TRANSCRIPT: IW 08: Interview with Sharon Neumann Solow-Part 1: It's a Complicated World
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00:00:02 Tim Curry [INTRO MUSIC STARTS]
Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter’s Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything, sign language interpreting, the ends, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know, more go to interpretersworkshop.com. Let's start talking... interpreting. [INTRO MUSIC ENDS]
00:00:35 Tim Curry
And now the quote of the day by German writer Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, “Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Wishing is not enough, we must do.” Today starts the interview with a wonderful interpreter who has applied much of her knowledge to our profession. And I think we can only wish that we can do as much as she is done.
00:01:05 Tim Curry
Now let's start talking...with Sharon Neumann Solow.
[SHORT MUSICAL TRANSITION]
00:01:14 Tim Curry
Thinking about how to introduce you to this wide audience, which is multicultural, multilingual... I know you have traveled many places but let me try to summarize ...your life.
00:01:28 Tim Curry
Sharon Neumann Solow is an American interpreter. She began interpreting about the same time as the profession started developing in the US. Her experiences are vast and that is why I'm interviewing her today.
00:01:48 Tim Curry
She is an educator, a consultant an author, a performer, a television star, an inspiring presenter, a mentor and an inspiration for many interpreters in the US and abroad. And I hope to give you some of that insight from her today in this very brief session with her.
00:02:20 Tim Curry
So, Sharon, welcome. We're very happy to have you.
00:02:22 Sharon Neumann Solow
Thank you, that is a very kind introduction. Thank you.
00:02:27 Sharon Neumann Solow
I'm happy to be here and I'm very impressed that you have this podcast. What a gift to the community ...of interpreters I mean.
00:02:35 Tim Curry
Well, thank you. It is hopefully a place that they can learn from you, and from all of us every week. That’s the goal.
00:02:41 Tim Curry
We've talked many times, but I think there's something that you could share with us, your overall philosophy or your overall perspective of the field of interpreting.
00:02:54 Sharon Neumann Solow
The work of interpreting, in my view, is soooo different than so many other kinds of work. And what it is, is trying to create a world in which people who don't use the same language, feel as though they're talking directly to one another.
00:03:14 Sharon Neumann Solow
Feel as though they're hearing directly from someone the information that person is giving.
00:03:20 Sharon Neumann Solow
That's sort of the broad thing.
00:03:22 Tim Curry
That's very good. That touches my experience... yeah.
00:03:26 Sharon Neumann Solow
I think the critical feature that creates that is... is a sort of a contradiction of terms. It is...I have to be totally present. As an interpreter, I must be totally there. Uhm, I have to be focused. I have to be involved in everything that's going on and really doing my work and at the same time I have to let my ego, my pride, my sense of “myself as important,” GO. I need to be a channel. I need to be a way that people can talk to each other. And to do MY best. So that's my ego, helping me be better. And then I have to throw my ego away. So that I don't care how other people look at me or think of me. And I don't want the attention. I want them to look at each other.
00:04:28 Sharon Neumann Solow
So, it's a... It's a challenge, but I think beautiful challenge. As I watch interpreters. This is a challenge because sometimes interpreters like for other people to pay attention to them, they like to be important. They like to be the center of attention, and this is a contradiction, 'cause you are the center of intention, attention and you shouldn't try to be. [laughing]
00:04:58 Tim Curry
I like the phrase “center of intention”.
00:05:01 Sharon Neumann Solow
[Bursts into laughter] Yeah, I know... That was a good slip, good error.
00:05:04 Tim Curry
For ...yeah, it's perfect. [chuckles]
00:05:08 Tim Curry
Those who prefer the center of attention, means they're the “center of intention”.
00:05:13 Sharon Neumann Solow
Yes! Yes! Exactly! [laughing]
00:05:13 Tim Curry
I love that. I love that term. [laughter in his voice]
00:05:18 Tim Curry
Well, where do you think that... your view comes from?
00:05:23 Sharon Neumann Solow
Ooooh! Good question, uhm. [pauses] Lots and lots of experience. [both laugh]
00:05:31 Sharon Neumann Solow
But also, from watching and learning from other interpreters... of all sorts, even interpreters who are far less experienced. But definitely from people that were much more experienced than me. I like to always credit one person who taught me so much (well there's a couple) but Lou Fant, who was a leader in the American interpreting community, an actor and a teacher and a mentor. And he was very confident and sure of himself in his work and in the world, but he was also very humble and very interested in other people and what was going on. And open, open, open to any learning.
00:06:28 Sharon Neumann Solow
I always say I want to grow up and be like that.
00:06:32 Sharon Neumann Solow
One of my first supervisors when I first started working was a woman named Virginia Hughes and she is a real, another real pioneer in the field of interpreting in the United States. And she, just like Lou, she was “what she talked.” She behaved as she believed. She never put herself first. She always put the communication first, the clients first.
00:07:01 Sharon Neumann Solow
And that was an early, early, early, part of my learning from both of them and other wonderful teachers as well. And every time I watch even today, as I watch other interpreters, when I work as a team with another interpreter, when that interpreter is genuinely focused on the work and not themselves. The work is usually sooo much better. And when the interpreter that I work with, unfortunately is focused on themselves, the work suffers.
00:07:38 Sharon Neumann Solow
But the daily “awareness,” Tim, you know [Tim: mmhmm] DAILY, as well as something I learned very young. Thank goodness! ...from these wonderful teachers.
00:07:46 Tim Curry
So, you learned from them, what was it like? What did it look like? Take us back to that time when you first started interpreting.
00:07:56 Tim Curry
Now I know personally that you are a CODA and so you probably have been technically interpreting your whole life. But what was the experience like when you first started interpreting and when you felt that moment: “This is my profession.”
00:08:15 Sharon Neumann Solow
[“mmm” - THINKING] Well, I, I did interpret all my life because of my Deaf parents and the Deaf community that I was very heavily involved with. Of course, [Tim: mhmm] 'cause that was their community, [Tim: Yes.] but the first time I ever interpreted professionally was a very odd circumstance.
00:08:34 Sharon Neumann Solow
It was in a doctoral program at a university, and I was 15 years old and...
00:08:41 Tim Curry
...You say fifteen “one...five”?
00:08:44 Sharon Neumann Solow
One, five...One, five. [Tim: OK] I was 15. I was in high school, [Tim chuckles softly] and I got... I worked first in the summer before the, the next year, but then during my school year, I had a special blue pass that allowed me to leave school at my fifth period so that I could go to the university and interpret the coursework.
00:09:10 Tim Curry
So, you left during the school day [Sharon: Yes] towards the end you were allowed to leave to go interpret at the university, huh, OK.
00:09:17 Sharon Neumann Solow
I left before the rest of the students left. [Tim laughing] It was a real, a really excellent, excellent benefit. [She says with humor. Tim laughing.]
00:09:28 Sharon Neumann Solow
But I would go over to the university and interpret, eh...ah...
00:09:32 Sharon Neumann Solow
…and in the summer, I interpreted, but I was interpreting for things way beyond my knowledge and my sophistication.
00:09:41 Sharon Neumann Solow
So that first transition into interpreting was very, very rocky. I didn't understand very much of what I was talking about, and I didn't have ANY experience in terms of watching other people interpret. There had never been anyone.
00:10:01 Sharon Neumann Solow
I had never seen anyone do this professionally, [Tim: Wow] just little smidgens here and there. [Tim: mmhmm] But... For example, we did not have an active Deaf community in terms of a religious place like a church or a temple. [Tim: mhmm] They didn't have an interpreter there that I was aware of. We just didn't have anybody who interpreted anything except we would go to the school for the deaf, the residential school for the deaf.
00:10:32 Sharon Neumann Solow
And maybe there would be a person, one of the staff members who would sign while somebody else was giving a spoken introduction because the parents couldn't all sign for example. So ...very rare [Tim: Wow, mhmm] that I saw anybody doing anything that I would call interpreting. But the gift of my life was that the students, the Deaf doctoral students that I interpreted for were incredible people.
00:11:02 Sharon Neumann Solow
And they taught me [slight pause for emphasis] personally by reacting to me. The whole time I would interpret they would NOOOOD, or they would nod negatively, or they would make a look of great perplexity on their face like, they'd be confused. [Tim: uh huh]
00:11:22 Sharon Neumann Solow
Or they would like...signing a little thing to correct me or they would, umm, just... They gave me a lot of cues, a lot of information in their body language and their gestures and their signing and, and their eyes and everything. I feel like they were directing my interpreting on a micro level like really closely, because I didn't know anything.
00:11:51 Sharon Neumann Solow
And so, they were like going, “Yeah, do that. Don't do that. Yeah, do that. Don't do that. Oooh, do more of that. Do MORE of that. Oooh more of that, oh, don't do that, EVER.” [Tim chuckling]
00:11:59 Sharon Neumann Solow
So, I was getting that message from the Deaf doctoral students who were... ‘MECH’ [sound means extremely more], a million times more prepared than I was [Tim chuckles] for this environment, and that molded me in a couple of really wonderful ways.
00:12:14 Sharon Neumann Solow
First, it helped me understand what we do as interpreters, [Tim: mhmm] because they knew what they wanted. Thank you, God! [Tim: Yes.] But secondly, it taught me that really important thing that I don't know that everybody understands, which is, the person who's the client... (You know, the deaf person or the hearing person, but in this case mostly for us deaf people.) [Tim: mhmm] That person knows better than I do what they need in many, many cases.
00:12:42 Tim Curry
Yes, yes.
00:12:44 Sharon Neumann Solow
There are times when that's not true, like with small children or certain things, [Tim: mhmm, sure] but they often know what they need and want. And if I pay attention, they don't always know how to tell me what they want. But if I pay attention, I see in their response what they want and need. And I can try or succeed [chuckles] in moving my interpretation toward what they prefer and need.
00:13:11 Sharon Neumann Solow
But I think that was ingrained in me very early, and it's been a very gi-... a very large gift in terms of helping me to be what I hope is the best I can be.
00:13:23 Sharon Neumann Solow
And how I knew that it was time that this would be my profession was, uhm, when how was it that I knew it would be my profession? I didn't... for a really long time. I sort of fell into it [Tim: mhmm] and one day.
00:13:42 Sharon Neumann Solow
And I don't know what day that was. But one day I realized that not only was this something I could do professionally, for REAL, like as a career. But also, that it was something that identified me. Like, THAT’S. WHO. I. AM. I'm an interpreter!
00:14:04 Sharon Neumann Solow
And I wanted desperately to be better at it. And I wanted to teach it, because I want-... and I didn't want to teach it 'cause I wanted-... [now with smile in her voice] to be honest, I didn't want to teach it so that other people would understand. I wanted to teach it because I wanted to understand.
00:14:26 Sharon Neumann Solow
And there weren't any teachers who taught interpreting. [Tim: mhmm] So, every time I would go to find something to learn something, it would turn around to me teaching it so that I could understand it better. [Tim: mhmm] And so I have always said, ‘I am so grateful because I pretended to teach, but what I was really doing was learning.
00:14:45 Tim Curry
Yeah, that's true.
[ROCK MUSIC TRANSITION STARTS]
00:14:49 Tim Curry
I hope you're enjoying this as much as I am. If you have any ideas for the podcast, contact me at interpretersworkshop.com. For now, let's go back.
[ROCK MUSIC TRANSITION ENDS]
00:15:03 Tim Curry
So, you say there were no teachers or no courses or no programs. When, if I may ask, [Sharon: Yeah] what time period are we talking about?
00:15:14 Sharon Neumann Solow
Oh, I started interpreting in 1965, so the National Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf (RID) was founded in 1964. I never met anyone who had any experience interpreting until 1968 ...maybe nine, 1968 or 9 when I worked... I left my home in Arizona and, which is in the southwest of the United States, and I went to the... close to the East Coast to Rochester, NY. [Tim: mhmm]
00:15:51 Sharon Neumann Solow
Where the National Technical Institute for the Deaf (NTID) was just starting, [Tim: mhmm, wow] just founded, and they'd not written interpreters into their grant. And so, they... one of those doctoral students that I had interpreted for asked me if I would come out, because they had no interpreters. [Tim: aaahh]
00:16:13 Sharon Neumann Solow
And so, I did.
00:16:15 Sharon Neumann Solow
What an adventure. [Tim chuckles] So I was 18 years old, [Tim: oooh] and I moved to Rochester. Aah, to interpret at NTID, The National Technical Institute for the Deaf, and at the National Technical Institute for the Deaf was the first time I ever met other people, they started hiring other interpreters, so we were all new. [Tim: mhmm]
00:16:39 Sharon Neumann Solow
We were all new to the “gig” of interpreting, [Tim: Yeah] but we started to at least have conversations.
00:16:45 Sharon Neumann Solow
The only other colleague I'd had before was my sister, who was a gift to me, [Tim: yeeah] but she was my sister.
00:16:52 Sharon Neumann Solow
And to be fair, the, the hearing student who went to school... who was in the doctoral program, Norm Tully. He went to the... he was going through that same program, and he mentored me.
00:17:04 Sharon Neumann Solow
Truly, he did help me a lot to help me know what to do. [hee-hee] He was the first person who ever said, “Well, you just listen to what they say and then you sign it.” [both burst out laughing]
00:17:16 Tim Curry
Well, that's true. That's the basic.
00:17:18 Sharon Neumann Solow
Very helpful. And, and much more, much more. He was very helpful, but at NTID and I was just fortunate because it was such a big program. It was a very important program.
00:17:30 Sharon Neumann Solow
Lou Fant was [Tim: mhmm] a part of the National Theatre of the Deaf at that time. And they came to NTID, and I met Lou there. And he, for some generous reason, reached out to me...you know, in a conversation and said, “I hope you continue doing this.” And he gave me a lot of encouragement because I didn't know what I was doing! [Tim: yeah, yeah] But he made me think maybe I did know a little about what I was doing and that was very helpful. [Tim: mhmm]
00:18:01 Sharon Neumann Solow
Uhm, but it was experiences, uhm, like that. Talking to other people who were trying to figure this out, this profession, that helped me think, oh, I want to be part of this profession. [Tim: mhmm]
00:18:19 Tim Curry
There are many places around the world where they're still... at... that... point. Still trying to develop ‘how do they create a course’ or a degree program, train interpreters, all of those questions are still in many countries.
00:18:36 Tim Curry
What advice would you say to those who are trying to set up something for training for interpreters?
00:18:43 Sharon Neumann Solow
Ah, there's so much that I wish would happen in the training of interpreters, but here are some, one, one or two thoughts.
00:18:52 Sharon Neumann Solow
Perhaps the most important thing that comes to my mind is actual practice. And I, I mean by that as realistic, uh, experiences and exercises as possible so that the students don't just talk about the work. And the teachers don't just talk about the work, but they DO the work and experience themselves IN the work and then discuss that in very real terms, having done it.
00:19:27 Sharon Neumann Solow
And I want to say also as a teacher who used to teach and kind of interpret. And now, who really interprets and kind of teaches. Like, I've switched [Tim laughs] from majority work-teaching to majority work-interpreting that has really enriched my teaching.
00:19:47 Sharon Neumann Solow
I think real-world interpreting is important for the teachers or... not all of them. I think some teachers can teach specialized areas. But if you can, keep interpreting if you're going to teach.
00:20:02 Sharon Neumann Solow
Keep interpreting in the real world. Because what happened to me was, I interpreted just what I wanted to interpret because I was working full time as a teacher. [Tim: mhmm] So, I didn't do a lot of the regular work that's out there. That.. Wha-... you know, uh... there's a phrase in English, “boots on the ground,” meaning you're really in it.
00:20:25 Sharon Neumann Solow
You're not just looking from a high view, you're right there, in it. And I think that work being “boots on the ground,” being in the work, interpreting for some little doctor's appointment, then interpreting for, uh, a child who's in physical therapy and interpreting for, umm, a court case, interpreting for whatever...All the hard things, all the easy things – everything, [Tim: mhmm] has enriched my teaching. So, I encourage teachers to keep working.
00:21:00 Sharon Neumann Solow
And I encourage students to keep practicing, to not try to think it through all the time. To think. Work. Think. Work. Because when we apply our learning to actual work, it comes alive in US.
00:21:21 Tim Curry
That's nice, kind of like dancers learning the steps and seeing the patterns that have been put on the floor. They know all of that, but actually doing it and feeling the muscles, and muscles that you haven't used before. For interpreters, we have so many “mental muscles” that we don't use in that way regularly. So yeah, that makes sense.
00:21:43 Sharon Neumann Solow
And you know, when you give that analogy one thing that relates to that... is that I remember one of my students when I taught at the university. She was an "A” student. Excellent grades, but there was something wrong with the system because she was not a good interpreter. [Tim: aaaah]
00:22:02 Sharon Neumann Solow
So, the other piece of advice that I would give is to have some sort of assessment, testing, exams, that REALLY assess, really tests the effectiveness of the work as well as how well they can think about and describe the theories and all the other. And I think the combination is very important to understand the work to be able to talk about the work. That's very important, but we have to also assess, test, whether or not the student is getting what we want them to understand related to actual practice. [Tim: mhmm]
00:22:45 Sharon Neumann Solow
So, I also think it's really important to have toward the end of the training a VERY significant mentoring and or practicum, internship, whatever you might call it. But where the interpreter is in the field doing some work in safe environments where there's another interpreter who's experienced. To make sure that nobody, you know, nobody dies, [both continue chuckling] nobody goes to jail, nobody gets sick, nobody forgets to take their medicine, nobody you know does the wrong exercise, whatever. [Tim: mhmm]
00:23:23 Sharon Neumann Solow
So, there's one interpreter who's there to monitor and mentor and supervise, but the student who is now, a burgeoning, a beginning professional has real life experience.
00:23:37 Tim Curry
And they have that view from the mentor which direction to go with their interpreting skills?
00:23:43 Sharon Neumann Solow
Little bit like my first client who said, “uh, don't do that. Yeah, do that. No, don't do that.” [Both laughing]
00:23:51 Tim Curry
Yeah, and because you're also getting the clients feedback and learning what to look for, what is feedback and what is not feedback.
00:24:00 Sharon Neumann Solow
Yes. I like that, the way you said that. ‘Learning what is and is not feedback.’ Because here's the other thing. Every interpreter learns, I hope, before too long...
00:24:13 Sharon Neumann Solow
That not EVERYTHING is about them. [Tim laughs] So, the deaf client might look confused, but it might not be the interpretation.
00:24:22 Sharon Neumann Solow
I think it's very important to assume it could be [Tim laughs] and to check that to see, you know, if it’s something I did, [Tim: mhmm] but to not assume that everything is related to the interpretation. [Tim: Yes]
00:24:36 Sharon Neumann Solow
And this is the dichotomy: Not assume everything is related to the interpretation and check to be sure that everything isn't ... related to the interpretation 'cause it might be. [Tim laughs: Exactly]
00:24:51 Sharon Neumann Solow
We live in a complicated world. [smiling laugh]
00:24:53 Tim Curry
[laughing] Yes, exactly and we have to interpret it. [Sharon: YES!]
[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]
00:25:03 Tim Curry [ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]
It's always nice to talk to Sharon Neumann Solow.
00:25:06 Tim Curry
I would first like to point out that Sharon said a lot of things in this episode or in this interview that I say in some of my episodes already that was not planned in any way. But it was a pleasant surprise.
00:25:19 Tim Curry
Now let me try to summarize a few key points from this episode. The first one is about our ego.
00:25:28 Tim Curry
As interpreters, Sharon points out that we should use our ego in two ways. One, it should push us to do the best work that we can. And number two, we should push the ego away to allow others to shine in that moment.
00:25:46 Tim Curry
And she talks about her experience giving her a broader perspective about our work. I think this is important. She mentions watching and learning from other interpreters, new as well as experienced interpreters.
00:26:02 Tim Curry
The third point I would make is that we as interpreters need to learn how to “read the feedback” from our clients. But when we push away our ego as she said it will allow us to open up to other reasons for the feedback, not necessarily our interpretation or us personally.
00:26:25 Tim Curry
And then when talking about creating a training program for interpreters, one of the important things she mentions is that we should not as students or even teachers, just talk about interpreting we should practice interpreting in a real as possible situation and then talk about what has happened...connecting it to the theory or the process models that sort of thing.
00:26:50 Tim Curry
Which connects to her point of academic knowledge does not necessarily mean a good interpreter.
00:26:58 Tim Curry
There must be some type of testing or assessment of their interpreting skills, and this is very crucial for the communities that we serve to have trust in us to know that those who work as interpreters have proven that they have the skills to do so.
00:27:17 Tim Curry
So, there's more to come with Sharon Neumann Solow next week.
00:27:19 Tim Curry
For now, check out her website. The link will be in the description for this episode and as always, I will see you next week.
00:27:27 Tim Curry
Take Care now.
[ROCK EXIT MUSIC FADES OUT]
You can Support the show!
00:00:02 Tim Curry [INTRO MUSIC STARTS]
Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter’s Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything, sign language interpreting, the ends, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know, more go to interpretersworkshop.com. Let's start talking... interpreting. [INTRO MUSIC ENDS]
00:00:35 Tim Curry
And now the quote of the day by German writer Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, “Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Wishing is not enough, we must do.” Today starts the interview with a wonderful interpreter who has applied much of her knowledge to our profession. And I think we can only wish that we can do as much as she is done.
00:01:05 Tim Curry
Now let's start talking...with Sharon Neumann Solow.
[SHORT MUSICAL TRANSITION]
00:01:14 Tim Curry
Thinking about how to introduce you to this wide audience, which is multicultural, multilingual... I know you have traveled many places but let me try to summarize ...your life.
00:01:28 Tim Curry
Sharon Neumann Solow is an American interpreter. She began interpreting about the same time as the profession started developing in the US. Her experiences are vast and that is why I'm interviewing her today.
00:01:48 Tim Curry
She is an educator, a consultant an author, a performer, a television star, an inspiring presenter, a mentor and an inspiration for many interpreters in the US and abroad. And I hope to give you some of that insight from her today in this very brief session with her.
00:02:20 Tim Curry
So, Sharon, welcome. We're very happy to have you.
00:02:22 Sharon Neumann Solow
Thank you, that is a very kind introduction. Thank you.
00:02:27 Sharon Neumann Solow
I'm happy to be here and I'm very impressed that you have this podcast. What a gift to the community ...of interpreters I mean.
00:02:35 Tim Curry
Well, thank you. It is hopefully a place that they can learn from you, and from all of us every week. That’s the goal.
00:02:41 Tim Curry
We've talked many times, but I think there's something that you could share with us, your overall philosophy or your overall perspective of the field of interpreting.
00:02:54 Sharon Neumann Solow
The work of interpreting, in my view, is soooo different than so many other kinds of work. And what it is, is trying to create a world in which people who don't use the same language, feel as though they're talking directly to one another.
00:03:14 Sharon Neumann Solow
Feel as though they're hearing directly from someone the information that person is giving.
00:03:20 Sharon Neumann Solow
That's sort of the broad thing.
00:03:22 Tim Curry
That's very good. That touches my experience... yeah.
00:03:26 Sharon Neumann Solow
I think the critical feature that creates that is... is a sort of a contradiction of terms. It is...I have to be totally present. As an interpreter, I must be totally there. Uhm, I have to be focused. I have to be involved in everything that's going on and really doing my work and at the same time I have to let my ego, my pride, my sense of “myself as important,” GO. I need to be a channel. I need to be a way that people can talk to each other. And to do MY best. So that's my ego, helping me be better. And then I have to throw my ego away. So that I don't care how other people look at me or think of me. And I don't want the attention. I want them to look at each other.
00:04:28 Sharon Neumann Solow
So, it's a... It's a challenge, but I think beautiful challenge. As I watch interpreters. This is a challenge because sometimes interpreters like for other people to pay attention to them, they like to be important. They like to be the center of attention, and this is a contradiction, 'cause you are the center of intention, attention and you shouldn't try to be. [laughing]
00:04:58 Tim Curry
I like the phrase “center of intention”.
00:05:01 Sharon Neumann Solow
[Bursts into laughter] Yeah, I know... That was a good slip, good error.
00:05:04 Tim Curry
For ...yeah, it's perfect. [chuckles]
00:05:08 Tim Curry
Those who prefer the center of attention, means they're the “center of intention”.
00:05:13 Sharon Neumann Solow
Yes! Yes! Exactly! [laughing]
00:05:13 Tim Curry
I love that. I love that term. [laughter in his voice]
00:05:18 Tim Curry
Well, where do you think that... your view comes from?
00:05:23 Sharon Neumann Solow
Ooooh! Good question, uhm. [pauses] Lots and lots of experience. [both laugh]
00:05:31 Sharon Neumann Solow
But also, from watching and learning from other interpreters... of all sorts, even interpreters who are far less experienced. But definitely from people that were much more experienced than me. I like to always credit one person who taught me so much (well there's a couple) but Lou Fant, who was a leader in the American interpreting community, an actor and a teacher and a mentor. And he was very confident and sure of himself in his work and in the world, but he was also very humble and very interested in other people and what was going on. And open, open, open to any learning.
00:06:28 Sharon Neumann Solow
I always say I want to grow up and be like that.
00:06:32 Sharon Neumann Solow
One of my first supervisors when I first started working was a woman named Virginia Hughes and she is a real, another real pioneer in the field of interpreting in the United States. And she, just like Lou, she was “what she talked.” She behaved as she believed. She never put herself first. She always put the communication first, the clients first.
00:07:01 Sharon Neumann Solow
And that was an early, early, early, part of my learning from both of them and other wonderful teachers as well. And every time I watch even today, as I watch other interpreters, when I work as a team with another interpreter, when that interpreter is genuinely focused on the work and not themselves. The work is usually sooo much better. And when the interpreter that I work with, unfortunately is focused on themselves, the work suffers.
00:07:38 Sharon Neumann Solow
But the daily “awareness,” Tim, you know [Tim: mmhmm] DAILY, as well as something I learned very young. Thank goodness! ...from these wonderful teachers.
00:07:46 Tim Curry
So, you learned from them, what was it like? What did it look like? Take us back to that time when you first started interpreting.
00:07:56 Tim Curry
Now I know personally that you are a CODA and so you probably have been technically interpreting your whole life. But what was the experience like when you first started interpreting and when you felt that moment: “This is my profession.”
00:08:15 Sharon Neumann Solow
[“mmm” - THINKING] Well, I, I did interpret all my life because of my Deaf parents and the Deaf community that I was very heavily involved with. Of course, [Tim: mhmm] 'cause that was their community, [Tim: Yes.] but the first time I ever interpreted professionally was a very odd circumstance.
00:08:34 Sharon Neumann Solow
It was in a doctoral program at a university, and I was 15 years old and...
00:08:41 Tim Curry
...You say fifteen “one...five”?
00:08:44 Sharon Neumann Solow
One, five...One, five. [Tim: OK] I was 15. I was in high school, [Tim chuckles softly] and I got... I worked first in the summer before the, the next year, but then during my school year, I had a special blue pass that allowed me to leave school at my fifth period so that I could go to the university and interpret the coursework.
00:09:10 Tim Curry
So, you left during the school day [Sharon: Yes] towards the end you were allowed to leave to go interpret at the university, huh, OK.
00:09:17 Sharon Neumann Solow
I left before the rest of the students left. [Tim laughing] It was a real, a really excellent, excellent benefit. [She says with humor. Tim laughing.]
00:09:28 Sharon Neumann Solow
But I would go over to the university and interpret, eh...ah...
00:09:32 Sharon Neumann Solow
…and in the summer, I interpreted, but I was interpreting for things way beyond my knowledge and my sophistication.
00:09:41 Sharon Neumann Solow
So that first transition into interpreting was very, very rocky. I didn't understand very much of what I was talking about, and I didn't have ANY experience in terms of watching other people interpret. There had never been anyone.
00:10:01 Sharon Neumann Solow
I had never seen anyone do this professionally, [Tim: Wow] just little smidgens here and there. [Tim: mmhmm] But... For example, we did not have an active Deaf community in terms of a religious place like a church or a temple. [Tim: mhmm] They didn't have an interpreter there that I was aware of. We just didn't have anybody who interpreted anything except we would go to the school for the deaf, the residential school for the deaf.
00:10:32 Sharon Neumann Solow
And maybe there would be a person, one of the staff members who would sign while somebody else was giving a spoken introduction because the parents couldn't all sign for example. So ...very rare [Tim: Wow, mhmm] that I saw anybody doing anything that I would call interpreting. But the gift of my life was that the students, the Deaf doctoral students that I interpreted for were incredible people.
00:11:02 Sharon Neumann Solow
And they taught me [slight pause for emphasis] personally by reacting to me. The whole time I would interpret they would NOOOOD, or they would nod negatively, or they would make a look of great perplexity on their face like, they'd be confused. [Tim: uh huh]
00:11:22 Sharon Neumann Solow
Or they would like...signing a little thing to correct me or they would, umm, just... They gave me a lot of cues, a lot of information in their body language and their gestures and their signing and, and their eyes and everything. I feel like they were directing my interpreting on a micro level like really closely, because I didn't know anything.
00:11:51 Sharon Neumann Solow
And so, they were like going, “Yeah, do that. Don't do that. Yeah, do that. Don't do that. Oooh, do more of that. Do MORE of that. Oooh more of that, oh, don't do that, EVER.” [Tim chuckling]
00:11:59 Sharon Neumann Solow
So, I was getting that message from the Deaf doctoral students who were... ‘MECH’ [sound means extremely more], a million times more prepared than I was [Tim chuckles] for this environment, and that molded me in a couple of really wonderful ways.
00:12:14 Sharon Neumann Solow
First, it helped me understand what we do as interpreters, [Tim: mhmm] because they knew what they wanted. Thank you, God! [Tim: Yes.] But secondly, it taught me that really important thing that I don't know that everybody understands, which is, the person who's the client... (You know, the deaf person or the hearing person, but in this case mostly for us deaf people.) [Tim: mhmm] That person knows better than I do what they need in many, many cases.
00:12:42 Tim Curry
Yes, yes.
00:12:44 Sharon Neumann Solow
There are times when that's not true, like with small children or certain things, [Tim: mhmm, sure] but they often know what they need and want. And if I pay attention, they don't always know how to tell me what they want. But if I pay attention, I see in their response what they want and need. And I can try or succeed [chuckles] in moving my interpretation toward what they prefer and need.
00:13:11 Sharon Neumann Solow
But I think that was ingrained in me very early, and it's been a very gi-... a very large gift in terms of helping me to be what I hope is the best I can be.
00:13:23 Sharon Neumann Solow
And how I knew that it was time that this would be my profession was, uhm, when how was it that I knew it would be my profession? I didn't... for a really long time. I sort of fell into it [Tim: mhmm] and one day.
00:13:42 Sharon Neumann Solow
And I don't know what day that was. But one day I realized that not only was this something I could do professionally, for REAL, like as a career. But also, that it was something that identified me. Like, THAT’S. WHO. I. AM. I'm an interpreter!
00:14:04 Sharon Neumann Solow
And I wanted desperately to be better at it. And I wanted to teach it, because I want-... and I didn't want to teach it 'cause I wanted-... [now with smile in her voice] to be honest, I didn't want to teach it so that other people would understand. I wanted to teach it because I wanted to understand.
00:14:26 Sharon Neumann Solow
And there weren't any teachers who taught interpreting. [Tim: mhmm] So, every time I would go to find something to learn something, it would turn around to me teaching it so that I could understand it better. [Tim: mhmm] And so I have always said, ‘I am so grateful because I pretended to teach, but what I was really doing was learning.
00:14:45 Tim Curry
Yeah, that's true.
[ROCK MUSIC TRANSITION STARTS]
00:14:49 Tim Curry
I hope you're enjoying this as much as I am. If you have any ideas for the podcast, contact me at interpretersworkshop.com. For now, let's go back.
[ROCK MUSIC TRANSITION ENDS]
00:15:03 Tim Curry
So, you say there were no teachers or no courses or no programs. When, if I may ask, [Sharon: Yeah] what time period are we talking about?
00:15:14 Sharon Neumann Solow
Oh, I started interpreting in 1965, so the National Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf (RID) was founded in 1964. I never met anyone who had any experience interpreting until 1968 ...maybe nine, 1968 or 9 when I worked... I left my home in Arizona and, which is in the southwest of the United States, and I went to the... close to the East Coast to Rochester, NY. [Tim: mhmm]
00:15:51 Sharon Neumann Solow
Where the National Technical Institute for the Deaf (NTID) was just starting, [Tim: mhmm, wow] just founded, and they'd not written interpreters into their grant. And so, they... one of those doctoral students that I had interpreted for asked me if I would come out, because they had no interpreters. [Tim: aaahh]
00:16:13 Sharon Neumann Solow
And so, I did.
00:16:15 Sharon Neumann Solow
What an adventure. [Tim chuckles] So I was 18 years old, [Tim: oooh] and I moved to Rochester. Aah, to interpret at NTID, The National Technical Institute for the Deaf, and at the National Technical Institute for the Deaf was the first time I ever met other people, they started hiring other interpreters, so we were all new. [Tim: mhmm]
00:16:39 Sharon Neumann Solow
We were all new to the “gig” of interpreting, [Tim: Yeah] but we started to at least have conversations.
00:16:45 Sharon Neumann Solow
The only other colleague I'd had before was my sister, who was a gift to me, [Tim: yeeah] but she was my sister.
00:16:52 Sharon Neumann Solow
And to be fair, the, the hearing student who went to school... who was in the doctoral program, Norm Tully. He went to the... he was going through that same program, and he mentored me.
00:17:04 Sharon Neumann Solow
Truly, he did help me a lot to help me know what to do. [hee-hee] He was the first person who ever said, “Well, you just listen to what they say and then you sign it.” [both burst out laughing]
00:17:16 Tim Curry
Well, that's true. That's the basic.
00:17:18 Sharon Neumann Solow
Very helpful. And, and much more, much more. He was very helpful, but at NTID and I was just fortunate because it was such a big program. It was a very important program.
00:17:30 Sharon Neumann Solow
Lou Fant was [Tim: mhmm] a part of the National Theatre of the Deaf at that time. And they came to NTID, and I met Lou there. And he, for some generous reason, reached out to me...you know, in a conversation and said, “I hope you continue doing this.” And he gave me a lot of encouragement because I didn't know what I was doing! [Tim: yeah, yeah] But he made me think maybe I did know a little about what I was doing and that was very helpful. [Tim: mhmm]
00:18:01 Sharon Neumann Solow
Uhm, but it was experiences, uhm, like that. Talking to other people who were trying to figure this out, this profession, that helped me think, oh, I want to be part of this profession. [Tim: mhmm]
00:18:19 Tim Curry
There are many places around the world where they're still... at... that... point. Still trying to develop ‘how do they create a course’ or a degree program, train interpreters, all of those questions are still in many countries.
00:18:36 Tim Curry
What advice would you say to those who are trying to set up something for training for interpreters?
00:18:43 Sharon Neumann Solow
Ah, there's so much that I wish would happen in the training of interpreters, but here are some, one, one or two thoughts.
00:18:52 Sharon Neumann Solow
Perhaps the most important thing that comes to my mind is actual practice. And I, I mean by that as realistic, uh, experiences and exercises as possible so that the students don't just talk about the work. And the teachers don't just talk about the work, but they DO the work and experience themselves IN the work and then discuss that in very real terms, having done it.
00:19:27 Sharon Neumann Solow
And I want to say also as a teacher who used to teach and kind of interpret. And now, who really interprets and kind of teaches. Like, I've switched [Tim laughs] from majority work-teaching to majority work-interpreting that has really enriched my teaching.
00:19:47 Sharon Neumann Solow
I think real-world interpreting is important for the teachers or... not all of them. I think some teachers can teach specialized areas. But if you can, keep interpreting if you're going to teach.
00:20:02 Sharon Neumann Solow
Keep interpreting in the real world. Because what happened to me was, I interpreted just what I wanted to interpret because I was working full time as a teacher. [Tim: mhmm] So, I didn't do a lot of the regular work that's out there. That.. Wha-... you know, uh... there's a phrase in English, “boots on the ground,” meaning you're really in it.
00:20:25 Sharon Neumann Solow
You're not just looking from a high view, you're right there, in it. And I think that work being “boots on the ground,” being in the work, interpreting for some little doctor's appointment, then interpreting for, uh, a child who's in physical therapy and interpreting for, umm, a court case, interpreting for whatever...All the hard things, all the easy things – everything, [Tim: mhmm] has enriched my teaching. So, I encourage teachers to keep working.
00:21:00 Sharon Neumann Solow
And I encourage students to keep practicing, to not try to think it through all the time. To think. Work. Think. Work. Because when we apply our learning to actual work, it comes alive in US.
00:21:21 Tim Curry
That's nice, kind of like dancers learning the steps and seeing the patterns that have been put on the floor. They know all of that, but actually doing it and feeling the muscles, and muscles that you haven't used before. For interpreters, we have so many “mental muscles” that we don't use in that way regularly. So yeah, that makes sense.
00:21:43 Sharon Neumann Solow
And you know, when you give that analogy one thing that relates to that... is that I remember one of my students when I taught at the university. She was an "A” student. Excellent grades, but there was something wrong with the system because she was not a good interpreter. [Tim: aaaah]
00:22:02 Sharon Neumann Solow
So, the other piece of advice that I would give is to have some sort of assessment, testing, exams, that REALLY assess, really tests the effectiveness of the work as well as how well they can think about and describe the theories and all the other. And I think the combination is very important to understand the work to be able to talk about the work. That's very important, but we have to also assess, test, whether or not the student is getting what we want them to understand related to actual practice. [Tim: mhmm]
00:22:45 Sharon Neumann Solow
So, I also think it's really important to have toward the end of the training a VERY significant mentoring and or practicum, internship, whatever you might call it. But where the interpreter is in the field doing some work in safe environments where there's another interpreter who's experienced. To make sure that nobody, you know, nobody dies, [both continue chuckling] nobody goes to jail, nobody gets sick, nobody forgets to take their medicine, nobody you know does the wrong exercise, whatever. [Tim: mhmm]
00:23:23 Sharon Neumann Solow
So, there's one interpreter who's there to monitor and mentor and supervise, but the student who is now, a burgeoning, a beginning professional has real life experience.
00:23:37 Tim Curry
And they have that view from the mentor which direction to go with their interpreting skills?
00:23:43 Sharon Neumann Solow
Little bit like my first client who said, “uh, don't do that. Yeah, do that. No, don't do that.” [Both laughing]
00:23:51 Tim Curry
Yeah, and because you're also getting the clients feedback and learning what to look for, what is feedback and what is not feedback.
00:24:00 Sharon Neumann Solow
Yes. I like that, the way you said that. ‘Learning what is and is not feedback.’ Because here's the other thing. Every interpreter learns, I hope, before too long...
00:24:13 Sharon Neumann Solow
That not EVERYTHING is about them. [Tim laughs] So, the deaf client might look confused, but it might not be the interpretation.
00:24:22 Sharon Neumann Solow
I think it's very important to assume it could be [Tim laughs] and to check that to see, you know, if it’s something I did, [Tim: mhmm] but to not assume that everything is related to the interpretation. [Tim: Yes]
00:24:36 Sharon Neumann Solow
And this is the dichotomy: Not assume everything is related to the interpretation and check to be sure that everything isn't ... related to the interpretation 'cause it might be. [Tim laughs: Exactly]
00:24:51 Sharon Neumann Solow
We live in a complicated world. [smiling laugh]
00:24:53 Tim Curry
[laughing] Yes, exactly and we have to interpret it. [Sharon: YES!]
[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]
00:25:03 Tim Curry [ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]
It's always nice to talk to Sharon Neumann Solow.
00:25:06 Tim Curry
I would first like to point out that Sharon said a lot of things in this episode or in this interview that I say in some of my episodes already that was not planned in any way. But it was a pleasant surprise.
00:25:19 Tim Curry
Now let me try to summarize a few key points from this episode. The first one is about our ego.
00:25:28 Tim Curry
As interpreters, Sharon points out that we should use our ego in two ways. One, it should push us to do the best work that we can. And number two, we should push the ego away to allow others to shine in that moment.
00:25:46 Tim Curry
And she talks about her experience giving her a broader perspective about our work. I think this is important. She mentions watching and learning from other interpreters, new as well as experienced interpreters.
00:26:02 Tim Curry
The third point I would make is that we as interpreters need to learn how to “read the feedback” from our clients. But when we push away our ego as she said it will allow us to open up to other reasons for the feedback, not necessarily our interpretation or us personally.
00:26:25 Tim Curry
And then when talking about creating a training program for interpreters, one of the important things she mentions is that we should not as students or even teachers, just talk about interpreting we should practice interpreting in a real as possible situation and then talk about what has happened...connecting it to the theory or the process models that sort of thing.
00:26:50 Tim Curry
Which connects to her point of academic knowledge does not necessarily mean a good interpreter.
00:26:58 Tim Curry
There must be some type of testing or assessment of their interpreting skills, and this is very crucial for the communities that we serve to have trust in us to know that those who work as interpreters have proven that they have the skills to do so.
00:27:17 Tim Curry
So, there's more to come with Sharon Neumann Solow next week.
00:27:19 Tim Curry
For now, check out her website. The link will be in the description for this episode and as always, I will see you next week.
00:27:27 Tim Curry
Take Care now.
[ROCK EXIT MUSIC FADES OUT]
