When God Does a Full Circle Thing - Brad White

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T.S.
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Eliot uses a phrase that's something like this after we have studied the thing, we will find that we have returned home again for the very first time.
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It's interesting to me those circle type of moments, how God very often brings us into relationships or connections, and we're not sure why, only to find out after we've come back full circle, oh, this was what that was about all the time.
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Most of the time, God is doing something in our lives that if we will give him enough time, if we'll trust him enough, if we'll be patient enough, he will bring us back to a place of understanding, and we'll be able to say, like Paul, I've learned to be content wherever I am, because wherever I am, I'm in the presence of God.
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Well, today's episode is something like that.
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I want to introduce you to a guest that is very much a full circle guest for me.
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I'm going to tell a story after I introduce him that'll kind of make all of that come clear.
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But uh, I want us to talk about how God brings us back around after we've been through some of those wandering places to that home place for the very first time.
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This is Extending Branches.
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My name is Mike Courtney, and we welcome you to the episode when God does a full circle thing.
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Welcome to Extending Branches, a mental health podcast committed to helping people recover hope, find healing, and experience growth.
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Extending Branches is a monthly podcast from Branches, a nonprofit dedicated to compassionate mental and emotional health care rooted in Christ centered values.
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Your host is Dr.
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Mike Courtney, founder of Branches.
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He is an author, speaker, and pastoral counselor who leads honest conversations about faith, emotional health, and real life growth.
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Before we jump in, a quick but important note this podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a replacement for professional counseling.
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If you're struggling with suicidal thoughts or facing a mental health crisis, please reach out to a licensed professional or seek immediate help in your area.
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If you would like to learn more about branches or explore support options, you can visit branches.org.
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We are really glad that you're here.
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Welcome to Extending Branches.
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My guest today is Brad White.
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Brad is the men's minister at New Vision.
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He is also the associate pastor working with a great friend of mine, Brady Cooper.
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New Vision is one of the significant churches in our community, a mega church that impacts our place of residence like no other.
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And I'm excited to have Brad here for all of those reasons, but I'm also excited uh because of our returning back home together and some of the stories that we can share about that.
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So, Brad, welcome.
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This is exciting, Mike.
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Thanks for extending the invite.
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And I gotta be honest, I uh when you when you called me and asked me about this, I was really just looking forward to catching up with you because we have we have had a lot of life together and it's been a little while.
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We have, and you know, we said this earlier.
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We we both, I think, we both talk about each other a lot.
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True.
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I'm referring people over there.
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I send men to the men's things.
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Yeah, we talk about each other a lot.
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We just don't talk to each other as much as we should.
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Yeah, I agree with that, and I'm excited about this.
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It's gonna be fun.
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Hopefully, this will be the first of many.
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Yeah, I agree.
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Well, I, you know, I invite you so I can ask you questions and hear your story.
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But I'm gonna start with a story uh and see if you remember this.
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Uh, my wife and I had moved to Middle Tennessee.
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We had moved to Murfreesboro, and we were looking for churches.
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I'd been a pastor, and so we were we were really not used to going to churches that that I wasn't directing.
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So we're looking for churches, and we went to two or three places.
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And finally we came home and Josh said to me, my oldest son, he said, I would just like to go to church with somebody that I go to school with.
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And I said, Okay, who do you who do you go to school with that you like to go to church with?
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He said, Well, I go to school with a guy named Jared White, and his father is a pastor.
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So I said, Okay, we'll go to church there.
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So we went to your dad's church on a Sunday.
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Great church, great group of people, great pastor.
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Everything was good.
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We're still wondering, I don't know, is this the church we're supposed to be in?
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And uh and Jeff and Diane, your mom and dad, invite us to go out to lunch.
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I have two sons that are almost the same exact age as Pastor Jeff's two sons, Jared and Brad.
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And so we went out to eat, and I looked down at the end of the table, and Jared and Josh were leaning across the table, just talking nonstop to each other.
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And Brad and Jacob were leaning across the table, just talking non-stop to each other.
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And at that moment, Brad, I said, This is the church where we're gonna go.
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And we stayed there almost as long as you did.
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You all left about the time that the that we left.
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So yeah, that was the beginning of uh a really beautiful friendship.
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Yeah, honestly.
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And also, it was also good as a PK when someone new showed up because you knew you were gonna get to go out for lunch.
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And obviously, Dad really liked y'all because typically we were O.
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Charlie's.
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That was kind of the same.
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Oh, yeah.
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No, this was fancy.
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This is part of the city.
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He took you to the Parthenon.
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Yeah, that was I mean, he knew something special was gonna happen, I think.
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Well, we looked far more impressive back then than we do now, so it that wouldn't happen now.
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So you know, I have a memory I'd like to share if that's okay.
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Okay, yeah.
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So I remember Jacob and I, again, fast friends, uh-huh.
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He tells me, Hey, my dad has let me buy paintball guns.
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Uh-huh.
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And as a sixth grade boy, like, this is the most exciting news I've ever heard.
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And he says, We want you to come over and play paintball.
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And so, Pastor Chris, the youth pastor, and myself, we come over and we're gonna play paintball.
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We walk in, and the way that my memory brings it up, you're eating a sandwich, uh-huh, and you had given, and I heard these explicit directions.
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You said to Jacob, do not touch the paintball guns.
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Of course, Jacob being a sixth grade boy, is eager to show me how these things work.
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And he ends up somehow firing the paintball gun.
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It hits your ceiling, and then paint drips on your sandwich.
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Yes, that's pretty vivid in my memory, too.
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And I think, I think to this day, Jacob shudders just a little bit at the mention of paintballs.
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That's a special story.
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That's funny, that's neat.
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Your mom and I, your mom and dad and I became and remained very, very close friends, and we have done things together over the years.
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Uh probably just because of of age difference.
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I haven't kept up with Jared as much, I haven't kept up with you as much, but your mom and dad are still very close to us, still very um important to us.
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And so you're right, that started a family relationship.
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That I hope, in all honesty, I hope that our that our children continue that you have a chance to I hope uh my grandchildren have a chance to shoot paintball guns in your house.
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And I'd rather than not do that.
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That's neat.
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So let's let's pick up from there.
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Yeah thanks for thanks for bringing us back that.
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Let's let's pick up from there.
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God God was at work even then, even with with I I think I think when we started this with third grade kids eating across from each other, and then sixth grade kids at the table, and God was at work even then.
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Where did God take you in that in that journey?
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Did you you're obviously a great pastor now?
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Is that where you were headed?
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Did you know that's what you were gonna do?
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You know, it's it's it's such an interesting story.
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I was uh obviously just ingrained in the church, and I accepted Christ when I was young, and I felt called clearly by God when I was I think I was a sophomore in high school.
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I I felt a a call to vocational ministry all my life, and I think as most 16-year-old boys who kind of feel that prompting, I was like, Well, I guess that means I'm gonna be a a youth pastor.
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Yeah.
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And so yeah, and so I graduated from Riverdale High School and packed up and went to Anderson University with the the plan of becoming a youth pastor.
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And there's a whole lot of circumstances that came together that kind of ended that.
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Um one was I was kind of living in this duality because I was dealing with some addiction, which I think we're gonna get into later.
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And then two was I think I just wasn't uh spiritually mature, maybe even just mature enough in general to sit in some of those pre-seminary classes.
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And so I ended up leaving um Anderson and and came to MTSU and so I decided, well, I guess ministry is not for me.
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Went and got a degree in recreation business, and one thing kind of led to another, and I ended up with the YMCA of Middle Tennessee.
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Yeah.
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I yeah, I remember you working for the YMCA and did a and did a great job and progressed with them.
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Let me let me back up just a step though, and say it, you know, I've seen so many uh preachers' kids who do that, who go to a church school or Christian college, and then kind of maybe have that awareness of I'm not I'm not as spiritually mature as I f as I thought uh was.
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And I wonder if Brad, I wonder if it's sometimes we just assume so much about preacher's kids.
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Well, he's a preacher's kid, he's he's right with God, he you know, he can he knows the Pentateuch, he's right, you know, he we we put so much on them and assume so much, and then they feel obligated to take that on that when all of a sudden they're they're in some place where they're forced to actually live out that faith, it hasn't been their faith at all.
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It's been this kind of ascribed faith from parishioners or even from parents.
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Do you think I agree wholeheartedly?
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I think that there's an expectation on preachers' kids that you're either going to be dealing drugs or you're gonna be the next senior pastor of your father's church that it is in the middle ground.
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Right.
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And so I think that's goes back to part of the one of the reasons that we connected so well with your family because you knew we Jared and I are just kids.
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Yeah.
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We're just kids.
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You didn't put those expectations on us, and we definitely dealt with that.
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I mean, I remember families, there was one family in particular that I remember left the church because me and their son got into a fist fight in the basketball gym, and it was like the preacher's son, you know, got into a fight with my kids, so they they left the church, and that expectation is is definitely real, right?
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And uh, it's something that now having my own kids, I want to be really aware of that that my kids don't sense that because you can you can begin to kind of develop some even disdain for the church in some regards when you're when you grow up in it.
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Yeah, that's good.
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And and it does seem like that maybe that has that's relaxed a little bit.
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Maybe we've learned some of our lessons and don't and don't force that on quite as much.
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So you you you go into the uh parks and recreation field, you're working at the YMCA, doing a great job.
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You were a uh, among other things, you are lifeguard.
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I was, and and that was really where I got my you know kind of start within the YMCA.
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I I had always worked in city aquatics.
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Uh-huh.
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I was finishing my senior year recreation business, and there was a girl that was in one of my classes, and she worked for the YMCA that's in Smyrna, Tennessee, and she said, Hey, we have an opening for our lead aquatics position.
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You should consider uh applying for it.
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And so I did, and to be honest, I didn't think there was any chance they were they were gonna give me this job.
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And so I went in there, I'm cutting up with all the people.
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This one guy in particular, he and I just really hit it off and we're kind of making jokes during the interview.
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Come to find out he was the senior vice president.
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I I had no idea.
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And so he loved me, and so I was very when when they this is true, they called and offered me the job.
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I said, Do you sh you have the right person on the phone?
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This is Brad White.
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I just want to make sure that he said, Absolutely, man, we're excited about you coming in.
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So I came in and and got to kind of jump in and my first real role of major leadership, and I learned a ton and had a great um support staff underneath me, and I had great leadership above me, and I was really grateful for Gary Cobb was his name.
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Gary became a mentor and a and a great friend, and he just poured into me and he kept giving me opportunities to grow.
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And uh eventually there was a tragedy that took place in one of the Ys in Nashville where a young boy drowned.
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And when that young boy drowned, it really changed the trajectory of my career because aquatics became this spotlight.
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They wanted to see who kind of had their ducks in a row, who had been doing the things that we were supposed to be doing.
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And um, there was a small group of us that were doing the right things, and so we switched over companies that were doing the certifications.
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This new company came in and I excelled um in that because of my background in swimming and just being involved in aquatics really my whole life.
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I ended up being hired by that company as well, and so I started teaching all over the country for Disneys and Six Flags and Dollywood and getting to teach at some some pretty big arenas for the aquatics world.
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And at the same time, the COO of the Middle Tennessee YMCAs who was in Nashville, his name is Mike Hellbron.
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He's retired now, amazing guy.
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He, for whatever reason, took me under his wing and he said, Hey, I want to mentor you.
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And so I started being mentored by Mike.
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Eventually, they moved me to the downtown Y and they put me in an operations role where I was essentially the vice principal.
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Uh got to deal with uh all the all the troublemakers in the building and and people who were upset about different things.
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But that was a sweet season because the the guy that was my direct supervisor, Kenny Alonzo, he's now the CEO of Rocket Town, downtown Nashville, Michael W.
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Smith.
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Oh, is that right?
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Yeah, I didn't know that.
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Incredible, incredible man of God, ordained minister.
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And so he and I would talk life, faith, and and leadership.
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And he just poured so much into me.
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And so I was just growing and learning, and really at that point had decided I'm gonna be uh Urban 30 group COO of a YMCA.
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I want to run one of these larger Ys one day.
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And so that was that was kind of where my my story in my mind started to to take a little bit of a shift from a a point where I ended up in the church because I was convinced this this YMCA thing is is where we're going.
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And yeah, long story short, I had some incredible opportunities and um God, through sweet Holly, my wife, made it abundantly clear that I wasn't supposed to take either one of these jobs, and eight months later I ended up at the church.
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Yeah.
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Isn't that neat?
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And we're gonna talk about how you kind of had to start down that path in order to go down this path.
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But so you and Holly were married by that time.
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Yeah, we were we had gotten married in 2008.
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We had an incredible premarital counseling.
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Uh-huh.
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If you remember, you you did our premarital counseling.
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Absolutely.
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I still one of the few that worked, so that's good.
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Yeah, we're doing great.
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Um and and during that season of of getting married, there was this kind of underlying hidden sin of pornography addiction that really plays into the whole story.
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Um, where I was kind of walking in this secret sin, and eventually I came to the place of, man, the Lord just let me feel the conviction from it, and and I wanted freedom from it.
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And um I went forward at church one day and and asked to be prayed over and worked through some deep rooted issues that were that were there that I hadn't dealt with and um began to serve in the church in a different capacity.
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And that was the point I would say I was saved when I was seven, but I would say that my sanctification process started when I was 22.
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Yeah.
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And so I began to just serve the Lord and seek the Lord, and I felt the Lord telling me, hey, something's about to change.
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Right.
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And when these two YMCA jobs came up, I thought, well, this is it, right?
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Because this lines up with everything I've been learning and how I've been almost groomed to take one of these higher level positions.
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And sweet Holly, uh, you know, she's just kind of along for the ride.
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I hadn't really sought her input.
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I'm just like, this is my dream and this is what I want to accomplish, and and you're kind of along for the ride.
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And Pastor Brady called me.
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I was not working for the church, and he said, Listen, I I've heard that you're potentially moving.
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And I said, Yeah, we are.
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He said, I just couldn't let you leave without telling you your name comes up here all the time.
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And I was like, Wow, what is that?
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What does that even mean?
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Is there a job?
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He said, I don't have a job to offer you, I just had to tell you that.
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And so yeah, I got back from that meeting in Holly.
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He said, What did what did Pastor Brady want?
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I said, He just wanted to pray for us.
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I didn't tell her any of the other stuff.
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And so we had gone to North Carolina, had gotten offered the position, went down to Alabama, had been offered the position.
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We're sitting at Bonefish Grill, and I said to her, Where are we going?
00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:32.879
And she looked at me and she started crying and she said, When are you gonna stop fighting the call of ministry on your life?
00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:33.279
Wow.
00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:34.799
And I was like, Ugh.
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:35.120
Yeah.
00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:36.320
Why'd you have to say that?
00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:38.000
You know, like my everything was going so good.
00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:42.559
Because the job in North Carolina came with a house, it came with a car and management of a golf course.
00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:43.679
I was like, this is sweet.
00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:48.320
You know, it's everything that I could have written down on a on a board for kind of my dreams and visions.
00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:54.399
And so something inside of my spirit, probably the Holy Spirit, when she said that, just resonated so deep in me.
00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:55.679
And I knew she was right.
00:16:55.840 --> 00:17:03.279
And I turned both of those jobs down, and then eight months later, uh, just sitting and waiting and waiting on the Lord, I felt abandoned, honestly, by the Lord.
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:05.039
Like you forgot, you forgot about me.
00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:05.359
Yeah.
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:10.400
Um, the church called me and they initially brought me in to run guest services and kind of operational stuff.
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:15.440
So I was helping with safety and security and moving people and some logistical type things.
00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:19.519
And um, so did that for it was about a year and a half, two years.
00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:21.279
We opened our Buchanan campus.
00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:23.680
The men's pastor became the campus pastor.
00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:28.640
Pastor Brady said, Hey, can you just kind of oversee men's ministry, just handle the logistics?
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:34.799
So there was one week that I couldn't find any of the pastors to speak, and he said, Well, I guess I guess you're gonna speak.
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:38.000
I was like, I don't speak, and he said, No, you're going to this week.
00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:42.400
And so I gave that first sermon I ever gave to an empty room 35 times.
00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:43.119
Is that right?
00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:43.680
35 times.
00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.000
I I mean I had it memorized absolutely cold.
00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:55.920
So he called me into his office the next week after the the message, and he said, Hey, I had your message recorded, and I thought, well, this is it, time to pack the bags.
00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:57.039
I'm I'm out of here.
00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:03.759
And he said, You know, I've been watching you work for the past year and a half, and I listened to your message, and he said, I think God's calling you into pastoral ministry.
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:04.559
That's neat.
00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:08.960
And so we began the process of ordination, and from there, uh, I got to go through ordination.
00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:12.799
They invited my dad to come, which was one of the sweetest, one of the sweetest things.
00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:15.359
He was in there when when they uh ordained me.
00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:17.599
Your dad by this time had moved to Kentucky.
00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:19.200
He's pastoring in Kentucky.
00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:24.960
Yeah, he's in Kentucky, and um they they gave me the chance to go and and do some school after that.
00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:29.440
And so um kind of the rest has been just a journey of what does God want to do?
00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:31.440
People ask me often, like, what are you gonna do next?
00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:32.000
What do you want to do?
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:33.440
I'm like, I didn't plan to do this.
00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:38.240
When I was trying to plan my life out, it didn't work out, and so I've given up on making any plans for my future.
00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:41.039
I'm just hanging out, and if God says do this, then I'll do it.
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:41.759
That's neat.
00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:42.400
That's neat.
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.359
Well, you know, I started with that quote that I love from T.
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:45.519
S.
00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:48.880
Elliott about returning home for the very first time.
00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:56.720
And there's so many times in your story that I see you walk into a place and you're and you're home.
00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:57.920
You're finally home.
00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:00.319
It just happens to be the first time you've ever been there.
00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:02.480
And so God was preparing you all along.
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:03.200
That's neat.
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:15.599
It's also neat that he uses, it's important for us to hear, he uses our spouses, most of the time our wives, yeah, to be much more in tune and much smarter than we are.
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:24.400
And there's been lots of times where Doris has either protected me from some really bad decision or pointed me to some really good decision that I had no idea about.
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:25.920
So I agree wholeheartedly with that.
00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:26.640
That's great.
00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:27.039
Yeah.
00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:31.279
So now you serve as men's ministry, associate pastor.
00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:32.720
What do you kind of do?
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:33.920
What's your main role?
00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:36.000
So two main job titles.
00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:39.440
Men's ministry is really overseeing all of our men's groups.
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:41.680
We have 56 different men's groups that meet throughout the week.
00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:48.480
We have a Tuesday group, we have Wednesday mornings at 6 a.m., Wednesday nights at 6 p.m., and then we have some Sunday groups.
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:56.799
So the bulk of my week during the semester is I'm teaching, and then the groups will break off into smaller groups and they'll talk through the text that we're working through.
00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:58.480
And so I just get to love on leaders.
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:00.240
I have a kind of a core leadership group.
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:00.480
Yeah.
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:08.160
I spend my time with them, and then they spend their time with the the direct leaders underneath who spend time with all the men who are in men's ministry.
00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:13.759
So this past year we had uh over 1,100 individual guys come through Ann's ministry at some point.
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:17.680
So it's a really exciting ministry to get to be a part of for sure.
00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:20.880
And I love that core value of challenging men.
00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:30.559
Uh I'm, you know, I'm no, I don't mean to be sexist, no offense to women, but but great churches are only made great if they have great men in them, if they really reach their men.
00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:39.279
And we are so serious about that because what we've seen statistically speaking is that if you are able to uh get the man, the family's gonna follow.
00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:48.240
If a man comes to faith in Christ, I think it's a 97% chance that the rest of the family's gonna fall on that decision, where with the woman it's 73%, and with a child, it's 36%.
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.000
So I think the most important work that we can do is to pursue the heart of men.
00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:52.559
It's hard.
00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:53.759
Yeah, it's challenging.
00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:58.480
Uh with women's ministry, I joke that you could say, hey, we're just gonna gather together and we're gonna sing kumbaya.
00:20:58.880 --> 00:20:58.960
Yeah.
00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:01.599
And you're gonna have a thousand women show up with men's ministry.
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:06.000
I mean, you could have evil can evil come in and do all sorts of stuff, and you're gonna have 12 guys.
00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:06.319
Right.
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:07.920
It's just harder, it's just harder work.
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:09.359
So that's one side of my job.
00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:14.720
The other side of my job is the associate pastor side, which is really just coming alongside Pastor Brady and helping him.
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:17.839
So I oversee the weddings and the funerals that come through the building.
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:20.640
I get to help with a lot of premarital counseling, which I I love that.
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:21.440
It's so much fun.
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:28.240
We have a um a different service that meets at 9:40 called the gathering at 940, and I'm in that service each week.
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:33.039
And then I have the chance to work on our sermon writing team, and so I work on kind of where we're going as a church.
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:39.119
And once a blue moon, probably four or five times a year, I get the chance to speak on Sunday mornings when Pastor Brady and Pastor David are out.
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:41.359
So I love those those opportunities when they come.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.119
That is such a great story, Brad.
00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:48.240
And you know, a lot of it I know, but a lot of it I didn't know.
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:51.839
And so it's fun to kind of hear how God was directing you.
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:59.759
And I do, I don't want to be an I told you so kind of person, but I will say when you were in the when you were in the third, fourth, fifth.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.319
Sixth, seventh grade, and we were watching you grow up.
00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:06.799
We were some of those who stood in the background and said, He's gonna be a minister someday.
00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:08.640
He's gonna he's gonna be in the ministry.
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:13.920
So, so I'm grateful for your time in the YMCA, but we all knew that was not gonna last.
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:15.759
We knew God was taking you someplace else.
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:16.720
So that's neat.
00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:17.839
That's good.
00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:22.079
And and I don't have to tell you this, but what a great church.
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:23.200
I mean, New Vision.
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:27.839
I I uh well, I'm gonna tell a quick little story.
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:39.680
My my parents, my mother and stepfather, my parents divorced, but my mother and stepfather attended that church, and they were little old non-contributing people.
00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:43.680
I mean, they didn't have anything to offer, probably a pain in the neck.
00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:50.480
I you and I both have pastored people that, you know, when you see the little lady walking up on Sunday morning thinking, oh brother, here we go again.
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:51.839
Well, that was my mom.
00:22:52.000 --> 00:23:01.680
But you know, she got sick while she was attending there, and uh her her uh at first Sunday school class and then eventually became life group.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:14.160
She was in the hospital for months, and never a week, many times not a day, would go by that she wasn't connected to the church and and visited and prayed for.
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:17.279
And then I'll never forget the night that she died.
00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:26.720
I'm standing in a parking lot at Baptist Hospital in Nashville, and and Pastor Brady Cooper called me and said, Hey Mike, I just heard your mom died.
00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:28.000
And yeah, I'm so sorry.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:29.119
Want to pray with you.
00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:39.039
And and so I have it for me, it has been the paragon of what good pastoral care should look like from a church.
00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:46.480
And I have I have touted the New Vision story every place I go about what a wonderful job they did of taking care.
00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:48.640
And that was the experience that Holly and I had.
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:52.480
We were kind of planning on doing a little church shopping once we got married.
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:56.400
We went to New Vision the first week and we didn't make it to any other churches on our list.
00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:00.960
We we camped there and we were there for 10 years before I came on staff.
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:06.240
And you know, I had obviously grown up as a PK, thought, what's it gonna be like to get behind the curtain here?
00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:06.559
Right.
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:08.160
And it's made me love the place more.
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:08.480
Yeah.
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:19.039
Because the people are so genuine and authentic, and it's it's a real raw, authentic place where we just want to pursue the heart of God, and and that's what I've seen even more being totally behind the scenes.
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:25.599
Yeah, yeah, that's good, but that's also a sad thing that you would have to have that thought.
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:28.000
Yeah, but we who grew up as preachers' kids, we do.
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:29.200
Okay, this is not the whole story.
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:30.799
That's neat.
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:32.319
So, well, okay.
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:33.680
It's been a great story.
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:40.079
God blessed you and gave you a great career, then made a great minister out of you, and given you a beautiful family.
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:42.160
And so, all right, thanks for coming, Brad.
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:43.039
That's all we have time for.
00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:44.000
I appreciate you being here.
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:45.440
I wish it was that easy.
00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:48.960
Yeah, there's always that other piece in it.
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:49.839
And you know what?
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:55.200
The other piece is not more important, it's not even as important.
00:24:55.839 --> 00:25:00.720
But the other piece, I think, gives context to the beautiful thing that God has done.
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.640
It's somehow made more beautiful when we know the other piece.
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:07.599
So, so tell me a little bit about that.
00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:15.680
Let me back up and say, you you brought up the fact that I uh, by the way, thank you for making me feel so old, but that uh that I did premarital counseling.
00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:17.119
We're coming up on 18 years.
00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:18.319
Wow, by the way.
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:21.359
Uh, and what a privilege do that, what a joy to do that.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:29.279
But I do have kind of this standard thing that I say that I'm look, I'm not gonna get into your sexual behavior, I'm not gonna talk about all this stuff.
00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:35.599
I've got some books you can read, but I am telling you right now, in anticipation of the wedding, stop whatever you're doing.
00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:41.200
Yeah, and and keep yourself pure and clean until the wedding night.
00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.119
I I say that to nearly everybody that I talk to.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:49.759
In your case, when I said that, you had kind of a a different thought.
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:51.200
You kind of gulped in a different way.
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:57.200
Yeah, and I there was the natural gulp of like absolutely Holly and I were, you know, having trouble, you know, keeping our hands off of each other.
00:25:57.359 --> 00:25:57.599
Sure.
00:25:57.759 --> 00:25:59.599
That's that's the the the obvious side.
00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:05.440
But the other side for me was I'm walking in this pornography addiction that Holly doesn't know about.
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:11.839
And I assumed you didn't know, but I thought, oh gosh, the Holy Spirit whispered that to Mike, and now I've been I've been busted.
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:15.680
I mean, this was a thing like I've got to go way back.
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:19.200
Um, I remember the first time I was exposed to pornography, I was in fourth grade.
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:23.359
And and to this day, I can still recall the exact image that I saw.
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:24.160
Isn't that interesting?
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:28.799
You know, a buddy took me up to his his dad's barn loft, and he's like, Hey, have you ever seen this?
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:29.920
And he showed me a Playboy.
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:30.160
Yeah.
00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:32.559
And I remember the way that it made me feel.
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:38.400
I liken it to uh the old video game Mortal Kombat, you know, you had Scorpion and he'd throw the thing out and pull people over.
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:39.440
That's what it did to me.
00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:40.640
Yeah, it grabbed me.
00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:50.400
It was like a grappling hook went into my soul, and I knew it was wrong, I knew it wasn't right, but at the same time, man, it was just like this is so intriguing.
00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:54.720
And this began this process for me of being exposed to pornography.
00:26:54.880 --> 00:27:00.319
My house was locked down like Fort Knox, and my dad was too cheap for us to have good internet, so there was no opportunity there.
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:02.160
We weren't particularly spiritual, we were just poor.
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:08.640
But down the street, man, there was a couple kids that, man, it was just it was just free reign, full access.
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:17.920
And so by the time I was in sixth grade, I mean, I was going to kids' houses, and like that was what we were gonna do was just watch pornography.
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:22.720
And and I don't know how it affected them, but for me, it was something that became an addiction.
00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:37.279
Yeah, and and as I've had some time to grow up and mature and sit back on my story and sit in counseling, I've realized that there's there's one point that's really a catalyst moment where I can point back to and say, man, that was this was definitely a problem, was when I was in eighth grade.
00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:40.799
I was a decent athlete, I wasn't like unbelievable, I was decent.
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:44.640
I started on the middle school basketball team and we had an awards banquet.
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:50.799
And that night we're eagerly anticipating, you know, this process of being given awards.
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:54.480
And I'm thinking, for sure, I'm getting an award because I'm one of the starting five.
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:57.599
And so the first four get caught up and they get their award.
00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:00.319
So now it's my turn and I'm ready to go up and get my award.
00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:02.559
And the coach picked the sixth man.
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:05.119
And I didn't get one of the awards.
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:16.799
And I remember that my solution to the hurt that I was feeling was I had uh hidden a magazine um in my room, and it was like up underneath my drawer.
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:18.720
It was a sports illustrated swimsuit magazine.
00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:20.799
Yeah, me and my brother knew when the issue came.
00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:28.240
Mom put it in the trash, we dug out the trash, and so I had that hidden inside of my my drawer, and I went to that to bring comfort to myself.
00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:31.599
And like as a as an eighth-grade boy, I wasn't thinking, well, that's a coping mechanism.
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:31.839
Right.
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:36.799
But now as an adult, I'm like, man, you recognize I 100% like that's what I went to.
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:42.480
And so I was living in this duality of I was saved, I was in a a church where I was serving.
00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:49.440
My dad was a senior pastor, and I was um I sang quite a bit, and so I was singing, I was playing drums, some, I was involved in worship services.
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:58.880
At the same time, though, I'm living out this this other secret life that no one no one knows about, nobody, no one knows the pull that pornography has on me.
00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:08.160
And it just continued to progress, and it reached a point where it really became unmanageable when I went to college, when I went to Anderson University.
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:08.559
Right.
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:12.960
Because it was the first time in my life I had my own computer and I had high-speed internet access.
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:26.640
And this was, you know, really the the time of the dawn of the internet, and to be able to have access to pornography sites at any time of the day, all day long, just shut your door and you're by yourself, it was a real it was a real issue for me.
00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:37.839
So one of the things I say often to people is that our addiction is not geographical, so it doesn't mean, oh, I'm gonna go to this Christian college and this and then I'll be safe from this.
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:39.759
No, we take it with us wherever we go.
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.240
Yeah, and and honestly, the Christian college made it worse.
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:42.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:46.240
It really did because it provided me it provided me more access.
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:51.920
And so I was at Anderson for two years, came back to MTSU, started working on the recreation degree.
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:57.759
That's when Holly and I started dating, and all along, she has no idea about any of this.
00:29:57.920 --> 00:29:59.200
I'm living on my own.
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:02.319
I mean, pornography is something I'm going to regularly.
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:07.680
And then we come to this point where, man, we're we're probably headed towards marriage.
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:08.160
Right.
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:16.240
And I remember one night realizing that I loved her, this clear thought of I love this girl, and I'd never been in love before.
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:22.880
And the next thought that came was I I'm convinced it was the voice of the enemy was like, You're gonna ruin this.
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:23.200
Yeah.
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:25.119
And it was the thought of pornography.
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:28.960
And I walked out on her balcony and I began to physically throw up.
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:33.440
And this brought me into a season of severe panic attacks and anxiety.
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:38.559
All I've now realized, uh, rooted in this double identity.
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:39.440
Secret sin.
00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:40.160
Secret sin.
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:41.920
Can't confess it.
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:43.759
Feel like it's gonna come out at some point.
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:48.079
But if I if it comes out, I'm probably gonna lose this first person that I've ever loved.
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:57.440
And um, so I continue to carry it and bury it and hide it and delete histories and do everything that I can to make sure that nobody finds out about it.
00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:02.720
And so we're engaged, we'd gone through premarital counseling, we're getting close to getting married.
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:09.119
We went to the Passion Conference, which is a conference for college students, and they had a breakout opportunity.
00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:12.960
There was all these different classes you could go to, and I saw this breakout on the list.
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:15.599
And I'm like, okay, how can I get to this breakout without anyone knowing?
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:25.440
So I excused myself and I went to a breakout for Triple X Church, which was at the time kind of the biggest group that was working within pornography.
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:33.200
And so it's a bunch of dudes that love the Lord, and part of their ministry was they were going into porn conventions and loving on porn stars, but then they also had some accountability software.
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:33.599
Right.
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:39.519
And so I wanted to know what they had to say because this was the world I was living in, like pornography, and I'm a Christian.
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:41.039
So I wanted, I wanted to know.
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:58.880
And I'll never forget, Mike, I walked in and Craig Gross, the founder of Triple X Church, he's on a stage and he's speaking and he says, verbatim, there are some of you in here today that are struggling with a pornography addiction, and you're engaged, and you think that when you get married, pornography is not gonna be an issue.
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:01.359
And like pins me, I'm like, amen, brother.
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:02.559
Like that's that's me.
00:32:02.799 --> 00:32:06.880
Because in my mind, once I get married, like I can have sex, I don't have to do that.
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:09.759
Sex twice a day, like it's everything that I've I've imagined to throw.
00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:11.920
There are a lot of lives wrapped up in that.
00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:17.119
So I remember hearing him say that, and my thought was, idiot, like this guy doesn't know.
00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:20.799
He doesn't know me, he doesn't know that I'm gonna be able to turn this switch off and everything's gonna be good.
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:28.160
And so December 13th, 2008 comes and goes, and man, we're married and everything's good for the first three months.
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:28.880
It was great.
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:31.839
I didn't look at a computer, I didn't look at anything, everything's awesome.
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:54.079
Well, sure enough, you know, three and a half months comes, and there I am back in front of a computer screen uh watching pornography, except this time the shame that I was feeling was even deeper because I had made this covenant to God with Holly in front of friends and family and vowing to be this person, and I'm already in three and a half months not being the person I said I was gonna be.
00:32:54.319 --> 00:33:09.119
And um, man, it it just got to a place where it became unmanageable that anytime I was hungry, angry, lonely, tired, upset, needing justification, needing validation, that was that was what I was going to.
00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:13.599
And I talked a little bit about the drowning that had taken place uh within the YMCA.
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:19.440
And when that happened and that other company came in, I got hired on by that company and I started traveling all over the place.
00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:28.720
And what I found is that traveling only made it worse for me because I was in a situation where I had some autonomy, nobody, nobody really knew me.
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:38.960
And it's interesting that um, if you pay attention, airports typically close to an airport or where a car rental will be, there's either gonna be a strip club or there's gonna be an adult bookstore.
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:39.359
Right.
00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:42.160
And so I found myself in places I swore I would never go.
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:44.799
I found myself doing things that I swore I would never do.
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:49.839
And and one day I can explain it in really no other way than this.
00:33:50.079 --> 00:34:02.720
I had acted out and um I went into the to the to the bathroom to take a shower, and it was like the Lord opened the floodgates and just let me feel the the weight of the sin in a way that I never had.
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:05.839
And I remember just falling on my face.
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:08.000
I couldn't, I physically could not get up.
00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:11.280
I was so overcome with shame.
00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:14.880
I was so overcome with conviction, which is good.
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:18.559
I was so tired of being two different people, right?
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:20.320
And I was like, this is it, I'm done.
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:21.360
I'm not doing this anymore.
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:24.480
I don't care what the cost is, I can't continue to carry this burden.
00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:28.639
So my first call was to the Reverend Jeff White, you know, called my dad.
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:30.719
Yeah, and and I said, Dad, I gotta tell you something.
00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:31.840
I'm crying through the tears.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:33.440
I told him, you know, I'm addicted to pornography.
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:36.400
And I've been addicted to pornography since I was probably 10.
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:38.239
And um, he's crying with me.
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:42.320
And he's like, Man, you need some support, you need some accountability, you need some guys in your corner.
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:43.840
And I said, I've got to tell Holly.
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:47.599
And he's like, Well, I'm gonna pray for you, you know, if you feel like that's what you you need to do right now.
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:56.159
And um, there's probably a better way to handle that in hindsight, but for me, it was like, I have this burden and I have to let it go right now.
00:34:56.400 --> 00:35:05.199
And so at the time Holly was teaching for the county schools, I got cleaned up, I drove to her school and I walked into her classroom, didn't know the classroom schedule.
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:16.800
God in his provision allowed me to show up right when she had just dropped her kids off to a special area because I don't know what I was thinking doing that, but it was like I just had to get this off in front of 25 second graders.
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:18.559
I'm gonna that's exactly right.
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:21.599
And so I walk in and she's like, Where why are you here?
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:22.320
Like, what are you doing?
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:29.280
And I walked in and I sat down at her desk and I put my hands on my head and I started crying and I said, I've got to tell you something.
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:31.119
I'm addicted to pornography.
00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:37.519
And I I think I was expecting her to take a ring off, to to smack me in the back of the head, start yelling, screaming, whatever.
00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:39.360
And that's not what happened.
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:46.639
What happened was Holly reached her arms around me from behind and she kissed the back of my head and she said, How can I help you?
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:48.320
Oh wow, wow.
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:52.800
And it was like in that moment, I realized like pornography can't ever love me back.
00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:53.280
Right.
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:54.480
You know, it it can't.
00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:55.760
It's it's empty.
00:35:56.000 --> 00:36:03.440
And so this began a process of me saying, I need some help and uh being honest with myself and being honest with others around me.
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:05.519
And so I didn't know what to do.
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:08.480
I didn't hadn't really ever heard anybody kind of talk about it.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:16.719
And so one day at New Vision, Pastor Brady alluded to um, what what were you watching last night on the computer or something like that?
00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:18.960
Never said pornography, but just kind of threw it out there.
00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:21.280
Those that were struggling, they they got it.
00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:29.360
And so after the service, I went up to him, and this was one of the first times I remember ever talking to uh to Pastor Brady and I said, Listen, you you mentioned this, and this is real for me.
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:34.880
I I've just kind of come come public uh with my wife and confess this and and I need some help.
00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:38.239
And he said, Well, maybe meet with one of our staff and see if they can help you.
00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:43.920
And so I go and meet with this guy, and um, to my surprise, he goes, Well, I don't really struggle with that.
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:47.679
And I was like, Oh, well, I I feel like a complete loser now.
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:48.480
Yeah, right.
00:36:49.039 --> 00:36:49.440
Thank you.
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:51.360
And so he says, Well, why don't you start a group?
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:55.840
And so I'm like, I'm pretty sure this is what the Bible's talking about when it says the blind leading the blind.
00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:56.960
But that's what I did.
00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:58.719
I didn't know any better.
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:02.000
And so I started a group in my house and I started just inviting people.
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:03.519
We went through every man's battle.
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:12.480
We watched the videos, we talked about it, and this began this journey for me of sharing my story and being really open with it, and like I'm not ashamed of it.
00:37:12.559 --> 00:37:12.800
Right.
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:15.760
Um, it's something that that God has done a work in my life.
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:21.039
And so as I began more to be more willing to share about it, the church started sending me people.
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:23.840
It was like, hey, this guy has a problem with pornography.
00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:25.039
Can you meet with him and talk to him?
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:31.039
And so I think that was kind of how I got on the church's radar was just being a guy who was willing to talk about pornography and sexual sin.
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:32.559
Yeah, that's great, Brad.
00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:33.039
Wow.
00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:33.599
Yeah.
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:47.760
One of the neat things about that story that is uh kind of contradictory to the way that it normally happens, though, is you being able to call your dad and talk to your dad about that.
00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:56.880
Very often, number one, either our dads are caught up in that, or we have no relationship with our dad, or there's a there's a father wound.
00:37:57.039 --> 00:38:06.719
So praise God for that that that little bit of heaven in that moment that even in the midst of this darkest thing, I can call my dad and and talk about that.
00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:08.400
So so that's great.
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:22.159
So you so you you confess to Holly, you now you've told Pastor Brady, you tell your dad, and then and so it just absolutely everything goes away, and you're completely healed, and and glory, hallelujah.
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:23.280
Definitely not.
00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:25.599
Uh that's definitely not not how it happened.
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:30.320
I I think in my mind I thought, you know, now that I've told somebody this desire is gonna go away.
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:41.360
But, you know, I've since done a lot of research and a lot of studying and understanding that, man, this is something that is affecting my brain and my neuropathways, and it's really become hardwired into the way that I think.
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:50.159
And it's it's a default for me that when something happens that's frustrating or traumatic, like this is what I want to go to because I'm gonna get that dopamine relief.
00:38:50.320 --> 00:39:04.079
And um, so for me, it became a process of having to get some accountability, having to have some other guys who were in my corner willing to walk with me, talk with me, share honestly with me, and me to share honestly with them.
00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:08.159
That was step one, but then also accountability to my devices, right?
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:09.360
Because I'm being accessed.
00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:13.039
Yeah, yeah, you know, uh, I'm I'm receiving access in some way, shape, or form.
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:25.599
And so for me, it was putting some software on my computers, it was getting rid of some devices because I came to realize like either I'm controlling my phone or my tablet or my computer, or on the other side of that, it's controlling me.
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:25.920
Right.
00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:32.320
And and there was there was definitely some of those things that was like, no, this is actually this is actually controlling me.
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:40.400
I think one of the biggest things early on was realizing that there were certain times that I just seemed to be falling to the sin.
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:43.760
And that time for me was Wednesday mornings between 8 a.m.
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:48.079
Yeah and 12 in the afternoon because I worked a late night shift at the Y.
00:39:48.559 --> 00:39:57.440
Holly was already headed to school, she's gone, I'm by myself, and so I would be bored and I might get on the computer to do something that is harmless and fine.
00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:02.320
All of a sudden you're clicking, clicking, clicking, and then you're somewhere that you you didn't want to be.
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:09.440
And so I made this commitment with my accountability person that Wednesdays from eight to twelve, I was gonna do something else.
00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:12.800
And so interestingly enough, I I decided to take up fishing.
00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:16.559
And so I would watch YouTube videos on Tuesday nights of how to fish.
00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:16.880
Uh-huh.
00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:20.639
And then on Wednesdays, I would go down to the river and and fish.
00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:26.800
And the funniest thing, one day I'm I'm out there and I'm fishing, and all of a sudden I feel like something on the other end of the pole.
00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:33.039
I never caught anything, and I've catched this fish, and then I'm like, I never watched a video on how to take a fish off.
00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:40.000
And so I made some I made some uh sashimi on the side of the uh the side of the greenway that day.
00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:43.199
But it's it's been funny because now fishing is like one of my favorite hobbies.
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:51.199
I absolutely love to fish, and really fishing started for me so that I was doing something positive and productive instead of just sitting in isolation.
00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:52.159
That's neat.
00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:56.159
Uh we, you know, a little bit of my story, and we've talked about tennis.
00:40:56.239 --> 00:40:57.440
The tennis is that for me.
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:05.440
Yeah, I started playing tennis as I entered into recovery, and and every once in a while I think, well, why do I love tennis so much?
00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:11.199
And I realize I love it because it's so deeply ingrained with my own recovery and all of that.
00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:11.599
Yeah.
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:26.880
Another important step that that that you've pointed out, Brad, we when we work with people, one of the things, first things I do is ask men to write out their their ritual uh Wednesday mornings.
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:28.880
I'm home all alone, that's when this happens.
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:36.960
I always say, you know, if if that's true, by the time it's Wednesday at 10 o'clock and I'm looking at YouTube videos, I'm I'm gone.
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:37.840
I'm too far off.
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:38.480
Absolutely.
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:43.440
So I need to Tuesday night, I need to pull up the fishing videos and say, here's how I'm gonna stop this.
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:43.920
So good.
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:44.320
So good.
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:48.960
I I liken that to if if I said, Hey Mike, I'm gonna be at your front door at 9 a.m.
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:50.800
tomorrow and I'm gonna punch you when you walk out the door.
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:50.960
Yeah.
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:53.760
And then I punch you at 9 a.m., you're like, why'd you punch me?
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:55.199
I said, Well, I told you I was gonna be here.
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:55.360
Right.
00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:57.280
And then the next day I'll say, I'm gonna be back at 9 a.m.
00:41:57.440 --> 00:41:57.760
tomorrow.
00:41:57.840 --> 00:41:58.960
And then the same thing happens.
00:41:59.119 --> 00:41:59.440
Right.
00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:02.880
By the third day, hopefully you're coming out with a helmet on, you're doing something different.
00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:06.960
You're you're not gonna walk through the same pattern when you're getting punched every single time.
00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:08.639
Or I'm gonna leave the house at eight o'clock.
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:09.280
Yeah, exactly.
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:12.000
So I realize, man, I'm getting punched every single Wednesday.
00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:16.400
So if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got, as Jeff White would say.
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:18.239
So yes, that's right.
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:23.840
Our uh our fathers got so much smarter when we got a little older, didn't they?
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:24.800
Man, I'm telling you.
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:25.519
That's neat.
00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:26.159
So good.
00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:28.239
So God has continued that process.
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:30.000
And I appreciate you saying that so much.
00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:37.280
It is, I do believe, I believe there's absolute miraculous healing, and God in an instant can change things.
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:44.159
But there's also that process, and I continue to learn more about accountability software.
00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:48.079
I continue to be involved in groups, to read books, to do all of those things.
00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:48.960
So good for you.
00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:52.079
To this day, I still have accountability software on my phone.
00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:53.280
I have covenant eyes.
00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:56.719
If somebody's looking for a great software, that would be the one that I would recommend.
00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:07.760
$20 a month, and my dad is getting screenshots of what I'm looking at, and my buddy Brad is getting screenshots of what I'm looking at because I don't want to be in a situation where that temptation comes and I have access.
00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:15.199
So Craig Rochelle, who's a who's a pretty well-known pastor, he says, Why deal with temptation in the future if you can eliminate it today?
00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:16.079
Yes, absolutely.
00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:22.079
And so for me, covenant eyes has been a way that I can eliminate that temptation now before I ever walk through the doors of it.
00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:22.719
Yeah.
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:37.280
And so in your work with men now and your work at the church, I'm sure this is a very big part of what you do of helping men to put some things in place to overcome addictions and it's weekly.
00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:47.599
I mean, it's a weekly conversation that I meet with a guy, and what I found is, and I'm sure you would agree with this, that for most of these men, I become the first person that they've disclosed this to.
00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:49.280
And there's really two categories.
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:56.880
I think there's the guy who has been caught and his wife has sent him to the church, or there's the guy who's just come to a point of like, I can't keep doing this.
00:43:57.440 --> 00:43:59.679
And my preference is the guy who says I can't keep doing that.
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:05.760
Because he's come to a place of really hating his sin and seeing it for what it is, and he wants to pursue the holiness of Christ.
00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:09.519
The guy who got in trouble, he just wants to get back on his wife's good side.
00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:21.920
And he may he might realize that that it's a problem, but uh what I've realized in working with guys, and I'm sure you would agree with this, that until a guy says, Man, I see this as sin and I hate this, yeah, then he's not ready to do the work that's required.
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:23.280
Yeah, I agree.
00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:32.800
I've said if I could if I could create a pill that you could give a guy and make him hate his sin, we'd we'd make a million bucks.
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:33.519
So that's it.
00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:36.079
Brad, wow, what a what a great, great thing.
00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:48.159
Well, it's interesting to me that that I come up with these wild-eyed thoughts of what this is going to be about, and God in his grace makes it about that.
00:44:48.400 --> 00:45:08.880
But but God was at work on you when you were a 10-year-old boy, about the time that you and Jacob are sitting there talking, that God was leading you through some dark days, yeah, preparing you for really what is the most significant thing you'll ever do in your life, yeah, is reach men and deliver them from that.
00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:10.800
Wow, Brad, what a great story.
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:14.559
Thank you for for your courage to tell that.
00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:21.039
Uh, and I know you know this, but one of my favorite sayings is every time we tell our story, our shame is cut in half.
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:26.159
I just it it keeps me clean and sober by telling the story over and over again.
00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:30.000
But but how God has used that just been so neat.
00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:32.239
Let me ask you before we go.
00:45:33.039 --> 00:45:38.880
Uh I always hate when people ask me, well, give me three little points, but uh, but I but I'm gonna do it anyway.
00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:40.079
Three, what would you say?
00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:46.960
If you could go back and talk to 10, 11, 12-year-old Brad and say, Don't do this, don't go down that path.
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:47.280
Yeah.
00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:55.599
What what kinds of things and and maybe I'm thinking also parents who have 10, 12-year-old boys that they think, oh, they're fine.
00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:55.760
Sure.
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:57.920
What what's some things you could say to help them?
00:45:58.239 --> 00:45:59.760
Well, you know, I've I've been in this situation.
00:45:59.840 --> 00:46:03.599
I have a 15-year-old son, yeah, and so I've navigated these waters.
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:09.840
And I think one of the things that there's so much research around now is age of exposure.
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:11.440
It's it's getting lower and lower.
00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:15.199
I think the average age of exposure is seven or eight now because of technology.
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:15.519
Right.
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:22.400
And so we have um had the conversations with our kids, and we had the conversations with our kids early and age appropriate.
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:28.239
So there's a great book for parents called Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, and that's for your kids that are five, six, seven.
00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:44.719
Um, and then really with Cade, we went through a book called Guy Stuff, and it really just talks about pre-puberty, but then walking through that and explaining God's design for sex and then explaining how pornography is really this um deviation that Satan manipulated this good gift that God has given us.
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:50.079
And so what I tell young guys and and old guys too is it's like a fire.
00:46:50.239 --> 00:46:50.960
Sex is like a fire.
00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:56.480
You've heard it before that when it's out in a field and it's loose, man, it's dangerous and it wreaks havoc.
00:46:56.559 --> 00:47:04.639
But inside of the fireplace, within God's design, within the way that God has given it to us, it is this beautiful and wonderful gift and it's worth waiting for.
00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:07.119
It's not a don't do it, it's a wait and do it right.
00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:08.239
Yeah, that's good, Brandon.
00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:09.199
Yeah, it's really good.
00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:14.639
Well, the other side of that, though, the guy that says, Man, I'm 55 years old.
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:16.639
I wish I had talked to you when I was 15.
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:17.119
Yeah.
00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:18.559
Uh, what do I do now?
00:47:18.639 --> 00:47:20.000
I'm just, I just, I've tried.
00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:22.159
I can't, I can't quit.
00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:23.440
What do I do now?
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:25.840
Yeah, you're never, you're never too far gone, right?
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:27.760
God's God's grace is enough.
00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:35.039
I think first and foremost, you've got to be able to admit it to yourself that this is an issue, that this is a problem, this is something that's controlling me.
00:47:35.119 --> 00:47:36.400
It's not honoring to God.
00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:47.920
Number two is admitting it to someone that is a close friend, someone that's a mentor, um, to get some accountability because accountability is something that is so key for walking with a pornography addiction.
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:56.559
If you try to do this on your own, and I tried on my own uh without accountability, you're gonna end up back in front of your computer or your phone within weeks or months.
00:47:56.800 --> 00:48:09.840
And so having that um accountability in person and then having some accountability to your devices, and so putting the triple X Church or the Covenant Eyes software on there, or maybe even saying, gosh, maybe I should just get a flip phone.
00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:10.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:15.039
You know, so I I think making some decisions to set yourself up best for success.
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:22.400
And then I had this idea um that I've kind of thought out and put some time into is this idea of mapping, and it's really saying, like, when am I falling?
00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:23.920
When am I getting punched in the face?
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:35.519
And making a plan for those times when I continue to fall to that same sin, because sin seems to be in my life anyway, it's been very habitual, and it's sin it seems to have happened in the same way on the same day at the same time.
00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:43.760
And so having a plan for those times when the pressure's gonna come, uh, because if I go into you know my Wednesday without a plan, I'm set up for failure.
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:44.639
Yeah, yeah.
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:45.599
Well, that's good.
00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:46.320
Thank you, Brad.
00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:52.320
Yeah, Brad has written a great book called The Little Book About the Big Lie of Pornography.
00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:52.719
Yeah.
00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:55.280
Uh it's available on Amazon.
00:48:55.440 --> 00:48:57.280
Uh, I'm sure you can get it from him.
00:48:57.440 --> 00:49:06.639
We actually will put in show notes both of these books that he just mentioned and also uh Brad's book, and I'd encourage you to get those, follow up on those.
00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:11.679
Well, here we are, full circle, back home for the very first time.
00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:22.079
Uh I feel like I've I feel like I have sat down with an old friend and found out all kinds of new things about him, and so met him for the first time again.
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:24.400
And that's what God is doing in our lives.
00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:35.519
Never be surprised at the things that you went through in the early days of your life that God brings around full circle to be some of the greatest blessings in your life.
00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:41.039
And never imagine that God is finished with you, that he can't do something with you.
00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:43.519
He's still bringing you back home again.
00:49:43.679 --> 00:49:47.039
And when you get there, you'll realize you were there for the very first time.
00:49:47.280 --> 00:49:49.360
Thank you so much for being a part of this.
00:49:49.519 --> 00:49:51.119
This is Extending Branches.
00:49:51.199 --> 00:49:58.480
It's a podcast that we do regularly to help you have a better understanding of how to live happier, healthier, and holier lives.
00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:03.519
If you like what you see here, we encourage you to go to the branches website and follow up there.
00:50:03.679 --> 00:50:09.920
We'd also like you to like, click, subscribe, share, whatever those things are that you're supposed to do.
00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:17.039
We are glad that you're a part of this conversation, especially glad to have this conversation with my friend Brad White.
00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:21.199
We believe that God has said to us, He's the vine.
00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:23.679
If we remain in him, our life will be full.
00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:27.760
So our desire then is to extend that branch to you.
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:28.800
God bless you.
00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:30.480
Have a great day.