When Should You Stop Going Along With Your Group? | Philosophy Yap #18

Damien: Division in itself is not a bad thing. I definitely want to divide myself from bad, evil people.
Josh: they just go with whatever's popular or whatever they hear in their echo chamber, and they're like, all the voices I heard today said this thing. It must be right. we have a shared value system and that leads to a shared mission so that we can now have a shared purpose to do these things.
Damien: But you need a good conception of the good and that's the problem.
Josh: Yes, it's got to be We're talking about leadership. And how politics is helpful or not helpful, what do you think we could do to connect these these two points? Because you you're not wrong. I agree with you. People can be violent,
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: they can, but you know, government has the monopoly on force. So what is it about the constitution and the monopoly on force that we're using to like build towards something? What is what is it about that that you like, that you want to emphasize, to say This is the thing that we're working towards. And I we got there. We we got we got real close there with that more perfect union. I'm like, yes, yes, all right. This is a shared value, we have a shared mission, we're working toward this together as a country. And I think that's if we could focus a lot more on that kind of point, this is what the middle class is built on. We have a shared vision of what we're all trying to work on. When when we say the politics, the political party, Democrats or Republicans. are building a stronger middle class. That's what we mean. We want these people working toward the same ideal. And it's not perfect, meaning we're not already there. It's not complete. We're not finished. But it's a direction that we're all working towards. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I can get down with that.
Damien: yeah. I'm fine. The thing about it, I like the middle class as a result, not as really a purpose. Right? Because for me, if you look if you work toward a a a strong middle class as a purpose, that's to me, that's just gonna end up in collectivism. Right. but if you look at it as a byproduct, like the mi a strong middle class is a byproduct of something else, then there's a possibility of something Moral there, in my opinion. Right. and to to do that, to do that in an American context, there's a a responsibility, there's a personal responsibility that has to exist for that to
Josh: Right.
Damien: even happen. And the and part of the reason that we can't we can't sustain a middle class is because people have given up on those responsibilities, but the people who were supposed to teach them about those responsibilities didn't do that part. so they don't really know what it is that's happening. And it and it makes and it's like a it's like a double whammy because it makes you vulnerable to people. Who want to take advantage. so basically you don't know how to compete. You you don't know how to make use your judgment well. And so people just at the top of just like selling you shit, and you don't have any choice. You don't well, you have choice, but you don't have any wisdom to know what to value and what not to value. And so you just keep giving them your money. and so
Josh: Right. If you wanna have this judgment and if you wanna have a healthy competition, it requires active development. People have to move through stages so that they know what to judge judge based off. They need to know the criteria to judge they need to know the context, the history, so they can say I need I can make an informed decision instead of just guessing.
Damien: Yeah, yeah. But it seems like you're blaming the victim, but if you don't have a good understanding of what the the standard is I I wouldn't even say that I wouldn't say that you blaming the victim, it's just that you it's like, hey, th this is base level, this is how this works. This this works with this standard. Yeah, this is required. And
Josh: was required. Yes. It's like I don't I'm not mad at you. I don't consider you less than. I don't think you've lost any dignity. I just think you really just don't know. You have not been you've exposed this idea before and so you are making all these same mistakes again. Hey, we
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: don't have to do this this way.
Damien: Yeah. Yeah, so it's tr it's troubling 'cause you gotta kinda you gotta I wouldn't say play both sides, but you gotta be able to deliver that message. And it's difficult to deliver that message today because people take a lot of things personally.
Josh: Right, right.
Damien: Any correction, people take it personally.
Josh: Yes. It's like, you've judged you have now judged me to be a terrible person and condemn me to be a mor a moral ingrate and and now I'm not even worthy of respect. It's like no, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm I'm I get it. People who have said that in the past have ch people who've treated people poorly in the past have said things like this. I hear you, and that made you feel bad and now you have that same feeling. I get it. Okay. Let's back up a second. What if we're both on the same side and we're both trying to tackle the problem? What if it isn't you versus me? What if it isn't one power versus another? What if we just focus really quick on just humanity versus this legitimate problem impeding our development? What would it take for us to get over this problem?
Damien: But I can bring up a perfect example of this right now. just kinda explain it before I do that. Because I don't know if you've caught have you I I don't even know. Do you know this dude? He's an actor named Da’Vinchi. Have you heard of this dude? Okay, I don't know who he is. but apparently I think he was in What's 50 Cents Joint? Power. Maybe he was in power and something else. Another show. Basically he was on Cam Newton's podcast recently. And Cam Newton brought up to him or asked him a question about He asked him a question about why why do Does it why does it seem that black actors from other countries get opportunities before black American actors? I think that's what he asked him. And what happened was he Answered the question from like a I guess his his family is from Not Haiti, Haiti, Haitian, he's Haitian. Right. And so he kinda and I kinda wanna just play because it's like I can't really set it up well.
Josh: Yes, he's in the Black Mafia family show as Southwest.
Damien: BMF, BMF, not power, BMF. Mm-hmm.
Josh: Had some had some comments about black Americans and not very flattering.
Damien: I mean s So I'll just give you the question.
Josh: You can play it. It's alright. I it seems like it didn't work out great for him.
Damien: It but I interpreted a I I'll g I'll let you see how I interpret it it.
Josh: Okay.
speaker-0: We are going to try to not respond and react to clippy clippy. To try to give as much context as possible. And we'll talk about some other stuff too. I'll have some things I want to bring up. I'm sure you some things you want to bring up too. But Cam Newton asks him the question. It's important for me to say that this question is about very specifically about British actors acting in America. As Americans competing with American black actors, American born black actors. That's very important. This answer
speaker-1: Yes, no no, go ahead, go ahead.
speaker-0: That is the question that he is being asked.
speaker-1: Yes, the question is centered around British black actors versus black American actors.
speaker-2: Yes.
speaker-0: The specificity of the question is very important
speaker-1: That is not yes.
speaker-2: Okay. Yes.
speaker-0: All so this is the answer.
speaker-3: Humans are becoming like more incompetent. And America is like producing like we baby our kids like in a way that is like unheard of. you got people that's twenty five, thirty, thirty-five, these are kids. They can't do their own laundry. They can't wipe their own ass. for me, I'm fortunate, I was born here, but my parents aren't from here. My grandma raised me and she didn't speak English. So at home was Haiti. And in the real world, you know what I'm saying? Then it was like America, but I I had work ethic. I was determined. I started I could take care of myself like fully at like eight years old. But in America, no shade to you guys, the way the c culture have like moved majority of its citizens, it's like you're just incompetent for a really long time. Do you think that that's like that's a a country thing or a personal thing? I think that's the I think this country promotes that. I think I think cause This country w what this country promote, I I don't think it promote like us like really like being able to think critically and being like hard workers, being able to think outside the box, right? And usually people I me don't don't get me wrong, other countries they have their things too, but I just think like we're just more ba like when you're in America, you have such a lack of exposure on what's happening outside of the world. Because you don't gotta care about any other country. But every other country is like, I want to be America. We got the best football, best basketball, best rappers, best actors, best. So it's just like they're like, yo, keeping up with us. But it's like, you don't need to get what you gonna keep up with the XFL? Can I disagree? You think, my goodness, please do. But but I would say, but that's why, that's why I do think some producers probably just like, you know what, we want an overseas actor because they're probably gonna be more focused. They're probably gonna be less worried about being a celebrity or influencer. And probably just locking it on a
speaker-0: Okay, so that's the full answer to that question in his entirety. Way to go, Jade. Rachel. What do you make of that clip? Da Vinci.
speaker-1: Well, I don't want to talk about it in the whole I listened to the whole interview. So did I. And the reason I it's hard for me to talk in the clip because a lot of the discourse is happening online as people are saying, you guys just clipped it, you didn't listen to the whole thing, which obviously on higher learning we do that, which is why it was so important for you to put the question that was presented to him into context. Because although in that answer he's saying American or you guys, which he was born here. Okay, he's Haitian American. That's also important to note. He is responding to it about black so his c his comment is about black Americans. You can't separate the two because that's the question. Now if that's not what he meant to do, he should have said it. But that's how the question was asked and he answered within that way. Was having this conversation with I was with two of my friends this weekend whose parents are first generation, like they immigrated. And
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: we literally had the conversation about how they were, because there's so much more in this interview that still applies to some of this, about how their parents viewed black Americans, how they were, there were certain stereotypes that were there, things that they were taught. And
speaker-2: As second generation immigrants, I'm not sure if that's how you say it but a second generation here, they are more like black Americans, having been born here and grown up here. And so they they we were having this conversation about more of the responsibility just to dispel some of those stereotypes and that thinking that comes from that first generation as they were born here and are more like black Americans. I'm not saying that they have the same history. Yeah, not saying that they have the same history and and ancestry in that sense, but they are they're coming up the same way. because they were born here. Yeah, I listened to that and obviously there's so many generalizations that are made. But the most obvious things to me are there's two things that happened with that in the interview that that come from that answer. One is obviously he's a successful actor, and everything most of the things that he has been in, it seems like now he's going to be in Chicago Fire, which is more of a white show. Things he's been in have been black American shows. They've been based on real life black Americans, real stories. And so you have built your career on black Americans. So the contradiction of calling them, you know, saying like in incompetent or lazy when the art that you are creating is based off of black Americans doesn't make sense. You also been on shows that Fifty Cent has been behind a black American, that Tyler Perry has been behind a black American, and you compliment their work ethic and who they are. But then in the same sense, you're being critical of black Americans. There's another part in the interview where he talks about how Blacks that are not from here have a certain view of black Americans. And he says that it's not right. But then in this answer, you're perpetuating some of the stereotypes that the generation before you had. So how on one end can you say, this isn't right? But then on the other end, you're literally doing that exact same thing. So it it's a bunch of con there are a bunch of contradictions within it. There's a bunch of generalizations that don't really make sense. And it makes me think of the question, which is what really has happens with the diaspora I always mess up word. Diaspora. Yes. Divorce. Because I always want to say diaspora. Diaspora. I could diaspora, remember. Instead diaspora, it's always Yeah, maybe not. But this is the question that always I'm left with when we do this. Who benefits when black people argue over who suffered more or who works harder or who's smarter? We aren't doing ourselves any kind of benefit when we're having these arguments and letting other people watch us have them. When we're trying to one-up each other, we're trying to better. We're trying say, hey, we're more than you. We're better than you when it comes to this. That doesn't benefit us as a whole. So why do we continue to do that?
speaker-0: Right, because well, the reason why is because one of the tenets of white supremacy or any type of supremacy, any type of power structure, is the internal squabbling for resources that happens when you deprive people. And when people are up against other people for resources, they have to invent mythology as to the reasons why they deserve them. Mm-hmm. And when you are an immigrant, any type of immigrant, one of the first lessons that you will learn is that while safety inside of the black community might be what you need to do. The only way to not actually be a victim of white supremacy is in proximity to whiteness. So prox
Damien: Yeah, so I think that gives you enough of the conversation for me.
Josh: I think so. It demonstrates a point.
Damien: Yeah. So I'm You just yeah, you just tell me what you
Josh: I mean he brings up a good point. He says it in a terrible way. But and like they I think the issue that he gets at is the idea of merit and virtue. I think he has this idea of there are real ways to achieve your values. There are real real ways to pursue the things that are important to you and the people who are diligent, who work hard, who persevere, who actively give their all to continually improve. that kind of hunger, that kind of consistency and that kind of excellence is something that's worth worth appreciating and worth working for. And that's something his family appreciated. That's something people who he saw and grew up with have a huge appreciation for. And that's an idea that a lot of the outside world has about America because America has so much affluence. And they're like, well America has all these things, they must they must have the virtue to maintain these things. And then when you get here, a lot of people get here and not everybody's trying that hard. Not everybody's hungry. Not everybody's even excellent. Some of these people are just, you know, hanging out. In fact,
Damien: Average.
Josh: it seems like the dominant value and the dominant mission of most Americans is comfort. Seems like comfort's the main thing they want. They don't care about being the best in the world. They want to make sure they are taken care of and feeling good. All the time. They want the best clothes and the best food and the best cars and they just wanna chill. They don't seem very eager to outperform anyone. They just wanna make sure that they're feeling good, which is, hedonism and there's nothing wrong with being safe and having your needs met. But when that becomes the overarching goal of a life in a way that it stops you from actively realizing your potential or even trying at all, then you're like, Okay, there's some there's some problems here. Now the way he went about saying it, I think that's where I would have some issues with the word choice because again, there's a lot of generalization, like the o there's an overgeneralization of the porter just saying like, well, this is all black Americans, and all black Americans just gave up and they're just not doing anything. And so if someone if if there is American producer who's clearly not a not not a black American producer. If there's a white American producer who wants to find a a actor with a good work ethic, gotta go outside the country and find somebody who's not so comfort focused. And I'm like, I hear what you're saying, but we're describing you're that's that's a overgeneralization and putting an American spin on something that is a character issue. And I'm like, that's not how that works. We've we have a lot of people, meaning there are the cream of the cre There are the top, you know, one percent, the talent talented tenth, whatever you want call there are people who outcompete everybody else. And they are actively trying. They are demonstrating merit. They are demonstrating virtue. Excellence is their goal, and they did better than most every other person in the world. Not just Americans, everybody. They outcompeted most people for this job. And so when he when when he paints the picture of This being an American problem, I'm like, we do have a problem in America about prioritizing comfort over excellence. I'll hear you that sure. But to say that is the reason why they would pick a outside actor, an outside a co an actor from o outside the country, I'm like, that's not the answer. But I do hear what you're saying. You are concerned about the comfort over excellence priority.
Damien: I agree to a certain extent. I think he just ans I think he answered the question however he felt like answering the question. That's
Josh: Yes.
Damien: that's what I think. And and the reason I'm bringing this up is because well, one thing I got into the comments and and for me, I'm just like, he gave an answer about Americans. He didn't really give an answer about black Americans. He kinda tacked that on at the end, really. That's pretty much what he did. And he and he and it was more of an indictment of, yo. Y'all are babies in America. And
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: and basically saying bigs and especially the black people are being baby too. That's that's what he's that's how I'm receiving it, more less. Y'all baby people here, and you definitely baby the black people here. That's that's how I heard it. but the reason why I brought that up is because what before I even brought that up is I was saying that people They are so easily offended by things. Right. And so
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: their responses is complete like it's damn all the standards of being good and right at stuff, be offended.
Josh: Mm-hmm. Right.
Damien: And like I can't I can't see the world like that. I can't like even if somebody were to, in my mind, unfairly judge me. I would see what part of this could I use in my life to get myself to a place where I need to be or be better. I'm not really so much worried about how this person sees me, because this person can't under normal circumstances, this person can't damage anything in my life. They what they think about me doesn't really mean anything in in my life, you know. and but they could be pointing out something that's valid, right? And that could be a KKK leader. And if he points out something that's valid, I'ma take the valid thing and I'ma leave the rest of his opinion, throw it out the window.
Josh: There you go, because you're using critical thinking. You're actively allowing some things that are helpful to stay and you're getting rid of the things that are not helpful. Eating the meat, leaving the bone, but that requires a different level of maturity.
Damien: Yeah, so th that that's my response to it because I and the the reason why this is important to me is because I'm I'm like, wow, how do people like that improve themselves constantly? Because if somebody throws out something that's helpful to you, it's critical. You know, like if they're being critical of you, but they're trying to help you, but you're oriented in a way where criticism is at first glance just like, man, this is this is hate, this is this is
Josh: Right.
Damien: bad. You should just, you shouldn't ever do that. Like, What does she say? She said, You're playing these parts that were played that were made for black people. And then you would say this? I mean, like, I don't know. Did do you take a loyalty? Like, I'm I can I can't be critical of anything because I'm playing this part. To me that what do you do with a society of people who adheres to that kind of logic? How do you improve any society that thinks like that? Now, maybe this is just majority thinking stuff. And everybody feels slighted. But to me this is like that's the it comes down to what the culture is, right? Because all right, I to and to try to give it a clearer example. I don't even know why my mind is going to church, but for whatever reason my mind is going to church. And let's say that there's a lot of people when with the preachers talking, they like, is he is he talking to me? Is he is he talking about me? And and I think a lot of people are like, I think maybe the the pastor's talking about me. Why is he talking about me? You know what I'm saying? And
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: but it takes some notion of In the culture to be like, you know what? I'ma accept that. I'ma accept that criticism. Or you might have a culture just be like, nah, man, you can't, you can't be critical of people in the mi in a way that makes them feel bad. So I just don't understand how, if you got their sentiment, like how It's like the bike when you're trying to ride it and then you stick a spoke in into it and then say, Hey, the bike is broken. I don't understand it. I don't I don't get it. That's just it's like working backwards. It's reverse psychology in some way. That's how I see it.
Josh: It's just solving a different problem. it's really being targeted at the wrong point. I mean, or a different point I'll say. And I think it's it's it's a Issue the issue in managing an internal conflict. Like people are trying to take care of their emotions and so every single criticism or critique or even every single observation is is taken as a personal attack. And so when you look at every single thing as an attack and the main virtue signal we have is getting offended. If that's what our if being offended is our is the way we you know signal virtue that The standard is just gonna keep leading toward immaturity. It doesn't allow for growth, it doesn't allow for change, it doesn't allow for any of that. All it allows is for you to say, I'm gonna stay dig in, I'm gonna defend, and I'm gonna attack anybody anything else people say about me, if it's not flattering, I'm gonna attack them. I only respond to flattery. Flattery is the only acceptable tuck. but that does that's not gonna allow you to get better. Why would you why would you try to get better? You think I'm not good? You think I'm not perfect already? Why would you say that? You're a bad person because you didn't clear and then and the offense continues and the cycle per persists. You you get you get it. Anyway, this
Damien: Mm.
Josh: is what people have have been taught. This is what is being rewarded. The more offended you get, the more we give you attention, the more attention you get, the more rewards and popularity and fame and Anyway, this is what we're getting. This is what the system has been geared towards.
Damien: And so to me this proves it supports his point.
Josh: It proves his point. Yes. Yeah.
Damien: Being babied, you know what I'm saying? It and to me, and the chariot on the top to me is that Dude was, in my opinion, is like he just had his white supremacy card. He just was like, yo, I'm gonna pull my white supremacy card because this
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: is, I've got to interject white supremacy into the story somehow.
Josh: he's making he's making a different point. he's not wrong. It's just not helpful or relevant at this main juncture at this point. this British gu Haitian dude this this Haitian dude has just told you this is how I outcompeted everybody else for this spot. I went and presented myself this way as a hard working, persistent, diligent guy who was gonna get the job done at any cost, and the producers like that. And they chose me Out of everybody else they could choose. This is how I won. And everybody else around me saw me. They saw me act in this role to do this thing. And instead of copying me so that they could get this role, they instead said, Why don't they just give it to us because we were here already? It's like you're missing the point. You're missing what the role needed. You're risk you're missing what the producer's values are, and you're missing what you could do to become. What you say you want. And I was just like, he was actually trying to help. He wasn't just being mean for no reason. And while he made a over he made a sweeping generalization statement about Americans being coddled, there is a point to that. There is something underneath that. There is a idea that most of the things that are marketed to us are focused on our comfort. And so that's not a secret. That's not a well, why would they why would you say that? It's like it's literally in the commercial. They're trying to make your life easier. Whereas other people
Damien: Right.
Josh: are trying to make their lives better. I can make trying to make themselves better in order they so they could be more able to do more things. Whereas that's not everybody's expressed goal. And so I just I there's something to be said for like, he's making a point. This Da’Vinchi guy's making a point. He's trying to actively point out what virtue looks like and what excellence is. And he's saying, hey, some people around me don't have it. And they can and they could have it. If they just tried. If they just tried, they could have it. And a a lot of America doesn't support that whole excellence focus versus a comfort focus. And I'm like, All right, fair. He's making a point. And then the people who are responding, the lady's just like, hey, he is a this Da’Vinchi kiss guy is acting in roles that embodied some of the best virtue in in humanity played by black actors and embodied embodied by other real life black Americans. I'm like, Yes. Those things happened. See, you even he knows that this is not a black American issue. He is just trying to point out that there are helpful things that black Americans have done and unhelpful things that black people have done. And then when you're talking about the guy who responded, he has another point where he's just like, hey, you
Damien: Family.
Josh: know, we have to be united. Unity is important. And A large way that oppression happens is that people in power divide us over who can complain the loudest and who has it worse and blah blah blah blah. I'm like, yeah, yeah, division is real. There are ways to break people up. But bring it back home to the main point here. There's a real way to get things done. There's a real way to focus on virtue and excellence, and that could still be the way we get what we want. We can still get outcomes if we get agency.
Damien: But see, the thing I'ma focus on in his what he brought up is that He I don't want to use the word proper. He doesn't have a a rational standard for division. Because division in itself is, I want to say something that people is counterintuitive. Division in itself is not a bad thing. I definitely want to divide myself from bad, evil people. That is what I want to do. But I have a clear understanding of the standard of what I'm using to divide people. And people make it seem like this is some arbitrary thing when, and and sometimes it may be. Some people may be locked into a mentality. And I think what he's the position that a lot of higher learning intellectuals try to present is that, yeah, this is people have to create a mythology to justify their life in some way to make them better than another person. Some people can be. Morally better than other people. By their actions, their judgment in their actions, that
Josh: Yes. Right. There is a continuum and there are definitely people who are better at things than others.
Damien: Yeah, but if you pretend that no, we should never divide, and then you don't have any standard by which you divide, because you do divide, because you're already telling you already
Josh: Right. We are divided, period. Mm mm.
Damien: telling us that you're divided from this person's opinion. You're like, so we shouldn't we shouldn't divide, but we shouldn't be like this we should divide ourselves from this type of opinion, but we don't but then there's what's that standard? What's and that standard ultimately just becomes, to me, pandering and comfort at the end of the day, right?
Josh: comfort is the most popular standard, especially right now in the United States. That's got that is that is where we where we live and where our marketing goes. And I think there's something to be said for unity of purpose, unity of Unity of having a shared standard and especially a shared standard that is beneficial. I think having that clarity is key. Because you're right. Separation exists period. We're all human beings. We all are born with differences. And those differences exist whether we want to acknowledge them or not. We can there is no such thing as absolute unity and pretending that we're gonna go for unity for unity's sake is a i is a mistake. So I think there has to be some clarity on no, we w what we're saying is that we have a shared value system and that leads to a shared mission so that we can now have a shared purpose to do these things. And that should be the part that we unify around. We should supposed to be united around the virtue, united around this outcome that we want to all work towards. And that's that's where we need the unity. It's like, well, we don't we don't need division there. I'm like, no, that that part we need to keep division out of. We want to have real clarity on this is the good. We're all moving toward the good and we're gonna be separated from the bad. And the parts that S move us closer toward the goal, something anything moves away from it, we can be separated from
Damien: But you need a good conception of the good and that's the problem.
Josh: Yes, it's got to be real clear. That vision's gotta be in your face out there and actively modeled.
Damien: Yeah. An and that's the thing that's just like I said, for me is troubling because I see this a lot. And and it's and it's very much pitched by this this called higher learning. don't know Van Lathan’s background. I don't know no young ladies' background. I'm assuming that they went to school, have been tested as highly intelligent, maybe having a degree or two or something like that. That's just my assumption. If you're gonna have a channel called Higher Learning, right?
Josh: Right.
Damien: So, but this is similar to me, what I see come from other intellectuals. I said, what do I want to call liberals? Maybe. I don't I don't even know if I would say that this is liberal. I don't know that much about them. They could be radicals. I'm not sure. and when I say radical, I don't mean like in a demeaning way. But I just mean like further out to the fringes. and I just to me I I look at it as like, yeah, an educated, well-informed opinion is the only thing that can help support a movement toward what I would be called what what I would call the good, but it's really the educated people who almost do the most damage. Like they
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: They strip out because they strip, they try to do so much stripping of the core essence of a per essence of people in general. Like that whole individualistic standpoint. Cause they try I don't know if you remember when we went when I tried to go over the whole j Jung and his negative thinking piece, and he's just like, yo, they they start stripping life of its of its source. So it's like, I have an opinion about life outside of life. And basically that's this you're creating a myth around your family and your integrity and and you and how much you work hard and to try to make yourself feel better or or whatever. It's and they always try to what did he call it? He says, he try to strip everything down to some banal banality. It's like, well, you just you're just saying that you're this because you want that. You're just saying that. you're a hard worker because you want the things that when people say those things get, and That can't work. Right. And so that that's not going that what do they say? That that dog is not going to hunt. And I don't care how many degrees or how many alphabets you put behind your name, that's not going to work. You're still going to have to understand that you just look stupid trying to pretend like you're not a person with these robotic. understandings of the world. Yes, people have biases. They they have their values and that is a good thing. And you saying that, well no, they just want this thing because like it's it it really what it is is that malevolent view of s of life instead of the benevolent sense of life. That's what it is. It's a poor sense of life because you're you are projecting your bare dark what is the dude the Russian the writer the rush
Josh: Dostoevsky.
Damien: yeah that type of view into the world like everybody else just wants This lowly thing. And I'ma just I'ma work my way backwards. I'ma see what they do. And then cause I already know what they want, but I'm going to see what they do. And those are the the met the methods by which they get to the the d lowly, dirty little low s lower self thing that everybody wants. Cause we all just want the money. We all just want the sex. We all just want the girl. We all just want the fame. We all just want all these little things. And so They're just putting on a face to get to those those lower self pursuits. Right. And
Josh: Right. When you make everything like minds make meaning and when you make every single meaning that we have just a random justification for your pursuit of resources, then it skips over the idea of virtue or what values, it ignores the human being, it ignores the individual, it ignores the choices we make. And I'm like, but we're actively pursuing these things for reasons. We're trying to do the things that are important to us because we w number one, want to be a person that we live up to our our standards and ideals. want to live in integrity, but we also have real needs that we're trying to meet. And when you're like, hey, you're just trying to get these things because you just you think you're a good person and you just make up this whole idea in your head about who you are and you're just trying to live up to that. I'm like, yeah, we all are trying to live up to that. That's of course right. Well you you made up a story where you're better than me. I don't even know you. How would I possibly
Damien: Ha ha ha.
Josh: make up a story about you? But I hear you, you're afraid that my story puts you in a bad place. And some people's stories do. But that doesn't change what you need or change what I need. Those parts haven't changed, so we still have work to do to meet these needs. That part's not going away no matter how many stories we make up. So if you're concerned about the story, we can talk about that and compare that story with reality. And there are things we can do to come to come to an agreement, like how you may have thought I looked down on you 'cause why I was trying to compete. Or maybe I was just hungry. I just needed to eat today. maybe maybe there was another there was another intent there instead of some sort of negative thing towards you. Regardless, whether or my intent was positive or negative, my actions tell the real s real real story. You could you get to evaluate my character and see what I am doing. Am I living up to virtual standards? Am I seeking resources in a way that's legal, moral, and appropriate, you know, based off my own effort? Or am I trying to steal? And tear down and take your stuff. Then that's a whole separate conversation. Then it's no longer, well, you're making up these stories. Judge me on my actions. Are my actions in line with morality? Are they ethical? And are they actively moving toward excellence and getting better? Or are they tearing people down, tearing you down, making things worse?
Damien: I think you can make that I think they can make that case. They will still be able to make that case even if you don't think that they can. And I think that's what Joel was saying. you can interpret the constitution one way, you can interpret it another way. 'Cause essentially a that's what people say when they're like, capitalism always le equ always ends in violence and it's always the it's always the people the haves basically killing the have nots. That's that's pretty much what they're saying.
Josh: That's what they say.
Damien: know? And and so that's why we have to choose another system. But it's not really like because there's a evidence of another system working better, but So I don't know, we just throwing shit against the wall. That's that's
Josh: Well
Damien: kinda
Josh: Yeah, they're just they're overgeneralizing
Damien: But we already saw what it did when it hit the wall the first time.
Josh: and they see someone abuse power and they're like, We should get rid of these people in power. We should get rid of power altogether. We should get rid of all systems that pr that promote power. I'm like, that's not how this works. It's also never been demonstrated in hi in all of human history. But but most importantly, what like this is this is like where Ayn Rand and the whole until and the witch doctor come into play. I'm like, this this is exactly what they say. Like, immediately take power from you. Please don't say these things. Like, I'm I wanna pretend
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: that maybe you're not the evil person. Maybe you're just ignorant. You're just like, well, who could say? Well, I am saying they have they have done this before and they run this exact play all the time when they want to take power from you. They immediately go in, like, I The system's broken. It doesn't work. We should throw out the system and just give me all the power. And it'll be fine. It'll be fine. clearly it'll who knows what who knows what could happen? We haven't tried it yet. We just you've never done communism really right. Just give me all the power and I'll do it right for you. Okay, buddy. Okay.
Damien: That's just that's a low to me a Could be evil, but on the lighter side of that, it's just a low self-awareness, a low level of self-awareness. Because one comment that kind of reflects some reflects that somewhat is that power corrupts and ultimate power cor corrupts completely, whatever the saying is, right?
Josh: Right.
Damien: And because that's a w that's a self-awareness. That's a self-awareness about oneself. If I didn't have to do anything.
Josh: It's just it's just a lazy it's a lazy statement. it's a fun it's funny to say, but I wish people would use their critical thinking to say it differently. Like it's like hey, you when you have power, you could choose to use it well or use it poorly. And people who get a lot of power, a lot of them have used it really poorly. I'm like, yes, yes, but and so you and so the solution, right? Was to do what again? When you get too much, meaning when you have more resources than you can effectively use when you're when the money is greater than you are, what do you do? You get some boundaries, you get some wisdom, you find people who are better in the area of your weakness. You don't give all your money away, right?
Damien: No.
Josh: We don't stop having power because someone abused it one time. We put safeguards in place.
Damien: But that's not even like if we sp if we speak literally, it's totally ridiculous. So the whole ultim absolute power, that's a social thing. That's not because that would be like mis mysticism if we would talk. You know what I'm saying?
Josh: It is mysticism. Yes. There you there you go, right?
Damien: Cause yeah. But the whole concept, so I think if we were to be more clear when we speak, because I think what you're what you're saying, and then I think the clearest way is to say, You need power. Everyone, we all have to have power or else we're dead.
Josh: thank you. That's all I'm saying.
Damien: So it's how you're going to use the power. And basically politics is almost like how we balancing power between people in a sense, right? So and then there's na the natural capabilities that you just can't get away from. People have well There are natural capabilities, but then it comes down to well, how do you look at society? If if to what's the saying that you always d the Gault saying, to each according to their need or whatever, I can't remember.
Josh: Yeah, the communism communism part is from each according to his ability to each according to his need.
Damien: Okay. So yeah, if you view society like that, so it really it really doesn't matter how what someone's personal capabilities are, you you're basically like, okay, yeah, we'll take that as a society and we'll ration it out. But at the same time, when you do that, you diminish a person's ambition to even exercise the power to bring up others. It's like, hey, why the hell am I doing this?
Josh: Right. And you actively violate their individual rights. Take away their property. How can you have life liberty property if you take it every every time they amass it, you take it away. I'm like, now they can't plan, now they can't do stuff. The property is their life. It is the thing that allows them to live till tomorrow.
Damien: True, but if you lack a wisdom, you you you are open-minded to a system that does not safeguard individual rights or individual property. And you and the worst part, the part that I hate about it, and they call that moral. And and well, they
Josh: Right.
Damien: don't call it moral, they call it good, which is have to assume that they think it's moral. And it's absolutely ridiculous. And if we go
Josh: It is.
Damien: back to where we started, this is why This is why I don't have an issue with 'cause If there's a bad culture out there and people have immoral an immoral culture, I don't have a problem with violent people defending themselves against that. Like with military and stuff like that. Like so with g government and a legalized force. Because That's ultimately gonna end in a bad way, that that that view of life. 'cause people don't have any free they don't have any individual rights. And basically you're like,
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: hey, we're gonna come in and impose individual rights and we're gonna have to kill off the bad people so we can do that. So that that's that violence that that we were kinda talking about in the beginning.
Josh: Right.
Damien: But there's one one part that I definitely wanted to t touch on quick today, is that It's the concept of respect. Right. 'cause to me it's not really related to that. But and and the and I want to s talk about respect in a certain context. Because we talk about adult development a lot here, right? And then we and I've seen multiple models. Like you got Kegan’s model, I don't know about what's the other guy, I forgot his name, Holmath. He does like a nonstep thing, and then you got Ken Wilber.
Josh: Rover, yeah.
Damien: He does a different thing. And the constant that to me that you find in in these development models. And even if you subscribe to an idea that, there's everybody has equal intrinsic moral moral worth. But th there's a con there's a thing that it's like when you get to a certain level, you think well, unless you have some sort of I don't know if I would call it humility. Say, hey, there there could be something else. And so I may be I'm I may be. Humble enough to follow someone that may have a higher conception of life or society or whatever. But what happens a lot of times is people max out and they're just like, nothing exists beyond me. I I have it all, we've got it. This is all we need to know. What are these guys talking about at all? What are what are those other people talking about? Because
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: we've got it all solved right here. And The reason why I start thinking about this is just that because I don't know, you you might be similar to me. I'm assuming that you are that to think that, yeah, I'm good with all of the moral, everybody having equal moral worth things, but there are some people who have expanded this thing further. thinkers, great thinkers, great producers, great minds. They've done a a lot more to expand this thing than most others. Right.
Josh: Right. Yeah, performance isn't the same. While we're all on the same level human dignity wise, we're not the same in performance. There are a lot of people who are better at things than others. anyway, strengths exist, weaknesses exist, and when we ignore those, we all suffer.
Damien: Right. And in some of those lanes, it's like int intellect, right.
Josh: Right.
Damien: And and some of people have developed ideas that have kind of changed the world. And when we get to this place where, and I don't know if social media has has done it, it's like it put everything, it compressed everything to this thin layer where You've got credentials. Like you can't tell the difference between an intellectual and an academic and a random smarter guy and an average person. I don't know if I can say I couldn't tell. I'm just saying that it's not present it's not respected in that way almost,
Josh: No, no, in the past, the more credentials, the more research, the more weight you ha had was was given people who had more evidence were given more weight and were making made more and their ideas were made more popular and that popularity was used as a substitute for well, we can listen to this person because they're an expert in this area and they're popular now. So there must be something behind what they said. But with now social media and internet and everything else kinda flattened the whole world and now everybody's on the same level. And the person who actually has evidence and knows what they're talking about is now put on the same level with the with the newbie who just bought a computer, has has a cell phone, and now it's equally accessible. And I'm happy for the access. But that's that does not allow for the criteria of popularity to be used the same way anymore. And so now you got to well, this person made this claim, but I don't know If I should trust anything this person ever said, I'd have to go research this person and that claim to figure out what it is. Because they're providing no evidence. They're not showing me any reason to trust them. And now I have no idea how to distinguish one from the other.
Damien: Right. But to me, the greater part of it is, and I might have brought this up before, there's a certain level of respect when you submit yourself to the leadership of another person. and not to say that they're doing all of your thinking for you, but they're a helpful guide. They have wisdom. Right?
Josh: Right. 'Cause they have a proven track record. it's not just guessing anymore. We're not like who knows this person? I know this person. They're actively doing things. We can see them.
Damien: Yeah. So let me split that into two, right? Let me split that into a productive mindset and a and a more moral mindset. I don't like to use a more spot spiritual so much. It's the thing, the intangibles. You know what I'm saying? The moral intangible piece. Cause yeah, I can submit myself to the leadership of a Fortune five leader, and they've taken a country, I mean a company and made billions of dollars. So That's evidence of capability. But then there's but that's not, that's just the material aspect
Josh: Yes.
Damien: of life. Right. And then I'm thinking about, well, submitting yourself to the leadership of someone who's and that's the that's that difficult part to get somebody from the material to the I w I wanna say spiritual, but I don't wanna say spiritual in a
Josh: You can say character focused, because it's it's really it's it's it's that same approach. And I w you can point it out however you want to point it out, but people know good leadership when they see it, in the sense that leaders are here to actively take the brunt of the conflict for you. They're here to go first, they're here to actively model the stuff we want to see, and they're here to show us how to do things correctly with the evidence of doing things correctly. And I think that is There's something to be said when we say we give this person this position, we're gonna hold them at a higher standard because they have higher they have more to offer in that sense of like they're actively going to do the things that we want to be, that we require, and that require that and then then that they're gonna do the things that that position requires in order to keep the people who are following, all of us below, on track. And I think there is something to be said for that level of character.
Damien: So yes, but I I guess I'll sense it in what's the evidence though?
Josh: Right. So hope the evidence should be their character, should be their actions. Meaning when they're working
Damien: Martily.
Josh: at your level, they can demonstrate knowledge and demonstrate proficients by actively doing the work. And then when it comes to the leadership portion, like actually when they get the promotion, they actively talk to the peop you and the rest of the team to say like who are these people? What are their strengths and weaknesses? Let's actively work together to put them, let's use their strengths to actively make sure the team's performance actually achieves a team goal. Like because a real leader should have a vision, should have a clear goal, should have a clear outcome we're trying to reach, should actually get buy-in from the team, and then should actually be able to put people in their level area of strength and give them clear expectations of saying, I need this, so this fits into the part of what we're doing to move toward this goal. And if you have that clarity, you see that stuff happen, you're like, well that is what we need. We needed someone to coordinate that. We needed someone to actually do that first. And then for the people who did not know even how to do it, we needed someone to show them, or at least get them in touch with someone who could show them. And so there are there are actions the leader takes to make sure that the outcome or the performance of the team stays consistent and gets there.
Damien: So I asked the question for a reason because I don't What is the evidence for individualism as a as a stated pursuit? What is and I and I don't, cause if you s cause I don't, I would not accept that, hey, societies work better when we pre when we move from an individualistic standpoint because that's a byproduct, right?
Josh: Right, right. That's yeah, because that's a bipodec or derivative, we have to go back to the original part. It's like, why would you want individualism? What is the virtue there? It's like, start with you. I mean, I can start with me. I have to eat today. It is important that I figure out how to get resources and then like prepare that food enough for me to be able to actively swallow food so that I can have enough energy. To walk and then move and then accomplish new things and do those things. That's my responsibility because it's my need. And no one else can do that for me. No one else can do my thinking for me, and no one else can do my acting for me. That has to happen for me. And that's the basis because life is the standard. Because I my life has needs. Otherwise, you know, life is action. Like you have to actually go out and do these things. If I do if I fail to do these things. Then I n I I failed to be alive. I failed the standard. And so in that sense, it's like this is a individual responsibility 'cause this is my individual need. And therefore, that is my like to me that's where I have to start. we have to focus then on the nature of humanity. Human beings, human individuals have needs. And if life is the standard, then we have responsibility.
Damien: And a and I would agree with you, but I think that there could be a case to say, Well, yeah, we but we don't do anything by ourselves, right? That's
Josh: Yes.
Damien: the argument that's gonna come up, right. And
Josh: Right, and I think that's that's ign that's that's a overgeneralization that misses that misses the point. They're like people who say we don't do anything by ourselves are thinking in a longer time frame. you have parents, you have a society, you have a family, you've got a community. I'm like, Yeah, but they're not breathing for me. They're not
Damien: Mm-hmm.
Josh: waking me up and then thinking through who's gonna brush my teeth. They're not actively Doing my life. No, I hear you, they are a part of my life, and without them, I couldn't live. I don't want to pretend that I s came into existence all on my own by myself. I am not claiming that. All I am saying is that since I came into an existence, I have personal needs that require my personal action to keep my person alive. And that's appropriate because that's how people That is the nature of humanity. And so it's great that I can do so many good things that I will be able to finally collaborate and be interdependent with other people. But that does require me to develop enough skill to be able to be relied upon by other people. So I I if if you care about society, then you need each member of society to be able to contribute. And I get it, there are special cases. But for the majority of society, we're talking about the middle class and the such, it's like there are there need to be enough people who have the ability to found society and keep it going. It's it is important.
Damien: I and I I agree with you, right? But because but the at the end of the day, to me, this is a this is a mechan, this is a tactical yeah, the argument to me that you're making is a is to me a tactical argument. I understand
Josh: Yes.
Damien: why you're making that argument, but the the thing that I won don't want to get away from is and when I say evidence, what is the evidence? What is the evidence of? And essentially The questions that really that we're asking are they're social questions. They be they don't really they exist in the individual, but they don't morality is a social thing. It it's not to say that it Morality is born by people being around others. Because it's really all about what you're doing with in a world with others, and essentially. And it really all it gets down to is this like, what is right? And this is what we get and and that's why I'm asking about the question of evidence, because how do you prov and when I say about the person who's providing wisdom from on a for the higher self aspect of it, they're what they're providing to me from a moral standpoint is what is right and how and what evidence of right. I don't I don't think I don't know if I could say that there's a evidence so you would have to say here's what right is and here
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: and the evidence is how we're getting to that. Right? So Basically it's like he was right, you know, and so for me if I w I would take your argument, I would say, Yeah, I do need to I don't need to. Somebody could feed me. Somebody could actually feed me. They could try to they could put
Josh: Somebody could. But what would be required for that to happen? I that is the part that I'm like lots of possibilities in the world exist. But do they depend on slavery? Once we get to this point, then I'm like I don't think we've thought this through. And or you you may be proposing an immoral argument. You that may be your standard. I hear you. well, it's the obligation of people to take care of other people. that's not sustainable, but most importantly, immoral. Now we're talking in principles and we need to so I think that's when people ask for evidence, I think we could start with the top down, you know, larger strategic view and say like, we need to abstract things. The principle here is morality is based off of life. Life is the standard. And that anything that promotes this life then sense of a long term benefit is something that we're is something that I'm claiming as the principle that I'm working for that is the good thing, that is any action that leads toward that is virtue. And since that's the outcome we're looking for, and like, why would we do this? Life. Life is why we do this. Well, I don't agree. You don't have to, but this is my life. And so I'm I'm letting you know that this is my my my perspective, my values, my choices.
Damien: I think you have to put individual life on that. Because I do think that some people think there's I don't think that collectivists aren't necessarily using life as the standard. They're thinking about collective life as the standard in a lot of cases.
Josh: Gotta be specific. That's fair.
Damien: An individual life is a totally different thing. It's like a species, I guess you could say it. That's what I heard. But I get all the I I I started to kind of go down a rabbit hole. But I getting back to the point of just respect, because we started talking about having a a respect for someone who has a wisdom that kind of is presenting a message or that wisdom that can take you to a higher self. And you can reject the message of a higher self. I don't think that that's collectively. I don't think that you could agree on that because even when people are trying to shout you down, they're trying to tell you why you're wrong, why what you're doing is wrong,
Josh: Yeah it's
Damien: even though they're presenting something. I'm like, hey, what you're doing is wrong by this standard. They're just like, well, what you're doing is wrong, and I don't need a standard.
Josh: Sorry.
Damien: So But but that that to me is the trouble part is just that without res without that respect and being willing to submit yourself to the leadership of someone who has more wisdom than you or is more developed in you in a certain area That's a pr th that's a big problem. Because How do you, how does this how babies are being born every day. They need parents.
Josh: Every day.
Damien: They they need someone with guidance to tell them. They can't figure it all out by themselves. So they're they by nature have to submit themselves to the leadership of someone who's stronger. until they get stronger, then they can do things by themselves. But Just being strong in society doesn't work out just because you have physical strength. It there's other things happening here.
Josh: Right. Yes. Physical strength is not all that is required to build actual moral character.
Damien: Right. And and not even just moral character. physical strength is not it's just not gonna carry you anyway. It's even the evil people, even the smallest evil person can get rid of you because they know how to
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: play bigger, better games than you than you know how play. So I mean if I think about people like boxing promoters or fight promoters a lot of times, it's like yeah, they they can play a better game than you. If we if we're playing a power game, they can play power better than you. So
Josh: Right. There are people who are more skilled in than most new people on in this area. It's like, I trained all this time. Did you train in this area? 'Cause this is their area of exp expert expertise. They are gonna out compete you here. They have they
Damien: Exactly. Yes. Yeah.
Josh: have already out competed everybody else. I don't know why
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: you think today is going to be your day.
Damien: Right. It's like yeah. But you may be six six and two fifty, but they're just gonna shoot you. But it's not even it's not
Josh: Right. Or they have the power of the collective behind them, or they have all the connections or they know somebody who's six, seven and three hundred. I don't know, man. It there are other people in this world. You
Damien: Great.
Josh: just getting stronger is a great thing for you to say, I'm better than I used to be. I'm like, great, you've out competed yourself. You you win that turn that prize. But you didn't outcompete the whole world. That that prize
Damien: Yeah. Good.
Josh: is doesn't doesn't exist.
Damien: Yeah, man. I c I guess man, I'm just I g I'll get I'm saying all of this to say there are a lot of people who shoe or poo poo other people's op opinions. Or not even just opinion. It's like I don't know. like y if you're trying to present an idea, like all right, I'll you know I put philosophy and religion to me, similar things. Just trying to get to the higher self, right?
Josh: trying to make meaning of the world. We're trying to give a worldview that makes sense. And so both of those are the ways we can put things together, our little mental models.
Damien: Well, yeah, but it kinda goes the it goes along with the higher self because it's a it's a abstract thing.
Josh: Is abstract, yes.
Damien: It's not a one plus one equal apple and apple or you know, just physical everything material type of view. You have to get to the abstract. And and I'm just thinking like, well where does that come from? 'Cause people I've I've met people who are like, man, You're saying all of this stuff and you saying this and you saying that. why are you saying all of this stuff?
Josh: Yes.
Damien: And and these might be people who I know that went to church, right? And and followed behind spiritual wisdom or Christian wisdom, whatever, and and would otherwise have some rational understanding of the world, but they don't put the whole thing together. It's like okay, when the twenty twenty stuff was happening and when people started being like, Well, yeah, maybe they could, decrease the police and and and not have not de they could defund the police because police do X, Y, and Z and it's like I just can't under like you're not putting enough things together for me. You're not seeing the face.
Josh: No. But that's also how they announce themselves. that's that to me was a clear view of not everybody thinks about thinking. Not everybody spends
Damien: no.
Josh: a lot of time actively thinking through every issue from start to finish. And so when they're like, we we should defund the police, I'm like, I hear what you're saying and what you mean is that abuse of power has happened and you want to make sure this abuse doesn't happen again. So you want to make sure you take away the resources from the abusers. And that's one way to get at justice. But I think your particular method is wrong and is not going to actively get at justice. I don't even think you've thought this through about how that would work and if it would work. Okay, you are letting me know that this is not a d this is not a real conversation about methods or tactics that that that are evidence based. You are telling me a feeling. all right. That's different. I'm gonna stop treating you as if we are on the same think tank brainstorming team breaking this down. We're not breaking this down. You don't like bad things. Because like bad things happen sometimes. Like they did. And that policeman did a bad thing one time. Okay, sure. So we should take everybody's money away. I'm like you know what? We're not gonna let you solve this problem. But I hear you. There is a problem. And I'll take that. I'll I will go and take it from
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: here and let me talk to someone else who wants to describe this problem. Cause you're not the I am not talking to a researcher now. I I am I I am I hear you. You don't have evidence, you don't have criteria, you're not analyzing this. You don't wanna. And you don't have to. It's not your job.
Damien: True, man. But this brings me to the place where So you say that you say that that everybody's not thinking about things deeply. But they don't have the hum I don't know if the word I'm s trying to say is humility. Like they really think highly of their opinion, still. Right.
Josh: Yes, yes. But it to think that highly of their opinion means that they do not have awareness that other opinions are higher than theirs. I'm like, well that's very limited. You don't know that other opinions other helpful opinions exist. You don't know about experts, you don't have the awareness to put your opinion in the right space in the continuum. You're like, I have an opinion and there I have opinion and I like my opinion and therefore no one else in the whole world has ever thought this through or ta had a better idea than this idea. I'm like, you don't even know other ideas exist. You don't know anything. Alright. I'm I'm going to stop treating your Your words and your opinions as if they are the end all be all. You have stopped there, but I don't have to stop there. Okay.
Damien: Yes. But to me, this is like this is one of those things that a lot of times when you see it, it's a ref a reflex. Reflex. You know how like sometimes people say weird stuff when they're embarrassed or like smile when something like an it's at an awkward time that makes you think like, but it's just a reflex for them. Or like say a a some some nasty thing. Just to protect them themselves from being hurt or something, to pretend like. So sometimes for me that's like a reflex. But when I'm thinking about the specific people I'm thinking about, and I'm like, yo, you used to follow leadership. You would just follow it. But now you have these random opinions. There's no order to them at all. And you just basically you're just dead set on whatever, whatever thing that pops to the top of your mind, you just kind of roll with that. And I'm and I'm thinking like maybe it's got and I I know I'm just thinking like trying to make it go down one path. I'm I'm thinking, well, maybe this has something to do with social media. But it's just that people are okay with just saying. That thing. That's that smart remark or that quick answer that they wouldn't even try to use to fix anything themselves. Like they know that it
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: doesn't work, but they just gotta say it. Like, man, this is this is crazy. Like, yeah, black kids are being killed everywhere by, you know, police violence. And like just having like these I don't know. Not really let me try to clean it up a little bit because my thing is that like people will have these convictions and p opinions that's like spiritual or whatever. And they would kind of reject sometimes science. You know, like it
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: it just not even I'm just pray it. You know what like but they said that the he these levels are to a level that we're not gonna be able to live. I don't know, I'm just pray it, you know what I'm saying? But
Josh: Right.
Damien: In that I'm trying to show that somebody that there's a To me, that's a submission to some kind of a leadership in a way, even if it's not, maybe it's not a person, maybe it's an idea, maybe it's not, but and then in academia, there may be this submission to the anointed, the the person with the most alphabets behind their name. But it's almost like this big jumble of We don't even need an I guess this is what I'm all getting to. We don't need answers. We don't have to respect anybody. All opinion is just as equal as any opinion and We don't need to make sense of any of them.
Josh: Right? and before, meaning in the past, there wasn't a whole lot of different voices, influences that we had to lean on. You only had your grandparents or the traditions of a couple elders or a lot of the consensus of the group where you had one textbook or you had a a couple of references to lean on. And therefore you didn't have a whole lot of different influences. So you you're like, This is the ex I don't know anything about this. This person or this book taught me everything I know about it. I just follow that. But now in the age of internet and social media, we have a million different voices all coming in, and people have lost the dis the ability to discriminate. And so instead of discriminating, they just go with whatever's popular or whatever they hear in their echo chamber, and they're like, all the voices I heard today said this thing. It must be right. I'm following it, and I'm going to do this now. And if anyone tells me something differently. I don't have a way to discriminate. So I'm just gonna reject it. I'm gonna reject anything else that's not in my echo chamber because I don't have the time to re redo all this work we just laid with all these random voices I just heard. And these voices are now my voices, and now these voices are my identity, and I r anyone who says anything differently than them is trying to attack me, trying to attack us, trying to attack my people. How dare they? They're wrong. It's like, but you don't know what's right. or wrong 'cause you didn't take any time to discriminate. It's like I don't have time for all that. Okay. Well then this is not a conversation then. You're just letting me know where you stand or where other people stood and now that you're s you were now joining.
Damien: Yeah man, I guess two things. I don't know what to do about that, man. That's the first thing. Like this is a this is a new problem in the history of the world. To to have the collective conscious like move so fast, right? And to feel like everybody is on under a microscope, you know what I mean? In the sense that you could just turn on your computer and turn on your phone and your life is on display or something
Josh: It is.
Damien: about you was just on display. And that's just not that's not the history of the world. Like, so many things have happened in the dark
Josh: No. No we have much more access than we've ever had.
Damien: that never came to light that if we would have found that out, we would be like, Whoa, we didn't we didn't know that about that person.
Josh: Right. And that changes how I think about them. I'm like, yes, but it doesn't change what they did. Their character
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: is still the same it's like, Well, they did a bad thing one time. Yes, and then they learned from that and never did it again. And that's how they got to be the person who got to be the popular person that we could follow. That was the whole development process. Well, I don't like that. now we're talking about something else.
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: This has nothing to do about who this person is or what actually happened. You you you don't like how this makes you feel. Mm-hmm. Okay.
Damien: Yeah. Yeah, man, that that's a that's a legitimate question. That's something that I gotta think about. Because you know me, I like I wanna solve problems. I'm not in this thing of always
Josh: Yeah. But
Damien: consistently analyzing. I like to try to solve.
Josh: Right, exactly. You actually want to get to the action piece and that's huge. Other people don't have those same priorities, don't have those same obstacles to overcome. And so it's anyway, you have to find people who actually care about that and work on that. That's that to for me, that's that's the doing piece. Like there are people who refuse to think about things and think deeply and you know, it is not my job. To run a marketing campaign or a branding campaign or a whole re-education campaign for people who refuse to learn or listen. That's not what I'm here for. There are specific things I'm trying to do with my life. I have legitimate obstacles and problems I want to solve. Some people share those problems and they also want to solve them. So for the problem solvers, I'm like, hey, I would like to talk to you, but I would like you and I to work together to solve this problem. And if you're like, I don't believe that stuff, I'm like, well, let's look into that. information. Let's find actual data ourselves. We don't have to have all information. Let's just find the data on the next step. Has anyone ever done this well? Is there a next step we can follow? What is the model? How do we know it works? How can we try it? What's our next baby step that we can just validate and prove this concept at all? Are any if we can prove anything, let's use that as the as the shared you know data, we can take the next step from that. I think that's helpful for problem solvers. But not everybody's a problem solver. Some people like to complain and some people like to just blame. And I'm like, well y'all y'all should go over there and I'm gonna keep I'm
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: gonna keep moving over here because I I need this to be done soon.
Damien: I ag I'm with that. I think I had a c saw a comment recently, somebody was saying that Being critical of somebody who's analyzing is anti intellectual.
Josh: Yes.
Damien: Be because but see, I guess for me, like I'm just like I don't Philosophers have been around them. Highly educated people have been around them. I'm not interested in the people who don't turn toward the solution. You don't have to solve the problem, but you just can't tell me about all the things that exist. I I've heard that story enough. I don't need to hear, and you could even bring some, it may even be. clarifying, but people don't understand, like to me, as an INTP, I can keep going over the same thing and glean something from it. At some point in time, it becomes diminishing returns. You know, it's like
Josh: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Damien: I you've seen this thing again. We he saw this thing. She saw this thing, they said the same, something similar, you said something similar. But you have to point, you have to be oriented toward the solution for me. Because otherwise, we get to this point where I'm like, I don't even know what we're talking about anymore because
Josh: Right.
Damien: we're just talking about aspects of life and answering questions in the Petri dish. When does the Petri dish turn into reality?
Josh: Right? What's the minimum amount of we information that we need to take the next step? What's our
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: what's our criteria here? Because we've just said things that exist, which is true, but they may not be helpful anymore. It's like the what what was the one thing what are the pitfalls that didn't work last time? Tell me that thing. And then we can be like, yeah, this was really important to know that there's a ditch over here. I'm like, Okay, that's a description I can work with. Don't go into that ditch. What is this thing that we're trying to do over here? the next
Damien: Right.
Josh: road the next direction on this road is this direction. I'm like, okay, cool. Are there other things in that direction that we need to know about to get us over there? How can we get over there? That's a whole different thing. Instead of saying there are a lot of trees over here, there's 10,000 blades of grass in this one patch of area, and there was a pothole on this part. And I saw a caterpillar one time. I'm like, hey, hey, we are now just saying things. And I'm not saying everybody's voice is not valid, meeting like I'm not saying you're wrong. I am saying it's not It's not it's not helpful. What is the direction we're going? How can we get there? Please and thank you.
Damien: Yes. The because people they they make a living off of yo, I'm just telling you all the aspects of it.
Josh: And this is how it made me feel. I had a thought one time, hey, where are we going? How can we get there? The end.
Damien: No. No. People get real mad at me. I think you probably got more patience because I'm like, I'm not going down that road, yo. I'm not, I'm not talking to you anymore. You know, it's just
Josh: Right.
Damien: like, yo, you don't have the patience. Because you have to demonstrate that we're doing something real. That's all. Just demon. You don't even have to consistently do it. But it's not, but don't give me guessing check. Give me thinking check. Think, check. Think, check.
Josh: Yes.
Damien: Think, do. Then then we're then we're doing something. And then we're on the way to, we're on the way to doing something. Not on to on the way to answering another question that answers another question that never actually meets reality. So I'm not interested in that part. So only got I got two quick things in the just so one more thing. I got a friend, right? So more or less getting to the point we were saying is that he he can spit out all of these different check this out, check this out, check that out, and and and sh and throw this up and throw this in. And I'm like, what am I supposed to get out of that? And it's not really it's like all of these half-chewed pieces of bubblegum that I don't really I can't really grasp it. You know what I'm saying? And that's what I mean
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: is like it's almost that Check this experience. Look at this. It's not making any whole stories of anything. And I don't
Josh: No. It It'd be interesting
Damien: Coi.
Josh: if you could collect so many pieces of data over the course of a day or two or a week or something and then just don't respond to anything and then after like a week send it back, that was really cool. What did you get out of that? And
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: how do you want to use that next?
Damien: I could ask like I've asked in the past, because for me, reflection, right? If
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: you don't reflect, then you don't make make any connection to the thing in yourself. I think that's how Jung explains this in a sense. You can just go through all of these. Ha ha ha, look at this. It was green. That was red. This was that. Blah, blah, blah. Is there any whole story happening here? No. There's no real whole story happening here. And as I get older and older, it's just gonna be less of I'm gonna have I'm gonna have a l less of a tolerance for it.
Josh: Exactly. It's like I need you to make meaning out of this. The whole unexamined
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: life point. I don't I fine that you notice these things in life. Examine it, put it together, make a story, make some meaning out of this. Let me know why it's relevant. And then we can have a discussion about the relevance. Let's apply it to something. But just saying, I notice this is not worth the majority of my life. I don't have time to hear you talk about your journey. I know you had a good journey. I'm rapping one too. Now let's find a way that we can have a shared part where how did this thing you did or experience help you? How could it help me? That'd be cool. I would love to hear about.
Damien: Yeah, but that goes back to that part where people aren't putting the whole story together. And that's when you need some kind of respect for wisdom. It
Josh: Yes.
Damien: because people help you. And I've had people come to me before and be like, yo, you know, I'm kinda like saying a lot of things, and I like to come to you because you kinda helped me make sense of it.
Josh: Thanks.
Damien: I didn't mean to do that. It's just that I
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: can't. I can't look at all of these parts and just be throwing them out and hey, this is the thing, that's the thing, this is thing that wait
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: a minute. What are we doing here? What what are we doing here? you know what I'm saying? I can't.
Josh: Yeah it's
Damien: And so I I can sit there and I can say, I'll let the people get their stuff out because look, I get it. I mean, it's just like me talking right now. Get your stuff out. You know, get your
Josh: Yeah. Looks good.
Damien: stuff out. Now. S sweep it up, s get a little pile and then okay.
Josh: That's here we go.
Damien: Here's some you some sort of unified stuff.
Josh: Yes, let's make some abstractions. Let's pull them out. All right, they have this in common. This is the concept we're working with. These concepts have this in common. This is the principle we're working with. Now let's apply it to something. Let's apply it to our next steps. Life. Our past. Something.
Damien: Something some something with some meaning, something with some connectivity, some
Josh: Right.
Damien: unified something. So yeah. Because that's
Josh: Yes. But there are external plot processors out there, which is interesting. So it's cool that you met someone out there who can just say things and just let you kinda filter through it so they can start processing it more effectively. It's like, All right, I got this off my mind, I'm no longer overwhelmed. What do you make of that? now I see some of that. okay. Now I'm starting to put pieces together. I'm like, All right, that's a step. This was interesting. And this was e an exercise and, you know, us pulling this together. How can we make this relevant to both of us? There's a way to make this purposeful. Let's do that.
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: 'Cause those people are tend to be pretty action oriented. If you can do once you get them going in a direction, it tends to keep going. Which is super helpful for me to be like, all right, I was gonna think about this some more and like break this down and learn more about it. I can do that later. We can actually get this done right now. Let's just get this done right now.
Damien: Yeah. But but other than they have to have action because
Josh: Yes.
Damien: what else w yeah. They gotta do yeah, they gotta get to the thing. And at the end of the day, they may even get something intelligible going, but it's inefficient. Right. Highly inefficient. Yeah.
Josh: Yes. Yeah, that's yes. Hi. Like you could have done all this differently. But okay. I'm happy you did something. But you know, maybe
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: tomorrow we don't do it this poorly. Maybe we just try to like s stop getting in every let's stop getting in our own way. Let's let's let's find a way to move this A to B to C instead of going through the whole alphabet. Let's just let's just go from one thing to another, sequentially, is possible.
Damien: Yeah, get some efficiency. Be economic with this thing.
Josh: Yes. Yes.
Damien: and the last thing, man, I wanna just say, have you ever seen this thing, Sense of Life? This movie Sense of Life, Ayn Rand documentary.
Josh: No, that's awesome.
Damien: This thing is on to be right now. Yeah.
Josh: All right.
Damien: It's it's cool, you know, it's it's you know, I'm a IRA fan, so
Josh: Yeah. Of documentary. I like that.
Damien: Yeah, I think somebody named Bill Paxton made it. Iran's sense of life.
Josh: 1997. Great. What was I doing this past?
Damien: Yeah. Thirty years ago.
Josh: Mm-hmm.
Damien: Yeah. But no, it was cool, man. It's just it's her and her
Josh: Bill Paxton.
Damien: You said what?
Josh: Michael Paxton, but yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like Bill
Damien: Michael Paxton.
Josh: Paxton was in that one movie. I'm like, I don't think that anyway, Michael Paxton, yes.
Damien: Yeah. Yeah, but she it's about her life, her growing up and all of that stuff. And it's it's a long pathway. I think definitely made by people who who l like her or love her or whatever. but she just did a lot of amazing things and I think it's just a good a good watch. I d I think it came down to one piece for me, and when she starts explaining how her mind works, and she was like Yeah, I'm really passionate about these ideas because this is how I do things. these ideas are serious to me because this is how I actually do the thing. See, you all think
Josh: Okay.
Damien: that these ideas are just there. No, I actually take the idea and do the life thing with it. And so that was I mean, she didn't say it in those words, but pretty much that's
Josh: I love that. Yes.
Damien: what she's saying. And Cause I think Harry Benzwang was on there and the way she thinks, she has an emotional response to ideas because the ideas actually relate to reality for her. They're not just
Josh: Yes.
Damien: floating abstractions where
Josh: Okay.
Damien: b where though people can hear. Like that's how but that's the weird thing because that's how I am. Be when I hear, when people just throw ideas out there and I'm like, That's gonna lead to to bad things. I have a bad reaction to the thing you just said because that's gonna lead to to not good things. Well, you know, we just throw in ideas. No, no, no, no, no. See, that's it. But that's I can't I can't not see or think of the thing, the the the the logical ending when people say that.
Josh: Right. This is the logical conclusion to the application of this idea. It's like I would
Damien: Yeah.
Josh: never apply this idea. then this was an internal thought. Like you should have kept it there. You should say the things out loud that you want to apply. Application is the goal.
Damien: But see they don't it's not sometimes it's not even they would apply it to one thing. They would've they would apply to one thing not paying attention that something across the room broke. Like it went this way and they fixed this thing and then that thing broke that thing. And then they turned around and then they hit that button, but they didn't know these buttons were connected. And so they just keep going back and forth and hitting these different buttons. And they never put certain things together and I don't understand that because my mind just does that. Not to say that it does it when I want it to all the time, but I have to If I see patterns, if I hear things, I'm I've gotta be like, Whoa, what is what's going on here? What is this thing why when I hit this, that does that? I gotta figure that out. It just won't
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: my brain won't let me do it. So, ignore it. Yeah. Yeah, man, this this those are all the things I had pretty much.
Josh: Nice. Nice. I'll have to check out the Scent of Life documentary. Seems like it'd be pretty cool.
Damien: Yeah, man. It's I think it's a little it's more around her entertainment career, I guess you call it it. 'Cause she was in entertainment.
Josh: Right.
Damien: which is interesting. novelist, she was a writer, she was an actress, she was a philosopher. Some people don't like to give her the philosopher title. She went to school for philosophy and and histori well, history. I think she went to school for physics too, if I'm not mistaken. but yeah. But she s she she devised her own philosophy. And put it in a movie.
Josh: See which
Damien: Yeah. Yeah. So
Josh: Yeah. Who else has done that? That's not Now come.
Damien: Yeah. I mean a bo well You could you say the Bible? You know what I'm saying? It's like 'cause to me, Atlas is almost patterned after the Bible in a sense, right? In the sense that it's trying to tell a A story of morality through characters.
Josh: Yes, that's where sure.
Damien: and you need the characters. The characters do something that abstract thought in and of by itself cannot do. It it's
Josh: Right. Yeah. They make it real, they model the behavior, they model the application of these ideas.
Damien: Yeah. So just be like John Gold. Raniscope or whatever the hell his name is, Dagn
Josh: Yeah.
Damien: k or whatever all these
Josh: Weird.
Damien: people are, Rearden, yeah, or Howard Roark, stuff like that and all of those things that that whole the whole idea of that just becomes concrete.
Josh: Buttons. That's great. Like it.
Damien: Yeah, man. But I don't know, man, unless you got anything else.
Josh: Think that's good for now.
Damien: Cool.