FBA 008 Jonathan Hunsley: Professionalisation of the Business Analyst Role

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Joe Newbert: Hey everyone is
Joe. Welcome to another episode
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of the future business analyst
podcast. My guest today is
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Jonathan Huntley service
development director with a
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system knowledge development.
Now, Jonathan very humbly left
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one of the fields empty in the
guest form, which means there's
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a consequence that him to him
that I need to fill that gap. So
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as well as being the service
Development Directorate Assist
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is also chief Brewer, or maybe
the big tea pots or something
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like that. The BA brew prog
podcast. Welcome to the show.
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Jonathan. Thanks for joining me
today.
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Unknown: Thanks, Jerry, thank
you for inviting me, I'm really
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pleased to be here.
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Joe Newbert: Ya know, it's good
to have you now the place we
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usually start with people, it's
just to understand a bit about
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their, their background, so why
don't you sort of introduce us
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to you with a bit of a story of
how you got introduced to
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business analysis?
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Unknown: Okay, so I started off
my career, following going to
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university, working for an
insurance company of all places.
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And I saw a job advert on the
internal intranet site for a
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trainee business analyst for a
graduate kind of scheme. And I
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applied, I was shocked to get
the job. And I'll be honest,
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Joe, I didn't really know what
it was that I was applying for.
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I remember asking quite a few
people. What is this BA role,
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what it really is a business
analyst and whoever I asked to
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get different answers from, and
I got cold feet, Joe, I
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initially turned that job down.
Because it meant I'd have to
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move house and all sorts of
weird things. So I turned it
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down. And I had a quite a few
sleepless nights. And then I
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rang up the recruiting manager
and said, I've changed my mind.
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Can I come and join you. And I
started off, I'd a two year very
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structured placement program
working around different areas
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of information technology. So I
worked in management
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information, data warehousing,
information, security, and a few
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other departments. And I
finished this placement scheme
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thing. And then I was I was, I
was looking at someone's desk,
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and I found something called an
ISEB wheel, which was the
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Information Systems examination
board as it was back then. And I
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got myself on to a BCS
accredited diploma program. And
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I really haven't looked back,
Joe, that that that course, was,
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for me, the start of my business
analysis career, or whilst I've
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been doing a couple of years are
still trying to find my way. The
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real start was when I saw that
ISEB wheel it's now BCS. But I'm
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yet going on. It was a modeling
business processes course at
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Piccadilly Circus in London.
That was where I really thought,
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Alright, this is our start to
find my, my profession, I
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suppose.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah, that's
fantastic. And like, I mean,
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you've you've come sort of full
circle, really, from that
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graduate that trainee and now to
be in a position that you are
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getting the opportunity every
day to help people with that
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same BCS diploma, right. It's,
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Unknown: it's fantastic. I, I'm
one of the few people that I
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talk to anyway, that I genuinely
love my job. I like helping
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people, I like solving problems,
I like moving businesses
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forward. And helping people
develop, learn and grow, it's
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one of the absolute privileges
of of my job as it is your job
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because you get the chance to do
it as well. It's really
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rewarding,
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Joe Newbert: is completely
rewarding. I'm possibly the
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other person then who enjoys
their job, too. But, no, this is
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a huge amount of, you know, sort
of helping people in seeing that
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moment when they like, get it
when they get business analysis.
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And, and they can just like,
apply it, you know, template
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aside, not following a process.
I just like I get this thing. I
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mean, it's so rewarding.
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Unknown: Yeah, yeah, it's
fantastic.
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Joe Newbert: Two phrases you
mentioned in there, one was
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solving problems to was moving
things forward. We've got a bit
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of a problem to solve today,
which is the future of business
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analysis, right? I don't expect
you to solve it. For me, that
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would be a big ask ones it but
you know, moving profession
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forwards, because I'm sure that
you've seen it evolve from when
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you started through to the point
where it is now and I think
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you're in a fortunate position
where actually you do get the
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chance to drive the profession
forward through some of the sort
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of course authoring that you do
and making that available to
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people. So it's a phenomenal
position that you have. So maybe
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on that note, sort of, where do
you see us moving towards what
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what do you think the next sort
of trends coming are?
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Unknown: So I find this Question
it's really difficult to answer
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and I've got some thoughts on
it. But I'm just aware that I'm
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gonna look back on this podcast
recording in five years time and
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know that I've given the wrong
answers so much just acutely
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aware. So if only we had a time
machine so we could see the
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future. But I'm, I really
thought about this before before
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today's poll. And I also I'm
going to share I typed in some
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of these questions into chat
GPT, Joe, oh, actually put my
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thoughts down. And I thought, I
wonder what chat GPT thinks,
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Okay. That's my first trend, I
think that we're going to use
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technology more and more in our
professional discipline via
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artificial intelligence. But
other technologies that aren't
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yet invented. We are, I think,
going to be moved towards a
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knowledge engineering, a
knowledge discipline, where were
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needing to take informed data
driven decisions, we were going
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to have to collaborate a lot
more extensively than we do
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today. And I think tooling can
be a part of how we collaborate.
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I think professionalization of
this career career in this
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professional discipline, is,
it's already happening. And I
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see it continuing. And I think
it will grow, grow further
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beyond where it is now. Because
I think there are there's a lot
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of individuals that are
practicing as business analysts
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that maybe haven't done any
structured training, they then
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they've not done the reading,
they haven't had the coaching,
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potentially, but they still got
the job title, business analyst
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and, and I think going forward,
we're going to see an increased
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professionalization of this
career, where we work to
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standards, and we're subject to
continuous improvement,
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continuing professional
development. The other thing I
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want to throw in, I think we've
got to be more and more outcome
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driven. So outcomes for the
businesses, the organizations
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that we work for, outcomes for
the broader set of stakeholders,
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and the particular stakeholder
that I really think needs to
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come front and front and
foremost in mind, is the
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customer. We've really got to be
driving the work towards
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customer and business outcomes.
And I've got lots of other
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thoughts about trends on
business architecture, business
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service design, and other things
as well. There's I, I really
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want that time machine to look
back and see where does it go.
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But I hope it gives you a bit of
a flavor, Joe,
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Joe Newbert: it just gives me a
flavor, I feel like you through
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the entire kitchen in the sink
at what might be coming. I'm
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also very interested, as you say
in five years time, so don't do
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a school you versus chat GPT to
see like, who comes out a little
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bit ahead of the other one here.
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Unknown: TPT will win Sure.
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Joe Newbert: Well, you know, I
don't know the thing about chat.
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GPT is it's just sort of a
collection of common knowledge,
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right, that is taken and as much
as common knowledge often can,
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like indicate patterns and
trends often look to the
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outliers in the individual
thinking to perhaps bring
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something that that's a bit
different to that because chat,
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GBT will probably give me the
same answers every time. Right?
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Whereas you're gonna give me
some different answers to what
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Samuel gave me on the last pod.
So yeah, so I'm very, very keen
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to hear this. Let's let's go
back to a couple of things.
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Let's tackle them together. I
think maybe because you sort of
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brought them together here. And
it's tooling in collaboration.
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So I mean, on one hand, I'm sort
of, of the opinion that
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previously, business analysts
haven't really been given, like
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the best tools to be able to do
their jobs, it often feels like
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we're the shoemaker, without
shoes, but certainly, you know,
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the technology that we have
available to us is quite
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marvelous, and even like free
versions of stuff. I'm using
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otter AI. I'm using Grammarly,
like in my daily work to get
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things done. I'm using AI in
notion to Slyke it's increasing
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my productivity and things. But
when it comes to tooling in
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collaboration, what what sort of
things do you imagine there? And
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I mean, this is just imagining,
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Unknown: and we don't know, but
I'm, I'm expecting that AI will
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be used as a source for data
driven decisions. And I think,
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you know, this kind of a
traditional approach towards
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option appraisal in a business
case. I think that's going to
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move forward. I really, really
think there's going to be models
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looking at scenarios that they
already exist in certain
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disciplines, but I don't see
them being used extensively in
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business analysis. I think you
know, as we're appraising
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options and hypothesis is four
potential concepts, I think
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we're going to be plugging those
into models and getting feedback
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on various scenarios and looking
at well, what are the risks?
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What are the issues? What are
what's the potential impacts
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here? And what are the other
things I think's going to
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happen? And you some sometimes
see this in kind of the
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technology development world
where you they're doing
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hackathons to look at how do we
code a solution for a particular
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problem? Well, I think going
forward, we're gonna have
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business analysts working with
their peers to solve really
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difficult problems. And they're
going to need tooling in order
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to support them in doing that.
But I'm sort of seeing a world
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where we're working on wicked
problems, really tough problems.
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And we're going to be working
cross continents, cross
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cultures, possibly across
different languages using
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different tools to solve the
complex challenges in our
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organizations in the worlds in
which we operate. And I don't
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know if it's going to come
through yet, but I can see it
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happening. And I don't think
that the situation where we've
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been with, we've historically
been used using tools where
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they've not been invested in, I
think the importance of business
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analysis is going to grow. And
therefore, we're going to need
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increased standards, increased
professionalization, and we're
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going to need the support of the
tools to do some of the things
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that I'm talking about. Going
forward.
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Joe Newbert: It's, it's really
interesting that you say
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different languages, right?
Because I mean, I have seen some
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of these translation tools, and
I can speak to you in one
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language, and it can, you know,
move that on in real time and in
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a conversation, so it's always
gonna make things a lot more
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streamlined and a lot more
seamless in how we can do
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things. I like that idea of
solving wicked problems as well.
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I mean, it'd be really good if
we can start to, you know, do
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some innovation around that. But
but one of the things that was
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probably sort of jumping into my
mind, while you talked about
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that, if we do imagine that
there is some form of AI, and
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that API is some form of
repository, right? It knows the
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organization, it knows the world
society, the domain, you know,
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it's like, it's got that sort of
wealth of knowledge sitting
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there. And we're using tools as
a form of interface, right?
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Maybe we're speaking with voice
or whatever it is, in order to
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do this. But when it comes down
to I imagine is asking the right
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question. Is that going to be
where the differences between
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sort of a good BA and a Ba, ba,
ba, perhaps?
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Unknown: Well, I think I think
we've got a challenge in in the
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profession, we need to increase,
we've got to uplift everyone. I
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think that to gain the respect
of other change disciplines to
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gain the respect of some of the
colleagues that we work with in
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the organizations that we have,
we've got, we've got to upskill
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ourselves and increase our
professionalism. And it's this,
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this is work, we've got to do
the work. I think, Joe, it's
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it's partly about asking the
right questions. But it's asking
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that question at the right time
to the right stakeholder in the
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right context in the right way.
Sometimes it's comes down to
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your tone of voice that you use,
relative to asking the question
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in terms of how it lands, it
might be that you ask a
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question, it's perfectly valid
question. But if you ask it in
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front of a group where the
person you're asking the
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question, is looking towards
their peers, or their peers or
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watching them answer the
question, you might lose that
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stakeholder at that point in
time. And so you got to ask the
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right question the right way at
the right time with the right
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person. And we've got to get
more adept, and I think more
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emotionally intelligent,
relative to the asking of the
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questions. And then the other
key skill, and this is nothing
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new. We're gonna get better at
listening. We've got to get much
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better at listening. Because
when we answer when we ask these
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questions, I have way too many
stories of stakeholders that are
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really annoyed that a BA
professionals ask them a
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question. And there's another ba
professional that comes along
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369 months later, and are
similar questions. And this is
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where I think the tooling can
help. Yeah, but the
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collaboration Absolutely. We got
to capture this knowledge,
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retain it, and reuse it. And
this This for me is like the
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next the next leap in business
analysis. Let's let's ask the
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right questions, but listen to
the answers and capture the
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knowledge. So we can reuse it.
Because at the moment, we're
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capturing it in a piecemeal
basis, and we're not sharing and
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I think that's gonna move
forward.
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Joe Newbert: It does is it's
always captured on a per project
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basis rather than an
organization basis. So it's sort
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of lives in that little
repository of information when
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that particular change was done.
But it's not extended to
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everyone. It reminds me
something that I joke about
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often on the training when bas
go in To a new assignment, they
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always have to do analysis
process flow for like to
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understand what happens, but
they're like the 30th Ba that
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has sat in that chair in that
department. So I just find it
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astounding how there isn't an as
is process flow, it's sort of
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disappeared, right?
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Unknown: Yeah. And it's that,
that I mean, take the process
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information we should have, we
should have captured and retain
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that. And I know it takes
maintenance. I know it's work.
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But we should know how our
systems operate. We should know
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how we deliver our current
product services. But some
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reason we're not capturing it in
the change profession. We are
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capturing it will capture on a
per product or per project
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basis. It's not reusable, we've
got to solve that challenge. And
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we'll be more active if we do
because then you can you're not
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asking the what is the as is
you're starting to say well,
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what's possible about the
future.
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Joe Newbert: So yeah, just just
getting that knowledge to be to
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be up to date. And to be
current. You use the word
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professional in there. So let me
jump onto one of those other
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things that you threw at me at
the beginning, right,
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professionalism. You talk about,
you talk about more people
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basically been drawn to the
profession, I suppose. The fact
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that they might not identify as
a BA right now. But over time,
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they're going to find a way to
realize that there are
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similarities between them. I'd
imagine that that technology
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that you're talking about the
beginning helps because you
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know, when there's technology,
it just means that more people
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can communicate with more people
more often. And so perhaps
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that's going to increase the
chances of people finding like
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this, this business analysis
role this name, how do you see
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the professional community
changing as it starts to
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snowball them with new members?
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Unknown: So I think it's partly
new members entering the
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profession. But it's it's also
uplifting the current members in
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the profession. And so I think
there's there's a few things
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that we need to discuss more
proactively as a professional
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discipline, not least the role,
and what are our roles and
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responsibilities relative to
other change professionals?
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There's far too much role
ambiguity, confusion between,
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for example, the business
analyst and UX designers or
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solution architects, business
and enterprise architects. Where
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does one start one finish? Whose
job is it to look at the non
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functional requirements, for
example of a particular product
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or service offering? In some
projects, it's one role in
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another project is a different
role in one team and someone
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else. And, and I'm not saying we
need a global standard for that,
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that everyone has to comply
with, because I don't think
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that's realistic. But, ya know,
it's not going to happen
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overnight. But, um, if we don't
have these discussions, and we
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don't obtain some role, clarity,
we have an argument and
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sometimes a little bit of
politics inside the team where
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people are trading for position.
And trying to say, well, that's
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piece of work is mine. No,
that's mine. And, and then
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arguing out, that's not helping
deliver the customer in the
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business outcomes. So I think
this is another issue, another
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challenge that we need to move
forward on. I don't have all the
299
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answers, unfortunately. But this
endless argument, where does the
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BA start and stop relative to
the other change professionals?
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I think we need to, we need to
have that discussion and move
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forward on it. We have a basis
then to collaborate, which we
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don't know who's doing what, how
can we collaborate?
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Joe Newbert: Yeah. One of the
things often think and this is a
305
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very geeky activity that I'm
about to suggest. But if you
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think about business
architecture and capability
307
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models, capability models are
like the gradual decomposition
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of like things right in within
their boxes. And I often wonder,
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it's like, well, you know, we
like to say that that one is a
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form of business analysis. And
that role is a form of business
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analysis. But it's like which
ones are even to begin with
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which ones do fall under the
sort of business analyst
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umbrella and which one are
actually changed disciplines
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that don't fall under that
umbrella. So then we get all
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these sort of derivatives of
everything that are part of the
316
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job family, and then we get
other ones that don't. And I
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think that would be helpful,
because as you're talking at the
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beginning, and you know, we're
trying to carve up these
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different roles and make sense
of them. One thing that doesn't
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help us get to stand is the fact
that organizations are of
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different sizes. So if you're a
small startup, you're not going
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to have 10 different people. But
if you started to see it as job
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families, perhaps you could put
all of those things together
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under that one within there, and
that might be that might be
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quite helpful. Move. But do you
see the profession in terms of
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its sort of membership? And
where it sort of resonates to
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do? Do you perhaps see anything
happening there in our community
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going forward?
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Unknown: So I think that there
needs to be more discussion on
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standards, I think there needs
to be more discussion on
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outcomes from business analysis,
service delivery. And I do think
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that data driven decision
making, we've got to start
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learning lessons, not on a, not
just on the per project or per
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product release or service
release basis, but across the
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community. So how can we get
Bas, let's say, for example, in
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the UK, collaborating with Bas
that working in South Africa,
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or, or, or the Netherlands,
learning lessons and sharing
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them with each other. And I'm
drawing on if you've come across
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it, the concept of the black box
in black box thinking Matthew
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cite an industry whereby we look
at lessons learned and how we
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move forward, someone showed me
or told me just last week, about
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a 27 million pound project that
had been deployed, where they
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weren't allowed to go and speak
to any of the users of a target
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state system. And so they they
developed requirements, they
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develop the solution, without
any conversation with the actual
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users of this solution, okay.
And they've deployed it, and
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it's defective, it doesn't work.
It's not meeting the user
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customer outputs. And this is
this is in a modern
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organization. I'm not going to
name but I'm now going to do
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another project to fix that. And
it's kind of this this is these
351
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are age old problems that we've
known about for decades. And we,
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we have to get to a point
whereby we get to a tipping
353
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point where we say, this isn't
acceptable anymore. We want to
354
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drive strategically aligned
beneficial outcomes for our
355
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organizations. And we're going
to learn lessons, what's going
356
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well, and what's not working
well, and stop repeating the
357
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mistakes and start learning from
the successes. And I'm, I don't
358
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have all the answers. But I
think collaboration and tooling
359
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has got to be a part of this.
And standards, we could have a
360
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standard so we can communicate
with each other. If that makes
361
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sense.
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Joe Newbert: When you were
telling me that story. I was
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thinking, is this going to end
in a happy way? Like actually is
364
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it I felt like you might be
building up some happy ending
365
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where they've managed to
miraculously deliver something
366
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and customer wanted without
speaking with no, crazy, isn't
367
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it? No,
368
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Unknown: I mean, doing business
analysis with your hands tied
369
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behind your back and blindfolded
not being able to talk to your
370
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customers and users, your
stakeholders, you know, that
371
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that that should be consigned to
a different era? And, and we
372
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should, we should have moved on
from that. But unfortunately,
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and that's just one anecdote.
There are still projects where
374
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the BAS are perceived to not be
able to or not allowed to go and
375
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talk to people. And that, that I
you know, we've got to consigned
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to history.
377
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Joe Newbert: Yeah. No, we do.
It's just It's insane. That that
378
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can still happen. Yeah, it's
like, well, you may as well not
379
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have those bas. Really? I want
to drop to words you've actually
380
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,120
not dropped in yet. I'm
surprised not to have her these
381
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come come out of your mouth yet,
Jonathan, but service design
382
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Unknown: for service design.
It's part of the future. You
383
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know that? I think that Joe? I
think I think that the BA has
384
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historically been quite
comfortable talking about
385
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requirements, and options and
business cases. But what we need
386
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:55,650
to do is we need to move from a
position whereby we're afraid to
387
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or unwilling to talk about
solutions, and to move into a
388
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:04,230
realm whereby we're comfortable
facilitating design decisions
389
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and looking at how do we design
services in a cohesive,
390
00:24:09,780 --> 00:24:12,540
collaborative way with other
colleagues in the change
391
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profession. And I do see this as
a major kind of stream of where
392
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,730
I think business analysis is
going to move to where we're
393
00:24:20,730 --> 00:24:23,160
going to have to roll our
sleeves up and get our hands
394
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,760
dirty, and start looking at
prototype solutions. deploying
395
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,260
those testing hypothesis is
being comfortable with a be
396
00:24:31,260 --> 00:24:36,000
testing and learning from
lessons learned from prototypes,
397
00:24:36,150 --> 00:24:39,030
working with customers and
improving and evolving things.
398
00:24:39,510 --> 00:24:44,070
And that historically, that
position whereby the BA would
399
00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:47,490
only ever look at the
requirement and non solution
400
00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:51,270
specific, I think we've we've we
need to be mindful that there's
401
00:24:51,270 --> 00:24:55,350
a time and a place to only look
at requirements from what it is
402
00:24:55,380 --> 00:24:59,130
that we want to achieve, but
we've got to be comfortable at
403
00:24:59,130 --> 00:25:02,070
the right time. And the right
place and with the right
404
00:25:02,070 --> 00:25:06,180
context, to cross over that
Rubicon and start to talk about
405
00:25:06,180 --> 00:25:10,290
what solutions might be viable
for our context in which we're
406
00:25:10,290 --> 00:25:15,150
working techniques like design
thinking, can help with this or
407
00:25:15,150 --> 00:25:18,120
approaches such as design
thinking and out with this, but
408
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:21,960
we've got to we've got to move
from just looking at the what to
409
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:26,760
looking at both the what and the
how, relative to the solutions
410
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,270
that we're putting forward. And
we've got to, we've got to gain
411
00:25:30,270 --> 00:25:33,450
confidence and competence in
doing that. And I think service
412
00:25:33,450 --> 00:25:38,520
design is absolutely one of the
ways that we can do that. Yeah,
413
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,880
Joe Newbert: I think so too.
Before delving into some of this
414
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,180
stuff that I just want you to
sort of position something a
415
00:25:45,180 --> 00:25:48,090
little bit for me, I, you know,
I'm hearing, prototyping, I'm
416
00:25:48,090 --> 00:25:51,660
hearing a B testing, and I'm
thinking, what's the difference
417
00:25:51,660 --> 00:25:55,500
between service design and
product management? Maybe?
418
00:25:56,460 --> 00:25:59,220
Unknown: This is a fantastic
question. I'm so pleased to
419
00:25:59,220 --> 00:26:03,720
answer that. But you've asked
the question anyway. So in the
420
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,260
change world, as I see it,
there's often a project focus,
421
00:26:07,260 --> 00:26:10,290
or we're delivering in the
constraint of a project, or
422
00:26:10,290 --> 00:26:15,540
we're developing and delivering
products. And both of these ways
423
00:26:15,540 --> 00:26:20,400
of thinking and approaches, I
think, are becoming out of date.
424
00:26:20,850 --> 00:26:26,310
So service looks holistically
across all projects across all
425
00:26:26,310 --> 00:26:31,890
products. And so we've talked in
business analysis terms, for a
426
00:26:31,890 --> 00:26:36,840
long time about this need for a
holistic view, the service
427
00:26:37,860 --> 00:26:40,890
concept looks across all
products. So we're looking at
428
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:46,890
what is the customer experience
across any of the products with
429
00:26:46,890 --> 00:26:51,090
which you might interact with
relative to an organization. So
430
00:26:51,090 --> 00:26:54,960
if we took Apple, for example,
they've got a holistic design
431
00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:01,650
across the the watch the phone,
the Mac, the Apple TV products,
432
00:27:01,770 --> 00:27:03,690
and so what what is service?
Well, we're looking at
433
00:27:03,690 --> 00:27:08,820
consistent service offer,
consistent, and in an enhanced
434
00:27:08,820 --> 00:27:11,940
customer experience across those
products. So we're looking at,
435
00:27:12,330 --> 00:27:17,130
like a strategic positioning
above products, and one of the
436
00:27:17,130 --> 00:27:20,610
things I think will happen, and
I haven't got the crystal ball,
437
00:27:20,610 --> 00:27:24,420
but I think product centric
thinking is slowly going to
438
00:27:24,420 --> 00:27:27,210
become out of date. Because
people are going to realize that
439
00:27:27,210 --> 00:27:29,820
actually, we need to think about
these things holistically. It's
440
00:27:29,820 --> 00:27:32,910
no good having a great customer
experience with a single product
441
00:27:32,910 --> 00:27:36,240
and use another product from
that company. And it's dire,
442
00:27:36,750 --> 00:27:39,210
that variance is going to cause
you to go elsewhere.
443
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:41,880
Joe Newbert: There's going to be
variability between the
444
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,550
different product teams to
implement those if they don't
445
00:27:44,550 --> 00:27:48,030
know the overreaching standards.
So it's a bit like a sort of
446
00:27:48,030 --> 00:27:52,440
brand wrapper in a way and
experience wrapper just to make
447
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,100
sure that there's sort of
consistency across all of those
448
00:27:56,100 --> 00:27:58,800
touchpoints between the
organization and the customer.
449
00:27:59,250 --> 00:27:59,700
Yeah,
450
00:27:59,730 --> 00:28:02,760
Unknown: and then the ability to
dive into the detail in the
451
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,200
product and to fix improve pain
points, touch points, as
452
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,580
appropriate, but be able to zoom
in to the detail and zoom out
453
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:16,290
holistically the thing joins up,
and it works effectively and
454
00:28:16,290 --> 00:28:20,130
efficiently for both the
business and its customers.
455
00:28:20,340 --> 00:28:24,540
Yeah. other stakeholders. I
mean, I've worked in financial
456
00:28:24,540 --> 00:28:28,140
services for the majority of my
career, Joe, there's one bank
457
00:28:28,140 --> 00:28:34,620
that I worked for, that had just
debt collection 37 different
458
00:28:34,620 --> 00:28:39,450
teams collecting debt in 37
different ways using 37 sets of
459
00:28:39,450 --> 00:28:43,020
processes, business rules,
standards, and information
460
00:28:43,020 --> 00:28:47,400
technology products. And this
kind of that's, that's okay, in
461
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,270
a product centric world. Well,
maybe not. But, you know, if
462
00:28:51,270 --> 00:28:54,540
you're just thinking about your
product and debt collection, or
463
00:28:54,540 --> 00:28:57,090
your project and debt
collection, that's okay. But
464
00:28:57,090 --> 00:29:01,320
what I'm saying is that service
design allows you to see that
465
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,080
and business architecture tools
allow you to do this as well to
466
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,130
see the common threads. And so
conceptual thinking, and
467
00:29:08,130 --> 00:29:11,070
thinking about the customer
experience has to be part of the
468
00:29:11,070 --> 00:29:12,660
way we move this profession
forward.
469
00:29:13,319 --> 00:29:16,529
Joe Newbert: Yeah, it does. And
then you know, with that, if you
470
00:29:16,529 --> 00:29:20,039
do find a certain Gremlin in one
spot, you know that in three or
471
00:29:20,039 --> 00:29:23,729
four other spots as well, you've
got to iron, iron that out.
472
00:29:25,169 --> 00:29:28,289
Okay, so let's see, let's come a
little bit back deeper into this
473
00:29:28,289 --> 00:29:32,669
now, now that you've cleared up
the difference between the two
474
00:29:32,699 --> 00:29:37,379
for me, I mean, you talked about
things like prototyping and a B
475
00:29:37,379 --> 00:29:41,579
test. And you mentioned this
line between what and how I
476
00:29:41,579 --> 00:29:44,579
remember I mean, that was a line
we were always taught growing up
477
00:29:44,579 --> 00:29:48,239
in business analysis, wasn't it?
You do the watch, you don't do
478
00:29:48,239 --> 00:29:53,339
the how. And I often felt with
the systems analysis side of
479
00:29:53,369 --> 00:29:57,419
business analysis that there was
a bit of how potentially,
480
00:29:57,659 --> 00:29:59,999
depending on the organization,
you might do a bit of sort of
481
00:29:59,999 --> 00:30:04,379
views interface design. But even
with business analysis to a
482
00:30:04,379 --> 00:30:08,039
degree, I feel like there's a
bit of how because we constrain
483
00:30:08,399 --> 00:30:12,839
later on, we're sort of
implicitly like framing a
484
00:30:12,839 --> 00:30:16,769
design. But getting deeper into
it being a part of the
485
00:30:16,769 --> 00:30:20,489
conversations about what that
thing looks like, I think would
486
00:30:20,489 --> 00:30:25,349
be really interesting. So how do
you sort of you mentioned design
487
00:30:25,349 --> 00:30:29,369
thinking as well. But do you see
prototyping, just becoming more
488
00:30:29,369 --> 00:30:33,299
prevalent in sort of day to day
life here and is a B testing.
489
00:30:33,990 --> 00:30:37,380
Unknown: I think, you know, lots
of bas already using prototyping
490
00:30:37,380 --> 00:30:42,300
all of the time. But I'm
experimenting with concepts,
491
00:30:42,330 --> 00:30:47,400
thoughts hypothesis, so thought
prototypes. And then if it's a
492
00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:50,640
prototype of a technology
solution, absolutely the wire
493
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,270
framing and the actual tech
prototype, but it might be a
494
00:30:54,270 --> 00:30:57,750
prototype of a new product,
might be a prototype of a new
495
00:30:57,750 --> 00:31:03,270
service. And I think we've got
to get more comfortable with the
496
00:31:03,270 --> 00:31:06,600
fact that the world is uncertain
and complex, and we don't have
497
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,980
all the answers. And so in the
definition of our requirements
498
00:31:11,070 --> 00:31:16,590
upfront, we don't know we can't
predict the future. And so one
499
00:31:16,590 --> 00:31:20,370
of the things we can use the
prototype for is to explore. And
500
00:31:21,210 --> 00:31:24,540
I'm gonna throw in some
additional kind of words in our
501
00:31:24,540 --> 00:31:27,450
systems thinking, systemic
thinking, if you think about
502
00:31:27,450 --> 00:31:31,830
systems of systems and all these
interrelated components, we
503
00:31:31,830 --> 00:31:35,700
can't possibly understand that
on our own. And if we make a
504
00:31:35,700 --> 00:31:38,190
change, we're gonna have to see
what what's the impact on the
505
00:31:38,190 --> 00:31:41,820
systems, or the broader
ecosystem in which we operate.
506
00:31:42,420 --> 00:31:45,780
And I think, you know, these
concepts A B testing for me
507
00:31:45,780 --> 00:31:48,780
isn't just about technology,
it's about testing different
508
00:31:49,050 --> 00:31:51,900
processes, maybe different sets
of business rules, or a
509
00:31:51,900 --> 00:31:56,280
different variant of a product
or service. It's a concept that
510
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,910
comes from tech development. But
we don't have to get more and
511
00:31:59,910 --> 00:32:03,990
more comfortable and confident
in using these types of tools.
512
00:32:04,380 --> 00:32:07,920
So that we can test the ideas
that that we have, and be part
513
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,660
of the conversation about how we
move businesses forward. Far too
514
00:32:12,660 --> 00:32:15,600
often, because we've got this
blocker, we'll just talk about
515
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,440
the what, and just the
requirements, we then
516
00:32:19,590 --> 00:32:26,490
unfortunately, in some instances
were ignored or completely left
517
00:32:26,490 --> 00:32:28,650
out of the loop in terms of the
conversation. So senior
518
00:32:28,650 --> 00:32:32,460
executive will go direct to the
person who will prototype their
519
00:32:32,490 --> 00:32:35,940
idea, their concept, miss out
the BAS, because they spend a
520
00:32:35,940 --> 00:32:39,420
lot of time filling out
documentation in some instances.
521
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:44,250
And that that, for me is is a
threat to this profession. And
522
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,270
we have to be we have to be
cognizant of the problems in the
523
00:32:48,270 --> 00:32:53,100
profession, and move the
profession forward so that we
524
00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:56,820
are comfortable with rapid
prototyping of new concepts and
525
00:32:56,820 --> 00:33:01,140
ideas, objective data decision
making, based upon those, you
526
00:33:01,140 --> 00:33:04,110
know, the A B testing of the new
concept or an idea and learning
527
00:33:04,110 --> 00:33:07,440
from the results, and working
with our businesses or
528
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,910
organizations to push, push,
push ideas push change forward
529
00:33:11,910 --> 00:33:15,540
in a positive, beneficial and
aligned way.
530
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:23,880
Joe Newbert: Yeah. There isn't a
patience for a BA to go on for
531
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,200
months sort of requirements,
right in Journey is there, as
532
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,440
you say, people answers now. So
they're gonna go to the person
533
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,040
who can answer it. Now, whether
that's internal, or a lot of the
534
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,650
time, it's external as well to
find a partner that's going to
535
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,130
going to help them and then
you've got no chance of getting
536
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:46,200
into the back of that
conversation. A B testing. I
537
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,330
mean, you mentioned coming out
of technology. And I mean,
538
00:33:48,330 --> 00:33:51,750
coming out of product, the thing
that jumps to my mind first is
539
00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:55,200
always actually marketing, like
branding. And I feel that
540
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,450
perhaps there's a bit you know,
you've talked about service
541
00:33:57,450 --> 00:34:01,380
design, you've talked about a B
testing processes, product
542
00:34:01,380 --> 00:34:04,680
services, that kind of thing.
It's very similar in marketing,
543
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,970
isn't it? They're testing ideas
to see which ones help the
544
00:34:08,970 --> 00:34:13,260
customer bite. And I guess it's
similar to this in terms of
545
00:34:14,010 --> 00:34:19,980
services and things. I'm going
to pick something up from your
546
00:34:19,980 --> 00:34:23,310
survey answers here that I'd
love to talk about. I think I
547
00:34:23,310 --> 00:34:26,070
think it's a great little two
word phrase. He talks about
548
00:34:26,070 --> 00:34:29,610
pushing ideas with business,
trying to move change forward.
549
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,320
He used the phrase here about
being a critical friend to snus.
550
00:34:35,340 --> 00:34:36,060
That's great.
551
00:34:37,650 --> 00:34:42,600
Unknown: Yeah, there's a lot of
people pleasers in the world,
552
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,200
and I've been a people pleaser
in the past saying yes, and
553
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,830
smiling. But if we're going to
we're going to drive forward our
554
00:34:49,830 --> 00:34:54,300
businesses. We have to critique
and provide a different
555
00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:57,270
perspective and look at all of
the different perspectives
556
00:34:57,300 --> 00:35:01,710
relative to an option. Our feet
Chehra requirement a product
557
00:35:01,710 --> 00:35:05,010
development or service
development idea. And I think
558
00:35:05,940 --> 00:35:09,930
resilience, stress management,
stakeholder engagement, they've
559
00:35:09,930 --> 00:35:12,960
all got to come into the water
come into play for us to be
560
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,550
confident to be the critical
friend. But the friendship pies,
561
00:35:17,550 --> 00:35:20,580
we're doing it with positive
intent, asking those questions.
562
00:35:20,580 --> 00:35:24,480
We're talking about Joe earlier,
asking it to be difficult. We're
563
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,810
asking it because it's important
that we get alignment, and we
564
00:35:27,810 --> 00:35:32,700
make considered decisions. And I
think I'm not sure whether or
565
00:35:32,700 --> 00:35:35,670
not I put it in the survey
answers or not. But there's
566
00:35:35,670 --> 00:35:38,460
often like a tyranny of the
urgent let's just get something
567
00:35:38,460 --> 00:35:41,550
delivered. Yeah. There's a
product development team
568
00:35:41,550 --> 00:35:44,100
waiting. There's we've hired
some developers, can you write
569
00:35:44,100 --> 00:35:47,880
the user stories kind of
mindset? And sometimes we got to
570
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,630
be the ones that say, Hang on a
minute, why are we doing this
571
00:35:51,630 --> 00:35:54,570
change? And is it the
appropriate thing to do? And
572
00:35:54,570 --> 00:35:58,050
that's not always going to make
us popular? Whilst we're doing
573
00:35:58,050 --> 00:35:59,160
it with the positive intent?
574
00:35:59,580 --> 00:36:03,750
Joe Newbert: Yeah. Yeah.
Honestly, we love right. That's
575
00:36:03,750 --> 00:36:07,470
what you're saying. I remember a
phrase once that was used, I
576
00:36:07,470 --> 00:36:10,140
forget where I heard it. But it
said something along the lines
577
00:36:10,140 --> 00:36:13,500
of a friend is somebody who says
good things behind your back and
578
00:36:13,500 --> 00:36:17,940
bad things to your face. You
know, and I've always thought
579
00:36:17,940 --> 00:36:20,160
that, you know, you do want the
kind of people who are not as
580
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,800
you're going to say, just give
you the answers to please you
581
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,230
but but rather give you
something that's going to help
582
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,890
you take a critical look at
yourself and move yourself.
583
00:36:30,450 --> 00:36:38,010
forwards. Another thing with
your with your sort of view on
584
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:43,440
prototyping a B testing as well,
which which comes back to
585
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,500
something you said right at the
start as well, is the need for
586
00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:52,260
collaboration around that you've
talked about listening, but when
587
00:36:52,260 --> 00:36:56,460
it comes to just engaging with
people, working with people,
588
00:36:56,790 --> 00:37:00,840
what particular sort of changes
do you perhaps see in in the way
589
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,130
that we operate with those roles
that support us? And we support
590
00:37:05,130 --> 00:37:05,580
back
591
00:37:07,050 --> 00:37:09,450
Unknown: to do you mean, in
terms of the other change
592
00:37:09,450 --> 00:37:10,440
professional roles?
593
00:37:10,710 --> 00:37:13,320
Joe Newbert: Yeah, yeah,
business as well, business
594
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:13,890
roles.
595
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,490
Unknown: I think we've got to
get more inquisitive about what
596
00:37:17,490 --> 00:37:21,690
are the differences between the
different roles? I think
597
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:26,640
empathy, understanding where
people are coming from, we're
598
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,160
going to have to also,
unfortunately, not look
599
00:37:29,190 --> 00:37:31,470
particularly exciting,
necessarily, but look at
600
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,810
principles of governance, how do
we co create value with, for
601
00:37:36,810 --> 00:37:40,920
example, a change manager or
product owner? How do we set up
602
00:37:42,270 --> 00:37:47,700
an environment whereby there's
trust, there's empowerment,
603
00:37:47,730 --> 00:37:53,130
there's psychological safety,
there's a ability to show for
604
00:37:53,130 --> 00:37:56,700
example, strengths and
vulnerabilities with those other
605
00:37:56,700 --> 00:38:00,210
change professionals that you're
working with this, there's a
606
00:38:00,660 --> 00:38:05,430
there's a whole lot of work
they're required to engender are
607
00:38:05,430 --> 00:38:10,290
described as a collaborative
team. And it's not just right,
608
00:38:10,290 --> 00:38:13,560
let's have a workshop and
collaborate. There's more to it
609
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,840
than that, you've got to build
the relationships and some of
610
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,160
the best working relationships
that I've had, of those where I
611
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,010
spend time with the folks that
I'm working with, really get to
612
00:38:23,010 --> 00:38:28,140
know them. Go out for lunch with
someone and I know in these kind
613
00:38:28,140 --> 00:38:32,970
of post COVID world that might
seem strange, but you know,
614
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,180
sitting in going for a coffee
with someone in a in an in
615
00:38:36,180 --> 00:38:41,100
person bases. I think there's
value in there, and we have to
616
00:38:41,100 --> 00:38:45,060
make the time to do it. You can
do it in a virtual context.
617
00:38:45,060 --> 00:38:48,090
Absolutely. But you've still got
to prioritize the time to get to
618
00:38:48,090 --> 00:38:51,780
know your colleagues and to
create that environment. It also
619
00:38:51,780 --> 00:38:54,750
requires a lot of leadership and
I do think the BA is a leader,
620
00:38:54,780 --> 00:38:59,580
we have to show leadership in
the aspects on that I'm
621
00:38:59,580 --> 00:39:03,810
discussing in terms of creating
culture of psychological safety
622
00:39:03,810 --> 00:39:07,140
and trust, listening to
colleagues being able to share
623
00:39:07,140 --> 00:39:09,930
strengths, weaknesses,
vulnerabilities, we've got to
624
00:39:09,930 --> 00:39:14,160
show leadership in that space.
In order to help create this
625
00:39:14,250 --> 00:39:17,220
this culture where we can we can
actually collaborate with the
626
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,310
with other change professionals
with our business counterparts
627
00:39:20,310 --> 00:39:21,000
and colleagues.
628
00:39:21,299 --> 00:39:26,729
Joe Newbert: Ya know, it's not
easy, you know, thought that
629
00:39:26,729 --> 00:39:29,069
popped into my head when you
when you mentioned the work of
630
00:39:29,069 --> 00:39:32,699
workshop there is you know, like
a workshop is in a room we
631
00:39:32,699 --> 00:39:37,199
perhaps need to make our daily
work or workshop so that we're
632
00:39:37,199 --> 00:39:41,399
working collaboratively with
people it becomes like more like
633
00:39:41,399 --> 00:39:45,269
the day to day than just that,
that once off or eight hour
634
00:39:45,269 --> 00:39:50,759
thing that we have a lot of the
ideas I mean, we haven't really
635
00:39:50,759 --> 00:39:53,429
covered business architecture
today, but you drop that in,
636
00:39:53,429 --> 00:39:56,429
we've dropped in service design,
we've talked about customer
637
00:39:56,429 --> 00:39:59,099
experience, we've talked about
tools, we've talked about
638
00:39:59,429 --> 00:40:04,259
chatting EPD repositories been
able to ask the right questions,
639
00:40:04,379 --> 00:40:10,499
get the right data, make some
insightful decisions about it. I
640
00:40:10,499 --> 00:40:12,929
think we've blown the top off
business analysis,
641
00:40:14,159 --> 00:40:17,909
Unknown: throwing the kitchen
sink at some things. Apologies
642
00:40:17,909 --> 00:40:18,539
for that.
643
00:40:19,650 --> 00:40:22,170
Joe Newbert: Open is great,
right? Like, like, that's where
644
00:40:22,170 --> 00:40:25,830
we're here? Because I'm a great
believer that Yeah, we don't
645
00:40:25,830 --> 00:40:29,130
have the answers, but let's
start talking about it. And if
646
00:40:29,130 --> 00:40:31,590
we don't talk about it, then
we're not ever gonna know that
647
00:40:31,590 --> 00:40:36,090
there's a question that needs
answering. But I feel like you
648
00:40:36,090 --> 00:40:40,860
know, you've set a bar, a new
bar, perhaps of the potential.
649
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:45,990
And now I'm beginning to think,
how do we realize this potential
650
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:50,460
sort of where we are now, to get
in there? What sort of things do
651
00:40:50,460 --> 00:40:51,930
we need to start doing?
652
00:40:52,500 --> 00:40:55,860
Unknown: So I'm really excited
about it. Genuinely, I think
653
00:40:55,860 --> 00:41:00,540
this professional discipline has
a lot of potential. It's got
654
00:41:00,540 --> 00:41:03,660
risks, it's got threats,
absolutely. But where do we
655
00:41:03,660 --> 00:41:07,500
start with we start with a
conversation job. And in PA, you
656
00:41:07,500 --> 00:41:11,280
know, you're you're starting
that conversation by launching
657
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,220
this podcast and doing what
you're doing grow, you know,
658
00:41:14,820 --> 00:41:18,720
meeting and working with other
believable folk in this
659
00:41:18,720 --> 00:41:23,730
discipline, and sharing the
ideas and concepts, doing doing,
660
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,360
doing work in our respective
communities and cross cross the
661
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:32,370
communities. We've, it's all of
our jobs to do this as no one
662
00:41:32,370 --> 00:41:36,210
person's job. I think, I think
the professional bodies have a
663
00:41:36,210 --> 00:41:39,810
role to play. I think original
practitioners have a role to
664
00:41:39,810 --> 00:41:48,030
play. And I think it's exciting,
but I don't I don't have the
665
00:41:48,030 --> 00:41:53,010
answers to GE, I don't know how
we get to this point where the
666
00:41:53,010 --> 00:41:57,840
BA is skilled, competent, and
confident in the fields of
667
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,780
business architecture, business,
service design, and business
668
00:42:00,780 --> 00:42:04,440
analysis, unable to manifest
positive strategically aligned
669
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,250
change outcomes, no matter where
they do that work. Wherever that
670
00:42:08,250 --> 00:42:13,710
is in the world. That's like a,
I think I'll be working towards
671
00:42:13,710 --> 00:42:18,630
that. Towards the end of my
career, until the very last day
672
00:42:18,630 --> 00:42:22,230
of my business analysis career
whenever it is that I retire, I
673
00:42:22,230 --> 00:42:24,810
don't know when that will be,
but I might even be working on
674
00:42:24,810 --> 00:42:29,190
it post retirement. I've seen
this as a, I don't see this is
675
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:33,480
not 10 year thing, this might be
beyond that. But it's we've got
676
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,840
to get to work with it. And
we're having this conversation
677
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:41,310
and the conversations that we we
have with others all the time,
678
00:42:41,310 --> 00:42:45,690
don't it's part of this work.
But it's it's no one there's no
679
00:42:45,690 --> 00:42:49,140
one silver bullet, I think
there's no I'll go do this and
680
00:42:49,530 --> 00:42:52,890
it's fixed. What are your ideas?
Joe? How do we get to move
681
00:42:52,890 --> 00:42:57,930
towards this confident,
competent, high quality, be a
682
00:42:57,930 --> 00:43:03,540
professional of the future? I
know that want your thoughts.
683
00:43:04,020 --> 00:43:06,180
Joe Newbert: You're the first
person who asked me a question.
684
00:43:08,790 --> 00:43:16,620
It depends how about Yeah, have
we got another 4045 minutes?
685
00:43:16,650 --> 00:43:20,130
It's complex. But I like what
you say it's about having
686
00:43:20,130 --> 00:43:24,900
conversations. And that's
exactly why this pod started. I
687
00:43:24,900 --> 00:43:28,230
don't believe that any one
person has got an answer. But I
688
00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:32,220
do believe a collective a
community, you know, a consensus
689
00:43:32,220 --> 00:43:36,870
around some ideas, the sowing of
seeds through people who listen
690
00:43:36,870 --> 00:43:41,040
to this, and it adds then add
some sort of difference to what
691
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,610
they were thinking or it
completes an idea that it that
692
00:43:44,610 --> 00:43:49,050
it had, that they had. And I
think together, we then sort of
693
00:43:49,050 --> 00:43:52,920
come along on this journey, and
we take a path forward. And I
694
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:58,740
think I think it's gonna be a
long path, like you say, we're
695
00:43:58,740 --> 00:44:00,960
probably not going to see the
end of it. I mean, well, the
696
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,250
future is always there, right?
It moves as we move, but we're
697
00:44:05,250 --> 00:44:08,940
not going to see the end of it
anytime soon. So as long as
698
00:44:08,940 --> 00:44:11,880
we're on the right path, and we
start walking down the path, I
699
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:17,100
think that's the best thing that
we can, that we can do. And
700
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:20,370
anybody listening, as I've just
highlighted, if if you want to
701
00:44:20,370 --> 00:44:23,790
come on this pod, if you want to
have a seat in one of these
702
00:44:23,790 --> 00:44:27,540
chairs and have a conversation,
please do future business
703
00:44:27,540 --> 00:44:31,680
analyst.com forward slash
survey, fill that in book
704
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,530
yourself a slot on the show, and
I look forward to having a
705
00:44:34,530 --> 00:44:39,030
conversation with you. Which is
probably also a good time to say
706
00:44:39,030 --> 00:44:43,200
thank you for the conversation.
Jonathan. It's been wonderful to
707
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:47,130
chat with you. I appreciate you
throwing your kitchen at me.
708
00:44:48,270 --> 00:44:52,350
It's been fun. And yeah, I'm
sure this is the start of a
709
00:44:52,350 --> 00:44:55,170
couple of more conversations
that you and I will have maybe
710
00:44:55,410 --> 00:44:57,780
offline but thanks for coming
on.
711
00:44:58,380 --> 00:45:00,390
Unknown: Brilliant. Thank you
for your time, Joe. Thank you
712
00:45:00,390 --> 00:45:01,080
very much