WEBVTT
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We are out of the pilot stage for so many of these things.
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We're no longer trying to convince people that these programs work and they should trust the model.
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I think it's about how big can we go and how quickly.
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Utilities and grid operators face immense pressure to meet rising electricity demand, harden their systems against extreme weather, upgrade and replace aging infrastructure, adapt to changing state and federal policies, and keep rates affordable all at once.
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It's a bit of a juggling act, and with all those balls in the air, the old school utility methods of building more supply-side solutions just don't really cut it anymore.
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As a result, distributed energy resources, DERs, or customer-sided technologies are moving beyond the margins of reliability planning to the center of attention.
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This episode of the Factor This Policycast, presented as always in partnership with National Business Association Advanced Energy United, explores how mostly behind-the-meter tools like batteries, smart thermostats, backup generators, microgrids, rooftop solar, and flexible load can be aggregated and operated as dependable grid assets.
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In an extension of a conversation that began at DTEC Reliability and Resiliency 2026 in Chicago, Illinois, I'll lead a discussion alongside Emma Hines, policy principal at Advanced Energy United, about what it takes to scale virtual power plants and other DER programs.
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The conversation, featuring Bart Jackson of Sunrun, Energy Hub's Maxwell Burke Skull, and Carrie Gurkey at Alliant Energy, yeah, it's the same last name as me.
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She spells it differently, though, will highlight practical lessons from states and utilities moving past pilots to full-scale implementation, focusing on how DERs can improve reliability, reduce peak demand, support resilience during emergencies, and lower customer costs.
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Also on the table in this conversation, utility partnerships, market design, customer enrollment, dispatch performance, interconnection, data visibility, compensation, a partridge, and a pear tree.
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Enough from me.
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If you don't know the voice and face by now, I'm Paul Gurky, content director over at Factor This.
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But I'm sure you'd like to get to know the other names in your program.
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We'll start on the Advanced Energy United side with Emma over at uh United.
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Emma, tell the people here today uh a little bit more about yourself and the relevance you bring to the topic at hand.
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Yeah, thanks, Paul.
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So my name is Emma Hines.
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I am the Wisconsin policy principal with Advanced Energy United.
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So I lead our state work um here in Wisconsin.
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So I am very excited to be talking about um scaling DER pilots.
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Um Wisconsin is definitely a market where we have some room to grow.
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So I'm excited to chat with you all today.
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All right, Max, let's get you in next.
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You've got the most names.
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So I feel like you it would make sense if you went next.
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Yeah, definitely the longest name.
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I appreciate that.
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Thanks, Paul.
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Um my name is Max Burkskohl.
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I'm the director of client success for the Midwest and Northeast for Energy Hub.
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Um, Energy Hub is a platform that utilities utilize to uh orchestrate uh their flexibility of their customer-sided devices.
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We integrate with about 80 plus different OEMs across batteries, commercial industrial, thermostats, uh, EVs, pool pumps, water heaters.
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On the utility side, we integrate with utility systems with their CIS, grid derms, market interfaces, and billing.
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That's about 230 utilities, 300 plus flexibility programs, 2.6 million devices under management, and about three and a half gigawatts of flexible load capacity across 30 states and Canada.
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Hey, Bart, uh, why don't you introduce yourself next?
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Uh thanks, Paul.
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Thanks, Emma.
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Uh, my name is Bart Jackson.
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I'm with Sunrun, uh, the nation's largest rooftop solar and storage uh installer.
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We uh apologies for the background.
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I am I'm at the airport right now, so I'm very, very grateful.
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The background looks great, Bart.
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It looks like it's curated.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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Um but yeah, so Sunrun was founded in 2007 uh in California, and today we operate in 22 states across the country.
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We have over a million customers, um, and nearly 270,000 of our customers have battery storage, which is sort of a Swiss Army knife for the grid.
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Um more recently, our most recent quarter, I think 74% of all of our new solar installations are coming with batteries across the country, uh, which is super exciting uh for the conversation we're having today, because um, you know, solar paired with batteries uh can can do a lot for resilience, reliability, and you know, helping people manage their bills.
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So looking forward to this discussion.
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Me too.
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And I'm also looking forward to introducing the last member, certainly not least, of the panel today.
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Carrie, where'd you get that last name?
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Well, I just inherited it, but uh uh weird same.
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Proud to keep the H.
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Uh hi, uh Carrie Gherky with Alliant Energy.
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I'm the senior manager of customer load management.
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Um we have two utilities, uh one in Iowa and one in Wisconsin.
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Um, and our team manages energy efficiency, demand response, and electrification, so right at the heart of a lot of this conversation.
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Um try to have a really full demand stack uh with the VPPs and traditional C and I programs, um, and excited to chat with you all again.
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You guys were so quick with the intros, which I appreciate because this is the most robust policy cast we've ever had.
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We've got a full house here, five total speakers, and I'm a bit of a uh motor mouth, so I'll try to keep my part limited.
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I want to dive right into the topic at hand because when we're talking about DERs, it's a pretty expansive issue.
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We've seen them move from these nice to have reliability resources when we're talking about planning conversations for utilities and grid operators to more of a front burner issue over the last few years.
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And I think a lot of that has to do with the obvious, the electricity demand that we're seeing, the desire to keep rates lower.
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But for the panel, what do you think has changed in the last five years that has really ushered in this era of the DERs that we seem to be starting here?
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I think it is, you touched on it, it's the load, the load growth.
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Technology was headed this direction, but you know, without the the load growth that's coming on and the need for more flexible load to to balance out the generation stack, um, not sure you would see quite the level that we're experiencing right now.
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Yeah, I think I'll echo Kerry that there is certainly due to reindustrialization, electrification, um, data centers, load growth, extreme weather, there is a there is a rising pull for grid flexibility.
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But I think there's a second part to that answer, which is they the resources themselves got operationally trustworthy.
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And five years ago, 10 years ago, a DR program was a load reduction estimate and then a settlement report.
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And today we are delivering telemetry, forecasting, locational and deterministic forecast, uh, dispatch, and performance measurement and uh a robustness to the data and the fidelity and the latency of the data that really allows a control room and a grid operator to trust in the resource.
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We're also scaling.
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And Bart's going to talk about the wild numbers of battery attachments that that Sunrun has achieved in some of their flexibility programs.
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So there is a point, and in my experience, it's somewhere between like 10 and 15,000 devices enrolled, where it stops being a side of the desk or a customer program or a marketing program and starts being like very impactful at the grid operator level.
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And I think we've achieved that at scale in a number of programs, a number of regions around the country.
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And so that that trustworthiness of the resource is really, I think, the second part of the story, and maybe the part of the story that's overlooked because of the demand that's rising for the first time in two decades.
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But I think it's both.
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Yeah, I would, I would echo that, Max, and thanks for that uh transition.
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I think um our resources are are really fast to deploy.
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You know, I I think um residential does about a gigawatt a year of capacity, so like roughly a nuclear power plant.
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Um, and you know, can traditional power plants of of any variety um take a lot longer to site, plan, build, etc.
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Um, and so so bringing that, you know, the speed to the to the power uh is pretty exciting.
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I I would say about half of our battery fleet is enrolled in some sort of virtual power plant program um across the country, which is super exciting.
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And then this week we actually announced um there's a there's a program in California called the Demand Side Grid Support Program or the DSGS program.
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Um that program has existed for the for the past few years.
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Uh 200,000 batteries are enrolled from a bunch of different um the you know uh companies.
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Um and the the way that the program has been set up is that uh when the wholesale cost of power um goes over$200 a megawatt hour, there's a price trigger that says, uh, you know, we need the batteries, we need the capacity.
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And so that actually happened uh several weeks ago.
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And we're Sunrun was like pleased to be a part of that.
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Um and we dispatched uh collectively uh 580 megawatts over two hours in California during a heat wave.
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Um so we were pretty excited about that announcement.
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Um and it's the first time actually that that$200 price trigger has been hit, um, which is super cool to see.
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Like the program was designed to to you know respond to that price and it and it did.
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Um so we were super excited about that.
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So so yeah, it's it's coming, it's coming from you know, speed to power deploying quickly, and then showing up when it's called upon.
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So so I guess I I would I would argue like we don't need pilots anymore.
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We we we've proven this out, but I know we'll we'll probably get to that further in in the conversation.
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No, I think that's a great point though, Bart.
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I feel like we get stuck in that pilot part of the conversation.
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Like, look at what's possible, and we sometimes lose sight of, especially considering how large the United States is and how diverse those programs can be, that we don't have to wonder what's possible.
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Look at what's actually happening.
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And I'm glad you brought up the DSGS program.
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It's actually something we've had our eye on on this show.
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Stay tuned to the factor of this policy cast for a future edition focused on the DSGS programs and the unique challenges they're facing out there in California.
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Emma, I want to bring you in on the policy side about misconceptions, because I think it's a very natural segue from where we just ended that last thought, and that's that there's this misconception that maybe the technology or the dispatch part of it is not quite where we need it to be to count on this as a reliable grid resource.
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But Bart just told us 500 plus megawatts dispatched over a two-hour period, that's nothing to sneeze at.
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When we're talking to policymakers and regulators about how we handle virtual power plants and in a broader scope DERs, what are those misconceptions that you encounter?
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And I'd love to hear from the the rest of you as well.
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Yeah, I think the biggest misconception is that this is, you know, a brand new program and brand new technologies.
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We don't understand how they act.
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And so we can't count on them as for firm load.
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Um, I think I hear that all the time with you know regulatory staff, with legislators.
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And I think it's so helpful to be able to point to other markets that are a little more developed and say, look at all these member companies we have who are doing these pilots and they are actually, you know, causing a shift in demand and supply capacity during these peak outages or peak periods.
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I think that's the biggest misconception is that, you know, we don't understand how these programs work or how people respond.
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But when you're operating programs this big, people do act more predictably as a large group than you would think.
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Yeah, I think I'd I'd echo the firmness question uh or the the comment that Emma made about the reliability of the resource.
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And there is kind of this uh, I think, misconception that because uh customer choice, and we should we should talk, and I hope we do talk about how important customer choice and agency is.
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Um customer choice means that we, that there is a durating of the firmness of the resource.
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And and to to put a uh kind of a more concrete example on that, well, if the customer can opt out of participating, can I trust that they're gonna show up when I call the event?
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And the answer to that is a resounding yes, because that duration, that um, that customer opt-out behavior is modeled into the tens of thousands of events that Energy Hub and other uh distributed energy resource management system providers like us have done in the market over the past 15 to 20 years.
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So we know what the customer behavior is, and we are factoring that anticipated customer behavior, that customer opt-out, when in the event duration that will happen.
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And we are all factoring that into how we deliver and forecast the um the load reduction, when it'll happen, how stable it will be, and how consistent it will be over the duration of that event, whether it's a one hour, two hour, four-hour event, right?
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We know who is going to opt out and when and how many, because we have done this tens of thousands of times before across large populations of participants.
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So that duration is already factored in.
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So it's no different to me than, and I'm not a power plant operator, not a grid operate plant or a grid operator, but anticipating that there will be some duration of the availability of a generation resource that sometimes plants will go down, or sometimes plants will need maintenance, or sometimes uh generation fleets will need maintenance.
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To me, it's just another engineering problem to solve.
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In this case, it's the participation duration of when will customers opt out.
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And we know it.
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So we can tell you how firm and we can forecast very clearly when the resource will show up, what the capacity of that resource will be, and how long that resource will be available.
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And it's proven out through tens of thousands of events that we've run over the past 15 or 20 years.
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I think there's a second piece that's not about the recognition or duration of the resource, which is um there is not yet a standardized planning grade regular recognized resource classification for DER.
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So uh what I mean by that is that uh it would be wonderful for the role of these resources if there was a broadly agreed upon capacity accreditation methodology and even uh measurement and verification M and V approaches.
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Um, and similarly, uh consistent cost recovery for flexibility the way there is for concrete and steel.
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Right.
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And so until a planner at a utility can put flexibility on the same page as a peaker plant investment with comparable uh credation and comparable earnings treatment, we're asking flexibility resources, which Bart and I have already talked about how they show up, and and Carrie will probably talk about how they show up for the utilities.
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We're we're asking them to compete with generation investments with one hand tied, not because it's performs any differently or performs worse, but because it there's no standard way to count and value it across different utilities and across different regulatory jurisdictions.
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Yeah, I think it starts with balance, just sort of peeling off of that of thinking about the generation or the supply stack and how you can balance it with your demand stack and where it it fits in either price-wise or you know what the capacity is available or number of hours you're able, you know, to run based on the the technology that you're calling on for the customer, a battery, a generator, a thermostat, they're all going to have you know some different um impacts that they're able to bring forward.
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So, but I do think it is just about how it layers in, and that's how we're really thinking about it from a resource planning perspective of bidding it into that overall stack.
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And then I think you probably have a third stack of the customer-owned generation, you know, where the where the solar and the and the batteries that are not deploying as part of a demand response or load flexibility event, but the customer is deploying them for their own uses, how those all fit together under one single pane of glass is something that it you know will make an impact going forward.
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If I could jump back to something Emma said about you know regulatory, I think that is something we are working on as well, bringing the regulators along from something they know very well to how do we evaluate a standard generation plant or even renewables now, but to how do they evaluate and when can you bring forward the new projects and and because it can deploy quickly does not mean the regulatory process happens as fast as you might be able to deploy them.
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So I think that's just another hurdle that we're that we're working on to be able to help the regulators and the stakeholders in the jurisdictions understand how it works so that we can move the regulatory process faster so that it can be deployed and scaled up more quickly instead of taking 12 or 18 months to get approval on moving forward with the program.
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Yeah, I would just I would just add, you know, it's very exciting.
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And I and I just kind of always go back to how grid operators, you know, in their infancy with utility scale solar, utility scale wind, like how are we going to predict when the wind is blowing and the sun is shining?
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And like so I think we are still as DERs like in that early stage where folks are just trying to figure out um, you know, like how to rely on these resources and stuff.
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So, you know, and there is a little inertia involved.
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And so like I think it's our job um to to keep telling the story about about how these resources are are effective and and and show up when when called upon.
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Um one just misconception piece, you know, like uh is it cost effective, is is for ratepayers, for customers, all of that.
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Uh there's the Connected Solutions program on the East Coast and in Connecticut.
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I think I think the uh the the payment for performance is around$300 uh per KWH.
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And the the ratepayer impact score for that um is nearly or almost two, meaning that it the return on the on the cost um pencils quite nicely.
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So, you know, just just one example, but I think to Max's point, having having some sort of standard across the country would be quite helpful, um, you know, so that so that folks are singing from the same song sheet for sure.
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Yeah, it's a good point.
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And Max mentioned that, and we'll get into this again in just a second, but how customers really ultimately determine whether or not these programs are successful.
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I want to talk about what is successful in these programs, what actually works.
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You know, we mentioned a minute ago, maybe it's time to move past the word pilot, but in those pilots, we learn things that then make it into full-scale implementation.
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What are some of those lessons, Bart?
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I know you've been involved in a lot of them uh with Sunrun, so maybe we'll start with you on this one.
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What are what's one of those takeaways from a pilot that you're like, oh yeah, that's how we should be doing things from now on?
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Yeah, I would answer this by looking at the um, you know, smart thermostats, smart devices, hot water heaters, um, and then and then batteries.
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In in the perfect world with a battery that's discharging back to the grid during times of big demand, like you don't know that that's happening.
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You can't feel it in your house.
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You're not setting your temperature higher, et cetera.
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Um, I I would say in different markets, we've made different choices on how much of that battery capacity remains in each battery during those discharge events.
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So in most places, and the customers can choose, you know, if if you know the Tesla Powerwall has like storm mode, so you can, you know, say I want 100% of my battery, don't want it to participate in an event because XYZ reason.
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Um but typically we we leave about a 20% reserve to to have so that our customers can have the resilience benefit of the battery.
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Um, I would say in Puerto Rico, uh we leave a 70% reserve.
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And so because the grid is so much less reliable there, that is something that we've learned um is what our customers want um to be able to have backup.
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But also, you know, we get a lot of feedback from from customers about like, I'm really excited that this can help the grid stay online, you know, and and that is like people feel like they're actually part of the solution, um, which I don't know if we like thought about when we were designing these things, but like the the people are really excited to participate.
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Bart hit on a good note of saying, you know, we want it to be the least impact to the customer's daily life while participating.
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So, you know, you're looking at event duration, the number of times you call it per year, what are the triggers that you're calling it for?
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How do you stack the different devices so that you can extend the event while not calling on one?
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Customer device, you know, for a whole event period.
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I think those are are really important and have been critical to increasing customer satisfaction and decreasing the customer opt-outs so that model can really work and be delivering the per device shift that you're that you're targeting.
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The other thing I think starts even before that and is just making it really easy for a customer to enter a program.
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We want to say what's the least number of clicks that we can deliver a message to a customer that gets them enrolled.
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We tested out a campaign this year where we had an opt-in to a behavioral program with a one-click enrollment.
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So a personalized email that was authenticated.
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:53.519
So they literally could just have one press inside the email and they're enrolled in a program.
00:22:53.599 --> 00:23:02.559
They didn't have to go to a website and go four clicks deep to find the program they wanted and then verify their identity and then click enroll.
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:15.680
So I think that ease of enrolling is step one to getting more customers involved and then making it easy while they're in to stay enrolled and not opt out in programs.
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:16.319
Yeah.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:27.200
I I will personally attest to uh the the ease of both enrolling and staying in um Carrie's Alliant Energy Smart Hours program.
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:32.480
Um it's not a program we run, but it is a program that I participate in as an Alliant customer.
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:37.440
Um and we are kind of at the tail end of the cooling season here in Wisconsin.
00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:40.000
It was 45 degrees last night.
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:46.160
Um, but reflecting on our experience for my household um over the summer, right?
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:51.599
Like we didn't notice that events were happening until I checked my email and saw, like, oh, an event had happened, right?
00:23:51.759 --> 00:24:07.839
And so when you think about the the customer experience layer of how this interacts with the the flexibility and capacity for the grid, um, the example that I like to call out is thinking about uh EV drivers.
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:18.720
And in Energy Hub's experience of uh implementing managed charging programs, right, there was an we indexed on early on in flawless program design.
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:24.400
How do we get the most flexibility per EV that's plugged in when we need it, where we need it on the grid?
00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:25.200
Right.
00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:43.759
What happens though is if you have one bad experience as an EV driver, if you have one morning where you wake up or one one early morning when you need to be somewhere and your EV is not at the state of charge that you expect it to be and need it at to be, the program doesn't lose that event capacity.
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:49.039
The program loses that capacity of that customer forever, right?
00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:58.880
So we build our active managed charging programs around the hard constraint that a vehicle hits its target state of charge before the departure.
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:01.359
And the driver can override at any time.
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:03.680
There's no penalty, there's no friction.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:14.880
And those are concessions to customer experience that are made for the grid objective, but they are also an investment in maintaining the scale and building the scale of the capacity for the resource.
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:20.160
Because if you make the customer experience poor, you won't have the program.
00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:22.400
You won't have the resource when you need it.
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:33.680
And so um, those are the kinds of lessons that are that are meaningfully learned in pilots and program design that have to be informed as we continue to grow and scale flexibility programs.
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:42.160
And I think, you know, not only do you get rid of that customer forever, you probably lose that customer and their five closest friends.
00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:45.119
Like that's an experience that someone would probably talk about.
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:54.000
And then you have that kind of mental picture of, oh, I don't want to, you know, participate in that program because Joe, you know, couldn't drive to the airport at four in the morning.
00:25:54.079 --> 00:25:56.319
So that customer experience part is really important.
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:06.960
Another thing we've learned from pilots is uh we would love to be able to enroll all of our customers in a given grid services program at point of sale.
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:15.599
Um but because you know, we're I think we're in 22 plus grid services programs across the country, maybe 25.
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:22.480
Um there are some places where we install customers that don't yet have an existing grid services program.
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:30.480
And so we have worked on updating our customer contracts to allow for future participation uh in those events.
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:37.759
And so that's something that we've learned through through the pilot, you know, process is point-of-sale enrollment is much smoother and cleaner.
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:45.440
Bart, a colleague of yours over uh uh at Sunrun once told me something that stuck with me through the years that customers don't care about virtual power plants.
00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:47.759
They care about warm showers and cold beer.
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:52.000
And I think that that speaks to the larger narrative that you all just sort of described.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:58.079
You all got into some really rich customer behaviors and techniques we can use to drive longer-term participation.
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:05.599
Is there anything we left on the table there, learnings about the customer experience and ways that we can make these virtual power plants more streamlined and effective?
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:39.279
Maybe just as evidenced by the panel today, I think it's it's made for new partnerships in places where maybe utilities may have been in conflict um with some of the vendors or competition, a particular thinking about solar, but it's it's really brought new partnerships forward where we can collaborate and work together to um help harness that customer flexible load, um, particularly at the residential level, but across all customer classes that maybe we didn't do as good of a job in the past.
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:54.480
Um, but being able to work with the the different vendor partners and OEMs is really key because the utilities aren't able, you know, to to manage and install devices in all of the places where we might want them or customers might be interested in them.
00:27:54.640 --> 00:28:00.720
So it's really brought forward a new level of partnerships as well that has helped move the needle.
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:17.839
Yeah, I would just I would just add, um, I think a learning is the except for the people having this conversation, most customers are not like deep in energy worlds and like tracking, okay, like how much does my fridge use, how much does my dryer use?
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:19.519
Um and that's okay.
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:24.079
And like we like we don't need everyone to become an energy expert.
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:31.039
Um, we just you know, the to quote my former colleague um or maybe current colleague, I don't know.
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:33.680
Is it is it is Chris Rouscher still with Sunrun?
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:34.960
He he recently left.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:35.200
Yes.
00:28:35.599 --> 00:28:35.920
I'm sorry.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:37.839
I'm glad I'm glad you brought that up then.
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:39.920
Shout out to Chris wherever you're at these days.
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:40.720
That was a great line.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:42.319
I'm still using it three years later.
00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:46.480
Yeah, no, I I love it, and it's a sentiment that I completely agree with.
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:48.960
Is it's we want these things to work.
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:53.359
Um and and so we want it to be seamless.
00:28:53.519 --> 00:29:01.920
The the other sort of learning we've had is you know, in the electrification journey, um going solar and storage is often sort of a gateway drug, right?
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:05.920
It's like, okay, I got my solar and storage, and like now can I electrify my stove?
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:07.680
Now can what about my hot water heater?
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:15.440
You know, and so that that's great and that's wonderful, but but I I think most customers are not the energy nerds and like thinking about this stuff all the time.
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:16.640
And that's that's totally fine.
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:28.480
I'll use some data that Energy Hub has collected to kind of build from that point that you're making, Bart, about who who how do people, the lay person, think about these programs if they think about them at all.
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:44.240
So um I run a portfolio of programs in the Northeast where the statewide program has been operating for 20 years and they have a very robust brand presence and marketing budget to promote that state program.
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:54.640
Um we ran a survey in 2025 to see how do the the lay participants and non-participants think about that program.
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:59.839
And 60% had never recalled seeing or receiving any marketing from that program.
00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:02.720
So they don't know it exists.
00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:19.440
And it's not they considered it and they declined it, it's that they're genuinely aware and knowing from being in this industry about 15 years, uh, how different utilities in different states are allowed to spend on marketing, that it is, if not the richest marketing budget in the country, in the certainly in the top five, right?
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:25.599
For how much has been spent building the brand, making people aware of it, promoting the opportunity to participate, right?
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:29.839
And still 60% of survivor respondents haven't heard about it.
00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:36.960
So Carrie brought up the answer a few minutes ago, which is what do you do if the layperson hasn't heard of these programs?
00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:39.200
It and how do you build their awareness?
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:42.079
We push enrollment to the point of device purchase.
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:43.680
So point of sale, as Bart mentioned.
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:46.240
We push enrollment into the OEM's own app.
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:56.480
So when I installed the EcoBee in my new house in 2023, in my startup experience, it drove me to signing up for the Alliant program, right?
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:05.599
And so expecting customers to look for and think about a utility program first is kind of backwards.
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:14.880
You need them, you need to meet them where they are, and that is they're buying the new thermostat, they're interested in solar storage, or they're excited about their new EV, or they've just installed a new water heater.
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:17.680
And that's where you're going to capture the customer enrollment.
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:25.359
And I think, I think that's generally known in the industry of both uh platform providers as well as OEMs and utilities.
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:36.400
But it is really critical that even after 20 years of these programs running at scale and investing in their brand awareness and marketing, the best place to capture a customer is upfront with their device.
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:38.079
That's a great point, Max.
00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:49.200
And I want to bring Emma back into this from a policy perspective again, because I think that's a really natural transition to how do we ensure accessibility when we're talking about these programs?
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:55.359
It's not everybody is going to be up at the counter at point of sale buying their new home battery energy storage system.
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:57.440
Those things are not exactly inexpensive.
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:03.759
So, how do renters, how do low-income households, how do those without a rooftop to install solar get in on this action?
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:07.680
Uh, Emma, let's start with you and I'm sure the others have some thoughts on this as well.
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:08.880
Yeah, absolutely.
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:11.200
I'm definitely interested in hearing what others have to say.
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:14.880
But I think, you know, a really important point would be making it multi-technology.
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:20.000
Um, it's a lot easier to buy a Google Nest thermostat than it is to install a battery in your home.
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:27.920
Um, and you know, some of these smaller technologies, they still provide really important capacity and they provide a really important benefit to the person who's using it.
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:34.000
Like I know so many people who have bought a smart water heater or a smart thermostat because they want to be able to adjust it from their phone.
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:36.880
Um, you know, they have no idea of what a virtual power plant is.
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:40.240
They have no idea anything about grid services, but it's a benefit to them.
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:47.759
So we can use that motivation of wanting to just upgrade something in their own home or their apartment and kind of bring it into this new program.
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:56.480
So that's what sticks out to me at this point is just making sure that the kind of the full suite of technologies are able to participate in these programs.
00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:01.759
I'm gonna take it a step farther and say it can be no technologies.
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:02.480
There you go.
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:27.119
And if you're thinking of behavioral programs, we've I I mentioned the the one-click enrollment in a behavioral demand response, but we also launched uh this summer in Wisconsin an opt-out version where we uh automatically enrolled 279,000 customers in what we call peak time rewards, but it's the all carrot, no stick, no device behavioral program.
00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:39.759
So we send you the message, um, email or text, you tell us how you want to be communicated with, and then you reduce your usage during that event time period however you want to or however you can.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:49.680
You can shift when you do a load of laundry, you can shift when you wash the dishes, or you can adjust your thermostat or change when you charge your EV.
00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:54.640
And we're seeing great participation and good loadshed from customers who have those devices.
00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:00.160
But I think it also goes down to just no technology required to be in a VPP program.
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:02.240
Behavioral also works great.
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:11.599
I just have to put a pin in this, Carrie, because we're on a streak on the factor this policy cast of coming up with excellent t-shirt slogans for the clean energy industry.
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:20.559
And I gotta say, all carrot no stick with on one side and the other that says no technology needed, that's not gonna sell.
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.119
I'm just saying these are great ideas.
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:26.079
This is great branding from a group of experts, clearly.
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:28.800
Shoot, I there's a registered trademark on that.
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:29.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:31.360
No, it's no, it belongs to the show now.
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:33.119
Sorry, I think that's how it works.
00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:34.960
Max, what do you think?
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:52.960
Yeah, I think I want to challenge the assumption that um that while participation equity matters, um, there are, as Carrie and Emma have already called out, pathways to participation for low and moderate income participants.
00:34:53.440 --> 00:35:10.559
But what I think I want to make clear is that while technologies like battery storage and rooftop solar are ownership gated, the system benefits uh in affordability and resiliency and reliability to all ratepayers are not gated.
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:27.840
So just because my house doesn't have uh, or you know, I don't I don't have a battery on my home doesn't mean I wouldn't bat benefit from a system perspective of a scale battery uh virtual power plant or grid flexibility program in in the jurisdiction that I live in, right?
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:40.960
These large benefits are delivering for all ratepayers on an affordability level, on a flexibility level, and on a resiliency level, regardless of whether or not an individual rate payer is participating.
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:58.079
So, well, I do think like it's an important lens for us to apply to these programs is how do we make sure that there are pathways through participation for all types of ratepayers, whether they're small business or residential or low or moderate income, multifamily, um, and there are pathways for them to participate.
00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:13.199
The biggest benefit for everyone with a meter attached is the benefit derived to the system and not having to pay for upgrades or deferring upgrades for five or six years, or not not having to add new generation and having to invest in that generation.
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:22.159
So it's using the electrons we already have more carefully and thoughtfully and more orchestration, deliver system benefits for everyone.
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:44.400
So it's kind of twisting your question a little bit, and maybe that's not the answer you're expecting, but I think it's an important way that we advocate for the values that these grid flexibility programs derive for ratepayers, especially given all the pressure we're facing right now around affordability and the concerns kind of in the national conversation around it, that you don't need to have a smart thermostat enrolled in one of these programs.
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:51.039
You don't need to have an EV to still see the benefit from a systems perspective as an individual ratepayer.
00:36:51.280 --> 00:37:12.639
I was just gonna say I'm really glad that you brought that up because that's a conversation I've had a couple of times this year, um, either with regulators or legislators or even just candidates that are running for office right now, is there's a pretty direct financial benefit to keeping the grid online if you're a lower moderate income customer, even if you don't have anything because it costs money to replace medication that needs to be refrigerated.
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:18.000
If your fridge is offline because there's a power outage, um that's a pretty direct financial benefit.
00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:25.920
If your freezer isn't cold anymore and you have to throw away all the Costco chicken breasts that you had stored in there, like that's a that's a savings for you.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:34.400
It might not come in the same form as a gift card from your utility or a bill credit or whatever the payment mechanism is, but that's pretty easy for a lot of ratepayers to quantify.
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:46.159
And it circles back to what Bart led us off with about the ratepayer impact test, demand response programs all pass that test, the economic test very, very well.
00:37:46.400 --> 00:38:01.039
And and not only the real impacts of my I didn't lose my refrigerator and the things that are in it, but it does have the the impact of holding down rates and or delaying future cases potentially.
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:03.920
So yeah, all DR is good DR.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:07.039
It's cost effective, it's worthwhile, we need to be doing it.
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:09.280
Let's fast forward a few years.
00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:22.800
We're looking into the future, and for whatever reason, the factor of this policy cast still exists, and I'm still in this chair in this lovely little home office, and I've wrangled this group together again to talk about how we're gonna scale DERs to the next level.
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:24.639
How did we get there?
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:31.760
What decisions did we make as utilities, regulators, technology providers, policymakers to accelerate a transition?
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:40.639
And if it doesn't accelerate and we somehow come up short and DERs are never fully realized the ways that you just mentioned, what did we step in?
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:42.159
What mistakes did we make?
00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:44.239
Let's look into our crystal balls and figure it out.
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:46.320
I'll I'll take the bravest one of you first.
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:54.000
Well, I think we're gonna have to see a consolidation under the edge germs, as Max was mentioning earlier.
00:38:54.159 --> 00:38:58.719
Uh I think people have utilities have started a lot of different programs under different platforms.
00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:22.480
I think that growing success is gonna be consolidation under one platform where you can, as Max said, orchestrate all of your DERs together in in one platform and you make it uh simple for your grid operators or you can make it simple for your energy markets team to be able to look at when should these resources be deployed, when does it make sense for grid support?
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:34.480
When do the economics hit that you know it's your least cost option to be able to be deploying these customer resources rather than um you know buying additional energy on the grid when prices are high.
00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:45.599
So I think that orchestration under that single pane of glass with with one edge germs provider is really going to be crucial and where we will be at in the future, I think.
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:47.119
Yeah, I love that, Carrie.
00:39:47.199 --> 00:40:18.320
And I'll I'll take it even up one level from there because uh we are orchestrating uh if you if you look at some of our Northeast portfolios where we uh and programs where when we look at peak peak behavior uh for the summer, we're dispatching commercial industrial resources, we're dispatching uh background capacity, we're dispatching um batteries, EV managed chargings, and thermostats, and we're structuring those dispatch strategies in a way to deliver for whatever that need may be.
00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:33.840
Is it we need uh we need a four-hour event with a very consistent load shed we dispatch through something called dynamic load shaping, which the idea is that it it staggers the kind of individual tranches or groups or devices to make sure that the load curve is as predictable as possible for over four hours.
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:48.559
It could be that we we know when that system peak is going to hit, and we need to have the biggest economic impact we can for that hour, in which case we're gonna have a slightly different orchestration in that single pane of glass, right, of our edge derms of the devices.
00:40:48.800 --> 00:41:04.239
But taking it up a level in where we want to be in five years, you'll hear Energy Hub talk about our virtual power plant maturity kind of context, which is how do we evolve this to be comparable to and functioning as a full grid asset?
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:12.719
And one of one of the things that we are heavily investing in as an industry right now is the connection between grid derms and edge derms.
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:32.000
So that rather than being a um a series of devices that are providing capacity to the grid when called, that capacity is appearing in the same kind of topology and distributed distribution level optimization that the grid operators are using in their control room.
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:42.320
So today, uh I have clients that can dispatch our edge derm aggregations of resources from their gridderm software.
00:41:42.400 --> 00:42:06.719
And I think that's a maturity step that you'll see a lot of utilities take over the next five years is moving the resources that are calling the hitting the button to dispatch, whether it's thermostats or EVs or batteries or all of the above from uh uh directly in the edge derms to their gridderms dispatching into the edge derms that energy hubs provide.
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:19.199
So really excited about connecting that plumbing and really excited to have the first few use cases where gridderms dispatch is actually hitting energy hub enrolled uh resources this summer.
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:31.519
And I think that's one big step forward in bringing this the scale of these resources out of customer programs or out of marketing portfolios or out of DSM portfolios and bringing them into the control room.
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:49.599
Um and we couldn't have done it with all the great work and all the great pilots that utilities like Alliant have done over the years to validate that this is a this is a um consistent, firm resource that you can count on and you can balance where it fits right in your grid management strategy.
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:59.280
So in five years, there's gonna be more grid derms dispatching these types of events than there will be being dispatched in strictly in an edge terms platform.
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:03.440
Max was talking about the plumbing, uh, Emma.
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:05.760
Let's get into the pipeworks of legislation.
00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:11.599
Uh, what can our lawmakers do better to ensure this uh take off of DERs continues?
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:19.840
Yeah, I guess I actually kind of want to jump back to the previous question of, you know, what how does uh what does success look like in five years?
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:25.679
And I really think, you know, I'm coming at this as not an implementer of DER programs or things like that.
00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:31.840
So from more of a 30,000-foot view, but I'm looking at, you know, integrated resource planning processes and stuff.
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:35.920
How are we considering DERs in that portfolio planning?
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:42.159
Is it something that, you know, industry and advocates are having to really fight tooth and nail for and say, no, no, this is firm capacity.
00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:43.280
You should be using it.
00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:49.599
We can get it online faster than like a traditional resource or something that takes longer to cite and permit for.
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:53.440
Um, or is that just kind of a part of the utility modeling?
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:59.679
And they say, okay, we can pull X number of megawatts from DERs and VPPs, and then we'll kind of fill.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.519
Rest with things that take longer to build.
00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:03.920
So to me, that's what that's what success looks like.
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:21.679
The proof for it for me will be, and this is starting to happen, is when planners say that this project that had a name, the XYZ line or the ABC substation upgrade is deferred or canceled because of flexibility.
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:34.159
And we are starting to see as we scale non-wire alternatives and bridge to wire uh projects with some of our clients, we are seeing those named projects, right, that are planned deferred.
00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:37.760
And there's a clear window of for how long they're deferred.
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:50.159
Is we think based on our flexibility resource in this part of our grid, this location, we can defer that upgrade for two to three years and talk about cost efficacy, right?
00:44:50.400 --> 00:45:14.960
When you're able to put off those large-scale capital investment projects, even a couple seasons because of the flexibility resource that you've already enrolled, that's when this is really maturing to a point where you know that you have the trust in the planners, in the regulators, and in the grid operators to say, uh, okay, I don't have to build this thing next year, or I don't have to build this thing in three years, I can build it in five or seven.
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:18.079
And talk about how that flows back to rate payers and value.
00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:18.559
Right.
00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:34.320
And so that in five years, we'll be popping the champagne to celebrate maybe not the the cancellation of those projects, but the deferral of those projects and the defraying of those costs to rate payers over a longer window of time because of grid flexibility scaling and showing up.
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:47.119
I think that works, but only perhaps from the utility perspective, to the extent that the load growth just isn't doesn't overwhelm the what can you defer.
00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:51.440
So if load is growing at the pace that you just need all of the above.
00:45:51.599 --> 00:46:03.920
So you may or be are not deferring a project, but that maybe the size is altered because you're able to bring you know hundreds of megawatts of of the VPP into the planning, as Emma was mentioning.
00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:06.159
It's part of the resource plan, it's there.
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:08.400
So it it may not always defer.
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:20.719
I guess uh what I'm feeling like in a in a state where we've in Iowa in particular where data center and large customer load growth is you know doubling the size of the utility in the next five years.
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:24.400
I'm not sure we're gonna be deferring a lot, but we're part of the plan.
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:34.639
We're part of that resource plan that that we're delivering the power not only for the new customers, but keeping reliable power for all customers, you know, going forward.
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:36.960
So definitely the mission to CEREBOL.
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:38.480
We might not get to defer though.
00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:39.840
Yeah, that makes sense.
00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:40.559
Totally.
00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:43.280
We are running out of time on the factor of this policy cast.
00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:47.119
In fact, it looks like uh Bart over at uh Sunrun had a flight to catch.
00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:50.159
That airport he was hanging out in has has taken him back in.
00:46:50.239 --> 00:46:52.000
So he has departed from the program.
00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:56.800
But those of you who have remained, Max, Carrie, and Emma, I'd love to end with some final thoughts.
00:46:56.960 --> 00:47:02.800
Something we either didn't get to in this conversation about scaling DERs or something that you feel like really needs to be hammered home.
00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:04.159
Max, let's start with you.
00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:12.480
I I guess I would just close with uh if there's one action that I would ask, this ask goes out to regulators.
00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:34.079
So I'm glad Emma is here because I know the tireless work she does on behalf of educating and enabling regulators to think about grid flexibility and virtual power plants, it would be uh establish a capacity accreditology for VPPs and let utilities earn on flexibility the way they earn on other investments.
00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:37.440
Everything else, I think, is downstream from that.
00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:47.840
If they we're asking utilities to invest in flexibility without offering the same opportunity they get from the other investments they make.
00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:57.119
And accredition makes flexibility count in their IRPs, an earning treatment that makes it rational to pursue this flexibility at scale.
00:47:57.280 --> 00:48:05.599
And if we don't do those two things, we're asking them to substitute a resource that they can't fully count on for a resource that they get paid to build.
00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:10.480
And then we act surprised when adoption isn't isn't rapid.
00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:21.280
So Carrie and Bart and others have talked about kind of the demand growth and what that's gonna do and how that is gonna necessitate investment in flexibility in VPPs.
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:40.960
But I would just share that there are other things that regulators can do, especially an accreditology and earnings for utilities that will unlock this flexibility in a meaningful way and really put this on par in a certain extent for as a planning resource and a capacity resource with the other things that utilities are currently earning on to build.
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:42.320
Yes, please.
00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:44.400
Carrie's got her hand out.
00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:45.360
She's like, Yeah, sure.
00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:46.719
That's that's awesome.
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:48.639
Yes, we would like that.
00:48:48.880 --> 00:48:54.800
Um I think I would I would leave folks with a reminder of you can build a great program.
00:48:55.039 --> 00:49:02.800
You can maybe uh earn on it eventually if if Emma can convinces all the regulators to head that direction.
00:49:03.039 --> 00:49:07.920
Um But it it it still is gonna begin and end with the customers.
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:20.960
So you have to be able to figure out how do you maintain choice, convenience, control with the customers so that they're it's easy to enroll, it's easy to participate, it doesn't impact their life.
00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:25.440
And and maybe the financial incentive is what's bringing them in.
00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:30.239
But I think as as Bart said earlier, people also want to participate and contribute.
00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:38.400
And we are and we are hearing that as well and when we're surveying customers about why they're enrolled in the programs or why they stay in and participate.
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:42.079
So I think it's the customers are at the heart of making this all work.
00:49:42.320 --> 00:49:48.719
It would be great also if it was, you know, made other financial sense for the utility, but customers at the heart.
00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:57.599
I won't belabor the point too much because I think I opened with this, but you know, my parting thought is we're really we are out of the pilot stage for so many of these things.
00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:02.079
We're no longer trying to convince people that these programs work and they should trust the model.
00:50:02.239 --> 00:50:05.280
Um, I think it's about how big can we go and how quickly.
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:07.679
Um, I also think location is super important.
00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:10.960
We want to make sure that people, you know, my viewpoint is coming from Wisconsin.
00:50:11.119 --> 00:50:22.000
I want to make sure that everyone across the state of Wisconsin has the opportunity to participate in a program like this and access these grid benefits rather than just kind of utility by utility.
00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:24.000
Um, so I think that will be really important.
00:50:24.159 --> 00:50:26.719
But um, really appreciate this conversation today.
00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:30.559
Yeah, I think it was really insightful, especially the customer side stuff.
00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:38.480
You know, you don't think too much about what it takes to bring a customer along into these programs, much less what happens when you lose one or you upset one.
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:50.079
And I think you guys did an excellent job of shining a little light into those crevices about customer adoption and customer retention and how we get the most out of these resources and and and ultimately be able to count on them.
00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:52.800
Um I'm sure this conversation will continue.
00:50:52.960 --> 00:51:12.960
I want to thank each one of you, including Bart from Sunrun, no longer in your picture, but but Max uh over at Energy Hub and Carrie with Alliant and uh Emma at Advanced Energy United for joining us on the Factor This Policy Cast to have this conversation, an extension, as we mentioned at the top of the show, of one that began at one of our DTEC events, Reliability and Resiliency in Chicago, Illinois.
00:51:13.119 --> 00:51:15.519
Thanks to each of you for going out and checking out Chicago.
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:18.079
I'm sure that was lovely in late August as well.
00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:25.679
Um anyway, keep in mind we continue this conversation, the policy cast one, uh, every other Thursday here on Factor This.
00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:30.320
So there'll be another episode that comes out exactly two weeks after this one uh goes live.
00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:34.239
And uh, as I mentioned, uh future episode about that DSGS program.
00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:40.320
So if virtual power plants and distributed resources are your cup of tea, I'm warming up another one on the kettle for you.
00:51:40.480 --> 00:51:45.119
But until then, uh please like, subscribe, live a little feedback if you enjoyed the program.
00:51:45.199 --> 00:51:47.519
And until next time, uh be good, people.
00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:06.719
We are out of the pilot stage for so many of these things.
00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:11.199
We're no longer trying to convince people that these programs work and they should trust the model.
00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:15.039
I think it's about how big can we go and how quickly.
00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:35.039
Utilities and grid operators face immense pressure to meet rising electricity demand, harden their systems against extreme weather, upgrade and replace aging infrastructure, adapt to changing state and federal policies, and keep rates affordable all at once.
00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:44.479
It's a bit of a juggling act, and with all those balls in the air, the old school utility methods of building more supply-side solutions just don't really cut it anymore.
00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:54.960
As a result, distributed energy resources, DERs, or customer-sided technologies are moving beyond the margins of reliability planning to the center of attention.
00:00:55.200 --> 00:01:14.480
This episode of the Factor This Policycast, presented as always in partnership with National Business Association Advanced Energy United, explores how mostly behind-the-meter tools like batteries, smart thermostats, backup generators, microgrids, rooftop solar, and flexible load can be aggregated and operated as dependable grid assets.
00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:31.359
In an extension of a conversation that began at DTEC Reliability and Resiliency 2026 in Chicago, Illinois, I'll lead a discussion alongside Emma Hines, policy principal at Advanced Energy United, about what it takes to scale virtual power plants and other DER programs.
00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:40.719
The conversation, featuring Bart Jackson of Sunrun, Energy Hub's Maxwell Burke Skull, and Carrie Gurkey at Alliant Energy, yeah, it's the same last name as me.
00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:56.319
She spells it differently, though, will highlight practical lessons from states and utilities moving past pilots to full-scale implementation, focusing on how DERs can improve reliability, reduce peak demand, support resilience during emergencies, and lower customer costs.
00:01:56.560 --> 00:02:07.840
Also on the table in this conversation, utility partnerships, market design, customer enrollment, dispatch performance, interconnection, data visibility, compensation, a partridge, and a pear tree.
00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:08.879
Enough from me.
00:02:09.039 --> 00:02:13.439
If you don't know the voice and face by now, I'm Paul Gurky, content director over at Factor This.
00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:16.400
But I'm sure you'd like to get to know the other names in your program.
00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:20.639
We'll start on the Advanced Energy United side with Emma over at uh United.
00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:26.159
Emma, tell the people here today uh a little bit more about yourself and the relevance you bring to the topic at hand.
00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:27.439
Yeah, thanks, Paul.
00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:28.960
So my name is Emma Hines.
00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:32.479
I am the Wisconsin policy principal with Advanced Energy United.
00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:35.919
So I lead our state work um here in Wisconsin.
00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:40.800
So I am very excited to be talking about um scaling DER pilots.
00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:44.719
Um Wisconsin is definitely a market where we have some room to grow.
00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:46.479
So I'm excited to chat with you all today.
00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:48.240
All right, Max, let's get you in next.
00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:49.280
You've got the most names.
00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:52.000
So I feel like you it would make sense if you went next.
00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:53.759
Yeah, definitely the longest name.
00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:54.479
I appreciate that.
00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:55.360
Thanks, Paul.
00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:57.360
Um my name is Max Burkskohl.
00:02:57.439 --> 00:03:01.919
I'm the director of client success for the Midwest and Northeast for Energy Hub.
00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:10.159
Um, Energy Hub is a platform that utilities utilize to uh orchestrate uh their flexibility of their customer-sided devices.
00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:19.199
We integrate with about 80 plus different OEMs across batteries, commercial industrial, thermostats, uh, EVs, pool pumps, water heaters.
00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:24.960
On the utility side, we integrate with utility systems with their CIS, grid derms, market interfaces, and billing.
00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:36.319
That's about 230 utilities, 300 plus flexibility programs, 2.6 million devices under management, and about three and a half gigawatts of flexible load capacity across 30 states and Canada.
00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:39.120
Hey, Bart, uh, why don't you introduce yourself next?
00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:40.639
Uh thanks, Paul.
00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:41.280
Thanks, Emma.
00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:42.639
Uh, my name is Bart Jackson.
00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:48.319
I'm with Sunrun, uh, the nation's largest rooftop solar and storage uh installer.
00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:50.719
We uh apologies for the background.
00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:53.439
I am I'm at the airport right now, so I'm very, very grateful.
00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:55.280
The background looks great, Bart.
00:03:55.439 --> 00:03:57.520
It looks like it's curated.
00:03:57.840 --> 00:03:58.080
Yeah.
00:03:58.319 --> 00:03:58.800
Yes.
00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:06.960
Um but yeah, so Sunrun was founded in 2007 uh in California, and today we operate in 22 states across the country.
00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:16.079
We have over a million customers, um, and nearly 270,000 of our customers have battery storage, which is sort of a Swiss Army knife for the grid.
00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:37.920
Um more recently, our most recent quarter, I think 74% of all of our new solar installations are coming with batteries across the country, uh, which is super exciting uh for the conversation we're having today, because um, you know, solar paired with batteries uh can can do a lot for resilience, reliability, and you know, helping people manage their bills.
00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:39.279
So looking forward to this discussion.
00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:40.879
Me too.
00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:45.439
And I'm also looking forward to introducing the last member, certainly not least, of the panel today.
00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:47.759
Carrie, where'd you get that last name?
00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:53.600
Well, I just inherited it, but uh uh weird same.
00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:55.199
Proud to keep the H.
00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:58.319
Uh hi, uh Carrie Gherky with Alliant Energy.
00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:01.120
I'm the senior manager of customer load management.
00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:06.319
Um we have two utilities, uh one in Iowa and one in Wisconsin.
00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:13.519
Um, and our team manages energy efficiency, demand response, and electrification, so right at the heart of a lot of this conversation.
00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:23.759
Um try to have a really full demand stack uh with the VPPs and traditional C and I programs, um, and excited to chat with you all again.
00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:29.439
You guys were so quick with the intros, which I appreciate because this is the most robust policy cast we've ever had.
00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:35.519
We've got a full house here, five total speakers, and I'm a bit of a uh motor mouth, so I'll try to keep my part limited.
00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:41.519
I want to dive right into the topic at hand because when we're talking about DERs, it's a pretty expansive issue.
00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:54.639
We've seen them move from these nice to have reliability resources when we're talking about planning conversations for utilities and grid operators to more of a front burner issue over the last few years.
00:05:54.800 --> 00:06:01.759
And I think a lot of that has to do with the obvious, the electricity demand that we're seeing, the desire to keep rates lower.
00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:11.040
But for the panel, what do you think has changed in the last five years that has really ushered in this era of the DERs that we seem to be starting here?
00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.680
I think it is, you touched on it, it's the load, the load growth.
00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:32.560
Technology was headed this direction, but you know, without the the load growth that's coming on and the need for more flexible load to to balance out the generation stack, um, not sure you would see quite the level that we're experiencing right now.
00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:48.000
Yeah, I think I'll echo Kerry that there is certainly due to reindustrialization, electrification, um, data centers, load growth, extreme weather, there is a there is a rising pull for grid flexibility.
00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:57.279
But I think there's a second part to that answer, which is they the resources themselves got operationally trustworthy.
00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:03.920
And five years ago, 10 years ago, a DR program was a load reduction estimate and then a settlement report.
00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:24.800
And today we are delivering telemetry, forecasting, locational and deterministic forecast, uh, dispatch, and performance measurement and uh a robustness to the data and the fidelity and the latency of the data that really allows a control room and a grid operator to trust in the resource.
00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:25.839
We're also scaling.
00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:33.920
And Bart's going to talk about the wild numbers of battery attachments that that Sunrun has achieved in some of their flexibility programs.
00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:49.040
So there is a point, and in my experience, it's somewhere between like 10 and 15,000 devices enrolled, where it stops being a side of the desk or a customer program or a marketing program and starts being like very impactful at the grid operator level.
00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:54.639
And I think we've achieved that at scale in a number of programs, a number of regions around the country.
00:07:54.720 --> 00:08:08.240
And so that that trustworthiness of the resource is really, I think, the second part of the story, and maybe the part of the story that's overlooked because of the demand that's rising for the first time in two decades.
00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:10.160
But I think it's both.
00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:13.920
Yeah, I would, I would echo that, Max, and thanks for that uh transition.
00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:18.079
I think um our resources are are really fast to deploy.
00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:26.800
You know, I I think um residential does about a gigawatt a year of capacity, so like roughly a nuclear power plant.
00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:37.679
Um, and you know, can traditional power plants of of any variety um take a lot longer to site, plan, build, etc.
00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:42.960
Um, and so so bringing that, you know, the speed to the to the power uh is pretty exciting.
00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:51.440
I I would say about half of our battery fleet is enrolled in some sort of virtual power plant program um across the country, which is super exciting.
00:08:51.600 --> 00:09:00.639
And then this week we actually announced um there's a there's a program in California called the Demand Side Grid Support Program or the DSGS program.
00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:05.120
Um that program has existed for the for the past few years.
00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:11.519
Uh 200,000 batteries are enrolled from a bunch of different um the you know uh companies.
00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:29.039
Um and the the way that the program has been set up is that uh when the wholesale cost of power um goes over$200 a megawatt hour, there's a price trigger that says, uh, you know, we need the batteries, we need the capacity.
00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:32.240
And so that actually happened uh several weeks ago.
00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:36.320
And we're Sunrun was like pleased to be a part of that.
00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:44.639
Um and we dispatched uh collectively uh 580 megawatts over two hours in California during a heat wave.
00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:46.960
Um so we were pretty excited about that announcement.
00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:53.679
Um and it's the first time actually that that$200 price trigger has been hit, um, which is super cool to see.
00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:59.600
Like the program was designed to to you know respond to that price and it and it did.
00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:01.679
Um so we were super excited about that.
00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:11.039
So so yeah, it's it's coming, it's coming from you know, speed to power deploying quickly, and then showing up when it's called upon.
00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:16.159
So so I guess I I would I would argue like we don't need pilots anymore.
00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:21.039
We we we've proven this out, but I know we'll we'll probably get to that further in in the conversation.
00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:23.279
No, I think that's a great point though, Bart.
00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:26.000
I feel like we get stuck in that pilot part of the conversation.
00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:36.399
Like, look at what's possible, and we sometimes lose sight of, especially considering how large the United States is and how diverse those programs can be, that we don't have to wonder what's possible.
00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:38.000
Look at what's actually happening.
00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:40.559
And I'm glad you brought up the DSGS program.
00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:43.120
It's actually something we've had our eye on on this show.
00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:52.159
Stay tuned to the factor of this policy cast for a future edition focused on the DSGS programs and the unique challenges they're facing out there in California.
00:10:52.399 --> 00:11:12.080
Emma, I want to bring you in on the policy side about misconceptions, because I think it's a very natural segue from where we just ended that last thought, and that's that there's this misconception that maybe the technology or the dispatch part of it is not quite where we need it to be to count on this as a reliable grid resource.
00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:18.559
But Bart just told us 500 plus megawatts dispatched over a two-hour period, that's nothing to sneeze at.
00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:29.360
When we're talking to policymakers and regulators about how we handle virtual power plants and in a broader scope DERs, what are those misconceptions that you encounter?
00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:32.000
And I'd love to hear from the the rest of you as well.
00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:38.639
Yeah, I think the biggest misconception is that this is, you know, a brand new program and brand new technologies.
00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:40.399
We don't understand how they act.
00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:44.240
And so we can't count on them as for firm load.
00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:49.519
Um, I think I hear that all the time with you know regulatory staff, with legislators.
00:11:49.600 --> 00:12:05.120
And I think it's so helpful to be able to point to other markets that are a little more developed and say, look at all these member companies we have who are doing these pilots and they are actually, you know, causing a shift in demand and supply capacity during these peak outages or peak periods.
00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:11.360
I think that's the biggest misconception is that, you know, we don't understand how these programs work or how people respond.
00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:17.840
But when you're operating programs this big, people do act more predictably as a large group than you would think.
00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:25.519
Yeah, I think I'd I'd echo the firmness question uh or the the comment that Emma made about the reliability of the resource.
00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:37.919
And there is kind of this uh, I think, misconception that because uh customer choice, and we should we should talk, and I hope we do talk about how important customer choice and agency is.
00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:45.120
Um customer choice means that we, that there is a durating of the firmness of the resource.
00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:57.200
And and to to put a uh kind of a more concrete example on that, well, if the customer can opt out of participating, can I trust that they're gonna show up when I call the event?
00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:16.720
And the answer to that is a resounding yes, because that duration, that um, that customer opt-out behavior is modeled into the tens of thousands of events that Energy Hub and other uh distributed energy resource management system providers like us have done in the market over the past 15 to 20 years.
00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:27.919
So we know what the customer behavior is, and we are factoring that anticipated customer behavior, that customer opt-out, when in the event duration that will happen.
00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:46.240
And we are all factoring that into how we deliver and forecast the um the load reduction, when it'll happen, how stable it will be, and how consistent it will be over the duration of that event, whether it's a one hour, two hour, four-hour event, right?
00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:54.240
We know who is going to opt out and when and how many, because we have done this tens of thousands of times before across large populations of participants.
00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:56.559
So that duration is already factored in.
00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:16.960
So it's no different to me than, and I'm not a power plant operator, not a grid operate plant or a grid operator, but anticipating that there will be some duration of the availability of a generation resource that sometimes plants will go down, or sometimes plants will need maintenance, or sometimes uh generation fleets will need maintenance.
00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:20.399
To me, it's just another engineering problem to solve.
00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:26.559
In this case, it's the participation duration of when will customers opt out.
00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:27.279
And we know it.
00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:38.000
So we can tell you how firm and we can forecast very clearly when the resource will show up, what the capacity of that resource will be, and how long that resource will be available.
00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:43.360
And it's proven out through tens of thousands of events that we've run over the past 15 or 20 years.
00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:54.879
I think there's a second piece that's not about the recognition or duration of the resource, which is um there is not yet a standardized planning grade regular recognized resource classification for DER.
00:14:55.200 --> 00:15:10.960
So uh what I mean by that is that uh it would be wonderful for the role of these resources if there was a broadly agreed upon capacity accreditation methodology and even uh measurement and verification M and V approaches.
00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:19.919
Um, and similarly, uh consistent cost recovery for flexibility the way there is for concrete and steel.
00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:20.480
Right.
00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:41.840
And so until a planner at a utility can put flexibility on the same page as a peaker plant investment with comparable uh credation and comparable earnings treatment, we're asking flexibility resources, which Bart and I have already talked about how they show up, and and Carrie will probably talk about how they show up for the utilities.
00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:58.960
We're we're asking them to compete with generation investments with one hand tied, not because it's performs any differently or performs worse, but because it there's no standard way to count and value it across different utilities and across different regulatory jurisdictions.
00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:29.759
Yeah, I think it starts with balance, just sort of peeling off of that of thinking about the generation or the supply stack and how you can balance it with your demand stack and where it it fits in either price-wise or you know what the capacity is available or number of hours you're able, you know, to run based on the the technology that you're calling on for the customer, a battery, a generator, a thermostat, they're all going to have you know some different um impacts that they're able to bring forward.
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:39.840
So, but I do think it is just about how it layers in, and that's how we're really thinking about it from a resource planning perspective of bidding it into that overall stack.
00:16:39.919 --> 00:17:02.399
And then I think you probably have a third stack of the customer-owned generation, you know, where the where the solar and the and the batteries that are not deploying as part of a demand response or load flexibility event, but the customer is deploying them for their own uses, how those all fit together under one single pane of glass is something that it you know will make an impact going forward.
00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:35.839
If I could jump back to something Emma said about you know regulatory, I think that is something we are working on as well, bringing the regulators along from something they know very well to how do we evaluate a standard generation plant or even renewables now, but to how do they evaluate and when can you bring forward the new projects and and because it can deploy quickly does not mean the regulatory process happens as fast as you might be able to deploy them.
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:59.680
So I think that's just another hurdle that we're that we're working on to be able to help the regulators and the stakeholders in the jurisdictions understand how it works so that we can move the regulatory process faster so that it can be deployed and scaled up more quickly instead of taking 12 or 18 months to get approval on moving forward with the program.
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:02.880
Yeah, I would just I would just add, you know, it's very exciting.
00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:14.880
And I and I just kind of always go back to how grid operators, you know, in their infancy with utility scale solar, utility scale wind, like how are we going to predict when the wind is blowing and the sun is shining?
00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:26.160
And like so I think we are still as DERs like in that early stage where folks are just trying to figure out um, you know, like how to rely on these resources and stuff.
00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.079
So, you know, and there is a little inertia involved.
00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:38.640
And so like I think it's our job um to to keep telling the story about about how these resources are are effective and and and show up when when called upon.
00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:48.000
Um one just misconception piece, you know, like uh is it cost effective, is is for ratepayers, for customers, all of that.
00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:52.000
Uh there's the Connected Solutions program on the East Coast and in Connecticut.
00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:59.200
I think I think the uh the the payment for performance is around$300 uh per KWH.
00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:11.680
And the the ratepayer impact score for that um is nearly or almost two, meaning that it the return on the on the cost um pencils quite nicely.
00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:24.400
So, you know, just just one example, but I think to Max's point, having having some sort of standard across the country would be quite helpful, um, you know, so that so that folks are singing from the same song sheet for sure.
00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:25.599
Yeah, it's a good point.
00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:33.920
And Max mentioned that, and we'll get into this again in just a second, but how customers really ultimately determine whether or not these programs are successful.
00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:39.200
I want to talk about what is successful in these programs, what actually works.
00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:49.200
You know, we mentioned a minute ago, maybe it's time to move past the word pilot, but in those pilots, we learn things that then make it into full-scale implementation.
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:51.119
What are some of those lessons, Bart?
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:55.279
I know you've been involved in a lot of them uh with Sunrun, so maybe we'll start with you on this one.
00:19:55.359 --> 00:20:00.960
What are what's one of those takeaways from a pilot that you're like, oh yeah, that's how we should be doing things from now on?
00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:13.200
Yeah, I would answer this by looking at the um, you know, smart thermostats, smart devices, hot water heaters, um, and then and then batteries.
00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:20.640
In in the perfect world with a battery that's discharging back to the grid during times of big demand, like you don't know that that's happening.
00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:22.559
You can't feel it in your house.
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.519
You're not setting your temperature higher, et cetera.
00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:37.440
Um, I I would say in different markets, we've made different choices on how much of that battery capacity remains in each battery during those discharge events.
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:52.319
So in most places, and the customers can choose, you know, if if you know the Tesla Powerwall has like storm mode, so you can, you know, say I want 100% of my battery, don't want it to participate in an event because XYZ reason.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:21:01.279
Um but typically we we leave about a 20% reserve to to have so that our customers can have the resilience benefit of the battery.
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:06.240
Um, I would say in Puerto Rico, uh we leave a 70% reserve.
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:16.880
And so because the grid is so much less reliable there, that is something that we've learned um is what our customers want um to be able to have backup.
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:38.240
But also, you know, we get a lot of feedback from from customers about like, I'm really excited that this can help the grid stay online, you know, and and that is like people feel like they're actually part of the solution, um, which I don't know if we like thought about when we were designing these things, but like the the people are really excited to participate.
00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:46.240
Bart hit on a good note of saying, you know, we want it to be the least impact to the customer's daily life while participating.
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:54.319
So, you know, you're looking at event duration, the number of times you call it per year, what are the triggers that you're calling it for?
00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:59.759
How do you stack the different devices so that you can extend the event while not calling on one?
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:03.839
Customer device, you know, for a whole event period.
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:20.240
I think those are are really important and have been critical to increasing customer satisfaction and decreasing the customer opt-outs so that model can really work and be delivering the per device shift that you're that you're targeting.
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:26.960
The other thing I think starts even before that and is just making it really easy for a customer to enter a program.
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:34.319
We want to say what's the least number of clicks that we can deliver a message to a customer that gets them enrolled.
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:42.720
We tested out a campaign this year where we had an opt-in to a behavioral program with a one-click enrollment.
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:47.680
So a personalized email that was authenticated.
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:53.519
So they literally could just have one press inside the email and they're enrolled in a program.
00:22:53.599 --> 00:23:02.559
They didn't have to go to a website and go four clicks deep to find the program they wanted and then verify their identity and then click enroll.
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:15.680
So I think that ease of enrolling is step one to getting more customers involved and then making it easy while they're in to stay enrolled and not opt out in programs.
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:16.319
Yeah.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:27.200
I I will personally attest to uh the the ease of both enrolling and staying in um Carrie's Alliant Energy Smart Hours program.
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:32.480
Um it's not a program we run, but it is a program that I participate in as an Alliant customer.
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:37.440
Um and we are kind of at the tail end of the cooling season here in Wisconsin.
00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:40.000
It was 45 degrees last night.
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:46.160
Um, but reflecting on our experience for my household um over the summer, right?
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:51.599
Like we didn't notice that events were happening until I checked my email and saw, like, oh, an event had happened, right?
00:23:51.759 --> 00:24:07.839
And so when you think about the the customer experience layer of how this interacts with the the flexibility and capacity for the grid, um, the example that I like to call out is thinking about uh EV drivers.
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:18.720
And in Energy Hub's experience of uh implementing managed charging programs, right, there was an we indexed on early on in flawless program design.
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:24.400
How do we get the most flexibility per EV that's plugged in when we need it, where we need it on the grid?
00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:25.200
Right.
00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:43.759
What happens though is if you have one bad experience as an EV driver, if you have one morning where you wake up or one one early morning when you need to be somewhere and your EV is not at the state of charge that you expect it to be and need it at to be, the program doesn't lose that event capacity.
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:49.039
The program loses that capacity of that customer forever, right?
00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:58.880
So we build our active managed charging programs around the hard constraint that a vehicle hits its target state of charge before the departure.
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:01.359
And the driver can override at any time.
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:03.680
There's no penalty, there's no friction.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:14.880
And those are concessions to customer experience that are made for the grid objective, but they are also an investment in maintaining the scale and building the scale of the capacity for the resource.
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:20.160
Because if you make the customer experience poor, you won't have the program.
00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:22.400
You won't have the resource when you need it.
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:33.680
And so um, those are the kinds of lessons that are that are meaningfully learned in pilots and program design that have to be informed as we continue to grow and scale flexibility programs.
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:42.160
And I think, you know, not only do you get rid of that customer forever, you probably lose that customer and their five closest friends.
00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:45.119
Like that's an experience that someone would probably talk about.
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:54.000
And then you have that kind of mental picture of, oh, I don't want to, you know, participate in that program because Joe, you know, couldn't drive to the airport at four in the morning.
00:25:54.079 --> 00:25:56.319
So that customer experience part is really important.
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:06.960
Another thing we've learned from pilots is uh we would love to be able to enroll all of our customers in a given grid services program at point of sale.
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:15.599
Um but because you know, we're I think we're in 22 plus grid services programs across the country, maybe 25.
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:22.480
Um there are some places where we install customers that don't yet have an existing grid services program.
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:30.480
And so we have worked on updating our customer contracts to allow for future participation uh in those events.
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:37.759
And so that's something that we've learned through through the pilot, you know, process is point-of-sale enrollment is much smoother and cleaner.
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:45.440
Bart, a colleague of yours over uh uh at Sunrun once told me something that stuck with me through the years that customers don't care about virtual power plants.
00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:47.759
They care about warm showers and cold beer.
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:52.000
And I think that that speaks to the larger narrative that you all just sort of described.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:58.079
You all got into some really rich customer behaviors and techniques we can use to drive longer-term participation.
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:05.599
Is there anything we left on the table there, learnings about the customer experience and ways that we can make these virtual power plants more streamlined and effective?
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:39.279
Maybe just as evidenced by the panel today, I think it's it's made for new partnerships in places where maybe utilities may have been in conflict um with some of the vendors or competition, a particular thinking about solar, but it's it's really brought new partnerships forward where we can collaborate and work together to um help harness that customer flexible load, um, particularly at the residential level, but across all customer classes that maybe we didn't do as good of a job in the past.
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:54.480
Um, but being able to work with the the different vendor partners and OEMs is really key because the utilities aren't able, you know, to to manage and install devices in all of the places where we might want them or customers might be interested in them.
00:27:54.640 --> 00:28:00.720
So it's really brought forward a new level of partnerships as well that has helped move the needle.
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:17.839
Yeah, I would just I would just add, um, I think a learning is the except for the people having this conversation, most customers are not like deep in energy worlds and like tracking, okay, like how much does my fridge use, how much does my dryer use?
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:19.519
Um and that's okay.
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:24.079
And like we like we don't need everyone to become an energy expert.
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:31.039
Um, we just you know, the to quote my former colleague um or maybe current colleague, I don't know.
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:33.680
Is it is it is Chris Rouscher still with Sunrun?
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:34.960
He he recently left.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:35.200
Yes.
00:28:35.599 --> 00:28:35.920
I'm sorry.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:37.839
I'm glad I'm glad you brought that up then.
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:39.920
Shout out to Chris wherever you're at these days.
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:40.720
That was a great line.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:42.319
I'm still using it three years later.
00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:46.480
Yeah, no, I I love it, and it's a sentiment that I completely agree with.
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:48.960
Is it's we want these things to work.
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:53.359
Um and and so we want it to be seamless.
00:28:53.519 --> 00:29:01.920
The the other sort of learning we've had is you know, in the electrification journey, um going solar and storage is often sort of a gateway drug, right?
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:05.920
It's like, okay, I got my solar and storage, and like now can I electrify my stove?
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:07.680
Now can what about my hot water heater?
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:15.440
You know, and so that that's great and that's wonderful, but but I I think most customers are not the energy nerds and like thinking about this stuff all the time.
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:16.640
And that's that's totally fine.
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:28.480
I'll use some data that Energy Hub has collected to kind of build from that point that you're making, Bart, about who who how do people, the lay person, think about these programs if they think about them at all.
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:44.240
So um I run a portfolio of programs in the Northeast where the statewide program has been operating for 20 years and they have a very robust brand presence and marketing budget to promote that state program.
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:54.640
Um we ran a survey in 2025 to see how do the the lay participants and non-participants think about that program.
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:59.839
And 60% had never recalled seeing or receiving any marketing from that program.
00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:02.720
So they don't know it exists.
00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:19.440
And it's not they considered it and they declined it, it's that they're genuinely aware and knowing from being in this industry about 15 years, uh, how different utilities in different states are allowed to spend on marketing, that it is, if not the richest marketing budget in the country, in the certainly in the top five, right?
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:25.599
For how much has been spent building the brand, making people aware of it, promoting the opportunity to participate, right?
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:29.839
And still 60% of survivor respondents haven't heard about it.
00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:36.960
So Carrie brought up the answer a few minutes ago, which is what do you do if the layperson hasn't heard of these programs?
00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:39.200
It and how do you build their awareness?
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:42.079
We push enrollment to the point of device purchase.
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:43.680
So point of sale, as Bart mentioned.
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:46.240
We push enrollment into the OEM's own app.
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:56.480
So when I installed the EcoBee in my new house in 2023, in my startup experience, it drove me to signing up for the Alliant program, right?
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:05.599
And so expecting customers to look for and think about a utility program first is kind of backwards.
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:14.880
You need them, you need to meet them where they are, and that is they're buying the new thermostat, they're interested in solar storage, or they're excited about their new EV, or they've just installed a new water heater.
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:17.680
And that's where you're going to capture the customer enrollment.
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:25.359
And I think, I think that's generally known in the industry of both uh platform providers as well as OEMs and utilities.
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:36.400
But it is really critical that even after 20 years of these programs running at scale and investing in their brand awareness and marketing, the best place to capture a customer is upfront with their device.
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:38.079
That's a great point, Max.
00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:49.200
And I want to bring Emma back into this from a policy perspective again, because I think that's a really natural transition to how do we ensure accessibility when we're talking about these programs?
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:55.359
It's not everybody is going to be up at the counter at point of sale buying their new home battery energy storage system.
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:57.440
Those things are not exactly inexpensive.
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:03.759
So, how do renters, how do low-income households, how do those without a rooftop to install solar get in on this action?
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:07.680
Uh, Emma, let's start with you and I'm sure the others have some thoughts on this as well.
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:08.880
Yeah, absolutely.
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:11.200
I'm definitely interested in hearing what others have to say.
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:14.880
But I think, you know, a really important point would be making it multi-technology.
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:20.000
Um, it's a lot easier to buy a Google Nest thermostat than it is to install a battery in your home.
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:27.920
Um, and you know, some of these smaller technologies, they still provide really important capacity and they provide a really important benefit to the person who's using it.
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:34.000
Like I know so many people who have bought a smart water heater or a smart thermostat because they want to be able to adjust it from their phone.
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:36.880
Um, you know, they have no idea of what a virtual power plant is.
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:40.240
They have no idea anything about grid services, but it's a benefit to them.
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:47.759
So we can use that motivation of wanting to just upgrade something in their own home or their apartment and kind of bring it into this new program.
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:56.480
So that's what sticks out to me at this point is just making sure that the kind of the full suite of technologies are able to participate in these programs.
00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:01.759
I'm gonna take it a step farther and say it can be no technologies.
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:02.480
There you go.
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:27.119
And if you're thinking of behavioral programs, we've I I mentioned the the one-click enrollment in a behavioral demand response, but we also launched uh this summer in Wisconsin an opt-out version where we uh automatically enrolled 279,000 customers in what we call peak time rewards, but it's the all carrot, no stick, no device behavioral program.
00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:39.759
So we send you the message, um, email or text, you tell us how you want to be communicated with, and then you reduce your usage during that event time period however you want to or however you can.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:49.680
You can shift when you do a load of laundry, you can shift when you wash the dishes, or you can adjust your thermostat or change when you charge your EV.
00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:54.640
And we're seeing great participation and good loadshed from customers who have those devices.
00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:00.160
But I think it also goes down to just no technology required to be in a VPP program.
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:02.240
Behavioral also works great.
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:11.599
I just have to put a pin in this, Carrie, because we're on a streak on the factor this policy cast of coming up with excellent t-shirt slogans for the clean energy industry.
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:20.559
And I gotta say, all carrot no stick with on one side and the other that says no technology needed, that's not gonna sell.
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.119
I'm just saying these are great ideas.
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:26.079
This is great branding from a group of experts, clearly.
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:28.800
Shoot, I there's a registered trademark on that.
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:29.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:31.360
No, it's no, it belongs to the show now.
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:33.119
Sorry, I think that's how it works.
00:34:33.679 --> 00:34:34.960
Max, what do you think?
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:52.960
Yeah, I think I want to challenge the assumption that um that while participation equity matters, um, there are, as Carrie and Emma have already called out, pathways to participation for low and moderate income participants.
00:34:53.440 --> 00:35:10.559
But what I think I want to make clear is that while technologies like battery storage and rooftop solar are ownership gated, the system benefits uh in affordability and resiliency and reliability to all ratepayers are not gated.
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:27.840
So just because my house doesn't have uh, or you know, I don't I don't have a battery on my home doesn't mean I wouldn't bat benefit from a system perspective of a scale battery uh virtual power plant or grid flexibility program in in the jurisdiction that I live in, right?
00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:40.960
These large benefits are delivering for all ratepayers on an affordability level, on a flexibility level, and on a resiliency level, regardless of whether or not an individual rate payer is participating.
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:58.079
So, well, I do think like it's an important lens for us to apply to these programs is how do we make sure that there are pathways through participation for all types of ratepayers, whether they're small business or residential or low or moderate income, multifamily, um, and there are pathways for them to participate.
00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:13.199
The biggest benefit for everyone with a meter attached is the benefit derived to the system and not having to pay for upgrades or deferring upgrades for five or six years, or not not having to add new generation and having to invest in that generation.
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:22.159
So it's using the electrons we already have more carefully and thoughtfully and more orchestration, deliver system benefits for everyone.
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:44.400
So it's kind of twisting your question a little bit, and maybe that's not the answer you're expecting, but I think it's an important way that we advocate for the values that these grid flexibility programs derive for ratepayers, especially given all the pressure we're facing right now around affordability and the concerns kind of in the national conversation around it, that you don't need to have a smart thermostat enrolled in one of these programs.
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:51.039
You don't need to have an EV to still see the benefit from a systems perspective as an individual ratepayer.
00:36:51.280 --> 00:37:12.639
I was just gonna say I'm really glad that you brought that up because that's a conversation I've had a couple of times this year, um, either with regulators or legislators or even just candidates that are running for office right now, is there's a pretty direct financial benefit to keeping the grid online if you're a lower moderate income customer, even if you don't have anything because it costs money to replace medication that needs to be refrigerated.
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:18.000
If your fridge is offline because there's a power outage, um that's a pretty direct financial benefit.
00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:25.920
If your freezer isn't cold anymore and you have to throw away all the Costco chicken breasts that you had stored in there, like that's a that's a savings for you.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:34.400
It might not come in the same form as a gift card from your utility or a bill credit or whatever the payment mechanism is, but that's pretty easy for a lot of ratepayers to quantify.
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:46.159
And it circles back to what Bart led us off with about the ratepayer impact test, demand response programs all pass that test, the economic test very, very well.
00:37:46.400 --> 00:38:01.039
And and not only the real impacts of my I didn't lose my refrigerator and the things that are in it, but it does have the the impact of holding down rates and or delaying future cases potentially.
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:03.920
So yeah, all DR is good DR.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:07.039
It's cost effective, it's worthwhile, we need to be doing it.
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:09.280
Let's fast forward a few years.
00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:22.800
We're looking into the future, and for whatever reason, the factor of this policy cast still exists, and I'm still in this chair in this lovely little home office, and I've wrangled this group together again to talk about how we're gonna scale DERs to the next level.
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:24.639
How did we get there?
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:31.760
What decisions did we make as utilities, regulators, technology providers, policymakers to accelerate a transition?
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:40.639
And if it doesn't accelerate and we somehow come up short and DERs are never fully realized the ways that you just mentioned, what did we step in?
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:42.159
What mistakes did we make?
00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:44.239
Let's look into our crystal balls and figure it out.
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:46.320
I'll I'll take the bravest one of you first.
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:54.000
Well, I think we're gonna have to see a consolidation under the edge germs, as Max was mentioning earlier.
00:38:54.159 --> 00:38:58.719
Uh I think people have utilities have started a lot of different programs under different platforms.
00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:22.480
I think that growing success is gonna be consolidation under one platform where you can, as Max said, orchestrate all of your DERs together in in one platform and you make it uh simple for your grid operators or you can make it simple for your energy markets team to be able to look at when should these resources be deployed, when does it make sense for grid support?
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:34.480
When do the economics hit that you know it's your least cost option to be able to be deploying these customer resources rather than um you know buying additional energy on the grid when prices are high.
00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:45.599
So I think that orchestration under that single pane of glass with with one edge germs provider is really going to be crucial and where we will be at in the future, I think.
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:47.119
Yeah, I love that, Carrie.
00:39:47.199 --> 00:40:18.320
And I'll I'll take it even up one level from there because uh we are orchestrating uh if you if you look at some of our Northeast portfolios where we uh and programs where when we look at peak peak behavior uh for the summer, we're dispatching commercial industrial resources, we're dispatching uh background capacity, we're dispatching um batteries, EV managed chargings, and thermostats, and we're structuring those dispatch strategies in a way to deliver for whatever that need may be.
00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:33.840
Is it we need uh we need a four-hour event with a very consistent load shed we dispatch through something called dynamic load shaping, which the idea is that it it staggers the kind of individual tranches or groups or devices to make sure that the load curve is as predictable as possible for over four hours.
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:48.559
It could be that we we know when that system peak is going to hit, and we need to have the biggest economic impact we can for that hour, in which case we're gonna have a slightly different orchestration in that single pane of glass, right, of our edge derms of the devices.
00:40:48.800 --> 00:41:04.239
But taking it up a level in where we want to be in five years, you'll hear Energy Hub talk about our virtual power plant maturity kind of context, which is how do we evolve this to be comparable to and functioning as a full grid asset?
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:12.719
And one of one of the things that we are heavily investing in as an industry right now is the connection between grid derms and edge derms.
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:32.000
So that rather than being a um a series of devices that are providing capacity to the grid when called, that capacity is appearing in the same kind of topology and distributed distribution level optimization that the grid operators are using in their control room.
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:42.320
So today, uh I have clients that can dispatch our edge derm aggregations of resources from their gridderm software.
00:41:42.400 --> 00:42:06.719
And I think that's a maturity step that you'll see a lot of utilities take over the next five years is moving the resources that are calling the hitting the button to dispatch, whether it's thermostats or EVs or batteries or all of the above from uh uh directly in the edge derms to their gridderms dispatching into the edge derms that energy hubs provide.
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:19.199
So really excited about connecting that plumbing and really excited to have the first few use cases where gridderms dispatch is actually hitting energy hub enrolled uh resources this summer.
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:31.519
And I think that's one big step forward in bringing this the scale of these resources out of customer programs or out of marketing portfolios or out of DSM portfolios and bringing them into the control room.
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:49.599
Um and we couldn't have done it with all the great work and all the great pilots that utilities like Alliant have done over the years to validate that this is a this is a um consistent, firm resource that you can count on and you can balance where it fits right in your grid management strategy.
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:59.280
So in five years, there's gonna be more grid derms dispatching these types of events than there will be being dispatched in strictly in an edge terms platform.
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:03.440
Max was talking about the plumbing, uh, Emma.
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:05.760
Let's get into the pipeworks of legislation.
00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:11.599
Uh, what can our lawmakers do better to ensure this uh take off of DERs continues?
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:19.840
Yeah, I guess I actually kind of want to jump back to the previous question of, you know, what how does uh what does success look like in five years?
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:25.679
And I really think, you know, I'm coming at this as not an implementer of DER programs or things like that.
00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:31.840
So from more of a 30,000-foot view, but I'm looking at, you know, integrated resource planning processes and stuff.
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:35.920
How are we considering DERs in that portfolio planning?
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:42.159
Is it something that, you know, industry and advocates are having to really fight tooth and nail for and say, no, no, this is firm capacity.
00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:43.280
You should be using it.
00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:49.599
We can get it online faster than like a traditional resource or something that takes longer to cite and permit for.
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:53.440
Um, or is that just kind of a part of the utility modeling?
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:59.679
And they say, okay, we can pull X number of megawatts from DERs and VPPs, and then we'll kind of fill.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.519
Rest with things that take longer to build.
00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:03.920
So to me, that's what that's what success looks like.
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:21.679
The proof for it for me will be, and this is starting to happen, is when planners say that this project that had a name, the XYZ line or the ABC substation upgrade is deferred or canceled because of flexibility.
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:34.159
And we are starting to see as we scale non-wire alternatives and bridge to wire uh projects with some of our clients, we are seeing those named projects, right, that are planned deferred.
00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:37.760
And there's a clear window of for how long they're deferred.
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:50.159
Is we think based on our flexibility resource in this part of our grid, this location, we can defer that upgrade for two to three years and talk about cost efficacy, right?
00:44:50.400 --> 00:45:14.960
When you're able to put off those large-scale capital investment projects, even a couple seasons because of the flexibility resource that you've already enrolled, that's when this is really maturing to a point where you know that you have the trust in the planners, in the regulators, and in the grid operators to say, uh, okay, I don't have to build this thing next year, or I don't have to build this thing in three years, I can build it in five or seven.
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:18.079
And talk about how that flows back to rate payers and value.
00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:18.559
Right.
00:45:18.639 --> 00:45:34.320
And so that in five years, we'll be popping the champagne to celebrate maybe not the the cancellation of those projects, but the deferral of those projects and the defraying of those costs to rate payers over a longer window of time because of grid flexibility scaling and showing up.
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:47.119
I think that works, but only perhaps from the utility perspective, to the extent that the load growth just isn't doesn't overwhelm the what can you defer.
00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:51.440
So if load is growing at the pace that you just need all of the above.
00:45:51.599 --> 00:46:03.920
So you may or be are not deferring a project, but that maybe the size is altered because you're able to bring you know hundreds of megawatts of of the VPP into the planning, as Emma was mentioning.
00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:06.159
It's part of the resource plan, it's there.
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:08.400
So it it may not always defer.
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:20.719
I guess uh what I'm feeling like in a in a state where we've in Iowa in particular where data center and large customer load growth is you know doubling the size of the utility in the next five years.
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:24.400
I'm not sure we're gonna be deferring a lot, but we're part of the plan.
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:34.639
We're part of that resource plan that that we're delivering the power not only for the new customers, but keeping reliable power for all customers, you know, going forward.
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:36.960
So definitely the mission to CEREBOL.
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:38.480
We might not get to defer though.
00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:39.840
Yeah, that makes sense.
00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:40.559
Totally.
00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:43.280
We are running out of time on the factor of this policy cast.
00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:47.119
In fact, it looks like uh Bart over at uh Sunrun had a flight to catch.
00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:50.159
That airport he was hanging out in has has taken him back in.
00:46:50.239 --> 00:46:52.000
So he has departed from the program.
00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:56.800
But those of you who have remained, Max, Carrie, and Emma, I'd love to end with some final thoughts.
00:46:56.960 --> 00:47:02.800
Something we either didn't get to in this conversation about scaling DERs or something that you feel like really needs to be hammered home.
00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:04.159
Max, let's start with you.
00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:12.480
I I guess I would just close with uh if there's one action that I would ask, this ask goes out to regulators.
00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:34.079
So I'm glad Emma is here because I know the tireless work she does on behalf of educating and enabling regulators to think about grid flexibility and virtual power plants, it would be uh establish a capacity accreditology for VPPs and let utilities earn on flexibility the way they earn on other investments.
00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:37.440
Everything else, I think, is downstream from that.
00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:47.840
If they we're asking utilities to invest in flexibility without offering the same opportunity they get from the other investments they make.
00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:57.119
And accredition makes flexibility count in their IRPs, an earning treatment that makes it rational to pursue this flexibility at scale.
00:47:57.280 --> 00:48:05.599
And if we don't do those two things, we're asking them to substitute a resource that they can't fully count on for a resource that they get paid to build.
00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:10.480
And then we act surprised when adoption isn't isn't rapid.
00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:21.280
So Carrie and Bart and others have talked about kind of the demand growth and what that's gonna do and how that is gonna necessitate investment in flexibility in VPPs.
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:40.960
But I would just share that there are other things that regulators can do, especially an accreditology and earnings for utilities that will unlock this flexibility in a meaningful way and really put this on par in a certain extent for as a planning resource and a capacity resource with the other things that utilities are currently earning on to build.
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:42.320
Yes, please.
00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:44.400
Carrie's got her hand out.
00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:45.360
She's like, Yeah, sure.
00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:46.719
That's that's awesome.
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:48.639
Yes, we would like that.
00:48:48.880 --> 00:48:54.800
Um I think I would I would leave folks with a reminder of you can build a great program.
00:48:55.039 --> 00:49:02.800
You can maybe uh earn on it eventually if if Emma can convinces all the regulators to head that direction.
00:49:03.039 --> 00:49:07.920
Um But it it it still is gonna begin and end with the customers.
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:20.960
So you have to be able to figure out how do you maintain choice, convenience, control with the customers so that they're it's easy to enroll, it's easy to participate, it doesn't impact their life.
00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:25.440
And and maybe the financial incentive is what's bringing them in.
00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:30.239
But I think as as Bart said earlier, people also want to participate and contribute.
00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:38.400
And we are and we are hearing that as well and when we're surveying customers about why they're enrolled in the programs or why they stay in and participate.
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:42.079
So I think it's the customers are at the heart of making this all work.
00:49:42.320 --> 00:49:48.719
It would be great also if it was, you know, made other financial sense for the utility, but customers at the heart.
00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:57.599
I won't belabor the point too much because I think I opened with this, but you know, my parting thought is we're really we are out of the pilot stage for so many of these things.
00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:02.079
We're no longer trying to convince people that these programs work and they should trust the model.
00:50:02.239 --> 00:50:05.280
Um, I think it's about how big can we go and how quickly.
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:07.679
Um, I also think location is super important.
00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:10.960
We want to make sure that people, you know, my viewpoint is coming from Wisconsin.
00:50:11.119 --> 00:50:22.000
I want to make sure that everyone across the state of Wisconsin has the opportunity to participate in a program like this and access these grid benefits rather than just kind of utility by utility.
00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:24.000
Um, so I think that will be really important.
00:50:24.159 --> 00:50:26.719
But um, really appreciate this conversation today.
00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:30.559
Yeah, I think it was really insightful, especially the customer side stuff.
00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:38.480
You know, you don't think too much about what it takes to bring a customer along into these programs, much less what happens when you lose one or you upset one.
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:50.079
And I think you guys did an excellent job of shining a little light into those crevices about customer adoption and customer retention and how we get the most out of these resources and and and ultimately be able to count on them.
00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:52.800
Um I'm sure this conversation will continue.
00:50:52.960 --> 00:51:12.960
I want to thank each one of you, including Bart from Sunrun, no longer in your picture, but but Max uh over at Energy Hub and Carrie with Alliant and uh Emma at Advanced Energy United for joining us on the Factor This Policy Cast to have this conversation, an extension, as we mentioned at the top of the show, of one that began at one of our DTEC events, Reliability and Resiliency in Chicago, Illinois.
00:51:13.119 --> 00:51:15.519
Thanks to each of you for going out and checking out Chicago.
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:18.079
I'm sure that was lovely in late August as well.
00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:25.679
Um anyway, keep in mind we continue this conversation, the policy cast one, uh, every other Thursday here on Factor This.
00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:30.320
So there'll be another episode that comes out exactly two weeks after this one uh goes live.
00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:34.239
And uh, as I mentioned, uh future episode about that DSGS program.
00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:40.320
So if virtual power plants and distributed resources are your cup of tea, I'm warming up another one on the kettle for you.
00:51:40.480 --> 00:51:45.119
But until then, uh please like, subscribe, live a little feedback if you enjoyed the program.
00:51:45.199 --> 00:51:47.519
And until next time, uh be good, people.
