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If you caught the episode right before this one, we just unpacked some really fascinating data that shows us how people are finding podcasts today.
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And this matters for you and for your podcast because if you want to help more listeners find your show, well, we need to know how listeners are finding shows to begin with.
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And that is why Roger Narran from Jar Podcast Solutions is back in the studio with us to help you make sense of what this data means and what these findings reveal for your show so that you can build a better strategy to get discovered by listeners who need what you have to offer.
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Welcome to Insider Secrets to a Top 100 podcast.
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I'm your host, Courtney Elmer.
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Let's make your podcast binge-worthy.
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Roger, welcome back.
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Hey Courtney, thank you so much.
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And what a fun first episode.
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And if you're if you're listening or watching and you didn't catch the first episode, we definitely have an episode that we got to beat with this one because the last one was amazing.
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I agree.
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We're going to link to it below in the show notes.
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It's easy for you to click, easy for you to find.
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And you know what I love about these two-part episodes that we do with our guests, Roger, is that it allows us to go deeper.
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And yes, we could have one 60-minute conversation and unpacking all of this in depth.
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But let's be honest, our attention spans are a lot shorter than they ever used to be.
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And for me, this is just a really beautiful opportunity, not only for our listeners to get more of your wisdom, they get more FaceTime and ear time with you.
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It's also a great opportunity for you to be able to unpack your knowledge.
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Then, you know, we wouldn't be able to go as deep into a 20, 30-minute episode.
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So this is a gift for me to be here with you unpacking this.
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And if you didn't catch the previous episode, we were talking about the latest data on how listeners are finding podcasts so that you know how then to go out and engineer your show so you can help more people find it.
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And this is where the strategy comes into play, which I love.
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So, Roger, before we dive into the strategy and you know, how do we apply this data to our shows?
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Can you just like quickly recap some of the key takeaways from that study?
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There were four that you and Tom from Over It Sounds Profitable found.
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Yeah, the first one is that you you absolutely now need to be findable on YouTube.
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YouTube is YouTube's here, guys, and it's not going away anytime soon.
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So you absolutely need to be findable there.
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The second one is that you need to lead with earned attention, and that's mostly social.
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Also, newsletters, Substack, like it's not necessarily on the podcast apps anymore.
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It's not necessarily through uh podcast advertising.
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It's very much a social play.
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You really need to think about how your audience finds your show through social.
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Uh, the third one is that you want to match your channels to your audience.
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So really understand who your audience is, where exactly they live online.
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And then finally, treat your discoverability as a 12-month discipline.
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This needs to be an always-on activity as a podcaster now, that not a two-week sort of launch event.
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We really need to be thinking and always in the mode of discoverability.
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I want to dig in right there with you because when you say a 12-month discipline, I love the long-term thinking about this, which then sets us up mentally for, okay, this really is something that I have to not only commit to, but really be intentional with.
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During those 12 months, do you have a typical recommendation for how often you should be reviewing your metrics or specific data points to see, okay, are the efforts I'm making toward discovery actually working?
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As a podcast agency, we really do like a big, big, big deep dive with our clients once a month with their podcast.
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However, I would do a check-in on, you know, just sort of the basic numbers once a week, and then maybe do a little bit more of a deeper dive every couple of weeks just to get a good understanding of where things are going and just really be cognizant of some of the some of the big movements that you're seeing, whether they're, you know, whether things are going up and down.
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Treat these all as little pieces of evidence.
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I wouldn't freak out over every little thing, but um, you know, kind of look at it as as if you're a scientist you're a scientist and you're you're trying different things, and all this is just little pieces of evidence that ultimately uh you know uh lands to what you need to be doing next.
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Like you said, don't just like get fixated on any one little thing.
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You know, it's funny, it reminds me of my eight-year-old.
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It's like, you'll just get fixated on something.
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And it's like, you know how like kids are into these squishy things, like the nidos and like these little squishy dumplings.
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I'm like, Where is this craze coming from?
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I don't understand it.
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And what's going on?
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Yes, who is profitable from this kids are shy?
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Especially the dumpling ones, like the big, like, you know, Chinese dumplings that are just like, what?
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I know, it blows my mind.
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So he's playing yesterday with his cousins, and he just got a brand new, like squishy nido that he was with his one of his cousins, and they they decided to make a quote unquote even trade for one of her dumplings.
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And so he questioned that decision afterwards, though, because he had received this nido as a gift, and it was a gift from me and my husband.
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And he was like, Did I make a bad decision?
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He didn't say it in those words, but he was just like, you know, are you upset with me?
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Like so, and he continued to ask this question how no matter how many times we reassured him, like, you know what, honey, it was your decision to make.
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Once a gift is yours, you could do with it what you want.
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Like, I can't be upset with you for that, you know.
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And he was just so worried about it, it was precious.
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But yet we do the same thing as podcasters.
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It's like the downloads, like, but but the downloads, you know, we just get so hyper-fixated on this one thing.
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Anyway, thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
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It's like we cannot just look at the one little piece of information and we got to look at the whole and recognize it's always gonna be changing.
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And you also can't just read one article and just like assume that, and as we're saying this, you know, we're we're coming from real data, but there's a lot of uh podcast influencers out there that are gonna throw a whole bunch of you know tick tips and tricks out there.
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And I'm not saying that they're all wrong, but you do you need to start looking for patterns versus just taking every little thing uh as the as gospel.
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Um and also think long term, you know, think think think as if you're uh you know you're an investor.
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Uh, you know, an investor doesn't want to make a trade based on how the you know how the market does one day.
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They look long term at how the market does over the course of three months, six months, twelve months, and obviously, you know, make some changes if you're starting to notice patterns, but don't freak out.
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Yeah.
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Also, at the end of the day, it's just podcasting.
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We're not saving lives.
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You know, lives are not being spent on the it's just podcasting.
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You know, I used to have an autoresponder set up on my email that said something along the lines of, you know, if you are happening to be having the first ever podcasting emergency, then please know we'll be in touch within the next two to three business days or something to that effect where it was like, you know, okay, you know, we're not here like on the operating table trying to like save lives, you know, it's much respect for the people who do, but it's like at the end of the day, you're right, it is just a podcast.
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And this, Roger, is where I really was just so I I loved hearing your perspective on, okay, now that we've got this data, what does this mean in terms of strategy?
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And when you presented this, you really just boiled it down into five strategic shifts that podcasters could make in light of this data based on how people are finding podcasts.
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So I want to dig deep into each one, but could you give us an overview of what those five things are first?
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Yeah, the first thing is you want to start building a discovery system.
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Um, and we'll get into the details of that in a second.
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The second one is that you want to be building YouTube first because it's absolutely here to stay.
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Uh, the third one is that you you kind of want to think about production budget versus distribution budget or marketing budget.
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Uh, you want to design the podcast so people want to share it or make it easy, you know, reduce the friction for them sharing it.
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And finally, you want to measure, we want to measure business outcomes, not just downloads.
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So, and also as any entrepreneur or as any podcaster out there, uh, you have your own metrics that are going to be important to you.
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They might not necessarily be downloads, though.
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Well, I think on that last point, it's safe to say that even if you don't have a business behind your podcast, most people are still looking to turn their podcast into a business in some way through some sort of revenue, some sort of monetization.
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So, like that one's applicable to everybody.
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Okay, so let's start with the first one: discovery systems.
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What do you mean by discovery system?
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And how does that change how we look at our podcasts?
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Yeah, you really want to think about your podcasts, not in isolated episodes.
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You really want to build a system around each one.
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So, what do I mean by that?
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So, a system would include, of course, the full episode itself, but also searchable packaging, uh, short clips, distribution.
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And I should mention short clips have never been easier to do because of AI.
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Guest distribution, you want to have a good package to go out to your guests so that they can share it to their audience.
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Think about an email to your audience.
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Uh, community sharing, you know, how can you make it as easy as possible for your community uh around your show to be sharing?
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And if you have some dollars, paid amplification and finally measurement.
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You want to really be looking at the data and you want to think about how the data is impacting your entire discovery system.
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At the end of the day, every episode should create what I would call several doors into the show.
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And just kind of going back to the data, you know, half of podcast listeners had looked for a new show within the previous month, and 45% had started one within the past three months.
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So the audience is always shopping for shows.
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Um, I I know that I, with you know, when I go for my morning walk, I'm always shopping for shows.
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So your discovery system should always be something that's open.
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It's something that is always on and it's something that is always available, and you want to always be thinking about it.
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I like how you close the loop with the data, though, on this, because so much of what we hear is just go out there and have the system and spray and pray, you know, like post it everywhere, like have the clips, have the shorts, have the YouTube, have the subset, right?
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And it just goes on and on and on.
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And then of course we wind up burnt out and exhausted and what questioning why, you know, did we start this podcast in the first place?
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But closing the loop with that data answers that question of where are my efforts and my time best spent?
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And that can help, you know, it's an iteration process to be sure, but it can help to close that loop not only in our minds, but also on our calendars so that we know that we're spending the time in the right place in order to grow the show.
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Yeah, and and measurement sounds like a scary word, especially if you're new to the podcasting space, but it could be as simple as like, you know, trackable links.
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So if you have different channels that your show is living in, and sorry, when I say channels, I mean like, you know, if your podcast lives on X or if your podcast you're sharing shorts on Instagram, create separate links for each of those channels.
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So then you can measure, like, well, you know, where am I getting most of my audience from?
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Really, really smart.
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How do you recommend creating those links?
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I mean, you use UTM tracking, or is there a simpler way you found to do it?
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Yeah, you can use UTM tracking.
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We use it through our host platform, which is co-host.
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Um, but there's a there's a number of different tracking platforms out there.
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And actually check in with your hosting platform as well, whether they have links available, um, because often they uh they do.
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Okay, so build for YouTube first.
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This one might make some people cringe, Roger.
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I know.
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I mean, when I say build for YouTube first, it it's it's kind of the reality now.
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I mean, when I say that, it it doesn't mean abandoning audio, though.
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That's the big you know message that I want to take away here.
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The reality though is through the research that we did, most people still expect podcasts to be audio only or or primary audio.
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When they think of podcasts, they do think audio.
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But the discoverability of your show increasingly happens through video.
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And when I say video, that was important that it's happening not just through YouTube, it's also happening through video channels like Instagram or like YouTube Shorts or like you know, through through um through X or TikTok.
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So I think the smart move for podcasters right now is to preserve the intimacy and convenience of audio.
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That's always gonna be the that's always gonna be there.
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But we also need to be designing the show packaging and recording for YouTube as well.
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So before you record, I want you all to think to yourself is this a searchable topic?
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Is the title of this episode, does it have a promise that we are able to deliver through through the content?
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Is our thumbnail gonna stand out?
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When you're thinking about the show itself, is there an opening hook?
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Something that's really gonna get people interested within the first 30 seconds.
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And then kind of you kind of want like this is this is a hard one that I'm I'm kind of I'll be honest, I'm kind of having to grapple myself.
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Is I do I do like to have a plan going into every episode when I record, and I do want there to be, I want it to be as organic as possible.
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However, as podcasters, we do need to kind of be thinking about like pre-engineering the moments in the podcast interview, if we're doing an interview, that can then easily become clips.
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So when I say that, I mean leaving some space in between the questions and answers and and and the next questions and answers that you're having with your uh with your uh uh your guests.
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But also like thinking about like what's a good what's a great question that's just automatically gonna have a really smart, honest answer.
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You know, thinking about like how how can I get the most out of this episode so that it's gonna be super impactful and something that I'm gonna capture a lot of attention with if I share some clips.
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That is so smart and total transparency.
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It's something I struggle with because I get so excited about whatever the topic is, whatever it is, you know, that and then I'm not thinking about then the next layer, which is okay, now how are we distributing this beyond the RSS feed?
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And then if that then translates into shorts, let's say an Instagram reel, a YouTube short, so forth, how are we then capturing just like the essence?
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I feel like Stephen Barlett does a great job of this.
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It's a little clickbaity, but it's amazing.
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And it's just he's super.
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I mean, if you want to study someone who does this well, study Steven.
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And he does this for his podcast, and you know that there's thought that's gone into it.
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And that's the most important thing.
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It's a discipline.
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He does also have a team of five or six people.
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So let's um, you know, let's respect the fact that a lot of the, you know, a lot of you folks are on your own.
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But I do think it's can also be as simple as just going into each episode mindful of the fact that uh, you know, you're gonna want to kind of make sure that you got some really great moments.
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And it's also the fun part is that it's also gonna make your podcast better because you're literally, I don't want to say manufacturing moments, but you're like creating a more impactful show and then you know clipping so that uh those clips become the front door of your uh of your great episode that you've now made.
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Yeah.
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It excites me to think about.
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It's just it it takes practice.
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And so this is something if you're brand new to podcasting, maybe don't think about this yet.
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Let's focus on mastering the craft, let's focus on getting your message down, all of those things, right?
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But if you're more advanced, if you're looking to optimize, there are different, there's always facets of things that we could be optimizing.
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This is definitely one of those things.
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It's I think one of the fun, like one of the fun things is that as we evolve as podcasters, we are all wearing a bunch of really awesome hats.
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So, yes, we wear the production hat.
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We're now having to like wear the marketing hat more and more.
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But it also like we we are we become journalists in a lot of ways.
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Like we really need to think about like, okay, I'm gonna be interviewing this, you know, this expert in uh uh you know, XYZ uh new book that they've launched on, maybe grief, for example.
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How am I gonna get the best information out of this guest so that my audience now gets it?
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And so it's it's you're you know, really having to like engineer questions and go into that interview with like the smartest question that you just automatically are gonna get a great answer.
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So, like it's not just about, you know, this book on grief.
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It's like, what was the moment where you're like, oh, this is what I'm meant to be doing?
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And and like you're sort of managing manufacturing these like non-wooden question, you know, non-wooden responses.
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You're instead manufacturing these like incredible moments.
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Yes.
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Well, I do want to get into okay, point number, point number three, point number four.
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I think we could roll these into one because you know, like you mentioned, you know, there's a distribution budget that we need to have for podcasts.
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And it's such a simple shift, but yet it's not maybe accessible for everyone.
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So then that kind of just begs the question of well, what else do we do?
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Which is okay, design your show for sharing.
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So can you unpack these two for us?
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Yeah, I mean, when we work with our clients, we usually like to do a sort of one-to-one budget with them, meaning, you know, 50% of their budget goes into uh the production of the show, and then 50% of their budget goes into the marketing of the show, you know, through through things like paid advertising.
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I'm not saying that everybody who's listening right now or watching right now has dollars to spend marketing the show, but let's say that you do, you know, you really want to think about how best to spend that.
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And I think the automatic place to look is podcast to podcast advertising.
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Our research showed that only 4% of new listeners found their favorite shows through podcast advertising.
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But what I want to encourage you to also look at is, you know, if you're if you're a business podcast, you really want to think about like where are the other places that your audience goes about their day that it would make sense to include your podcast.
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So is it like an industry newsletter or is it something physical, like you know, a coffee shop or a bank location where they would be willing to put up a little placard, you know, for for for you know, exchange for dollars to promote your podcast, you know, quick QR code sort of thing.
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:06.720
Now, that being said, you also want to design your podcast to be shared.
00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:08.319
And then sharing is free, right?
00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:18.640
Sharing is where you create a show that people are so excited that they want to share it with other people, but they don't just want to share the show for sharing's sake.
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:26.160
They actually want to build like what what do we call it, social currency through the knowledge that you're sharing in your show.
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.240
You kind of want to build your episodes around you know, really key moments.
00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:43.680
Explain something very, very clearly, articulate something you know, people have felt but couldn't really express, offer a useful tool, uh, present uh an opinion worth discussing.
00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:48.160
You know, I think the best share prompt is not, you know, sort of share this episode.
00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:56.640
It's it's creating a moment that makes people think, I know exactly who needs to hear this, or I know exactly who needs this tip or trick or you know, piece of education.
00:17:56.960 --> 00:17:58.319
And then I'm gonna share it with them.
00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:03.599
They're not just gonna share for share sake, they're gonna share because it made them feel useful.
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:10.160
People want to feel useful, people want to feel understood, or you know, they want to share something that's worth discussing.
00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:25.440
Again, this goes back to the social currency side of it, because at the end of the day, in the data, 64% of listeners receive podcast recommendations from friends, and 72% say that they are likely to actually act on the recommendation that was given them.
00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:31.200
So, out of all the things we talked about, word of mouth may be the most valuable channel today.
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:34.160
And and podcasters really need to design for that.
00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:40.240
And the thing about word of mouth is we've heard it shouted from the rooftops for years word of mouth, word of mouth, word of mouth.
00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:44.559
But what's great about it is that it's timeless.
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:49.680
And it's one of those principles that we don't see going anywhere.
00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:53.440
And the data continues to affirm that and confirm that.
00:18:53.599 --> 00:19:11.119
If we could all, as podcast hosts, not only, you know, master the skills behind the mic, hosting, interviewing, and so forth, but master exactly what you're saying, you know, where we engineer these moments that are shareable, and when we can develop that skill, who that is really gonna take your podcast to the place, any place you want it to go.
00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:16.640
Yeah, in general, I mean, we're all needing to become moment engineers.
00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:20.160
I think I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna like copyright that moment engineers.
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:20.960
Moment engineers.
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:23.200
Um, so check out my book, Moment Engineering.
00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:24.799
I don't I don't have that book.
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:26.720
Maybe it's a podcast.
00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:28.400
Maybe maybe that's a podcast idea.
00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:29.440
But I think it's important.
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:39.519
And and I mean, let's be honest, you know, as the world becomes more uh just inundated with content and that and that's coming from a podcast uh agency owner.
00:19:39.599 --> 00:20:00.400
Um, and as we become more sort of struggling for time, I think those key moments, those really impassioned, awesome, you know, chalk full of value moments are what's gonna make us, you know, and I say the royal us, um, more successful as podcasters and just as um you know entrepreneurs as well.
00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:01.200
Yeah.
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:01.759
All right.
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:03.279
Now I don't want to leave this last one off.
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:07.119
We've touched on it a little bit, but measuring business outcomes, not downloads.
00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:10.079
Any additional final thoughts that you have that you want to add to that?
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:10.559
Yeah.
00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:22.079
I mean, I think downloads tell you really that the file moved from you know you to them, but it doesn't really tell you anything about, you know, if we're talking to entrepreneurs out there, how that impacted your business.
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:39.839
If I was talking on entrepreneurs right now, I would talk about like more important KPIs like uh qualified inquiries, email subscribers, you know, sales conversations that came from the podcast, listener attributed customers, conversion rates and influenced revenue.
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:43.680
You know, these are all things that you can be tracking through a number of different unique ways.
00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:52.960
Um a lot of it is manual, to be honest, but it's gonna be a lot more impactful for your business to understand sort of how the podcast is actually impacting the show.
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:56.640
You know, and retention and completion tell you whether the content worked.
00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:01.839
Um, you know, but then business metrics are gonna tell you whether the podcast worked itself.
00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:02.319
Yeah.
00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:10.640
And just like the data closes the loop when we're talking about social media and where you're distributing your podcast beyond the RSS feed, it helps you see what's working, what's not.
00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:22.160
I can't tell you every time that a client sees revenue attributed back to their podcast or sees an actual growth curve where they're like, you know what, I'm just sitting here looking at the downloads because that's what I can see in my dashboard.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:34.240
When I zoom out and take into account some of these other metrics that are actually important and helping us understand what actions listeners are taking and so forth, just as you're describing, it's like their face lights up and they're like, oh my gosh, my podcast is working.
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:45.680
Like exactly, you know, and then they don't care that they only have a handful of downloads an episode, whether it be a few hundred or a few thousand, you know, it's like they're they're suddenly realizing that yes, the show is doing what they set out for it to do.
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:48.319
And that is what all of all of these strategies are driving towards.
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:55.599
So a top like a top 100 podcast is massively important because you do need that reach, and that is uh that is an incredible metric.
00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:59.039
And then you need to ask yourself sort of like, what next?
00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:01.440
What is that gonna turn into from a business perspective?
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:04.799
And I know you've you talked to your you know you talked to your clients about that.
00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:11.279
I and I should say that you know, we're talking about businesses right now, but even if you're a hobby podcaster, like what is the podcast meant to do?
00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:22.400
What are the results that you're looking for that is either gonna fulfill you or is perhaps gonna drive community or is gonna perhaps educate people that you just really feel like educating people on?
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:23.920
We were talking about those squishies.
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:35.599
Like, if you really want to be the master of like squishies and you want to get to the bottom of like what is inside those squishies, and that's what your podcast is about, well, then you're gonna want to talk to your audience about did you actually learn about what I taught you?
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:37.119
And is this working?
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:39.839
Like, are you guys feeling now like the answer is solved?
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:41.680
Because this is really what my podcast, anyways.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:45.200
I'm rambling on now, but I just really want to know what's inside the squishies.
00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:46.400
Yeah, me too.
00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:47.839
Can someone feel tell us?
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:49.680
I'm like, I can't go cut one open.
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:51.519
My son would never ever forgive me.
00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:54.240
But if someone knows, reach out, drop a comment.
00:22:55.359 --> 00:23:07.680
Talking about moments, that feels like a good moment clip that would probably go quite well on social if you were to like steal your son's squishy and then cut it open just for the audience and then maybe buy him a few more and just to see, buy another one exactly like that.
00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:09.920
I know, but the problem, Roger, is like they're mysteries, right?
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:10.960
So you don't know which one you're gonna get.
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:13.200
So I have to buy 50 to get the to replace it.
00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:16.000
It's also ridiculously expensive.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:17.200
Yes.
00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:22.799
I got a text from my sister-in-law earlier just today, and she said, Oh, they had one of these Vito drops at this toy store.
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:25.359
There's three per person per day in case you want to go buy any.
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:28.160
And I got one for your son, and I was like, Oh, that is so thoughtful of you.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:31.920
Like, please let me know if you'd like me to pay you back because you know, I know that these are not cheap.
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:36.160
They just think, you know, and then they have these little collections of these things going on, but man.
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:39.440
Roger, it's been such a joy to talk to you today.
00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:41.519
Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us.
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:43.119
Thank you, and thanks to everyone up there.
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:55.119
And while I won't be cutting up squishies in the next episode, I am gonna take you behind the scenes of what I have been working on building at Pod Launch, along with a few exciting things, at least some things that I am very excited about building for you as a listener of this show.
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:56.400
So don't go anywhere.
00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:01.039
I've got all that coming up next to help you make your podcast binge worthy.
00:00:02.399 --> 00:00:08.800
If you caught the episode right before this one, we just unpacked some really fascinating data that shows us how people are finding podcasts today.
00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:15.679
And this matters for you and for your podcast because if you want to help more listeners find your show, well, we need to know how listeners are finding shows to begin with.
00:00:15.839 --> 00:00:29.679
And that is why Roger Narran from Jar Podcast Solutions is back in the studio with us to help you make sense of what this data means and what these findings reveal for your show so that you can build a better strategy to get discovered by listeners who need what you have to offer.
00:00:32.960 --> 00:00:36.799
Welcome to Insider Secrets to a Top 100 podcast.
00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:39.039
I'm your host, Courtney Elmer.
00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:42.240
Let's make your podcast binge-worthy.
00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:46.560
Roger, welcome back.
00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:48.079
Hey Courtney, thank you so much.
00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:49.679
And what a fun first episode.
00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:58.320
And if you're if you're listening or watching and you didn't catch the first episode, we definitely have an episode that we got to beat with this one because the last one was amazing.
00:00:58.560 --> 00:00:58.880
I agree.
00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:00.320
We're going to link to it below in the show notes.
00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:02.560
It's easy for you to click, easy for you to find.
00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:08.079
And you know what I love about these two-part episodes that we do with our guests, Roger, is that it allows us to go deeper.
00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:12.879
And yes, we could have one 60-minute conversation and unpacking all of this in depth.
00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:16.079
But let's be honest, our attention spans are a lot shorter than they ever used to be.
00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:24.719
And for me, this is just a really beautiful opportunity, not only for our listeners to get more of your wisdom, they get more FaceTime and ear time with you.
00:01:24.879 --> 00:01:28.000
It's also a great opportunity for you to be able to unpack your knowledge.
00:01:28.079 --> 00:01:31.599
Then, you know, we wouldn't be able to go as deep into a 20, 30-minute episode.
00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:34.480
So this is a gift for me to be here with you unpacking this.
00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:44.000
And if you didn't catch the previous episode, we were talking about the latest data on how listeners are finding podcasts so that you know how then to go out and engineer your show so you can help more people find it.
00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:47.519
And this is where the strategy comes into play, which I love.
00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:52.079
So, Roger, before we dive into the strategy and you know, how do we apply this data to our shows?
00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:55.519
Can you just like quickly recap some of the key takeaways from that study?
00:01:55.599 --> 00:01:58.560
There were four that you and Tom from Over It Sounds Profitable found.
00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:03.040
Yeah, the first one is that you you absolutely now need to be findable on YouTube.
00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:06.959
YouTube is YouTube's here, guys, and it's not going away anytime soon.
00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:08.960
So you absolutely need to be findable there.
00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:13.520
The second one is that you need to lead with earned attention, and that's mostly social.
00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:19.120
Also, newsletters, Substack, like it's not necessarily on the podcast apps anymore.
00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:22.800
It's not necessarily through uh podcast advertising.
00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:24.639
It's very much a social play.
00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:27.759
You really need to think about how your audience finds your show through social.
00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:31.360
Uh, the third one is that you want to match your channels to your audience.
00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:35.280
So really understand who your audience is, where exactly they live online.
00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:41.599
And then finally, treat your discoverability as a 12-month discipline.
00:02:41.759 --> 00:02:47.039
This needs to be an always-on activity as a podcaster now, that not a two-week sort of launch event.
00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:50.800
We really need to be thinking and always in the mode of discoverability.
00:02:51.039 --> 00:03:06.000
I want to dig in right there with you because when you say a 12-month discipline, I love the long-term thinking about this, which then sets us up mentally for, okay, this really is something that I have to not only commit to, but really be intentional with.
00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:17.680
During those 12 months, do you have a typical recommendation for how often you should be reviewing your metrics or specific data points to see, okay, are the efforts I'm making toward discovery actually working?
00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:25.039
As a podcast agency, we really do like a big, big, big deep dive with our clients once a month with their podcast.
00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:42.159
However, I would do a check-in on, you know, just sort of the basic numbers once a week, and then maybe do a little bit more of a deeper dive every couple of weeks just to get a good understanding of where things are going and just really be cognizant of some of the some of the big movements that you're seeing, whether they're, you know, whether things are going up and down.
00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:45.039
Treat these all as little pieces of evidence.
00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:59.599
I wouldn't freak out over every little thing, but um, you know, kind of look at it as as if you're a scientist you're a scientist and you're you're trying different things, and all this is just little pieces of evidence that ultimately uh you know uh lands to what you need to be doing next.
00:03:59.919 --> 00:04:02.719
Like you said, don't just like get fixated on any one little thing.
00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:04.560
You know, it's funny, it reminds me of my eight-year-old.
00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:05.919
It's like, you'll just get fixated on something.
00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:10.719
And it's like, you know how like kids are into these squishy things, like the nidos and like these little squishy dumplings.
00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:12.479
I'm like, Where is this craze coming from?
00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:13.120
I don't understand it.
00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:15.039
And what's going on?
00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:17.120
Yes, who is profitable from this kids are shy?
00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:21.759
Especially the dumpling ones, like the big, like, you know, Chinese dumplings that are just like, what?
00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:24.399
I know, it blows my mind.
00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:35.439
So he's playing yesterday with his cousins, and he just got a brand new, like squishy nido that he was with his one of his cousins, and they they decided to make a quote unquote even trade for one of her dumplings.
00:04:35.519 --> 00:04:42.399
And so he questioned that decision afterwards, though, because he had received this nido as a gift, and it was a gift from me and my husband.
00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:44.399
And he was like, Did I make a bad decision?
00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:47.439
He didn't say it in those words, but he was just like, you know, are you upset with me?
00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:54.720
Like so, and he continued to ask this question how no matter how many times we reassured him, like, you know what, honey, it was your decision to make.
00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:56.879
Once a gift is yours, you could do with it what you want.
00:04:56.959 --> 00:04:58.639
Like, I can't be upset with you for that, you know.
00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:00.480
And he was just so worried about it, it was precious.
00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:02.319
But yet we do the same thing as podcasters.
00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:07.439
It's like the downloads, like, but but the downloads, you know, we just get so hyper-fixated on this one thing.
00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:09.360
Anyway, thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:15.199
It's like we cannot just look at the one little piece of information and we got to look at the whole and recognize it's always gonna be changing.
00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:28.639
And you also can't just read one article and just like assume that, and as we're saying this, you know, we're we're coming from real data, but there's a lot of uh podcast influencers out there that are gonna throw a whole bunch of you know tick tips and tricks out there.
00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:37.199
And I'm not saying that they're all wrong, but you do you need to start looking for patterns versus just taking every little thing uh as the as gospel.
00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:43.680
Um and also think long term, you know, think think think as if you're uh you know you're an investor.
00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:49.199
Uh, you know, an investor doesn't want to make a trade based on how the you know how the market does one day.
00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:58.079
They look long term at how the market does over the course of three months, six months, twelve months, and obviously, you know, make some changes if you're starting to notice patterns, but don't freak out.
00:05:58.319 --> 00:05:58.639
Yeah.
00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:02.079
Also, at the end of the day, it's just podcasting.
00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:03.600
We're not saving lives.
00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:07.279
You know, lives are not being spent on the it's just podcasting.
00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:30.720
You know, I used to have an autoresponder set up on my email that said something along the lines of, you know, if you are happening to be having the first ever podcasting emergency, then please know we'll be in touch within the next two to three business days or something to that effect where it was like, you know, okay, you know, we're not here like on the operating table trying to like save lives, you know, it's much respect for the people who do, but it's like at the end of the day, you're right, it is just a podcast.
00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:40.639
And this, Roger, is where I really was just so I I loved hearing your perspective on, okay, now that we've got this data, what does this mean in terms of strategy?
00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:48.720
And when you presented this, you really just boiled it down into five strategic shifts that podcasters could make in light of this data based on how people are finding podcasts.
00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:53.120
So I want to dig deep into each one, but could you give us an overview of what those five things are first?
00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:57.360
Yeah, the first thing is you want to start building a discovery system.
00:06:57.439 --> 00:06:59.759
Um, and we'll get into the details of that in a second.
00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:04.240
The second one is that you want to be building YouTube first because it's absolutely here to stay.
00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:11.120
Uh, the third one is that you you kind of want to think about production budget versus distribution budget or marketing budget.
00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:17.839
Uh, you want to design the podcast so people want to share it or make it easy, you know, reduce the friction for them sharing it.
00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:21.920
And finally, you want to measure, we want to measure business outcomes, not just downloads.
00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:28.720
So, and also as any entrepreneur or as any podcaster out there, uh, you have your own metrics that are going to be important to you.
00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:30.560
They might not necessarily be downloads, though.
00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:40.639
Well, I think on that last point, it's safe to say that even if you don't have a business behind your podcast, most people are still looking to turn their podcast into a business in some way through some sort of revenue, some sort of monetization.
00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:42.560
So, like that one's applicable to everybody.
00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:45.199
Okay, so let's start with the first one: discovery systems.
00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:47.040
What do you mean by discovery system?
00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:49.519
And how does that change how we look at our podcasts?
00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:55.759
Yeah, you really want to think about your podcasts, not in isolated episodes.
00:07:55.920 --> 00:07:58.319
You really want to build a system around each one.
00:07:58.480 --> 00:07:59.680
So, what do I mean by that?
00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:08.480
So, a system would include, of course, the full episode itself, but also searchable packaging, uh, short clips, distribution.
00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:12.160
And I should mention short clips have never been easier to do because of AI.
00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:17.360
Guest distribution, you want to have a good package to go out to your guests so that they can share it to their audience.
00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:19.759
Think about an email to your audience.
00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:26.000
Uh, community sharing, you know, how can you make it as easy as possible for your community uh around your show to be sharing?
00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:30.720
And if you have some dollars, paid amplification and finally measurement.
00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:37.360
You want to really be looking at the data and you want to think about how the data is impacting your entire discovery system.
00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:44.080
At the end of the day, every episode should create what I would call several doors into the show.
00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:53.120
And just kind of going back to the data, you know, half of podcast listeners had looked for a new show within the previous month, and 45% had started one within the past three months.
00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:56.159
So the audience is always shopping for shows.
00:08:56.240 --> 00:09:00.480
Um, I I know that I, with you know, when I go for my morning walk, I'm always shopping for shows.
00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:03.840
So your discovery system should always be something that's open.
00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:08.879
It's something that is always on and it's something that is always available, and you want to always be thinking about it.
00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:20.960
I like how you close the loop with the data, though, on this, because so much of what we hear is just go out there and have the system and spray and pray, you know, like post it everywhere, like have the clips, have the shorts, have the YouTube, have the subset, right?
00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:22.000
And it just goes on and on and on.
00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:27.120
And then of course we wind up burnt out and exhausted and what questioning why, you know, did we start this podcast in the first place?
00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:33.360
But closing the loop with that data answers that question of where are my efforts and my time best spent?
00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:44.320
And that can help, you know, it's an iteration process to be sure, but it can help to close that loop not only in our minds, but also on our calendars so that we know that we're spending the time in the right place in order to grow the show.
00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:52.559
Yeah, and and measurement sounds like a scary word, especially if you're new to the podcasting space, but it could be as simple as like, you know, trackable links.
00:09:52.720 --> 00:10:04.960
So if you have different channels that your show is living in, and sorry, when I say channels, I mean like, you know, if your podcast lives on X or if your podcast you're sharing shorts on Instagram, create separate links for each of those channels.
00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:08.399
So then you can measure, like, well, you know, where am I getting most of my audience from?
00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:09.440
Really, really smart.
00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:10.879
How do you recommend creating those links?
00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:14.000
I mean, you use UTM tracking, or is there a simpler way you found to do it?
00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:15.840
Yeah, you can use UTM tracking.
00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:18.480
We use it through our host platform, which is co-host.
00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:21.519
Um, but there's a there's a number of different tracking platforms out there.
00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:28.399
And actually check in with your hosting platform as well, whether they have links available, um, because often they uh they do.
00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:30.000
Okay, so build for YouTube first.
00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:32.639
This one might make some people cringe, Roger.
00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:33.440
I know.
00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:37.840
I mean, when I say build for YouTube first, it it's it's kind of the reality now.
00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:41.519
I mean, when I say that, it it doesn't mean abandoning audio, though.
00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:44.000
That's the big you know message that I want to take away here.
00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:51.679
The reality though is through the research that we did, most people still expect podcasts to be audio only or or primary audio.
00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:54.320
When they think of podcasts, they do think audio.
00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:58.960
But the discoverability of your show increasingly happens through video.
00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:10.639
And when I say video, that was important that it's happening not just through YouTube, it's also happening through video channels like Instagram or like YouTube Shorts or like you know, through through um through X or TikTok.
00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:18.080
So I think the smart move for podcasters right now is to preserve the intimacy and convenience of audio.
00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:20.960
That's always gonna be the that's always gonna be there.
00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:27.600
But we also need to be designing the show packaging and recording for YouTube as well.
00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:33.679
So before you record, I want you all to think to yourself is this a searchable topic?
00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:40.159
Is the title of this episode, does it have a promise that we are able to deliver through through the content?
00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:42.240
Is our thumbnail gonna stand out?
00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:45.039
When you're thinking about the show itself, is there an opening hook?
00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:49.039
Something that's really gonna get people interested within the first 30 seconds.
00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:55.679
And then kind of you kind of want like this is this is a hard one that I'm I'm kind of I'll be honest, I'm kind of having to grapple myself.
00:11:55.840 --> 00:12:03.440
Is I do I do like to have a plan going into every episode when I record, and I do want there to be, I want it to be as organic as possible.
00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:18.240
However, as podcasters, we do need to kind of be thinking about like pre-engineering the moments in the podcast interview, if we're doing an interview, that can then easily become clips.
00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:29.919
So when I say that, I mean leaving some space in between the questions and answers and and and the next questions and answers that you're having with your uh with your uh uh your guests.
00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:37.919
But also like thinking about like what's a good what's a great question that's just automatically gonna have a really smart, honest answer.
00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:48.159
You know, thinking about like how how can I get the most out of this episode so that it's gonna be super impactful and something that I'm gonna capture a lot of attention with if I share some clips.
00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:50.960
That is so smart and total transparency.
00:12:51.039 --> 00:13:02.159
It's something I struggle with because I get so excited about whatever the topic is, whatever it is, you know, that and then I'm not thinking about then the next layer, which is okay, now how are we distributing this beyond the RSS feed?
00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:10.480
And then if that then translates into shorts, let's say an Instagram reel, a YouTube short, so forth, how are we then capturing just like the essence?
00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:12.720
I feel like Stephen Barlett does a great job of this.
00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:15.120
It's a little clickbaity, but it's amazing.
00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:16.320
And it's just he's super.
00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:19.039
I mean, if you want to study someone who does this well, study Steven.
00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:24.080
And he does this for his podcast, and you know that there's thought that's gone into it.
00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:25.759
And that's the most important thing.
00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:26.559
It's a discipline.
00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:28.960
He does also have a team of five or six people.
00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:34.960
So let's um, you know, let's respect the fact that a lot of the, you know, a lot of you folks are on your own.
00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:47.919
But I do think it's can also be as simple as just going into each episode mindful of the fact that uh, you know, you're gonna want to kind of make sure that you got some really great moments.
00:13:48.240 --> 00:14:07.440
And it's also the fun part is that it's also gonna make your podcast better because you're literally, I don't want to say manufacturing moments, but you're like creating a more impactful show and then you know clipping so that uh those clips become the front door of your uh of your great episode that you've now made.
00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:08.000
Yeah.
00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:09.679
It excites me to think about.
00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:11.759
It's just it it takes practice.
00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:15.120
And so this is something if you're brand new to podcasting, maybe don't think about this yet.
00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:19.919
Let's focus on mastering the craft, let's focus on getting your message down, all of those things, right?
00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.960
But if you're more advanced, if you're looking to optimize, there are different, there's always facets of things that we could be optimizing.
00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:26.240
This is definitely one of those things.
00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:36.960
It's I think one of the fun, like one of the fun things is that as we evolve as podcasters, we are all wearing a bunch of really awesome hats.
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:40.000
So, yes, we wear the production hat.
00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:43.840
We're now having to like wear the marketing hat more and more.
00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:47.679
But it also like we we are we become journalists in a lot of ways.
00:14:47.840 --> 00:15:00.000
Like we really need to think about like, okay, I'm gonna be interviewing this, you know, this expert in uh uh you know, XYZ uh new book that they've launched on, maybe grief, for example.
00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:05.840
How am I gonna get the best information out of this guest so that my audience now gets it?
00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:17.279
And so it's it's you're you know, really having to like engineer questions and go into that interview with like the smartest question that you just automatically are gonna get a great answer.
00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:20.639
So, like it's not just about, you know, this book on grief.
00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:25.039
It's like, what was the moment where you're like, oh, this is what I'm meant to be doing?
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:31.519
And and like you're sort of managing manufacturing these like non-wooden question, you know, non-wooden responses.
00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:34.559
You're instead manufacturing these like incredible moments.
00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:35.039
Yes.
00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:38.879
Well, I do want to get into okay, point number, point number three, point number four.
00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:46.000
I think we could roll these into one because you know, like you mentioned, you know, there's a distribution budget that we need to have for podcasts.
00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:50.240
And it's such a simple shift, but yet it's not maybe accessible for everyone.
00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:53.200
So then that kind of just begs the question of well, what else do we do?
00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:54.960
Which is okay, design your show for sharing.
00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:56.720
So can you unpack these two for us?
00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:13.919
Yeah, I mean, when we work with our clients, we usually like to do a sort of one-to-one budget with them, meaning, you know, 50% of their budget goes into uh the production of the show, and then 50% of their budget goes into the marketing of the show, you know, through through things like paid advertising.
00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:23.440
I'm not saying that everybody who's listening right now or watching right now has dollars to spend marketing the show, but let's say that you do, you know, you really want to think about how best to spend that.
00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:28.000
And I think the automatic place to look is podcast to podcast advertising.
00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:34.000
Our research showed that only 4% of new listeners found their favorite shows through podcast advertising.
00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:47.919
But what I want to encourage you to also look at is, you know, if you're if you're a business podcast, you really want to think about like where are the other places that your audience goes about their day that it would make sense to include your podcast.
00:16:48.080 --> 00:17:03.039
So is it like an industry newsletter or is it something physical, like you know, a coffee shop or a bank location where they would be willing to put up a little placard, you know, for for for you know, exchange for dollars to promote your podcast, you know, quick QR code sort of thing.
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:06.720
Now, that being said, you also want to design your podcast to be shared.
00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:08.319
And then sharing is free, right?
00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:18.640
Sharing is where you create a show that people are so excited that they want to share it with other people, but they don't just want to share the show for sharing's sake.
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:26.160
They actually want to build like what what do we call it, social currency through the knowledge that you're sharing in your show.
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.240
You kind of want to build your episodes around you know, really key moments.
00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:43.680
Explain something very, very clearly, articulate something you know, people have felt but couldn't really express, offer a useful tool, uh, present uh an opinion worth discussing.
00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:48.160
You know, I think the best share prompt is not, you know, sort of share this episode.
00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:56.640
It's it's creating a moment that makes people think, I know exactly who needs to hear this, or I know exactly who needs this tip or trick or you know, piece of education.
00:17:56.960 --> 00:17:58.319
And then I'm gonna share it with them.
00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:03.599
They're not just gonna share for share sake, they're gonna share because it made them feel useful.
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:10.160
People want to feel useful, people want to feel understood, or you know, they want to share something that's worth discussing.
00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:25.440
Again, this goes back to the social currency side of it, because at the end of the day, in the data, 64% of listeners receive podcast recommendations from friends, and 72% say that they are likely to actually act on the recommendation that was given them.
00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:31.200
So, out of all the things we talked about, word of mouth may be the most valuable channel today.
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:34.160
And and podcasters really need to design for that.
00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:40.240
And the thing about word of mouth is we've heard it shouted from the rooftops for years word of mouth, word of mouth, word of mouth.
00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:44.559
But what's great about it is that it's timeless.
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:49.680
And it's one of those principles that we don't see going anywhere.
00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:53.440
And the data continues to affirm that and confirm that.
00:18:53.599 --> 00:19:11.119
If we could all, as podcast hosts, not only, you know, master the skills behind the mic, hosting, interviewing, and so forth, but master exactly what you're saying, you know, where we engineer these moments that are shareable, and when we can develop that skill, who that is really gonna take your podcast to the place, any place you want it to go.
00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:16.640
Yeah, in general, I mean, we're all needing to become moment engineers.
00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:20.160
I think I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna like copyright that moment engineers.
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:20.960
Moment engineers.
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:23.200
Um, so check out my book, Moment Engineering.
00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:24.799
I don't I don't have that book.
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:26.720
Maybe it's a podcast.
00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:28.400
Maybe maybe that's a podcast idea.
00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:29.440
But I think it's important.
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:39.519
And and I mean, let's be honest, you know, as the world becomes more uh just inundated with content and that and that's coming from a podcast uh agency owner.
00:19:39.599 --> 00:20:00.400
Um, and as we become more sort of struggling for time, I think those key moments, those really impassioned, awesome, you know, chalk full of value moments are what's gonna make us, you know, and I say the royal us, um, more successful as podcasters and just as um you know entrepreneurs as well.
00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:01.200
Yeah.
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:01.759
All right.
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:03.279
Now I don't want to leave this last one off.
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:07.119
We've touched on it a little bit, but measuring business outcomes, not downloads.
00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:10.079
Any additional final thoughts that you have that you want to add to that?
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:10.559
Yeah.
00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:22.079
I mean, I think downloads tell you really that the file moved from you know you to them, but it doesn't really tell you anything about, you know, if we're talking to entrepreneurs out there, how that impacted your business.
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:39.839
If I was talking on entrepreneurs right now, I would talk about like more important KPIs like uh qualified inquiries, email subscribers, you know, sales conversations that came from the podcast, listener attributed customers, conversion rates and influenced revenue.
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:43.680
You know, these are all things that you can be tracking through a number of different unique ways.
00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:52.960
Um a lot of it is manual, to be honest, but it's gonna be a lot more impactful for your business to understand sort of how the podcast is actually impacting the show.
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:56.640
You know, and retention and completion tell you whether the content worked.
00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:01.839
Um, you know, but then business metrics are gonna tell you whether the podcast worked itself.
00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:02.319
Yeah.
00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:10.640
And just like the data closes the loop when we're talking about social media and where you're distributing your podcast beyond the RSS feed, it helps you see what's working, what's not.
00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:22.160
I can't tell you every time that a client sees revenue attributed back to their podcast or sees an actual growth curve where they're like, you know what, I'm just sitting here looking at the downloads because that's what I can see in my dashboard.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:34.240
When I zoom out and take into account some of these other metrics that are actually important and helping us understand what actions listeners are taking and so forth, just as you're describing, it's like their face lights up and they're like, oh my gosh, my podcast is working.
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:45.680
Like exactly, you know, and then they don't care that they only have a handful of downloads an episode, whether it be a few hundred or a few thousand, you know, it's like they're they're suddenly realizing that yes, the show is doing what they set out for it to do.
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:48.319
And that is what all of all of these strategies are driving towards.
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:55.599
So a top like a top 100 podcast is massively important because you do need that reach, and that is uh that is an incredible metric.
00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:59.039
And then you need to ask yourself sort of like, what next?
00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:01.440
What is that gonna turn into from a business perspective?
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:04.799
And I know you've you talked to your you know you talked to your clients about that.
00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:11.279
I and I should say that you know, we're talking about businesses right now, but even if you're a hobby podcaster, like what is the podcast meant to do?
00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:22.400
What are the results that you're looking for that is either gonna fulfill you or is perhaps gonna drive community or is gonna perhaps educate people that you just really feel like educating people on?
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:23.920
We were talking about those squishies.
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:35.599
Like, if you really want to be the master of like squishies and you want to get to the bottom of like what is inside those squishies, and that's what your podcast is about, well, then you're gonna want to talk to your audience about did you actually learn about what I taught you?
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:37.119
And is this working?
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:39.839
Like, are you guys feeling now like the answer is solved?
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:41.680
Because this is really what my podcast, anyways.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:45.200
I'm rambling on now, but I just really want to know what's inside the squishies.
00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:46.400
Yeah, me too.
00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:47.839
Can someone feel tell us?
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:49.680
I'm like, I can't go cut one open.
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:51.519
My son would never ever forgive me.
00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:54.240
But if someone knows, reach out, drop a comment.
00:22:55.359 --> 00:23:07.680
Talking about moments, that feels like a good moment clip that would probably go quite well on social if you were to like steal your son's squishy and then cut it open just for the audience and then maybe buy him a few more and just to see, buy another one exactly like that.
00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:09.920
I know, but the problem, Roger, is like they're mysteries, right?
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:10.960
So you don't know which one you're gonna get.
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:13.200
So I have to buy 50 to get the to replace it.
00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:16.000
It's also ridiculously expensive.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:17.200
Yes.
00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:22.799
I got a text from my sister-in-law earlier just today, and she said, Oh, they had one of these Vito drops at this toy store.
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:25.359
There's three per person per day in case you want to go buy any.
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:28.160
And I got one for your son, and I was like, Oh, that is so thoughtful of you.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:31.920
Like, please let me know if you'd like me to pay you back because you know, I know that these are not cheap.
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:36.160
They just think, you know, and then they have these little collections of these things going on, but man.
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:39.440
Roger, it's been such a joy to talk to you today.
00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:41.519
Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us.
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:43.119
Thank you, and thanks to everyone up there.
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:55.119
And while I won't be cutting up squishies in the next episode, I am gonna take you behind the scenes of what I have been working on building at Pod Launch, along with a few exciting things, at least some things that I am very excited about building for you as a listener of this show.
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:56.400
So don't go anywhere.
00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:01.039
I've got all that coming up next to help you make your podcast binge worthy.
