WEBVTT
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Any health related information on the following show provides general
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information only. Content presented on any show by any host
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or guest should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
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Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
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or treatment program.
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Hello everyone, and welcome to Five to Thrive Live. I'm
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Carolyn Gazella and I co host the show with my
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good friend, doctor lise Al Schuller. Okay, so this month's
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nutrient profile is low dose lithium. As it turns out,
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my guest and I wrote a technical paper for doctors
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on this subject several years ago. I wanted to revisit
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the topic and share the information with a much broader audience,
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and I wanted to talk about the new research, which
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is actually pretty exciting. So with me is one of
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my go to mental health experts, doctor Peter Bonjorno, who
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I've worked with over the years. He is considered a
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leading expert in integrative psychiatric care and is the author
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of several best selling books on that topic. But before
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I bring in doctor bon Jono, I'd like to thank
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at Doctorohira Probiotics dot com, doctor Bunjourno. It's always a
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pleasure having you on the show. Thank you for joining me.
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Thank you, Carolyn, It's great to be here again.
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Yeah.
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So, before we dig in to low dose lithium, you
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use an integrative approach to mental health issues. Why is
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that important for you?
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Yeah, well, I mean, you know, what I see is
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that many people who come into my office are often
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already on medications. You know, when you define integrative medicine,
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you're talking about using medicine that combines both conventional medical
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care as needed, along with holistic and more functional medicine
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and atropathic care as well, and really using them together
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for the best benefits of the patient. And most of
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the patients I see who come in with mental health
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issues are typically treated with conventional medicine, which sometimes can
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be life saving, you know, there's no questions about it,
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but oftentimes don't really get to the underlying issues. And
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you know, there's a lot of physiology that underpins why
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someone has mood issues, whether it's imbalances and your transmitters
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or other issues that create this mood problem that they're having.
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And I find that in conventional care we don't always
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address the underlying piece. And that's where I think for me,
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the integrative approach is so important to me because a
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more integrative approach first asks the question, Okay, well, there
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are mood issues. Possibly it's a neurotransmitter imbalance, possibly it isn't.
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But whether it is or isn't, what are really the
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underlying issues that are involved with why this person feels
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the way they do. And I think that's really where
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integrated medicine brings great value to helping people with mood issues,
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not only to help symptoms in the short term, but
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hopefully to also fix the underlying issues.
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Yeah, I would agree getting to the root cause, but
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I'm glad that you mentioned that integrative medicine also addresses
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the symptoms because that can be extremely problematic with mental health.
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So okay, so when it comes to low dose lithium,
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what is it and why is the low dose significant?
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Sure, well, lithium is a mineral. You know, people think
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about magnesium or zinc as minerals that are commonly known,
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So lithium is another mineral on the periodic table. It's
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one of the earliest minerals that kind of came to
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us after the Big Bang, you know, when molecules started
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getting together, and it's important to us because it's something
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that was used oftentimes starting in the nineteen fifties for
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patients with things like mania and bipolar disorder, used at
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very high levels, and it was found to kind of
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help tamp down some of the mania and the mood
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issues going on. And as we're learning more about lithium,
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what we're realizing is that in places where people have
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higher levels of lithium in the water, you know, what
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would be considered lower dose levels every day, people who
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are generally happier, and they are actually less suicides in
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those places, less hospitalizations for suicides. There are studies that
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were done in the nineteen seventies that confirmed that indeed,
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in environments and water and places where people lived that
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they were higher natural lithium levels, that people generally had
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less suicide and less mood issues.
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Yeah, that's I mean, I remember when we wrote about
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that early research. It was very exciting. So let's stay
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with psychiatric care. What are the benefits I mean, you
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mentioned reduce suicide, but what are the benefits of lotos
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lithium And is there even more research other than that
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early data to support those benefits.
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Yeah, well, now we know that there is research showing
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how lithium actually affects the brain right that. We know
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that there's a couple of areas of the brain, particularly
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an area called the hippocampus which is important for memory,
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an area called the amygdala, which are part of the
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brain that looks for threats, and an area called astraatum,
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which is important for reward. And we know that these
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areas are particularly well supported by lithium. And we know
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that lithium is a mineral is very neuroprotective. It protects
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the neurons from damage, it helps them rebuild themselves. It
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also helps the neurotransmitter stay in balance, and it even
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helps our circadian rhythm. You know, so many of us
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when we have mood issues, we have trouble sleeping too,
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and we think that it even can help that. So
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as far as psychiatric research for lithium, I would say
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the first ones I remember were probably dating back to
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the around the mid eighties when it was used for
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people who have who had addictions, especially to alcohol, and
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they found that there were benefits in using lithium for
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that purpose. And since then we've seen a few studies
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and animals. To tell you the truth, for psychiatric care,
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there's not a ton of studies at least not the
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level of studies I'd like to see, although now the
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interest is really growing because we are seeing studies not
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only in animals, but in clinical trials and humans showing
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benefits for memory and cognition and mood in people with Alzheimer's.
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I know, I want to talk about that because that's
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the research that I've been reading lately. But let's go
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back to psychiatric care. So in clinical practice, are the
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primary applications depression and anxiety.
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Yes, well, I see it work really well for depression,
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for anxiety, and also for impulsivity, sometimes even for focus issues,
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and not only just for adults, but even benefits and children.
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Oh that's cool, So it can be used in children.
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And you mentioned sleep, and I mean, honestly, anxiety, depression,
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all of these things that you've mentioned, they do go
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hand in hand. Poor sleep can magnify and better sleep
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can help reduce symptoms.
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Correct, exactly, exactly, Yeah, one definitely either makes the other
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better or worse. Right, Yeah, And I find when I
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work with the patient and they're having sleep issues, that's
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usually one of the priorities that I will make with
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that patient to make sure we help them sleep better
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because I know if a patient sleeps better, many things
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are going to improve. Blood sugar is going to balance,
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will balance, their detoxification system will improve, their brain will
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repair better. So there's so many benefits when people sleep better.
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Yeah, I would agree. So let's also stay on how
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it works because I like the fact that there is research,
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newer research on how it's working. And I do want
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to talk about the neuroprotective effects of it because I
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think that's really exciting. Are there other mechanisms like in
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the brain when it comes to psychiatric care or is
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it private just because it is neuroprotective.
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Well, we also know that it can help the generation
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of neurons, like young neurons grow more efficiently, and we
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know that it helps even possibly protect against other heavy metals.
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So lithium is a mineral, and oftentimes minerals that are
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good for us, like magnesium for example, can can help
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block the effects of toxic heavy metals, so things like
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mercury and cadmium, and we believe that lithium can also
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do that as well. Plus it even inhibits certain enzymes
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that break down certain proteins that are very important for
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our memory, which is why we think it's it's even
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useful for our memory.
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Yeah, that's cool. Okay, So let's talk about other benefits
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of low doos lithium. So I just read a paper
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that just came out yesterday from yesterday. Yeah, did you
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read that?
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I mean yeah, I mean I knew.
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Yeah. So tell us about this connection and if you
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have details about that particular study, tell us specifically about
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cognition Alzheimer's dementia and just that area alone. Tell us
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about that.
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Yeah. Well, as you said, hot off the press.
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So it came out in the journal of the American
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Medical Association Neurology gem in Neurology yesterday March second, and
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it was a new study with patients who are adults
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age sixty and older, and they had what was considered
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a mild impairment in their cognition, and they were either
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given a low dose lithium or placebo. And if you
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look at the elemental amount of lithium and what they
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considered low dose lithium, it was probably around fifty to
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fifty five milligrams of lithium elemental lithium. And over the study,
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which they looked at for two years, they found that
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the patients who received the lithium had less of a
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rate of decline when they looked at their memory. So
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they found that people who took it definitely did better
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in terms of memory, not that it cured it completely,
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but that the cognition was it didn't it didn't decrease
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as quickly.
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Right, which, which that's kind of what I liked about
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it because these were adults who already had some mild
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cognitive decline, so that puts them at higher risk of
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developing Alzheimer's or some other issue. So the fact that
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it delayed further decline, that's that neuroprotective part, right.
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Right, exactly.
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Yeah, neuroprotective also its ability what they call neurogenesis, the
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ability to create neuer neurons, and possibly you know, its
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ability to improve the neurotransmitters as well.
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Yeah. And it's interesting because I noticed that it's now
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being called like an anti aging mineral, which I don't
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like the term anti aging. I like healthy aging. But
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now with this you know, cognitive benefit, I can kind
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of see why it's being deemed, you know, a healthy
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aging mineral.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely, and from my perspective, it's you know, Alzheimer's and
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even now non Alzheimer's dementia. There's so many facets to it.
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It's certainly the changes in the in the nervous system
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and the and the brain are important, but also inflammation
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is a big part of it. Blood sugar imbalance is
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a big part of it. Certainly exercise and circulation is
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an important part. So if we can have a tool
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like this that can help work on minimizing the memory changes,
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then we can work on those other underlying issues at
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the same time. Because you know, when we look at
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this study, they were doing one thing, and I know
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in my practice, you know, we work on a number
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of things at the same time. So I feel that's why,
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you know, the results can be even better.
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Well, speaking of that, I read now this I didn't
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dig into as much, but maybe maybe you have. I've
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read that lotos lithium also provides cardiovascular it can benefit
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muscles and joints, and it can have other health benefits
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as well. Is that valid data?
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Well, you know, it's really interesting because when you think
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about it, when you think about minerals, whether this magnesium
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or lithium or zinc, you know, the ones we know
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about have so many beneficial effects throughout the body. What
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they call pleotropic effects, meaning it affects so many places
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that of course it makes sense that lithium itself probably
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isn't just beneficial for one body system. And we know
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that lithium does have complex cardiovascular effects. You know that
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it can that it can help kind of calm like
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the beating of the heart when it's kind of beating erratically,
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and it has protect of effects even against what they
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call it ischemic heart disease, meaning when the heart isn't
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getting as much blood as it's supposed to get, it
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can actually be protective of the heart. So yeah, I
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mean so, and we know the same with magnesium. You know,
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magnesium is good for the brain, it's good for the
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nervous system, it's good for the heart, it's good for.
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Bowel move you know, it has it.
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So it makes sense that lithium would have similar effects
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throughout the body too.
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Yeah, that's such a good point. I actually wasn't even
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comparing it to like magnesium, but like magnesium is involved
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in what like over three hundred different enzyme reactions in
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the body, and so it's logical that it would in
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fact have other health benefits. Okay, So how is low
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dose lithium used in clinical practice. What's the typical dose
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and does that dose change based on the clinical goal?
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If I'm using it to help my brain from having
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cognitive decline, is that different than if I'm anxious or depressed.
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Sure, I think it depends on the patient. It certainly
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depends on the age and the weight of the patient
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as well. I'll typically use anywhere between one milligram and
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up to twenty milligrams of lithium or tate, So sometimes
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I'll dose higher. As we just talked about that study there,
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you know, they were dosing around fifty six milligrams of
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elemental lithium. They were actually using the drug lithium carbonate
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in low doses around three hundred milligrams total, which translates
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to less and elemental lithium. So when I talk about
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using lithium, I'm talking about using what we call like
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nutritional lithium, like lithium or tate, which is quite a
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low dose of elemental lithium. And the lithium ortate is
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anywhere between one and twenty milligrams typically like in children,
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maybe one to five milligrams adults. I'll typically start around five,
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maybe move up to ten or twenty depends on the situation,
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but the general idea is that it's not something that
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I'm thinking about using. You know, they take it and
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then that night they have a good sleep, or then
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or that day they don't have any anxiety just from
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a dose. You know, it doesn't work in my opinion,
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pharmacologically that quickly. What seems to happen is that as
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the as a lithium nutritionally kind of builds in the body,
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it starts to have a beneficial effect. And that's not
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something that occurs right away. So I'm less interested in
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in dosing it higher and higher with people, but more
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interested in dosing it more, you know, more consistently.
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Yeah, I'm so glad that you brought that up, doctor Bonjono,
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because I think a lot of times people feel like
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they're going to take a dietary supplement and it's going
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to work like a drug, and that's not the case
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because the dietary supplement it works with your body and
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these things take time. So lithium oriitate, I'm glad that
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you brought that up as well, because the lithium ooritate
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is what is the nutritional supplement that's the form that
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people should look for. Is that correct?
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Yeah, I think that's a it's a good sorry the
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drop of my microphone, that is a good choice. A
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lot of good quality companies will make that. And yeah,
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so I would say look for that.
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Okay, cool, all right, So let's talk about safety. Are
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there people who should not take low dose lithium and
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are there any contraindications or adverse effects that we need
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to know about?
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Sure?
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Well, looking at the studies of the medication lithium lithium
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carbonate again, which is a much higher, much much higher dose.
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Typically the concerns are thyroid toxicity and kidney toxicity.
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Now that's what the drug.
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In my practice, I will look at profiles for people
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for thyroid and kidney before we start, just to be sure.
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But again, in my practice, after using it for many years,
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I have not seen one case of someone having any
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issues with the kidneys or with the with the thyroid.
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Yeah, that's good. And you mentioned that it can be
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used with children. Do you is the jose based on
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body weight in those cases?
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Yeah?
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Typically, typically for the little ones, we'll start with maybe
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one one milligram, you know, one milligram twice a day,
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so maybe two milligrams, you know, and that's that's for
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a bodyweight of maybe you know, forty to fifty pounds
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something like that.
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So how young can you go if and so, yeah,
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let me ask that question.
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Yeah, I would say, you know, if the behaviors are concerned,
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especially if there's a lot of impulsivity, a lot of anxiety,
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I think you can you know, I've worked with children
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with it. I would say as young as three or four.
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Okay, Yeah, and I'm assuming that this would also potentially
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be used for ADHD.
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Yes, Yeah, I think as far as ADHD goes, I
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think there are other wonderful herbs and amino acids and
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things that are also exceptional. But I would consider using
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nutritional lithium, especially if there's a strong picture of impulsivity
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that goes along with it.
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Yeah, or maybe if it's if the ADHD has a
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little bit more anxiety, or if it has some depressive
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symptoms as well.
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May perhaps right exactly, And honestly, I think most cases
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of ADHD are actually an underlying anxiety of some kind.
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So I think, yeah, probably in most cases that would
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be appropriate.
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Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Do you ever
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combine lithium with other nutrients herbs in your practice or
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do you feel lithium lotos lithium is kind of a
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standalone intervention.
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Yeah, well, you know, as an atropath doc, I think
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about working at an issue from multiple factors at the
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same time. So it's very rare that I'll consider using
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any particular natural supplement as a monotherapy without addressing anything else,
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you know. So you know, let's say we're working with
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an adolescent, for example, with impulsivity. We're going to be
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working on blood sugar regulation, making sure the food quality
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is very good, making sure that adolescent is getting to
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bed on time, and exercising their body. So we're doing
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a number of things at the same time to support
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you know, best mood and of course maybe using lithium,
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maybe using other herbs that might be calming so or
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maybe certain amino acids that support nor transmitters. So typically
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I'm not just using one substance by itself.
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Yeah, it's very holistic, it's very comprehensive. That's what I
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love about the integrative approach. How big of a role
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does diet play when you're when you're looking at mental
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health ish with your patients.
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Yeah, very important role.
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I mean, the data is so clear about processed foods,
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about foods that are you know, very inflammatory contributing to risk.
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I remember when when the studies of the Mediterranean diet
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came out in the early two thousands, you know, there
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was a lot of discussion about how a good Mediterranean
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diet could both prevent and even treat mood disorders. And
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that was very exciting because what they did was they
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started showing how when when when you ate a healthier
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diet and inflammation in the body decreased, that you also
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saw improvements in mood, right.
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I mean, and we talk about well, you know, you've
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known doctor al Schuler for a lot of years, probably
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as many years as I have, thirty. We talk about
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the medical right yeah, right, time flies doesn't.
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Goes by, doesn't it it does?
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I know, we go way back. But you know, we
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talk about the Mediterranean diet for that very reason because
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it has multiple applications, not just mental health. But you know,
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obviously we talk a lot about oncology and immune system
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and everything else, but there's so many Cardiovascular is another
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where the research is phenomenal, so many benefits to the
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Mediterranean diet. So that's that's great that you kind of
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look to that diet. Your approach is very individualized also, though,
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isn't it.
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Oh sure absolutely, you know everyone is different and I
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don't have one sheet or a recipe protocol a hand
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to people say hear, do this and you're going to
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feel better.
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You know.
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The first step is really just getting to know a patient,
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and that's why my first is an hour and a
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half because I really want time to get to know
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them and then figure out what tests might be valuable,
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to really look into underlying issues that I'm guessing might
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be a concern based on you know that there are
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discussion we had, and then really implementing a plan that
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looks at the factors that we've really ideed that seemed
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to be the main issues.
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Yeah. I mean I love your approach. That's why I've
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always enjoyed working with you. You're very science based and evidence
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based and you bring that into your clinical practice. So
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your patients are very lucky. Well, I think we may
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have lost doctor Bunjorno. Uh, but he is online. He
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has several books. So uh, it's doctor Peter Bonjoorno. B
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O N G I O R n oh look him
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00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:38.079
up because he is a wealth of information, has published
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00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:41.839
several best selling books. So if mental health issues are
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00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:45.319
concerned for you, look up doctor Peter Bunjorno. He's in
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00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.279
the New York area and he is just a wealth
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00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:56.640
of information. So definitely, oh yeah, the oh that's okay.
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00:24:57.359 --> 00:24:59.839
That happens all the time. Honestly, it happens to doctor
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00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:01.440
all surely just the other day and I'm.
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00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:02.039
Like, where are you?
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00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:07.480
Oh yeah, you so remind us of put your website
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00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:09.920
and any other social media that you'd like to send people.
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00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:10.480
Yeah, thank you.
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00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:13.839
Here, I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram. Instagram is at
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00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:17.279
doctor Peter Buanjorno, So please do you join me. I
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00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:20.720
love hearing what everyone is up to and you know
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00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:23.160
what's new for them and what's working for them as well.
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Yeah for sure. All right, well let's stay in touch.
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I'm sure I'll be inviting you back on the show
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00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:30.680
again this year, so let's stay in touch.
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00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:31.720
I would love that.
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Thank you, Kron, Thank you for all the great work
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you do bringing people such great information.
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Well, thank you and thanks again for joining me and
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talking about this important nutrient, low dose lithium. And once
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00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:46.160
again i'd like to thank our sponsors pro Thrivers Wellness
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00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:51.720
sleep formula, pro Thrivers Wellness Brain formula, Cetria Glutathione, the
429
00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:55.319
superior glutathion to support liver and immune health, and doctor
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00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:59.519
Ohira's award winning shelf Stable probiotic. Thanks for listening, and
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00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:03.599
remember you can find past shows at ithriveplan dot com
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00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:06.759
or any podcast outlet. We've been doing this now for
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00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:11.519
fourteen years. We were doing it way before podcasting was cool. Anyway,
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00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.279
May you experience joy, laughter and love. It's time to
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00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:32.559
thrive everyone, have a great night.
1
00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:16.320
Any health related information on the following show provides general
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00:00:16.359 --> 00:00:19.719
information only. Content presented on any show by any host
3
00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:22.440
or guest should not be substituted for a doctor's advice.
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00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:26.039
Always consult your physician before beginning any new diet, exercise,
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00:00:26.120 --> 00:00:54.520
or treatment program.
6
00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:57.439
Hello everyone, and welcome to Five to Thrive Live. I'm
7
00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:00.320
Carolyn Gazella and I co host the show with my
8
00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:05.400
good friend, doctor lise Al Schuller. Okay, so this month's
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00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:10.400
nutrient profile is low dose lithium. As it turns out,
10
00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:13.239
my guest and I wrote a technical paper for doctors
11
00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:17.200
on this subject several years ago. I wanted to revisit
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00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:19.959
the topic and share the information with a much broader audience,
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00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:22.120
and I wanted to talk about the new research, which
14
00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:24.640
is actually pretty exciting. So with me is one of
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00:01:24.680 --> 00:01:28.560
my go to mental health experts, doctor Peter Bonjorno, who
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00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:31.280
I've worked with over the years. He is considered a
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00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:35.280
leading expert in integrative psychiatric care and is the author
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00:01:35.319 --> 00:01:37.959
of several best selling books on that topic. But before
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00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:39.959
I bring in doctor bon Jono, I'd like to thank
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00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:44.280
our sponsors. Beginning with Cetria, a patented form of glutathione
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master antioxidant and the body's primary defense against free radicals.
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It also helps support respiratory health. For more information, visits
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Cetria Glutathione dot com. Also pro Thriver's Wellness Brain, a
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product specifically for thrivers that contains cognizant for memory, focus
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and attention, as well as other brain supporting nutrients and herbs.
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You can find pro Thrivers Wellness Brain online at pure
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at pure Formulas dot com and doctor oheer Is Probiotics.
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at Doctorohira Probiotics dot com, doctor Bunjourno. It's always a
37
00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:47.680
pleasure having you on the show. Thank you for joining me.
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Thank you, Carolyn, It's great to be here again.
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Yeah.
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So, before we dig in to low dose lithium, you
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use an integrative approach to mental health issues. Why is
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that important for you?
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Yeah, well, I mean, you know, what I see is
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that many people who come into my office are often
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already on medications. You know, when you define integrative medicine,
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you're talking about using medicine that combines both conventional medical
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care as needed, along with holistic and more functional medicine
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and atropathic care as well, and really using them together
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for the best benefits of the patient. And most of
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the patients I see who come in with mental health
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issues are typically treated with conventional medicine, which sometimes can
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be life saving, you know, there's no questions about it,
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but oftentimes don't really get to the underlying issues. And
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you know, there's a lot of physiology that underpins why
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someone has mood issues, whether it's imbalances and your transmitters
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or other issues that create this mood problem that they're having.
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And I find that in conventional care we don't always
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address the underlying piece. And that's where I think for me,
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the integrative approach is so important to me because a
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more integrative approach first asks the question, Okay, well, there
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are mood issues. Possibly it's a neurotransmitter imbalance, possibly it isn't.
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But whether it is or isn't, what are really the
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underlying issues that are involved with why this person feels
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the way they do. And I think that's really where
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integrated medicine brings great value to helping people with mood issues,
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not only to help symptoms in the short term, but
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hopefully to also fix the underlying issues.
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Yeah, I would agree getting to the root cause, but
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I'm glad that you mentioned that integrative medicine also addresses
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the symptoms because that can be extremely problematic with mental health.
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So okay, so when it comes to low dose lithium,
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what is it and why is the low dose significant?
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Sure, well, lithium is a mineral. You know, people think
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about magnesium or zinc as minerals that are commonly known,
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So lithium is another mineral on the periodic table. It's
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one of the earliest minerals that kind of came to
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us after the Big Bang, you know, when molecules started
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getting together, and it's important to us because it's something
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that was used oftentimes starting in the nineteen fifties for
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patients with things like mania and bipolar disorder, used at
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very high levels, and it was found to kind of
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help tamp down some of the mania and the mood
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issues going on. And as we're learning more about lithium,
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what we're realizing is that in places where people have
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higher levels of lithium in the water, you know, what
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would be considered lower dose levels every day, people who
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are generally happier, and they are actually less suicides in
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those places, less hospitalizations for suicides. There are studies that
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were done in the nineteen seventies that confirmed that indeed,
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in environments and water and places where people lived that
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they were higher natural lithium levels, that people generally had
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less suicide and less mood issues.
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Yeah, that's I mean, I remember when we wrote about
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that early research. It was very exciting. So let's stay
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with psychiatric care. What are the benefits I mean, you
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mentioned reduce suicide, but what are the benefits of lotos
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lithium And is there even more research other than that
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early data to support those benefits.
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Yeah, well, now we know that there is research showing
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how lithium actually affects the brain right that. We know
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that there's a couple of areas of the brain, particularly
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an area called the hippocampus which is important for memory,
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an area called the amygdala, which are part of the
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brain that looks for threats, and an area called astraatum,
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which is important for reward. And we know that these
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areas are particularly well supported by lithium. And we know
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that lithium is a mineral is very neuroprotective. It protects
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the neurons from damage, it helps them rebuild themselves. It
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also helps the neurotransmitter stay in balance, and it even
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helps our circadian rhythm. You know, so many of us
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when we have mood issues, we have trouble sleeping too,
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and we think that it even can help that. So
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as far as psychiatric research for lithium, I would say
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the first ones I remember were probably dating back to
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the around the mid eighties when it was used for
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people who have who had addictions, especially to alcohol, and
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they found that there were benefits in using lithium for
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that purpose. And since then we've seen a few studies
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and animals. To tell you the truth, for psychiatric care,
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there's not a ton of studies at least not the
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level of studies I'd like to see, although now the
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interest is really growing because we are seeing studies not
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only in animals, but in clinical trials and humans showing
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benefits for memory and cognition and mood in people with Alzheimer's.
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I know, I want to talk about that because that's
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the research that I've been reading lately. But let's go
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back to psychiatric care. So in clinical practice, are the
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primary applications depression and anxiety.
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Yes, well, I see it work really well for depression,
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for anxiety, and also for impulsivity, sometimes even for focus issues,
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and not only just for adults, but even benefits and children.
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Oh that's cool, So it can be used in children.
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And you mentioned sleep, and I mean, honestly, anxiety, depression,
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all of these things that you've mentioned, they do go
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hand in hand. Poor sleep can magnify and better sleep
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can help reduce symptoms.
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Correct, exactly, exactly, Yeah, one definitely either makes the other
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better or worse. Right, Yeah, And I find when I
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work with the patient and they're having sleep issues, that's
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usually one of the priorities that I will make with
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that patient to make sure we help them sleep better
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because I know if a patient sleeps better, many things
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are going to improve. Blood sugar is going to balance,
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will balance, their detoxification system will improve, their brain will
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repair better. So there's so many benefits when people sleep better.
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Yeah, I would agree. So let's also stay on how
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it works because I like the fact that there is research,
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newer research on how it's working. And I do want
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to talk about the neuroprotective effects of it because I
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think that's really exciting. Are there other mechanisms like in
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the brain when it comes to psychiatric care or is
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it private just because it is neuroprotective.
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Well, we also know that it can help the generation
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of neurons, like young neurons grow more efficiently, and we
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know that it helps even possibly protect against other heavy metals.
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So lithium is a mineral, and oftentimes minerals that are
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good for us, like magnesium for example, can can help
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block the effects of toxic heavy metals, so things like
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mercury and cadmium, and we believe that lithium can also
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do that as well. Plus it even inhibits certain enzymes
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that break down certain proteins that are very important for
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our memory, which is why we think it's it's even
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useful for our memory.
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Yeah, that's cool. Okay, So let's talk about other benefits
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of low doos lithium. So I just read a paper
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that just came out yesterday from yesterday. Yeah, did you
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read that?
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I mean yeah, I mean I knew.
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Yeah. So tell us about this connection and if you
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have details about that particular study, tell us specifically about
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cognition Alzheimer's dementia and just that area alone. Tell us
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about that.
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Yeah. Well, as you said, hot off the press.
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So it came out in the journal of the American
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Medical Association Neurology gem in Neurology yesterday March second, and
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it was a new study with patients who are adults
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age sixty and older, and they had what was considered
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a mild impairment in their cognition, and they were either
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given a low dose lithium or placebo. And if you
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look at the elemental amount of lithium and what they
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considered low dose lithium, it was probably around fifty to
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fifty five milligrams of lithium elemental lithium. And over the study,
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which they looked at for two years, they found that
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the patients who received the lithium had less of a
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rate of decline when they looked at their memory. So
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they found that people who took it definitely did better
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in terms of memory, not that it cured it completely,
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but that the cognition was it didn't it didn't decrease
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as quickly.
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Right, which, which that's kind of what I liked about
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it because these were adults who already had some mild
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cognitive decline, so that puts them at higher risk of
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developing Alzheimer's or some other issue. So the fact that
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it delayed further decline, that's that neuroprotective part, right.
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Right, exactly.
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Yeah, neuroprotective also its ability what they call neurogenesis, the
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ability to create neuer neurons, and possibly you know, its
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ability to improve the neurotransmitters as well.
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Yeah. And it's interesting because I noticed that it's now
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being called like an anti aging mineral, which I don't
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like the term anti aging. I like healthy aging. But
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now with this you know, cognitive benefit, I can kind
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of see why it's being deemed, you know, a healthy
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aging mineral.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely, and from my perspective, it's you know, Alzheimer's and
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even now non Alzheimer's dementia. There's so many facets to it.
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It's certainly the changes in the in the nervous system
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and the and the brain are important, but also inflammation
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is a big part of it. Blood sugar imbalance is
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a big part of it. Certainly exercise and circulation is
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an important part. So if we can have a tool
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like this that can help work on minimizing the memory changes,
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then we can work on those other underlying issues at
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the same time. Because you know, when we look at
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this study, they were doing one thing, and I know
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in my practice, you know, we work on a number
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of things at the same time. So I feel that's why,
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you know, the results can be even better.
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Well, speaking of that, I read now this I didn't
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dig into as much, but maybe maybe you have. I've
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read that lotos lithium also provides cardiovascular it can benefit
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muscles and joints, and it can have other health benefits
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as well. Is that valid data?
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Well, you know, it's really interesting because when you think
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about it, when you think about minerals, whether this magnesium
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or lithium or zinc, you know, the ones we know
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about have so many beneficial effects throughout the body. What
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they call pleotropic effects, meaning it affects so many places
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that of course it makes sense that lithium itself probably
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isn't just beneficial for one body system. And we know
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that lithium does have complex cardiovascular effects. You know that
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it can that it can help kind of calm like
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the beating of the heart when it's kind of beating erratically,
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and it has protect of effects even against what they
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call it ischemic heart disease, meaning when the heart isn't
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getting as much blood as it's supposed to get, it
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can actually be protective of the heart. So yeah, I
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mean so, and we know the same with magnesium. You know,
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magnesium is good for the brain, it's good for the
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nervous system, it's good for the heart, it's good for.
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Bowel move you know, it has it.
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So it makes sense that lithium would have similar effects
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throughout the body too.
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Yeah, that's such a good point. I actually wasn't even
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comparing it to like magnesium, but like magnesium is involved
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in what like over three hundred different enzyme reactions in
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the body, and so it's logical that it would in
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fact have other health benefits. Okay, So how is low
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dose lithium used in clinical practice. What's the typical dose
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and does that dose change based on the clinical goal?
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If I'm using it to help my brain from having
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cognitive decline, is that different than if I'm anxious or depressed.
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Sure, I think it depends on the patient. It certainly
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depends on the age and the weight of the patient
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as well. I'll typically use anywhere between one milligram and
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up to twenty milligrams of lithium or tate, So sometimes
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I'll dose higher. As we just talked about that study there,
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you know, they were dosing around fifty six milligrams of
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elemental lithium. They were actually using the drug lithium carbonate
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in low doses around three hundred milligrams total, which translates
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to less and elemental lithium. So when I talk about
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using lithium, I'm talking about using what we call like
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nutritional lithium, like lithium or tate, which is quite a
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low dose of elemental lithium. And the lithium ortate is
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anywhere between one and twenty milligrams typically like in children,
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maybe one to five milligrams adults. I'll typically start around five,
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maybe move up to ten or twenty depends on the situation,
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but the general idea is that it's not something that
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I'm thinking about using. You know, they take it and
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then that night they have a good sleep, or then
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or that day they don't have any anxiety just from
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a dose. You know, it doesn't work in my opinion,
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pharmacologically that quickly. What seems to happen is that as
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the as a lithium nutritionally kind of builds in the body,
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it starts to have a beneficial effect. And that's not
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something that occurs right away. So I'm less interested in
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in dosing it higher and higher with people, but more
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interested in dosing it more, you know, more consistently.
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Yeah, I'm so glad that you brought that up, doctor Bonjono,
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because I think a lot of times people feel like
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they're going to take a dietary supplement and it's going
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to work like a drug, and that's not the case
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because the dietary supplement it works with your body and
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these things take time. So lithium oriitate, I'm glad that
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you brought that up as well, because the lithium ooritate
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is what is the nutritional supplement that's the form that
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people should look for. Is that correct?
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Yeah, I think that's a it's a good sorry the
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drop of my microphone, that is a good choice. A
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lot of good quality companies will make that. And yeah,
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so I would say look for that.
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Okay, cool, all right, So let's talk about safety. Are
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there people who should not take low dose lithium and
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are there any contraindications or adverse effects that we need
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to know about?
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Sure?
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Well, looking at the studies of the medication lithium lithium
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carbonate again, which is a much higher, much much higher dose.
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Typically the concerns are thyroid toxicity and kidney toxicity.
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Now that's what the drug.
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In my practice, I will look at profiles for people
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for thyroid and kidney before we start, just to be sure.
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But again, in my practice, after using it for many years,
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I have not seen one case of someone having any
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issues with the kidneys or with the with the thyroid.
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Yeah, that's good. And you mentioned that it can be
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used with children. Do you is the jose based on
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body weight in those cases?
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Yeah?
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Typically, typically for the little ones, we'll start with maybe
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one one milligram, you know, one milligram twice a day,
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so maybe two milligrams, you know, and that's that's for
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a bodyweight of maybe you know, forty to fifty pounds
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something like that.
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So how young can you go if and so, yeah,
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let me ask that question.
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Yeah, I would say, you know, if the behaviors are concerned,
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especially if there's a lot of impulsivity, a lot of anxiety,
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I think you can you know, I've worked with children
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with it. I would say as young as three or four.
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Okay, Yeah, and I'm assuming that this would also potentially
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be used for ADHD.
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Yes, Yeah, I think as far as ADHD goes, I
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think there are other wonderful herbs and amino acids and
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things that are also exceptional. But I would consider using
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nutritional lithium, especially if there's a strong picture of impulsivity
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that goes along with it.
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Yeah, or maybe if it's if the ADHD has a
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little bit more anxiety, or if it has some depressive
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symptoms as well.
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May perhaps right exactly, And honestly, I think most cases
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of ADHD are actually an underlying anxiety of some kind.
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So I think, yeah, probably in most cases that would
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be appropriate.
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Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Do you ever
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combine lithium with other nutrients herbs in your practice or
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do you feel lithium lotos lithium is kind of a
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standalone intervention.
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Yeah, well, you know, as an atropath doc, I think
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about working at an issue from multiple factors at the
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same time. So it's very rare that I'll consider using
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any particular natural supplement as a monotherapy without addressing anything else,
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you know. So you know, let's say we're working with
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an adolescent, for example, with impulsivity. We're going to be
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working on blood sugar regulation, making sure the food quality
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is very good, making sure that adolescent is getting to
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bed on time, and exercising their body. So we're doing
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a number of things at the same time to support
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you know, best mood and of course maybe using lithium,
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maybe using other herbs that might be calming so or
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maybe certain amino acids that support nor transmitters. So typically
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I'm not just using one substance by itself.
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Yeah, it's very holistic, it's very comprehensive. That's what I
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love about the integrative approach. How big of a role
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does diet play when you're when you're looking at mental
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health ish with your patients.
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Yeah, very important role.
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I mean, the data is so clear about processed foods,
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about foods that are you know, very inflammatory contributing to risk.
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I remember when when the studies of the Mediterranean diet
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came out in the early two thousands, you know, there
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was a lot of discussion about how a good Mediterranean
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diet could both prevent and even treat mood disorders. And
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that was very exciting because what they did was they
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started showing how when when when you ate a healthier
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diet and inflammation in the body decreased, that you also
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saw improvements in mood, right.
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I mean, and we talk about well, you know, you've
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known doctor al Schuler for a lot of years, probably
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as many years as I have, thirty. We talk about
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the medical right yeah, right, time flies doesn't.
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Goes by, doesn't it it does?
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I know, we go way back. But you know, we
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talk about the Mediterranean diet for that very reason because
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it has multiple applications, not just mental health. But you know,
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obviously we talk a lot about oncology and immune system
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and everything else, but there's so many Cardiovascular is another
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where the research is phenomenal, so many benefits to the
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Mediterranean diet. So that's that's great that you kind of
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look to that diet. Your approach is very individualized also, though,
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isn't it.
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Oh sure absolutely, you know everyone is different and I
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don't have one sheet or a recipe protocol a hand
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to people say hear, do this and you're going to
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feel better.
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You know.
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The first step is really just getting to know a patient,
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and that's why my first is an hour and a
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half because I really want time to get to know
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them and then figure out what tests might be valuable,
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to really look into underlying issues that I'm guessing might
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be a concern based on you know that there are
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discussion we had, and then really implementing a plan that
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looks at the factors that we've really ideed that seemed
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to be the main issues.
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Yeah. I mean I love your approach. That's why I've
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always enjoyed working with you. You're very science based and evidence
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based and you bring that into your clinical practice. So
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your patients are very lucky. Well, I think we may
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have lost doctor Bunjorno. Uh, but he is online. He
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has several books. So uh, it's doctor Peter Bonjoorno. B
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O N G I O R n oh look him
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00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:38.079
up because he is a wealth of information, has published
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00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:41.839
several best selling books. So if mental health issues are
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concerned for you, look up doctor Peter Bunjorno. He's in
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the New York area and he is just a wealth
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00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:56.640
of information. So definitely, oh yeah, the oh that's okay.
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That happens all the time. Honestly, it happens to doctor
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00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:01.440
all surely just the other day and I'm.
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Like, where are you?
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00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:07.480
Oh yeah, you so remind us of put your website
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and any other social media that you'd like to send people.
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Yeah, thank you.
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00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:13.839
Here, I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram. Instagram is at
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doctor Peter Buanjorno, So please do you join me. I
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00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:20.720
love hearing what everyone is up to and you know
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what's new for them and what's working for them as well.
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Yeah for sure. All right, well let's stay in touch.
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I'm sure I'll be inviting you back on the show
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again this year, so let's stay in touch.
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I would love that.
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Thank you, Kron, Thank you for all the great work
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you do bringing people such great information.
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Well, thank you and thanks again for joining me and
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talking about this important nutrient, low dose lithium. And once
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again i'd like to thank our sponsors pro Thrivers Wellness
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00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:51.720
sleep formula, pro Thrivers Wellness Brain formula, Cetria Glutathione, the
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00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:55.319
superior glutathion to support liver and immune health, and doctor
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00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:59.519
Ohira's award winning shelf Stable probiotic. Thanks for listening, and
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00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:03.599
remember you can find past shows at ithriveplan dot com
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00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:06.759
or any podcast outlet. We've been doing this now for
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fourteen years. We were doing it way before podcasting was cool. Anyway,
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May you experience joy, laughter and love. It's time to
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00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:32.559
thrive everyone, have a great night.
