Featuring: Jonathan Fisk Bulette

WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to Journey Lines, the podcast answering the question, how did they get there?
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I'm your host, Kim Minnick.
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Every episode, I invite a guest to complete a reflective exercise where they plot the ups and downs of their career against a line of neutrality.
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Together, we explore the highs, lows, and everything in between.
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With me today, Jonathan Buellette.
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Jonathan, how are you today?
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Hello, Kim.
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I'm doing really, really well.
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It's an honor to be here.
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I am so excited to have you here.
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This has been, what, six months in the making now, so pretty pumped.
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Before we dive into your journey line, I'll ask you the question I ask everyone.
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What you got going on these days, personally, professionally, holistically, what's happening?
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Yep.
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well, I'll start with this reflection, which is, it's pretty cool to be in this moment where, you know, I have a startup and you have a podcast and we're here actually together recording this.
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so one thing is just to reflect on, that.
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it's a really, it's a wonderful experience to be here.
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And, I'm just so proud of you for what you've done.
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Thank you.
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For listeners, Jonathan and I worked together at my last full-time in-house job.
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I think we fired each other at some point in the...
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Yeah.
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I don't know.
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I don't know.
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Yeah.
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That's funny.
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Yeah.
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Well you have got quite the journey.
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no you didn't even say what's going on these days you've got a start up.
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start.
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I'll start with that.
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So personally, professionally, holistically, personally, I live in Santa Monica with my incredible wife.
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We've been married for over 10 years and our relationship gets better and better.
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And we have two kids, a boy named Rex, who's eight and a daughter who is two and her name is Polina.
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And Rex is really into basketball.
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Polina is a handful.
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She's really into healing.
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she, like yesterday, she insisted on me laying down as we're trying to get ready to go to school, put a blanket over me and then put Band-Aids on my nose.
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healing like a future doctor.
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That's totally what I was thinking.
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Yeah, she's got that.
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really thought you meant healing, like how my dog heals on a walk.
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And I was like, what?
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that's funny.
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You know, there was a previous listener was talking about, or previous guest was talking about a backpack with a leash and being judged.
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And we've not gone that far with Paulina.
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Yeah.
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it happens, you won't be alone.
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Well, I am so excited to dive into your journey line, quite possibly one of the most visually appealing journey lines we've had.
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Folks can check it out down in the comments.
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But why don't you kick us off?
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We've got a gorgeous tree, we've got some birds hanging out.
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Sure.
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Well, I'll say the first thing about the journey line is I was inspired by the thumbnail for the podcast.
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It has this like botanical element to it, which I really liked.
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And I was like, that's beautiful.
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I really like that.
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And so then I thought about, so if I was going to use a botanical element, what would I choose?
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What would be meaningful to me?
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And I came up with this motif of a tree and in particular, the tree in the journey line.
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is the first thing that came to my mind was a sycamore tree that was on a farm that my dad grew up on near the Delaware River in Pennsylvania.
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And as I mentioned in the journey line, his cousin controversially sold the farm to a quarry and so the tree and the farm is no more.
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So now it kind of lives on as a kind of, I don't know, a tree in my imagination.
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And so.
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That was the sort of anchoring point is sort of like a deep origin, I guess you could say.
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I have my parents in the tree, Jane and John, and my younger sister, Emily, is in the tree.
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And I decided to start in college.
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I attended Bucknell University.
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I, let's see, I came across a, I was working as a projectionist.
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Like in a movie theater?
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Yeah, yeah, it was like a screening series.
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And so it was like a campus job.
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And it was like a foreign film and strange documentary screening series, and really fun.
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it was like screening 35 millimeter prints, which is like a crazy thing to be doing at any time, especially.
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I mean, now almost unheard of, but even at that time, it was like really rare and unusual prints.
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And, and I had no idea what I was going to put on, right.
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So would show up, take the reels.
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thread them through the machine, turn it on.
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And this film came on called Atomic Cafe, which was made in the eighties.
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And it is all like found media kind of archive.
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So there's no narration.
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All the music comes from period sources.
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And it sort of tells the story of the atomic era of the United States in the 1950s.
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All the kind of like old duck and cover public service announcements and things like that.
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And it just sort of kind of shows you the cultural fabric of the country when we were living under the specter of the Cold War and the threat of atomic annihilation, primarily through the lens of kids.
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And it's a wild film.
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And I was totally transfixed by it.
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I'd never seen anything like that.
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And afterwards, I just I was in like a spell and I just fell in love with the power of storytelling.
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and how transporting it can be to put somebody in a mood or in a spell like that.
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So this really kicks off like, because what I know about you is a person who genuinely tells great stories and is wonderful at it.
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And I feel like this is such an amazing kickoff.
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you, this is a silly question, were you actually like changing the reels as they ran out?
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I feel like that's very romantic cinema stuff.
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Yeah, there's like, you have to watch in the upper right hand corner of the frame and there's a little like white dot.
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And so it starts off big and then it kind of gets smaller and you have to be ready with the second reel to like switch it over.
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Yeah.
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I wonder how often that happens these days, probably rarely.
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fun fact, it's not really that fun, but it is a fact at another screening where I was, let's say, like less attentive in my duties.
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was we were screening Toy Story and I started the second reel first and then just didn't like I didn't.
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Yeah, it was like, that's weird.
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I don't remember the movie starting this way anyway.
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So that's right, halfway through.
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Well, speaking of maybe some mistakes at this job, you kind of, you start your journey line out with a little bit of a drop because you got, did you get suspended?
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What did you do?
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Yes.
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It's interesting.
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So the one of the things that's incredible about creating a journey line is you make discoveries about your own life as you're doing it.
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So I would sincerely recommend to people who are listening to the podcast and if you're listening to the podcast, you're thinking about your career and what your values are, what you might want to do next.
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think about what your story is to this date.
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If you go through the process of creating a journey line, it's very powerful.
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So I wanna thank you actually, Kim, for inviting me to do that.
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Because I made a lot of discoveries actually while I was working on this, it's true.
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I, it's rare I am speechless and I am so grateful for those words.
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But mostly I want to hear about why you got suspended from this job.
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the discovery that I made.
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So I thought it would be fun to pull fire alarms as like a prank, right?
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And so because everyone has to like leave the dorm and...
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Not thinking about obviously the deeper repercussions of this.
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This is not, I'm not like saying this like this, like in a glib way, like this is I'm super, yeah, it was a prank, right?
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and part of what I would do is, dress up like a ninja.
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and then like, like run down a hallway and do fake ninja moves and then like pull the fire alarm and then run away.
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And yeah.
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for you to perf- okay.
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So they're like, it's the fire alarm ninjas like struck again kind of thing.
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And at a certain point, I decided, like, this is the sort of thing where like you're in your own head in a kind of like way that is like kind of amusing, but also kind of self destructive.
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I was like, you know, it would be amazing is if the fire alarm ninja struck, like struck my own hallway.
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Like the irony of that isn't that incredible?
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take the heat off of you.
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No one would suspect! well, never they would never suspect who would why would you fire alarm your own your own your own hallway.
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So that's what I did.
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And when I did that, that fire alarm had a shot iodine all over the place.
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So it shot iodine all over my hands all over me.
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And we went out into the we went outside and public safety is there and I decide to start like, kind of like making a scene about who would have done this.
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You know, like, like, who was doing that?
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Yeah, who is doing this?
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This is outrageous.
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That sort of thing.
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Exactly.
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Excellent use of the word Tom foolery.
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That's exactly right.
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That's exactly right.
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Also to kind of throw off like, well, I mean, if he's if he's upset about it, it's not him.
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So And I had a friend there and she lent me some mittens.
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So I put like mittens on my hands.
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And as we were walking back, they actually made everybody show their hands on the way in.
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so I walked in and showed my hands with the mittens on my hands and went in.
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And not long after that, a couple of days after that, it wasn't right away, but a couple of days after that, it was actually on a Super Bowl Sunday.
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I got a knock on my door and it was public safety.
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And they asked me to come downtown, if you will, and ask some questions.
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yeah, don't, don't, tampering with public safety is, with fire safety equipment is really serious.
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You shouldn't do it.
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They don't like that.
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No, they really don't.
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you had to go to the police station?
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That feels like a- no, no.
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I mean, a euphemistic downtown, like I had to go down to the to the station, right, and be interrogated and all that sort of stuff.
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But yeah, I was so I was suspended from from school.
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And the discovery that I made is, you know, it was like I was I was literally pulling an alarm.
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Like it was a and I was like, that's so interesting.
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Like I was kind of sounding an alarm, I think, at that time in my life.
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Like I wasn't in the right place.
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You know, like I wasn't, I don't think I should have really been there in a certain sense.
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And that was sort of something that I was reflecting on.
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It does seem like a little maybe that Tom foolery was a little bit of a cry for help, right?
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Like I think that's right.
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So you get suspended.
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You're suspended from school.
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Like not just...
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You have to leave.
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You're not allowed to be in the dorms anymore.
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Where do you go?
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What do you do?
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Yeah.
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I moved back home.
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My parents are actually very supportive, which was really like highly fortunate.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Take a restaurant job, which actually turns out to be amazing.
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I get a job at this Argentinian restaurant.
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Waiting tables.
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learning about jazz.
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it was really, really cool.
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It's called Armando's and Armando was this, he was a former boxer from Argentina, a communist, and, taught me about Chet Baker and Miles Davis and, and, so that I started cross dressing too, which is kind of amazing when I was there.
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And then Armando started cross dressing and it was like this small town.
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It was just to mess with people's heads, you know, I love this.
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I imagine you and Armando just like trying to make people go, what?
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He was wearing big flowery moomoo's.
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I was more into like, yeah, I was doing like a sheer skirt at the time.
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Yeah, and it was really interesting because it was totally like a double it was like really a double take, you know, people would come in and then they would sit down and then it would like, Whoa, wow.
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Okay.
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Interesting.
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That's what's happening.
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I didn't intend to talk about any of this, by the way, on the podcast, but here we are.
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This is here we are and, yay, journey lines.
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So part of this, so you're in a restaurant, you're out of school, and you, this is labeled as number one because I think, you read Kubrick biography and you decide the only way to learn is on the job, not in school.
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What a revelation.
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Yeah.
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So and this was a big one.
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This is why I this is why I labeled it like, you know, an important moment.
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I read this biography of the filmmaker Stanley Kubrick.
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At the time, I was watching a lot of Kubrick films.
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And so the biography is it's like one of these giant super thick, like, you know, 700 page tomes.
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And he didn't go to film school.
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He was a photographer for newspaper in New York, kind of like dispatched to crime scenes.
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And he had, I think he graduated from high school and that was it, had no formal education.
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And I held him in very high and still do, but held him in very high esteem at the time.
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And I thought the lesson there that I took from the book and from his life was, You should learn by working, not by, not through academia.
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And this whole question of, of like getting advanced degrees or being, in the professional world has been like a kind of tension for me.
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And this certainly set me on a, on a path where I decided like I was going to only learn by doing not learn by.
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you know, getting a master's degree or a PhD, but even today, think like, what would have happened if, if in a parallel universe, if I would have gotten advanced degrees and, and gone down a different path.
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What did you originally go to school for?
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Like what path were you on in philosophy?
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Hmm, interesting.
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And clearly, like a PhD in philosophy is like you're only going to teach.
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And I didn't want to teach.
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I wanted to make things.
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Yeah, I did go back and I did finish my bachelor's degree.
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I did.
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Yeah.
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And the interesting thing is However, like when, when my sort of cohort was graduating, I didn't have enough credits to graduate.
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And, but at the same time, there was a, this opportunity came up in New York to take an internship on this, this, this big film.
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And they could only give the internship to people who needed college credit.
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And so that was the credit that I needed to graduate.
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And I couldn't have had the internship without that.
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And so it was like an interesting kind of surprise sort of Kismet.
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So I, you know, got in a car and drove through the night and ended up in Union Square for like a 6 a.m.
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call time and was, you know, working on a big motion picture.
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I mean, like any aspiring storyteller, head off to New York, head off to the big city.
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How great that you can take this internship.
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So you're there for the 6 a.m.
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call time.
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How's the internship go?
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How's the call time go?
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Well, I was exhausted when I showed up, And it was like this good luck.
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There's a 12 hour day ahead of you now.
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I had no idea what any of that was.
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It was crazy.
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It was a big movie at the time.
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Charlie Starrin was in it.
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Joaquin Phoenix, Mark Wahlberg, Faye Dunaway, James Kahn.
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It's a really big movie.
00:18:06.252 --> 00:18:08.253
My first assignment was...
00:18:08.738 --> 00:18:12.439
to get in a 12 passenger van with a Teamster.
00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:15.050
And we were shooting in New Jersey at the time.
00:18:15.050 --> 00:18:18.382
So they go through the Holland tunnel and we were shooting out in New Jersey.
00:18:18.781 --> 00:18:25.505
And I guess Faye Dunaway had like five cell phones and she needed one of the cell phones that she didn't have on set.
00:18:25.505 --> 00:18:38.849
So my first job was to get in a 12 pass van with a Teamster, come back into New York, into Manhattan, go into Faye Dunaway's apartment, find the cell phone that she needed.
00:18:38.912 --> 00:18:41.104
and then bring it back out again.
00:18:42.105 --> 00:18:45.640
And I thought like, this is kind of interesting.
00:18:46.208 --> 00:18:48.951
that is a wild first thing to do.
00:18:49.028 --> 00:18:56.307
I don't think a lot of people can say I've been in Faye Dunaway's apartment without her and did not get arrested over it.
00:18:58.721 --> 00:18:59.924
I don't think so.
00:18:59.924 --> 00:19:01.185
I don't think so.
00:19:01.907 --> 00:19:05.332
So I assume you crushed this internship.
00:19:06.175 --> 00:19:11.787
Yeah, yeah, it was it was I made a lot of friends and got a lot of advice.
00:19:12.248 --> 00:19:19.970
And but one thing I will say about it is so the film was produced by Miramax.
00:19:19.990 --> 00:19:25.891
And so this was the height of the Harvey Weinstein's power.
00:19:26.811 --> 00:19:34.473
And even so, I was like, obviously, 65 million layers away from from him.
00:19:34.473 --> 00:19:38.131
But Some of the people I was working with were not.
00:19:38.250 --> 00:19:53.015
And one of the things that I experienced was there was just a really weird kind of vibe where it was like, if Harvey was going to show up, like four or five different people would compete to order the pizza that he liked.
00:19:53.015 --> 00:20:00.757
So like there'd be like six different pizza deliveries showing up with like the exact right pizza for Harvey so they could bring it to him.
00:20:01.298 --> 00:20:03.317
And it was weird.
00:20:03.403 --> 00:20:04.084
It was weird.
00:20:04.084 --> 00:20:05.434
It was, it was bad, weird.
00:20:05.434 --> 00:20:07.295
It just felt bad and weird.
00:20:07.414 --> 00:20:09.395
And yeah, yeah.
00:20:09.395 --> 00:20:14.636
And I was again, like I saw him sometimes, but like I was not like in the orbit.
00:20:14.636 --> 00:20:20.709
was an intern, but I could still pick up that like there was something not right on some level.
00:20:20.709 --> 00:20:42.594
And I didn't know like, if it was, this is just what big movies are, or this is what the professional world is, but there was just something off and Obviously it wouldn't be till much, much, much later, 2018, I think, when like allegations started to come out about what was really going on in his orbit.
00:20:44.155 --> 00:20:52.942
But the advice that I had got from seasoned people who are working there was create your own stuff.
00:20:52.942 --> 00:20:54.964
Don't try to climb the ladder.
00:20:54.964 --> 00:20:57.145
Like make your own work.
00:20:58.087 --> 00:21:01.153
Yeah, don't just try to...
00:21:01.153 --> 00:21:04.954
get string jobs together and move up the ladder.
00:21:05.795 --> 00:21:15.678
And so that was when I had offers to do stuff after that and I didn't do it.
00:21:15.718 --> 00:21:21.829
And instead, I again, sort of taught myself screenwriting.
00:21:21.829 --> 00:21:31.432
I don't think very well, but I was like, yeah, yeah, I was like, I'm just gonna read all the books and I don't need, you know.
00:21:31.766 --> 00:21:36.347
I read a bunch of screenplays and then I wrote one.
00:21:39.628 --> 00:21:50.834
it was, it's embarking on something like that is, it's interesting.
00:21:50.834 --> 00:21:56.615
It's actually not that different from embarking on any kind of really ambitious thing where you don't know the outcome.
00:21:56.955 --> 00:21:59.517
It's like, sometimes it's really fun and exhilarating.
00:21:59.517 --> 00:22:01.357
Sometimes it's very frustrating.
00:22:01.357 --> 00:22:13.157
Oftentimes it's But I think the point in the journey line is I completed it.
00:22:13.397 --> 00:22:30.769
And there's actually a contact that I had made on the film who actually since then has gone on to create a media rights capital, which is like one of the biggest studios in the entertainment industry.
00:22:31.115 --> 00:22:37.810
He's a, but, but, you he, at that time we were, you know, we were intern buddies.
00:22:38.551 --> 00:22:43.115
and so I sent the screenplay out and didn't hear back.
00:22:43.115 --> 00:22:44.928
And then I got into my head about it.
00:22:44.928 --> 00:22:48.710
So, so I should just say, the sake of the story, I complete the screenplay.
00:22:48.810 --> 00:22:52.022
and this is like physical, you physically print the thing out.
00:22:52.683 --> 00:22:53.184
Yeah.
00:22:53.184 --> 00:22:54.884
It's like a hard copy.
00:22:54.965 --> 00:22:55.686
Yeah.
00:22:55.686 --> 00:22:56.696
It's a hard copy.
00:22:56.696 --> 00:22:58.439
It's not like you're emailing anything.
00:22:58.439 --> 00:23:00.160
It's like a hard copy.
00:23:00.215 --> 00:23:03.663
Go to Staples and like whatever, get the office supplies.
00:23:03.663 --> 00:23:07.986
satisfying moment holding your screenplay in your hand?
00:23:07.986 --> 00:23:08.601
Yeah.
00:23:08.601 --> 00:23:08.980
thick.
00:23:08.980 --> 00:23:13.232
was like thick and you know, was like a heavy thing, like a heavy object.
00:23:13.232 --> 00:23:14.173
Yes.
00:23:14.252 --> 00:23:16.134
And like a big padded envelope.
00:23:17.213 --> 00:23:19.724
And I don't know what exactly I expected to happen.
00:23:19.724 --> 00:23:28.898
I think I expected like some I expected something but in fact what happened was absolutely nothing.
00:23:28.898 --> 00:23:29.459
Nothing.
00:23:29.459 --> 00:23:32.800
just just nothing just sent it off and silence.
00:23:32.800 --> 00:23:36.034
I don't even know if the person I was sending it to received it.
00:23:36.034 --> 00:23:38.276
It's actually likely that they didn't ever receive it.
00:23:38.276 --> 00:23:43.460
Just it got like, you know, stuck in the mail room and they're like, who knows what this is.
00:23:43.820 --> 00:23:48.203
Yeah, just some unsolicited submission, you know?
00:23:49.766 --> 00:23:54.449
And I like, I got in my head about it.
00:23:54.449 --> 00:23:56.009
I didn't follow up.
00:23:56.111 --> 00:23:57.672
I didn't send it to anybody else.
00:23:57.672 --> 00:23:59.212
I was just like, well, that's it.
00:23:59.212 --> 00:24:00.359
That's it with that.
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:10.291
I'm the worst, this I didn't do it, all done, which explains why like you wrote on your journey line, it's high that you wrote it and then sent it in, never heard back.
00:24:11.374 --> 00:24:13.415
What would you have done differently?
00:24:14.258 --> 00:24:16.381
What would you have done anything differently now?
00:24:16.381 --> 00:24:18.911
Like hindsight is the greatest gift.
00:24:18.911 --> 00:24:19.411
Yeah.
00:24:19.411 --> 00:24:27.933
I mean, I would have I would have followed up and then made sure that the person read it or at least would like that it crossed their desk.
00:24:28.275 --> 00:24:31.236
Yeah, but I was I was so I was like, I was a kid.
00:24:31.435 --> 00:24:48.222
And I think I had this sense that like, it's such a naive, I think thing around creativity, where it's like, yeah, there's something so undeniably powerful about this that if like once someone like unwraps it and looks at it, they're just going to obviously think it's great or the opposite.
00:24:48.222 --> 00:24:49.452
They'll just think it's terrible.
00:24:49.452 --> 00:24:54.497
And so if you don't hear anything, then clearly it can't be that they didn't even look at it or something happened.
00:24:54.497 --> 00:24:58.278
It's just, it has to be a referendum on the creative object.
00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:00.400
Yeah.
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:02.211
And hated just despised it.
00:25:02.211 --> 00:25:02.652
Yeah.
00:25:02.652 --> 00:25:02.902
Yeah.
00:25:02.902 --> 00:25:03.180
Yeah.
00:25:03.180 --> 00:25:05.423
so much they could not even tell me.
00:25:08.585 --> 00:25:09.084
I get it.
00:25:09.084 --> 00:25:09.946
I get it though.
00:25:09.946 --> 00:25:16.763
Like you put stuff out into the universe and you're like if this is good, I will hear about it again.
00:25:16.844 --> 00:25:17.688
Mmm.
00:25:17.688 --> 00:25:18.948
place to be.
00:25:19.528 --> 00:25:27.612
It's such a vulnerable place to be to put so much time into something and then share it for any sort of feedback.
00:25:27.751 --> 00:25:42.718
It's really something that at the time I wasn't equipped to persevere, I think, the way that I would have needed to in that moment.
00:25:43.048 --> 00:25:45.905
Yeah, so what do you do from there?
00:25:48.082 --> 00:25:51.108
so I had some friends who were living in Boston.
00:25:51.108 --> 00:25:54.786
So I moved to Boston and yeah.
00:25:54.786 --> 00:25:57.500
and Boston's a fun little place.
00:25:57.500 --> 00:25:59.051
I just went there for the first time.
00:25:59.051 --> 00:26:00.042
ugh.
00:26:00.451 --> 00:26:02.791
we had a really fun little existence.
00:26:02.791 --> 00:26:09.654
lived in, we had this like top, top floor apartment in Brookline village, which is a very kind of cozy place.
00:26:11.817 --> 00:26:22.021
I got a job at a production company that did, in the, in the public television space, Boston has a big public television station, WGBH.
00:26:22.021 --> 00:26:24.884
And this was kind of like a feeder production company there.
00:26:25.084 --> 00:26:31.588
And I think I was also just thinking like, wow, feature film didn't feel that good.
00:26:32.613 --> 00:26:36.991
What is like, what is this public television documentaries?
00:26:36.991 --> 00:26:38.114
What is this world like?
00:26:38.114 --> 00:26:41.218
And so, yeah.
00:26:41.218 --> 00:26:43.531
film, public television.
00:26:43.531 --> 00:26:47.383
Yeah, they are hugely different.
00:26:47.784 --> 00:26:50.565
And it's very earnest, but I really liked it.
00:26:50.565 --> 00:27:02.250
so we were, and we were creating one of the ways that this company was sustaining itself is by creating interactive museum kiosks.
00:27:02.250 --> 00:27:05.141
And so that was really, yeah, that was really fun.
00:27:05.141 --> 00:27:08.031
So we did a children's museum in North Carolina.
00:27:08.872 --> 00:27:13.453
And so we were creating the media and also the kind of the interactivity.
00:27:14.309 --> 00:27:18.911
that would power exhibits throughout the museum.
00:27:19.491 --> 00:27:35.276
We did a couple of those museums, did some public television programming, and at the same time, my friends and I, I should say, I'm glad that this doesn't exist anymore.
00:27:35.596 --> 00:27:38.076
It's good that it's gone.
00:27:38.596 --> 00:27:42.238
We created a parody website.
00:27:42.723 --> 00:27:44.795
called ultraville.com it's gone.
00:27:44.795 --> 00:27:46.055
You cannot see it again.
00:27:46.055 --> 00:27:47.095
Thank God.
00:27:47.286 --> 00:27:48.935
like the domains gone.
00:27:49.675 --> 00:27:51.916
I know, I know it's, like, it's better.
00:27:51.916 --> 00:27:52.517
It's better.
00:27:52.517 --> 00:27:53.557
It's better.
00:27:54.317 --> 00:27:56.198
it's better for everybody.
00:27:56.198 --> 00:27:56.357
me.
00:27:56.357 --> 00:27:57.417
It's better.
00:27:57.898 --> 00:28:08.001
the idea was it was like, this is actually like pre-Google and there were all of these like portal websites, like Alta vista, for example.
00:28:08.001 --> 00:28:10.577
And so they would be like, Here is your life.
00:28:10.577 --> 00:28:13.619
It's like a portal to the internet, you know, sort of thing.
00:28:13.779 --> 00:28:23.085
And so we created this site that was like a portal to a like a very silly and absurd world.
00:28:23.085 --> 00:28:24.425
I put it that way.
00:28:25.446 --> 00:28:27.586
Yeah, it was really fun.
00:28:28.518 --> 00:28:31.750
A couple a couple of lessons from that.
00:28:32.430 --> 00:28:41.782
One is it's funny, we kind of labored under the impression that like a website is something that you make and then you finish it and then it's done.
00:28:42.123 --> 00:28:43.363
Like a book.
00:28:43.544 --> 00:28:44.604
I know.
00:28:49.476 --> 00:28:52.557
like you make a website and the website is now finished.
00:28:52.557 --> 00:28:53.037
There you go.
00:28:53.037 --> 00:28:54.587
It's like it's a finished product.
00:28:54.587 --> 00:28:56.189
It is not how it works.
00:28:56.929 --> 00:28:57.970
Yeah, exactly.
00:28:57.970 --> 00:28:58.789
Exactly.
00:28:58.789 --> 00:28:59.799
That is how we treat it.
00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:07.893
And it was interesting though, because it was like at the same time as like things like the onion were being created.
00:29:09.471 --> 00:29:19.190
It was very similar in the sense of we're going to use this tool for absurdity and fun.
00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:20.851
I love that.
00:29:20.851 --> 00:29:24.425
Did you, I assume you had a lot of aspergillitis and was it popular?
00:29:24.425 --> 00:29:28.395
Did anything come of it or was it just a fun little side quest in your journey?
00:29:28.395 --> 00:29:31.887
I think it was a side quest.
00:29:31.887 --> 00:29:43.453
And then it was interesting because the group of friends that came together to make it, we worked really hard on it for a summer or something like that.
00:29:43.453 --> 00:29:50.458
then just the centrifugal force of life pulled us apart.
00:29:50.458 --> 00:29:55.019
we came together, made it, and then dispersed.
00:29:55.941 --> 00:29:58.261
But it was definitely like...
00:29:58.671 --> 00:30:09.769
really fun to play with those tools and to kind of, I don't know, to experiment with different modes of storytelling, I would say.
00:30:10.410 --> 00:30:17.883
I feel like there was a solid time between like 2000 and like 2015 where we were all learning the internet.
00:30:17.883 --> 00:30:19.183
We were learning how to code.
00:30:19.183 --> 00:30:21.305
We were setting up these portals.
00:30:21.305 --> 00:30:22.775
I'm a MySpace gal.
00:30:22.775 --> 00:30:25.826
Shout out to Tom for teaching me HTML, you know?
00:30:25.987 --> 00:30:27.186
Wild times.
00:30:27.186 --> 00:30:30.147
So you make this website for a summer.
00:30:30.748 --> 00:30:33.709
You have these children museums exhibits.
00:30:34.250 --> 00:30:39.564
Life keeps on heading up and it looks like you go back to New York City.
00:30:39.564 --> 00:30:40.473
Yes.
00:30:41.335 --> 00:30:42.315
Yeah.
00:30:42.474 --> 00:30:48.678
So I moved to New York because Boston was cool, but I just loved New York.
00:30:48.857 --> 00:30:52.358
And that was, that was the place for me.
00:30:52.358 --> 00:30:57.740
Like the, energy, the creativity, it was, it was just where I wanted to be.
00:30:57.740 --> 00:31:08.134
So I moved back to New York and took a job teaching and which actually ended up, ended up being really important.
00:31:08.134 --> 00:31:16.163
I started as a sub, was subbing and then I was, I taught a fifth grade classroom and I started teaching science.
00:31:16.384 --> 00:31:21.509
And this was primarily at a school on 21st and 8th Avenue in Manhattan.
00:31:21.509 --> 00:31:25.212
And so that was kind of like a foundation.
00:31:25.212 --> 00:31:36.521
And at the same time, I started doing standup and, and then I started creating live shows and that was a lot of fun.
00:31:36.647 --> 00:31:39.034
Ooh, so many things to pick apart.
00:31:39.034 --> 00:31:44.877
science feels a little out of left field given your background up until this point.
00:31:44.877 --> 00:31:46.387
Yeah, I think that's true.
00:31:46.387 --> 00:31:50.317
It was just because there was opening, they needed a science teacher.
00:31:51.518 --> 00:31:53.698
It's like, yeah, I like science.
00:31:54.397 --> 00:31:59.317
When I was at that production company in Boston, we did a bunch of science content.
00:32:00.258 --> 00:32:03.617
And so I was like, yeah, it's kind of like that.
00:32:03.617 --> 00:32:08.597
And I should also say I was Montessori educated.
00:32:09.498 --> 00:32:13.665
And that was really in elementary school.
00:32:13.665 --> 00:32:14.897
And that was really important to me.
00:32:14.897 --> 00:32:22.717
And so I decided to try to implement sort of Montessori learning processes in this little science classroom.
00:32:22.978 --> 00:32:26.251
And again, teach myself how to teach.
00:32:26.804 --> 00:32:29.165
What, teach yourself how to teach.
00:32:29.728 --> 00:32:33.811
For folks who aren't familiar, what is Montessori learning like?
00:32:34.112 --> 00:32:35.775
that's such a good question.
00:32:36.410 --> 00:32:37.076
So.
00:32:37.076 --> 00:32:42.809
only know it, I had a friend who similarly, and she's like, I don't know, we had this class about cloud watching.
00:32:42.809 --> 00:32:47.153
So that's about my familiarity with Montessori style learning.
00:32:47.153 --> 00:32:48.212
Yeah.
00:32:48.453 --> 00:32:57.161
So so Maria Montessori is where is the kind of the the creator of this technique.
00:32:57.280 --> 00:32:59.462
And I believe the story goes.
00:32:59.462 --> 00:33:02.365
So this is in Italy around the turn of the century.
00:33:02.565 --> 00:33:09.590
She's in Naples and she's tasked with educating these kids that are sort of from working class.
00:33:09.851 --> 00:33:19.586
And she has no budget and these kids, you know, really have, have no kind of formal education whatsoever.
00:33:19.586 --> 00:33:25.932
And so she puts in place this very practical approach to learning, which is very kind of hands-on where you take.
00:33:25.932 --> 00:33:32.557
Practical materials and you put them in the classroom at eye height so that kids can access them.
00:33:32.557 --> 00:33:35.560
And you start with really basic hands-on things.
00:33:36.082 --> 00:33:45.575
like, for, for counting, for example, There's these classroom materials that are like these color coded beads.
00:33:45.695 --> 00:33:48.307
And so they're in different units.
00:33:48.307 --> 00:34:00.181
So like the light blue beads are beads that are in pairs and like bright pink is beads that are in three and like cobalt color is beads that are in four or something like that.
00:34:00.182 --> 00:34:08.405
And so you learn counting by actually holding these physical objects in your hand and then like laying them on the floor.
00:34:08.445 --> 00:34:16.833
And I remember like it was thrilling to try to create giant numbers by taking the beads and laying them all the way along the classroom.
00:34:16.833 --> 00:34:24.318
And then you could actually really count like this is like 740, which is like, you know, an absurdly large number.
00:34:24.697 --> 00:34:27.760
And this is what it physically looks like.
00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:30.572
And so Montessori is about hands-on learning.
00:34:30.572 --> 00:34:34.824
The other thing that is really exceptional about it, there's two other things.
00:34:34.844 --> 00:34:37.965
One is it's mixed age.
00:34:38.175 --> 00:34:48.108
So you're in a classroom with kids that are older and younger and the teacher, certainly like sets the kind of the culture in the class.
00:34:48.108 --> 00:35:03.592
But let's say if you and I were in, in the class together and I knew you were really good at writing, then if I, and I'm working on a story and I have questions about writing, even if I would direct them to the teacher, the teacher would direct that would direct me to you.
00:35:03.793 --> 00:35:07.974
And I would sit with you and you would teach me and.
00:35:08.057 --> 00:35:13.086
style learning with those different levels of expertise at your age bands.
00:35:13.086 --> 00:35:13.898
Cool.
00:35:13.898 --> 00:35:14.407
Exactly.
00:35:14.407 --> 00:35:14.978
Yeah.
00:35:14.978 --> 00:35:16.650
And so that's really, really powerful.
00:35:16.650 --> 00:35:24.923
So you would know like, you know, this kid is the math expert and you might be the writing expert and this person really knows geography and this person loves botany.
00:35:25.224 --> 00:35:36.070
And then you create materials for like you would create the learning materials for the classroom, which is really cool.
00:35:36.150 --> 00:35:41.333
And then the last part of it is you create your own schedule during the day.
00:35:41.516 --> 00:35:54.074
So it's like, you've got, I remember we had these like green little kind of planner books and you had to do like one of each of the five subjects, but when you did it during the day was up to you.
00:35:54.534 --> 00:35:57.315
So I would say like, okay, I'm gonna start with math today.
00:35:57.315 --> 00:36:01.378
Cause I feel like doing some addition or something like that.
00:36:01.498 --> 00:36:03.561
And I'll save my writing till later.
00:36:03.561 --> 00:36:05.963
And so the...
00:36:05.963 --> 00:36:11.978
The feeling in the classroom is all of these people sort of pursuing their own kind of course of independent study.
00:36:12.358 --> 00:36:17.172
And they're working at different paces in different subjects, and that's fine.
00:36:17.418 --> 00:36:19.936
They're working at the pace appropriate to them.
00:36:20.202 --> 00:36:20.733
Yeah.
00:36:20.733 --> 00:36:21.434
interested in.
00:36:21.434 --> 00:36:24.724
And the main thing is like, just get good at learning.
00:36:24.884 --> 00:36:25.315
Yeah.
00:36:25.315 --> 00:36:29.614
So how did you bring some of those philosophies into a science classroom?
00:36:29.614 --> 00:36:30.454
Yeah.
00:36:30.454 --> 00:36:43.733
So I would, I mean, it was a little bit hard because the mixed age thing was the hardest thing because it was like every 45 minutes or like a new cohort would come in and they'd be different.
00:36:44.213 --> 00:36:48.173
that school had a very diverse, population.
00:36:48.893 --> 00:36:56.653
and so, and they did tract, was a sort of tract education, which I think is kind of unfortunate.
00:36:57.134 --> 00:37:04.269
but as a result, You have like a cohort come in and it would put sort of provocations in front of them.
00:37:04.269 --> 00:37:10.230
So it could be, I spent a lot of my own money on materials.
00:37:11.190 --> 00:37:12.449
yeah.
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:15.398
so like, magnets, right.
00:37:15.398 --> 00:37:16.849
And iron filings.
00:37:16.849 --> 00:37:18.619
And so it, yeah.
00:37:18.619 --> 00:37:27.030
So instead of saying like, let's learn about magnetism or whatever, it would just be like, here's a bunch of stuff.
00:37:27.030 --> 00:37:28.757
Like let's start playing with it.
00:37:28.757 --> 00:37:30.599
And like, what do you notice?
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:33.021
You know, like, are you noticing something?
00:37:33.201 --> 00:37:40.746
and then, it's interesting that like these, this one and this one, like they push each other apart.
00:37:40.746 --> 00:37:42.358
But when you turn it around, they connect.
00:37:42.358 --> 00:37:44.108
I was like, okay, well, that's kind of interesting.
00:37:44.108 --> 00:37:45.750
Like, what is that about?
00:37:46.050 --> 00:37:55.137
And so you sort of like begin this process of open-ended inquiry that's led by what they're noticing, what the, what the students are noticing.
00:37:55.157 --> 00:37:56.197
And then.
00:37:56.469 --> 00:38:13.978
What I would do is negotiate with some of the other teachers to move kids from different ages in and out of the class so that you would still have like, it was really valuable to have older kids, some older kids in the classroom and then have them.
00:38:13.978 --> 00:38:21.103
you'd have like, you know, two or three third graders working in a small group and then one fourth or fifth grader.
00:38:21.182 --> 00:38:25.505
And like that was actually like a really cool little working unit.
00:38:27.277 --> 00:38:33.943
And a lot of times, the kids who are older who are in the classroom, it's like they didn't feel like they were with the little kids.
00:38:33.943 --> 00:38:40.186
They felt like a feeling of leadership, like they were able to guide them and help them.
00:38:40.186 --> 00:38:43.648
And it really helped them, think, from their...
00:38:43.648 --> 00:38:49.492
Certainly there's a few kids like behaviorally really helped them to be in that role.
00:38:50.554 --> 00:38:51.068
Yeah.
00:38:51.068 --> 00:39:05.324
are leading a science class, bringing in some cool things, and then on the side you're exploring, you said stand up, you said beard championships, we've got some dog shows going on.
00:39:05.324 --> 00:39:07.722
What is happening outside your nine to five?
00:39:07.722 --> 00:39:08.822
Yeah.
00:39:09.061 --> 00:39:10.842
Yeah.
00:39:11.663 --> 00:39:13.733
Yeah, I'll give you an example.
00:39:13.733 --> 00:39:13.963
Yeah.
00:39:13.963 --> 00:39:20.485
So I was I was doing stand up and then I was hosting stand up shows, primarily in the East Village.
00:39:21.246 --> 00:39:26.807
And so that was like, that would be, you know, like weekday night sort of thing.
00:39:26.807 --> 00:39:29.288
It is show called Nobody's Getting Famous Tonight.
00:39:30.168 --> 00:39:31.608
That I really liked.
00:39:31.668 --> 00:39:32.909
Yeah, it's a great title.
00:39:32.909 --> 00:39:34.880
It set the tone perfectly well.
00:39:34.882 --> 00:39:38.563
And it was just a place for comedians to come and like workshop their material.
00:39:39.422 --> 00:39:41.583
Like really, it was fun.
00:39:41.583 --> 00:39:43.103
It was a great little show.
00:39:44.945 --> 00:39:47.626
And then occasionally we do bigger shows.
00:39:47.626 --> 00:39:54.126
And it's so weird to think about this being relevant to like later in life.
00:39:55.927 --> 00:39:59.849
So we did this show called Dog Show Party.
00:39:59.849 --> 00:40:14.197
And so Dog Show Party, at its height, we were running it at a place called Tonic, which I don't think exists anymore, which is, again, like a Lower East Side and it's a capacity of like seven, 800 people, I think.
00:40:14.197 --> 00:40:18.248
And it was like, when this thing worked, it was like sold out lines around the block.
00:40:18.248 --> 00:40:22.277
Like it was a thing for a brief shining moment.
00:40:22.668 --> 00:40:32.731
and what we would do is kind of pirate the signal, the broadcast signal from the Westminster dog show, like the Yeah.
00:40:32.742 --> 00:40:34.543
the television broadcast.
00:40:34.623 --> 00:40:42.266
And then we had kind of video mixers where you could kind of separate the video signal from the audio signals.
00:40:42.266 --> 00:40:47.248
And then we could put video on top of it, if that makes sense, and audio on top of it.
00:40:47.248 --> 00:40:49.349
So we had projection, it was two floors.
00:40:49.349 --> 00:40:52.490
So it was projection on the top floor and the bottom floor.
00:40:52.490 --> 00:40:58.913
And then we created this kind of alternate presentation of the dog show around it.
00:40:58.914 --> 00:41:02.527
So we had our own Yeah, we had like our own commentators.
00:41:03.108 --> 00:41:05.248
We had dog show dancers.
00:41:06.088 --> 00:41:09.231
We had our own like kind of interstitial segments.
00:41:09.791 --> 00:41:13.413
We had live gambling, which is also amazing.
00:41:13.793 --> 00:41:20.217
So without a question, not legal.
00:41:21.338 --> 00:41:26.768
And but it was amazing because like people were really betting and I was like such I cannot believe some stuff.
00:41:26.768 --> 00:41:31.851
I'm like, I can't believe that we did that because it was like We probably could have lost a lot of money somehow.
00:41:31.851 --> 00:41:32.442
You know what I mean?
00:41:32.442 --> 00:41:37.273
Like if somebody made some sort of bet that, but whatever, that didn't happen.
00:41:38.576 --> 00:41:42.458
We also, was a partnership with this nonprofit called Rational Animal.
00:41:42.458 --> 00:41:47.019
And so it was also about kind of visibility for animal adoption.
00:41:47.981 --> 00:41:52.282
So there was like, there was a slight purpose to it.
00:41:53.304 --> 00:41:55.505
We also had a lot of actual dogs.
00:41:56.353 --> 00:42:05.016
So we had people bringing dogs and people brought all kinds of like, like obscure, unusual dog breeds there.
00:42:05.016 --> 00:42:07.697
So we had, we judged some of those dogs that were there.
00:42:07.697 --> 00:42:08.998
Then we also had the dogs.
00:42:08.998 --> 00:42:12.657
This was, this didn't work, but we tried to have the dogs judge the humans.
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:24.222
Just as you can imagine, not all the segments worked.
00:42:24.635 --> 00:42:25.672
Hey, you gotta try it.
00:42:25.672 --> 00:42:27.228
You never know until you try.
00:42:27.228 --> 00:42:31.820
if the dog if the dogs are being judged, the dog should also be able to judge the people.
00:42:35.521 --> 00:42:37.161
So interesting.
00:42:37.981 --> 00:42:48.523
But I remember, like, leaving the so we would do we charge door like a tickets and then we did like a bar split.
00:42:48.603 --> 00:42:54.795
And I remember leaving those events with like, giant wads of cash.
00:42:55.570 --> 00:43:01.753
and thinking like, this is so crazy that like, that worked.
00:43:04.074 --> 00:43:12.168
Yeah, like this night was like, more lucrative than like multiple weeks of teaching.
00:43:13.556 --> 00:43:14.838
That is painful.
00:43:14.838 --> 00:43:17.943
So this, this is affording your monosaur.
00:43:17.943 --> 00:43:20.264
Yeah, that is really what it's doing.
00:43:20.264 --> 00:43:23.858
right.
00:43:24.219 --> 00:43:26.561
That's, that's so funny.
00:43:26.561 --> 00:43:27.211
That's right.
00:43:27.211 --> 00:43:29.023
but that's exactly right.
00:43:29.873 --> 00:43:31.195
you know how many magnets this can buy?
00:43:31.195 --> 00:43:33.646
Yeah.
00:43:33.947 --> 00:43:35.268
That's funny.
00:43:36.431 --> 00:43:38.032
Yeah, so that was that was right.
00:43:38.032 --> 00:43:39.112
So that was similar.
00:43:39.112 --> 00:43:43.757
That was that was a that was an event.
00:43:43.757 --> 00:43:44.947
Where was that?
00:43:45.657 --> 00:43:47.778
another place that's gone, I think it was that knitting factory.
00:43:47.778 --> 00:43:49.940
I don't think knitting factory exists anymore.
00:43:51.322 --> 00:44:06.248
but, yeah, so that was a, an event where we, we had judging and we did a bearded mustache championships for New York city.
00:44:06.829 --> 00:44:08.431
And we got people to come internationally.
00:44:08.431 --> 00:44:13.153
There was, in fact, the person that won was from Vietnam, if I remember correctly, which is really cool.
00:44:13.153 --> 00:44:14.324
I don't, I don't know.
00:44:14.985 --> 00:44:16.286
that guy was awesome.
00:44:16.286 --> 00:44:21.889
But we also, did, we were very concerned about the gender normative nature of facial hair.
00:44:21.889 --> 00:44:24.920
And so, we had alternate categories.
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:27.610
We had a fake beard, we had a fake category.
00:44:27.610 --> 00:44:30.893
We also had like, like, brows.
00:44:31.952 --> 00:44:32.974
so was like a facial hair.
00:44:32.974 --> 00:44:33.126
Yeah.
00:44:33.126 --> 00:44:35.934
It was like a facial hair kind of in general thing.
00:44:35.934 --> 00:44:43.237
Cause, we wanted to be, conscious of the gender normative nature of facial hair.
00:44:44.398 --> 00:45:02.005
And yeah, and so as a result of that, was able to through somebody who was making a documentary about the beard and mustache world, I made a transition into, was offered to make a transition into television production.
00:45:04.786 --> 00:45:09.829
Yeah, and it was, it was like, it was definitely like a hard thing to do.
00:45:09.829 --> 00:45:11.909
The decision came down to two things for me.
00:45:11.909 --> 00:45:13.920
One was the money.
00:45:14.451 --> 00:45:29.001
And, and then the other thing was at the time, because they needed teachers, I was able to teach and not have a master's in education, but I was going to need to get a master's in education to stay.
00:45:29.001 --> 00:45:30.994
And I just didn't.
00:45:30.994 --> 00:45:36.362
like more money you're sinking into the job that isn't paying you as well as the TV production job.
00:45:36.362 --> 00:45:37.503
Exactly.
00:45:37.503 --> 00:45:43.525
I just didn't, again, like I just didn't want to go to school to to.
00:45:43.907 --> 00:45:45.297
Yeah, I'm not going to.
00:45:45.297 --> 00:45:45.827
I'm not.
00:45:45.827 --> 00:45:47.128
No, I'm not.
00:45:47.128 --> 00:45:48.650
Yeah, that's right.
00:45:48.650 --> 00:45:49.630
I'm not going.
00:45:49.630 --> 00:45:51.030
I don't want to do that.
00:45:52.112 --> 00:45:53.132
Yes.
00:45:53.873 --> 00:45:54.996
Yeah, that's right.
00:45:54.996 --> 00:45:56.168
been discovered, I think.
00:45:56.168 --> 00:45:57.518
I think that's what they call it.
00:45:57.518 --> 00:46:07.838
I don't know, but it was really, for a while it was really fun because it took me to all kinds of places.
00:46:09.097 --> 00:46:15.277
I ended up working for National Geographic, which was just a lot of fun.
00:46:15.277 --> 00:46:24.338
mean, National Geographic at the time was going through this transition from traditional nature to reality television, which is a whole nother conversation.
00:46:24.338 --> 00:46:27.525
So that part of it wasn't great, but we're still able to...
00:46:28.561 --> 00:46:32.262
you know, Monday morning, get on a plane and go somewhere.
00:46:32.262 --> 00:46:38.311
And then you have to just show up, meet people and try to tell their story as quickly as you can.
00:46:38.711 --> 00:46:41.063
And that was a lot of fun.
00:46:41.063 --> 00:46:43.655
Yeah.
00:46:44.958 --> 00:46:45.271
Yeah.
00:46:45.271 --> 00:46:48.181
you sell a TV show?
00:46:48.181 --> 00:46:53.675
Yeah, so, yeah, so I got really into this question.
00:46:53.675 --> 00:47:14.960
It's funny because, you know, with what has what has just happened in this country politically, I think was a shock to a lot of people, including myself, who I was like, I was sure Kamala was going to and and very disappointed that she didn't.
00:47:18.206 --> 00:47:23.847
At the last time I remember really feeling this way was during the Bush administration.
00:47:24.329 --> 00:47:31.210
And, especially when he got reelected and it was like, how did we just do this?
00:47:31.711 --> 00:47:41.394
And so I got really interested in red America, red state America is trying to understand like, you know, cause I grew up in Philadelphia.
00:47:41.394 --> 00:47:47.789
I've been in, I've been in a blue world and I had a friend who's a lovely.
00:47:47.789 --> 00:47:54.672
person, she's a photographer and she was doing this photo series about kids who were aspiring to be a NASCAR.
00:47:55.072 --> 00:48:05.217
And so I started traveling with her to North Carolina and spending time with these kids who were aspiring race car drivers.
00:48:05.436 --> 00:48:11.699
And one of them was from Kansas and I went to Kansas and I just got into this world there.
00:48:12.380 --> 00:48:17.302
Outside of Kansas City, about an hour and half outside of Kansas City, there's a dirt track.
00:48:18.311 --> 00:48:18.960
speedway.
00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:19.822
So it's not paved.
00:48:19.822 --> 00:48:22.503
It's dirt, called lakeside speedway.
00:48:22.503 --> 00:48:29.199
And it was just this kind of microcosm of a community where like every Friday night.
00:48:29.800 --> 00:48:37.585
Like the town shows up and these people are racing the cars that they work on like nights and weekends with each other.
00:48:37.887 --> 00:48:40.807
And I just fell in love with the community.
00:48:40.889 --> 00:48:45.331
They were so kind and so funny, like really funny people.
00:48:46.534 --> 00:48:47.393
and.
00:48:47.869 --> 00:48:49.820
And I was just documenting it.
00:48:49.820 --> 00:48:52.911
was shooting them, getting to know them, earning their trust.
00:48:52.971 --> 00:49:01.753
And I put together a presentation around it and partnered with a company who was LA based.
00:49:01.753 --> 00:49:08.815
And we sold it to Discovery Networks, which again, Discovery has changed a lot between now and then.
00:49:09.735 --> 00:49:17.550
But it was a super high budget primetime show.
00:49:17.550 --> 00:49:20.679
for a while, which was amazing.
00:49:20.679 --> 00:49:30.650
then it was like these, one of the people that we were working with, Tom Charles was like a welder.
00:49:30.710 --> 00:49:38.349
And one day I remember having this conversation with him and like his driveway is full of like Cadillac escalates.
00:49:38.349 --> 00:49:41.282
And there's just like all these people like.
00:49:41.282 --> 00:49:45.824
from LA just disgorging and coming out and like, you know, rigging cameras and all that kind of stuff.
00:49:45.824 --> 00:49:51.706
And I just remember having this surreal moment where Tom and I were like, isn't this crazy that this is happening?
00:49:52.688 --> 00:49:53.498
It was pretty cool.
00:49:53.498 --> 00:49:55.101
It was pretty cool.
00:49:55.101 --> 00:49:55.976
It was more than cool.
00:49:55.976 --> 00:49:57.269
It was really special.
00:49:57.454 --> 00:50:05.858
Especially that it's sprang from just this interest of exploring communities and identities and places that you weren't familiar with.
00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:12.382
And by all accounts, according to your journey line, you are riding high until you're not.
00:50:12.382 --> 00:50:15.070
You have a significant relationship change.
00:50:15.070 --> 00:50:15.811
Yeah.
00:50:15.811 --> 00:50:16.871
Yeah.
00:50:18.231 --> 00:50:18.871
Yeah.
00:50:18.871 --> 00:50:22.012
Here's a piece of advice for listeners.
00:50:24.112 --> 00:50:38.356
If you're if you're in a relationship with somebody and you get into, let's say, an argument with them about something like core, like, you know, should we buy a house or something like that?
00:50:39.197 --> 00:50:41.927
Don't settle the argument by marrying them.
00:50:42.585 --> 00:50:47.474
is that not an effective argument relief strategy?
00:50:49.380 --> 00:50:50.983
That's fair, that's fair.
00:50:51.570 --> 00:50:54.878
I would strongly warn against that.
00:50:55.545 --> 00:50:59.262
So you get married to someone that maybe...
00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:04.572
Yeah, like a lovely like a truly lovely person.
00:51:05.713 --> 00:51:16.278
And but ultimately, not the person that I think we were meant we were not meant to be together.
00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:19.481
Yeah, exactly right.
00:51:19.481 --> 00:51:25.684
And so we did like us like, like a city hall wedding, super fast.
00:51:25.684 --> 00:51:27.985
We were like, fine, let's get married.
00:51:29.076 --> 00:51:31.242
Settle this argument by getting married.
00:51:31.869 --> 00:51:32.643
Perfect.
00:51:32.643 --> 00:51:34.284
that will settle it.
00:51:34.744 --> 00:51:35.784
I know how to solve this.
00:51:35.784 --> 00:51:37.204
Let's get married.
00:51:39.047 --> 00:51:40.907
Yeah.
00:51:41.547 --> 00:51:47.981
And yeah, so so like, got married very quickly in City Hall.
00:51:47.981 --> 00:51:55.775
And I think I think also, I was of the mode I was of the mind where I was like, what is marriage is just a piece of paper, you know, like that.
00:51:55.775 --> 00:51:56.887
I had that mindset.
00:51:56.887 --> 00:51:58.617
Yeah.
00:51:58.757 --> 00:51:59.498
Yep.
00:52:00.034 --> 00:52:01.786
early, in my early and mid-20s.
00:52:01.786 --> 00:52:02.697
I was like, what?
00:52:02.697 --> 00:52:04.389
Why do I need that piece of paper?
00:52:04.389 --> 00:52:08.925
And now, a little bit older, it's heavier than just a piece of paper, yeah.
00:52:09.606 --> 00:52:10.608
it's a lot more.
00:52:10.608 --> 00:52:11.409
it's a lot more.
00:52:11.409 --> 00:52:14.210
Yeah.
00:52:14.489 --> 00:52:18.791
Yeah.
00:52:18.791 --> 00:52:32.967
One thing I had found out this is another kind of realization I had made was my and I found this out much later in life, but my father had also been married once before marrying my mother.
00:52:33.822 --> 00:52:40.068
And I subconsciously or consciously replicated that pattern.
00:52:41.010 --> 00:52:41.900
I know.
00:52:42.206 --> 00:52:47.246
from the South, I'm from the Southeastern United States, and we like to call those starter marriages.
00:52:47.246 --> 00:52:50.530
you Yep.
00:52:51.050 --> 00:52:51.811
Yep.
00:52:51.811 --> 00:52:52.050
Yep.
00:52:52.050 --> 00:52:52.280
Yep.
00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:53.090
Yep.
00:52:54.471 --> 00:52:54.721
no.
00:52:54.721 --> 00:52:55.552
So I was going to say, yeah.
00:52:55.552 --> 00:52:57.391
So that was my starter marriage.
00:52:57.391 --> 00:53:05.273
And, one thing I didn't expect was, was what like, cause again, marriage is just a piece of paper.
00:53:05.273 --> 00:53:06.034
What is it?
00:53:06.034 --> 00:53:12.916
But then when, when you get divorced, it became the set of pieces of paper.
00:53:12.916 --> 00:53:17.536
And thankfully it was like an amicable, you know, there's an amicable thing.
00:53:18.498 --> 00:53:19.538
but.
00:53:19.936 --> 00:53:21.005
It became everything.
00:53:21.005 --> 00:53:24.518
It became like the center of my identity for a while.
00:53:24.518 --> 00:53:26.628
Like I'm a divorced person.
00:53:26.768 --> 00:53:29.440
You know, like, yeah, this is everything.
00:53:29.440 --> 00:53:31.030
This defines me now.
00:53:31.391 --> 00:53:34.211
And I, yeah, well, that's what I was thinking at the time.
00:53:34.211 --> 00:53:36.853
It was, it was, yeah, I would agree with you.
00:53:36.853 --> 00:53:37.704
That's not really true.
00:53:37.704 --> 00:53:40.094
But at the time, that was what I was telling myself.
00:53:40.605 --> 00:53:51.391
and so, I, I got into this really deep depression and My way out again was trying to use the camera.
00:53:51.442 --> 00:53:54.675
and so I, I shot this interview with my dad.
00:53:54.675 --> 00:53:56.016
My dad's a psychiatrist.
00:53:56.016 --> 00:53:59.398
He's been practicing for 40 years.
00:54:00.260 --> 00:54:09.677
And so I shot this interview with my dad and I put it on YouTube and in the, the interview, I, you know, I was sort of trying to ask him questions.
00:54:09.677 --> 00:54:13.750
I don't think I would have felt comfortable asking just in a conversation.
00:54:14.039 --> 00:54:19.090
But somehow having the camera there and having it be in the structure of an interview made it safer.
00:54:20.032 --> 00:54:22.012
And so, yeah.
00:54:22.012 --> 00:54:24.523
And so, I, I did that.
00:54:24.523 --> 00:54:34.215
And then a little while later, I got a message through YouTube and it was this person who was looking for him and, and was unable to find him.
00:54:34.456 --> 00:54:43.137
And so we started to, we like connected and it turned out that this person was a former patient of his.
00:54:43.909 --> 00:54:56.039
And so I put them in touch and then she and I started talking and she was an organic farmer in central Pennsylvania and she invited me out to her farm.
00:54:56.099 --> 00:55:05.317
So I went out to her farm and it was like I had stepped into this place that felt like paradise.
00:55:05.317 --> 00:55:13.733
There was like this bubbling brook coming down, you know, the middle of this little field and there were kids running all over the place.
00:55:14.018 --> 00:55:18.398
And this woman's name is Marsha.
00:55:18.539 --> 00:55:19.780
Her husband's name is Giles.
00:55:19.780 --> 00:55:23.059
Giles is like this big, ruddy guy who wears a utila kilt.
00:55:24.541 --> 00:55:27.461
And yeah, he's an amazing guy.
00:55:27.461 --> 00:55:35.204
He's a chef and growing food because he wanted to like really source the ingredients correctly.
00:55:37.284 --> 00:55:42.186
Marsha had this patina around her.
00:55:42.186 --> 00:55:49.088
of like someone who was just at ease at truly at ease.
00:55:49.148 --> 00:55:53.268
And I was not at the time I was far from being at ease.
00:55:53.588 --> 00:55:57.019
And I just asked her like, what is your secret?
00:55:57.019 --> 00:55:59.710
Like, what have you what have you figured out about life?
00:56:00.570 --> 00:56:10.840
And that sort of started a conversation that began a documentary project, because I really wanted to know the answer to that.
00:56:10.840 --> 00:56:16.501
Like how did you, it's funny, it's actually kind of like journey lines in a way where I was like, how did you get here?
00:56:16.623 --> 00:56:17.563
You know?
00:56:18.186 --> 00:56:20.630
Yeah, I wanted to know.
00:56:21.010 --> 00:56:27.295
I think a lot of people see people like Marcia and are like, how did you get there?
00:56:27.996 --> 00:56:32.257
Yeah, so you started a documentary series about it.
00:56:32.257 --> 00:56:32.757
Yeah.
00:56:32.757 --> 00:56:33.579
Yeah.
00:56:33.579 --> 00:56:37.081
So I did this interview with her.
00:56:37.574 --> 00:56:40.702
I got to know her for a while.
00:56:41.784 --> 00:56:43.795
Shot several days of interview with her.
00:56:43.795 --> 00:56:49.228
And then it began this process that took years.
00:56:49.269 --> 00:56:52.621
the reason, well, there's a number of reasons why it took years.
00:56:52.621 --> 00:57:24.338
But I think the main thing is that She has, I don't think you can say overcome PTSD because I feel like it's like you integrate this traumatic experiences that you've had in your life and you find a way to integrate those traumatic memories and become, how would I put this?
00:57:24.338 --> 00:57:28.496
You become, happy.
00:57:28.496 --> 00:57:36.320
You can find a way to be happy despite having some really traumatic things in your background and form relationships.
00:57:36.320 --> 00:57:41.384
And I wanted to know what that journey was like, how she did that.
00:57:41.831 --> 00:57:45.719
Yeah, I like how you use the word confronts PTSD on your journey line.
00:57:45.719 --> 00:57:50.697
And I think that's right because it's never quite resolved, but you do confront it.
00:57:50.697 --> 00:58:05.896
There's no, you don't cure yourself, but you, you can, you can evolve, like you can evolve how you feel about, what has happened and you can really gain a lot of strength.
00:58:05.896 --> 00:58:11.329
And so this person, is, she is by far the strongest person that I know she's incredible person.
00:58:11.329 --> 00:58:22.744
so, that The process of working on that was really, really hard because it is not a commercial project.
00:58:26.248 --> 00:58:27.931
For a long time, yeah, it was just me.
00:58:27.931 --> 00:58:31.695
And then I brought friends on to work with me, some incredible friends.
00:58:32.378 --> 00:58:33.014
And you finish.
00:58:33.014 --> 00:58:35.434
You just say start, assume you finish.
00:58:36.159 --> 00:58:36.909
Great.
00:58:37.378 --> 00:58:39.418
later in the journey line.
00:58:40.818 --> 00:58:42.038
Yeah, yeah.
00:58:42.038 --> 00:58:49.277
But with any of these types of projects where they're self-financed, it's an uphill battle.
00:58:49.628 --> 00:58:55.905
Alright, well while you are starting, you have to make money.
00:58:55.905 --> 00:58:57.898
Yes.
00:58:57.898 --> 00:59:04.885
So I see you start kind of creeping back up above this line of neutrality and you start, you start back in TV.
00:59:05.927 --> 00:59:06.788
High paying.
00:59:06.788 --> 00:59:08.228
You even call out high paying.
00:59:08.228 --> 00:59:09.231
I mean the dream.
00:59:09.231 --> 00:59:10.751
You've been discovered.
00:59:10.827 --> 00:59:11.456
Yeah.
00:59:11.456 --> 00:59:21.208
So I move into a role that is like a showrunner role for for for nonfiction.
00:59:21.570 --> 00:59:24.210
So not scripted stuff, but for nonfiction stuff.
00:59:24.731 --> 00:59:30.891
And there was definitely like a period of time.
00:59:30.891 --> 00:59:45.021
This is kind of like pre Netflix, I would say that kind of like the height of true kind of cable television where there was just a lot of money in that ecosystem.
00:59:45.242 --> 00:59:55.208
was like, was a, it was a, and that's probably why they tried to, I mean, they did disrupt it, but yeah, yeah, that's right.
00:59:55.208 --> 01:00:03.331
It was that, and it was also like the, the local cable providers were then paying fees back to the networks.
01:00:03.331 --> 01:00:04.972
So they're getting paid twice.
01:00:04.972 --> 01:00:11.277
And so there was just, It was like a, there's, there was a lot of money, a lot of production.
01:00:11.277 --> 01:00:12.719
There was a lot happening.
01:00:13.340 --> 01:00:17.443
And, so I'm doing that.
01:00:18.043 --> 01:00:23.297
But the, but is, I don't really like the storytelling.
01:00:23.297 --> 01:00:25.750
Like I don't like what these things are about.
01:00:26.911 --> 01:00:32.065
and I have some truly miraculous, incredible experiences, you know, doing that work.
01:00:32.065 --> 01:00:35.487
Cause again, you just get put in random places like.
01:00:35.985 --> 01:00:44.172
in New Orleans with these underground gamblers.
01:00:45.213 --> 01:00:47.244
And that is a whole thing.
01:00:47.244 --> 01:00:49.257
That is a whole world.
01:00:51.398 --> 01:00:51.889
Yeah.
01:00:51.889 --> 01:00:52.905
And it's fun.
01:00:52.905 --> 01:01:05.253
It was just fun to be in these places where, again, it was like, And like, there's not like a it's not like a huge crew or a whole lot of support.
01:01:05.253 --> 01:01:09.034
It's like typically than you just a few people and you are like you're in it.
01:01:09.034 --> 01:01:28.003
There was a point where I will just say there was a point where I had I was I was trying I was trying to provide a how was the right word?
01:01:28.003 --> 01:01:30.253
Like, can I say the word hillbilly?
01:01:30.253 --> 01:01:31.434
Is that like unfair?
01:01:31.434 --> 01:01:32.974
Okay, okay.
01:01:33.974 --> 01:01:35.233
Yeah, like right.
01:01:35.233 --> 01:01:37.313
And I said again, said with love.
01:01:37.653 --> 01:01:46.233
But somebody like I had $16,000 of cash in like a canvas bag.
01:01:46.353 --> 01:01:56.994
And and there was it was like, that needed to be delivered to this kind of like Bowie knife wielding hillbilly.
01:01:59.242 --> 01:02:05.552
That sounds like super nefarious and it's like it really wasn't it was just like a contract thing and this guy would only accept cash.
01:02:06.302 --> 01:02:08.661
and just what a situation you found yourself in.
01:02:08.661 --> 01:02:11.123
like, wow, this is really weird.
01:02:11.222 --> 01:02:29.380
but like, again, I'm like, I don't think I was put on this earth for these reasons, you know, like to be making, and again, like, it's one thing to be making like kind of nature docs and that sort of work.
01:02:29.380 --> 01:02:35.313
And it's another thing when it sort of becomes reality TV and reality TV starts to take over and it's like, I don't like this.
01:02:35.313 --> 01:02:36.503
I don't want to watch this.
01:02:36.503 --> 01:02:38.092
I don't think it's very good.
01:02:38.092 --> 01:02:39.559
I'm not interested in it.
01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:43.625
If you don't wanna watch it, I feel like you probably don't wanna create it.
01:02:43.625 --> 01:02:54.177
just given your background of these ultra independent, kind of quirky events, I feel like this is maybe a little bit more mainstream for your liking.
01:02:54.177 --> 01:02:59.804
And maybe you end up liking this world a little less and less, this TV world.
01:02:59.829 --> 01:03:01.349
Yeah, that's right.
01:03:01.951 --> 01:03:08.632
And I essentially wind up in a job where I'm being paid a lot.
01:03:09.132 --> 01:03:11.952
But I really, really don't like it.
01:03:12.233 --> 01:03:20.175
And ultimately, it's like I couldn't for a while, I was able to like pretend to be interested.
01:03:20.516 --> 01:03:25.257
But then I couldn't even really pretend to be interested anymore.
01:03:25.266 --> 01:03:26.820
I can't even fake it.
01:03:27.346 --> 01:03:30.501
I hate this so much I can't even fake it.
01:03:30.501 --> 01:03:31.202
don't care.
01:03:31.202 --> 01:03:39.521
And if you're in the showrunner role, you leave a lot of people reporting to you and they're like looking to you for like, you know, guidance and inspiration.
01:03:39.521 --> 01:03:42.782
And I remember being in a room with one of the editors and like, what do you think about this?
01:03:42.782 --> 01:03:44.161
I'm like, I don't fucking know, man.
01:03:44.161 --> 01:03:46.641
Like, it's fine.
01:03:46.782 --> 01:03:52.161
Like, it's just, it's good.
01:03:52.161 --> 01:03:53.034
Let's just get out of here.
01:03:53.034 --> 01:03:58.235
So I assume you're an awarded employee of the year at this point, or?
01:03:58.235 --> 01:04:01.155
no, no, no, no, I was I was fired.
01:04:02.797 --> 01:04:03.657
Yeah, I was fired.
01:04:03.657 --> 01:04:11.641
And I definitely I wrote in my dream line, got myself fired because I definitely was like, you know, it was like I should I guess I should have just quit.
01:04:11.641 --> 01:04:15.344
But, you know, it was it was like being paid well.
01:04:15.463 --> 01:04:21.717
And at this time, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:04:21.717 --> 01:04:26.409
But I kind of knew in the back of my head like this isn't this isn't really what I want to be doing.
01:04:27.288 --> 01:04:36.141
and I think the other thing that happened is I had met Gillian at this point, who I was about to, about to marry and my focus was just in our relationship.
01:04:37.681 --> 01:04:41.764
and so it was like this, yeah, this thing was just this thing I was doing during the day.
01:04:42.804 --> 01:04:46.686
and so, yes, I get fired.
01:04:47.065 --> 01:04:50.288
well, actually we, I think we had been married.
01:04:50.288 --> 01:04:52.407
I think we were already married at that point.
01:04:52.869 --> 01:04:54.469
Yeah, that's right.
01:04:55.369 --> 01:04:56.143
That's right.
01:04:56.143 --> 01:04:57.356
TV show runner.
01:04:57.356 --> 01:04:58.306
That's right.
01:05:00.048 --> 01:05:06.394
And it was like, it was somewhat traumatic, but it was also kind of a relief.
01:05:07.416 --> 01:05:10.612
And I remember Getting fired, not getting married, right?
01:05:11.458 --> 01:05:12.579
Or both?
01:05:13.021 --> 01:05:14.605
Okay, not traumatic.
01:05:15.028 --> 01:05:16.250
Thanks, Gillian.
01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:17.201
Yeah, yeah.
01:05:17.201 --> 01:05:19.244
Thank you for clarifying that, Kim.
01:05:19.465 --> 01:05:20.887
I appreciate that.
01:05:21.208 --> 01:05:21.601
Yes.
01:05:21.601 --> 01:05:25.416
getting fired, a little traumatic, but also like, I mean, I've been there, right?
01:05:25.416 --> 01:05:26.844
It's a little like a weight off your chest.
01:05:26.844 --> 01:05:27.773
You're like, okay.
01:05:27.773 --> 01:05:28.655
Now what?
01:05:28.711 --> 01:05:34.615
I remember I went out to the owner of the company took me out to lunch afterwards.
01:05:34.737 --> 01:05:38.940
And I remember leaving not to fire me because that had already happened.
01:05:38.940 --> 01:05:40.320
Somebody else did that.
01:05:40.460 --> 01:05:45.545
It was just a like, Hey, just want to say no hard feelings like this one didn't work out kind of thing.
01:05:45.606 --> 01:05:49.869
And I remember walking out of that lunch and just feeling like amazing.
01:05:50.590 --> 01:05:54.472
Where I was like, I was like walking down the street, Fifth Avenue.
01:05:54.472 --> 01:05:56.045
And it was like, man.
01:05:56.045 --> 01:05:57.072
I don't have to do that anymore?
01:05:57.072 --> 01:05:58.356
This is great.
01:05:58.378 --> 01:06:00.471
world at my fingertips.
01:06:00.934 --> 01:06:02.114
So what do you do?
01:06:02.927 --> 01:06:04.628
I do a lot of hot yoga.
01:06:06.010 --> 01:06:12.815
And then through a friend, I got hired at a internet media startup.
01:06:13.777 --> 01:06:15.382
And I mean, it's not really fair to call a startup.
01:06:15.382 --> 01:06:21.603
It had been around for many, many years, but still it was sort of in a funding and seeking profitability kind of cycle.
01:06:24.105 --> 01:06:26.427
yeah, definitely, definitely chaotic.
01:06:26.447 --> 01:06:30.250
But it was a, it was like established, definitely like an established thing.
01:06:30.710 --> 01:06:46.257
And for a while, I remember this moment of like, was one of these things where I was sort of brought in to do something to do this like virtual reality project.
01:06:47.378 --> 01:06:50.550
And which is already like, well, this is way more interesting than what I was doing before.
01:06:50.550 --> 01:07:00.365
OK, what is like, there's a brief shiny moment when people thought virtual reality was going to be like every five years, it's like maybe VR is going to be a thing.
01:07:00.365 --> 01:07:01.985
It was like during one of those.
01:07:02.586 --> 01:07:03.686
Yeah.
01:07:05.907 --> 01:07:10.610
Yeah, it was during one of those crests of possibility.
01:07:10.650 --> 01:07:26.856
And I remember like within like an hour, an hour and a half of being there, like I was on a call with the Kind of pitching them a concept, which is like.
01:07:27.836 --> 01:07:29.570
OK, sure.
01:07:29.570 --> 01:07:34.675
I haven't even signed anything, but I'll talk to the client and we'll try to figure this out.
01:07:35.215 --> 01:07:44.726
And, like ended up going around the world doing that, which was really fun, not around the world, but to several cities, doing that.
01:07:44.726 --> 01:07:52.253
And it definitely felt like, this is a, this is genuinely kind of new and really interesting and exciting.
01:07:53.119 --> 01:07:54.201
Amazing.
01:07:54.503 --> 01:07:56.746
I'm assuming you keep up with that work.
01:07:57.128 --> 01:07:59.192
You moved to LA for it?
01:08:00.244 --> 01:08:20.192
I was in New York for several years and then I ended up moving out to LA, but I took a full-time position there and we did some things that were like, I would say technically complex that were in the live space or the kind of like live entertainment space.
01:08:20.192 --> 01:08:23.545
did a couple, like, I guess they're really trade show things.
01:08:23.545 --> 01:08:34.746
We did a couple of those that were like, there was a period of time when I think the idea was that all advertising was going to leave television and move on to the internet.
01:08:34.746 --> 01:08:41.387
And it was going to be captured by these publishers like Buzzfeed, places like that.
01:08:41.648 --> 01:08:47.210
And it, a lot of it did move off of television, but they're not who that's not who captured it.
01:08:47.530 --> 01:08:49.150
but at the time it was.
01:08:49.851 --> 01:08:50.431
Yeah.
01:08:50.431 --> 01:08:55.833
Netflix ads, Facebook, Google ad sense.
01:08:56.438 --> 01:08:59.917
but there was a period of time, there was like a jump ball, like what's going to happen.
01:08:59.917 --> 01:09:06.778
And it was really interesting to be on the side of, the digital side, it come from the commercial side and it felt really good.
01:09:06.778 --> 01:09:14.497
And so we were kind of like, worked outrageously hard, like crazy hours.
01:09:15.398 --> 01:09:23.109
so much, like so much so that I, I like, I don't know if you've ever been to a stage of burnout where you like are close to hallucinating and things like that.
01:09:23.199 --> 01:09:27.853
Yeah, you're having a lot of panic attacks and things don't feel real and you wonder.
01:09:28.340 --> 01:09:29.314
Yeah.
01:09:29.314 --> 01:09:35.434
euphoric kind of feeling a little bit because it was sort of like, I mean, I don't know that was.
01:09:35.974 --> 01:09:36.953
Yeah.
01:09:38.734 --> 01:09:40.054
It was a youth.
01:09:40.054 --> 01:09:42.684
And I remember my wife talks about these moments.
01:09:42.684 --> 01:09:45.514
She was like, you really went crazy for a while, man.
01:09:45.713 --> 01:09:46.413
You.
01:09:46.413 --> 01:09:51.774
It was it was we were really overworked and we were trying to do everything ourselves and.
01:09:51.923 --> 01:09:54.742
and you have wrecks around this time.
01:09:54.912 --> 01:09:55.931
Yeah, actually.
01:09:55.931 --> 01:10:11.046
And one of the crazy things is that Rex, for one of these events, they like the production team set up a little, like crib area for Rex when he was just, when he was a baby.
01:10:11.185 --> 01:10:19.689
And I remember my, my wife, like it was like one of the, was like, it was like just a couple of weeks after he was born.
01:10:19.689 --> 01:10:24.546
It was like one of the first times that she like put on makeup and got dressed up again.
01:10:24.546 --> 01:10:29.667
you know, and like came to this kind of event and they had set up this little area for Rex.
01:10:29.809 --> 01:10:31.349
And it was actually really wonderful.
01:10:31.349 --> 01:10:39.972
And like the, there was a lot of women there who had been mothers and were mothers and were really supportive of her.
01:10:40.934 --> 01:10:43.073
And that was actually really wonderful.
01:10:43.614 --> 01:10:45.865
And so, yeah, so we welcome Rex into the world.
01:10:45.865 --> 01:10:55.631
I mean, I remember like having some standing desk set up and like, Rex is like in a little bassinet thing over there and I'm trying to like work when he's napping.
01:10:55.872 --> 01:11:05.536
there was no limits to the yeah, which you should do when it's your own company.
01:11:07.275 --> 01:11:12.786
When it's somebody else's company, you should have limits.
01:11:12.786 --> 01:11:17.319
Yeah, if you work as hard for yourself as you worked for others, what would happen?
01:11:17.319 --> 01:11:23.382
But you do, almost to the point of hallucination, work really hard for this company.
01:11:23.382 --> 01:11:25.100
You end up moving to LA.
01:11:25.100 --> 01:11:25.890
Yep.
01:11:26.010 --> 01:11:26.890
Yep.
01:11:28.110 --> 01:11:28.451
Yeah.
01:11:28.451 --> 01:11:29.671
So we moved to LA.
01:11:29.671 --> 01:11:33.873
So my wife's a dramatic writer for film and television.
01:11:33.873 --> 01:11:39.756
And so it was her lifelong dream to live in LA and pursue that career.
01:11:39.756 --> 01:11:41.386
And so we were fortunate enough to do that.
01:11:41.386 --> 01:11:44.597
So we moved to Santa Monica, which is where we are now.
01:11:44.939 --> 01:11:52.231
And she embarks on kind of building a career as a professional writer, which is coming to fruition.
01:11:52.231 --> 01:11:53.492
That's very exciting.
01:11:53.760 --> 01:11:54.470
That's very exciting.
01:11:54.470 --> 01:11:57.123
And your internet media company...
01:12:00.670 --> 01:12:02.091
less exciting.
01:12:02.202 --> 01:12:02.832
man.
01:12:02.832 --> 01:12:03.293
Yeah.
01:12:03.293 --> 01:12:11.855
So what happens is this is 2020, George Floyd.
01:12:11.978 --> 01:12:18.085
casual year, nothing happened, very under the radar, forgettable year 2020.
01:12:18.085 --> 01:12:19.064
Yeah.
01:12:19.086 --> 01:12:38.118
And so there were, this happened at a number of these companies where they truly kind of imploded where the reports were surfaced of employees being treated unfairly, toxic workplace culture.
01:12:38.559 --> 01:12:42.060
And so that started to happen in real time.
01:12:43.314 --> 01:12:52.250
And it was, but nobody was in the office, which I think must have been part of it on some level, right?
01:12:52.250 --> 01:12:54.131
It must have been part of it.
01:12:54.136 --> 01:13:01.274
Like maybe that separation gave people the separation to speak up or yeah, okay.
01:13:01.274 --> 01:13:24.390
And I think the challenge was, and this was actually mentioned on a previous Journey Lines episode where this division between the kind of the values that an organization espouses externally versus the actual on the ground business practices internally.
01:13:25.671 --> 01:13:27.543
Yeah, when those aren't aligned, is.
01:13:27.543 --> 01:13:29.256
It's tough for employees.
01:13:29.256 --> 01:13:31.689
The companies typically implode.
01:13:31.689 --> 01:13:35.395
It sounds like this might have been a little predictable.
01:13:35.395 --> 01:13:36.055
Yeah.
01:13:36.055 --> 01:13:50.338
And so, and, and the challenge with a lot of these, these companies is they are chasing kind of like CPM and they're, they're chasing ad dollars.
01:13:50.599 --> 01:13:57.121
And so they just need to produce more and more and more content for, for less and less and less money.
01:13:57.400 --> 01:14:00.811
And there were some people editorially that.
01:14:00.811 --> 01:14:06.466
I think really tried to hold the line in terms of a standard of work.
01:14:07.707 --> 01:14:18.134
But there was also, I think, a real push to devalue the content that was being made.
01:14:18.134 --> 01:14:29.931
And the people that were making it were oftentimes underpaid, worked really, really hard, kind of becomes like a click farm sort of thing.
01:14:31.054 --> 01:14:34.923
And so I think that's, you know, that was what was happening.
01:14:34.923 --> 01:14:52.753
And I think there was also from the management standpoint, there was a lot of, there was, you know, oversights, let's put it that way in terms of, the way that, employees were treated for various different reasons, some of that coming down to race.
01:14:54.154 --> 01:14:58.989
and so it became a really.
01:14:58.989 --> 01:15:01.729
really negative place.
01:15:02.510 --> 01:15:18.529
And yeah, and so was like, again, it was like, man, at certain points I've worked so hard for this place and for this brand that for a little while, I have to say, like, I really actually believed in the brand for a little while.
01:15:18.529 --> 01:15:25.604
And then it began to see like, this is not what I thought it was.
01:15:25.822 --> 01:15:27.854
that vision gets shattered.
01:15:27.854 --> 01:15:33.079
You're starting to face some harsh realities about this media company imploding.
01:15:33.261 --> 01:15:38.814
And then before it finally implodes, they get acquired.
01:15:38.814 --> 01:15:39.694
acquired.
01:15:39.694 --> 01:15:40.115
Yes.
01:15:40.115 --> 01:15:42.756
And we get poured it over to another company.
01:15:47.020 --> 01:15:47.310
man.
01:15:47.310 --> 01:15:51.864
Yeah.
01:15:51.864 --> 01:16:00.131
It's like it's it's tricky to talk about because I actually liked a lot of the people, a lot of the people that were amazing in both places.
01:16:00.131 --> 01:16:01.552
Amazing, amazing people.
01:16:01.552 --> 01:16:03.283
Amazing, amazing people.
01:16:03.942 --> 01:16:13.326
but I think same thing where it's like, business practices can't support the aspirations of the brand.
01:16:13.326 --> 01:16:14.846
guess you put it that way.
01:16:15.067 --> 01:16:32.435
And, I find that, I'm not comfortable, like with the, with the volume of work and with the compensation.
01:16:32.435 --> 01:16:45.073
and with any sense that there's a trajectory here that's going to be good for me, if that makes sense.
01:16:45.273 --> 01:16:46.332
Yeah.
01:16:47.594 --> 01:17:01.096
And again, there were some wonderful people there, but those were some hard times, because it was also like, I didn't even choose this place, and now I'm here.
01:17:01.096 --> 01:17:01.935
Yeah.
01:17:02.764 --> 01:17:09.127
But now also, my wife's changing careers, so supporting her, and we've got a kid.
01:17:09.127 --> 01:17:11.380
And so it's like, well, this is what you do.
01:17:11.380 --> 01:17:12.251
This is what you do.
01:17:12.251 --> 01:17:17.170
And during this whole time, you're still working on a documentary.
01:17:17.170 --> 01:17:17.560
Yeah.
01:17:17.560 --> 01:17:20.570
And that was the thing that was like keeping me.
01:17:20.570 --> 01:17:24.431
That was like the kind of the candle that I was holding, you know?
01:17:24.953 --> 01:17:25.632
Yeah.
01:17:25.632 --> 01:17:31.114
It was like, well, at least there's this, you know, at least there's this like this good thing.
01:17:31.935 --> 01:17:41.408
and so having that made, made these other elements that were far more unsavory like palatable.
01:17:41.886 --> 01:17:43.942
and you finish your documentary.
01:17:44.909 --> 01:17:46.453
The process of recovering.
01:17:46.453 --> 01:17:47.533
Yeah.
01:17:47.934 --> 01:17:57.902
Which, you know, was fortunate enough to kind of bring in some incredible filmmakers to work with to help me do that.
01:17:58.162 --> 01:18:03.176
And the feeling of having something done.
01:18:03.176 --> 01:18:14.215
So we were able to find financing through Germany, through a German television company that ended up paying for it, which was really cool.
01:18:14.215 --> 01:18:17.315
And that's where it actually like launched.
01:18:17.315 --> 01:18:21.037
It launched in Germany first, which was really interesting.
01:18:21.037 --> 01:18:25.198
And it was amazing to get feedback from German people.
01:18:26.760 --> 01:18:30.042
Yeah, that was amazing.
01:18:30.561 --> 01:18:40.115
And so, and the thing I will say about it also is the, there's two, there's two elements of, of the experience of completing it and putting it into the world.
01:18:40.305 --> 01:18:48.279
One is like the actual feedback from viewers who are like in Europe watching this thing that you've spent years and years and years working on.
01:18:48.279 --> 01:18:51.911
That was an amazing, amazing experience.
01:18:51.911 --> 01:19:00.213
And it also kind of brought my relationship with Marsha to a very special place.
01:19:00.673 --> 01:19:06.686
And so she is now like, I mean, she always would have been, but she is really somebody that I talk to all the time.
01:19:06.686 --> 01:19:10.039
And like, it's like, I just, you know, you have this person.
01:19:10.039 --> 01:19:21.412
that is like so wise and strong and powerful that you have like complete trust in and respect for that I can just call anytime.
01:19:21.412 --> 01:19:24.787
That's really powerful.
01:19:25.376 --> 01:19:27.000
That is gorgeous.
01:19:27.000 --> 01:19:35.396
And how wild that that came from you interviewing your dad so you could have a more intimate conversation.
01:19:35.438 --> 01:19:36.515
I'm blown away.
01:19:36.515 --> 01:19:37.274
Yeah.
01:19:37.274 --> 01:19:41.497
And so it's it has had a life in this world.
01:19:41.497 --> 01:19:47.078
So part of her story is that she was raised in a very conservative Christian world.
01:19:47.158 --> 01:20:04.525
And it that film has had a life in this community of people who were raised in super conservative Christian communities where traumatic things happened in terms of sexual abuse.
01:20:04.765 --> 01:20:08.726
and they basically had to escape.
01:20:09.328 --> 01:20:17.390
And so there's a world of people who are kind of like, they kind of consider themselves refugees from these communities.
01:20:17.689 --> 01:20:30.399
And so that's highly gratifying to be able to say like, if you want to know how to do it, you could watch that and she did it, if that makes sense.
01:20:30.399 --> 01:20:34.296
Well, I feel like I know what I'm adding to my queue this weekend.
01:20:34.380 --> 01:20:37.492
Well, I will say that's really that's that's kind of you.
01:20:37.492 --> 01:20:46.297
I will say like it's it it's like one of the most optimistic stories I've ever come across in my entire life.
01:20:46.719 --> 01:20:47.759
Truly.
01:20:48.359 --> 01:20:50.942
But there's some there's some rough stuff in the beginning.
01:20:50.942 --> 01:20:56.444
You know, it's like she's person who's confronting some really traumatic things.
01:20:56.444 --> 01:20:58.527
And we try to be real about what those things are.
01:20:58.527 --> 01:21:00.868
So I'll say that.
01:21:00.868 --> 01:21:01.769
Yeah.
01:21:02.710 --> 01:21:03.051
Yeah.
01:21:03.051 --> 01:21:04.853
your documentary.
01:21:06.215 --> 01:21:08.226
And this is where our journey lines cross.
01:21:08.226 --> 01:21:11.340
We're getting kind of close to our confluence.
01:21:11.860 --> 01:21:13.507
Firstly, Polina.
01:21:13.507 --> 01:21:14.828
Hi.
01:21:14.967 --> 01:21:17.132
I remember when that little nugget was born.
01:21:17.132 --> 01:21:17.853
yeah.
01:21:17.853 --> 01:21:18.314
Yeah.
01:21:18.314 --> 01:21:27.041
So I think what happened is, so, someone who was an investor in refinery reached out to me and said, Hey, I'm, I've invested in this startup.
01:21:27.041 --> 01:21:28.582
want to meet the founders?
01:21:29.243 --> 01:21:31.844
and I was like super unhappy where I was.
01:21:32.104 --> 01:21:43.265
And so, I, you know, I took the meeting and, I thought that there's there, the, I liked her.
01:21:43.265 --> 01:21:48.179
a lot, the investor was like, had a lot of respect for her and she's, she's a remarkable person.
01:21:48.179 --> 01:21:52.792
She has, she just has like a great track record.
01:21:52.792 --> 01:22:12.905
And so, and I was also just like, so interested in like an enterprise that like had a different business model where like a lot of, again, like a lot of these internet media companies, like the business, if it's an ad driven media model, it's really hard.
01:22:14.210 --> 01:22:23.170
And, and so a model where you have like a direct relationship with your customers, where they're like buying something from you.
01:22:23.170 --> 01:22:31.109
And in this case, was, education, like classes, exactly online creative learning.
01:22:31.770 --> 01:22:36.029
and they were, they were people were spending, they were expensive.
01:22:36.770 --> 01:22:42.310
And, and again, I think this was also sort of a product of the pandemic where people are at home and they're looking to change their lives.
01:22:42.310 --> 01:22:43.398
And so.
01:22:44.653 --> 01:22:59.405
Yeah, it was a really great moment in time when you couldn't leave your home and maybe you wanted, you had some extra time on your hands to focus on learning how to build a custom pair of sneakers or taking on a baking class.
01:22:59.405 --> 01:22:59.907
Right.
01:22:59.907 --> 01:23:02.149
Bettering yourself in some way.
01:23:02.149 --> 01:23:12.064
So this tiny little startup with a lot of green to career folks recruits you to join.
01:23:12.220 --> 01:23:16.747
And I'm excited to hear your perspective from this time.
01:23:17.086 --> 01:23:17.975
man.
01:23:18.876 --> 01:23:29.479
Well, it's one of those things where like you you show up and then you like kind of you recognize like what's really happening.
01:23:30.238 --> 01:23:35.400
And and I think, you know, like I think there was a lot of cultural challenges there.
01:23:36.621 --> 01:24:00.287
And I think that in addition I think that the enterprise was capitalized in this way that put enormous pressure to deliver outsize results where it was like, I think it was capitalized at like a billion dollar valuation or something like that.
01:24:00.394 --> 01:24:07.467
We, yeah, it felt like, my perspective, we were chasing after something that was unattainable.
01:24:07.467 --> 01:24:12.390
And unfortunately, the people who were pushing us to chase it were the people who held the checkbook.
01:24:13.171 --> 01:24:13.556
Yeah.
01:24:13.556 --> 01:24:14.306
of putting it.
01:24:14.306 --> 01:24:22.860
I remember at one point doing my own math and I was like, so how many users would we need to acquire to reach a billion dollar valuation?
01:24:22.860 --> 01:24:30.573
And I went through like the math and it was like, wow, that's a lot more than we have.
01:24:34.355 --> 01:24:40.293
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is a lot of users.
01:24:40.293 --> 01:24:45.216
I'm buying a lot of classes.
01:24:45.256 --> 01:24:46.796
so and it was interesting.
01:24:46.796 --> 01:24:57.212
was like, so there are some there were some they did, I think, and there's probably part of partly some that you contributed to, but like they had some there's some amazing people there.
01:24:57.481 --> 01:24:58.274
For sure.
01:24:58.274 --> 01:25:00.137
I mean, some of the best people I've ever worked with.
01:25:00.137 --> 01:25:04.979
yeah, and so, and that was also part of the appeal initially was like, this is fun.
01:25:04.979 --> 01:25:07.380
It's, really fun as you know.
01:25:07.760 --> 01:25:08.841
Yeah, it's fine.
01:25:08.841 --> 01:25:09.900
was fun.
01:25:09.900 --> 01:25:11.041
It was fun.
01:25:11.060 --> 01:25:11.680
Yeah.
01:25:11.680 --> 01:25:16.403
To be with like, it's like, there's all of these like really, really accomplished people.
01:25:16.403 --> 01:25:19.884
And it's this very idealistic mission.
01:25:21.043 --> 01:25:23.625
And there seems to be a market for it.
01:25:23.625 --> 01:25:25.005
That's kind of proved out.
01:25:25.005 --> 01:25:28.756
And so now it's about kind of growing and scaling.
01:25:29.055 --> 01:25:34.661
So like every startup, you grow, you scale successfully, you go public and make a million dollars.
01:25:34.661 --> 01:25:36.029
No, no.
01:25:36.029 --> 01:25:37.840
And I think that was was part of it too.
01:25:37.840 --> 01:25:50.130
It was like, like, you know, having having, you know, equity in in something that where the equity could actually turn into something valuable.
01:25:50.524 --> 01:25:54.226
It's a new age of playing the lottery, truly.
01:25:54.387 --> 01:25:58.851
That you, especially when you believe in something, you see the potential.
01:25:59.774 --> 01:26:01.145
But that's not what really happened.
01:26:01.145 --> 01:26:02.396
The startup imploded.
01:26:02.396 --> 01:26:04.478
That's what your journey line says, yeah.
01:26:04.498 --> 01:26:05.751
Startup imploded.
01:26:05.751 --> 01:26:06.811
it did.
01:26:07.192 --> 01:26:07.692
Yeah.
01:26:07.692 --> 01:26:23.449
And I think it was subsumed by the, there was that shift in the macroeconomic world where all of a sudden, money was expensive and interest rates were super high.
01:26:23.449 --> 01:26:32.596
I think broadly, I think there's also the time where like a lot of tech companies, the publicly traded ones, their share price dropped considerably.
01:26:32.596 --> 01:26:41.122
And one thing I didn't realize is that there's a kind of continuum from the investor space between what's private and publicly held companies.
01:26:41.122 --> 01:26:47.655
And it's like, if the publicly held ones don't do well, it changes the perceived value of the privately held ones.
01:26:48.197 --> 01:26:51.918
That is something I didn't know, but it seems to be the case.
01:26:52.158 --> 01:26:53.920
so, yeah.
01:26:54.341 --> 01:26:57.761
So anyway, Yeah, I think you're right.
01:26:57.761 --> 01:27:05.545
Like the people who are holding the checkbook were like, well, actually, what if we just because remember, there was years of runway and was like, what if we just don't?
01:27:06.605 --> 01:27:07.966
What if we just don't?
01:27:11.648 --> 01:27:13.177
Well, no.
01:27:13.177 --> 01:27:17.990
then so then and that because I remember I Gillian was pregnant.
01:27:17.990 --> 01:27:19.541
I went away on paternity.
01:27:19.541 --> 01:27:26.577
And when I came back from paternity, it was like, this is this is going to go away.
01:27:26.577 --> 01:27:33.324
was one large change right when you came back and then we hobbled along for a little bit longer.
01:27:33.324 --> 01:27:35.326
yeah, this is going to go away.
01:27:35.926 --> 01:27:39.929
so then, you know, it's like, cool.
01:27:39.929 --> 01:27:43.051
that's like a mortgage in two kids.
01:27:45.552 --> 01:27:49.496
and it, and like, yeah.
01:27:50.356 --> 01:27:56.831
and, and, and, and, you know, the, the, startups going away and there's, there's like equity things going away.
01:27:56.831 --> 01:27:57.150
So, okay.
01:27:57.150 --> 01:27:58.640
What are you going to do?
01:27:58.640 --> 01:28:05.251
what does one do, asking for myself, when they get laid off from a startup?
01:28:05.251 --> 01:28:06.596
What do do next?
01:28:06.596 --> 01:28:07.617
Yeah.
01:28:08.899 --> 01:28:18.326
Well, you use, you soul search and I think there's kind of two, there's two ways to proceed.
01:28:19.306 --> 01:28:23.350
One is you like get right back out there in a job market, if that's what you're looking to do.
01:28:23.711 --> 01:28:32.216
And I think at this point in my career, I had, this is like the second implosion, you know, they weren't that far apart.
01:28:32.216 --> 01:28:32.873
Yeah.
01:28:32.873 --> 01:28:33.793
apart.
01:28:34.533 --> 01:28:43.594
And I had worked really hard in these places and they both imploded and they weren't mine.
01:28:43.594 --> 01:28:54.314
And I had this sense of like, you know, and also like on some level, I didn't agree necessarily with how they were run the whole time.
01:28:54.314 --> 01:28:54.654
Right.
01:28:54.654 --> 01:28:59.054
And that's a polite understatement, but it was just like, was like, I don't know.
01:28:59.054 --> 01:29:01.662
I don't don't, didn't sit right with me.
01:29:02.099 --> 01:29:11.827
and so I thought, I think, you know, you only live once and exactly, you should work hard for yourself.
01:29:11.827 --> 01:29:22.296
And, and, I think it would be kind of foolish to, given the two lessons I was just taught, right.
01:29:22.296 --> 01:29:26.819
And that was taught them with, there was no ambiguity about the lesson, about the lesson.
01:29:26.819 --> 01:29:29.681
was like, you can.
01:29:29.750 --> 01:29:34.993
you can contribute the best of your years of your life to something and it can go away, just go away.
01:29:35.033 --> 01:29:37.635
And so I'm like, don't think I should do that again.
01:29:38.895 --> 01:29:45.739
So I went through a process of trying to figure out what I was going to do.
01:29:47.921 --> 01:30:02.761
one of the things that was really helpful in that is that it is kind of like the journey line project where I reached out to an old friend and he sort of was asking me, what are you going to do?
01:30:02.764 --> 01:30:13.110
And, he challenged me to do a piece of writing where, I, I went back and I wrote down like everything I'd ever done.
01:30:13.551 --> 01:30:19.975
Like sent from probably, probably like even high school, just everything you've ever done.
01:30:19.975 --> 01:30:29.721
Like, like from a creative or professional standpoint, not, not romantically or personally, but like just, you know, what's your professional output and.
01:30:30.198 --> 01:30:30.898
I did that.
01:30:30.898 --> 01:30:40.103
And then as I was writing, just listened for listened emotionally for like, what's coming up, you know, like, when is what's your body responding to?
01:30:40.564 --> 01:30:57.591
And it was all of these things where people were coming together in person for something and where there was kind of, there was some sort of learning that was happening, some sort of, discovery, some sort of feeling of wonder.
01:30:58.164 --> 01:31:00.394
and some of it was in that science classroom.
01:31:01.802 --> 01:31:04.024
Some of it was at the dog show party.
01:31:04.024 --> 01:31:10.055
Some of it was at the, you know, the those events that I did later.
01:31:10.055 --> 01:31:14.859
And there was always kind of like this element, this thread of storytelling running through it.
01:31:14.859 --> 01:31:26.804
But it was also something that had a real like commercial or economic underpinning to it so that it was sustainable and real.
01:31:26.837 --> 01:31:30.167
fat stacks of cash coming out of the beard competition.
01:31:31.215 --> 01:31:31.534
Yeah.
01:31:31.534 --> 01:31:33.796
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
01:31:33.836 --> 01:31:42.520
And so, and I've been working for these places where like the business models came and went, you know, and ended up being sort of vaporous.
01:31:42.640 --> 01:32:01.748
And so I think an enterprise that has like a commercial underpinning to it that is real, where you have a direct relationship with people that you're providing a service for, which is sort of learning discovery and play.
01:32:02.622 --> 01:32:04.854
Which leads you to co-founding.
01:32:04.854 --> 01:32:08.355
Yeah, so it leads me to co-founding a company.
01:32:12.279 --> 01:32:17.161
I don't know how, like, where we are in terms of time.
01:32:18.824 --> 01:32:21.997
Well, you've got to pick up your kid in about 15 minutes, so.
01:32:22.582 --> 01:32:23.462
wow.
01:32:26.284 --> 01:32:33.524
Well, will I will say this, that one of things that happened this year is one of my co-founders died.
01:32:35.658 --> 01:32:47.225
And I think it's important to say in terms of like these journey, this idea of like, well, you end up at this place and it's like, you know, smooth sailing from here on out.
01:32:47.225 --> 01:32:50.126
And that wasn't the case.
01:32:50.126 --> 01:32:54.929
so this past year, her name is Caroline, Caroline Prue.
01:32:55.449 --> 01:32:57.711
She's an incredible, incredible person.
01:32:57.711 --> 01:33:02.073
was so lucky to meet her and to get a chance to work with her.
01:33:02.497 --> 01:33:11.453
And So we kind of co-created this idea and then she died this year, like in the spring.
01:33:11.895 --> 01:33:24.743
And so it was, that really challenged me to my core in terms of the pursuit of this idea and co-founding this company.
01:33:24.743 --> 01:33:34.640
And what ended up happening is, I started to, this might sound strange, but I started to hear her voice.
01:33:35.681 --> 01:33:40.585
And it was a really positive thing, actually.
01:33:40.585 --> 01:33:45.337
This is after a period of mourning, but it was a really positive thing to sort of be able to hear her.
01:33:45.337 --> 01:33:54.514
And the thing that she sent me this voice memo from her hospital bed, we were sending voice, I was sending her voice memos when she was in the hospital.
01:33:54.574 --> 01:33:59.948
And she sent me this voice memo that I received, her partner sent it to me after she had passed away.
01:34:00.082 --> 01:34:07.844
And it said, collaboration and love are the true tools of an artist.
01:34:09.264 --> 01:34:11.345
And those were her last words.
01:34:11.944 --> 01:34:35.104
And I felt like I feel now going into 2025 more grounded in the conviction of, you know, building experiences where people can come together to play and to learn and to have feelings.
01:34:36.500 --> 01:34:38.932
Where can people find out more about this?
01:34:39.721 --> 01:34:45.042
So we have a site set up at site seer dot fun companies called site seer.
01:34:46.123 --> 01:34:54.206
And we have some a little temp site that we made with Caroline.
01:34:54.206 --> 01:35:03.689
We've we ran some audience testing and some experiences in partnership with Columbia University at Lincoln Center and had some incredible feedback.
01:35:03.788 --> 01:35:15.658
And so I'm now We're in the process of fundraising and we're going to be taking implementation prototypes and bringing them into the world in 2025.
01:35:17.328 --> 01:35:18.847
Amazing.
01:35:18.847 --> 01:35:23.898
I am really excited to see what that looks like and let me know where those prototypes are.
01:35:23.898 --> 01:35:24.582
I've got a car.
01:35:24.582 --> 01:35:25.545
I can go places.
01:35:25.545 --> 01:35:26.265
you.
01:35:26.265 --> 01:35:28.256
Well, we might maybe we'll bring them to you.
01:35:28.282 --> 01:35:31.033
Ooh, yeah, bring them up to Napa, please.
01:35:32.735 --> 01:35:36.458
Jonathan, that brings us to the end of your journey line.
01:35:36.800 --> 01:35:38.240
What do you think ends next?
01:35:38.240 --> 01:35:39.462
What did we miss?
01:35:39.462 --> 01:35:41.962
Anything else you want to tell the world?
01:35:42.050 --> 01:35:44.832
Hmm.
01:35:44.832 --> 01:35:51.948
The thing I would want to tell the world is as you are contemplating your own journey line.
01:35:54.274 --> 01:35:55.721
Be kind to yourself.
01:36:00.810 --> 01:36:02.181
Well, I've got nothing else to add.
01:36:02.181 --> 01:36:04.322
Jonathan, thank you so much for joining.
01:36:04.322 --> 01:36:10.462
You can check out all of Jonathan's information in the show notes and we'll see you next time.
01:36:10.967 --> 01:36:12.000
Thank you, Kim.
01:36:12.105 --> 01:36:13.038
Thank you.