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I looked to see if there was a reference back to Proverbs 3, 5, and 6 on that.
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Because if there were a definition of leaning on your own understanding, I think this would be it.
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Welcome to God at Work, stories of calling, courage, and conviction.
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Through real stories and meaningful conversations, we'll discover how God shows up in the boardroom, the job site, and beyond.
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Here's your hosts, Gina Ventola and Adam Kemper.
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Good morning, welcome to God at Work.
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Today Gina and I were discussing a verse that's both come up in front of us.
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Romans 8 5.
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For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on things of the flesh.
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But those who live according to the spirit set their minds on things of the spirit.
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For to set your uh to for to set the mind on flesh is death, but to set the mind on spirit is life and peace.
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I know I've been looking for more peace.
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I'd love to hear uh what has been on your heart about this verse, Gina.
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Well, I'm I'm kind of stuck on the set your mind on, the phrase set your mind on, and what does that entail?
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Does that entail that I abstain from the whole world and I go live in a cave so that I can't be influenced by the world around me?
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I don't think that's what God has in mind for us because we should be examples to our community.
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But what does that look like when I say set your mind on the things of God?
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I mean, set my mind on the things of flesh.
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That's a pretty easy answer.
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Pretty much most everything that's going on in the world.
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Whether it's wars, crime, social media.
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I I I so struggle with that.
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Social media is is is just unhealthy for me, even without it feeding me bad stuff.
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I just have no self-control.
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I I struggle with that immensely, and I know that's all stuff of the flesh anyway, even if it's cat videos and comedy, it's still mindlessness and taking time from me from doing anything of value, whether it's getting stuff done or being around my family or whatever, I can do scroll my brain out.
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So I I have to limit that vector for sure.
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But I also think sometimes there's this spirit that comes with it, and you talk it, you know, it talks about the spirit, but like going out and doing things in the community or enjoying life.
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Is there a way to enjoy things of the flesh and be in the spirit?
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Like going to a concert.
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Now, is that a that's that not on its nature a sinful thing?
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How can you enjoy a concert with someone you care about deeply and do that while being in the spirit, not in the flesh?
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It's that kind of thought that I sometimes go into with this because I don't want to.
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I just am not wired to be a total deny, deny, deny kind of person.
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Like I we were built to enjoy, we were beautifully and wonderfully made to enjoy God's world.
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So, what is the balance between that and being of the flesh?
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Well, back to your cat videos, because this thought popped into my mind as you were talking about cat videos, and this audience know I am so not a cat person, so this coming from me is obviously God created cats, and I think it's it becomes where you cross the line.
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So I think you well, let me back up.
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I think you enjoying them in itself is not sin, but if you're enjoying them instead of you know serving your clients or things like that, that could get into that territory or avoiding family members or what have you, where you're kind of using it as an escape.
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And we can put a lot of things in that category, whether it's food, whether it's entertainment, whatever that looks like.
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That dopamine hit, whether it's TikTok, whether it's well, that's just that's that's kind of the heart of it.
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You how do you take something good and turn it sinful?
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Put too much behind it, put too much in into that thing, and you can turn any beautiful, glorifying thing into something sinful.
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Exactly.
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And I think it's when you forget the creator.
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I mean, I think we see it today with the new thought that creeps into our vernacular of talking about seeking the universe.
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I'm just gonna put it out to the universe and let the universe handle it, the laws of attraction.
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And I'd rather focus on the creator of the universe myself.
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Because at least then I could get an answer.
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It's like asking.
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I don't understand, yeah.
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It's like wondering how internal combustion engines work.
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So you ask a car instead of a mechanic.
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That's a very good analogy.
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I would agree.
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That's a very good analogy.
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No, I think it's great.
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Yeah, they're asking a car how it works or to to work for them instead of asking the mechanic of the universe to make the universe work for them.
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Yes, 100% agree.
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And there is a lot of that where, and and I think, you know, being that I'm a little bit more of uh, I don't know, I a person who struggles in a different place with his faith because of the world.
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Um, I think there is a certain understanding I have I give to others in that that is a line between permissive and like, do you know, what would it hurt?
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What would it do if when somebody said that?
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Like, do you mean God?
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Like, what would that question really harm when somebody says, I'm just gonna put it out to the universe?
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And I'm like, cool.
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Does that mean you're gonna ask God?
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Or what does that mean?
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Help me understand, like poke at it a little bit, but with a kind, loving heart, or do I just yes, put it out to the universe and echo their words back?
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And I think it's more the second because I understand why people are afraid to invoke God sometimes, but that's my scars, not theirs.
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So I'm telling my story through them, and it might be enabling some behavior that I could challenge in the world in a kind loving way.
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Because why don't we call it what we what it is?
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I mean, that's the tough part, is we're supposed to know his word, be able to give an answer for the hope that we have, but to do it with kindness and respect, not this.
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And that's that's the tough part.
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Right.
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You mentioned you read verse six from Romans chapter eight, and I just want to share what the amplified version says of this.
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Now, the mind of the flesh, which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit is death.
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Death that compares all miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter.
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But the mind of the Holy Spirit is life and soul peace, both now and forever.
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Sense and reason.
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That's an interesting without the Holy Spirit, yeah.
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I look to see if there was a reference back to Proverbs 3, 5, and 6 on that.
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Because if there were a definition of leaning on your own understanding, I think this would be it.
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Yeah, no, absolutely, and I think there's a big weakness that we all have in that.
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I certainly know that the better things go, the more my own brilliance seems to be the thing I think I'm leaning on.
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And then one day your brilliance doesn't work out the way you thought, and then you have to reevaluate your own perspective a little bit, and where did you drift?
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That's my experience.
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I think that I'm probably not alone.
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Well, I can tell you, I was meditating on this verse last night, this specific verse, verse six, and I got stuck on the definition of the mind of the flesh, which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit.
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And thinking about that, and since we're God at work, expanding it into our work lives, and where I mean, talk about pride and self-reliance kicks in.
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I know my job.
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I can, you know, I can walk.
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I mean, you and I attend networking events, either one of us can walk in a room and just command it and just pick whoever we want to talk to there.
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And we've we've been friends for a while, so we both know a lot of different topics that we have shared on.
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You know, that's pride, pride, pride, pride all over it.
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I mean, that's just a a small example, but just going where thinking of the mind of the flesh, which that's an interesting turn of the phrase, uh-huh, which is protected, our minds are protected, our heads are protected by the helmet of righteousness in the spiritual armor.
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And I always equated it as this you know, take the helmet of salvation because I know that I'm saved.
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But I think it goes far beyond that if you take Romans 8.6 and into mine.
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So the helmet of salvation now and reading it in context with Romans 8.6 to me can also mean I know where my help comes from, I know where my salvation comes from, and it's not what's being protected, it comes from him, it's out, it's not inward.
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Yeah, I I feel that deeply because the idea that I am wise and in, you know, you walk into some of these networking rooms and you've been talked up.
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Holy buckets, it's hard not to feel a little bit like a big deal.
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And at the same time, I feel like I live in here and I live in here, and I know that without him, I'm a mess.
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I am not what ever anybody has said when they think you talk me up.
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Because if I if you had to walk through this valley of the shadow of death, you would be like, nah, we're good.
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I met you, I'm good.
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But the spirit guides me to a better version of me because it helps me to discern my own right and wrong thoughts, my own right and wrong.
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Like, my kids have said this to me, Dad.
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I never as a kid thought you had anxiety or felt depression.
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I'm like, no, all of us do.
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We choose what we breathe life into, and I've always prayed to God when I had those things.
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God, this is not a thought that deserves any breath of life.
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Take it.
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I don't want to feel this way, I want to feel peace, I want to feel joy.
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So, why am I sad?
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Why am I depressed?
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Why am I anxious?
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Take this, and that's been an easy thing for me to just give to God because I started doing it as an immature teenager, really.
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And it's just become a practice of, well, if I give it to God, it's no longer mine, so I don't have to be anxious, so I'm just gonna act like I'm not because God told me I didn't have to be.
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And my kids looked at me and said, Dad, we never thought you were anxious all the time, kid.
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It's not about what I feel, it's about what I let you feel through me.
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Did you feel peace?
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Did you feel safety?
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They're like always.
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That's what God charged me to do in your lives as your father, is to model the father and be peace for you.
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But I have anxiety, I have depression, we all do.
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And it only gets worse when I get into that place of being so right and so smart and so all of that, and you walk into a room where they tell you you're freaking awesome.
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Slide down that slippery slope.
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Oh, oh, me?
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Oh, they're talking about me.
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Who's got two thumbs and is pretty dang awesome?
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This guy.
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Yeah, that's that when my brain does that, I'm like, I know the devil's voice now.
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That's his.
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So if it's about glorifying God, you're in a you're in a good place.
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If it's glorifying you, it's not from God.
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No, no.
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Because Satan never tells you to glorify God, and God never tells you to glorify yourself.
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So it's easy.
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Is this is this of God or is this not?
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Is a measure we all have to find our way to do, but that voice is never going to be about me if it's from God.
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Right.
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Or at least you're glorifying me.
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Right, right.
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I was reminded as we were talking about that verse.
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I want to say it's first Peter, where it says, cast your cares or anxieties on him.
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And the verb in the Greek that's actually used there, it's not like give, it's not toss, it's hurl.
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Throw those cares, hurl those cares onto him.
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And that kind of blew my mind in a way.
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I I can tell you that the the journey to really building a foundation of a relationship with God came through my son's medical challenges.
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Um, you know, having him be born healthy in eight to eight hours, his heart, lungs, liver, kidneys all fail.
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We get through that, we prayed diligently, and it went pretty fast.
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And then at 13 months, being diagnosed with a cancer that was pretty aggressive, and it took two years of chemotherapy to complete beating that.
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I yelled, I cursed, I condemned, I told him what I thought of him unfiltered because my son shouldn't have to.
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You know, how dare you?
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Boy, did I learn a lot in that, and it made me really close to God, and in it, I was so mad at so many things.
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Oh, God has a plan.
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You shut your mouth, or I'll shut it when people say, but I stand on this side of it going, Wow, did he use that horrible circumstance in so many ways?
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And the gift of perspective and the lack of me in that perspective of distance and understanding of God's work has led me to stand back and go, Oh, I you used that in some crazy wild ways.
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Thank you.
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So God did have a plan, however, I think we should, in those situations, we should take a lesson from Job's friends in the beginning.
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When all that stuff happened to Job and he was very sad and depressed, his friends sat with him and said nothing for seven days.
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Then they start opening their mouth, and that's that's where they went off the rails.
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But absolutely, I think in that moment, sometimes just sitting with someone, because we don't have all the answers, and I know that's overwhelming.
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And I catch myself saying, you know, let me know if you need anything.
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And it's like I I don't want to put that on this on someone who's struggling in that moment, but at the same time, I do want to be of use.
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To say things out of love and an inability to know what else to say.
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That is so real and it's so understandable.
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And at the same time, you're right, sitting in that quiet.
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Because my lesson had to be that in a fallen world, God doesn't cause stuff, God uses what happens to glorify his kingdom and bring people to him.
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But free will means there's a sh ton of stuff, pardon my language, that happens on this earth that we cause or that just happens because it's a fallen world.
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And how he uses that for stuff.
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So there's no blame.
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There are sometimes nothing you can be like, God, you didn't do this.
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Nobody did this, nobody did anything, so my son got sick.
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It just happens because sickness lives in a broken world, unfortunately.
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That's part of what this world has.
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And the fact that he was healed and I was lifted closer to God through his healing totally glorifies the kingdom.
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But if I just took my own understanding back to the sinful, like it goes to this, well, God caused this.
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That is so man-made because everything has to be a fault, it can't just be.
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And that is my brain, not godly logic.
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It's me using that earthly logic of it happened.
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So who's at fault?
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If God controls everything, it must be God's fault.
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So I lobbed that at God and accused him of that for a while while I went through it.
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And I lobbed so would that be sense and reason without the Holy Spirit?
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Totally.
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Because I could explain to you why it was God's fault with total sense and reason.
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I was I was a lawyer ready to indict God on that case.
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I didn't know where to go.
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Because my sense and reason worked, and it didn't.
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Because nothing was better.
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Because my kid was still sick, but God was like, But this is where you have to learn, and so that's where he used it.
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And I think you're right, and I mean it's obviously hard, and it's easy for someone who's never had to deal with that to say, you know, got brought you out on the other side.
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Look at you.
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But I do have the I think I've discussed this before on this show.
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I kind of have this analogy that I use in those times where God creates us as jewels, and jewels aren't just found glittering and bright and shiny and stuff, they're in the ground and they're covered with dirt and all kinds of rocks and stuff like that.
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And a jeweler has to remove those hard surfaces to get to the beauty.
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The flawed edges.
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The flawed edges, we are all jewels in the making, we are all jewels, and it's God using experiences and people and hardships to get us to the gleaming jewel that He's called us to be.
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And that is so much easier said than done, because when you're in the middle of that valley, as you've experienced with your son, hearing something like that's not gonna necessarily be helpful.
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They're just words, right?
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They're just words, and that's why I like and The Chosen, which we were talking about, the chosen off off camera, utilizes the psalms for lament in that beautiful scene uh episode in season three, I think it's episode eight.
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Peter and his wife were going through pain.
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And if you look through they and they reference the rabbi references Psalm 77.
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That's David or ASAP crying out to God.
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Because at the end of the day, God doesn't want performance.
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He wants a relationship.
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He wants us to.
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That's the whole thing.
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If you read the Old Testament and how the Israelites turned from him and went to false idols, and he got mad and he was upset, it boils down to that relationship was broken.
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And and in Jesus' time, the the the law became sense and reason above all heart and understanding and kindness and grace and love.
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It became a tool of separation.
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If you couldn't achieve all the highest standards of the temple and afford the journey and afford the offering, then you were less then, and you couldn't communicate with God.
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The law of Moses separating people from God.
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So there's all kinds of examples of that, too, where the logic it's sound from a perspective.
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But there's no Holy Spirit.
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That's it.
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It's it's an empty vessel.
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:45.279
So, Adam, what's a takeaway we can take and apply this mindset to our occupation, to the business world?
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:48.319
I think we said it earlier.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:57.519
I think there's a question that we need to be asking, and that is, does what I'm doing glorify me or does it glorify God?
00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:02.480
Because if it glorifies me, that is not of the spirit.
00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:05.599
If it glorifies God, it is.
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:08.720
It feels like a direct test.
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:10.720
And I hope we can all apply.
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:11.200
I don't know.
00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:12.720
What are your thoughts, Gina?
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:22.400
I was thinking, and I don't know if I ever told you this, but I actually wrote a marketing plan based upon literally what would Jesus do?
00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:28.000
What were the attributes of Jesus that I wanted to emulate in our business?
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For example, Jesus listened.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:33.039
He listened a lot more than he talked.
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:42.079
So I think that's a practical way to glorify God in the workplace is listening, active listening.
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:58.079
And education in that he always pointed back to God.
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:30.400
And so if in our businesses we can incorporate education from how we treat others, how we treat business associates, how we treat our clients, I think that's a step in the right direction of a practical application of incorporating the Holy Spirit into our work life and doing things uh to the glory of God and not to the glory of man would be a step in the right direction.
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:33.279
And audience, these are all things I need to work on.
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:35.839
So please don't think that I'm like doing this.
00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:37.680
I'm doing this actually.
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:38.240
Right.
00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:42.480
Yes, that's where I got two thumbs, and this guy needs to learn something.
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:46.400
Two thumbs and needs Jesus daily.
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:47.440
This guy.
00:25:50.000 --> 00:26:11.519
So I know this is kind of a different kind of episode, but I think these are the more intimate ones that business owners deal with in this world who want to be that light for Jesus and struggle because a lot of us bifurcate our lives.
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:16.400
In this section, on Sundays, I go to church and this is when I read the Bible and study that.
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:29.279
And on Monday through Friday, this is when I go to work and hate my boss, and I have to do all this kind of stuff, but I don't think about what I just learned on Sunday during the week.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:38.240
And then Saturday's the day I go play golf or whatever, but I'm not focused on how I best served my clients that week.
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:40.079
Did I reflect God?
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:46.720
I mean, we're we're really good at that, compartmentalizing our life.
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:53.039
And the reality is it should be interwoven together.
00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:54.319
Absolutely.
00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:00.319
So, Adam, as we close, would you like to pray us out?
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:02.160
Absolutely.
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:05.680
Heavenly Father, thank you for this time.
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:11.680
Thank you for whoever's ears and heart this conversation reaches to glorify you, not us.
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:32.880
And help all of us, Gina, myself, anyone out there hearing this to find ways to interweave your glorification, your word, your spirit into our daily business so that we don't lean on our own understanding and think that our wisdom is supreme to yours.
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:41.359
Guide us, lead us, speak to us so that we may know the right choices in our business.
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:43.519
Glory to God.
00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:44.400
Amen.
00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:54.319
This is God at Work, reminding you to lead with faith, serve with purpose, and live out your calling.
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:59.359
Until we meet again, keep walking boldly in your faith at work and beyond.
00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:03.920
Remember your business is your ministry.
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:05.759
I looked to see if there was a reference back to Proverbs 3, 5, and 6 on that.
00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:13.279
Because if there were a definition of leaning on your own understanding, I think this would be it.
00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:19.920
Welcome to God at Work, stories of calling, courage, and conviction.
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Through real stories and meaningful conversations, we'll discover how God shows up in the boardroom, the job site, and beyond.
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Here's your hosts, Gina Ventola and Adam Kemper.
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Good morning, welcome to God at Work.
00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:46.799
Today Gina and I were discussing a verse that's both come up in front of us.
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Romans 8 5.
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For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on things of the flesh.
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But those who live according to the spirit set their minds on things of the spirit.
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For to set your uh to for to set the mind on flesh is death, but to set the mind on spirit is life and peace.
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I know I've been looking for more peace.
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I'd love to hear uh what has been on your heart about this verse, Gina.
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Well, I'm I'm kind of stuck on the set your mind on, the phrase set your mind on, and what does that entail?
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Does that entail that I abstain from the whole world and I go live in a cave so that I can't be influenced by the world around me?
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I don't think that's what God has in mind for us because we should be examples to our community.
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But what does that look like when I say set your mind on the things of God?
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I mean, set my mind on the things of flesh.
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That's a pretty easy answer.
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Pretty much most everything that's going on in the world.
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Whether it's wars, crime, social media.
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I I I so struggle with that.
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Social media is is is just unhealthy for me, even without it feeding me bad stuff.
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I just have no self-control.
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I I struggle with that immensely, and I know that's all stuff of the flesh anyway, even if it's cat videos and comedy, it's still mindlessness and taking time from me from doing anything of value, whether it's getting stuff done or being around my family or whatever, I can do scroll my brain out.
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So I I have to limit that vector for sure.
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But I also think sometimes there's this spirit that comes with it, and you talk it, you know, it talks about the spirit, but like going out and doing things in the community or enjoying life.
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Is there a way to enjoy things of the flesh and be in the spirit?
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Like going to a concert.
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Now, is that a that's that not on its nature a sinful thing?
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How can you enjoy a concert with someone you care about deeply and do that while being in the spirit, not in the flesh?
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It's that kind of thought that I sometimes go into with this because I don't want to.
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I just am not wired to be a total deny, deny, deny kind of person.
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Like I we were built to enjoy, we were beautifully and wonderfully made to enjoy God's world.
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So, what is the balance between that and being of the flesh?
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Well, back to your cat videos, because this thought popped into my mind as you were talking about cat videos, and this audience know I am so not a cat person, so this coming from me is obviously God created cats, and I think it's it becomes where you cross the line.
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So I think you well, let me back up.
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I think you enjoying them in itself is not sin, but if you're enjoying them instead of you know serving your clients or things like that, that could get into that territory or avoiding family members or what have you, where you're kind of using it as an escape.
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And we can put a lot of things in that category, whether it's food, whether it's entertainment, whatever that looks like.
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That dopamine hit, whether it's TikTok, whether it's well, that's just that's that's kind of the heart of it.
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You how do you take something good and turn it sinful?
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Put too much behind it, put too much in into that thing, and you can turn any beautiful, glorifying thing into something sinful.
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Exactly.
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And I think it's when you forget the creator.
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I mean, I think we see it today with the new thought that creeps into our vernacular of talking about seeking the universe.
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I'm just gonna put it out to the universe and let the universe handle it, the laws of attraction.
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And I'd rather focus on the creator of the universe myself.
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Because at least then I could get an answer.
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It's like asking.
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I don't understand, yeah.
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It's like wondering how internal combustion engines work.
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So you ask a car instead of a mechanic.
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That's a very good analogy.
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I would agree.
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That's a very good analogy.
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No, I think it's great.
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Yeah, they're asking a car how it works or to to work for them instead of asking the mechanic of the universe to make the universe work for them.
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Yes, 100% agree.
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And there is a lot of that where, and and I think, you know, being that I'm a little bit more of uh, I don't know, I a person who struggles in a different place with his faith because of the world.
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Um, I think there is a certain understanding I have I give to others in that that is a line between permissive and like, do you know, what would it hurt?
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What would it do if when somebody said that?
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Like, do you mean God?
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Like, what would that question really harm when somebody says, I'm just gonna put it out to the universe?
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And I'm like, cool.
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Does that mean you're gonna ask God?
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Or what does that mean?
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Help me understand, like poke at it a little bit, but with a kind, loving heart, or do I just yes, put it out to the universe and echo their words back?
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And I think it's more the second because I understand why people are afraid to invoke God sometimes, but that's my scars, not theirs.
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So I'm telling my story through them, and it might be enabling some behavior that I could challenge in the world in a kind loving way.
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Because why don't we call it what we what it is?
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I mean, that's the tough part, is we're supposed to know his word, be able to give an answer for the hope that we have, but to do it with kindness and respect, not this.
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And that's that's the tough part.
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Right.
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You mentioned you read verse six from Romans chapter eight, and I just want to share what the amplified version says of this.
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Now, the mind of the flesh, which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit is death.
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Death that compares all miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter.
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But the mind of the Holy Spirit is life and soul peace, both now and forever.
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Sense and reason.
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That's an interesting without the Holy Spirit, yeah.
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I look to see if there was a reference back to Proverbs 3, 5, and 6 on that.
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Because if there were a definition of leaning on your own understanding, I think this would be it.
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Yeah, no, absolutely, and I think there's a big weakness that we all have in that.
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I certainly know that the better things go, the more my own brilliance seems to be the thing I think I'm leaning on.
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And then one day your brilliance doesn't work out the way you thought, and then you have to reevaluate your own perspective a little bit, and where did you drift?
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That's my experience.
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I think that I'm probably not alone.
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Well, I can tell you, I was meditating on this verse last night, this specific verse, verse six, and I got stuck on the definition of the mind of the flesh, which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit.
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And thinking about that, and since we're God at work, expanding it into our work lives, and where I mean, talk about pride and self-reliance kicks in.
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I know my job.
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I can, you know, I can walk.
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I mean, you and I attend networking events, either one of us can walk in a room and just command it and just pick whoever we want to talk to there.
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And we've we've been friends for a while, so we both know a lot of different topics that we have shared on.
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You know, that's pride, pride, pride, pride all over it.
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I mean, that's just a a small example, but just going where thinking of the mind of the flesh, which that's an interesting turn of the phrase, uh-huh, which is protected, our minds are protected, our heads are protected by the helmet of righteousness in the spiritual armor.
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And I always equated it as this you know, take the helmet of salvation because I know that I'm saved.
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But I think it goes far beyond that if you take Romans 8.6 and into mine.
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So the helmet of salvation now and reading it in context with Romans 8.6 to me can also mean I know where my help comes from, I know where my salvation comes from, and it's not what's being protected, it comes from him, it's out, it's not inward.
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Yeah, I I feel that deeply because the idea that I am wise and in, you know, you walk into some of these networking rooms and you've been talked up.
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Holy buckets, it's hard not to feel a little bit like a big deal.
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And at the same time, I feel like I live in here and I live in here, and I know that without him, I'm a mess.
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I am not what ever anybody has said when they think you talk me up.
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Because if I if you had to walk through this valley of the shadow of death, you would be like, nah, we're good.
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I met you, I'm good.
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But the spirit guides me to a better version of me because it helps me to discern my own right and wrong thoughts, my own right and wrong.
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Like, my kids have said this to me, Dad.
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I never as a kid thought you had anxiety or felt depression.
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I'm like, no, all of us do.
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We choose what we breathe life into, and I've always prayed to God when I had those things.
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God, this is not a thought that deserves any breath of life.
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Take it.
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I don't want to feel this way, I want to feel peace, I want to feel joy.
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So, why am I sad?
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Why am I depressed?
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Why am I anxious?
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Take this, and that's been an easy thing for me to just give to God because I started doing it as an immature teenager, really.
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And it's just become a practice of, well, if I give it to God, it's no longer mine, so I don't have to be anxious, so I'm just gonna act like I'm not because God told me I didn't have to be.
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And my kids looked at me and said, Dad, we never thought you were anxious all the time, kid.
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It's not about what I feel, it's about what I let you feel through me.
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Did you feel peace?
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Did you feel safety?
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They're like always.
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That's what God charged me to do in your lives as your father, is to model the father and be peace for you.
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But I have anxiety, I have depression, we all do.
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And it only gets worse when I get into that place of being so right and so smart and so all of that, and you walk into a room where they tell you you're freaking awesome.
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Slide down that slippery slope.
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Oh, oh, me?
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Oh, they're talking about me.
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Who's got two thumbs and is pretty dang awesome?
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This guy.
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Yeah, that's that when my brain does that, I'm like, I know the devil's voice now.
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That's his.
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So if it's about glorifying God, you're in a you're in a good place.
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If it's glorifying you, it's not from God.
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No, no.
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Because Satan never tells you to glorify God, and God never tells you to glorify yourself.
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So it's easy.
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Is this is this of God or is this not?
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Is a measure we all have to find our way to do, but that voice is never going to be about me if it's from God.
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:37.600
Right.
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Or at least you're glorifying me.
00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:42.559
Right, right.
00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:46.000
I was reminded as we were talking about that verse.
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I want to say it's first Peter, where it says, cast your cares or anxieties on him.
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And the verb in the Greek that's actually used there, it's not like give, it's not toss, it's hurl.
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Throw those cares, hurl those cares onto him.
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And that kind of blew my mind in a way.
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I I can tell you that the the journey to really building a foundation of a relationship with God came through my son's medical challenges.
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Um, you know, having him be born healthy in eight to eight hours, his heart, lungs, liver, kidneys all fail.
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We get through that, we prayed diligently, and it went pretty fast.
00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:46.799
And then at 13 months, being diagnosed with a cancer that was pretty aggressive, and it took two years of chemotherapy to complete beating that.
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I yelled, I cursed, I condemned, I told him what I thought of him unfiltered because my son shouldn't have to.
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You know, how dare you?
00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:07.519
Boy, did I learn a lot in that, and it made me really close to God, and in it, I was so mad at so many things.
00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:08.960
Oh, God has a plan.
00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:20.399
You shut your mouth, or I'll shut it when people say, but I stand on this side of it going, Wow, did he use that horrible circumstance in so many ways?
00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:38.480
And the gift of perspective and the lack of me in that perspective of distance and understanding of God's work has led me to stand back and go, Oh, I you used that in some crazy wild ways.
00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:39.840
Thank you.
00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:52.320
So God did have a plan, however, I think we should, in those situations, we should take a lesson from Job's friends in the beginning.
00:16:53.039 --> 00:17:03.919
When all that stuff happened to Job and he was very sad and depressed, his friends sat with him and said nothing for seven days.
00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:10.000
Then they start opening their mouth, and that's that's where they went off the rails.
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:19.680
But absolutely, I think in that moment, sometimes just sitting with someone, because we don't have all the answers, and I know that's overwhelming.
00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:24.319
And I catch myself saying, you know, let me know if you need anything.
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And it's like I I don't want to put that on this on someone who's struggling in that moment, but at the same time, I do want to be of use.
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To say things out of love and an inability to know what else to say.
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That is so real and it's so understandable.
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And at the same time, you're right, sitting in that quiet.
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Because my lesson had to be that in a fallen world, God doesn't cause stuff, God uses what happens to glorify his kingdom and bring people to him.
00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:11.920
But free will means there's a sh ton of stuff, pardon my language, that happens on this earth that we cause or that just happens because it's a fallen world.
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And how he uses that for stuff.
00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:16.720
So there's no blame.
00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:21.599
There are sometimes nothing you can be like, God, you didn't do this.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:25.759
Nobody did this, nobody did anything, so my son got sick.
00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:31.599
It just happens because sickness lives in a broken world, unfortunately.
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That's part of what this world has.
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:41.680
And the fact that he was healed and I was lifted closer to God through his healing totally glorifies the kingdom.
00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:50.160
But if I just took my own understanding back to the sinful, like it goes to this, well, God caused this.
00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:55.680
That is so man-made because everything has to be a fault, it can't just be.
00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:59.680
And that is my brain, not godly logic.
00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:02.960
It's me using that earthly logic of it happened.
00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:04.079
So who's at fault?
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:07.519
If God controls everything, it must be God's fault.
00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:14.799
So I lobbed that at God and accused him of that for a while while I went through it.
00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:21.119
And I lobbed so would that be sense and reason without the Holy Spirit?
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:21.920
Totally.
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:27.519
Because I could explain to you why it was God's fault with total sense and reason.
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:31.920
I was I was a lawyer ready to indict God on that case.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:44.880
I didn't know where to go.
00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:48.720
Because my sense and reason worked, and it didn't.
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:51.200
Because nothing was better.
00:19:52.880 --> 00:20:02.480
Because my kid was still sick, but God was like, But this is where you have to learn, and so that's where he used it.
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:14.000
And I think you're right, and I mean it's obviously hard, and it's easy for someone who's never had to deal with that to say, you know, got brought you out on the other side.
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:15.039
Look at you.
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:21.920
But I do have the I think I've discussed this before on this show.
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:46.799
I kind of have this analogy that I use in those times where God creates us as jewels, and jewels aren't just found glittering and bright and shiny and stuff, they're in the ground and they're covered with dirt and all kinds of rocks and stuff like that.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:55.599
And a jeweler has to remove those hard surfaces to get to the beauty.
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The flawed edges.
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The flawed edges, we are all jewels in the making, we are all jewels, and it's God using experiences and people and hardships to get us to the gleaming jewel that He's called us to be.
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:33.359
And that is so much easier said than done, because when you're in the middle of that valley, as you've experienced with your son, hearing something like that's not gonna necessarily be helpful.
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:37.680
They're just words, right?
00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:56.880
They're just words, and that's why I like and The Chosen, which we were talking about, the chosen off off camera, utilizes the psalms for lament in that beautiful scene uh episode in season three, I think it's episode eight.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.480
Peter and his wife were going through pain.
00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:11.039
And if you look through they and they reference the rabbi references Psalm 77.
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:18.559
That's David or ASAP crying out to God.
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:24.720
Because at the end of the day, God doesn't want performance.
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:26.640
He wants a relationship.
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:30.079
He wants us to.
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:31.039
That's the whole thing.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:43.680
If you read the Old Testament and how the Israelites turned from him and went to false idols, and he got mad and he was upset, it boils down to that relationship was broken.
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:55.920
And and in Jesus' time, the the the law became sense and reason above all heart and understanding and kindness and grace and love.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:00.559
It became a tool of separation.
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:13.359
If you couldn't achieve all the highest standards of the temple and afford the journey and afford the offering, then you were less then, and you couldn't communicate with God.
00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:18.000
The law of Moses separating people from God.
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:26.799
So there's all kinds of examples of that, too, where the logic it's sound from a perspective.
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:29.039
But there's no Holy Spirit.
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:30.480
That's it.
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:34.000
It's it's an empty vessel.
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:45.279
So, Adam, what's a takeaway we can take and apply this mindset to our occupation, to the business world?
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:48.319
I think we said it earlier.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:57.519
I think there's a question that we need to be asking, and that is, does what I'm doing glorify me or does it glorify God?
00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:02.480
Because if it glorifies me, that is not of the spirit.
00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:05.599
If it glorifies God, it is.
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:08.720
It feels like a direct test.
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:10.720
And I hope we can all apply.
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:11.200
I don't know.
00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:12.720
What are your thoughts, Gina?
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:22.400
I was thinking, and I don't know if I ever told you this, but I actually wrote a marketing plan based upon literally what would Jesus do?
00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:28.000
What were the attributes of Jesus that I wanted to emulate in our business?
00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:30.480
For example, Jesus listened.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:33.039
He listened a lot more than he talked.
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:42.079
So I think that's a practical way to glorify God in the workplace is listening, active listening.
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:58.079
And education in that he always pointed back to God.
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:30.400
And so if in our businesses we can incorporate education from how we treat others, how we treat business associates, how we treat our clients, I think that's a step in the right direction of a practical application of incorporating the Holy Spirit into our work life and doing things uh to the glory of God and not to the glory of man would be a step in the right direction.
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:33.279
And audience, these are all things I need to work on.
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:35.839
So please don't think that I'm like doing this.
00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:37.680
I'm doing this actually.
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:38.240
Right.
00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:42.480
Yes, that's where I got two thumbs, and this guy needs to learn something.
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:46.400
Two thumbs and needs Jesus daily.
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:47.440
This guy.
00:25:50.000 --> 00:26:11.519
So I know this is kind of a different kind of episode, but I think these are the more intimate ones that business owners deal with in this world who want to be that light for Jesus and struggle because a lot of us bifurcate our lives.
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:16.400
In this section, on Sundays, I go to church and this is when I read the Bible and study that.
00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:29.279
And on Monday through Friday, this is when I go to work and hate my boss, and I have to do all this kind of stuff, but I don't think about what I just learned on Sunday during the week.
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:38.240
And then Saturday's the day I go play golf or whatever, but I'm not focused on how I best served my clients that week.
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:40.079
Did I reflect God?
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:46.720
I mean, we're we're really good at that, compartmentalizing our life.
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:53.039
And the reality is it should be interwoven together.
00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:54.319
Absolutely.
00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:00.319
So, Adam, as we close, would you like to pray us out?
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:02.160
Absolutely.
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:05.680
Heavenly Father, thank you for this time.
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:11.680
Thank you for whoever's ears and heart this conversation reaches to glorify you, not us.
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:32.880
And help all of us, Gina, myself, anyone out there hearing this to find ways to interweave your glorification, your word, your spirit into our daily business so that we don't lean on our own understanding and think that our wisdom is supreme to yours.
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:41.359
Guide us, lead us, speak to us so that we may know the right choices in our business.
00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:43.519
Glory to God.
00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:44.400
Amen.
00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:54.319
This is God at Work, reminding you to lead with faith, serve with purpose, and live out your calling.
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:59.359
Until we meet again, keep walking boldly in your faith at work and beyond.
00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:03.920
Remember your business is your ministry.
