Aoife O'Brien [00:00:02]:
Ali, you're so welcome to the happier at work podcast. I know we had a conversation about being on the podcast probably going back months ago now because prerecording of dating each other and what's been going on. There's been a lot that's been happening in both of our lives. So you're so welcome to the happier at work podcast. I'm really pleased to have you as my guest today. Do you want to let people know a little bit about your background and how you got into doing what you're doing?
Ali Dunn [00:00:28]:
Yes. I would love to. Thank you so much for having me. It really is an honor to be here. Yes. So my name is Ali Dunn, and I'm a leadership and Enneagram coach. And I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. Originally from Canada, but have lived in the US now for almost 18 years.
Ali Dunn [00:00:43]:
And I first, actually, my career started in sales, which in the fashion industry, which is interesting. So I worked in wholesale. I did some buying, some traveling. And when I was in my twenties and early thirties, it was a dream job. I got to travel, go to different places, and meet new people, and also ran a team. I was working in a small organization, and, I really fell in love with leadership. I really fell in love with, leading my team, working with the women in my office. We were an all women office, and really just helping people, you know, with their confidence, their self promotion, and helping them live the lives that they want to.
Ali Dunn [00:01:19]:
One of the things that I struggled with though when I was working in sales was the idea that everything is about the bottom line. And so what I found is that there was a purpose misalignment. So I had this idea of, like, relationship building. I loved goal setting, but there was something in it that felt like, to me, I wanted more of a human experience, and I didn't know where that would lead. So I ended up, I became pregnant with my first daughter and stayed home with 2 of my my 2 girls when they were younger and was in what I would call a career transition. My husband was very driven and knew what he wanted to do with his life at that point. And for me, I felt a little bit confused because I had this world that I loved that was sales and travel. But then with 2 small children, I didn't know how I was going to balance it all.
Ali Dunn [00:02:05]:
So So I went on my own self development journey and ended up working with a coach. I joined a women's group of women who are in transition and trying to find out their next step and realized that a, we are all in the same boat. We don't have the answers, but we're there's a longing for more. So I wanted to figure out my more. And then, b, the part that I loved about work and sales, was really the relationship development and the success of my clients. So I kind of took the love of seeing my clients succeed and moving it more into that personal and professional transformation and launched my own coaching business. I have a value of learning, so I definitely, along the last 7 years of my business, have done a lot of courses, done a lot of accreditations. I originally started with the Co Active Training Institute.
Ali Dunn [00:02:55]:
I did an executive coaching through Berkeley. I also have trained in, Brene Brown's program and then ended up in the Enneagram about it's been about 2 years since I've been certified in the Enneagram, and I think I've found my way home.
Aoife O'Brien [00:03:08]:
Okay. And what prompted you to get into studying the Enneagram Enneagram?
Ali Dunn [00:03:14]:
Well, what happened is when I was doing and I think we've all done this in the workplace. We've done, you know, our DISC. We've done Myers Briggs. We've done a lot of different assessments, and I've always used assessments to help my own personal and professional growth. I mean, even starting as a 12 year old girl and doing the quiz in back of Cosmo magazine, which I like, who am I? What type of person am I or my favorite date? And what I found with the Enneagram was that because it measures your motivation, it unlocked this whole area for me of my why. Like, why I do the things I do and and also opened up this avenue around feedback. I received feedback through my life that, you know, maybe I wasn't as focused as other people. Maybe I wanted too much.
Ali Dunn [00:03:58]:
Maybe I had a hard time following through with things. And when I first did the Enneagram, probably, I would say 6 years ago, it was the first time where I felt really seen. It felt like it was something that I could identify with. I started to have a different amount of self compassion and an understanding for why I do the things I do, my strengths, my challenges, and then also just my blind spots and areas to work on. So what I realized, okay, if this can change my life, literally, with a document and maybe a bit of coaching, I thought, why not get certified? So I started to do the individual certification through the Enneagram, and then I went on and did the team certification. Because what I noticed with my individual coaching clients is some of them weren't happy at work. Right? So we could solve problems together 1 on 1. But what was happening kind of at the institution level, and how could I help change the culture? So diving into the Teams part, it's like I'm still working with the 1 on 1 client, but I also wanna go in and problem solve and figure out how to break down those communication barriers.
Aoife O'Brien [00:05:00]:
Yeah. I love that. I think everything that you've talked about is so relatable, this idea of a longing for more or just not feeling that sort of misalignment with what you're doing currently, but still having the recognition and the vision and understanding of what really fired you up about any of your previous roles and being able to kind of see that clearly and identify that. I love I'm one of those people. I don't remember doing quizzes now. I'm trying to think. Like, for me, it would have been just 17, which I think was a different version of it. Just 17 that they had in in, the states and Canada.
Aoife O'Brien [00:05:36]:
I'm sure there were some quizzes or something. I don't have a huge recollection, but I totally understand the concept. And then, DISC is kind of a newer idea for me, if you like. And then the Myers Briggs is something that we did through work, and it's something I've seen time and time again, being used as well. But this whole idea of having a label for what it is, who for who we are, for how we perform, for how we're motivated, for how we react to things, I think it helps us to understand and grow in self awareness. Whether we agree with what it says or not. I think it helps us to understand a little bit more about who we are. So I love this as an idea.
Aoife O'Brien [00:06:18]:
And then how it's evolved as well from not just the individual, but this view that it's the company as well. Like, I always say that your career doesn't exist in a vacuum. Your career exists in the environment in which you find yourself. So the culture of whatever organization you're in is so, so important. So I kind of take that 2 pronged approach. But I'd love to to dive in a little bit more. Maybe we talk about how the the enneagram can be used. Maybe if you want to share which type you are and kind of the lipo moments that you had associated with that.
Ali Dunn [00:06:55]:
Yeah. I would love to. So my Enneagram type is the Enneagram 7, so I'm known as the enthusiastic visionary, which has, you know, its pluses and minuses. I think from both a personal professional perspective, it's helped me, you know, understand that I am I'm an idea generator. I am a brainstormer. I am a big picture thinker. I'm someone who holds a high vision for the people in my life, for my, you know, the people I work with. And so I'm always kind of thinking bigger and brighter.
Ali Dunn [00:07:31]:
And there's something really beautiful about that, and there's something that is really complementary to other Enneagram types. But being a 7, there's also some other things that are not as easy. Details can be hard for me. Right? Kind of sitting in the pain can be hard for me. Right? So as a solopreneur and running my own business, I actually look to other Enneagram types in order to build my own, what I would call, like, personal board of directors. So I will ask myself, what would an Enneagram type 1 do, which is that perfectionist, that really organized person? Like, how would they handle, let's say, this business transaction? I lean into the Enneagram 5, which is the specialist, and they are a they're knowledge seekers. So their motivation is to understand, and so they go deep into data and information. Whereas a 7, I am very broad.
Ali Dunn [00:08:22]:
So if I could build my own little, like, you know, personal team and if I was gonna scale my business, I would I would love the 1, and I would love the 5 to be part of the trifecta.
Aoife O'Brien [00:08:31]:
I love that. I love that that whole perspective and this idea of having your personal board of directors based on so I know, like, if I think about the people that you need specifically within your network, it's like you want someone to challenge your thinking. You want someone who's a cheerleader. You want people to play these different roles, but I but I think this is a different way of thinking about it. You want to bring people's unique strengths to to the fore and allow them to to bring their best work so that you can do your best work while focusing on that big picture and not getting bogged down by the details and and the going into the deep knowledge and expertise. It's like, no. I'm I'm strictly up here doing the visionary stuff. Yeah.
Aoife O'Brien [00:09:17]:
I love that. Yeah. It's so true.
Ali Dunn [00:09:18]:
And I and I think, you know, there's 9 types in the Enneagram, and I like the way that you kind of hinted cheerleader. If you think about kind of even almost, like, the purpose of the role of each of those 9 types, I mentioned the perfectionist, and then we have a type 2, which is that relationship builder. So we all want one of those on our team. Right? That person that cares about the human connection or experience. Our type threes are the achievers, so they're going to the goal line. Right? They're they're on target. They're doing their thing. Type fours are the creatives, and it's really interesting because I worked with a company recently, and they were, you know, a well known larger kind of corporate organization.
Ali Dunn [00:09:55]:
And they had a ton of fours on their team, and I hadn't seen that before. And it was really incredible to witness because the fours are these creative, like, deep sea diver thinkers, and and they work when there's meaning present. And I just was so astounded that in this, like, corporate environment, they found this team and this place to call home that was full of meaning and purpose for them. And then we have our fives, which I mentioned, which are our data specialists. And then the 6 is the loyal skeptics. So a 6 is someone who does the risk analysis. So everyone does need a 6 on their team as well. Like, I could also probably add the 6 to my board of directors before I leap into, you know, the unknown.
Ali Dunn [00:10:36]:
And then our sevens, I mentioned, is me. Our eights, they can be called the leader or the controller. And that 8 I see a lot of eights in, like, the executive, leadership suite just because they tend to be so driven. They wanna control the outcomes. They have what I would call, like, that typical, kind of boardroom or corporate personality, you know, where and that's often when I work with the team dynamics, when I'm trying to break down a little bit when I'm thinking about inclusivity and allowing our introverts and extroverts to mesh and kind of opening up, you know, different perspectives with the 8. And then the 9 is our last enneagram type, and that's the peacemaker. And I always think the 9 is the one that's kind of holding everyone together, collaborating, but they also have a fear of conflict, so they have a tendency to sit in the back row.
Aoife O'Brien [00:11:24]:
Brilliant. Before we go into understand a little bit more about the different types, you mentioned about bringing introverts and extroverts together. Is there any relationship between the different types and being an introvert or extrovert? So is there any research to suggest that someone who is on I'm looking specifically maybe at the one that's very data heavy. Like, is does that tend to be more higher indexing on, say, interosions or something like that? Or is there anything to say that? Or is it not to say that it's split down the middle, but it maybe there's not a a cut and dried relationship between
Ali Dunn [00:11:59]:
them. Yeah. And I think what's interesting is I haven't done the full research on that as being a 7. But I have had public school experiential research. And what I've noticed, I've even seen, like, when you talked about the specialists, the 5, I've done a team building workshop in person where the 5 has actually sat outside of the circle. Like, it can be that evident that they are removing themselves. They like to set boundaries, and they do their internal, that they don't wanna be part of the equation. They don't necessarily wanna be called on.
Ali Dunn [00:12:29]:
Right? So learning how to value their differences, learning how to value the way that they they think because they're heavy thinkers. Because within the Enneagram as well, there's we talk about kind of, like, the head, heart, and body types. And so our head types are 6 and sevens and fives. And so everything
Aoife O'Brien [00:12:49]:
kind of
Ali Dunn [00:12:49]:
is filtered through the brain first. Right? Where if you have, like, a 2, for example, is a heart type, everything's filtered through the emotions. So I think that can play as well in the introversion and extroversion. So if you're more heady, even though a 7 is, you might be more likely to be quiet. I can kind of sense in a room. Again, I'm I am a feeler, but I can sense in a room the type sometimes when I go in just based on that because of that introversion and extroversion and the desire to be seen. And then some people just don't wanna be seen. And so the work, even at the individual level with a 9 per se, is is to help them be seen.
Ali Dunn [00:13:27]:
Right? They don't want conflicts, so they're not going to necessarily insert themselves in the equation. But they are the person that gets feedback all the time that says, please insert yourself into the equation.
Aoife O'Brien [00:13:36]:
And so it's
Ali Dunn [00:13:37]:
hard for them. Right? So we're kind of always working on that. People wanna hear your voice. People wanna hear what you have to say.
Aoife O'Brien [00:13:44]:
So get involved more.
Ali Dunn [00:13:45]:
That's the
Aoife O'Brien [00:13:46]:
kind of feedback for them. We need It's interesting, Ali, because as you're going through those different types, I'm kind of thinking I'm like, oh, yeah. I can relate to that. Oh, I can relate to that. I can relate to that. I can relate to that, and I can relate to that. So because people are listening today and they're not necessarily going off and they're gonna take a quiz straight away because I know you can take online assessments. I know there's lots of different tools that you can use.
Aoife O'Brien [00:14:14]:
Maybe some better than than others. I'm not sure your opinion on that. But if someone is listening today and they're trying to decide for which one they are, is there anything that really sets them apart? Or if there's one in particular that someone is thinking, oh, I I that could be me, how do they know for sure?
Ali Dunn [00:14:35]:
Yeah. And I always, attribute it to motivation. But so there's an exercise I often do at the beginning of a a workshop, which will be, you know, someone is mowing the lawn at 6 AM in the morning. Your neighbor, it's so loud, and it's like, why would they be doing this? And I'll ask the whole room and get these different opinions. And some people will say, like, oh, they're having company in the afternoon, and they wanna make the house perfect. A different type, and that might be a 2. A different type, like a 7, might say, oh, they have a party to go to, and they wanna get things done before the party. Someone who is an 8 might say they hate their neighbor.
Ali Dunn [00:15:10]:
Right? So it's just kind of interesting. Right? Like, the the responses that come up. And so what I like to share is that we're all maybe faced with the same problem, or we all have the same goal, but the motivation is how we go about doing it. So I think when you're asking yourself, okay. What type might it be? You have to align with your motivation. So at at baseline, like, a one, their motivation is to do the right thing. So do not be late with the one. Like, do the right thing.
Ali Dunn [00:15:37]:
That's the motivation. The 2 is about connection and relationships. They live for connection. A 3 is to win
Aoife O'Brien [00:15:47]:
and to be
Ali Dunn [00:15:47]:
successful. A 4 is to be original. A 5 is to understand. A 6 is for security, like to feel safe. A 7 is to experience it all or freedom. An 8 is to control. And then a 9 is harmony.
Aoife O'Brien [00:16:18]:
I I could I'm reading down those motivations, and I'm still thinking I can absolutely relate to a few of those. But I think, obviously, that kinda comes from you need to take some sort of assessment or go do some sort of thing to really unpack what that motivation is, what that underlying motivation is. And then I think couple that with some coaching to further expand because I know certainly, I've had this conversation on the podcast before. And, you know, in it, I was sharing that I took, I took a particular assessment, a paid assessment. And the results that came out, I was like, yeah. Okay. That makes total sense for me. But then upon further reflection, I was like, is that me or is it actually something else? And and I was kinda thinking maybe I was a different one based on the conversation I had.
Aoife O'Brien [00:17:06]:
And now I'm thinking maybe I'm the original one that I always thought.
Ali Dunn [00:17:12]:
So so it cut out just for a second there. Will you just replay what you said that you had taken the assessment from there?
Aoife O'Brien [00:17:19]:
So I took the assessment, and it said one thing. And after my conversation on the podcast previously, I thought maybe I was a different number. And then after my conversation with you, I'm thinking maybe I'm the original number from when I took the assessment. So I think for me, it it kind of shows that it's potentially an ongoing process, and it you need to dig a little bit deeper with someone's expertise, dare I say, to fully understand and and I suppose how to utilize this. So there's obviously strong aspects and and more, there's strengths and development areas is what I was trying to say. There's strengths and and development areas across all of these different types.
Ali Dunn [00:18:06]:
Yes. Exactly. And and a couple of things on that for sure. So one, I am curious about your type because I think I have seen where people are very high in 2 types. It doesn't happen often where they can't decide which ones ones they are, but I've seen between twos and nines. There's a lot of similarities. It's hard to break that down or between threes and eights. And I can you know, numb my number one rule, of course, is not to make assumptions when I need anyone.
Ali Dunn [00:18:31]:
But based on language people use based on their lifestyle, like, if we were to pause, you know, and talk about you for one moment, it's like, freedom obviously is a high value for you because you work remotely, you travel. But I would say relationship building is also high for you as well. Right? I'm curious about your numbers, and and maybe we can break it down for a second.
Aoife O'Brien [00:18:56]:
Yeah. So do you wanna well, do you wanna take a guess at which which ones I'm thinking of? Because from what you're saying now
Ali Dunn [00:19:02]:
I mean yes. I think you might be a 7.
Aoife O'Brien [00:19:07]:
That's really interesting because I know that you're a 7. And from our very first phone call, we connected really well, and I don't know is that because of that. 7, I'll have to check the results, but that's definitely not something that I that came up very highly for me. What came up in the assessment that I took was 3, an achiever Okay. To win. And work aside, if we take my personal life and the fact that no one likes playing board games with me because I'm so determined to win, I think that says a lot. Like, you'd like to win too much. I'm like, just because I win all the time doesn't mean, you know, I'm not a sore loser.
Aoife O'Brien [00:19:51]:
Then they after my conversation, I was thinking maybe I was more of the one, which is the perfectionist. And I definitely have those perfectionist tendencies wanting to get things right, whether that's do the right thing or or be right or get things right and not be wrong. And maybe it's interesting to look at it from the the other side of the motivation. So, doing the right thing or being right is the opposite of not I don't want to be wrong. And so thinking of all of that, you know, from a relationship perspective, like, number 2, is it I don't want to be alone? Like, is are they the kind of the inherent motivations behind each of these?
Ali Dunn [00:20:37]:
Yeah. And I think exactly. It's like leaning into the opposite, like, that fear space. And it's interesting the, you know, with the one, chaos is really more, like, what comes with versus the opposite of, like, doing the right things. It's like that is is sort of their, fear point where a 3 would be failure, so there is that opposite
Aoife O'Brien [00:21:00]:
Yeah.
Ali Dunn [00:21:00]:
Key. And it's interesting with the board game reference because in some ways, when you're playing a board game with someone, like, you want them to follow the rules or you want to win. And I'm curious which one's more important to you.
Aoife O'Brien [00:21:15]:
Oh. Oh, that's getting deep now. I have to obviously be honest. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. I think I'm probably more of a rule follower. I'm probably more of a rule follower. Yeah.
Aoife O'Brien [00:21:33]:
Like, it really frustrates me when people break the rules.
Ali Dunn [00:21:37]:
Yes. Right. And that yeah, and that's probably more that one then. Exactly. Like, you want people to be on time. You want people to do the right thing.
Aoife O'Brien [00:21:45]:
Yeah.
Ali Dunn [00:21:46]:
It's it feels like something happens in your body, you know, if people are breaking the rules or not being fair or not being kind.
Aoife O'Brien [00:21:53]:
Yeah. Having said that, the on time thing is not a huge deal for me, I have to say, and I probably, at times in my life, have not been on time. I'm a maximizer of my time. So if I'm waiting for someone, then I'm gonna be doing something else. I'm not sitting twiddling my thumbs and wasting my time. But the there was something else that you said as well in relation to that. It was this idea. So the, the rule following yeah.
Aoife O'Brien [00:22:26]:
I think it's the that's that's what really frustrates me. I think if people oh, sorry. Yeah. On the rule following, it is it's follow the rules, but I could have my own rules for something. But I make sure that
Ali Dunn [00:22:38]:
I follow those rules. Yeah. Do you know if it's a little bit style yet. Yeah. Yeah. So There's also
Aoife O'Brien [00:22:44]:
element of freedom coming into that maybe.
Ali Dunn [00:22:47]:
Right. And that's why I had kind of picked up on the 7 just based on the, you know, I think an experiential lifestyle, you know, kind of what you're living and So, having Breaking
Aoife O'Brien [00:22:57]:
the rules a little bit.
Ali Dunn [00:22:58]:
Breaking the rules, and then also the way even, like, your business having it diversified. Just certain things like that, I think, do play into a a 7 as well. But with the one, ones can be quite hard on themselves, and that's another area that really shows up. It's like they're they can be hard on others. Right? There's a standard that's high, but the standard for themselves is incredibly high.
Aoife O'Brien [00:23:19]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's the same. Yeah. Totally. I have extremely high standards that I place on myself and other people, I might add.
Aoife O'Brien [00:23:29]:
So, yeah, if you're working with me, you wanna make sure that your standards are really high. And it is something over time that I've become aware of just not necessarily from the perspective of Enneagram, but more generally speaking, this whole perfectionist persona, for want of a better word, and just being aware of that, the expectations that we place on ourselves when we do have those perfectionist tendencies, and how that extends to the the expectations we set for other people or the standards that we set for other people and when they don't meet those standards. So that's something I'm just I'm very aware of and have been working on. And I suppose the the other thing that's interesting about this is, like, can this change over time? Does it change over time? Or is this your your you have your type. It doesn't necessarily change, but you can grow and develop.
Ali Dunn [00:24:22]:
Yes. And I think it's almost, like, maybe 10% of the does it change and then 90% in the developed space. So I have worked with people who have changed a bit based on their personal development journey. Yeah. Right? Because I think up until the point where we get coaching or have therapy or whatever it might be, our self awareness might be at, you know, a 10%, let's say. So you might think you're a certain way, but you don't actually know that. And so with the Enneagram, it's like there's various levels of integration. So you might have a low level of integration, and that's maybe a lot of your shadow size starts to come up because a a 7 with a low level of integration might be someone who, you know, maybe doesn't hold down a job, might be kind of indulgent, over experiencing life.
Ali Dunn [00:25:12]:
Right? Or maybe a one on the shadow side might be very, like, particular, unable almost, like, obsessive. Right? So there's some of those darker sides which could show up earlier. But as you go on your personal development journey and you start to bring in the other types of the Enneagram in your daily life, that's where you kind of get to that evolved space. And I would challenge anyone, and this certainly happened to me when I first discovered my type. When you see other types that you find triggering, that's the door you need to open.
Aoife O'Brien [00:25:45]:
Say no more. Say no more. Yeah. And so I suppose that kind of brings us on to this idea. So, Ali, you've gone from this sort of understanding on a one to one space to having a look at this from a team dynamics. So in relation to the different types, are there specific ones that trigger each other, and how do we solve that type of conflict, or how do we understand more of that type of conflict in the workplace?
Ali Dunn [00:26:14]:
Yeah. And it's and it's interesting because I think I get that question a lot. Like, are there Enneagram types that are more compatible, or, you know, how would I build the perfect team? And, you know, those kinds of questions. And I think first and foremost, it comes down to each individual's own, like, leadership and personal development journey. Right? Because the step one really is to know yourself, Enneagram type or not. Right? Like, having that self awareness, being vulnerable, being curious, you know, those kind of what I would call, like, the basic leadership connections. But then beyond that, there are certain types that that can clash more than others simply because the way they see the world is different. And and two types that come to mind right now are a type 5, which we talked about that kind of needing to that deeper understanding, that cerebral type that may be more quiet type, and then an 8, which is a much more extroverted kind of more dominant type.
Ali Dunn [00:27:12]:
So if you think about that in a team dynamic, an 8 wants what it wants when it wants. Right? So if you're working with an 8, it's like, this is the deadline. Sometimes 8, like, their pace is so fast. They're already finished, but and people are still over here kind of thinking and feeling.
Aoife O'Brien [00:27:28]:
And
Ali Dunn [00:27:29]:
so if you're a 5 and you're working with an 8, like, there has to be a conversation of how you meet in the middle. You know? And so a 5 might say, you know, I'm an internal processor. I can meet you at the table, but I need to be able to go back to my cave. I need to take some time. I need to think about it, and then I'll return where an 8 wants to follow you into that cave. Yeah. Right? And just wants to get that information. And so one of the comments that I get most often after doing the team building exercises in the workshop is that I just didn't realize that people had a different way of seeing things.
Aoife O'Brien [00:28:05]:
Mhmm.
Ali Dunn [00:28:05]:
That is specific any gram types are gonna be more, let's say, less aware, right, of how other people maybe are feeling, thinking, and acting. And so my job is to just, like, break down those communication barriers and just help people be seen for kind of who they are and then help amplify their strengths as well as draw them into, you know, different areas of the Enneagram to kind of become more holistic within the team, but it can be really challenging. And each Enneagram type reacts to, conflict differently and generally wants feedback differently. So those are usually the 2 areas that I focus on is conflict and feedback.
Aoife O'Brien [00:28:46]:
Yeah. So in what ways do people, approach conflict in a different way? Do you have some examples maybe, maybe some extreme examples within the different types of how people approach conflict?
Ali Dunn [00:28:59]:
For sure. And it it's funny because it can be complimentary as well if they're different, but I was working with a a duo yesterday. So 2 people in an organization. And, she one person was a 9, So that kind of harmonious peacekeeper, and then the other person was a 6. So that skeptic, a little bit anxious. Right? So they're very complimentary. When we broke everything down, we could really see the similarities and the differences. But what's interesting about their conflict style is that a 6 is reactive.
Ali Dunn [00:29:27]:
So they're they're more defensive. They're gonna react. There's gonna be a bit of an emotional outburst where a 9 is avoidant. So they are walking away. There's a silver lining element. There's let's keep it positive. Let's keep it light. And so our conclusion or what we came up with was, like, let's have some language around when it's okay to, like, reframe and keep it light and move on.
Ali Dunn [00:29:50]:
And then when when do we need to dig in? Right? And really, like, look at the situation because people who reframe or any types that reframe a 7 is also one of them, and a 2 is sometimes it's, like, making the best of something or finding the silver lining. It's not really solving the core issue. So in an organization or a team, you wanna look in and say, hey. What could we have done better? Right? What would I do differently now that I know this going forward instead of, like, trying to just skip over it? So I think with the 6 and the 9, when you have an avoidant and a reactive, it's just having that conversation and bringing awareness to the table around how you both react to conflict.
Aoife O'Brien [00:30:29]:
Yeah. Well, that makes sense if the if the 9, their main driver is harmony and maintaining harmony. And the way they see maintaining harmony is to not get into conflict to begin with without this understanding that conflict can actually be good, and it can help us to solve problems by getting them out in the open. I say that as a slightly avoidant person myself, where, yeah, I know that, cognitively, I know that in my head. But actually, when it comes down to it, I do find it hard to deal with that sometimes. But interesting about this, something that that kind of came up for me was the attachment type. So when you talk about someone being avoidant, is that in any way related to the attachment types? Because I know that our personalities are formed from a very young age as our our attachment styles. And I don't know, have you looked into that, any relationships between attachment theory and, and the the Enneagram types?
Ali Dunn [00:31:35]:
Well, I I haven't, and it's interesting that you brought that up because I think so many of these theories, whether they're, you know, in psych psychology or the assessment, like, there's so many that are connected.
Aoife O'Brien [00:31:47]:
Yeah.
Ali Dunn [00:31:47]:
And I think that, if we bring up the 2, the Enneagram 2, their core fear is, being forgotten.
Aoife O'Brien [00:31:57]:
Okay.
Ali Dunn [00:31:57]:
Right? So their motivation is appreciation, but their core fear is being forgotten. And I 100% believe that that is related to an attachment type. Right? And I think that the avoidant type would be also in the attachment avoidance space. You know what I mean? So it's like, I think I think those that are, like, looking for those deep, deep hold on tight connections, like a 2 and a 4,
Aoife O'Brien [00:32:21]:
probably are
Ali Dunn [00:32:21]:
one type where a 7 might be on the avoidance side. So I haven't studied the the connection, but I think that there is one because I believe that the Enneagram is part nurture, part nature. Yeah. To some of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ali Dunn [00:32:30]:
Yeah. I think that part nature. Yeah.
Aoife O'Brien [00:32:33]:
So some of it. Right? Because when we talk to when I talk to clients and even it comes up sometimes
Ali Dunn [00:32:35]:
in the team space, we talk a little bit about family dynamics. Mhmm. Right? And so people start to understand their role within their family was, oh, I was the peacekeeper. Right? There was conflict in my home, and I was seen as the one that was going to make things smooth. I was seen as the one to, you know, kind of break the tension. Right? Or I need us to take control because x y z was happening. Right? So there's certain roles that we take on, yeah, as we grow up, and I think that they continue to, like, show up through our Enneagram types.
Aoife O'Brien [00:33:11]:
Yeah. No. It's interesting. And I think so so would it be fair to say then it's, a mix of genes, your family dynamic as you were growing up, and then the subsequent environments that you found yourself in that that further shaped your experience of the world and further shaped your opinions, your beliefs, and your behaviors, and and how you show up.
Ali Dunn [00:33:34]:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And I think when you go back and you look at your family, I encourage everyone who's listening to this podcast today to, you know, find out their type, ask their family as well-to-do the quiz as well. Because when I started to think about my family and my type, my mom and my brother are both nines, and it helped me understand why I I was like, don't they want to also be doing all the things, or what's what does that mean for me? Or, you know, why aren't they leaning in? Just a few different things, like, kind of shed light on that for me, and it helped me understand, yeah, my role and how I took that part on. Right? In a way someone had to be the driver. Right? So that ended up kinda being my role in the family, and I think that that stays with you, and then you end up putting yourselves in other environments that are the same. Yeah.
Ali Dunn [00:34:22]:
So over the past few years doing more work, I don't necessarily take on that role now, and I have obviously more acceptance for the way people are and how they interact differently. But it is just an interesting journey.
Aoife O'Brien [00:34:35]:
And I think it's interesting when you say that. So there's a couple of things that I wanted to pick up on. It's the us choosing those same environments because of how we show up in the world and how our beliefs about the world, but also the roles that we play, the role that you played in your family and and how that role you didn't necessarily choose that role. It's kind of how was thrust upon you, for want of a better word, but also digging in behind to get a better understanding because I think so many of us assume that everyone is the same, that we all have the same motivations and desires. And I know for me, on a personal level, for a long time, I was waiting for someone to say, come on, Aoife. We're going to London. London to me was considered, like, the big smoke. I was from Dublin and Ireland, but London is, like, the bigger city.
Aoife O'Brien [00:35:28]:
And I got to a stage in my mid twenties where I realized no one's coming to take me by the hand and bring me to London. If I want to do it, then I have to make that happen for myself. And so that was a really important turning point and a really important learning for me at that point. But I think, you know, getting this understanding that not everyone views everything in the same way. So if I'm reading between the lines in what you're saying, you have this big vision for how you want to see your business, but and this is so typical of entrepreneurs, I think, that other people just don't get it. They don't get that drive. They don't get what it is that you're on a mission to do. From your perspective, you're probably looking at them going, oh, they're not supporting me or they're they're not doing, they're not giving me feedback or they're not really cheering me on or whatever it might be, like the expectations that you would have and the kind of thing that you feel you would do for someone else.
Aoife O'Brien [00:36:22]:
But when we realize that everyone views things in such a different way and comes out from such a different perspective, it helps us to get over the fact that people are not behaving in the way that we might expect. And I think the Enneagram is a really great way to understand that. And I think after this conversation, I would love to try and decipher. I don't know how how on for doing a quiz my family might be, but I'd be really curious to kind of even just have a think about the the different roles that people play within my family, even within my friendship groups as well. It's it's so true.
Ali Dunn [00:36:59]:
And I, and I love the way that you've summarized, that and talking about going to London. And one of my favorite expressions that I say is no one is going to roll out the red carpet for you.
Aoife O'Brien [00:37:09]:
Yeah.
Ali Dunn [00:37:10]:
We spend a lot of our life waiting for people to see us or understand us or know what we need and that their motivations or desires are the same as ours, and it's not true. And like you, running my own business, I do think some people think I'm crazy, or some people don't understand why I do the things I do. And that feedback piece of people always telling me to slow down. Doing too much. I'm doing too many things. I now understand that that's because they're uncomfortable with that. It doesn't mean what I'm doing is wrong or bad. So it's just been really helpful that way.
Ali Dunn [00:37:42]:
So it's like I know I know when I'm doing way too much, and I will slow down, but it is just interesting that that's just not a place that everyone wants to live and respecting that other people wanna live in a different space, which is maybe, yeah, that more easygoing, harmonious space or maybe that more organized, perfectionistic space. And we're all different, and it's okay. And I think that's what it's, like, the whole self acceptance, accepting ourselves, accepting each other, and
Aoife O'Brien [00:38:07]:
I kinda think in a
Ali Dunn [00:38:07]:
way that's really what the enneagram is all about.
Aoife O'Brien [00:38:10]:
Yeah. And I think, again, bringing that back to the work context and it's understanding everyone has this different approach or a different motivation. And the one that really stuck in my mind for what you were saying is and I think it was maybe the number 8 or possibly the 3 where they're so focused on getting stuff done, and they're moving at such a pace that they're leaving other people behind. And you need to be aware of what the limitations or the challenges are of your type so that you can bring other people on that journey and get them to understand your perspective from having that understanding of your own perspective within this this framework as well, I think.
Ali Dunn [00:38:52]:
Yeah. It's so true. Because I was the the metaphor, the vision I have is, yeah, the 8 and the 3 are at the end of the race, but it's like, you need to slow down. You need to pick up the other people. You need to take a beat. You need to drink water. Right? There's a whole thing that goes into that race, and it's not just about the finish line. And so kind of opening up the possibilities and expanding that for certain types.
Ali Dunn [00:39:14]:
And then also calling on the other ones, like, it's okay to not stay in your head. It's okay to, like, get into action. Right? There's a lot of other ways that you can kind of express yourself or or step outside of your comfort zone.
Aoife O'Brien [00:39:25]:
Yeah. Love that. Love that. Ali, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?
Ali Dunn [00:39:33]:
I mean, it's so funny because my first instinct is to think of others and how they're happier at work because that's the work I do to ensure people are happy, and I alluded that at the beginning of the conversation of making sure that the culture is great and that my clients are happy. But I think for me, what what being happier at work means is is being with people who have aligned values, shared purpose, and back to the Enneagram, having freedom.
Aoife O'Brien [00:40:00]:
I just love that. And if people want to connect with you, if they want to learn more about what you do, what's the best place they can do that?
Ali Dunn [00:40:07]:
They can, head to my website, which is just alidun.com, and I would love to hear from everyone who's listening today. Brilliant. Thank you
Aoife O'Brien [00:40:16]:
so much for your time today, Ali. I absolutely love your energy. We had such an amazing conversation, and I I can't believe how quickly the time has gone. I'm like, we could probably be sitting here talking about this all day, but, in the interest of keeping it to a reasonable length, then we will end it here. But I really, really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much.
Ali Dunn [00:40:36]:
Thank you so much for having me.
Ali, you're so welcome to the happier at work podcast. I know we had a conversation about being on the podcast probably going back months ago now because prerecording of dating each other and what's been going on. There's been a lot that's been happening in both of our lives. So you're so welcome to the happier at work podcast. I'm really pleased to have you as my guest today. Do you want to let people know a little bit about your background and how you got into doing what you're doing?
Ali Dunn [00:00:28]:
Yes. I would love to. Thank you so much for having me. It really is an honor to be here. Yes. So my name is Ali Dunn, and I'm a leadership and Enneagram coach. And I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. Originally from Canada, but have lived in the US now for almost 18 years.
Ali Dunn [00:00:43]:
And I first, actually, my career started in sales, which in the fashion industry, which is interesting. So I worked in wholesale. I did some buying, some traveling. And when I was in my twenties and early thirties, it was a dream job. I got to travel, go to different places, and meet new people, and also ran a team. I was working in a small organization, and, I really fell in love with leadership. I really fell in love with, leading my team, working with the women in my office. We were an all women office, and really just helping people, you know, with their confidence, their self promotion, and helping them live the lives that they want to.
Ali Dunn [00:01:19]:
One of the things that I struggled with though when I was working in sales was the idea that everything is about the bottom line. And so what I found is that there was a purpose misalignment. So I had this idea of, like, relationship building. I loved goal setting, but there was something in it that felt like, to me, I wanted more of a human experience, and I didn't know where that would lead. So I ended up, I became pregnant with my first daughter and stayed home with 2 of my my 2 girls when they were younger and was in what I would call a career transition. My husband was very driven and knew what he wanted to do with his life at that point. And for me, I felt a little bit confused because I had this world that I loved that was sales and travel. But then with 2 small children, I didn't know how I was going to balance it all.
Ali Dunn [00:02:05]:
So So I went on my own self development journey and ended up working with a coach. I joined a women's group of women who are in transition and trying to find out their next step and realized that a, we are all in the same boat. We don't have the answers, but we're there's a longing for more. So I wanted to figure out my more. And then, b, the part that I loved about work and sales, was really the relationship development and the success of my clients. So I kind of took the love of seeing my clients succeed and moving it more into that personal and professional transformation and launched my own coaching business. I have a value of learning, so I definitely, along the last 7 years of my business, have done a lot of courses, done a lot of accreditations. I originally started with the Co Active Training Institute.
Ali Dunn [00:02:55]:
I did an executive coaching through Berkeley. I also have trained in, Brene Brown's program and then ended up in the Enneagram about it's been about 2 years since I've been certified in the Enneagram, and I think I've found my way home.
Aoife O'Brien [00:03:08]:
Okay. And what prompted you to get into studying the Enneagram Enneagram?
Ali Dunn [00:03:14]:
Well, what happened is when I was doing and I think we've all done this in the workplace. We've done, you know, our DISC. We've done Myers Briggs. We've done a lot of different assessments, and I've always used assessments to help my own personal and professional growth. I mean, even starting as a 12 year old girl and doing the quiz in back of Cosmo magazine, which I like, who am I? What type of person am I or my favorite date? And what I found with the Enneagram was that because it measures your motivation, it unlocked this whole area for me of my why. Like, why I do the things I do and and also opened up this avenue around feedback. I received feedback through my life that, you know, maybe I wasn't as focused as other people. Maybe I wanted too much.
Ali Dunn [00:03:58]:
Maybe I had a hard time following through with things. And when I first did the Enneagram, probably, I would say 6 years ago, it was the first time where I felt really seen. It felt like it was something that I could identify with. I started to have a different amount of self compassion and an understanding for why I do the things I do, my strengths, my challenges, and then also just my blind spots and areas to work on. So what I realized, okay, if this can change my life, literally, with a document and maybe a bit of coaching, I thought, why not get certified? So I started to do the individual certification through the Enneagram, and then I went on and did the team certification. Because what I noticed with my individual coaching clients is some of them weren't happy at work. Right? So we could solve problems together 1 on 1. But what was happening kind of at the institution level, and how could I help change the culture? So diving into the Teams part, it's like I'm still working with the 1 on 1 client, but I also wanna go in and problem solve and figure out how to break down those communication barriers.
Aoife O'Brien [00:05:00]:
Yeah. I love that. I think everything that you've talked about is so relatable, this idea of a longing for more or just not feeling that sort of misalignment with what you're doing currently, but still having the recognition and the vision and understanding of what really fired you up about any of your previous roles and being able to kind of see that clearly and identify that. I love I'm one of those people. I don't remember doing quizzes now. I'm trying to think. Like, for me, it would have been just 17, which I think was a different version of it. Just 17 that they had in in, the states and Canada.
Aoife O'Brien [00:05:36]:
I'm sure there were some quizzes or something. I don't have a huge recollection, but I totally understand the concept. And then, DISC is kind of a newer idea for me, if you like. And then the Myers Briggs is something that we did through work, and it's something I've seen time and time again, being used as well. But this whole idea of having a label for what it is, who for who we are, for how we perform, for how we're motivated, for how we react to things, I think it helps us to understand and grow in self awareness. Whether we agree with what it says or not. I think it helps us to understand a little bit more about who we are. So I love this as an idea.
Aoife O'Brien [00:06:18]:
And then how it's evolved as well from not just the individual, but this view that it's the company as well. Like, I always say that your career doesn't exist in a vacuum. Your career exists in the environment in which you find yourself. So the culture of whatever organization you're in is so, so important. So I kind of take that 2 pronged approach. But I'd love to to dive in a little bit more. Maybe we talk about how the the enneagram can be used. Maybe if you want to share which type you are and kind of the lipo moments that you had associated with that.
Ali Dunn [00:06:55]:
Yeah. I would love to. So my Enneagram type is the Enneagram 7, so I'm known as the enthusiastic visionary, which has, you know, its pluses and minuses. I think from both a personal professional perspective, it's helped me, you know, understand that I am I'm an idea generator. I am a brainstormer. I am a big picture thinker. I'm someone who holds a high vision for the people in my life, for my, you know, the people I work with. And so I'm always kind of thinking bigger and brighter.
Ali Dunn [00:07:31]:
And there's something really beautiful about that, and there's something that is really complementary to other Enneagram types. But being a 7, there's also some other things that are not as easy. Details can be hard for me. Right? Kind of sitting in the pain can be hard for me. Right? So as a solopreneur and running my own business, I actually look to other Enneagram types in order to build my own, what I would call, like, personal board of directors. So I will ask myself, what would an Enneagram type 1 do, which is that perfectionist, that really organized person? Like, how would they handle, let's say, this business transaction? I lean into the Enneagram 5, which is the specialist, and they are a they're knowledge seekers. So their motivation is to understand, and so they go deep into data and information. Whereas a 7, I am very broad.
Ali Dunn [00:08:22]:
So if I could build my own little, like, you know, personal team and if I was gonna scale my business, I would I would love the 1, and I would love the 5 to be part of the trifecta.
Aoife O'Brien [00:08:31]:
I love that. I love that that whole perspective and this idea of having your personal board of directors based on so I know, like, if I think about the people that you need specifically within your network, it's like you want someone to challenge your thinking. You want someone who's a cheerleader. You want people to play these different roles, but I but I think this is a different way of thinking about it. You want to bring people's unique strengths to to the fore and allow them to to bring their best work so that you can do your best work while focusing on that big picture and not getting bogged down by the details and and the going into the deep knowledge and expertise. It's like, no. I'm I'm strictly up here doing the visionary stuff. Yeah.
Aoife O'Brien [00:09:17]:
I love that. Yeah. It's so true.
Ali Dunn [00:09:18]:
And I and I think, you know, there's 9 types in the Enneagram, and I like the way that you kind of hinted cheerleader. If you think about kind of even almost, like, the purpose of the role of each of those 9 types, I mentioned the perfectionist, and then we have a type 2, which is that relationship builder. So we all want one of those on our team. Right? That person that cares about the human connection or experience. Our type threes are the achievers, so they're going to the goal line. Right? They're they're on target. They're doing their thing. Type fours are the creatives, and it's really interesting because I worked with a company recently, and they were, you know, a well known larger kind of corporate organization.
Ali Dunn [00:09:55]:
And they had a ton of fours on their team, and I hadn't seen that before. And it was really incredible to witness because the fours are these creative, like, deep sea diver thinkers, and and they work when there's meaning present. And I just was so astounded that in this, like, corporate environment, they found this team and this place to call home that was full of meaning and purpose for them. And then we have our fives, which I mentioned, which are our data specialists. And then the 6 is the loyal skeptics. So a 6 is someone who does the risk analysis. So everyone does need a 6 on their team as well. Like, I could also probably add the 6 to my board of directors before I leap into, you know, the unknown.
Ali Dunn [00:10:36]:
And then our sevens, I mentioned, is me. Our eights, they can be called the leader or the controller. And that 8 I see a lot of eights in, like, the executive, leadership suite just because they tend to be so driven. They wanna control the outcomes. They have what I would call, like, that typical, kind of boardroom or corporate personality, you know, where and that's often when I work with the team dynamics, when I'm trying to break down a little bit when I'm thinking about inclusivity and allowing our introverts and extroverts to mesh and kind of opening up, you know, different perspectives with the 8. And then the 9 is our last enneagram type, and that's the peacemaker. And I always think the 9 is the one that's kind of holding everyone together, collaborating, but they also have a fear of conflict, so they have a tendency to sit in the back row.
Aoife O'Brien [00:11:24]:
Brilliant. Before we go into understand a little bit more about the different types, you mentioned about bringing introverts and extroverts together. Is there any relationship between the different types and being an introvert or extrovert? So is there any research to suggest that someone who is on I'm looking specifically maybe at the one that's very data heavy. Like, is does that tend to be more higher indexing on, say, interosions or something like that? Or is there anything to say that? Or is it not to say that it's split down the middle, but it maybe there's not a a cut and dried relationship between
Ali Dunn [00:11:59]:
them. Yeah. And I think what's interesting is I haven't done the full research on that as being a 7. But I have had public school experiential research. And what I've noticed, I've even seen, like, when you talked about the specialists, the 5, I've done a team building workshop in person where the 5 has actually sat outside of the circle. Like, it can be that evident that they are removing themselves. They like to set boundaries, and they do their internal, that they don't wanna be part of the equation. They don't necessarily wanna be called on.
Ali Dunn [00:12:29]:
Right? So learning how to value their differences, learning how to value the way that they they think because they're heavy thinkers. Because within the Enneagram as well, there's we talk about kind of, like, the head, heart, and body types. And so our head types are 6 and sevens and fives. And so everything
Aoife O'Brien [00:12:49]:
kind of
Ali Dunn [00:12:49]:
is filtered through the brain first. Right? Where if you have, like, a 2, for example, is a heart type, everything's filtered through the emotions. So I think that can play as well in the introversion and extroversion. So if you're more heady, even though a 7 is, you might be more likely to be quiet. I can kind of sense in a room. Again, I'm I am a feeler, but I can sense in a room the type sometimes when I go in just based on that because of that introversion and extroversion and the desire to be seen. And then some people just don't wanna be seen. And so the work, even at the individual level with a 9 per se, is is to help them be seen.
Ali Dunn [00:13:27]:
Right? They don't want conflicts, so they're not going to necessarily insert themselves in the equation. But they are the person that gets feedback all the time that says, please insert yourself into the equation.
Aoife O'Brien [00:13:36]:
And so it's
Ali Dunn [00:13:37]:
hard for them. Right? So we're kind of always working on that. People wanna hear your voice. People wanna hear what you have to say.
Aoife O'Brien [00:13:44]:
So get involved more.
Ali Dunn [00:13:45]:
That's the
Aoife O'Brien [00:13:46]:
kind of feedback for them. We need It's interesting, Ali, because as you're going through those different types, I'm kind of thinking I'm like, oh, yeah. I can relate to that. Oh, I can relate to that. I can relate to that. I can relate to that, and I can relate to that. So because people are listening today and they're not necessarily going off and they're gonna take a quiz straight away because I know you can take online assessments. I know there's lots of different tools that you can use.
Aoife O'Brien [00:14:14]:
Maybe some better than than others. I'm not sure your opinion on that. But if someone is listening today and they're trying to decide for which one they are, is there anything that really sets them apart? Or if there's one in particular that someone is thinking, oh, I I that could be me, how do they know for sure?
Ali Dunn [00:14:35]:
Yeah. And I always, attribute it to motivation. But so there's an exercise I often do at the beginning of a a workshop, which will be, you know, someone is mowing the lawn at 6 AM in the morning. Your neighbor, it's so loud, and it's like, why would they be doing this? And I'll ask the whole room and get these different opinions. And some people will say, like, oh, they're having company in the afternoon, and they wanna make the house perfect. A different type, and that might be a 2. A different type, like a 7, might say, oh, they have a party to go to, and they wanna get things done before the party. Someone who is an 8 might say they hate their neighbor.
Ali Dunn [00:15:10]:
Right? So it's just kind of interesting. Right? Like, the the responses that come up. And so what I like to share is that we're all maybe faced with the same problem, or we all have the same goal, but the motivation is how we go about doing it. So I think when you're asking yourself, okay. What type might it be? You have to align with your motivation. So at at baseline, like, a one, their motivation is to do the right thing. So do not be late with the one. Like, do the right thing.
Ali Dunn [00:15:37]:
That's the motivation. The 2 is about connection and relationships. They live for connection. A 3 is to win
Aoife O'Brien [00:15:47]:
and to be
Ali Dunn [00:15:47]:
successful. A 4 is to be original. A 5 is to understand. A 6 is for security, like to feel safe. A 7 is to experience it all or freedom. An 8 is to control. And then a 9 is harmony.
Aoife O'Brien [00:16:18]:
I I could I'm reading down those motivations, and I'm still thinking I can absolutely relate to a few of those. But I think, obviously, that kinda comes from you need to take some sort of assessment or go do some sort of thing to really unpack what that motivation is, what that underlying motivation is. And then I think couple that with some coaching to further expand because I know certainly, I've had this conversation on the podcast before. And, you know, in it, I was sharing that I took, I took a particular assessment, a paid assessment. And the results that came out, I was like, yeah. Okay. That makes total sense for me. But then upon further reflection, I was like, is that me or is it actually something else? And and I was kinda thinking maybe I was a different one based on the conversation I had.
Aoife O'Brien [00:17:06]:
And now I'm thinking maybe I'm the original one that I always thought.
Ali Dunn [00:17:12]:
So so it cut out just for a second there. Will you just replay what you said that you had taken the assessment from there?
Aoife O'Brien [00:17:19]:
So I took the assessment, and it said one thing. And after my conversation on the podcast previously, I thought maybe I was a different number. And then after my conversation with you, I'm thinking maybe I'm the original number from when I took the assessment. So I think for me, it it kind of shows that it's potentially an ongoing process, and it you need to dig a little bit deeper with someone's expertise, dare I say, to fully understand and and I suppose how to utilize this. So there's obviously strong aspects and and more, there's strengths and development areas is what I was trying to say. There's strengths and and development areas across all of these different types.
Ali Dunn [00:18:06]:
Yes. Exactly. And and a couple of things on that for sure. So one, I am curious about your type because I think I have seen where people are very high in 2 types. It doesn't happen often where they can't decide which ones ones they are, but I've seen between twos and nines. There's a lot of similarities. It's hard to break that down or between threes and eights. And I can you know, numb my number one rule, of course, is not to make assumptions when I need anyone.
Ali Dunn [00:18:31]:
But based on language people use based on their lifestyle, like, if we were to pause, you know, and talk about you for one moment, it's like, freedom obviously is a high value for you because you work remotely, you travel. But I would say relationship building is also high for you as well. Right? I'm curious about your numbers, and and maybe we can break it down for a second.
Aoife O'Brien [00:18:56]:
Yeah. So do you wanna well, do you wanna take a guess at which which ones I'm thinking of? Because from what you're saying now
Ali Dunn [00:19:02]:
I mean yes. I think you might be a 7.
Aoife O'Brien [00:19:07]:
That's really interesting because I know that you're a 7. And from our very first phone call, we connected really well, and I don't know is that because of that. 7, I'll have to check the results, but that's definitely not something that I that came up very highly for me. What came up in the assessment that I took was 3, an achiever Okay. To win. And work aside, if we take my personal life and the fact that no one likes playing board games with me because I'm so determined to win, I think that says a lot. Like, you'd like to win too much. I'm like, just because I win all the time doesn't mean, you know, I'm not a sore loser.
Aoife O'Brien [00:19:51]:
Then they after my conversation, I was thinking maybe I was more of the one, which is the perfectionist. And I definitely have those perfectionist tendencies wanting to get things right, whether that's do the right thing or or be right or get things right and not be wrong. And maybe it's interesting to look at it from the the other side of the motivation. So, doing the right thing or being right is the opposite of not I don't want to be wrong. And so thinking of all of that, you know, from a relationship perspective, like, number 2, is it I don't want to be alone? Like, is are they the kind of the inherent motivations behind each of these?
Ali Dunn [00:20:37]:
Yeah. And I think exactly. It's like leaning into the opposite, like, that fear space. And it's interesting the, you know, with the one, chaos is really more, like, what comes with versus the opposite of, like, doing the right things. It's like that is is sort of their, fear point where a 3 would be failure, so there is that opposite
Aoife O'Brien [00:21:00]:
Yeah.
Ali Dunn [00:21:00]:
Key. And it's interesting with the board game reference because in some ways, when you're playing a board game with someone, like, you want them to follow the rules or you want to win. And I'm curious which one's more important to you.
Aoife O'Brien [00:21:15]:
Oh. Oh, that's getting deep now. I have to obviously be honest. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. I think I'm probably more of a rule follower. I'm probably more of a rule follower. Yeah.
Aoife O'Brien [00:21:33]:
Like, it really frustrates me when people break the rules.
Ali Dunn [00:21:37]:
Yes. Right. And that yeah, and that's probably more that one then. Exactly. Like, you want people to be on time. You want people to do the right thing.
Aoife O'Brien [00:21:45]:
Yeah.
Ali Dunn [00:21:46]:
It's it feels like something happens in your body, you know, if people are breaking the rules or not being fair or not being kind.
Aoife O'Brien [00:21:53]:
Yeah. Having said that, the on time thing is not a huge deal for me, I have to say, and I probably, at times in my life, have not been on time. I'm a maximizer of my time. So if I'm waiting for someone, then I'm gonna be doing something else. I'm not sitting twiddling my thumbs and wasting my time. But the there was something else that you said as well in relation to that. It was this idea. So the, the rule following yeah.
Aoife O'Brien [00:22:26]:
I think it's the that's that's what really frustrates me. I think if people oh, sorry. Yeah. On the rule following, it is it's follow the rules, but I could have my own rules for something. But I make sure that
Ali Dunn [00:22:38]:
I follow those rules. Yeah. Do you know if it's a little bit style yet. Yeah. Yeah. So There's also
Aoife O'Brien [00:22:44]:
element of freedom coming into that maybe.
Ali Dunn [00:22:47]:
Right. And that's why I had kind of picked up on the 7 just based on the, you know, I think an experiential lifestyle, you know, kind of what you're living and So, having Breaking
Aoife O'Brien [00:22:57]:
the rules a little bit.
Ali Dunn [00:22:58]:
Breaking the rules, and then also the way even, like, your business having it diversified. Just certain things like that, I think, do play into a a 7 as well. But with the one, ones can be quite hard on themselves, and that's another area that really shows up. It's like they're they can be hard on others. Right? There's a standard that's high, but the standard for themselves is incredibly high.
Aoife O'Brien [00:23:19]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's the same. Yeah. Totally. I have extremely high standards that I place on myself and other people, I might add.
Aoife O'Brien [00:23:29]:
So, yeah, if you're working with me, you wanna make sure that your standards are really high. And it is something over time that I've become aware of just not necessarily from the perspective of Enneagram, but more generally speaking, this whole perfectionist persona, for want of a better word, and just being aware of that, the expectations that we place on ourselves when we do have those perfectionist tendencies, and how that extends to the the expectations we set for other people or the standards that we set for other people and when they don't meet those standards. So that's something I'm just I'm very aware of and have been working on. And I suppose the the other thing that's interesting about this is, like, can this change over time? Does it change over time? Or is this your your you have your type. It doesn't necessarily change, but you can grow and develop.
Ali Dunn [00:24:22]:
Yes. And I think it's almost, like, maybe 10% of the does it change and then 90% in the developed space. So I have worked with people who have changed a bit based on their personal development journey. Yeah. Right? Because I think up until the point where we get coaching or have therapy or whatever it might be, our self awareness might be at, you know, a 10%, let's say. So you might think you're a certain way, but you don't actually know that. And so with the Enneagram, it's like there's various levels of integration. So you might have a low level of integration, and that's maybe a lot of your shadow size starts to come up because a a 7 with a low level of integration might be someone who, you know, maybe doesn't hold down a job, might be kind of indulgent, over experiencing life.
Ali Dunn [00:25:12]:
Right? Or maybe a one on the shadow side might be very, like, particular, unable almost, like, obsessive. Right? So there's some of those darker sides which could show up earlier. But as you go on your personal development journey and you start to bring in the other types of the Enneagram in your daily life, that's where you kind of get to that evolved space. And I would challenge anyone, and this certainly happened to me when I first discovered my type. When you see other types that you find triggering, that's the door you need to open.
Aoife O'Brien [00:25:45]:
Say no more. Say no more. Yeah. And so I suppose that kind of brings us on to this idea. So, Ali, you've gone from this sort of understanding on a one to one space to having a look at this from a team dynamics. So in relation to the different types, are there specific ones that trigger each other, and how do we solve that type of conflict, or how do we understand more of that type of conflict in the workplace?
Ali Dunn [00:26:14]:
Yeah. And it's and it's interesting because I think I get that question a lot. Like, are there Enneagram types that are more compatible, or, you know, how would I build the perfect team? And, you know, those kinds of questions. And I think first and foremost, it comes down to each individual's own, like, leadership and personal development journey. Right? Because the step one really is to know yourself, Enneagram type or not. Right? Like, having that self awareness, being vulnerable, being curious, you know, those kind of what I would call, like, the basic leadership connections. But then beyond that, there are certain types that that can clash more than others simply because the way they see the world is different. And and two types that come to mind right now are a type 5, which we talked about that kind of needing to that deeper understanding, that cerebral type that may be more quiet type, and then an 8, which is a much more extroverted kind of more dominant type.
Ali Dunn [00:27:12]:
So if you think about that in a team dynamic, an 8 wants what it wants when it wants. Right? So if you're working with an 8, it's like, this is the deadline. Sometimes 8, like, their pace is so fast. They're already finished, but and people are still over here kind of thinking and feeling.
Aoife O'Brien [00:27:28]:
And
Ali Dunn [00:27:29]:
so if you're a 5 and you're working with an 8, like, there has to be a conversation of how you meet in the middle. You know? And so a 5 might say, you know, I'm an internal processor. I can meet you at the table, but I need to be able to go back to my cave. I need to take some time. I need to think about it, and then I'll return where an 8 wants to follow you into that cave. Yeah. Right? And just wants to get that information. And so one of the comments that I get most often after doing the team building exercises in the workshop is that I just didn't realize that people had a different way of seeing things.
Aoife O'Brien [00:28:05]:
Mhmm.
Ali Dunn [00:28:05]:
That is specific any gram types are gonna be more, let's say, less aware, right, of how other people maybe are feeling, thinking, and acting. And so my job is to just, like, break down those communication barriers and just help people be seen for kind of who they are and then help amplify their strengths as well as draw them into, you know, different areas of the Enneagram to kind of become more holistic within the team, but it can be really challenging. And each Enneagram type reacts to, conflict differently and generally wants feedback differently. So those are usually the 2 areas that I focus on is conflict and feedback.
Aoife O'Brien [00:28:46]:
Yeah. So in what ways do people, approach conflict in a different way? Do you have some examples maybe, maybe some extreme examples within the different types of how people approach conflict?
Ali Dunn [00:28:59]:
For sure. And it it's funny because it can be complimentary as well if they're different, but I was working with a a duo yesterday. So 2 people in an organization. And, she one person was a 9, So that kind of harmonious peacekeeper, and then the other person was a 6. So that skeptic, a little bit anxious. Right? So they're very complimentary. When we broke everything down, we could really see the similarities and the differences. But what's interesting about their conflict style is that a 6 is reactive.
Ali Dunn [00:29:27]:
So they're they're more defensive. They're gonna react. There's gonna be a bit of an emotional outburst where a 9 is avoidant. So they are walking away. There's a silver lining element. There's let's keep it positive. Let's keep it light. And so our conclusion or what we came up with was, like, let's have some language around when it's okay to, like, reframe and keep it light and move on.
Ali Dunn [00:29:50]:
And then when when do we need to dig in? Right? And really, like, look at the situation because people who reframe or any types that reframe a 7 is also one of them, and a 2 is sometimes it's, like, making the best of something or finding the silver lining. It's not really solving the core issue. So in an organization or a team, you wanna look in and say, hey. What could we have done better? Right? What would I do differently now that I know this going forward instead of, like, trying to just skip over it? So I think with the 6 and the 9, when you have an avoidant and a reactive, it's just having that conversation and bringing awareness to the table around how you both react to conflict.
Aoife O'Brien [00:30:29]:
Yeah. Well, that makes sense if the if the 9, their main driver is harmony and maintaining harmony. And the way they see maintaining harmony is to not get into conflict to begin with without this understanding that conflict can actually be good, and it can help us to solve problems by getting them out in the open. I say that as a slightly avoidant person myself, where, yeah, I know that, cognitively, I know that in my head. But actually, when it comes down to it, I do find it hard to deal with that sometimes. But interesting about this, something that that kind of came up for me was the attachment type. So when you talk about someone being avoidant, is that in any way related to the attachment types? Because I know that our personalities are formed from a very young age as our our attachment styles. And I don't know, have you looked into that, any relationships between attachment theory and, and the the Enneagram types?
Ali Dunn [00:31:35]:
Well, I I haven't, and it's interesting that you brought that up because I think so many of these theories, whether they're, you know, in psych psychology or the assessment, like, there's so many that are connected.
Aoife O'Brien [00:31:47]:
Yeah.
Ali Dunn [00:31:47]:
And I think that, if we bring up the 2, the Enneagram 2, their core fear is, being forgotten.
Aoife O'Brien [00:31:57]:
Okay.
Ali Dunn [00:31:57]:
Right? So their motivation is appreciation, but their core fear is being forgotten. And I 100% believe that that is related to an attachment type. Right? And I think that the avoidant type would be also in the attachment avoidance space. You know what I mean? So it's like, I think I think those that are, like, looking for those deep, deep hold on tight connections, like a 2 and a 4,
Aoife O'Brien [00:32:21]:
probably are
Ali Dunn [00:32:21]:
one type where a 7 might be on the avoidance side. So I haven't studied the the connection, but I think that there is one because I believe that the Enneagram is part nurture, part nature. Yeah. To some of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ali Dunn [00:32:30]:
Yeah. I think that part nature. Yeah.
Aoife O'Brien [00:32:33]:
So some of it. Right? Because when we talk to when I talk to clients and even it comes up sometimes
Ali Dunn [00:32:35]:
in the team space, we talk a little bit about family dynamics. Mhmm. Right? And so people start to understand their role within their family was, oh, I was the peacekeeper. Right? There was conflict in my home, and I was seen as the one that was going to make things smooth. I was seen as the one to, you know, kind of break the tension. Right? Or I need us to take control because x y z was happening. Right? So there's certain roles that we take on, yeah, as we grow up, and I think that they continue to, like, show up through our Enneagram types.
Aoife O'Brien [00:33:11]:
Yeah. No. It's interesting. And I think so so would it be fair to say then it's, a mix of genes, your family dynamic as you were growing up, and then the subsequent environments that you found yourself in that that further shaped your experience of the world and further shaped your opinions, your beliefs, and your behaviors, and and how you show up.
Ali Dunn [00:33:34]:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And I think when you go back and you look at your family, I encourage everyone who's listening to this podcast today to, you know, find out their type, ask their family as well-to-do the quiz as well. Because when I started to think about my family and my type, my mom and my brother are both nines, and it helped me understand why I I was like, don't they want to also be doing all the things, or what's what does that mean for me? Or, you know, why aren't they leaning in? Just a few different things, like, kind of shed light on that for me, and it helped me understand, yeah, my role and how I took that part on. Right? In a way someone had to be the driver. Right? So that ended up kinda being my role in the family, and I think that that stays with you, and then you end up putting yourselves in other environments that are the same. Yeah.
Ali Dunn [00:34:22]:
So over the past few years doing more work, I don't necessarily take on that role now, and I have obviously more acceptance for the way people are and how they interact differently. But it is just an interesting journey.
Aoife O'Brien [00:34:35]:
And I think it's interesting when you say that. So there's a couple of things that I wanted to pick up on. It's the us choosing those same environments because of how we show up in the world and how our beliefs about the world, but also the roles that we play, the role that you played in your family and and how that role you didn't necessarily choose that role. It's kind of how was thrust upon you, for want of a better word, but also digging in behind to get a better understanding because I think so many of us assume that everyone is the same, that we all have the same motivations and desires. And I know for me, on a personal level, for a long time, I was waiting for someone to say, come on, Aoife. We're going to London. London to me was considered, like, the big smoke. I was from Dublin and Ireland, but London is, like, the bigger city.
Aoife O'Brien [00:35:28]:
And I got to a stage in my mid twenties where I realized no one's coming to take me by the hand and bring me to London. If I want to do it, then I have to make that happen for myself. And so that was a really important turning point and a really important learning for me at that point. But I think, you know, getting this understanding that not everyone views everything in the same way. So if I'm reading between the lines in what you're saying, you have this big vision for how you want to see your business, but and this is so typical of entrepreneurs, I think, that other people just don't get it. They don't get that drive. They don't get what it is that you're on a mission to do. From your perspective, you're probably looking at them going, oh, they're not supporting me or they're they're not doing, they're not giving me feedback or they're not really cheering me on or whatever it might be, like the expectations that you would have and the kind of thing that you feel you would do for someone else.
Aoife O'Brien [00:36:22]:
But when we realize that everyone views things in such a different way and comes out from such a different perspective, it helps us to get over the fact that people are not behaving in the way that we might expect. And I think the Enneagram is a really great way to understand that. And I think after this conversation, I would love to try and decipher. I don't know how how on for doing a quiz my family might be, but I'd be really curious to kind of even just have a think about the the different roles that people play within my family, even within my friendship groups as well. It's it's so true.
Ali Dunn [00:36:59]:
And I, and I love the way that you've summarized, that and talking about going to London. And one of my favorite expressions that I say is no one is going to roll out the red carpet for you.
Aoife O'Brien [00:37:09]:
Yeah.
Ali Dunn [00:37:10]:
We spend a lot of our life waiting for people to see us or understand us or know what we need and that their motivations or desires are the same as ours, and it's not true. And like you, running my own business, I do think some people think I'm crazy, or some people don't understand why I do the things I do. And that feedback piece of people always telling me to slow down. Doing too much. I'm doing too many things. I now understand that that's because they're uncomfortable with that. It doesn't mean what I'm doing is wrong or bad. So it's just been really helpful that way.
Ali Dunn [00:37:42]:
So it's like I know I know when I'm doing way too much, and I will slow down, but it is just interesting that that's just not a place that everyone wants to live and respecting that other people wanna live in a different space, which is maybe, yeah, that more easygoing, harmonious space or maybe that more organized, perfectionistic space. And we're all different, and it's okay. And I think that's what it's, like, the whole self acceptance, accepting ourselves, accepting each other, and
Aoife O'Brien [00:38:07]:
I kinda think in a
Ali Dunn [00:38:07]:
way that's really what the enneagram is all about.
Aoife O'Brien [00:38:10]:
Yeah. And I think, again, bringing that back to the work context and it's understanding everyone has this different approach or a different motivation. And the one that really stuck in my mind for what you were saying is and I think it was maybe the number 8 or possibly the 3 where they're so focused on getting stuff done, and they're moving at such a pace that they're leaving other people behind. And you need to be aware of what the limitations or the challenges are of your type so that you can bring other people on that journey and get them to understand your perspective from having that understanding of your own perspective within this this framework as well, I think.
Ali Dunn [00:38:52]:
Yeah. It's so true. Because I was the the metaphor, the vision I have is, yeah, the 8 and the 3 are at the end of the race, but it's like, you need to slow down. You need to pick up the other people. You need to take a beat. You need to drink water. Right? There's a whole thing that goes into that race, and it's not just about the finish line. And so kind of opening up the possibilities and expanding that for certain types.
Ali Dunn [00:39:14]:
And then also calling on the other ones, like, it's okay to not stay in your head. It's okay to, like, get into action. Right? There's a lot of other ways that you can kind of express yourself or or step outside of your comfort zone.
Aoife O'Brien [00:39:25]:
Yeah. Love that. Love that. Ali, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?
Ali Dunn [00:39:33]:
I mean, it's so funny because my first instinct is to think of others and how they're happier at work because that's the work I do to ensure people are happy, and I alluded that at the beginning of the conversation of making sure that the culture is great and that my clients are happy. But I think for me, what what being happier at work means is is being with people who have aligned values, shared purpose, and back to the Enneagram, having freedom.
Aoife O'Brien [00:40:00]:
I just love that. And if people want to connect with you, if they want to learn more about what you do, what's the best place they can do that?
Ali Dunn [00:40:07]:
They can, head to my website, which is just alidun.com, and I would love to hear from everyone who's listening today. Brilliant. Thank you
Aoife O'Brien [00:40:16]:
so much for your time today, Ali. I absolutely love your energy. We had such an amazing conversation, and I I can't believe how quickly the time has gone. I'm like, we could probably be sitting here talking about this all day, but, in the interest of keeping it to a reasonable length, then we will end it here. But I really, really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much.
Ali Dunn [00:40:36]:
Thank you so much for having me.
