crop up when appropriate, which
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is really, really important.
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Awesome, and speaking of like the personal growth that you see in people, I love to talk
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a little bit about your own and talk about what advice that you would have for your junk
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itself, where you are today.
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There's, there's a couple of things that come to mind.
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You know, once one thing that I have learned over the years is don't, don't worry about
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the things that you have no control over.
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And I think early on in my career, because, you know, I was trying to, I was trying to
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make a name for myself and trying to be out there within the organization that I was at,
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especially in consulting, right?
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Consulting you have to kind of like kind of stand out above and beyond 100%, right?
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And so for me, what I learned though is like, if you start worrying about things that are
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out of your control, you kind of end up not accomplishing what you, what you're, you know,
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what you intended on accomplishing, right?
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And so like, if you focus on just the things that you, that you do have control over, I
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think it makes you more focused and it makes you more deliberate.
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And you realize that, you know, if you address that incrementally, you eventually get a lot
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more done.
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That's, that's definitely one piece of advice that I would have given myself earlier on,
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rather than, you know, the years that I took to figure that out.
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But, you know, also one thing that I, another thing that I wouldn't change about myself
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is I've always been very kind of like thoughtful in terms of my actions.
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And so, you know, measure twice, cut once, that's, so I would say I am a planner.
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But I also would say I'm not a, I'm not a, you know, I don't plan to the nth degree,
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right?
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Like I don't, I don't plan so, so much that I end up not taking action on anything.
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And so I think it's important to be thoughtful and important to make sure that you try to
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address as many risks before you take, before you execute on something.
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But I think being thoughtful about the work, but also about the impact that you have on
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the people that are going to be affected by the work.
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I think that is also super important in anybody's journey.
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And then the other thing is change through, you know, what I call change through example,
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I, I'm not, I would say I'm not like a, if I were a good teacher, I'd probably be a
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teacher, but I'm not a teacher.
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I, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not the, I'm, you know, if someone were to say we need somebody
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to teach a class on something, you know, I'm not going to be that person.
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I just don't have that particular trait within me.
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But what I do have is demonstrate, demonstrate like basically influencing by example.
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And so, you know, if I say, if I, I have like personal kind of like guidelines within my
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belief system.
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And so then I kind of, I, I, I, I share that through demonstrating through my actions on
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a daily basis.
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And, and, you know, I kind of just like a, I hope that when my teams see me act a certain
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way that they're going to also feel like they're, they should be comfortable to, to, to be more
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transparent and, and to take ownership and just basically leading to example.
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Really.
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Three really good points there.
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The one that I find that speaks to me the most was the idea of the two very first point
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where, you know, trying to control, trying to worry about things that you can't control
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necessarily because it leads you to that sort of, you know, stasis of like decision analysis
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where you just like, there's so many things that you can think about that nothing happens
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as a result.
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Yes.
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You get that sort of overcrowded sort of mentality.
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One final sort of question before we get into our quickfire questions of bringing it
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to sort of the wider scope and what you think for the future is when you look around the
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industries that you're in and working in the wider world that are in, what opportunities
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do you see to really reinvent the way that things are done?
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What I would say is something that I don't see as like, I would say is game changing,
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but I wouldn't say as innovative.
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And so what I would, my answer to your question is really around if organizations, and of
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course this is easier said than done, right?
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Because some of the, like some of the organizations are like so, so, so large and so set in their
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ways that this would be a very difficult task.
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But I think if organizations all kind of took a look inside of themselves and made a very
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made an investment into process optimization, into looking at the way, at how they operate
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internally today.
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And you know, and then figure it out, made the investment and put the time and effort
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into revisiting how they work today and how they could potentially optimize or, you know,
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optimize the process, remove duplicate steps, that type of stuff.
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I think that that would go a long way in terms of finding efficiencies, both from a resource
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perspective and from a cost perspective in the long run.
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You know, I studied industrial engineering at the University of Toronto and so process
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optimization was always part of like the curriculum as an industrial engineer.
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And so, you know, you process optimization has always been something that has been front
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of mind of like manufacturing companies, right?
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This is how you got into like the whole, all the concepts around like Six Sigma methodology,
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right?
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And finding ways to make things better all the time, right?
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It's not just fine, it's not just process optimization at one, within a year, it's process
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optimization from now to end of life, right?
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Perpetual.
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And so I think if organizations put the time and money into starting that type of like initiative
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and then maintaining that initiative, I think there would be a lot of benefits that one
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would experience from that.
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But I think it's, you know, it's like I said, easier said than done, because it does take
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a lot of time and a lot of like commitment to kind of focus on that particular area.
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But another thing, process optimization, another reason why it is hard to do, it is also because
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it's tied to human behavior.
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And that's another aspect of like another area where organizations I believe are struggling,
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some organization are struggling.
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And I don't know if you've ever come across this author by the name of Patrick Lanzioni,
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he is the author of the five dysfunctions of a high performing team, right?
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And so when you have those dysfunctions of an organization that are prevalent, that's
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always going to impact the ability to optimize processes because the human behavior set of
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things kind of takes over, right?
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Like the lack of trust, the lack of accountability, the avoidance of like conflict, like those
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type of things will prevent the organization's ability to kind of really dig down, dig deep
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into looking at where can we improve?
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Because it ultimately will have an impact on people's roles and how people do things.
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But you know, I think it is kind of a chicken and an egg thing.
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I mean, I know that you said that it's not necessarily like a super innovative thing,
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but it's definitely a thing that's really important.
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And definitely something that's a unique answer for this podcast because it's something that's
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again, can be seen as deceptively simple, but it's something that everything really
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needs to be pointed to board.
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Yeah, for sure.
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It's not a technology problem, right?
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Like technology, I think is like, you know, 25, 30% of the problem of the puzzle, right?
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The larger proportion of the challenges related to people and in process.
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And that's a wonderful place to leave it for those main questions, but we'll get some,
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maybe hopefully fun ones in terms of the quick fire questions.
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So we'll kick it straight off.
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Could your friends explain what it is that you do?
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Some of them, the ones who have been in this type of industry themselves.
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Yeah, I would say only some of them.
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And what would you want them to say if so?
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What I want them to say.
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I mean, you know, I think there's like, there's an acronym that I've always, there's an acronym
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that I actually have inscribed in the inside of my wallet.
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And it's a three letters GSD and it's get stuff done.
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And so where, you know, you can replace the S with the other four letter word, but that's
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something that, you know, I would want, that's something that I would want people to say
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about me, but also I think people already do say about me as, you know, if you need
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something fixed, if there's a crisis or if you just need something done, you know, they
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think of my name.
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You've given a lot of really great advice over this last sort of half an hour or so,
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but what's the best piece of advice that you yourself have ever been given?
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I mean, I think it goes back to the thing about, you know, worry about the things you
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can control, but you know, I'm going to also kind of introduce another four letter acronym
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here called TOEFU, which is take ownership follow up.
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And so if you're going to, you're going to take accountability for something, like make
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sure you see it through and you drive it to the ground rather than kind of like half
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assing the effort, you know, you either do it or you don't do it.
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On a scale of one to 10, and this is the last question, by the way.
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This is something we always ask everyone.
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So Buckle in on a scale of one to 10, 10 being the most, how weird are you Winston?
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I would say about seven to eight.
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You know, I'm pretty self aware.
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I'm pretty self aware and I've always been since I was, you know, younger.
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So yeah, I have quirks about me.
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You know, I have OCD tendencies.
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I probably, I was never like formally diagnosed when I was younger, but I'm sure, you know,
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I have a bit of ADHD and so yeah, I definitely have like tendencies that would be classified
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as weird.
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I don't know that I would classify as weird.
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That's a solid number and the sole place to leave it.
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So thank you so much for your time Winston.
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I do really appreciate it, but it's been a real pleasure talking, well, meeting you and
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talking to you.
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Like my church.
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Thank you.
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As we close out another episode, make sure to like, subscribe and follow us on our social
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channels.
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If you want to access label sessions for your brand, whether you want to build new products,
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access world class mentors for your team or reinvent the way you attract talent into your
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business, visit label sessions to find out more.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,960
Hello and welcome to the Label Sessions Presents Podcast.
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00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:14,280
Label Sessions is the world's leading innovation expert network.
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00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,520
In this series you will meet some of the most interesting leaders anywhere, from across the
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00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,920
world's business, design, tech, culture and sustainability.
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00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,200
All signed to the Label Sessions roster.
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00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:30,280
To find out more about our work, helping brands and institutions around the world take on
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their big challenges for the future, head to LabelSessions.com to find out more.
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For now, enjoy the podcast.
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Once again, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and talk to me.
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I do appreciate it.
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We know you as somebody who's a CIO, CTO, all those wonderful acronyms.
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But I feel like you could best introduce yourself to kick this off.
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I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about your story, your work and where it takes you
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to today.
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Thanks, Josh.
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I studied engineering at the University of Toronto.
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Upon graduation, I worked in the consulting industry, technology consulting with Accenture.
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I was at Accenture for about seven and a half years.
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Great experience, got to travel the world.
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I was on the road 285 hotel nights a year for seven years straight.
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That was interesting.
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I got the travel bug during engineering when I did a one-year co-op term and I got to work
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in Korea and Amsterdam.
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I thought this was a great opportunity to travel more and be in tech.
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Was Accenture for seven and a half years?
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I decided I needed to settle down.
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I went to another consulting firm at Ernst & Young.
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I was there for about five and a half years, still traveled, just not as much.
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Wanted to get into, move away from the large program transformation type work into more
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CIO advisory work, tech strategy, that type of stuff.
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I was there for about five and a half years.
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My last two years at Ernst & Young, I did a lot of IT, M&A work for transaction advisory
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services.
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Representing buyer side or seller side.
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But still on the tech side of things.
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On a personal front, I got married, I had one child, it was time to settle down and get
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off the road.
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I went to financial services, I went to industry.
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One of the largest banks in Canada, TD Bank.
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That was back in 2016 when I got my introduction to the data and analytics space.
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I was there for about two and a half years.
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And then there was a major life insurance company here in Canada, Sunlight Financial.
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They used to be a client of mine when I was consulting.
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So they thought, we had built a great relationship throughout the years as a consultant client
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type partnership.
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So I built good relationships there.
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But the senior executive team, they had asked me to come from TD Bank, move over to Sunlight
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to help them in their cloud and data analytics journey.
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So I made them move to Sunlight.
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Because I always had a really good experience working at that organization and with their
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people.
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It was just a really good environment.
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And so during Sunlight, I was there for about 14 months and we basically achieved everything
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we wanted to achieve in those 14 months.
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So it was a super accelerated journey there.
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I was speaking to some non-introductory or early on companies who were getting started
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with their cloud and data analytics journey at a conference and at an AWS conference.
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And one casual conversation led to another.
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And so one of those up and coming customers in the cloud space, they asked me if they
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basically offered me a role to lead data and analytics enterprise architecture and the corporate
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systems.
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It was a major telco here in Canada.
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And so I decided to take that senior leadership role at this telco.
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And I would say I spent about a year and a half there.
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It just wasn't the right role for me.
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It wasn't the right company for me.
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Let's just say that from a cultural perspective.
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And so I only spent a year and a half there.
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And from there, I went to a software company.
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I would, you know, a company that has its roots in Sweden.
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So I had a lot of my team members based in Europe.
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And that was a really good experience because I, at that company, I kind of reconnected with
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somebody that I used to work with at TD Bank.
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And so, you know, I jumped at the chance at the opportunity to work with this individual
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again just because I had such fond memories back when we were at the bank together.
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And so, you know, I was at the software company at click for about two years before I decided
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that, you know, it was time to, and I felt like I needed to be in a role that had more
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of an impact to society.
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So I decided to join a non-profit cancer data analytics company based out of Montreal, Canada.
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And you know, applying kind of what I've learned over the years into something that actually
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has a larger societal impact.
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And so I've been at that organization as their chief technology officer since September
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of 2003.
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And I'm still kind of a fractional CTO at that non-profit organization.
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But my focus right now is I lead the enterprise data services organization at Workday in California.
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Fantastic.
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Hello, Vajrani.
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Yes, yes, it has been.
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And one of the things that I'd love to ask, especially for someone like you who's had
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so many different roles, so many different experiences, is I guess what were your personal
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ways, sort of saw the time to settle down.
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Do you see each of the different roles that you have as individual sort of eras for lack
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of a better term?
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Or do you feel like they all have a sort of cumulative experience?
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I would say it's been a cumulative experience, but also it does follow like a certain pattern.
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So coming out of school, working and consulting, my first, so my first seven and a half years
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of my career at Accenture, I was part of the data center technologies and operations practice.
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So at that time, back in 2003, 2004, when I first started working at Accenture, that
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was the hype of what you call the virtualization era or trend.
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A lot of organizations were looking to reduce their physical footprint, whether it be in
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the data centers or server space, and VMware had come onto the scene, and it was definitely
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a trend I was picking up.
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But I would say I've worked mostly at Accenture, I've worked mostly outside of Canada, which
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was interesting, so I worked mostly in the US, Europe, Asia, and so a lot of the organizations
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that I was working with were my clients.
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They were all kind of going down that path of trying to virtualize everything.
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And then when I moved to Ernst & Young back in 2000 and end of 2010, early 2011, that
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was when cybersecurity started making a more pronounced kind of, there was more of a pronounced
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investment in cybersecurity at the time.
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And so that was another trend, which is why I also kind of like delved into the cybersecurity
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space.
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And then obviously, mergers and acquisitions, I've always been a part of the business landscape.
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And so I thought that was a great opportunity to kind of like up level and broaden my experience
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and skill set, which is why I ended up running ITM&A for the last two years in my career
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at Ernst & Young.
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But throughout this, data analytics, data science, that was kind of like the new trend
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that was coming on the scene.
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And so when I moved into the data analytics space at a TD Bank in 2016, that I think,
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again, it was like following a major trend in terms of like where the investments were
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going, where companies were kind of double down, double, doubling their investment in.
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And so I think my career so far has kind of followed a trend in terms of like what's
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emerging and what are the areas that are most important to organizations, but at the
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same time, also kind of like, from my own personal development, consulting like a great
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foundation for everything that I've done up to date.
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And then being in Canada, the major industries here, finance, insurance, healthcare, telco.
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So personally, it was trying to get exposed to those four major industries.
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Thorne-Froek, that obviously you say that data analytics is sort of a through line and
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then you have the sort of waves of virtual machines and then to collect cybersecurity.
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I'd love to talk to you a little bit about what is it that excites you right now in your
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field and what opportunities do you think will emerge from or challenges from that that
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will show up in your work so it worked there.
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I think the most exciting thing right now is basically generative AI, right?
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Like how generative AI will change the way we work, the types of work that existing teams
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will do in the future and it'll change the operating model of how teams function together
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within an organization, right?
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Though that's definitely top of mind for myself and my peers, whether they be in Workday or
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other organizations through my network.
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I think another exciting thing or something that organizations start thinking about is
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when it comes to generative AI, right?
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The output is only as good as the input that you provide.
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And so, you know, I think a lot of people in this current era, data science is the cool
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thing, right, the cool kid on the block, but I think what people fail to realize is that
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linguistics is actually equally important because if you're not able to articulate a
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problem statement or you're not able to articulate a question, right, different question, the
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way you ask a question kind of dictates the output that you're going to get.
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So if you don't ask a question in the right way, you might not get the response that you're
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expecting.
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So that, you know, linguistics, language, that all kind of dies or ties, ties to like
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the whole concept of prompt engineering, which has a huge play with GenAI.
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And then, you know, like I said, with GenAI, you know, how it'll affect operating models,
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right?
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There is, I think, more organizations will start to kind of look at how you operate with
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an organization, especially between the business functions and technology or IT, the whole
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discussion around centralized versus federated operating models or haven't spoke, like that
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type of conversation has always been a topic of discussion, but I think it's just going
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to be, I think it's just going to be a little more focused.
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I think it'll just be a little more kind of talked about as we move forward in this
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GenAI journey.
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One thing that's really fascinating to me is, you know, you mentioned prompt engineering.
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It's something that sounds so simple on the surface, but it's definitely quite interesting
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the fact that you write about the output that you did, that you did, that you did, the input
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that you give is the output that you get also.
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But it's a case of how do you even know what questions to ask if you don't know where to
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start, you know?
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Mm-hmm.
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What I was thinking from there is obviously the industry that you find yourself in, in
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terms of data analytics and the industry that you've been in, asked is, what questions
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do you think leaders should be asking themselves right now and what shifts do you think that
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it has for them to make?
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It doesn't have to necessarily be about generative AI.
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You know, as a leader and, you know, as I talk to my peers and other organizations in
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my network, a lot of the top of my questions right now is, do we have the right skills
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for the future, do we have the right balance of roles and functions between onshore and
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offshore, right?
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And when I say offshore, I don't necessarily mean, you know, contracting out to a third
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party.
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I mean, kind of actually setting up office locations and teams in lower cost geographies.
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Just because of like the whole macro economic situation, you know, a lot of organizations
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are starting to be very conscious of how they spend their budget when it comes to resourcing.
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And then how do we, how do we, how do we up our game around addressing privacy and security
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concerns as AI becomes more proliferated?
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And so I think those are, I think those are things that, at least for me, are kind of
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in the back of my mind, things that I think about on a regular basis.
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And then, you know, I think in terms of like what makes me tick, if you will, is, you know,
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I get really excited when, you know, I get, there is, I got, there is a, there is a,
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I don't even know how to describe it.
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I've had only a couple of experiences or where this has happened is, and I'll give you one
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example when I worked at Sunlight, we had, it was not a very, fairly large team, about
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150 people that was global across Canada, US, India and Ireland.
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And we all had, we all understood what the mission was.
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And so everything just, everything was just very smooth, like the way we worked together,
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the way we understood each other.
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We just worked well together by virtue of a lining on the mission.
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And so that, that is something that I, I kind of look for every chance I get is to get into
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that same mode, that same rhythm.
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And then, you know, another thing that really makes me tick is people, and watching people
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develop personally and professionally, right?
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Like it, it, it actually brings me kind of a lot of joy when I see people kind of moving
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profession, moving up in their, in their growth ladder, sort of saying, both on a personal
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and professional front.
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You know, I love it when people get recognized for the work.
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I think a lot of times, you know, I would even say for myself, I, I know it's, I'm not
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somebody who goes out and purposely tries to market the work that I do.
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I kind of am that type of individual that, you know, if you recognize the work, great.
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And if you don't, I'm not going to go out there and try to like make you, make you see
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it.
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I'm not, you know, I'm just trying to like let the work speak for itself.
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But sometimes I think you need that person who's going to kind of advocate for you and
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make sure that you get recognized for your work.
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But I love it when I, when I see people get them have that opportunity.
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And then I think another area is leading, you know, being able to lead the charge on
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work that addresses a gap.
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And so because I, from a working style perspective, I don't know, I personally don't like doing
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things for the sake of doing things.
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I like doing things because there's an actual purpose and objective and it's going to fulfill
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a particular gap.
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So I would say those four areas are definitely fantastic.
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And recognitions are really, really important.
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One yes, because it is like you say it's a fine balance between you don't want to pound
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it to every little action because that could be inherently demotivated in a sense, but
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you do want to recognize those big milestones when they do crop up when appropriate, which
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is really, really important.
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Awesome, and speaking of like the personal growth that you see in people, I love to talk
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a little bit about your own and talk about what advice that you would have for your junk
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itself, where you are today.
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There's, there's a couple of things that come to mind.
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You know, once one thing that I have learned over the years is don't, don't worry about
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the things that you have no control over.
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And I think early on in my career, because, you know, I was trying to, I was trying to
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make a name for myself and trying to be out there within the organization that I was at,
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especially in consulting, right?
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Consulting you have to kind of like kind of stand out above and beyond 100%, right?
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And so for me, what I learned though is like, if you start worrying about things that are
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out of your control, you kind of end up not accomplishing what you, what you're, you know,
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what you intended on accomplishing, right?
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And so like, if you focus on just the things that you, that you do have control over, I
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think it makes you more focused and it makes you more deliberate.
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And you realize that, you know, if you address that incrementally, you eventually get a lot
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more done.
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That's, that's definitely one piece of advice that I would have given myself earlier on,
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rather than, you know, the years that I took to figure that out.
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But, you know, also one thing that I, another thing that I wouldn't change about myself
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is I've always been very kind of like thoughtful in terms of my actions.
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And so, you know, measure twice, cut once, that's, so I would say I am a planner.
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But I also would say I'm not a, I'm not a, you know, I don't plan to the nth degree,
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right?
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Like I don't, I don't plan so, so much that I end up not taking action on anything.
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And so I think it's important to be thoughtful and important to make sure that you try to
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address as many risks before you take, before you execute on something.
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But I think being thoughtful about the work, but also about the impact that you have on
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the people that are going to be affected by the work.
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I think that is also super important in anybody's journey.
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And then the other thing is change through, you know, what I call change through example,
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I, I'm not, I would say I'm not like a, if I were a good teacher, I'd probably be a
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teacher, but I'm not a teacher.
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I, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not the, I'm, you know, if someone were to say we need somebody
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to teach a class on something, you know, I'm not going to be that person.
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I just don't have that particular trait within me.
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But what I do have is demonstrate, demonstrate like basically influencing by example.
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And so, you know, if I say, if I, I have like personal kind of like guidelines within my
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belief system.
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And so then I kind of, I, I, I, I share that through demonstrating through my actions on
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a daily basis.
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And, and, you know, I kind of just like a, I hope that when my teams see me act a certain
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way that they're going to also feel like they're, they should be comfortable to, to, to be more
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transparent and, and to take ownership and just basically leading to example.
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Really.
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Three really good points there.
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The one that I find that speaks to me the most was the idea of the two very first point
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where, you know, trying to control, trying to worry about things that you can't control
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necessarily because it leads you to that sort of, you know, stasis of like decision analysis
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where you just like, there's so many things that you can think about that nothing happens
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as a result.
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Yes.
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You get that sort of overcrowded sort of mentality.
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One final sort of question before we get into our quickfire questions of bringing it
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to sort of the wider scope and what you think for the future is when you look around the
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industries that you're in and working in the wider world that are in, what opportunities
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do you see to really reinvent the way that things are done?
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What I would say is something that I don't see as like, I would say is game changing,
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but I wouldn't say as innovative.
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And so what I would, my answer to your question is really around if organizations, and of
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course this is easier said than done, right?
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Because some of the, like some of the organizations are like so, so, so large and so set in their
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ways that this would be a very difficult task.
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But I think if organizations all kind of took a look inside of themselves and made a very
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made an investment into process optimization, into looking at the way, at how they operate
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internally today.
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And you know, and then figure it out, made the investment and put the time and effort
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into revisiting how they work today and how they could potentially optimize or, you know,
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optimize the process, remove duplicate steps, that type of stuff.
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I think that that would go a long way in terms of finding efficiencies, both from a resource
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perspective and from a cost perspective in the long run.
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You know, I studied industrial engineering at the University of Toronto and so process
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optimization was always part of like the curriculum as an industrial engineer.
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And so, you know, you process optimization has always been something that has been front
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of mind of like manufacturing companies, right?
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This is how you got into like the whole, all the concepts around like Six Sigma methodology,
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right?
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And finding ways to make things better all the time, right?
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It's not just fine, it's not just process optimization at one, within a year, it's process
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optimization from now to end of life, right?
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Perpetual.
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And so I think if organizations put the time and money into starting that type of like initiative
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and then maintaining that initiative, I think there would be a lot of benefits that one
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would experience from that.
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But I think it's, you know, it's like I said, easier said than done, because it does take
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a lot of time and a lot of like commitment to kind of focus on that particular area.
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But another thing, process optimization, another reason why it is hard to do, it is also because
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it's tied to human behavior.
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And that's another aspect of like another area where organizations I believe are struggling,
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some organization are struggling.
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And I don't know if you've ever come across this author by the name of Patrick Lanzioni,
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he is the author of the five dysfunctions of a high performing team, right?
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And so when you have those dysfunctions of an organization that are prevalent, that's
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always going to impact the ability to optimize processes because the human behavior set of
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things kind of takes over, right?
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Like the lack of trust, the lack of accountability, the avoidance of like conflict, like those
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type of things will prevent the organization's ability to kind of really dig down, dig deep
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into looking at where can we improve?
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Because it ultimately will have an impact on people's roles and how people do things.
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But you know, I think it is kind of a chicken and an egg thing.
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I mean, I know that you said that it's not necessarily like a super innovative thing,
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but it's definitely a thing that's really important.
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And definitely something that's a unique answer for this podcast because it's something that's
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again, can be seen as deceptively simple, but it's something that everything really
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needs to be pointed to board.
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Yeah, for sure.
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It's not a technology problem, right?
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Like technology, I think is like, you know, 25, 30% of the problem of the puzzle, right?
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The larger proportion of the challenges related to people and in process.
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And that's a wonderful place to leave it for those main questions, but we'll get some,
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maybe hopefully fun ones in terms of the quick fire questions.
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So we'll kick it straight off.
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Could your friends explain what it is that you do?
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Some of them, the ones who have been in this type of industry themselves.
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Yeah, I would say only some of them.
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And what would you want them to say if so?
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What I want them to say.
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I mean, you know, I think there's like, there's an acronym that I've always, there's an acronym
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that I actually have inscribed in the inside of my wallet.
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And it's a three letters GSD and it's get stuff done.
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And so where, you know, you can replace the S with the other four letter word, but that's
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something that, you know, I would want, that's something that I would want people to say
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about me, but also I think people already do say about me as, you know, if you need
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something fixed, if there's a crisis or if you just need something done, you know, they
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think of my name.
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You've given a lot of really great advice over this last sort of half an hour or so,
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but what's the best piece of advice that you yourself have ever been given?
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I mean, I think it goes back to the thing about, you know, worry about the things you
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can control, but you know, I'm going to also kind of introduce another four letter acronym
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here called TOEFU, which is take ownership follow up.
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And so if you're going to, you're going to take accountability for something, like make
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sure you see it through and you drive it to the ground rather than kind of like half
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assing the effort, you know, you either do it or you don't do it.
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On a scale of one to 10, and this is the last question, by the way.
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This is something we always ask everyone.
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So Buckle in on a scale of one to 10, 10 being the most, how weird are you Winston?
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I would say about seven to eight.
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You know, I'm pretty self aware.
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I'm pretty self aware and I've always been since I was, you know, younger.
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So yeah, I have quirks about me.
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You know, I have OCD tendencies.
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I probably, I was never like formally diagnosed when I was younger, but I'm sure, you know,
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I have a bit of ADHD and so yeah, I definitely have like tendencies that would be classified
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as weird.
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I don't know that I would classify as weird.
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That's a solid number and the sole place to leave it.
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So thank you so much for your time Winston.
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I do really appreciate it, but it's been a real pleasure talking, well, meeting you and
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talking to you.
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Like my church.
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Thank you.
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As we close out another episode, make sure to like, subscribe and follow us on our social
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