FBA 007 Samuel Gazimbi: Extending Your Business Analysis Licence

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Joe Newbert: Hey everyone, it's
Joe. Welcome to another episode
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of the future business analyst
podcast. My guest today is
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Samuel Gazimbi, business analyst
consultant with assurity
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consulting. Now most people come
on the show like me to say a
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little bit of good words about
their business analysis
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expertise, but but not Samuel.
Now he wants me to let you know
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avid football, Easter, Real
Madrid. Welcome to the show,
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Samuel. Thanks for joining me
today.
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Samuel Gazimbi: Hey, thanks a
lot, Joe, for having me and Hala
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married.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah, we've got
enough to contend with with the
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future of business analysis. I'm
not going to bring up the
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contentious topic of football
and football teams. I love your
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story. Samuel. I followed your
story closely. I think it's a
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great story. I've been fortunate
I've been blessed to be a part
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of your story. times as well.
But for those people who perhaps
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don't yet know you so well, why
don't you just share a little
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bit of that? Just just recap
sort of how you started and
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where you are today?
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Samuel Gazimbi: Yeah, thanks a
lot, Joe. I think maybe you
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might have understated your role
in that story. I think you're a
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very big part of mine, and a lot
of other people, their comments
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and Bob with story when we
started off. But to your to
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answer your question. I think my
story kind of starts around
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about 2014 2015. I was working
in an insurance and financial
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services company in Zimbabwe and
Harare. And basically, I was
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working in IT support, mostly in
infrastructure, a little bit of
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system support, etc. At that
point in time. And I was kind of
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having to think about where I
wanted to go with my career,
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like, possibly in the next 20
years, where will they see
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myself? Maybe when I was turning
40? What kind of a job would I
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be doing? And to say the least,
I mean, I wasn't overly excited
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to be carrying around network
cables, or, you know, pitching
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switches and that kind of thing.
And before two years old, I
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think that was just not for me.
So I started to kind of think
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around, what what could that
future look like, for me, I
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loved the stuff that we did in
it, I love how we power the
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business and how you know,
everybody in business was kind
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of dependent on what we did to
kind of get their stuff done.
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But I also kind of felt a sense
of loss of the fact that we
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seemed so far away and removed
from, you know, the influence
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and opportunity to kind of
influence what the business was
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actually doing. And for me, I
think that's where it begins.
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Because I started them
researching, did I need to maybe
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leave my IT career behind in
order to get maybe into some
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sort of a business role? What
could that future look like? And
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somewhere on the internet, I
stumbled across this thing,
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which was called the business
analysis. And to be honest, for
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me, I think when I first looked
at it and read about it and
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stuff, it it probably sounded or
I thought it was maybe more
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business, less it. Okay, but the
more I kind of discovered it,
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and I think connected with you
guys and the community that was
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in South Africa was obviously in
Zimbabwe, it wasn't a big thing.
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Yet, there wasn't a lot of
activity, if any around it. And
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yeah, connecting with you guys
and trying to find other fellow
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practitioners in Zimbabwe is
what basically led me down this
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path that I find myself in. And
I don't know, it's a long story,
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we should probably have a
different conversation around
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it. But to summarize it, I found
Joe Newbert Adria, re enforced
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in the IBA South Africa
community. And basically, we
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salvaged some practitioners in
Zimbabwe started what became the
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business analysis community of
Zimbabwe, now, a registered
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chapter, I think approximately
eight, nine years later. So
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yeah, it's been quite a gem.
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Joe Newbert: It's a remarkable
story. I mean, like, well, well
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done to you for for founding the
Zimbabwean chapter, as you say,
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sort of. Well, I don't I'm not
sure that salvage is the right
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word, but But you know,
constructing, constructing the
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community that you have, there
is just I mean, it really is. It
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really is incredible. An
incredible moment, I think, and
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I remembered the passion, the
people there had for this, it
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was just quite incredible. And
now, I guess you brought us to
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the present day here We are so
so rather than looking to the
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past, let's perhaps cast our eye
a little bit to the future.
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Based on your experience, you
know, that you've had in
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business analysis, what sort of
things? Can you see that perhaps
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lie ahead for us?
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Samuel Gazimbi: I think
generally for, for business
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analysts, I think, at this point
in time, I can say for sure that
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I've seen what's been a gradual
shift. I remember some of the
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first conferences I attended
around BA, they there was a very
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overarching talk around, you
know, understanding what the
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role is. It was very technique
focused. So there was a lot of,
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I don't know, maybe, because
that's where it wasn't my
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journey. But it felt to me there
was a lot of discovery, you
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know, about BA, who are we?
What's our, you know, what's our
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space, our place in this whole?
Business and Technology space?
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And I've, I'd like to think that
there's been a shift, in my
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opinion, in the past couple of
years, I think, a lot more post
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COVID. Towards, what will
business analysis be in the
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future? Possibly, maybe because
of the whole pandemic situation,
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people started kind of thinking
about the future a lot more. And
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obviously, your career a very
big part of that. But I think
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what I see as changed, and this
kind of the conversation now is
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more about what will be a be in
the future? Where do we find
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ourselves, people seem to have
come to an acceptance of the
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general definitions of what the
business analyst role is, where
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it fits in within the business,
the business structures, and
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what kind of value we bring. And
now we're kind of looking at
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defining where to from here,
what kind of influence can we
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have going into the future? So
that's kind of been my
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experience of the evolution of
where we've been and where we
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are with business analysis right
now.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah, I think
you're right, I think we're at a
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crossroads, aren't we? I think
there's a lot of thought that
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going into sort of, you know,
what's next, because we are
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going through quite an
incredible shift at the moment.
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Just just just from a human
perspective, I think with things
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like the pandemic that you've
mentioned, but also from a
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technology perspective, with
things like AI, suddenly on our,
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on our doorstep. Let's talk
about that a little bit about
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that definition of business
analysis. Tell me in your mind,
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what is it? You did mention that
sort of we've been struggling a
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little bit perhaps to sort of
get an identity. So in terms of
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you finding your identity in
business analysis, what is that?
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Samuel Gazimbi: Well, for me
long story, short, you're in
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MFA, this might become a
recurring thing. For me,
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business analysis is about
value. It's about discovering
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value. It's about facilitating
the discovery of value, it's
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about managing that value that
you know, through the evolution
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or the delivery of that value.
So whatever that may look like,
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it may be a technical solution,
it may be process change, it may
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be, you know, the strategy
setting, etc. But I believe that
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business analysis is about
facilitating a discovery of
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value managing that value, and
possibly can planning for the
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future of that value. Really, I
don't know if that's a bit high
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level, if you want me to go a
little bit deeper, what I think,
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but yeah, that's where I feel
like business analysis sits for
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me.
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Joe Newbert: Okay, well, I'm
happy for you to steer this
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conversation, wherever you'd
like to like to steer it. My job
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here is really just like a
conversation you I'd like to
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understand what you see what
you've experienced what you
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think I've got, I think you've
got tremendous experience, and I
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value what it is that you see.
And using that word value, let
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me let me focus on it for a
while, I want to go back to that
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little bit of perhaps not
knowing our identity again, as
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well. I think bas have often
struggled to sort of say, This
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is who we are, this is what we
do this and get that value
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across to people. And I'm
actually going to circle back to
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your beginnings here with the
with the chapter in Zimbabwe,
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because what I will be keen to
hear from you is to grow a
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chapter to you in a country that
didn't really have much volume
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of business analysts. You had to
be quite persuasive. You had to
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persevere. You had to influence
and so part of that I assume,
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and maybe you're going to tell
me I'm wrong here but it's
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getting across the value of
business and now losses to
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people so that you could create
that community? What kind of
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guidance? Perhaps can you? Can
you give me to sort of help
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convey value to the IRS that
might not quite understand what
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it is that we do?
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Samuel Gazimbi: Yeah, I think
you're you're absolutely right.
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You're it's a lot of
negotiating. It's a lot of
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influencing. I think that's a
big part of it. I think, number
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one, for me, was the fact that
no kind of speak, in reference
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to that whole experience, but
also, to answer your question,
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for me, number one was just
having the confidence, the
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knowledge, the security, of
being in our, in my own skin,
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you know, as a business analyst,
so literally, you're gonna have
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somebody come and ask you what
is business analysis to start
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with, you know, and they
probably genuinely do not have
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any idea of it, they're probably
not encountered anybody who
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works in this space. And I think
a big part of that is, number
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one, just knowing the
constituency that you were
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working with. And for for us at
that point in time in Zimbabwe,
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what I did know for a fact was
that generally, industry was
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always kind of looking forward,
trying to catch up on the next
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trend, what could be next,
whatever gives us the next
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advantage. So that was pretty
useful. The fact that people are
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actively looking for that
knowledge. And I think that also
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translates to this part of the
conversation for us as business
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analysts, I think, we have a
very good place to start from,
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because generally, people want
to know what it is. And then the
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second thing was being able to
kind of translate to something
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that's relatable to people. So I
know one of the things that
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maybe we have a lot to do, as
practitioners as business
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analyst is probably liking
ourselves to something else that
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we are not. And I think people
can kind of become pretty
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territorial. But oh, no, we're
not this, were a lot more days
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or something like that. But for
me, again, the most important
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thing is, can I translate? Or
can I transport this person from
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where they are to understanding
what the business analyst does.
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And in that interaction, if I
need to be something, or to
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present myself as somebody
differently, from what a pure BA
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is, just to get that
conversation across the line,
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then I was happy to do that. So
you'll find like in Zimbabwe, a
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lot of our conversations will
probably start from a project
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management perspective, because
people are familiar with project
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managers, and then trying to
explain to them like, you know,
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the context that project
managers work, they are going to
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work with software development
teams, if it's a software
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project that is, and then as a
business analyst, this is where
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I'm going to come in, I'm not
necessarily going to be the
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project manager and manage the
time costs and all those things.
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But I'm actually more interested
in delivering value between the
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business and the technology
team. So once you kind of built
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a context around it, that was
relatable to the person that
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you're speaking to, then all of
a sudden, it becomes a
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conversation in which they're
kind of interested in. And I
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think the other thing that I
would say is kind of, for those
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of us who get the opportunity,
which is what I think I did, I
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got an opportunity to lead the
conversation, I think it's very
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important for us to be able to,
you know, just be brave about
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it, go out there and have those
conversations, because what we
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found is, once you start
facilitating those
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conversations, a lot of people
come out from the shadows, and
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they relate. They're like, Oh,
yeah, you know what, actually, I
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think I've been doing business
analysis, but at my job, we call
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it whatever other type of a role
or I think I recognize some of
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the tests that you're talking
about. And you know, you give
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others an opportunity to come
out of the woodwork, so to
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speak, when you can shine the
light. And I think that's always
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going to be a call for for
business analysts. Sometimes
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we're just going to need to take
a step on that pedestal, it's
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pretty challenging, you can put
you in a vulnerable position to
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hold views, you know, how the
world is, maybe on LinkedIn,
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social media, etc. Holding a
view, it can either constantly
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people or it can inspire them,
but I think it's a
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responsibility that we need to
carry through a bit more with
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the PA profession.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah, I agree with
you. I think having
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conversations and talking as you
say it can polarize right, like
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some people can agree some can
disagree. And that's okay. It
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sparks a conversation. I think
through those conversations, we
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start to understand all of the
nuances and all of the different
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different aspects of this
because as you say, business
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analysis does happen under many
different sort of names out
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there. Yeah. I also liked it.
Yeah, it was a nice little
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tactic that you've got there.
It's not quite the analogy to
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use because business analysts
aren't wolves, but it's a bit
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like a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Clothing isn't like, I will go
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in as a project manager, but
really underneath I'm a business
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analyst. And then as you say
that the job, the jobs in their
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goals are no different really
are they is to move this to
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create some change and to move
people from point A to point B,
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I think that's a really good
little wedge in that you had
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there. Yeah. Another couple of
things that I like to what you
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said is one having the skills
and the confidence or having the
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confidence in in your skills.
And that made me think of like
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foundational skills, you know,
transferable skills, the skills
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that will live on regardless?
What kind of skills into the
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future, do you think we have now
that are going to remain like a
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key part of what we do?
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Samuel Gazimbi: I think the one
that comes top of mind for me,
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is it skills around relationship
building, primarily. And I think
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I picked this one more
deliberately, because I think a
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lot of times are conversations
divided into, you know, the
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technical stuff, the technology,
what, what techniques do you use
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to maybe do elicit requirements
elicitation, or to facilitate
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this and that, but for me, I
think the biggest skills and
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power that we bring as Bas is
probably relationship building,
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being able to connect people
together in projects, regardless
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of what their background is,
what roles they're on the
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project to fulfill. So I think
that's a very fundamental skill
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that we'll carry on, and that we
probably need to nature a bit
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more going into the future. I
think another very big one is
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around contextual thinking, you
know, being able to bring about
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to bring together different
ideas and different perspectives
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and domain knowledge, whatever
technical tools and stuff that
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we have, and being able to pick
the correct or the most
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applicable one at a moment in
time. I think, for me, those
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will be the tool that I go to
the most. Um, I try to kind of
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stay away from being maybe
picking a specific technique or
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something like that and say,
look, I think maybe user
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stories, if we're talking about
HL are going to be the way
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forward for me, because I think
those things always will evolve.
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And I think right now, we
actually seeing a lot of
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evolution in the tool space. And
what's been interesting for me
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to see if that has happened, is
kind of how an evolution in the
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tool space has had a ripple
effect around VAs and kind of
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thinking of what we do now,
since tools can do this, or AI
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has come into the picture. So
what's next for us? Is it the
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end of BA as we know it, it is
see, I don't think maybe tool
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that necessarily our biggest
asset that we bring to the table
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I think relationship building,
and being able to think
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conceptually and contextualize
different issues and variables
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is very critical for us.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah, those soft
skills, relationship building
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rapport, just just being able to
hold conversations with people
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probably having some compassion
and empathy for them. To
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definitely there. So okay, so
bigger focus on that set. So you
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feel like some of these
techniques are going to go away
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as well. Did I? Did I sort of
hear in there? I'm not sure if I
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did here. So let me clarify. But
did I hear in there that you
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think that maybe some of these
techniques could be something
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that can sort of AI might assist
with in future? Is that what I
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heard?
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Samuel Gazimbi: Yeah,
definitely. I mean, obviously,
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the tech, the technology will
keep evolving the things. Look,
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I'm gonna give a very basic
example, if maybe I don't know
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how many years or years ago,
what business analysts were
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expected to do was to document
or write down the requirements,
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and possibly within computers,
then probably the best business
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analyst is somebody who will
wrote very well, pen and paper
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and a great handwriting that
everybody could read whether
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this project management, testers
or developers, and then all of a
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sudden somebody brings this
thing's like, oh, yeah, there's
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a computer now you can actually
type it doesn't matter what your
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handwriting is, like, the fonts,
you know, define and maybe
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somebody's out of a job because
they had a great handwriting and
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that doesn't matter anymore. So
for me, the tools are just, they
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will be what they will be, the
technology will always evolve.
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And, you know, it basically
helps us to be more productive.
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And obviously there's a lot of
productivity tools that are
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being in there. about AI. But I
think, to your point, the soft
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skills, the capacity for us to
interact and to kind of find
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value in interactions, and kind
of expose that value and help
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people to kind of be on the same
page and move along the
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delivery, the delivery
lifecycle, those things will
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always hold, regardless of what
tools were using to actuate. The
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solutions. Yeah.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah, I love your
analogy, it. It reminds me of a
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thought that I had delivering a
presentation a few years back.
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But at some point, there wasn't
a printing press. So it's much
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the same. It's much the same as
your handwriting to compute it.
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You know, there was calligraphy
and people were writing and then
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suddenly Guttenberg in the
printing press. And I can
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imagine at the time that that
came, it was enormous disruption
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all of these jobs. Right, we're
no longer needed. It just wasn't
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a thing, suddenly, like paper
and ink are a thing. And it will
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change. And I'm sure at that
time, the people who are around
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that felt an enormous amount of
anxiety about the changes that
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were happening around them in
their professional space,
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because of the guts and books,
introduction of the printing
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press. And, and perhaps we're
going through a moment like that
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at the moment, perhaps yet, a
big chunk of the BA work does
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go, and then we need to focus on
a different side of this coin.
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Samuel Gazimbi: Exactly. So I
think that just as you've kind
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of explained it, it kind of
brings me back to that whole
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value compensation. So if value
is made up of different levers
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and kind of like weights on a
balance, we've kind of moved
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maybe what got us in the door
was the technical skills, the
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ability to, you know, manipulate
a set, or maybe if it's a
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software tool, or an ability to
do a certain technical piece of
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work, but maybe what keeps us in
the door is as shifting in
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courts, right, in this case,
towards, you know, the skills
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that are required in this new
context that we live in. And for
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me, I think that could possibly
be the soft skills. Yeah,
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because if everybody knows maybe
how to write requirements, is
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that going to put bas out of
job?
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Joe Newbert: Yeah. Another thing
that you said earlier, actively
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looking for advantages when you
were talking about organizations
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in Zimbabwe actively looking for
advantages. It that's a good
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trait of a BA, too, right?
Curiosity. Advantages value, I
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suppose. And perhaps another way
of saying value sounds a bit
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like a mindset that we need to
have talked to me about ba
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mindset and what sort of mindset
we'll have to have going forward
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in the future if we are to be
promoting this value and
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building these relationships.
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Samuel Gazimbi: I think, I
think, number one, a possibility
351
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mindset. And by possibility
mindset, I'm hoping that as we
352
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go along and have these
conversations and you know, ask
353
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ourselves, the tough questions,
we move from a place where, you
354
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know, we were in a bit of an
imposter syndrome. Do we even
355
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deserve a seat at this table?
Are we good enough to be here?
356
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How can we keep proving to
everyone else around us that we
357
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deserve to be here kind of
mindset more to towards a
358
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mindset that says, hey, look,
we're here already? How can we
359
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best participate in what is
being created right now? How can
360
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we best help the people that we
are working with? What do we
361
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have in our tool? In our
toolkit, that's going to make a
362
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difference. How is this
particular project is
363
00:24:18,929 --> 00:24:21,749
particularly initiative going to
be different? Because I'm here,
364
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and I'm a BA, and I have these
experiences. I think we've spent
365
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a lot of time trying to find
ourselves. And I guess, I don't
366
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know for sure we ever will have
a day when you say hey guys,
367
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everybody ring the bell, we
found the pin the tail on the
368
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pony. We know what this is. Or
if we just need a mindset that
369
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says, hey, look, we're going to,
we're going to accept that
370
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there's going to be some level
of ambiguity and there's always
371
00:24:49,979 --> 00:24:52,469
going to be a certain level of
flux. And that's okay. We're
372
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okay with the fact that we're
growing. We're always evolving.
373
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But for now, we're going to
focus on based on what we know
374
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about who we are where we've
come from and what skills and
375
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tools we have, what's the best
way for us to contribute? And I
376
00:25:06,449 --> 00:25:09,599
think I think for me, that's
that's, that would be a very
377
00:25:09,689 --> 00:25:16,919
powerful mindful mind. What do
you call it? mindset shift that
378
00:25:16,919 --> 00:25:21,899
we can have SBA SBAS, maybe
let's have more conversations
379
00:25:21,899 --> 00:25:26,279
about how best can we
contribute? And maybe a little
380
00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:29,879
bit less of, do we deserve to be
here kind of conversations?
381
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,450
Joe Newbert: Yeah. Yeah, I think
impostor syndrome like that
382
00:25:36,450 --> 00:25:39,420
there's, there's almost a lack
of confidence. Like, we're not
383
00:25:39,420 --> 00:25:43,260
sure whether we're teetering on
the edge. I like the idea of of
384
00:25:43,260 --> 00:25:47,100
showing up with a little more
oomph, you know, and saying,
385
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here we are, we know. Value.
Yeah, yeah. You mentioned in
386
00:25:55,260 --> 00:26:00,180
there another Mindset
possibility mindset, I want to
387
00:26:00,180 --> 00:26:06,510
come back to that. As Bas, one
of the things that we do is come
388
00:26:06,510 --> 00:26:09,870
up with options, right, you can
do it this way. Or you can do it
389
00:26:09,870 --> 00:26:13,590
that way, this way, is going to
cost this much and take so long.
390
00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:16,800
And that way is going to cost
this much and take so long. We
391
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:21,330
present options, and we weigh up
and we recommend and somebody
392
00:26:21,330 --> 00:26:25,770
will make a decision. I feel
like options are right in front
393
00:26:25,770 --> 00:26:30,000
of us like they're here. They're
a course of action that we need
394
00:26:30,030 --> 00:26:35,760
to take now. Possibilities sound
a little further away. To me,
395
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,010
that's why it sort of jumped out
at me, I'm thinking
396
00:26:38,010 --> 00:26:41,010
possibilities is a bit more
future thinking, you know, it's
397
00:26:41,010 --> 00:26:47,550
a little more just open minded
and experimental. It means that
398
00:26:47,550 --> 00:26:50,820
we perhaps have to look at the
horizon, right? Because I feel
399
00:26:50,820 --> 00:26:54,120
like we sort of look at what's
right under our nose most of the
400
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:57,090
time, but perhaps we have to
live it up and look to the
401
00:26:57,090 --> 00:27:01,950
horizon. Which leads me nicely
to, you know, what sort of
402
00:27:01,950 --> 00:27:05,940
things do you do you see on the
horizon? I mean, I know there's
403
00:27:05,970 --> 00:27:11,490
there's a i, you can talk about
that if you want to. But I'm
404
00:27:11,490 --> 00:27:14,430
wondering also, if there's
perhaps anything else that you
405
00:27:14,430 --> 00:27:15,870
see on the horizon?
406
00:27:19,170 --> 00:27:24,480
Samuel Gazimbi: For for ba
interesting, I think it
407
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:30,120
definitely, right now, AI is
kind of like, the big thing, by
408
00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:37,860
what I kind of see on the
horizon is hopefully bas staking
409
00:27:37,860 --> 00:27:43,230
a claim in the C suite. And by
staking a claim, I don't
410
00:27:43,230 --> 00:27:48,810
necessarily mean as getting the
title. I don't know what the
411
00:27:48,810 --> 00:27:52,800
title will be executive beer,
something like that, I don't
412
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:59,760
know. But more having a seat to
influence at the C suite level,
413
00:28:00,210 --> 00:28:04,080
I think a lot of what we have
right now, which is really great
414
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:09,060
that we even do get access to is
a lot of access to Swiss to C
415
00:28:09,060 --> 00:28:15,090
suite to pretty much kind of get
the DNA of what they want done
416
00:28:15,090 --> 00:28:18,450
and, you know, facilitate that
happening. That's I think that
417
00:28:18,450 --> 00:28:22,500
part is very well covered in
well done in this day and this
418
00:28:22,530 --> 00:28:28,020
age. And what I hope is, if
we've been if we keep doing
419
00:28:28,020 --> 00:28:31,800
great work with the guys and C
suite, hopefully we get
420
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,690
ourselves to a point where we
get invited to the table. And I
421
00:28:36,690 --> 00:28:39,300
think invited is kind of the
nice way of putting it. But
422
00:28:39,300 --> 00:28:43,350
otherwise, we just probably need
to get up the policy, pull the
423
00:28:43,350 --> 00:28:48,990
chair, and make ourselves
comfortable owning a bit of that
424
00:28:49,350 --> 00:28:54,540
strategy piece. And the reason I
say this is because and this is
425
00:28:54,540 --> 00:28:59,550
my thinking, I feel like maybe a
piece of why we feel like maybe
426
00:28:59,550 --> 00:29:04,440
we don't get a chance to
influence as much as we can or
427
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,340
possibly to have as much respect
as we think we should have as a
428
00:29:08,340 --> 00:29:14,790
profession is possibly because
we don't own the risk as much as
429
00:29:14,790 --> 00:29:19,620
we possibly could. I think as
bas when once we ask for a seat
430
00:29:19,620 --> 00:29:22,050
at the C suite, then we're
positive. We're saying Hey guys,
431
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:27,960
this is this is the whole pie
called risk. We're willing to
432
00:29:27,990 --> 00:29:31,680
eat the pie, and to own a piece
of this risk with you guys and
433
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,070
be part of the team and work you
know, shoulder to shoulder with
434
00:29:35,670 --> 00:29:38,940
with everybody else who's on
that table. So I'm talking about
435
00:29:38,940 --> 00:29:42,240
bas being in a position where we
can also influence and also be
436
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:47,070
part of the strategy and also on
KPIs that directly impact on
437
00:29:47,070 --> 00:29:52,350
strategy. And I think once we're
able to get into that level,
438
00:29:52,380 --> 00:29:58,920
where we were stakeholders at
that level, we also own risk,
439
00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:02,760
then we can also have a voice
that actually counts and that
440
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,420
matters. And possibly
organizations can drive better
441
00:30:06,420 --> 00:30:10,740
outcomes. Because it's no longer
we discover value somewhere down
442
00:30:10,740 --> 00:30:13,740
the chain, we actually discover
value right at the beginning
443
00:30:13,740 --> 00:30:17,760
where the hard conversations are
being had, where we're baking in
444
00:30:17,940 --> 00:30:21,060
value, and all the things that
we bring as Bas, into the
445
00:30:21,060 --> 00:30:23,790
initial conversations that are
building these organizations and
446
00:30:23,790 --> 00:30:27,540
building those objectives that
we work so hard to, you know, to
447
00:30:27,540 --> 00:30:32,310
meet and to satisfy. So, yeah, I
think
448
00:30:33,420 --> 00:30:37,020
Joe Newbert: that that's a
really interesting idea. I know,
449
00:30:37,020 --> 00:30:39,870
in your response, you dropped
the word KPIs, I was just
450
00:30:39,870 --> 00:30:44,190
thinking, how can I steer you
towards KPIs, but But you
451
00:30:44,190 --> 00:30:49,980
brought us here? So thank you.
That's a really interesting
452
00:30:49,980 --> 00:30:55,320
idea. Okay, so yeah, some some
we do as bas we have access from
453
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,460
from the top to the bottom, you
know, we're, we're that
454
00:30:59,460 --> 00:31:02,760
chameleon who can sort of blend
in and speak because it's that
455
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,960
relationship building so we can
know the words, you know, how to
456
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:12,150
build rapport with people. So we
sort of already do have a little
457
00:31:12,150 --> 00:31:16,470
in. And yeah, your idea of
walking in sitting down and
458
00:31:16,470 --> 00:31:21,150
making yourself at home, you
know, putting your feet on the
459
00:31:21,150 --> 00:31:26,220
table, almost without being
asked, as I was thinking, okay,
460
00:31:26,220 --> 00:31:30,360
but then then you gave a really
good strategy to do that. What
461
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,080
are the KPIs that matter to
them? And please give me
462
00:31:34,110 --> 00:31:37,770
ownership of those KPIs are not
necessarily all of them, one or
463
00:31:37,770 --> 00:31:43,890
two of them? And let me go away
and find some answers to make
464
00:31:43,890 --> 00:31:47,610
these KPIs better, as you say,
you're taking some ownership,
465
00:31:47,610 --> 00:31:53,340
you're sort of putting some
stake in the game. Yeah. What
466
00:31:53,340 --> 00:31:57,150
kind of KPIs might you consider?
What's what sort of things
467
00:31:57,150 --> 00:32:01,980
because you also then mentioned
that we perhaps got some lower
468
00:32:01,980 --> 00:32:04,800
level KPIs that we typically
focus on, it might be the
469
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,070
efficiency of a process, it
might be a number of dodgy
470
00:32:08,070 --> 00:32:11,700
products that are produced
errors returns, you know, it's
471
00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:16,710
all sort of low level, still
metrics, right KPIs, but what
472
00:32:16,710 --> 00:32:20,790
sort of ones at the top might we
might we start to play with?
473
00:32:23,609 --> 00:32:25,319
Samuel Gazimbi: Now, I feel like
I should have done some homework
474
00:32:25,319 --> 00:32:33,539
before I came. Off the top of my
head, no, I think I'm looking at
475
00:32:34,049 --> 00:32:38,609
the CEO, as you know, the the
head of that C suite or the
476
00:32:38,609 --> 00:32:44,939
board of execs. And obviously,
he has KPIs, I know, they
477
00:32:44,939 --> 00:32:50,639
probably have KPIs around
financial deliverables, the p&l,
478
00:32:50,669 --> 00:32:53,309
they're probably going to own
that. They we've got people
479
00:32:53,309 --> 00:32:56,519
sitting there who are owning
some stake in the marketing, the
480
00:32:56,549 --> 00:33:02,129
people owning some stake in, you
know, product delivery, etc. I
481
00:33:02,129 --> 00:33:09,419
think for for a BA, we probably
want to be in a space where,
482
00:33:10,409 --> 00:33:15,929
yeah, possibly close to how our
products perform in the market.
483
00:33:16,319 --> 00:33:19,889
So yeah, we could also possibly
take on some of I think that's
484
00:33:19,889 --> 00:33:21,929
probably going to depend on the
organization really, at the end
485
00:33:21,929 --> 00:33:25,859
of the day. But just off the top
of my head, maybe we're looking
486
00:33:25,859 --> 00:33:30,929
at things like a part of that
profit and loss is our products
487
00:33:30,929 --> 00:33:36,359
that we're producing in the
delivery lifecycle, achieving
488
00:33:36,359 --> 00:33:39,389
the KPIs that the business is
looking at, are they being
489
00:33:39,389 --> 00:33:42,809
profitable? Are they having
enough sign ons, if that's what
490
00:33:42,809 --> 00:33:48,719
we're using to measure? are they
hitting the retention marks,
491
00:33:48,749 --> 00:33:55,499
etc. And if we can get to a
place where we can define what
492
00:33:55,499 --> 00:34:00,989
those KPIs are, and possibly
match through how the BAS work
493
00:34:00,989 --> 00:34:05,159
has impacted on those right
through them, I think that will
494
00:34:05,159 --> 00:34:09,269
be a success of sorts. And that
would allow us to get into that
495
00:34:09,269 --> 00:34:13,289
conversation. Right now. I feel
like the KPIs are put on the
496
00:34:13,289 --> 00:34:17,309
project. And so whoever owns the
project, if there's a program
497
00:34:17,309 --> 00:34:21,689
manager or program exec, or
whatever, the CIO or whoever
498
00:34:21,929 --> 00:34:27,419
owns that piece, is the one who
gets the flack for it if it
499
00:34:27,659 --> 00:34:32,669
doesn't work, or the word if it
does work. But also, as a
500
00:34:32,669 --> 00:34:35,549
result, it kind of puts the
ceiling on what the BAS can
501
00:34:35,579 --> 00:34:38,459
contribute to that specific
conversation, because at the end
502
00:34:38,459 --> 00:34:41,309
of the day, there's going to be
Oh, yeah, the project team did
503
00:34:41,309 --> 00:34:44,729
this. But what did the ba do
specifically? And can we trace
504
00:34:44,729 --> 00:34:47,909
that value right through to, you
know, the highest level of
505
00:34:48,629 --> 00:34:52,259
business objectives that we're
going for? If we can, then maybe
506
00:34:52,259 --> 00:34:56,399
this person needs to be also
influencing or contributing to
507
00:34:56,459 --> 00:35:00,629
this conversation about how we
mold those two decisions at that
508
00:35:00,629 --> 00:35:03,869
level. So I know I haven't given
you a specific set, I'll
509
00:35:03,869 --> 00:35:07,199
probably need to go back, sit
down and figure this out. And it
510
00:35:07,199 --> 00:35:09,779
might just come back to you and
say, Hey, do I figure it out? I
511
00:35:09,779 --> 00:35:10,949
know the KPIs now.
512
00:35:14,849 --> 00:35:17,399
Joe Newbert: But I think I think
your answer was good. You know,
513
00:35:17,399 --> 00:35:21,659
there is a p&l there is finance.
The numbers that are appear on
514
00:35:21,659 --> 00:35:25,949
there are a result of sort of
product of sales of, you know,
515
00:35:25,979 --> 00:35:32,519
margin of customer of retention
of things like that. There's
516
00:35:32,519 --> 00:35:37,919
probably also some other ones
too, around innovation, perhaps,
517
00:35:37,919 --> 00:35:40,739
and they'll of course, be those
ones that are around sort of
518
00:35:40,739 --> 00:35:44,519
process improvement. I guess I
just said the balanced business
519
00:35:44,519 --> 00:35:48,089
scorecard there. And perhaps
we'll have some more to do with
520
00:35:48,539 --> 00:35:53,369
the planet Earth Society ethics,
I think I do think that's going
521
00:35:53,369 --> 00:35:56,969
to grow, unless you're going to
drop something in here. I mean,
522
00:35:56,969 --> 00:36:01,469
coming in coming into this
series of shows, I had a few
523
00:36:01,469 --> 00:36:05,729
ideas. And I've just, like,
there's a couple of things. And
524
00:36:05,729 --> 00:36:08,579
I've just been thinking like,
when's the right time to drop
525
00:36:08,579 --> 00:36:11,339
this in? Like if somebody gets
close to something that I've
526
00:36:11,339 --> 00:36:14,519
been thinking about? And I feel
like, I feel like he might have
527
00:36:14,519 --> 00:36:19,019
come to the close come the
closest on this one. Yeah, an
528
00:36:19,019 --> 00:36:24,689
intrapreneur. An entrepreneur is
about building a business,
529
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,499
right, but they've probably got
skin it skin in the game. The
530
00:36:28,499 --> 00:36:33,029
intrapreneur is somebody inside
an existing organization, but
531
00:36:33,029 --> 00:36:36,209
probably with that
entrepreneurial mindset. You
532
00:36:36,209 --> 00:36:41,189
talked about KPIs, you talked
about owning some risk, like
533
00:36:41,189 --> 00:36:46,469
being a part of it. Earlier, you
mentioned the actively looking
534
00:36:46,469 --> 00:36:49,859
for advantages, I feel like
you've given me a lot of little
535
00:36:49,859 --> 00:36:54,899
dots that sort of build up to a
bit of an intrapreneurial ship
536
00:36:54,899 --> 00:36:57,419
definition. What do you think
about that?
537
00:37:00,210 --> 00:37:05,880
Samuel Gazimbi: I think 100% And
I think that would be business
538
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,500
analysis by its very nature
lends itself a lot to
539
00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:17,370
interpreting intrapreneurial.
mindset and capabilities. And to
540
00:37:17,370 --> 00:37:21,360
some extent, I mean, depending
on how much scope a specific
541
00:37:21,390 --> 00:37:25,200
organization will give you, you
kind of do run a little business
542
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:31,200
inside of the bigger business of
the organization. Because look
543
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,520
at it this way you are there
when strategy is kind of made
544
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:41,250
and handed down. And you kind of
own realize the realization or
545
00:37:41,250 --> 00:37:45,630
the actualization of that
strategy. And strategy basically
546
00:37:45,630 --> 00:37:48,360
cuts across right from number
one, what is the surface? What's
547
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,330
the product to number two? How
are we going to measure it being
548
00:37:51,330 --> 00:37:53,580
successful? And all those
things? And number three, how
549
00:37:53,580 --> 00:37:55,680
are we going to deliver it? Who
are we delivering it to all
550
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,200
those things, these techniques,
these skills, these tools that
551
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,170
we use as Bas, that kind of
touch and try to answer those
552
00:38:01,170 --> 00:38:03,900
questions for the different
state stakeholders around the
553
00:38:03,900 --> 00:38:09,870
project. And yeah, 100%, that
would very much be
554
00:38:09,900 --> 00:38:15,510
intrapreneurial. I think what
what that for me hearing you say
555
00:38:15,510 --> 00:38:18,840
that what that takes me to is
back to the issue of license
556
00:38:18,870 --> 00:38:25,050
again. And it sponsibility how
much does the organization trust
557
00:38:25,050 --> 00:38:29,970
you or trust us as a
professional as bas. to own
558
00:38:30,030 --> 00:38:35,130
that? And how much of it do they
trust of trust us to go out and
559
00:38:35,130 --> 00:38:40,200
make decisions around? And the
more we can kind of prove that
560
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,920
yes, it's perfectly fine, you
can give a business analyst, you
561
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,040
know, just, hey, this is what
we're looking to do. And then
562
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,620
let them go and figure out all
the little bits and pieces that
563
00:38:49,620 --> 00:38:53,670
make that thing happen. And
actually let them run with it or
564
00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:58,260
build a team around that and
deliver that thing, then I think
565
00:38:58,410 --> 00:39:02,490
where we're kind of shifting
right now, I feel like business
566
00:39:02,490 --> 00:39:06,450
analysts sit in as obviously as
part of the team in a corner as
567
00:39:06,450 --> 00:39:09,990
a consultant. So I will go to
this guy to ask him his thoughts
568
00:39:09,990 --> 00:39:14,100
and his ideas or to ask him to
kind of illustrate a certain
569
00:39:14,130 --> 00:39:18,000
values and attribute of the
value chain for me, just to
570
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,060
confirm my thinking, but I will
keep ownership of this thing.
571
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,320
And, again, risk for it and go
and make sure that it's
572
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,490
delivered. But possibly, that's
something that I could hand over
573
00:39:29,490 --> 00:39:32,490
to this guy if I trusted them
enough. And I know that they're
574
00:39:32,490 --> 00:39:35,400
capable of doing it and if
they've proven that they, you
575
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:42,990
know, consistently deliver the
value. So that for me happening
576
00:39:43,050 --> 00:39:48,180
is probably at an institutional
level SBAS across the different
577
00:39:48,180 --> 00:39:51,210
levels that we work. We need to
keep putting ourselves forward
578
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:54,300
to say hey, look, we're
available, and we're willing to
579
00:39:54,300 --> 00:39:59,970
do this we and we can illustrate
that value delivered. Yeah.
580
00:40:00,810 --> 00:40:04,620
Joe Newbert: I think as you're
talking, you know, as you're
581
00:40:04,620 --> 00:40:08,130
saying, you know, have we got
the license to do it. And it's
582
00:40:08,130 --> 00:40:13,200
not to say that getting our
licenses is anytime, anytime
583
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:19,080
soon. But I think for me,
mindset is a behavior that we
584
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:23,160
have to demonstrate, that just
starts to lead us down the right
585
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,190
paths. And we might be walking
down those paths for a little
586
00:40:26,190 --> 00:40:33,000
while. But at least it's it's
the right path. word that you
587
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:40,530
used in your response, if
possibly said it in under a
588
00:40:40,530 --> 00:40:45,750
different guise in this, but
that's fluidity, like fluidity
589
00:40:45,750 --> 00:40:49,830
of Bas, in the skills and even
now with this entrepreneur, and
590
00:40:49,830 --> 00:40:54,180
you're talking about would need
a degree of fluidity when we in
591
00:40:54,180 --> 00:40:57,240
sort of exercising this kind of
mindset.
592
00:40:58,620 --> 00:41:02,970
Samuel Gazimbi: Yep, yeah, and
percent. And again, I like the
593
00:41:02,970 --> 00:41:06,810
word fluidity that you bring in,
because for me, it goes back to
594
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,470
one of the key points that we
talked about before, that as we
595
00:41:10,860 --> 00:41:14,970
go forward, it looks like, for
me, fluidity is kind of like a
596
00:41:14,970 --> 00:41:19,230
soft skill. So your ability to
recognize the context in which
597
00:41:19,230 --> 00:41:25,470
you're operating, and how best
to exercise your skills or to,
598
00:41:27,150 --> 00:41:32,280
to present yourself in a certain
context. And again, that's
599
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,620
probably not going to be like a
hard skill that I'm actually
600
00:41:34,620 --> 00:41:37,770
going to put on a on a, you
know, on some framework on a
601
00:41:37,770 --> 00:41:41,400
canvas on my computer and say,
Hey, this is the fluidity,
602
00:41:42,030 --> 00:41:45,960
construct, and etc, it's for me
more a soft skill, your ability
603
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,380
to, you know, recognize the
opportunity, your ability to
604
00:41:49,380 --> 00:41:53,730
then adjust whatever needs to be
adjusted, so that you, you
605
00:41:53,730 --> 00:41:59,070
operate at that level. And I
think, again, emphasizes the
606
00:41:59,070 --> 00:42:02,190
point that for Bas, as we go
forward, possibly, we need to
607
00:42:02,190 --> 00:42:05,730
kind of rehab, it relook at some
of those soft skills that used
608
00:42:05,730 --> 00:42:09,090
to be complimentary. And see
which ones become a bit more
609
00:42:09,090 --> 00:42:14,730
fundamental, as we move forward.
Because, again, the demands of
610
00:42:14,730 --> 00:42:17,460
the business are changing, the
stuff that we used to bring that
611
00:42:17,460 --> 00:42:22,260
maybe was had skills, you know,
getting passed on to tools into
612
00:42:22,260 --> 00:42:26,550
technology, you know, platforms
as a service, for example, maybe
613
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,750
a few years back, you would ever
be a full time on a project. And
614
00:42:31,110 --> 00:42:33,990
basically what whoever is
contracted them was doing was
615
00:42:33,990 --> 00:42:36,750
building a website. But now
we've got all these platforms,
616
00:42:36,750 --> 00:42:40,140
and they just say, hey, look, no
code, build a website. And if
617
00:42:40,140 --> 00:42:44,040
our definition of BA is somebody
who sits between the technical
618
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:48,840
team, developers, and the
business, and in this case, the
619
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,960
business and the developers have
become one person, because
620
00:42:51,990 --> 00:42:55,920
they're using a no code platform
as a service solution, then
621
00:42:55,950 --> 00:42:58,380
where does that leave the BA?
Does it mean that there is no
622
00:42:59,010 --> 00:43:02,820
value from a from pa
professional operating in that
623
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,960
project? I think there is. It's
just a little bit different
624
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,580
from, you know, what it's been
before. And the ability to
625
00:43:11,580 --> 00:43:14,730
recognize that and know what
changed, and how best to present
626
00:43:14,730 --> 00:43:18,780
myself becomes that fluidity. I
think that you're referring to
627
00:43:18,780 --> 00:43:22,560
and I think yeah, that's one for
the future. Definitely. That's
628
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:23,760
one for the President actually.
629
00:43:24,300 --> 00:43:30,990
Joe Newbert: Yeah, it is for
now. sense and respond would be
630
00:43:31,260 --> 00:43:35,430
what what I heard from you, with
this fluidity. So go in
631
00:43:35,460 --> 00:43:38,820
understand the context and know
what's required in that context.
632
00:43:38,850 --> 00:43:46,140
It's let me sense it. Let me
respond. And then that takes my
633
00:43:46,140 --> 00:43:50,070
brain to a put to a question.
Just Just a quick question to
634
00:43:50,070 --> 00:43:53,250
end off on, on here two
methodologies, because
635
00:43:53,370 --> 00:43:58,560
methodologies are hard, right?
We follow methodologies, A, then
636
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:05,700
B, then C. So you mentioned use
cases earlier, but also they
637
00:44:05,700 --> 00:44:09,360
might not be they will evolve?
Who knows in eight years time?
638
00:44:11,100 --> 00:44:15,870
Do you think we might see less
need for methodologies in our
639
00:44:15,870 --> 00:44:21,300
work? Because we do need to have
the fundamental, soft skills,
640
00:44:21,300 --> 00:44:26,460
the fundamental techniques, know
what the CEU situation calls for
641
00:44:26,460 --> 00:44:31,500
know which one to apply? And if
that's in us, then we don't need
642
00:44:31,500 --> 00:44:34,200
a recipe book to tell us how
much
643
00:44:36,690 --> 00:44:42,120
Samuel Gazimbi: okay, so I don't
know if methodology is exactly
644
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,240
the same with frameworks,
because I've been playing around
645
00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:50,400
in this framework space of late
so that's kind of what I related
646
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:57,600
to the worst. And for me, I
think, in reality, we need a way
647
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,650
to organize the world. So they
will We'll be spaced for
648
00:45:01,650 --> 00:45:04,110
methodologies I can say always,
I don't know what's gonna happen
649
00:45:04,110 --> 00:45:08,190
in the future. But I think
methodologies and frameworks
650
00:45:08,670 --> 00:45:12,900
allow us a construct in which we
can have a common or shared
651
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:17,040
understanding. So maybe how we
use them is probably what
652
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:22,530
changes. Where is it previously,
maybe they've come in some
653
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,910
context of being prescriptive.
So use this methodology or this
654
00:45:26,910 --> 00:45:30,840
framework to get this output.
Obviously, the methodology was
655
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,600
developed at a point in time,
and there was a context around
656
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:38,070
it. And so it applied, maybe now
we'll look to the methodology or
657
00:45:38,070 --> 00:45:41,760
framework to organize our
thinking. And then using those
658
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,220
skills that we've said, we're
kind of nature and going into
659
00:45:44,220 --> 00:45:49,110
the future, we decide which bits
and pieces make sense to carry
660
00:45:49,110 --> 00:45:53,340
through in this particular
interaction or whatever project
661
00:45:53,340 --> 00:45:56,970
or activity that you're
facilitating, and which bits of
662
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:01,980
that may be, is not necessary to
carry through. And then again,
663
00:46:02,580 --> 00:46:06,000
we've shifted the conversation
from I did the methodology,
664
00:46:06,030 --> 00:46:09,480
which is possibly operational,
and somebody needs to look over
665
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,180
it and say, Hey, did you do the
methodology or the framework
666
00:46:12,180 --> 00:46:17,340
correctly to I've delivered the
work, that intrapreneurial
667
00:46:17,970 --> 00:46:22,410
perspective that you were
talking about? And we've shifted
668
00:46:22,410 --> 00:46:24,960
the conversation from, I need
permission from somebody to say,
669
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:27,300
hey, look, I've looked over your
methodology or whatever you've
670
00:46:27,300 --> 00:46:31,470
done incorrectly, it's going to
pay, I've delivered a piece of
671
00:46:31,470 --> 00:46:35,460
value. And this is what I did,
which means I had license to
672
00:46:35,460 --> 00:46:40,110
kind of pick and choose and drop
and you know, what you call it?
673
00:46:40,380 --> 00:46:48,630
I'm trying not to use the word
pimp customize. My solution?
674
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,959
Joe Newbert: Okay, yeah, we got
to look for the value in this
675
00:46:54,959 --> 00:46:59,249
stuff. Right? See, see if there
is still value in this stuff
676
00:46:59,249 --> 00:47:05,279
when we look to give value.
Yeah. This word values come up a
677
00:47:05,279 --> 00:47:08,309
lot in our conversation tonight.
And it's going to come up one
678
00:47:08,309 --> 00:47:12,359
more time. I'm going to thank
you for the value that you gave
679
00:47:12,389 --> 00:47:16,889
gave this conversation tonight.
It's been wonderful talking to
680
00:47:16,889 --> 00:47:20,909
you as always, Samuel, thanks
for coming on. I appreciate you
681
00:47:20,909 --> 00:47:21,449
being here.
682
00:47:22,770 --> 00:47:25,230
Samuel Gazimbi: No, thanks a
lot, Joe. I think after a lot of
683
00:47:25,620 --> 00:47:30,570
fun, just kind of peeking into
the future. And just just also
684
00:47:30,570 --> 00:47:34,650
hearing your thoughts and your
insights around these questions
685
00:47:34,650 --> 00:47:36,750
that you've you've posed, I
think they're quite interesting.
686
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:42,990
I still need to go back and look
at KPIs for that's a little bag.
687
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,209
Joe Newbert: As I say, I have
the easier job of the two of us
688
00:47:48,209 --> 00:47:51,359
because I get to ask the easy
question and you have to answer
689
00:47:51,359 --> 00:47:56,579
the answer is somewhat more
difficult. But thanks again,
690
00:47:56,579 --> 00:47:59,039
Sam. It's great seeing you I
look forward to our paths
691
00:47:59,039 --> 00:47:59,789
crossing again.