Jason Daye
We often preach and teach about the joy and hope of Jesus, but can sometimes struggle experiencing that when the demands and chaos of ministry threaten to overwhelm us. So how can we refresh and recenter our hope on Jesus? In this episode, I'm joined by Irwyn Ince Jr. Irwyn is the Coordinator of Mission to North America, part of the Presbyterian Church of America. His most recent book is entitled Hope Ain't a Hustle. Together, Irwyn and I look at ways to overcome hope fatigue. Irwyn shares some biblical truths and practices that can help us enter into God's rest, anchor our hope in Jesus, and experience true joy. Are you ready? Let's go.
Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of FrontStage BackStage. I'm really excited about our conversation today. I'm your host, Jason Daye, and every single week, I have the honor and privilege to sit down with a trusted ministry leader and we dive into a conversation and explore a topic together all in an effort to help you and ministry leaders just like you embrace healthy, sustainable rhythms so you can thrive in life and leadership. We are proud to be a part of the Pastor Serve Network. Each week, not only do we bring you a conversation, but our team also creates an entire toolkit that you can access at PastorServe.org/network for this episode and for every episode. In that toolkit are a number of resources, including a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Now, this growth guide includes insights and questions that you can process through to really dig more deeply into the topic that we cover. We really encourage you not only to use it for yourself and your own personal growth but share it with the ministry leaders in your local church so that they can process through and you can process together to see how this topic fits the context of your local church. So be sure to check that out at PastorServe.org/network. It's a great resource for you. Then, at Pastor Serve, we love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders, and we have trusted ministry coaches that do this day in and day out. If you'd like to learn some details about how you might receive a complimentary coaching session with one of our ministry coaches, we encourage you to check out PastorServe.org/freesession. Now if you're joining us on YouTube, please give us a thumbs up and drop your name and the name of your church or ministry in the comments below. We love getting to know our audience better, and we'll be praying for you and your ministry. If you have any questions that come up during this conversation, we encourage you to drop those in the comments below as well. Now whether you're joining on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform, please be sure to subscribe. You do not want to miss out on any of these great conversations. As I said, I'm excited about today's conversation. At this time, I'd like to welcome Irwyn Ince Jr to the show. Irwyn, welcome, brother.
Irwyn Ince Jr
Thank you, Jason. Good to be with you today.
Jason Daye
So good to have you with us. Now we are going to tackle a topic, from the perspective of ministry leaders, that, at first glance, is an exciting topic. It's a positive topic. You know, it's a topic of hope. But, Irwyn, you and I both know as people who've served in ministry for many years, those who are watching and listening right now probably can resonate with this as well, that sometimes hope can be a challenge in the midst of ministry, in the midst of the chaos, in the midst of the pressures, and all the things going on. So I'm excited about this conversation. You've most recently written a book called Hope Ain't a Hustle. In that book, Irwyn, you address this idea of hope fatigue. I'd like us to kind of start there. When we think about hope fatigue, what are you talking about? What is that experience?
Irwyn Ince Jr
Yeah. So let's just talk about fatigue first, right? I mean, like the concept of fatigue. If we exercise and workout, or we run, we know that feeling of fatigue that comes upon us, and we say, Oh, I can't lift this weight again. I can't run anymore. I've got to stop. I cannot go on doing what I'm doing, even if it may be good for me or desirous in some way, shape, or form, right? Fatigue sets in and it makes me want to stop doing what I am doing. So hope fatigue is just that. We are, for the most part as pastors and ministry leaders in the church, we are a hopeful people. We have our hope set on the Lord Jesus Christ, right? He is the source of our hope. We look to Him for strength, but then sometimes the weight and the weariness of the life of ministry, not just the life of ministry, but sometimes what's going on in our lives outside of ministry can bring a level of fatigue when we say, Listen, can I actually persevere in this calling. You know, in recent years, your listeners may be aware of the increasing number of pastors who are leaving the ministry since 2020, and onward because of the dynamics of what we have experienced in the culture, particularly around race, political polarization, and pandemic. All of these things are fatiguing, and we say, well, listen, even if I continue, hope fatigue can mean that I don't have much expectation that I'll actually be able to persevere with joy.
Jason Daye
Yeah, that's helpful, Irwyn. So this idea of enduring with joy is a central theme to the book of Hebrews, and your book Hope Ain't a Hustle really focuses in on the pastor who wrote the letter of Hebrews. But when we consider this idea of hope fatigue, and as you're even sharing that, Irwyn, those watching and listening are saying, Man, I'm feeling that. I'm feeling that at this point in my life. How do we begin? Where's the starting point? If we identify this as pastors and ministry leaders like we're doing it, we're going through it, but man, we're not sensing the joy in the midst of it all. We've lost that joy that we once had because of all these other things pressing down on us. What's the starting point for us to begin to overcome this hope fatigue?
Irwyn Ince Jr
A really good question and the answer is pretty straightforward. Taking our cues from the Letter to the Hebrews, right? Because the context of this letter is people who are enduring persecution. They are they're suffering for their faith in the Lord. They're being tempted to turn away from Him and to reintroduce some of the ways of Old Covenant religious practices to take some of the pressure off. I'll point to two particular places. The opening words of the letter to the Hebrews in chapter one, that he points their eyes toward Jesus, right? In former days, in many ways, the Lord spoke to our fathers through the prophets. But in these last days, he has spoken to us through His Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact representation of his nature. He's talking to suffering people, and he says, Wait, the first thing you've gotta understand is to look at who your Lord and Savior is. The radiance of the glory of God. The exact imprint of his nature. Then chapter 12. We could talk about a lot in between, but chapter 12, when, after he gives this hall of faith in chapter 11, he says, Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let's lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely and run with endurance the race set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who, for the joy that was set before Him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God, right? So he's saying again to these suffering people, Look to Jesus. He's the founder and the perfecter, the completer of our faith. And he endured with joy. Who, for the joy set before Him, endured the cross. The cross wasn't fun. But ever before his eyes was the joy, right? That would come in bringing, as it says in chapter two, many sons and daughters to glory.
Jason Daye
Yeah, that's good, Irwyn, and for us to have this kind of foundational piece. The starting point of that focus on Christ is so key and so important. Let me press in a bit, Irwyn, because we can preach that pretty well. We can teach that pretty well. But when we're in the throes of it, sometimes it's easier to tell someone else Hey, first thing you need to do is get your eyes on Jesus. Focus on Jesus. But when we're in the midst of that pain, that pressure, whatever it is, or things going sideways, sometimes it's a challenge for us to do that. So, Irwyn, what suggestions or what have you found maybe in your own ministry that helped you to, in the midst of the chaos, center yourself on that?
Irwyn Ince Jr
Yeah, really good and important question. Because that's right, how do I keep my eyes on Jesus? Keep looking to Jesus in practice, certainly through my prayer life, yes, and this is in Hebrews 2, right? When he says in chapter 10, do not neglect the gathering of yourselves together, as is a habit of some. The recognition that the Christian life is a communal one and so very often there's a loneliness in the pastorate. Especially if I'm a solo pastor at the church. I'm maybe the only paid staff at the average church. It's not mega. So I may be the only ordained pastor on staff and can experience that fatigue and kind of the loneliness if I do not actually have vital relationships with other ministry leaders, other pastors, or other people who know this walk, who I am connected to and who I have cultivated by Grace a relationship of accountability, sharing, and friendship. Friendship, right? That is what I have found in my own life. I've been blessed to have other pastors who I am close to in the beginning of ministry, those who would kind of take me under their wing, invite me in, and help me. I had an older brother in the ministry and we had a monthly lunch meeting, and he just kepts checking on me, pouring into me. It is vital to have those kinds of connections. In other words, what I'm saying is we need other people to help us keep looking at Jesus. It's not a solo project.
Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that. So key, so important, and I think you've touched on something that is so prevalent in the church and in ministry leadership. That we tend to kind of go it alone oftentimes. But there is that need for those relationships to help us whenever we are in those difficult times to help point us toward Jesus and remind us of the joy that's set before us. Irwyn, one of the things when we're looking at this idea of hope fatigue, beginning with focusing on Jesus, is this invitation about God's rest, right? In Hope Ain't a Hustle, you really lead us into understanding this idea of God's rest. Kind of what it is, what it may not be, or what we may think it is. I found that so helpful. Can you walk us through that invitation? What are we looking at as we step into or experience that rest?
Irwyn Ince Jr
Yeah, it's such a beautiful part of this letter to the Hebrews, right? Because, one, we know biblically, right? We're pastors and ministry, biblically, that the concept of rest first comes to us in the creation account in Scripture. On the seventh day, the Lord rested and therefore, he blessed the Sabbath day, and there has been, since the fall into sin in Genesis 3, a striving and a challenge in finding real rest. A challenge to actually say, how do I actually know rest? Not just sleep at night, but have this reality of rest as a presence in my life that enables me, I would say, to live as a follower of Christ, as a non-anxious presence in a restless world. It's a wonderful picture we get in Hebrews 4 where the pastor starts to say, therefore, while the promise of entering his God's rest still stands, let's fear, lest any of you should fail to reach it. He's hearkening back to this promise to enter the promised land as with Joshua as entering into God's rest. But he realizes, and he says, we're not really just talking about a plot of land. Because look, if Joshua had given him rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So we understand that the fulfillment of that is in Christ and so this reality when he says, For whoever has entered his rest, as into rather God's rest, has also rested from His works the way God did from his, and that's a key understanding. So to come to Christ is an entrance into God's rest. The pastor says, You've entered into his rest the way God did from his, which is, wait a second. What does that mean? Oh, God entered his rest. The seventh day of creation is the only day that doesn't have an evening. So God entered in his rest and he's still in his rest, but then he's also working, right? Jesus says in the Gospel of John, my father is working until now, and I am working, and they want to stone Jesus because he's making himself equal to God. So what does that mean to enter into God's rest, resting from our works, the way God did from his is exactly what I said, this kind of way of engaging in the world as a non-anxious presence? Having the peace of Christ. Paul uses that terminology in Philippians. Guarding our hearts and our minds that we have that assurance, not just because things are not difficult. Again, the context of Hebrews is people are suffering. They're being persecuted and he's talking to them about resting from their works the way God did from this. What do you mean? I'm catching hell. What are you talking about? It's like, oh no, no. Don't you understand what you have? Don't you understand what you have entered into and what that enables you to be in this world as you live this life of faith in the living God?
Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that, Irwyn, because oftentimes when we think of rest, we think first as a posture of the body and that's true. I mean, we're holistic people, so it's true. But oftentimes we think first with that, but what you have kind of teased out of the pastor writing the letter to the Hebrews is this idea that God's rest is really an invitation. It's a posture of mind and a posture of heart. It's this idea that we're finding that rest, that peace, that calm, and that certainty, right? And that helps us be anchored. So, Irwyn, that kind of leads us to the next phase. Let's talk about that anchor. That anchor of hope. How do we experience that? So we're kind of moving through this progression. Invite us into that anchor piece.
Irwyn Ince Jr
I love that terminology that you're pulling right from the language in the book, which pulls from the language in Hebrews 6 when he says that we have this hope. We have this hope as a sure and steadfast anchor of a soul. A hope that is entered into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. It's interesting because he says to them in that chapter, we want you all to have the full assurance of your hope all the way to the end. To hold to the full assurance. When I read that, the first thing I think is, oh, shouldn't he say the faith? The full assurance of our faith all the way to the end. But he specifically says, the full assurance of your hope all the way to the end. This reality is that the hope that we have in God through faith in Jesus Christ is a hope that takes us not simply metaphorically, maybe metaphorically in some sense, in the descriptor of it. When he says into the inner place behind the curtain where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, he's talking to that imagery of the Holy of Holies in the temple where the high priest would only go once a year on the Day of Atonement. So the reason why it's not just metaphorical is He's saying, do you understand your access? Do you understand your access? We, in Christ, have access to the very throne of God and Jesus has already gone ahead of us. He's made the way, and he stands, he will say in chapter 7, he always lives to make intercession for us. So this hope that we have takes us before the face of God and realizing that has very practical implications for how we do and live in ministry. Yes, not just what we teach, as you've already said, brother. We can teach this all day. But how do we live it? What difference does it make for me as a pastor to know that in every facet of my life and ministry, I am accessing the very throne of God? That I am a beloved son who's invited, who's welcomed in, who will never be turned away, and who will never be cast out. What difference does that make when I go and sit with someone, a congregant who is upset because we haven't spoken out against some political issue, political policy, justice issue, or racial issue that I'm dealing with these being pulled in multiple directions because our congregants are real people who live in the real world and who are impacted by the real issues and talking points in society and want me to respond to those in the way that they want to hear it. So this hope makes a difference when I'm sitting with someone and they say, You know what? I think I'm leaving. I'm leaving this church. You all have become too liberal or progressive. You all have become too right wing and I'm checking out. For pastors, the way that kind of thing pierces our hearts, it has a way of not just discouraging us, but of making us want to lose hope and give up hope that we can actually see people's lives change, and this communion of people from different backgrounds and walks of life persevere or endure through those trials. So that's why we have to have this kind of hope. It's what he's saying in chapter 6 of Hebrews, is essentially, keep hope alive. Keep the hope alive.
Jason Daye
Yeah. That's good, Irwyn, absolutely love that because I think that's because that's kind of where the rubber meets the road when it comes to ministry because ministry is relationships, right? We're going to have conversations with people. We're part of people's lives. That's a blessing that God gives us that opportunity, but that means there's gonna be some reality checks, there's gonna be some things that are shared that might be hurtful or might be painful to hear, and yet we endure. So that leads us to another thing that you bring up in Hope Ain't a Hustle, and that is this idea of endurance. I thought it was interesting because you spent some time talking about this idea of exhaustion and running through exhaustion, which doesn't sound fun, first of all. On one side, as I was reading, I was thinking, Well, you could take this one direction, and you could take it too far one way, and just say, hey, deplete yourself completely. Hey, you have one life to live. Lay it all out there. But thankfully, Scripture doesn't lead us that way and you helped us in the book not to run down that road. So help us think about this idea of, what does it mean to be running through exhaustion? What does that look like in our lives as ministry leaders?
Irwyn Ince Jr
Yes, I will be repeating myself a little bit here. But that concept, and I'm not a runner, I don't even play one on TV. But that idea. I've never experienced that kind of runner's high people talk about. You get to the point you gotta, somebody told me recently at the gym, Yeah, you just gotta be able to run through that pain. You get to that pain and you gotta be able to keep running. Eventually, you'll experience this kind of numbness and you'll be able to keep going. I was like, I don't know that. But the concept is this ability to not let the pain be the thing that causes you to come to a complete stop. Now, I love the way that it is played out in this letter to the Hebrews. I've already quoted from chapter 12 and that's where this kind of metaphor comes from, where he says, let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith. So a couple of things. One, I will reiterate the reality of community and the need for that. To run through the exhaustion does not mean run until I fall flat on my face and pass away or pass out. It doesn't mean just keep grinding and grinding and grinding until I have nothing more to give. The way that we run through the exhaustion is by having other people who are running with us. So that's the idea in Hebrews 12:1. Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let's run with endurance the race set before us. It's the race set before us. Not the race set before me. So he had just gotten through giving the Hall of Faith. All of these faithful people, right? Who he said did not see the promises fulfilled. So let's run with endurance the race set before us. It's a collective one. I'm not trying to outpace somebody. So I recognize that in this running through exhaustion, there are points in times where I'm going to need to help carry some others, and some others are going to need to help carry me through seasons of this life of ministry and faithfulness. After that, he says, Let's lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely. The neat part of running through the exhaustion is I need to also be honest about my temptations and my sins. I need to be honest because those things hinder me from running well. So the grace of God, the Holy Spirit, convicts me of sin. Like in ministry, when I'm experiencing the exhaustion, and I'm not saying I'm looking to blame myself. But I need to say, Okay, what's going on in my own heart and mind? Are there things that the Lord is kind of revealing to me about myself? Am I in some ways, making the ministry more about me than it is about the Lord? Am I just seeking validation from others that I can only get from Jesus? I need to be honest and say, Okay, are there things that I'm trying to get from the ministry that I'm not being intended to get? Am I trying to validate my worth and value as a human being or as a Christian because of the ministry that I'm doing? I need to be honest about some things and see if the Lord reveals some things in my own heart that need to be laid aside. I mean, that's the point in let's lay aside every sin and weight, he says, that clings so closely. You're not talking about the stuff you don't have an issue with. He's talking precisely about the stuff that's clinging to us that we don't want to see die.
Jason Daye
Yep, that's good. That's good, Irwyn. What would you say? I'm curious and reflecting back on your work as a local church pastor, but also your work now as you're working with pastors and ministry leaders across North America. What do you think is one of the biggest hindrances that we in ministry leadership have when it comes to losing hope, just generally, or not experiencing that joy in the midst of it?
Irwyn Ince Jr
In our current context, I think the answer to that question can change somewhat depending on the period of time we find ourselves during ministry. What are the cultural pressures and things that are going on in the society? Right now, I think one of the primary hindrances to us being able to persevere in hope is the fact that we are ministering in a season others have called a culture of contempt and that infiltrates the church. So a culture of contempt. It's one thing for me, Jason, if you and I disagree, to say, Okay, can we find a way forward? But contempt, if I have contempt for you, the problem isn't your posture or position, the problem is you. You're the problem, not your perspective, right? This culture of contempt has pitted people against one another, where the issue is not an issue or a position, but the people themselves. We need to be away from those people. We can't have any engagement with those people. We as pastors, see that. Sometimes we feel it. We're those people too. We're not just shepherds, we're sheep too, and so we can feel that. But we are ministering in that context and what we have seen is an even more prominent fracturing of the church along particularly partisan lines. And if we are striving really to be faithful to the Lord and to his word, that is a great discouragement. That is a great hindrance to our hopefulness because it may have been only a few years ago when you think, Oh, we're moving in a different direction. Let's just talk about the church. Where not there's a lot more talk and pursuit about cross-cultural, multi-ethnic ministry, about racial reconciliation, and about real unity in the Lord and all of that is in upheaval right now. That has a particular hindrance to our ability to press forward in hope. It is not something that will prevent it ultimately, but it can be a hindrance to it. It's a hindrance that can be overcome because as I communicated a few weeks ago to some other pastors in training, the trajectory of the church in terms of its life is never this kind of just upward line, ramp, or this exponential curve that just keeps going up to more or to a greater and greater reflection of Jesus. No, no, no. The history of the church is these waves, right? When we say, Wait a second, where's the church at Philippi? Where's the church at Colossae? Where's the church in Corinth? Where are these churches that were recipients of the New Testament letters? Where's the church at Smyrna? Jesus is still building his church. But in the moment, when we see things shifting and we see uh oh, we look to be on a downturn. No, no, no, Jesus is still faithful. So my point is, that it is a hindrance that can be overcome when we have an eternal perspective around what Jesus is doing in this world.
Jason Daye
Yeah, that's so good. That really, Irwyn, takes us full circle to where we kind of began this whole conversation and where do we go? We look to Jesus, right? So I love that, Irwyn. This has been an amazing conversation. I want to give you the opportunity. A couple of things as we wind down. First, you have the ears and eyes of pastors, ministry leaders, brothers, and sisters who are on the front lines right now. What words of encouragement would you like to share with them?
Irwyn Ince Jr
I will start with what you just said in posing this question. Brothers and sisters who are on the front line. The recognition that you are on the front lines of ministry and the work that the Lord is doing in his world, in the advancement of the kingdom, and the proclamation of the gospel of grace. You are not there by accident but by the good pleasure and plan of our God. So it does not mean that the Lord can't move you in a different direction, but it should be something that you take heart, right? That I am where Jesus wants me to be, in this calling, and doing what Jesus wants me to do. I encourage you to have the kind of perspective that says it is so very true, yes, for Christians in general, and particularly for ministry leaders, when Jesus says in the Gospel of John in the upper room discourse, when he says to his apostles, In this world, in life, you will have tribulation, you will have trouble, but take heart. I have overcome the world. There's a promise there. There's a reality that this is a calling that calls for a daily recognition of my dependence on the Lord. That is not something that I will be fruitful in in my own strength and this invitation from Jesus himself to take heart because he has overcome.
Jason Daye
Yeah, that's beautiful, brother. It's beautiful. Love it. As we close down, if people want to connect with you, the ministry that you're doing currently, or learn more about what's going on, what you're writing, what you're working on, what's the best way for them to do that?
Irwyn Ince Jr
The best way is to just go to my website, IrwynInce.com. You can find out how to get in touch, see what's going on with ministry, and find access to books and resources that I've got. So that's the best way.
Jason Daye
Excellent. Awesome. I appreciate that. In the toolkit for this episode, for those who are watching and listening, we will have links to Irwyn's website so you know how to spell it. We'll have a link. We gotta make it easy on you. We'll have links to Hope Ain't a Hustle, Irwyn's most recent book that we've referenced as we've talked together, and give you the opportunity to connect with him that way, as well as the toolkit for this entire episode, where we dig into this conversation more deeply, providing insights and questions for you to reflect on and for the leaders in your local ministry to reflect on as well. So be sure to check that out at PastorServe.org/network. Awesome, brother. So appreciate you. Thanks again for making the time to hang out with us today on FrontStage BackStage. Appreciate all that you're doing and all that God's doing in and through you.
Irwyn Ince Jr
Thank you, brother. It's been a delight.
Jason Daye
Awesome. Well, God Bless you.
Irwyn Ince Jr
Bless you as well.
Jason Daye
Now, before you go, I want to remind you of an incredible free resource that our team puts together every single week to help you and your team dig more deeply and maximize the conversation that we just had. This is the weekly toolkit that we provide. And we understand that it's one thing to listen or watch an episode, but it's something entirely different to actually take what you've heard, what you've watched, what you've seen, and apply it to your life and to your ministry. You see, FrontStage BackStage is more than just a podcast or YouTube show about ministry leadership, we are a complete resource to help train you and your entire ministry team as you seek to grow and develop in life in ministry. Every single week, we provide a weekly toolkit which has all types of tools in it to help you do just that. Now you can find this at PastorServe.org/network. That's PastorServe.org/network. And there you will find all of our shows, all of our episodes and all of our weekly toolkits. Now inside the toolkit are several tools including video links and audio links for you to share with your team. There are resource links to different resources and tools that were mentioned in the conversation, and several other tools, but the greatest thing is the ministry leaders growth guide. Our team pulls key insights and concepts from every conversation with our amazing guests. And then we also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how that episode's topic relates to your unique context, at your local church, in your ministry and in your life. Now you can use these questions in your regular staff meetings to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. You can find the weekly toolkit at PastorServe.org/network We encourage you to check out that free resource. Until next time, I'm Jason Daye encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well. God bless.
We often preach and teach about the joy and hope of Jesus, but can sometimes struggle experiencing that when the demands and chaos of ministry threaten to overwhelm us. So how can we refresh and recenter our hope on Jesus? In this episode, I'm joined by Irwyn Ince Jr. Irwyn is the Coordinator of Mission to North America, part of the Presbyterian Church of America. His most recent book is entitled Hope Ain't a Hustle. Together, Irwyn and I look at ways to overcome hope fatigue. Irwyn shares some biblical truths and practices that can help us enter into God's rest, anchor our hope in Jesus, and experience true joy. Are you ready? Let's go.
Jason Daye
Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode of FrontStage BackStage. I'm really excited about our conversation today. I'm your host, Jason Daye, and every single week, I have the honor and privilege to sit down with a trusted ministry leader and we dive into a conversation and explore a topic together all in an effort to help you and ministry leaders just like you embrace healthy, sustainable rhythms so you can thrive in life and leadership. We are proud to be a part of the Pastor Serve Network. Each week, not only do we bring you a conversation, but our team also creates an entire toolkit that you can access at PastorServe.org/network for this episode and for every episode. In that toolkit are a number of resources, including a Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Now, this growth guide includes insights and questions that you can process through to really dig more deeply into the topic that we cover. We really encourage you not only to use it for yourself and your own personal growth but share it with the ministry leaders in your local church so that they can process through and you can process together to see how this topic fits the context of your local church. So be sure to check that out at PastorServe.org/network. It's a great resource for you. Then, at Pastor Serve, we love walking alongside pastors and ministry leaders, and we have trusted ministry coaches that do this day in and day out. If you'd like to learn some details about how you might receive a complimentary coaching session with one of our ministry coaches, we encourage you to check out PastorServe.org/freesession. Now if you're joining us on YouTube, please give us a thumbs up and drop your name and the name of your church or ministry in the comments below. We love getting to know our audience better, and we'll be praying for you and your ministry. If you have any questions that come up during this conversation, we encourage you to drop those in the comments below as well. Now whether you're joining on YouTube or your favorite podcast platform, please be sure to subscribe. You do not want to miss out on any of these great conversations. As I said, I'm excited about today's conversation. At this time, I'd like to welcome Irwyn Ince Jr to the show. Irwyn, welcome, brother.
Irwyn Ince Jr
Thank you, Jason. Good to be with you today.
Jason Daye
So good to have you with us. Now we are going to tackle a topic, from the perspective of ministry leaders, that, at first glance, is an exciting topic. It's a positive topic. You know, it's a topic of hope. But, Irwyn, you and I both know as people who've served in ministry for many years, those who are watching and listening right now probably can resonate with this as well, that sometimes hope can be a challenge in the midst of ministry, in the midst of the chaos, in the midst of the pressures, and all the things going on. So I'm excited about this conversation. You've most recently written a book called Hope Ain't a Hustle. In that book, Irwyn, you address this idea of hope fatigue. I'd like us to kind of start there. When we think about hope fatigue, what are you talking about? What is that experience?
Irwyn Ince Jr
Yeah. So let's just talk about fatigue first, right? I mean, like the concept of fatigue. If we exercise and workout, or we run, we know that feeling of fatigue that comes upon us, and we say, Oh, I can't lift this weight again. I can't run anymore. I've got to stop. I cannot go on doing what I'm doing, even if it may be good for me or desirous in some way, shape, or form, right? Fatigue sets in and it makes me want to stop doing what I am doing. So hope fatigue is just that. We are, for the most part as pastors and ministry leaders in the church, we are a hopeful people. We have our hope set on the Lord Jesus Christ, right? He is the source of our hope. We look to Him for strength, but then sometimes the weight and the weariness of the life of ministry, not just the life of ministry, but sometimes what's going on in our lives outside of ministry can bring a level of fatigue when we say, Listen, can I actually persevere in this calling. You know, in recent years, your listeners may be aware of the increasing number of pastors who are leaving the ministry since 2020, and onward because of the dynamics of what we have experienced in the culture, particularly around race, political polarization, and pandemic. All of these things are fatiguing, and we say, well, listen, even if I continue, hope fatigue can mean that I don't have much expectation that I'll actually be able to persevere with joy.
Jason Daye
Yeah, that's helpful, Irwyn. So this idea of enduring with joy is a central theme to the book of Hebrews, and your book Hope Ain't a Hustle really focuses in on the pastor who wrote the letter of Hebrews. But when we consider this idea of hope fatigue, and as you're even sharing that, Irwyn, those watching and listening are saying, Man, I'm feeling that. I'm feeling that at this point in my life. How do we begin? Where's the starting point? If we identify this as pastors and ministry leaders like we're doing it, we're going through it, but man, we're not sensing the joy in the midst of it all. We've lost that joy that we once had because of all these other things pressing down on us. What's the starting point for us to begin to overcome this hope fatigue?
Irwyn Ince Jr
A really good question and the answer is pretty straightforward. Taking our cues from the Letter to the Hebrews, right? Because the context of this letter is people who are enduring persecution. They are they're suffering for their faith in the Lord. They're being tempted to turn away from Him and to reintroduce some of the ways of Old Covenant religious practices to take some of the pressure off. I'll point to two particular places. The opening words of the letter to the Hebrews in chapter one, that he points their eyes toward Jesus, right? In former days, in many ways, the Lord spoke to our fathers through the prophets. But in these last days, he has spoken to us through His Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact representation of his nature. He's talking to suffering people, and he says, Wait, the first thing you've gotta understand is to look at who your Lord and Savior is. The radiance of the glory of God. The exact imprint of his nature. Then chapter 12. We could talk about a lot in between, but chapter 12, when, after he gives this hall of faith in chapter 11, he says, Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let's lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely and run with endurance the race set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who, for the joy that was set before Him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God, right? So he's saying again to these suffering people, Look to Jesus. He's the founder and the perfecter, the completer of our faith. And he endured with joy. Who, for the joy set before Him, endured the cross. The cross wasn't fun. But ever before his eyes was the joy, right? That would come in bringing, as it says in chapter two, many sons and daughters to glory.
Jason Daye
Yeah, that's good, Irwyn, and for us to have this kind of foundational piece. The starting point of that focus on Christ is so key and so important. Let me press in a bit, Irwyn, because we can preach that pretty well. We can teach that pretty well. But when we're in the throes of it, sometimes it's easier to tell someone else Hey, first thing you need to do is get your eyes on Jesus. Focus on Jesus. But when we're in the midst of that pain, that pressure, whatever it is, or things going sideways, sometimes it's a challenge for us to do that. So, Irwyn, what suggestions or what have you found maybe in your own ministry that helped you to, in the midst of the chaos, center yourself on that?
Irwyn Ince Jr
Yeah, really good and important question. Because that's right, how do I keep my eyes on Jesus? Keep looking to Jesus in practice, certainly through my prayer life, yes, and this is in Hebrews 2, right? When he says in chapter 10, do not neglect the gathering of yourselves together, as is a habit of some. The recognition that the Christian life is a communal one and so very often there's a loneliness in the pastorate. Especially if I'm a solo pastor at the church. I'm maybe the only paid staff at the average church. It's not mega. So I may be the only ordained pastor on staff and can experience that fatigue and kind of the loneliness if I do not actually have vital relationships with other ministry leaders, other pastors, or other people who know this walk, who I am connected to and who I have cultivated by Grace a relationship of accountability, sharing, and friendship. Friendship, right? That is what I have found in my own life. I've been blessed to have other pastors who I am close to in the beginning of ministry, those who would kind of take me under their wing, invite me in, and help me. I had an older brother in the ministry and we had a monthly lunch meeting, and he just kepts checking on me, pouring into me. It is vital to have those kinds of connections. In other words, what I'm saying is we need other people to help us keep looking at Jesus. It's not a solo project.
Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that. So key, so important, and I think you've touched on something that is so prevalent in the church and in ministry leadership. That we tend to kind of go it alone oftentimes. But there is that need for those relationships to help us whenever we are in those difficult times to help point us toward Jesus and remind us of the joy that's set before us. Irwyn, one of the things when we're looking at this idea of hope fatigue, beginning with focusing on Jesus, is this invitation about God's rest, right? In Hope Ain't a Hustle, you really lead us into understanding this idea of God's rest. Kind of what it is, what it may not be, or what we may think it is. I found that so helpful. Can you walk us through that invitation? What are we looking at as we step into or experience that rest?
Irwyn Ince Jr
Yeah, it's such a beautiful part of this letter to the Hebrews, right? Because, one, we know biblically, right? We're pastors and ministry, biblically, that the concept of rest first comes to us in the creation account in Scripture. On the seventh day, the Lord rested and therefore, he blessed the Sabbath day, and there has been, since the fall into sin in Genesis 3, a striving and a challenge in finding real rest. A challenge to actually say, how do I actually know rest? Not just sleep at night, but have this reality of rest as a presence in my life that enables me, I would say, to live as a follower of Christ, as a non-anxious presence in a restless world. It's a wonderful picture we get in Hebrews 4 where the pastor starts to say, therefore, while the promise of entering his God's rest still stands, let's fear, lest any of you should fail to reach it. He's hearkening back to this promise to enter the promised land as with Joshua as entering into God's rest. But he realizes, and he says, we're not really just talking about a plot of land. Because look, if Joshua had given him rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So we understand that the fulfillment of that is in Christ and so this reality when he says, For whoever has entered his rest, as into rather God's rest, has also rested from His works the way God did from his, and that's a key understanding. So to come to Christ is an entrance into God's rest. The pastor says, You've entered into his rest the way God did from his, which is, wait a second. What does that mean? Oh, God entered his rest. The seventh day of creation is the only day that doesn't have an evening. So God entered in his rest and he's still in his rest, but then he's also working, right? Jesus says in the Gospel of John, my father is working until now, and I am working, and they want to stone Jesus because he's making himself equal to God. So what does that mean to enter into God's rest, resting from our works, the way God did from his is exactly what I said, this kind of way of engaging in the world as a non-anxious presence? Having the peace of Christ. Paul uses that terminology in Philippians. Guarding our hearts and our minds that we have that assurance, not just because things are not difficult. Again, the context of Hebrews is people are suffering. They're being persecuted and he's talking to them about resting from their works the way God did from this. What do you mean? I'm catching hell. What are you talking about? It's like, oh no, no. Don't you understand what you have? Don't you understand what you have entered into and what that enables you to be in this world as you live this life of faith in the living God?
Jason Daye
Yeah, I love that, Irwyn, because oftentimes when we think of rest, we think first as a posture of the body and that's true. I mean, we're holistic people, so it's true. But oftentimes we think first with that, but what you have kind of teased out of the pastor writing the letter to the Hebrews is this idea that God's rest is really an invitation. It's a posture of mind and a posture of heart. It's this idea that we're finding that rest, that peace, that calm, and that certainty, right? And that helps us be anchored. So, Irwyn, that kind of leads us to the next phase. Let's talk about that anchor. That anchor of hope. How do we experience that? So we're kind of moving through this progression. Invite us into that anchor piece.
Irwyn Ince Jr
I love that terminology that you're pulling right from the language in the book, which pulls from the language in Hebrews 6 when he says that we have this hope. We have this hope as a sure and steadfast anchor of a soul. A hope that is entered into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. It's interesting because he says to them in that chapter, we want you all to have the full assurance of your hope all the way to the end. To hold to the full assurance. When I read that, the first thing I think is, oh, shouldn't he say the faith? The full assurance of our faith all the way to the end. But he specifically says, the full assurance of your hope all the way to the end. This reality is that the hope that we have in God through faith in Jesus Christ is a hope that takes us not simply metaphorically, maybe metaphorically in some sense, in the descriptor of it. When he says into the inner place behind the curtain where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, he's talking to that imagery of the Holy of Holies in the temple where the high priest would only go once a year on the Day of Atonement. So the reason why it's not just metaphorical is He's saying, do you understand your access? Do you understand your access? We, in Christ, have access to the very throne of God and Jesus has already gone ahead of us. He's made the way, and he stands, he will say in chapter 7, he always lives to make intercession for us. So this hope that we have takes us before the face of God and realizing that has very practical implications for how we do and live in ministry. Yes, not just what we teach, as you've already said, brother. We can teach this all day. But how do we live it? What difference does it make for me as a pastor to know that in every facet of my life and ministry, I am accessing the very throne of God? That I am a beloved son who's invited, who's welcomed in, who will never be turned away, and who will never be cast out. What difference does that make when I go and sit with someone, a congregant who is upset because we haven't spoken out against some political issue, political policy, justice issue, or racial issue that I'm dealing with these being pulled in multiple directions because our congregants are real people who live in the real world and who are impacted by the real issues and talking points in society and want me to respond to those in the way that they want to hear it. So this hope makes a difference when I'm sitting with someone and they say, You know what? I think I'm leaving. I'm leaving this church. You all have become too liberal or progressive. You all have become too right wing and I'm checking out. For pastors, the way that kind of thing pierces our hearts, it has a way of not just discouraging us, but of making us want to lose hope and give up hope that we can actually see people's lives change, and this communion of people from different backgrounds and walks of life persevere or endure through those trials. So that's why we have to have this kind of hope. It's what he's saying in chapter 6 of Hebrews, is essentially, keep hope alive. Keep the hope alive.
Jason Daye
Yeah. That's good, Irwyn, absolutely love that because I think that's because that's kind of where the rubber meets the road when it comes to ministry because ministry is relationships, right? We're going to have conversations with people. We're part of people's lives. That's a blessing that God gives us that opportunity, but that means there's gonna be some reality checks, there's gonna be some things that are shared that might be hurtful or might be painful to hear, and yet we endure. So that leads us to another thing that you bring up in Hope Ain't a Hustle, and that is this idea of endurance. I thought it was interesting because you spent some time talking about this idea of exhaustion and running through exhaustion, which doesn't sound fun, first of all. On one side, as I was reading, I was thinking, Well, you could take this one direction, and you could take it too far one way, and just say, hey, deplete yourself completely. Hey, you have one life to live. Lay it all out there. But thankfully, Scripture doesn't lead us that way and you helped us in the book not to run down that road. So help us think about this idea of, what does it mean to be running through exhaustion? What does that look like in our lives as ministry leaders?
Irwyn Ince Jr
Yes, I will be repeating myself a little bit here. But that concept, and I'm not a runner, I don't even play one on TV. But that idea. I've never experienced that kind of runner's high people talk about. You get to the point you gotta, somebody told me recently at the gym, Yeah, you just gotta be able to run through that pain. You get to that pain and you gotta be able to keep running. Eventually, you'll experience this kind of numbness and you'll be able to keep going. I was like, I don't know that. But the concept is this ability to not let the pain be the thing that causes you to come to a complete stop. Now, I love the way that it is played out in this letter to the Hebrews. I've already quoted from chapter 12 and that's where this kind of metaphor comes from, where he says, let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith. So a couple of things. One, I will reiterate the reality of community and the need for that. To run through the exhaustion does not mean run until I fall flat on my face and pass away or pass out. It doesn't mean just keep grinding and grinding and grinding until I have nothing more to give. The way that we run through the exhaustion is by having other people who are running with us. So that's the idea in Hebrews 12:1. Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let's run with endurance the race set before us. It's the race set before us. Not the race set before me. So he had just gotten through giving the Hall of Faith. All of these faithful people, right? Who he said did not see the promises fulfilled. So let's run with endurance the race set before us. It's a collective one. I'm not trying to outpace somebody. So I recognize that in this running through exhaustion, there are points in times where I'm going to need to help carry some others, and some others are going to need to help carry me through seasons of this life of ministry and faithfulness. After that, he says, Let's lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely. The neat part of running through the exhaustion is I need to also be honest about my temptations and my sins. I need to be honest because those things hinder me from running well. So the grace of God, the Holy Spirit, convicts me of sin. Like in ministry, when I'm experiencing the exhaustion, and I'm not saying I'm looking to blame myself. But I need to say, Okay, what's going on in my own heart and mind? Are there things that the Lord is kind of revealing to me about myself? Am I in some ways, making the ministry more about me than it is about the Lord? Am I just seeking validation from others that I can only get from Jesus? I need to be honest and say, Okay, are there things that I'm trying to get from the ministry that I'm not being intended to get? Am I trying to validate my worth and value as a human being or as a Christian because of the ministry that I'm doing? I need to be honest about some things and see if the Lord reveals some things in my own heart that need to be laid aside. I mean, that's the point in let's lay aside every sin and weight, he says, that clings so closely. You're not talking about the stuff you don't have an issue with. He's talking precisely about the stuff that's clinging to us that we don't want to see die.
Jason Daye
Yep, that's good. That's good, Irwyn. What would you say? I'm curious and reflecting back on your work as a local church pastor, but also your work now as you're working with pastors and ministry leaders across North America. What do you think is one of the biggest hindrances that we in ministry leadership have when it comes to losing hope, just generally, or not experiencing that joy in the midst of it?
Irwyn Ince Jr
In our current context, I think the answer to that question can change somewhat depending on the period of time we find ourselves during ministry. What are the cultural pressures and things that are going on in the society? Right now, I think one of the primary hindrances to us being able to persevere in hope is the fact that we are ministering in a season others have called a culture of contempt and that infiltrates the church. So a culture of contempt. It's one thing for me, Jason, if you and I disagree, to say, Okay, can we find a way forward? But contempt, if I have contempt for you, the problem isn't your posture or position, the problem is you. You're the problem, not your perspective, right? This culture of contempt has pitted people against one another, where the issue is not an issue or a position, but the people themselves. We need to be away from those people. We can't have any engagement with those people. We as pastors, see that. Sometimes we feel it. We're those people too. We're not just shepherds, we're sheep too, and so we can feel that. But we are ministering in that context and what we have seen is an even more prominent fracturing of the church along particularly partisan lines. And if we are striving really to be faithful to the Lord and to his word, that is a great discouragement. That is a great hindrance to our hopefulness because it may have been only a few years ago when you think, Oh, we're moving in a different direction. Let's just talk about the church. Where not there's a lot more talk and pursuit about cross-cultural, multi-ethnic ministry, about racial reconciliation, and about real unity in the Lord and all of that is in upheaval right now. That has a particular hindrance to our ability to press forward in hope. It is not something that will prevent it ultimately, but it can be a hindrance to it. It's a hindrance that can be overcome because as I communicated a few weeks ago to some other pastors in training, the trajectory of the church in terms of its life is never this kind of just upward line, ramp, or this exponential curve that just keeps going up to more or to a greater and greater reflection of Jesus. No, no, no. The history of the church is these waves, right? When we say, Wait a second, where's the church at Philippi? Where's the church at Colossae? Where's the church in Corinth? Where are these churches that were recipients of the New Testament letters? Where's the church at Smyrna? Jesus is still building his church. But in the moment, when we see things shifting and we see uh oh, we look to be on a downturn. No, no, no, Jesus is still faithful. So my point is, that it is a hindrance that can be overcome when we have an eternal perspective around what Jesus is doing in this world.
Jason Daye
Yeah, that's so good. That really, Irwyn, takes us full circle to where we kind of began this whole conversation and where do we go? We look to Jesus, right? So I love that, Irwyn. This has been an amazing conversation. I want to give you the opportunity. A couple of things as we wind down. First, you have the ears and eyes of pastors, ministry leaders, brothers, and sisters who are on the front lines right now. What words of encouragement would you like to share with them?
Irwyn Ince Jr
I will start with what you just said in posing this question. Brothers and sisters who are on the front line. The recognition that you are on the front lines of ministry and the work that the Lord is doing in his world, in the advancement of the kingdom, and the proclamation of the gospel of grace. You are not there by accident but by the good pleasure and plan of our God. So it does not mean that the Lord can't move you in a different direction, but it should be something that you take heart, right? That I am where Jesus wants me to be, in this calling, and doing what Jesus wants me to do. I encourage you to have the kind of perspective that says it is so very true, yes, for Christians in general, and particularly for ministry leaders, when Jesus says in the Gospel of John in the upper room discourse, when he says to his apostles, In this world, in life, you will have tribulation, you will have trouble, but take heart. I have overcome the world. There's a promise there. There's a reality that this is a calling that calls for a daily recognition of my dependence on the Lord. That is not something that I will be fruitful in in my own strength and this invitation from Jesus himself to take heart because he has overcome.
Jason Daye
Yeah, that's beautiful, brother. It's beautiful. Love it. As we close down, if people want to connect with you, the ministry that you're doing currently, or learn more about what's going on, what you're writing, what you're working on, what's the best way for them to do that?
Irwyn Ince Jr
The best way is to just go to my website, IrwynInce.com. You can find out how to get in touch, see what's going on with ministry, and find access to books and resources that I've got. So that's the best way.
Jason Daye
Excellent. Awesome. I appreciate that. In the toolkit for this episode, for those who are watching and listening, we will have links to Irwyn's website so you know how to spell it. We'll have a link. We gotta make it easy on you. We'll have links to Hope Ain't a Hustle, Irwyn's most recent book that we've referenced as we've talked together, and give you the opportunity to connect with him that way, as well as the toolkit for this entire episode, where we dig into this conversation more deeply, providing insights and questions for you to reflect on and for the leaders in your local ministry to reflect on as well. So be sure to check that out at PastorServe.org/network. Awesome, brother. So appreciate you. Thanks again for making the time to hang out with us today on FrontStage BackStage. Appreciate all that you're doing and all that God's doing in and through you.
Irwyn Ince Jr
Thank you, brother. It's been a delight.
Jason Daye
Awesome. Well, God Bless you.
Irwyn Ince Jr
Bless you as well.
Jason Daye
Now, before you go, I want to remind you of an incredible free resource that our team puts together every single week to help you and your team dig more deeply and maximize the conversation that we just had. This is the weekly toolkit that we provide. And we understand that it's one thing to listen or watch an episode, but it's something entirely different to actually take what you've heard, what you've watched, what you've seen, and apply it to your life and to your ministry. You see, FrontStage BackStage is more than just a podcast or YouTube show about ministry leadership, we are a complete resource to help train you and your entire ministry team as you seek to grow and develop in life in ministry. Every single week, we provide a weekly toolkit which has all types of tools in it to help you do just that. Now you can find this at PastorServe.org/network. That's PastorServe.org/network. And there you will find all of our shows, all of our episodes and all of our weekly toolkits. Now inside the toolkit are several tools including video links and audio links for you to share with your team. There are resource links to different resources and tools that were mentioned in the conversation, and several other tools, but the greatest thing is the ministry leaders growth guide. Our team pulls key insights and concepts from every conversation with our amazing guests. And then we also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how that episode's topic relates to your unique context, at your local church, in your ministry and in your life. Now you can use these questions in your regular staff meetings to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. You can find the weekly toolkit at PastorServe.org/network We encourage you to check out that free resource. Until next time, I'm Jason Daye encouraging you to love well, live well, and lead well. God bless.
