Engaging First Nations Communities: What Every Organisation Needs to Know

WEBVTT
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:06.639
Get Real is recorded on the unceded lands of the Boonerong and Warunjury peoples of the Kulin Nation.
00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:11.199
We acknowledge and pay our respects to their elders, past and present.
00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:19.519
We also acknowledge that the first peoples of Australia are the first storytellers, the first artists and the first creators of culture.
00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:24.640
And we celebrate their enduring connections to country, knowledge and stories.
00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:32.880
Welcome to Get Real Talking Mental Health and Disability.
00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:42.719
I'm Emily Webb, and I'm recording from Dandinong South in Southeast Melbourne on the traditional lands of the Bunwarong people of the Kulin Nation.
00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:50.320
Across Australia, conversations about reconciliation, cultural awareness, and genuine partnership are growing.
00:00:50.479 --> 00:00:55.840
Yet many organisations are still grappling with what that actually looks like in practice.
00:00:56.159 --> 00:01:05.760
Anyone who works in community services knows cultural safety is an expectation of programme delivery, workforce training, and overall excellent practice.
00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:07.680
But what does this really mean?
00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:21.200
How do non-Indigenous organizations move beyond good intentions in a way that is meaningful and respectful of cultural protocols and lived-and-living experience, not tokenistic, transactional, or even harmful?
00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:41.280
In this episode, we're joined by Aboriginal leader, artist, and author Shannon Best to talk about his excellent book, Indigenous Rules of Engagement, which is a practical guide that offers clear grounded pathways for engaging with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples in ways that honour culture, history, and spirit.
00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:42.480
I've read this book.
00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:44.239
It's a must-read, in my opinion.
00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:49.760
Shannon, congratulations on Indigenous Rules of Engagement and thank you for joining me.
00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:54.239
Thank you very much for having me and thank you for reading the book.
00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:58.879
So before we get into our conversation, my intro really doesn't do you justice.
00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:02.719
So could you tell our listeners a bit more about who you are?
00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:03.920
Yes.
00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:09.840
So I am a Cumbameri and Munanjali man from the Gilgambeer language area.
00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:11.680
What does that mean geographically?
00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:17.919
I'm born and raised on the Gulf Coast, and both my maternal grandparents were indigenous.
00:02:18.159 --> 00:02:25.280
So my grandfather, Stanley Uke, was born out at Christmas Creek, which is Munanjali, Bow Desert area.
00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:30.400
And my grandmother, Edith Graham, was born on the Gulf Coast.
00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:32.319
So to Jenny Graham.
00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:39.840
And Jenny Graham is the apical ancestor in this area that everybody sort of links native title to and all the families.
00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:49.919
And is one of her and her siblings were the last ones in our lineage to be ceremoniously initiated into the tribe with actual tribal scarrings.
00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:51.759
And that was done on South Stradbroke.
00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:55.599
So it wasn't South Stradbroke at the time, it was one Stradbroke.
00:02:55.759 --> 00:02:58.560
And about me, yeah, look, I have a quite a broad career.
00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:04.479
Started off as a sporting athlete for many decades, traveled the world through that.
00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:10.400
I started many businesses, and then I've just sort of wound myself back up and came back home.
00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:14.080
And I've been here for the better part of half a decade now.
00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:21.280
And my family have been involved in the indigenous space for many, obviously many generations.
00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:30.159
But through government, state, local, and indigenous organizations, we've been in this space for many, many decades.
00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:41.039
I come from a long line of people who were incredibly educated, wrote books, you know, given lectures and everything in this sort of barrier in the space.
00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:42.319
So yeah, I can't help there.
00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:42.800
I can't.
00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:44.960
I'm sort of standing on the shoulders of giants.
00:03:45.199 --> 00:04:01.520
And then recently coming back and then spending time in government, that's what pretty much inspired me to start this book and the process and what turned out to be sort of I had some time off over the Christmas period and went, right, I'm going to try and write a book.
00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:07.439
I think that's what most people my age having a midlife crisis sort of do, either buy a sports car or write a book.
00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:09.599
So I can't afford a sports car off the book.
00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:10.960
So the book came about.
00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:15.199
And, you know, within the first couple of days, I was like, great, I'm just going to bang this out.
00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:16.720
Two weeks, it'll be all done.
00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:18.079
I'll self-publish it.
00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:23.279
Three years later, it's finally been published by Big Sky Publishing through Simon and Schuster.
00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:28.000
So yeah, it was quite a long process and quite a long journey for myself.
00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:39.040
And what I knew when I first started it to how my approach and what my perception is of the topic that I talk on has completely changed as well.
00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:39.920
Yeah.
00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:42.240
Well, it's it is a great book.
00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:46.000
I'm going to say that a fair bit actually, because it I really enjoyed it.
00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:47.759
It it's very accessible.
00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:57.199
And this book is primarily aimed to help non-Indigenous people and organizations to understand engagement with indigenous groups.
00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:03.519
And I like that even though the word rules is in the title, you do explain early on that the content is more a navigation tool.
00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:08.399
And I love how you've structured the content, you frame it as the journey readers will go on.
00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:22.879
So there's some fundamentals you explained early up, including nothing about us without us, and that's something that we say a lot about in the mental health, health, and disability service provision world, because it's all about lived and living experience and co-design.
00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:25.680
And respect begins with understanding.
00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:35.439
So I guess what are some of the common misunderstandings and missteps that non-Indigenous organizations have about First Nations engagement?
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:43.279
So with that question there, I'd probably break it down for the listeners into sort of the three major mistakes.
00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:46.800
And that would be engagement starts too late.
00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:52.560
You know, ideas, then budgets, schedules, timelines.
00:05:53.439 --> 00:06:05.439
Then they do the project, whatever it happened to be, and then they approach the Aboriginal people, you know, and then at that point it's not really engagement, it's that's more of an endorsement, you know.
00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:07.920
So that's sort of one, two.
00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:18.319
Most people don't actually work out who they actually should be speaking to in regards to what they are trying, what what the outcomes.
00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:32.160
So it's really being able to with this book was help people identify the key stakeholders who they should be engaging with, and understanding that Aboriginal organizations have different roles and responsibilities as well.
00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:38.160
You know, country matters, community structures matter, you know, traditional owners matter.
00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:45.279
And then three, basically confusing engagement with activities.
00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:48.879
A meeting is not an necessarily engagement.
00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:54.160
Rap, a reconciliation action plan, is I see it all the time.
00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:55.680
That's not engagement either.
00:06:55.920 --> 00:07:02.879
Acknowledgements isn't as important as I think some of those are at the at the correct moments, aren't engagement.
00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:13.439
One of the simplest questions I asked organizations like the other organizations that I'm involved with, especially after the end of projects and that, I go, well, what what actually changed?
00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:15.680
What actually changed with your group?
00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:19.439
You know, what were the outcomes and what actually changed through the process?
00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:25.199
And if they don't answer it, then obviously an engagement, real proper engagement, really actually didn't occur then.
00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:26.800
Thank you for that.
00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:32.399
This conversation is one that we need to have, and I think people need to hear.
00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:41.120
The book has several chapters that are just really clearly identified, and the subject matter is really good to dive into.
00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:56.000
And the chapter on understanding country with a capital C, I found so helpful because I think that this is something that many, many non-Indigenous Australians don't actually understand or only have a surface level understanding.
00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:59.759
I'll include myself in this in recent times.
00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:13.360
I'm learning a lot more, but there's also the very unfortunate and nasty kind of rhetoric that is going on with the weaponization of acknowledgments of country, welcome to country, where people are like, I don't need to be welcome to my country.
00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:17.360
I mean, that is just willful misunderstanding.
00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:20.399
You might have an opinion on that, I'm sure you do.
00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:24.959
Yeah, we all have opinions on that about in our families and groups and networks, yeah.
00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:33.039
Yeah, and I don't want to bring up anything that might be like, oh, I don't want to answer that, but I just think that's what you see, and you just think, oh my God, like seriously.
00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:36.080
But you explain that country is more than a place.
00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:38.480
And your subheadings in the book are great.
00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:41.279
Like, country is not a backdrop, it's a stakeholder.
00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:43.919
Could you explain a little bit more about this?
00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:48.480
Yeah, so people think of country.
00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:55.120
And look, we do have leaders within our society, such as this, you know, the Australian Institute of Architecture now.
00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:59.279
And architects have always been leaders throughout societies.
00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:08.480
Architects have really been sort of at the forefront of helping guide, you know, and shape what our society sort of looks like figuratively and literally, you know.
00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:13.360
And when they say country, they can think geographically, you know what I mean?
00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:16.000
But it's like country is is more than that.
00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:33.919
You know, it's cultural heritage, it's stories, it's language, waterways, landscapes, plants, animals, historic events, cultural obligations, you know, and the people that are connected to it through all of that that hold the knowledge and the responsibility for their areas in their country.
00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:42.320
And something I've been pondering since I've read the book, and I'm not just pondering one thing, I'll add, it's what you write about connecting country to practice.
00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:53.519
So whatever that kind of project or work or thing that people do that they need to be engaging on and need to be considerate of all the things.
00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:59.200
And you wrote, avoid token gestures, acknowledging country at the start of a meeting is not enough.
00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:02.080
Ask what country requires of your project.
00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:06.000
And, you know, we know, like, yes, we do acknowledgements at the start of meetings.
00:10:06.159 --> 00:10:11.200
I did one at the start of my intro, but is there an example that you could tell me about what you mean?
00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:13.679
Because actually, that really hit me that when I read that.
00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:16.399
I was like, oh, I found that really fascinating.
00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:18.720
I've got a couple of examples.
00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:24.480
I've been using this one quite recently in a couple of talks and things.
00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:30.720
Yet again, we just I just did this presentation with the Australian Institute of Architecture, actually down in Melbourne.
00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:33.519
So with their PALS program with their students.
00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:46.960
What it was was it was just a it was a project initiated by the council, the mayor, Tom Tate of the City of Gold Coast, and basically doing HODA, which is home of the arts.
00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:52.960
They've done their stage one, they've done their stage two, and now they're looking to develop out their stage three.
00:10:53.360 --> 00:11:07.440
The land that they happen to be doing it on holds incredible significance for our community, both all the oral histories and stories connected because it's it's wrapped around the peninsula of the Narang River.
00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:13.519
The Narang River actually encompasses a large area of Hoda Home of the Arts.
00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:17.840
And we have a lot of stuff connected around that.
00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:21.919
It's also an area, a contemporary area, which we've been gathering at.
00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:37.120
My mother and the rest of her family members have been using that as a contemporary gathering space as well for very large announcements, and that we've sort of been documenting that over the past since the late 70s.
00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:48.080
As this process started rolling out, what really made this project different was the ARM architecture actually reached out with HODA and all the other key stakeholders.
00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:56.559
So it was obviously all these different elements and departments were involved in it, investment, Gold Coast investment team, and you know, the other teams.
00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:00.879
And they actually reached out and they engaged first with the Indigenous people.
00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:04.639
And it was sort of like their approach was well, what belongs here?
00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:07.039
What Aboriginal thing can we put here?
00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:09.200
And they didn't sort of come with that approach.
00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:17.279
The the difference is they engaged first and foremost, and that helped shape the entire project.
00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:29.600
And instead of it being just an engagement and just ticking the boxes, the community actually, because they were brought through the whole process and they had input into everything, because it is home of the arts of arts and culture.
00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:31.840
So that's why it is very relevant to this project.
00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:40.559
You know, you necessarily wouldn't use this for all projects or all buildings and that, but this one is arts and culture, so it is quite significant.
00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:50.720
And basically, the traditional owners and all the First Nations people that were actually engaged in this were brought along the entire journey.
00:12:50.879 --> 00:13:00.879
And yet again, I do give props to the people that were sort of leading this, which is ARM architecture on Arab, and created ambassadors.
00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:13.600
You know, the traditional owners became these advocates for this project, and and they could see, you know, the benefits of it for the community, not necessarily just for the First Nations community, but for the broader community as well.
00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:15.840
It's very important for us.
00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:26.240
And what was it instilled to in within our family and sort of our broader organizations in that as well, is to protect, preserve, and the continuation of our culture.
00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:27.440
And how do we do that?
00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:40.159
Well, we do that by implementing, you know, not just naming a room or naming a street or throwing up some Aboriginal art, you know, those are sort of afterthoughts, you know, and can be very tokenistic.
00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:56.399
You know, when when something is done and shaped correctly, the right way, you actually don't see it, you know, until you actually look or even scratch the surface, and then you find there's such depth into the thought and the idea and the design because they were given a lot of information.
00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:59.519
Yeah, the whole team actually spent quite a lot of time.
00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:06.559
There was a lot of stories, a lot of information, a lot of history attached to this whole sort of area.
00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:13.279
So they were able to really compile all of that along with the engagement process with the communities and that too.
00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:15.840
So yeah, so I use that example quite a lot.
00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:17.600
I have been using that recently.
00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:32.480
Yeah, and it is really a great example of good cohesion between local, state, federal government and all the stakeholders and all the teams and development teams because everybody learned as well during that process as well.
00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:34.000
Yeah, it was good.
00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:42.960
Cultural competency and you know, or responsiveness is something that is required of non-Indigenous organizations.
00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:48.480
And I'll use the example of not-for-profit community service providers.
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:58.559
The services they provide are funded often by state government, federal government, whether it's orgs that do mental health services or disability support, homelessness services, childcare.
00:14:58.639 --> 00:14:59.919
That's a few examples.
00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:00.960
There's more.
00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:37.200
This is an aspect of service delivery that we talk a lot about, you know, in this world when we're looking at our programs, when we're going for tenders, you know, about the relationship building, interactions that different teams have with Aboriginal controlled community organizations or leaders in the community or different people who are seen as go-to people, governments, whether it's federal, state territory or local, they want to see that you've got the cultural safety and service delivery that you can evidence it when they commission services or programs.
00:15:37.440 --> 00:16:05.679
But then there's the reality of what happens on the ground that organizations, and I'm talking about just broadly, like I'm not zeroing in on anyone, but but it feels to me that this can often put organizations in a place where they are putting what is termed cultural load on Indigenous organizations or you know, relationships and their staff in the quest to meet this and then they do more harm.
00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:07.919
Like, can I get your thoughts on that?
00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:10.720
You cover this in the book a bit, yeah, for sure.
00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:12.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:17.200
So government absolutely should expect culturally safe services, you know.
00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:33.039
The problem occurs when the responsibility for achieving this that gets outsourced back to the Aboriginal sort of people, you know, an organization receives funding to deliver the services, then an Aboriginal organization gets approached.
00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:36.559
And then from there, it's can you sit on our committee?
00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:38.159
Can you review this?
00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:40.559
Can you introduce this to your community?
00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:42.159
Can you check our rap?
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:44.639
Can you come and speak to our staff?
00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:52.720
And, you know, often without proper adequate resourcing, that's where they get culturally overloaded, you know.
00:16:52.960 --> 00:17:03.919
And look, with government procurement, whether Fed, state, or local should be asking more sophisticated questions, not just simply do you have a rabbit?
00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:06.640
Who are your relationships with?
00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:09.920
You know, how long have those relationships existed?
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:13.920
How are the Aboriginal organizations being compensated?
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:18.480
How did the First Nations engagement change your services?
00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:20.960
Who holds the decision-making authority?
00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:24.799
How are you measuring cultural safety?
00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:28.400
You know, what happens when the community disagrees with you?
00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:31.039
You know, and I I see all this all the time.
00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:38.160
So cultural responsibility, this, you know, it can't simply be subcontracted back to the Aboriginal people, you know.
00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:48.400
Yeah, I think it's a really big and important thing for every non-indigenous organization or like all of us to consider.
00:17:48.720 --> 00:18:05.759
So what would you say to leaders in all sorts of industry and business and organizations who believe that cultural safety is simply about staff attending cultural awareness training or doing an internal event for reconciliation or NADOC week?
00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:08.799
You did touch on this a bit earlier, which I thought was really interesting.
00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:09.519
Yeah.
00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:18.000
Look, the training is just a tool, cultural safety is an outcome.
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:32.640
So, you know, you can send every employee through cultural awareness training tomorrow, and that doesn't automatically change procurement, recruitment, governance, service delivery, consultation, project design, right?
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:35.039
You know, the whole list goes decision making, you know.
00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:45.680
So if the organization has to translate the knowledge into behavior and systems, NADOC Week, don't get me wrong, incredibly valuable.
00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:50.799
Reconciliation activities, incredibly valuable as well.
00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:54.240
And acknowledgements, too, valuable, yep.
00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:59.279
But none of these, you know, really substitute for actual relationships.
00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:06.240
Cultural awareness is what you know, cultural safety is what people experience when they interact with your organization.
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:10.799
I think this goes then higher than just the leaders.
00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:19.279
It goes to like boards, because you know, boards make big decisions about organizations and their direction, their vision, their mission.
00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:35.200
So, what questions should board members be asking and reflecting on about cultural safety, competency, being truly meaningful about that and about First Nations engagement for the organizations that they represent?
00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:37.039
Like, do you see enough of this?
00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:39.440
Like, what's happening in this board space?
00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:44.000
If I was sitting in a boardroom, well, you know, and sometimes actually I do ask these questions.
00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:52.720
So for everybody out there, I would probably just start with who are the traditional owners of the country we're operating on?
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:54.000
Okay, great.
00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:57.920
You know, not generically First Nations people.
00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:10.000
There is enough research and information out there on Australia to know what language areas, what tribal areas, what family names, what historical, who are the traditional owners?
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:15.599
Where are the First Nations people involved in our decision making as an organization?
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:21.519
What changed in our organization because of those relationships?
00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:32.079
And if I asked the local Aboriginal community whether we're culturally safe, would their answers match the organizations that I was sitting on the board of?
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:35.599
I think that's the big that would be the biggest one, you know?
00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:42.160
You have worked with many organizations and governments and you consult.
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:43.920
And I mean, what's the breadth?
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:50.240
I guess you don't have to name specifics, but what's the breadth of the kind of bases that you do your work in?
00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:56.000
So I primarily specialize now in infrastructure and planning.
00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:58.559
Currently now at state tourism.
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:09.279
So for AUKUS, which is our country, our services, and we are a team that basically help indigenous tourism operators.
00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:19.839
We get them up to speed and we help them mature and become like either domestic ready or what they refer to as export ready.
00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:25.440
And it's been an absolute learning curve for me with all the new terminology and all the new acronyms and that.
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:35.759
But my previous lifetime, which was just the last role, was with state infrastructure and planning, and I came in and helped them with pretty much statewide with their strategic plans.
00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:41.759
They have, they obviously do 10-year strat plans, and it was with their First Nations engagement.
00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:52.319
We did focus on some sort of areas, but I did have the opportunity because obviously I specialize in Southeast Queensland with all my networks and connections, and that's where I've started.
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:55.519
But now I've been able to expand that statewide.
00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:59.359
But there's also opportunities where I've been able to broadly do that.
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:01.039
And And that's another reason.
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:04.720
The way that I've written the book, it's nationally.
00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:12.880
You can pick it up in Western Australia, in Broome, and use this book, and the principles in the book will apply.
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:15.200
So, and that's the way the book's written.
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:18.880
It's not sort of centric to my area locally.
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:24.079
I've tried to really sort of write it in a way that can help anyone, you know.
00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:25.440
You did a great job.
00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:28.079
I've got a bit of a soft spot for infrastructure and planning.
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:31.440
I used to work at a council, a big council in Melbourne, so in comms.
00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:38.160
So I have sat through many things and worked on many things that are around infrastructure and planning.
00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:39.839
And uh yes, I get it.
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:47.680
I I think it's a lot I I don't know why, but all my buddies are architects and planners, and that's just how it works out.
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:54.480
So all my architect bodies are basically just their day jobs are architects, but they really want to be artists.
00:22:54.880 --> 00:23:02.400
Your book is actually perfect for teams or boards or exec or anything to actually do that as a a book club almost.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.720
You know, a little book club or just read it together.
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:06.319
I really like the layout of it.
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:07.759
And it's it was very smart.
00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:11.039
Like very smart and very heartfelt, I think, the way you wrote it.
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:17.200
What I find is in the indigenous space, people really, really want to engage.
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:22.160
They have really good intentions, but they might have encountered the wrong person.
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:25.279
There was something, and then all of a sudden they're scared.
00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:27.359
So they just don't do it.
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:29.039
So that doesn't help anyone.
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:37.279
And I get that a lot of people come to me all the time and say that, oh, look, we really want to, but we're scared, you know.
00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:47.440
So with this book, I was sort of also hoping to empower and give people sort of be bold, be brave, and you know, go forward, you know, and engage.
00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:53.200
Learn the history, learn, you know, reach out, make those connections, establish those relationships.
00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:56.400
And these will be lifelong relationships sometimes.
00:23:56.720 --> 00:23:58.000
I think that's a good point.
00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:11.519
It really is important for all of us to be engaging with what you're writing about and your work in industries or you just like an individual, because I I do feel things are not great out there.
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:13.279
There's stuff that's going on.
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:19.839
The moment parties threatening to end the Victorian Treaty, which I've been following that project.
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:24.480
That is such a wonderful example of engagement and co-design.
00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:27.039
And like, how does it feel at the moment?
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:36.720
You're doing this very hopeful, wonderful work, and it's really informative, but there's nasty stuff happening and it's harmful.
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:48.000
Well, historically, historically, throughout human history, not just our history, we will always go through these periods.
00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:50.480
Well, we'll always go through these times.
00:24:50.960 --> 00:25:08.079
When I do get that feeling, like you just explained to me, lately I've just been able to resort back and just like I don't know if it's not empathized, but just think of what I just personalize and go, what my mother had to go through.
00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:36.240
She was a female in Queensland that just came out of through the indigenous the sale of opium and Aboriginal Protection Act, which was incredibly restrictive to Aboriginal and Aboriginal people lived in fear, then going through this sort of takeover, these pasterialists, you know, and then being this led charge by leaders such as Joe Biocchi Peterson and that were just absolute fascist rule.
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.279
You know, you look back at their actions going, how do we even live?
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:42.480
And that was not even a democracy in their actions.
00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:46.880
So, and and what they did, especially to the Aboriginal people in Queensland.
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:54.000
So for my mother to go through that, so I just look back and go, man, she had it way rougher than what I did.
00:25:54.079 --> 00:26:16.400
You know, what we're experiencing now, yes, maybe it's a little overwhelming because we do get a lot more information now through our social media, through, and we sort of once we start scrolling, once those algorithms pick up where our eyeballs are sort of spending an extra couple of milliseconds on, it'll start flooding your Instagram.
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:23.279
But there's always going to be people like that, and throughout look what we've had to deal through without human history.
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:36.400
And currently it just seems to be a little bit more rampant, obviously, globally, given leadership changes, such as the US and other places, that relying on that vote getting.
00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:45.599
It's about vote getting, and it's about getting into power and then embeddment of themselves, private profiteering from their power.
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:47.920
And we'll always have to deal with that.
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:50.880
But it's good to be vigilant of it and understand it.
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:54.880
I think just going back to the book, it lays it out very simply.
00:26:55.039 --> 00:27:00.720
Just learn some history of the country and the people that you're engaging with on the on the land that you're engaging with.
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:06.720
And through that whole process, you learn the history and you go, uh, it's not the greatest of histories, you know.
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:17.279
Oh, that and then so you actually have empathy for the people and the families, and you understand the generational trauma that some of these families have had to go through and put up with.
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:19.839
And it's constantly that sort of cycle.
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:34.960
So look, I think people do understand it, and people can easily read through vote-grabbing, sensationalized headlines or quotes that they might say to drum up things.
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:46.720
And I always remind people too, and especially with our family, look, we've been here for quite a few thousand years, and we'll we'll still be here no matter what, you know, good or bad, we'll still get through it.
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:51.440
So as we wrap up, I'm so grateful that you've for your time for our podcast.
00:27:51.599 --> 00:27:55.680
Do you have any final thoughts for listeners or anything you want to say that I didn't cover?
00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:58.480
I can plug the next series that I'll be doing.
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:07.759
So a continuation of this topic and and this book that I'm starting to roll up now is From the Campfire to the Boardroom.
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:09.839
Oh, I like that.
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:10.799
Yeah.
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:14.799
Did you like that I asked a board question in this interview?
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:16.559
Yes, yes, yeah.
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:23.440
Well, I didn't know you came from infrastructure and planning because engagement is just a component of a whole process.
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:24.000
Right.
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:34.880
Now that you've engaged, so infrastructure and planning, now that you've engaged with key stakeholders, because you're in infrastructure, you have to engage with a whole variety of different stuff, not just First Nations movement.
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:36.880
How do you implement that?
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:39.759
You know, how do you go from Indigenous engagement?
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:43.599
How do you implement that from the campfire to the boardroom?
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:48.319
Thank you again, Shannon Best, for being so generous with your time.
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:49.119
No worries.
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:53.039
And be sure to check out his book, Indigenous Rules of Engagement.
00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:56.160
And that's available in all good bookstores and online.
00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:58.799
And we will share details in the show notes.
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:00.319
I highly recommend it.
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:02.960
Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.