Beyond the Screen: Keith Krueger on What's Next for School Technology

WEBVTT
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Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
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and let's integrate this. Hey, welcome to the
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Integrate This EdTech podcast. I'm David Berner
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and joined by co -host Jeremy Mikla. And today
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we have with us a special guest, Keith Krueger,
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CEO of COSIN, the Consortium for School Networking.
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We saw Keith not too long ago at the COSIN conference
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in Chicago. Got to all spend a little bit of
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time there. And it was a great conference and
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we're actually looking forward to having this
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conversation with Keith on a number of different
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hot topics, but we first really want to start
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off with just Keith's journey and where Keith
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started and kind of then to where we got to today.
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So, Keith, welcome to the show, first of all.
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Good to be here. And if you don't mind kind of
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kicking things off for us, just telling us your
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journey, because you are like us. You spent some
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time in Minnesota and so you have some some experiences
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here. You're just talking about some friends
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that you met up with from school. So can you
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tell us a little bit about your early days? I
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do. I grew up in Minnesota on the east side of
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Saint Paul going to Harding High School. In fact.
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My family has very strong roots there. My grandfather
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built the house where my father was born, and
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my mother died. And my entire family, except
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for me, I was the black sheep. I went east to
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Washington, DC, which began my journey on policy
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and politics, which I guess there's some logic
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in the fact that when I was in eighth grade and
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we had to do a career day and they said, what
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do you want to do? And I, I for some reason wanted
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to be a city councilman and interviewed the city,
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local city councilman. So I, I have true nerd
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roots all the way to my beginning. Yeah. And,
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um, you, uh, you've been with coasting for a
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while now. Um, and can you tell us like what
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maybe, maybe we could just say, what, what was
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the state of ed tech when you first started?
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Sure. Well, I had worked on Capitol Hill on telecommunications
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policy, and I was not that interested in the
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industry fights. I was more interested in how
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do we use technology to make a difference in
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schools and libraries and healthcare. And the
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state of it was, you know, very early on as the
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early browsers in 1990. to when COSON was founded
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and I started working with them three years later.
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So I've been over 30 years with it. And, you
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know, I think just as I came on board, it was
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why would we want to connect? They said schools,
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but we really argued for classrooms that if you
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only had one connection to a school, that wasn't
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going to be very good instructionally. So it
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was the early days of having a browser, putting
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the world on the internet. And I think we're
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at another one of those big inflection moments
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with AI. Yeah, and just looking at, so Google
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came out in Was it 96, I think? Yeah. And so
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you kind of you've been around for both that
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experience where there was that boom and everybody's
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trying to figure that out. And then you have
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like now this AI boom. What kind of similarities
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do you see there? Just anything? You know, I
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think there are similarities and there are profound
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differences. The similarity is there's always
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the hope that every technology will be transformative.
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Perhaps it is a transformative technology with
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AI, but only if we make sure that we have the
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human involved in it and make sure that we're
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solving real problems. And too often it's sometimes
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been technology in search of a problem. I'll
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also say that what the moment that's changed
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is, you know, for the last 20 years, we could
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have the assumption that most parents, most policymakers
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agreed that connecting everyone to the internet
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was a good thing and making technology as ubiquitous
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as possible. I think we're getting a lot of questions
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in a post -COVID moment. where parents are saying
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we're not liking what we're seeing kids doing
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on screens. And so there's concerns about that.
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And I don't think we've always done a good job
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of talking about how education technology is
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different than social media and cell phones.
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So it is a different moment. Yeah, and I think
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we plan to get into some of that screen time
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discussion here in just a little bit here, but
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Kosen represents technology leaders from across
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more than 2000 different school districts and
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as kind of the organization that represents those
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those people in that CTO type of a role, you
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know, what are the what are the issues that are
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really keeping those leaders up at night? Is
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it screen times or is it is it or are there many
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things? There are many things. In terms of our
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survey, the number one concern and has been for
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eight years is cybersecurity and closely related
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to that is keeping data private and protected.
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Certainly the challenges right now around cutbacks
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and funding sources. And how do we use AI appropriately?
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And that's a fast moving thing. So those are
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some of the the greatest hits from the education
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technology community. Yeah, and that's definitely
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something I know we've seen around here is some
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of the schools that have even been targeted for
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ransom attacks or other cyber attacks. What is
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it that you think makes schools vulnerable to
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those types of incidents? Yeah, and I think it's
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a great question and a lot of parents and maybe
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school board members or superintendents say,
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well, what do we have that's so valuable? And
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we have a lot of information and we have what's
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called a soft target. We're very understaffed.
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Oh, even though we just said that from a chief
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technology officer, it's the number one priority.
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When we ask follow up questions of, well, you
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know, do you even have one full -time equivalent
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dedicated to cybersecurity? Only one in three
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school districts do. So what is the information
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that cyber criminals are trying to get to? And
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we actually do have a lot of information, personal
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identifiable, about students and families. Often
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the school district is the largest employer in
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a community. And so that information is valuable.
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We also know it's a high visibility institution.
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And so when it goes down on the network, that's
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a challenge. In fact, Homeland Security has identified
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K -12 as the number one targeted sector for ransomware.
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So that means we have a lot of information. You
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know, you may say, well, you know, what is it
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about a student that would be valuable? It's
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particularly valuable because they are clean
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credit. And if you can get them and hold the
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data for a couple, a year or two or five, when
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they turn 18, the cyber criminals can in fact
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apply for credit or apply for student loans without
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the family or the student knowing it. So there's
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a real challenge there. Yeah, and I think part
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of that responsibility too of educating, you
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know, people about the different threats and
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being aware is definitely part of that too. But
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are there things that COSIN does? that helps
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the CTO and other leaders within the district
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to, you know, prepare them for not just cyber
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incidents, but other things as well. And I'm
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thinking kind of like the CETL certification
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and things and sharing across different networks
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that will help people stay up to date on the
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most current issues and threats. Yeah, as a professional
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association, we like to say that the greatest
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impediment to effective use of technology is
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primarily human. It's the old if you're old enough
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to remember the Pogo cartoon. I've seen the enemy
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and it is me and so therefore. We've tied to
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a framework of essential skills for the person
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leading technology, and that informs our CETL
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certification, Certified Education Technology
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Leader. It's the only aspirational -based, sector
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-based certification for heads of technology
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in K -12. But on top of that, we have lots, we
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build community and through the community, we
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build tools and resources. So in the area, for
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instance, of cybersecurity, we've taken the NIST
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framework for cybersecurity, which is very, very
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comprehensive and complicated and created a K
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-12 version of how you might use that. We also
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have free tools for things like a tabletop Sometimes
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it's hard to get those who don't have technology
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in their title to care about something like cybersecurity.
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They think it's your problem, not my problem.
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And so by doing a simulation, a desktop experience,
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you can much more clearly identify how these
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things rapidly become involved a lot of people
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and why it's important. And we have a lot of
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other resources in terms of privacy of data.
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We have a legal framework that actually dates
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decades back to the 1970s with FERPA and other
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federal laws. But school district leaders often
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don't know what exactly they should do. So we've
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created a trusted learning environment seal.
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for school districts to achieve. It's 25 practices
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that every school district should do in five
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different domains. And actually now you can get,
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you can make progress by getting a badge in each
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of those five areas if you can't quite get to
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the full certification, the full TLE seal all
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at once. I've seen those tabletop exercise happen
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firsthand. In fact, we've had a couple of different
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opportunities to lead different groups of district
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leaders through some of those, you know, situations
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where, and it's really. It's really something
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to see a superintendent at the table with the
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their districts tech coordinator or CTO and even
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bringing in like physical security people the
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buildings and grounds crew that oftentimes, you
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know are controlling access to the physical ass
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you know, physical access to different buildings
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on their campus and, you know, just seeing them
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come together and then, you know, you'll get
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one of them to say, well, I didn't know that
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that happened when you did this and, you know,
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and like, oh, if this were to happen, how would
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we respond? And if, you know, what would we do
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if that? you know, tech leader was on vacation
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for a week. And, you know, just some of those
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conversations, I think, really help bring the
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leadership together so that they can move forward
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in that, you know, cohesive forward direction.
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And everything kind of now runs on the network.
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So your doors, your locks, your security cameras,
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and we're seeing back systems here. Exactly.
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And so, you know, The facility crew may not understand
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that leaving the security code open to the prefactory
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password isn't a good idea. The HVAC system runs
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on the network. And if once the cyber criminals
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are in your network, they can access anything.
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So Keith, as you've kind of been There's a number
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of different issues, but if we dig into AI a
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little bit more, one of the things that you've
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been doing is working with the Stanford's Graduate
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School of Education. And so as you've done that,
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what are some of the things that are coming out
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of there that you think districts are needing
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to hear right now at this time with artificial
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intelligence? Yeah, and I think one thing is
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you need to design things to have the human brain.
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lead with the human, the AI on the side to support
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the human, to support the teacher, to support
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the administrator, rather than replace. That's
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not a helpful framing to think about. And one
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of the things we at COSON have been, again, you
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know, there's a lot of focus on AI literacy,
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a lot of focus on AI cheating. We can come back
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to that. But one thing COSON's been trying to
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do is to help school leaders think more holistically,
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because AI is not one thing. It's going to touch
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everything in terms of the enterprise of the
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school district. And so how do you think about
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how you're going to use AI to do our jobs better,
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whether it's on the administrative side, maybe
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bus schedules or helping teachers do lesson planning
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or things that make their job better. It's easy
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to, not easy, but I think there's a tendency
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to jump in to the classroom conversation, which
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is probably the hardest one to figure out. That's
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not to say we shouldn't figure out that, but
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there are some low -hanging fruit around the
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use of AI that probably would help the life of
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teachers and administrators and the way that
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they communicate with parents in ways that are
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really low -hanging fruit. Can you give us some
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insights, too, just on Like the US Department
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of Education has some AI grant initiatives and
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there's, so as far as like funding for schools,
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is there a best approach to how some of the funding
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can work for schools to be able to utilize AI
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for their teachers and or their students? Or
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what are you seeing on the funding side of things?
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On the funding side, the administration has indicated
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that AI literacy and preparedness is a priority.
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And so all of the competitive grants, you can
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be thinking about how exactly AI might change
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things right now. So I would be. I would be watching
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for all of those existing competitive programs
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and seeing how you how you might use that to
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advance your AI with it within the classroom
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or or within your school system. OK, yeah, and.
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A lot of districts are well like they're still
00:17:27.069 --> 00:17:28.829
trying to figure out what they're going to do.
00:17:28.849 --> 00:17:30.950
I mean, we still have. They're kind of all over
00:17:30.950 --> 00:17:33.200
the place in terms of, you know. even just with
00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:35.579
banning it or, you know, allowing it and how
00:17:35.579 --> 00:17:39.319
do you approach that kind of thing? Do you feel
00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:43.859
like we're starting to see some light at the
00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:45.960
end of the tunnel, I guess you could say as far
00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:51.099
as like what is responsible use? I don't know
00:17:51.099 --> 00:17:52.819
if it's light at the end of the tunnel, but we
00:17:52.819 --> 00:17:55.920
are definitely seeing movement and progress.
00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:59.599
We do an annual survey. We've been doing it now
00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:03.299
for many years. I think it's the 17th year and
00:18:03.299 --> 00:18:06.440
there is some interesting data of the last three
00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:10.819
years showing, you know, just two years ago,
00:18:10.940 --> 00:18:13.819
very few school districts had any guidance around
00:18:13.819 --> 00:18:17.720
AI. We've seen a lot of progress in that area
00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:21.690
now. You can look at other surveys and teachers
00:18:21.690 --> 00:18:24.390
will still say they're not being trained or prepared,
00:18:24.609 --> 00:18:28.109
but I will say from a school district perspective,
00:18:28.650 --> 00:18:33.490
they are putting emphasis on updating existing
00:18:33.490 --> 00:18:37.529
guidance, for instance, acceptable use policies.
00:18:38.470 --> 00:18:43.109
What does that look like in an AI world? In COSON,
00:18:43.549 --> 00:18:47.250
along with ISTE and ATLAS, which is the Independent
00:18:47.250 --> 00:18:51.670
School Technology Association, we put out a new
00:18:51.670 --> 00:18:57.170
updated responsible use guidance resource that's
00:18:57.170 --> 00:19:01.690
free and on our website. We also see school districts
00:19:01.690 --> 00:19:05.990
updating their academic integrity policies. You
00:19:05.990 --> 00:19:10.400
hear a lot of concerns around cheating. And you
00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:13.359
mentioned Stanford. They did some fascinating
00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:17.119
research a couple years ago. They had surveyed
00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:22.920
students the year before CHAT GPT. And high school
00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:25.640
students and middle school students admitted,
00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:30.660
you know, it's 75, 85 % of students saying, yes,
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:33.819
we cheat. Well, statistically, it was exactly
00:19:33.819 --> 00:19:38.009
the same the next every year since. with AI.
00:19:38.990 --> 00:19:42.890
Now students may be more efficient, get a better
00:19:42.890 --> 00:19:46.049
answer with AI, but we've had a cheating problem
00:19:46.049 --> 00:19:50.630
for a long time. And so I think thinking about,
00:19:50.990 --> 00:19:53.430
you know, is it really that we have an AI cheating
00:19:53.430 --> 00:19:56.230
problem or is it that we have a cheating problem?
00:19:56.730 --> 00:20:01.789
And so updating those academic integrity policies
00:20:01.789 --> 00:20:05.890
in an AI world. is a critical thing, and that
00:20:05.890 --> 00:20:09.069
means there has to be consequences when you're
00:20:09.069 --> 00:20:13.670
told not to use AI tools and you use them. There
00:20:13.670 --> 00:20:17.809
has to be disclosure if you're using them. So
00:20:17.809 --> 00:20:19.849
some of those things I think we're seeing a lot
00:20:19.849 --> 00:20:24.589
of progress on. A few school districts are creating
00:20:24.589 --> 00:20:28.490
freestanding AI policy, but that's probably not
00:20:28.490 --> 00:20:32.849
the majority yet. And we're starting to see school
00:20:32.849 --> 00:20:36.230
districts thinking about their policies around
00:20:36.230 --> 00:20:39.289
data use and governance and what does that look
00:20:39.289 --> 00:20:43.609
like in an AI world? It's all very complicated.
00:20:44.049 --> 00:20:48.809
And I think expecting that we're going to have
00:20:48.809 --> 00:20:52.210
an answer to all these or whatever today's answer
00:20:52.210 --> 00:20:55.529
is may be different next week, next month, next
00:20:55.529 --> 00:21:00.450
year. Do you feel encouraged by the, we see a
00:21:00.450 --> 00:21:03.839
lot of different organizations putting out um,
00:21:04.579 --> 00:21:07.819
ideas or examples of how these things could be
00:21:07.819 --> 00:21:10.380
done. Kosen included, right? I mean, Kosen has
00:21:10.380 --> 00:21:14.319
the maturity matrix of looking at gen AI, you
00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:16.460
know, from a whole organizational standpoint
00:21:16.460 --> 00:21:18.160
in these seven different domains. And then you
00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:21.700
have other organizations, um, that are focused
00:21:21.700 --> 00:21:25.619
really on heavily on AI literacy piece or things
00:21:25.619 --> 00:21:28.720
like that. And you have, so do you feel encouraged
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:33.559
by the, um, the different amounts and those that
00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:36.839
are offering these free resources out to districts?
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:43.839
Sometimes there can be confusion that's caused
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:47.000
too, especially with AI and how there's so many
00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:50.339
things available, tools included. There are all
00:21:50.339 --> 00:21:52.799
these different tools, but do you feel encouraged
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.009
by the? just the exploration of the different
00:21:56.009 --> 00:21:59.170
things that people. I am encouraged in the fact
00:21:59.170 --> 00:22:03.849
that I think the education community, the nonprofits
00:22:03.849 --> 00:22:09.769
that serve education have worked hard to create
00:22:09.769 --> 00:22:13.269
resources. It's probably overwhelming for the
00:22:13.269 --> 00:22:18.769
average district or teacher. So one of the reasons
00:22:18.769 --> 00:22:22.869
I like our maturity model is it It first of all
00:22:22.869 --> 00:22:25.710
gives you a comprehensive assessment and there's
00:22:25.710 --> 00:22:29.309
some self assessment tools that you can use.
00:22:29.710 --> 00:22:32.890
to see where you're moving along and where you're
00:22:32.890 --> 00:22:36.170
not, but there's also a prioritization. You can't
00:22:36.170 --> 00:22:40.250
do everything at once. And so what is it that's
00:22:40.250 --> 00:22:44.170
the most important thing from the school system
00:22:44.170 --> 00:22:47.190
perspective? You know, starting with the superintendent
00:22:47.190 --> 00:22:52.250
and the cabinet and prioritizing what are the
00:22:52.250 --> 00:22:54.730
areas that we're really going to focus on because
00:22:54.730 --> 00:22:58.259
you can't do it all at once. Okay, so Keith,
00:22:58.500 --> 00:23:00.920
kind of sticking on this AI theme that we've
00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:02.700
been on here a little bit, I just want to switch
00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:04.859
the lens here a little bit and bring more of
00:23:04.859 --> 00:23:08.059
an accessibility and equity frame to the conversation
00:23:08.059 --> 00:23:12.019
here. Colson's AI and Accessibility and Education
00:23:12.019 --> 00:23:15.519
Report argued that AI holds significant promise
00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:18.740
for students with disabilities, but only if developers
00:23:18.740 --> 00:23:23.359
build accessibility in from the start. So how
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:26.279
wide do you think the gap is currently between
00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:31.119
what we want to see developers do and what they're
00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:34.660
actually doing? Yeah, it's a great question.
00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:38.900
And I think we've tried to partner with our friends
00:23:38.900 --> 00:23:45.099
at Cast and the rest of the... Excuse me. Sorry,
00:23:45.259 --> 00:23:50.240
maybe I should start over. Sorry. No worries.
00:23:50.299 --> 00:23:54.420
This is why we record. If you need to hear anything,
00:23:54.579 --> 00:23:58.079
you can. Yeah, I don't have any. I don't have
00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:00.359
anything right here. Hold on one second. Yeah,
00:24:00.460 --> 00:24:06.200
no worries. I'm just going to put this in once
00:24:06.200 --> 00:24:11.119
so you can. He can pick it up when we get back,
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:13.859
Jeremy, and then I'm just going to mark it here.
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:22.190
Yeah. OK, I'm back. So accessibility and AI is
00:24:22.190 --> 00:24:25.190
a critical, critical topic. And we've tried to
00:24:25.190 --> 00:24:29.710
partner with our friends who are really experts
00:24:29.710 --> 00:24:34.250
on accessibility at CAST and other organizations.
00:24:35.230 --> 00:24:39.130
And, you know, there is kind of a thoughtful
00:24:39.130 --> 00:24:43.890
vision around what the possibilities are. I think
00:24:43.890 --> 00:24:48.619
we're always... and hope that things will move
00:24:48.619 --> 00:24:55.359
faster. But the opportunities are incredible
00:24:55.359 --> 00:25:00.019
now, not only with special needs, but with language,
00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:05.599
with just a whole host of the ability to customize
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:10.299
content for the unique needs of each learner.
00:25:12.299 --> 00:25:14.960
If we don't lean into that, we're making a big
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:19.720
mistake. And I think what we are starting to
00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:24.279
be very concerned about is some of the pushback
00:25:24.279 --> 00:25:28.019
on technology and what implications it might
00:25:28.019 --> 00:25:33.380
have for the accessibility community. You know,
00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:41.640
kids with special needs have... special technologies
00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:45.220
that help them learn. And so when we have blanket
00:25:45.220 --> 00:25:49.579
kind of pronouncements that all screens are bad,
00:25:50.099 --> 00:25:53.660
well, there are kids that the only way they may
00:25:53.660 --> 00:25:57.440
learn is in front of a screen. And so we have
00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:00.940
to be much more thoughtful, I think, about some
00:26:00.940 --> 00:26:05.359
of these emerging concerns. Yeah, I can think
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:08.140
of, you know, several examples where, you know,
00:26:08.339 --> 00:26:10.519
technology for a lot of students can really be
00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:12.920
used to help accelerate their learning or to
00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:15.279
help accommodate their learning. And I think
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:18.500
one of the roadblocks that I think from a classroom
00:26:18.500 --> 00:26:22.039
teacher perspective, and I think back to my time
00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:24.900
in the classroom as well, that a lot of it, I
00:26:24.900 --> 00:26:28.160
wanted to customize learning much more to the
00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:30.900
granular level of an individual student, but
00:26:30.900 --> 00:26:36.349
it came down to time. And I couldn't really spend
00:26:36.349 --> 00:26:40.190
that much time customizing 30 different plans
00:26:40.190 --> 00:26:43.109
for 30 different students. But one of the things
00:26:43.109 --> 00:26:45.970
that AI might be able to do is to step in and
00:26:45.970 --> 00:26:48.809
maybe create some different opportunities or
00:26:48.809 --> 00:26:52.789
choices that students might be able to decide
00:26:52.789 --> 00:26:57.509
what is the best path for me to learn this particular.
00:26:57.849 --> 00:27:00.890
topic or objective or standard. And I think,
00:27:00.950 --> 00:27:02.690
you know, you mentioned CAST, and they've, I
00:27:02.690 --> 00:27:05.329
think, done a lot of great work with advancing
00:27:05.329 --> 00:27:08.049
UDL. And I think that's ultimately what we're
00:27:08.049 --> 00:27:12.009
getting here, too, is that can now be a much
00:27:12.009 --> 00:27:14.210
more realistic possibility for that classroom
00:27:14.210 --> 00:27:18.309
teacher. Yeah, exactly. And you think about the
00:27:18.309 --> 00:27:20.750
languages that students have and the languages
00:27:20.750 --> 00:27:24.150
that parents and guardians have and the ability
00:27:24.509 --> 00:27:27.890
to much better communicate, not just in English,
00:27:27.990 --> 00:27:34.049
but in what their native languages. One of the
00:27:34.049 --> 00:27:36.109
things here, too, and it's along these lines
00:27:36.109 --> 00:27:40.789
of communication here, is according to the ADA
00:27:40.789 --> 00:27:43.609
and districts have now been given a reprieve
00:27:43.609 --> 00:27:47.170
of one year to fully make their online websites
00:27:47.170 --> 00:27:52.230
and presence and records fully accessible. How
00:27:52.230 --> 00:27:54.730
are districts doing in that process? Do they
00:27:54.730 --> 00:27:57.109
need that extra year? Are they thankful for it
00:27:57.109 --> 00:27:59.750
or are they still not? Most school districts
00:27:59.750 --> 00:28:05.009
are very thankful for it, but what I think superintendents
00:28:05.009 --> 00:28:07.829
and heads of technology need to realize that
00:28:07.829 --> 00:28:11.910
the year goes by fast or Excuse me, two years
00:28:11.910 --> 00:28:16.529
if you're smaller. But ultimately, everything
00:28:16.529 --> 00:28:21.069
that you're facing out in terms of your website
00:28:21.069 --> 00:28:25.109
and whatever needs to be much more accessible.
00:28:25.809 --> 00:28:30.490
And that is still a requirement. And I think
00:28:30.490 --> 00:28:34.730
many educators and leaders haven't yet focused
00:28:34.730 --> 00:28:40.180
on. And so hopefully with education service agencies
00:28:40.180 --> 00:28:44.259
like yours, they can get up to speed much faster,
00:28:44.539 --> 00:28:48.640
and hopefully they're building things going forward
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:52.500
that is. I know we've gone through that journey
00:28:52.500 --> 00:28:56.299
here at COSON, and we're a relatively small staffed
00:28:56.299 --> 00:29:02.859
organization, but having the training and building
00:29:02.859 --> 00:29:06.460
things to be accessible going forward is so much
00:29:06.460 --> 00:29:10.519
easier than retrograding and fixing problems
00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:17.819
that aren't. All right, so Keith, as another
00:29:17.819 --> 00:29:20.680
thing that's coming up with the schools are dealing
00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:23.839
with. So not that there's there's many things
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:26.880
that we've kind of discovered here, but another
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:30.500
thing that has come up more recently and has
00:29:30.500 --> 00:29:33.539
districts trying to figure out what to do about
00:29:33.539 --> 00:29:36.769
this is the screen time debate. and legislation
00:29:36.769 --> 00:29:40.230
around that. So as you've, and you've had an
00:29:40.230 --> 00:29:44.049
opportunity to engage with some Congress committees
00:29:44.049 --> 00:29:48.009
on that as well. And so can you at first just
00:29:48.009 --> 00:29:51.089
kind of inform us and help us understand like,
00:29:51.390 --> 00:29:55.730
what was the, how did you get drawn into that
00:29:55.730 --> 00:30:00.210
conversation to testify there at Congress for
00:30:00.210 --> 00:30:04.470
that debate? Well, the conversation really has
00:30:04.470 --> 00:30:07.509
been happening over the last two to three years.
00:30:07.990 --> 00:30:12.430
Jonathan Haidt put out a book, The Anxious Generation,
00:30:12.750 --> 00:30:19.250
and the focus was really on cell phones and social
00:30:19.250 --> 00:30:25.450
media. But over the last few months, excuse me,
00:30:25.450 --> 00:30:31.980
I'm sorry, the conversation has broadened. to
00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:37.900
all screens are bad. And there are legitimate
00:30:37.900 --> 00:30:42.599
concerns that parents and policymakers have around
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:48.980
the use of screens, even at school. But perhaps
00:30:48.980 --> 00:30:52.740
we haven't done the best job at explaining the
00:30:52.740 --> 00:30:56.779
difference between education technology and these
00:30:56.779 --> 00:31:02.200
more consumer personal devices and social media.
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:08.200
And we certainly do want students and their parents
00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:13.079
to not be as focused on distraction. But what
00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:16.859
we want to focus on is instructionally designed,
00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:24.279
well thought out education interventions that
00:31:24.279 --> 00:31:29.420
improve student learning. And unfortunately,
00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:33.460
we're in a moment where everything is kind of
00:31:33.460 --> 00:31:38.220
being put together as though all screens are
00:31:38.220 --> 00:31:41.119
bad. And we were just talking about accessibility,
00:31:41.380 --> 00:31:45.799
that there are students who can only learn with
00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:51.549
assistive technologies. And I think... The way
00:31:51.549 --> 00:31:55.049
that the debate has been framed has been around
00:31:55.049 --> 00:31:59.410
minutes and hours or bands, as opposed to quality.
00:31:59.990 --> 00:32:02.910
And I think we need to reframe that conversation
00:32:02.910 --> 00:32:07.950
to say, not every use of technology is appropriate
00:32:07.950 --> 00:32:12.710
at every moment. should not be in front of a
00:32:12.710 --> 00:32:14.670
screen all the time. And in fact, they aren't
00:32:14.670 --> 00:32:18.049
at school. They need to have time out in the
00:32:18.049 --> 00:32:19.869
playground. They need to have time with Play
00:32:19.869 --> 00:32:23.769
-Doh. They need to create other things. But there's
00:32:23.769 --> 00:32:27.329
a good reason why we have technology that's more
00:32:27.329 --> 00:32:30.430
easily accessible. And sometimes we forget the
00:32:30.430 --> 00:32:34.450
fact of how did we get here? We wanted to have
00:32:34.450 --> 00:32:38.519
a ubiquitous environment that's robust. to enable
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:42.420
kids to have a more personalized learning. And
00:32:42.420 --> 00:32:47.420
yes, there are sometimes, some places, some teachers
00:32:47.420 --> 00:32:50.880
are using technology as digital babysitters.
00:32:50.940 --> 00:32:53.880
And maybe we need to be more clear that that's
00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:57.359
not appropriate. But there are great ways that
00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:00.960
we've seen where technology can, in fact, make
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:06.559
a big difference. And We need to be much more
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:09.880
intentional and thoughtful in talking to parents
00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:13.160
and school board members and superintendents
00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:17.859
about why we're using technology. Yeah, and I
00:33:17.859 --> 00:33:20.180
think I think you kind of covered all that really
00:33:20.180 --> 00:33:23.779
well with just the it's not that all screen time
00:33:23.779 --> 00:33:27.500
is bad. It's just that there there is a there
00:33:27.500 --> 00:33:30.720
should be a purpose and a design to using screens
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:33.529
for instructional time. And I like what you said,
00:33:33.690 --> 00:33:36.170
too, about it. Unfortunately, you are going to
00:33:36.170 --> 00:33:38.829
have where it's sometimes used as a babysitter,
00:33:38.869 --> 00:33:43.130
but we need to really talk about the nuance there
00:33:43.130 --> 00:33:45.809
of when is a good time for screen use and why
00:33:45.809 --> 00:33:48.670
does it help aid students in what they're trying
00:33:48.670 --> 00:33:51.690
to do and prepare them for the future as they
00:33:51.690 --> 00:33:54.650
continue on? Because if you just ban them all
00:33:54.650 --> 00:33:57.230
outright, the reality still is there where they're
00:33:57.230 --> 00:33:59.900
still going to be using it as we do. for our
00:33:59.900 --> 00:34:03.279
jobs as we continue on and leave school, right?
00:34:04.299 --> 00:34:07.359
And there are efforts to go back to paper and
00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:10.099
pencil. Well, not every use of paper and pencil
00:34:10.099 --> 00:34:15.440
is quality. So let's evaluate these things, which
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:18.940
is a better way of teaching and learning. I've
00:34:18.940 --> 00:34:21.400
been around a long time, and so I think back
00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:24.699
to the television debates. And there's a big
00:34:24.699 --> 00:34:28.940
difference between the Simpsons and Sesame Street.
00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:32.980
Sesame Street was instructionally designed. So,
00:34:33.179 --> 00:34:37.320
no, we don't want a Simpson -like education technology
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:41.699
in our classroom, but we probably do want instructionally
00:34:41.699 --> 00:34:44.699
designed things like Sesame Street or Schoolhouse
00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:50.059
Rock. You know, we have to have a more thoughtful
00:34:50.059 --> 00:34:53.380
conversation. And unfortunately, counting minutes
00:34:53.380 --> 00:34:57.840
or pushing for bands is easy, but it probably
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:02.750
isn't the right the right way to go. Yeah, and
00:35:02.750 --> 00:35:07.429
one of the things that Kosen has done is you've
00:35:07.429 --> 00:35:10.570
published a policy briefing on that for state
00:35:10.570 --> 00:35:13.909
leaders to understand this debate, right, and
00:35:13.909 --> 00:35:19.250
what's going on. And so what is the number one
00:35:19.250 --> 00:35:21.510
thing that you think is important to get across
00:35:21.510 --> 00:35:26.289
to school and district leaders about this so
00:35:26.289 --> 00:35:31.139
that they have a good understanding of what's
00:35:31.139 --> 00:35:34.099
going on with these bills that are being... I
00:35:34.099 --> 00:35:36.980
think there's a... We have to... We certainly
00:35:36.980 --> 00:35:39.920
have to start by saying there are legitimate
00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:43.019
concerns. Secondly, we have to say that there's
00:35:43.019 --> 00:35:48.739
a difference between consumer technology and
00:35:48.739 --> 00:35:52.679
educational technology. And what we're arguing
00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:57.219
for is... tying that use of technology for an
00:35:57.219 --> 00:35:59.820
instructional purpose and making sure that we
00:35:59.820 --> 00:36:04.539
have quality and we're not arguing around just
00:36:04.539 --> 00:36:08.400
quantity. Yeah, and then on the opposite side,
00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:11.579
we have where there are folks that are going
00:36:11.579 --> 00:36:14.960
to be voting on these type of things. What do
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:18.900
you think that any governor or state legislature
00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:23.429
should understand before casting a vote for that
00:36:23.429 --> 00:36:26.449
to on one of these bills? I think there's been
00:36:26.449 --> 00:36:30.550
a real rush to judgment in the last few months
00:36:30.550 --> 00:36:34.030
in state legislatures around the country, you
00:36:34.030 --> 00:36:37.730
know, where they're putting age limits on any
00:36:37.730 --> 00:36:41.050
technology, you know, particularly at the youngest
00:36:41.050 --> 00:36:44.630
grades and then at higher middle school and high
00:36:44.630 --> 00:36:49.469
school, putting time limits, saying, you know,
00:36:49.610 --> 00:36:53.550
45 minutes or an hour. And I'm not sure that
00:36:53.550 --> 00:36:57.590
policymakers understand the reality of how complicated
00:36:57.590 --> 00:37:00.389
that would be, for instance, at a middle or high
00:37:00.389 --> 00:37:03.170
school where you have multiple teachers. How
00:37:03.170 --> 00:37:06.570
exactly do you divide up? And it's just the wrong
00:37:06.570 --> 00:37:10.550
question. It's not getting to whether we're using
00:37:10.550 --> 00:37:14.090
the technology in a way that advances education.
00:37:14.650 --> 00:37:18.190
So. Sometimes we have to take a deep breath.
00:37:18.650 --> 00:37:22.730
We have to admit there are legitimate concerns
00:37:22.730 --> 00:37:27.250
around distraction, around mental health use
00:37:27.250 --> 00:37:33.670
of social media, but that shouldn't be confused
00:37:33.670 --> 00:37:36.849
with hopefully the way that we're using technology
00:37:36.849 --> 00:37:41.739
in our schools. I know schools have control over
00:37:41.739 --> 00:37:44.920
the things or they desire to have control over
00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:49.039
the things that happen within their buildings
00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:52.360
and within their scheduled times of day, but
00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:54.739
kids have, you know, and kids spend a significant
00:37:54.739 --> 00:37:58.079
amount of time in school. They also spend a significant
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:03.480
amount of time outside of school. under the supervision
00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:07.480
of their parental unit or guardian, whatever
00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:09.880
that happens to be for their situation with their
00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:13.579
family. But how can schools work with parents
00:38:13.579 --> 00:38:18.619
so that we want to see kids coming into school
00:38:18.619 --> 00:38:21.320
that are getting messages that the parents support
00:38:21.320 --> 00:38:23.320
what schools are doing. And we want to make sure
00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:26.980
that schools can be there to support the things
00:38:26.980 --> 00:38:29.039
that parents want for their students at the same
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:33.989
time. Well, I hear a lot of stories of where
00:38:33.989 --> 00:38:37.690
parents have found out that their student or
00:38:37.690 --> 00:38:40.869
another student has been exposed to some inappropriate
00:38:40.869 --> 00:38:45.050
materials, pornography or whatever. And I think
00:38:45.050 --> 00:38:48.849
school district leaders, heads of technology,
00:38:49.170 --> 00:38:52.130
need to better explain that when you're on the
00:38:52.130 --> 00:38:54.650
school network, when you're on a school provided
00:38:54.650 --> 00:38:58.659
device, it is in fact filtered. Now, that's not
00:38:58.659 --> 00:39:02.460
to say the kids don't try to break it, that the
00:39:02.460 --> 00:39:05.739
filters don't fail, but I can say without a question
00:39:05.739 --> 00:39:10.360
that in most cases, your child is a lot safer
00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:13.860
on a school -provided school network than they
00:39:13.860 --> 00:39:19.079
are on a personal device at home. And so we need
00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:24.199
to better explain that in fact there is a legal
00:39:24.199 --> 00:39:28.079
requirement. Every school district that gets
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:31.639
e -right funding requires compliance with the
00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:35.000
Children's Internet Protection Act. So that is
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:39.519
a fundamental requirement. And I don't think
00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:45.860
that there's a presumption that, and a lot of
00:39:45.860 --> 00:39:51.190
times, you know, if kids are using things that
00:39:51.190 --> 00:39:54.469
aren't on the school network, they do have access
00:39:54.469 --> 00:39:57.429
to a lot of things that are inappropriate. And
00:39:57.429 --> 00:40:00.090
we've got to do, we have to have a partnership
00:40:00.090 --> 00:40:03.710
with parents to help them understand ways to
00:40:03.710 --> 00:40:08.469
limit screens on personal time and including
00:40:08.469 --> 00:40:13.730
for themselves as role models for their children.
00:40:15.500 --> 00:40:18.239
Yeah, and I've seen some of that too. I think
00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:23.480
even within raising my own kids Is that what
00:40:23.480 --> 00:40:26.199
I what they see me doing they they're following,
00:40:26.619 --> 00:40:30.300
you know and being that model You know both in
00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:32.679
the classroom as the teacher but then also as
00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:35.320
the parent and you know setting that expectation
00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:40.500
in fact, I think one of the The parts of Jonathan
00:40:40.500 --> 00:40:43.139
Haidt's book, Anxious Generation, that I really
00:40:43.139 --> 00:40:47.059
appreciated was his emphasis on play. And the
00:40:47.059 --> 00:40:50.219
students getting the opportunity to have that
00:40:50.219 --> 00:40:53.579
self -directed play where they need to work out
00:40:53.579 --> 00:40:56.480
their own rules, work out their own disputes,
00:40:57.159 --> 00:41:03.099
and really become that... that grown -up that
00:41:03.099 --> 00:41:05.239
we want them to become because they know how
00:41:05.239 --> 00:41:07.380
to work with people, they know how to deal with
00:41:07.380 --> 00:41:10.139
stressful situations, they know how to compromise,
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:13.619
and they know how to still have fun. And I know
00:41:13.619 --> 00:41:17.900
he took, I think, some of that from the book,
00:41:18.139 --> 00:41:22.610
Stolen Focus, by, I think, Johann Hari. that
00:41:22.610 --> 00:41:25.969
I see parallels between those different things.
00:41:26.489 --> 00:41:28.510
And schools can do that, I think, within certain
00:41:28.510 --> 00:41:31.510
moments. But it also needs to happen when they're
00:41:31.510 --> 00:41:37.050
outside the buildings. Right. Completely agree.
00:41:38.929 --> 00:41:42.670
And helping parents understand what their role
00:41:42.670 --> 00:41:45.909
is. Not that we're dumping all responsibility
00:41:45.909 --> 00:41:48.969
on them, but they have to be a partner in this
00:41:48.969 --> 00:41:55.380
effort. And yeah. And I think, I know we'll be
00:41:55.380 --> 00:41:59.739
coming out with some better toolkits on how to
00:41:59.739 --> 00:42:02.699
have that conversation with parents at a PTA
00:42:02.699 --> 00:42:06.079
meeting or with the school board at the school
00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:11.280
board meeting. Yeah, so Keith, let's kind of
00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:13.300
switch gears here a little bit, you know, considering
00:42:13.300 --> 00:42:16.199
that we have such an expert on federal policy
00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:21.220
when it comes to technology and education. In
00:42:21.220 --> 00:42:24.039
2025, President Trump signed an executive order
00:42:24.039 --> 00:42:26.480
aimed at blocking states from crafting their
00:42:26.480 --> 00:42:30.539
own AI regulations. From your vantage point,
00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:33.719
representing school districts, what's the risk
00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:38.059
of a regulatory vacuum or making it so that you
00:42:38.059 --> 00:42:44.420
have 50 different state approaches? I think there's
00:42:44.420 --> 00:42:48.820
a framing. at the national level that we are
00:42:48.820 --> 00:42:52.559
going to fall behind China or other countries.
00:42:53.340 --> 00:42:57.119
And what worries me from a education perspective
00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:01.900
is we have a responsibility first and foremost
00:43:01.900 --> 00:43:06.940
to keep kids safe. And so we shouldn't be deploying,
00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:13.119
we can't have a Silicon Valley mindset of try
00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:16.920
it out, break it, fix it. because these are kids.
00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:19.860
And so I think we have to be very thoughtful
00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:24.079
about how we do that. That doesn't mean we need
00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:27.900
to prohibit everything, but we need to test things
00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:32.780
out in safe ways, in sandboxes and things like
00:43:32.780 --> 00:43:37.239
that, virtual sandboxes, I guess I should say,
00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:40.340
to make sure that they play out the way we do.
00:43:40.739 --> 00:43:45.000
And I think we have seen some problematic you
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:49.780
know, AI chat bots that have given bad advice
00:43:49.780 --> 00:43:54.840
to students or not responded to the crisis that
00:43:54.840 --> 00:43:58.659
they were creating, they were skating. And so
00:43:58.659 --> 00:44:01.500
these things really have to be designed in a
00:44:01.500 --> 00:44:08.289
way that is safe and effective. Yeah. You mentioned
00:44:08.289 --> 00:44:11.670
a little bit earlier, too, E -Rate, where a lot
00:44:11.670 --> 00:44:14.269
of public schools get their funding to help for
00:44:14.269 --> 00:44:17.070
their technology initiatives and infrastructure
00:44:17.070 --> 00:44:20.989
that they have in place. And how much of a threat
00:44:20.989 --> 00:44:26.110
is E -Rate under in our current political world
00:44:26.110 --> 00:44:29.789
that we live in? That's a great question. You're
00:44:29.789 --> 00:44:32.949
right. E -Rate is the number one funding source
00:44:32.949 --> 00:44:37.730
for education technology and has been. Excuse
00:44:37.730 --> 00:44:43.409
me. And last year we were very concerned because
00:44:43.409 --> 00:44:47.989
there was a Supreme Court case striking at the
00:44:47.989 --> 00:44:52.389
constitutionality of E -Rate and actual all of
00:44:52.389 --> 00:44:56.289
universal service. E -Rate is part of a program
00:44:56.289 --> 00:44:59.489
that's been around for 70 years, connecting rural
00:44:59.489 --> 00:45:04.809
America to basic telephone service. Excuse me.
00:45:06.190 --> 00:45:10.090
Fortunately, the Supreme Court in a 6 -3 decision
00:45:10.090 --> 00:45:15.090
said it absolutely is constitutional. And so
00:45:15.090 --> 00:45:22.789
the threat to that has been stopped in terms
00:45:22.789 --> 00:45:26.849
of the threat of being declared unconstitutional.
00:45:27.969 --> 00:45:31.219
There are other significant challenges, and they're
00:45:31.219 --> 00:45:34.360
long -standing ones around the funding base.
00:45:35.099 --> 00:45:38.179
You know, it's historically been a tax on long
00:45:38.179 --> 00:45:44.539
-distance charges, and there's increasing costs
00:45:44.539 --> 00:45:48.380
to connect schools, libraries, health care facilities,
00:45:48.900 --> 00:45:52.320
rural America, and yet the funding base has stayed
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:57.780
the same as if it was 20 years ago. And so some
00:45:57.780 --> 00:46:01.199
of us are some of our organizations are working
00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:04.500
together to try to encourage Congress to fix
00:46:04.500 --> 00:46:08.500
the contribution factor. And that's a little
00:46:08.500 --> 00:46:11.619
geeky and not that interesting for educators,
00:46:11.739 --> 00:46:15.460
but critical that we solve the funding base for
00:46:15.460 --> 00:46:19.099
it. Yeah, I mean, it absolutely is critical because
00:46:19.099 --> 00:46:21.320
if you're not going to get the funding for it,
00:46:21.380 --> 00:46:23.159
then teachers aren't going to be able to implement
00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:26.440
it in the classroom. Exactly. Exactly. You know,
00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:30.730
we're very lucky When I go around the world,
00:46:31.369 --> 00:46:38.650
other places are shocked that we have every classroom
00:46:38.650 --> 00:46:46.070
and has broadband pretty much to every school
00:46:46.070 --> 00:46:49.409
and classroom in the country, and it's done in
00:46:49.409 --> 00:46:54.809
a pretty affordable way. So Keith, we've talked
00:46:54.809 --> 00:46:56.650
about a number of different things. And so as
00:46:56.650 --> 00:47:00.030
you start to look at the road ahead and what's
00:47:00.030 --> 00:47:05.269
next for EdTech, if you could give every district
00:47:05.269 --> 00:47:08.050
technology leader just one piece of advice, if
00:47:08.050 --> 00:47:10.230
that's all you could give them for navigating
00:47:10.230 --> 00:47:17.250
the next two years, AI, screen time policy, budgets,
00:47:17.550 --> 00:47:19.570
all these different things that we've touched
00:47:19.570 --> 00:47:24.699
upon. What would you say for advice to give them?
00:47:26.380 --> 00:47:28.860
I think you need community. You need to find
00:47:28.860 --> 00:47:32.179
your peers. Often the education technology leader
00:47:32.179 --> 00:47:35.219
is the only person in a school district thinking
00:47:35.219 --> 00:47:39.659
about some of these things. And so you get involved
00:47:39.659 --> 00:47:43.980
in either the state chapter or the national of
00:47:43.980 --> 00:47:48.159
Kosen. I think also you're going to have to.
00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:52.219
do a better job of communicating why we're using
00:47:52.219 --> 00:47:58.360
technology, the questions, and if you answer
00:47:58.360 --> 00:48:02.320
them in a non -defensive way and are legitimate
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:06.219
that we haven't always used technology in the
00:48:06.219 --> 00:48:10.659
perfect way. We can't leave kids behind. We can't
00:48:10.659 --> 00:48:15.500
wait till they're 18 until we put them in a world
00:48:15.500 --> 00:48:23.059
where they have tools and resources. So that's
00:48:23.059 --> 00:48:26.980
where I'd start. And I think with money, with
00:48:26.980 --> 00:48:29.900
financial challenges that many school districts
00:48:29.900 --> 00:48:35.059
are facing, we're going to have to prioritize
00:48:35.530 --> 00:48:38.269
what is the most important and impactful things
00:48:38.269 --> 00:48:41.050
that have a difference in terms of teaching and
00:48:41.050 --> 00:48:44.110
learning. And we're going to have to make sure
00:48:44.110 --> 00:48:46.849
that superintendents and school boards are our
00:48:46.849 --> 00:48:50.679
partners in that effort. Yeah, and I think that's
00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:53.900
great advice. But we're kind of nearing the end
00:48:53.900 --> 00:48:56.260
of our time here together, Keith. And so I want
00:48:56.260 --> 00:48:58.320
to prepare you for our lightning round that we
00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:01.659
have coming up here. David and I will alternate
00:49:01.659 --> 00:49:04.420
some questions here that we'll ask of you. And
00:49:04.420 --> 00:49:07.920
you can feel free to give a one word or a one
00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:11.190
sentence response or one paragraph. however you'd
00:49:11.190 --> 00:49:13.829
like to elaborate here, but I'm gonna kick it
00:49:13.829 --> 00:49:16.789
off here with the first question for you. And
00:49:16.789 --> 00:49:20.150
it is one that I hope sets an optimistic tone
00:49:20.150 --> 00:49:23.650
here, but what gives you genuine hope about the
00:49:23.650 --> 00:49:26.429
future of public education and technology? What
00:49:26.429 --> 00:49:33.210
keeps you energized? I sit on a board with all
00:49:33.210 --> 00:49:36.150
the other national organizations, teacher unions,
00:49:36.429 --> 00:49:41.400
school boards, superintendents, principals, I
00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:43.760
don't think it's always conveyed to the public,
00:49:44.199 --> 00:49:46.699
but they actually agree on an awful lot of things
00:49:46.699 --> 00:49:49.599
about where we wanna go, how we wanna prepare
00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:55.800
our kids for workforce development. And so I
00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:58.960
am optimistic in the sense that I think people
00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:03.019
can, they don't agree on every single thing,
00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:07.280
but. They agree on many critical, important things,
00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:10.059
and we need to better convey that to parents
00:50:10.059 --> 00:50:14.659
and policymakers. All right. I have a really
00:50:14.659 --> 00:50:16.940
tough one here next for you, Keith. What did
00:50:16.940 --> 00:50:20.480
you want to be when you grew up? Well, if it
00:50:20.480 --> 00:50:24.619
wasn't a politician, how about that? Yes. Unfortunately,
00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:30.780
I don't know. As I said, for career day, I went
00:50:30.780 --> 00:50:34.800
and interviewed the mayor of St. Paul. So my
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:37.760
nerdness, I didn't quite make it there, but I
00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:42.159
did get into policy and politics. You know, assuming
00:50:42.159 --> 00:50:44.639
that politician probably wasn't your first job,
00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:47.530
what was Young Keith doing in high school? In
00:50:47.530 --> 00:50:50.489
high school, the Minnesota State Fair was my
00:50:50.489 --> 00:50:54.690
very first job. I worked at the Prime Steakhouse,
00:50:56.030 --> 00:50:59.369
busing tables. It was not the most exciting job.
00:51:00.030 --> 00:51:03.489
My best friend, his uncle, owned that, and he
00:51:03.489 --> 00:51:06.309
got to be in the ice cream parlor that was connected
00:51:06.309 --> 00:51:09.610
to it, which was a much better job. So I learned
00:51:09.610 --> 00:51:13.880
quickly, it's all in who you know. All right,
00:51:13.880 --> 00:51:17.380
what's your your current guilty pleasure TV show
00:51:17.380 --> 00:51:22.239
or movie right now? I Just finished hacks on
00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:28.400
HBO and I loved it. I thought it was very Clever
00:51:28.400 --> 00:51:33.059
and funny What's the best meal you've ever had?
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:37.619
Or a certain type of food is that you go to if
00:51:37.619 --> 00:51:44.380
you can't recall the the one time I love, like,
00:51:44.559 --> 00:51:54.019
Thai food. I find it... I just like it. What's
00:51:54.019 --> 00:51:55.699
something people would be surprised to know about
00:51:55.699 --> 00:52:08.679
you? I went from Beijing to Ulaanbaatar in Mongolia
00:52:08.679 --> 00:52:12.739
on the... the Trans Mongolian train, which is
00:52:12.739 --> 00:52:17.460
a 36 hour train ride through the mountains and
00:52:17.460 --> 00:52:22.320
planes of kind of looks like of Montana, big
00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:27.699
sky country. Cool, cool. If David and I were
00:52:27.699 --> 00:52:30.500
hosting a conference and it's going to be tomorrow
00:52:30.500 --> 00:52:33.519
and you're keynoting it and you're standing backstage
00:52:33.519 --> 00:52:36.650
and we have someone says. Keith what's gonna
00:52:36.650 --> 00:52:39.630
be your your walk -up song as we we send you
00:52:39.630 --> 00:52:41.730
out onto stage to get the audience all riled
00:52:41.730 --> 00:52:44.909
up What would you want played? Well, it probably
00:52:44.909 --> 00:52:52.289
has to be Elton John's he's still standing Good
00:52:52.289 --> 00:52:54.469
all right this one this next one's rapid -fire.
00:52:54.489 --> 00:52:57.369
This is our this or that portion So you can only
00:52:57.369 --> 00:53:00.489
choose one and so we'll just go through these
00:53:00.489 --> 00:53:06.519
early bird or night owl early bird Alright, road
00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:11.039
trip or flight? I tend to avoid road trips or
00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:18.559
flight. Cook at home or eat out? I'll say cook
00:53:18.559 --> 00:53:27.099
at home. Text or call? Call. Mountains or beach?
00:53:28.739 --> 00:53:31.239
Mountains, in the winter at least, or skiing.
00:53:32.900 --> 00:53:35.420
And the last one to leave the party or first
00:53:35.420 --> 00:53:38.900
one out the door? Probably the last one out of
00:53:38.900 --> 00:53:43.860
party. My spouse would definitely say that. Well,
00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:46.980
Keith, it's been a pleasure having you here and
00:53:46.980 --> 00:53:49.019
we just want to give you a little bit of a time
00:53:49.019 --> 00:53:52.320
here that if you want to share anything out where
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:55.480
people could contact you or get a hold of Kosen
00:53:55.480 --> 00:53:58.260
or if you have anything in the near future coming
00:53:58.260 --> 00:54:00.119
up that you'd like to promote, you know, we want
00:54:00.119 --> 00:54:04.599
to give you the stage. Sure. Well, we have lots
00:54:04.599 --> 00:54:08.340
of things on our website at coson .org, and I
00:54:08.340 --> 00:54:13.019
would particularly mention our updated Responsible
00:54:13.019 --> 00:54:18.280
Use Guide that we put out last month that helpfully
00:54:18.280 --> 00:54:21.599
will help people take their traditional acceptable
00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:24.480
use policies, which were all about a bunch of
00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:30.460
don'ts, and think about the do's. Perfect. Well,
00:54:30.539 --> 00:54:33.500
Keith, it's been a pleasure. We hope to connect
00:54:33.500 --> 00:54:35.380
with you again here soon. It sounds like we're
00:54:35.380 --> 00:54:38.099
going to be at a couple of similar places coming
00:54:38.099 --> 00:54:41.519
up this month. Looking forward to it. Looking
00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:45.320
forward to St. Cloud for the AI Summit. Yeah,
00:54:45.340 --> 00:54:49.340
we'll see you there. Thanks, Keith. Thanks for
00:54:49.340 --> 00:54:52.059
listening to Integrate This. Want to take your
00:54:52.059 --> 00:54:54.460
learning further? Head over to our YouTube channel
00:54:54.460 --> 00:54:58.119
for quick tutorials, deep dives, and more edtech
00:54:58.119 --> 00:55:01.260
tips you can use right away. Don't forget to
00:55:01.260 --> 00:55:04.260
subscribe and catch new podcast episodes every
00:55:04.260 --> 00:55:07.860
Thursday on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get
00:55:07.860 --> 00:55:11.460
your podcasts. Until next time, keep exploring,
00:55:12.059 --> 00:55:14.679
keep innovating, and keep integrating this.