OM DENNE EPISODE
October 1, 2025
Death by Civics
A Conversation with Joel Westheimer About the Role of Education in Democratic Life
Suppose you wanted young people to develop a commitment to democracy, particularly at a time when it's under assault. How would you do that? Not by creating a school culture in which following the rules is valued more than critical thinking. And not by offering conventional civics courses with mind-numbing recitations of facts about how government is supposed to work. There's a big difference between teaching about a country's political system (or even about democracy), on the one hand, and preparing students to be active participants in a democratic society, on the other. This extended episode of Kohn's Zone features a lively conversation with educator Joel Westheimer, a professor at the University of Ottawa, who reflects on how even young children, with their natural concern about fairness, can be helped to reflect on democracy. But at what point does the promotion of democratic values shade into indoctrination? Conversely, when does a commitment to valuing multiple perspectives lapse into relativism? And is progressive teaching sufficient, or even necessary, for developing a commitment to democratic ideals?
RESOURCES:
Joel Westheimer, What Kind of Citizen?: Educating Our Children for the Common Good, rev. ed. (Teachers College Press, 2024)
Joel Westheimer, ed., Pledging Allegiance: The Politics of Patriotism in America's Schools (Teachers College Press, 2007)
A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution -- ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I'd be grateful if you'd support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Oh, and if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. Also, if you have feedback about the episode you've just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.
Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).
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PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn
Death by Civics
A Conversation with Joel Westheimer About the Role of Education in Democratic Life
Suppose you wanted young people to develop a commitment to democracy, particularly at a time when it's under assault. How would you do that? Not by creating a school culture in which following the rules is valued more than critical thinking. And not by offering conventional civics courses with mind-numbing recitations of facts about how government is supposed to work. There's a big difference between teaching about a country's political system (or even about democracy), on the one hand, and preparing students to be active participants in a democratic society, on the other. This extended episode of Kohn's Zone features a lively conversation with educator Joel Westheimer, a professor at the University of Ottawa, who reflects on how even young children, with their natural concern about fairness, can be helped to reflect on democracy. But at what point does the promotion of democratic values shade into indoctrination? Conversely, when does a commitment to valuing multiple perspectives lapse into relativism? And is progressive teaching sufficient, or even necessary, for developing a commitment to democratic ideals?
RESOURCES:
Joel Westheimer, What Kind of Citizen?: Educating Our Children for the Common Good, rev. ed. (Teachers College Press, 2024)
Joel Westheimer, ed., Pledging Allegiance: The Politics of Patriotism in America's Schools (Teachers College Press, 2007)
A note from Alfie Kohn:
I made two decisions when I decided to start this podcast. The first was not to accept ads. The second was to avoid putting certain episodes behind a paywall (or offering special content only to those who pay). But this means that I depend on the generosity of everyone who listens to help cover the production costs. So: Can you afford a modest contribution -- ideally on a regular basis, since a podcast, after all, is not a one-shot event? If so, I'd be grateful if you'd support the project with whatever amount seems fair to you. (Your generosity will also confirm the thesis of my book The Brighter Side of Human Nature.)
Oh, and if you enjoy the podcast, please tell other people about it. Also, if you have feedback about the episode you've just listened to, send it to https://www.alfiekohn.org/contact-us/.
Please click the button below to donate.
If you don’t see a button, please go to this page (https://coff.ee/kohnszone).
Donate
PRODUCTION SUPPORT: Ultraviolet Audio
ART: Abi Kohn
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USA
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