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Welcome back to Everything's Public Health.
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I'm MJ.
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And I'm Cass.
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I don't think we explicitly talked about this.
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How much comms do you do on a day-to-day basis?
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I know you talk to press often.
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I mean it's variable.
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And I guess it depends on what you consider comms.
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I would say on a monthly average, I probably do between two and five interviews, whether that's print, TV, radio.
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Really?
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Oh wow.
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Yeah, on average, we're spreading it out across the year.
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Like in June for Gun Violence Awareness Month, I give like 40 interviews.
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So dang dang.
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So we we spread it out.
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Or if there's like a big high-profile incident, we'll do a lot.
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That's more than once a day.
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I do a satellite media tour in June, where I do 12 interviews in a three-hour period.
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Are you not burnt out by the 12-winds?
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Oh, my brain cannot work.
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It is leaking out of my ears at the end.
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But then I also do like science communication when I'm translating to policymakers or whatever.
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So I will count that.
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A good portion of my job is communications.
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Would you count this, I guess?
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Is this communication?
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Yes, I would count this as communications.
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Yeah.
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This is definitely comms.
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It's research translation.
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It's sure.
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Trying to educate folks with the most up-to-date public health stuff.
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Yes, we are the cutting edge.
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Anyone keep a serious face saying that?
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Um I do a little bit of comms in that I do this podcast.
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Um, but yeah, it's not in my normal job subscription to do comms.
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And public health communication is something that's increasingly more difficult by the day.
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I'm sure you can attest to that.
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Big tech and a polarized media war zone has made plain good faith public health communication nearly impossible, in my opinion.
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You really have to adjust how you do it nowadays.
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It also doesn't help that some of the official channels of public health communication are now being occupied by some less than qualified actors.
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However, in a twisted way, this means public health communication is even more critical now than before.
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And this means having people who do public health communication as a job is important because it's not going to happen spontaneously.
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You're paid to do it, at least part of your time is paid to do it, and that's important.
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Can you imagine if all that is voluntary work on top of normal stuff?
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I mean, a good portion of it is, because I actually there's nothing in my job description that says cast talk to media, cast do these things.
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I mean it is uh Oh really?
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It is an element of public health practice, it's an element of research translation, but there are a lot of researchers who don't ever talk to the media, even in the institution where we work.
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So that's very true.
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Yes, there is a lot of it that I do for work, but sometimes I do it also because I think it's important.
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And certainly this is not work.
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This is just funsies on the side.
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But there is an important difference.
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Like we are public health professionals using our platform, doing you know what we love.
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But there's a difference between that and someone who does it full-time for a job who does health communication or media, whatever it might be.
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Both are important.
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I think we serve an important role, as do people who do this for their full-time job.
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But what we're doing, someone doing it on the side, we can only go so far.
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Yeah.
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You really do need someone to take the time to think about how to navigate, especially now the landscape.
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And that takes a lot of brain power to think about how do I mix this public health message in in a TikTok algorithm.
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That doesn't happen spontaneously.
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Well, and I think it's also important, just like you need training on how to conduct quantitative research or qualitative research or any of those kinds of things, there is a lot of science that goes into not just health communication, but communication in general, what resonates with people, how do you accurately and effectively translate information?
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So it can be a real challenge, even for people who have a lot of training to do it on the side.
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But yeah, that's why we need professionals who can show us how it's done.
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Definitely.
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And now more than ever, because we're witnessing in real time when that space isn't occupied by people who know what they're talking about.
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That space will be occupied by people who don't know what they're talking about.
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So it's important that we do more of these things.
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Now, this is another special episode.
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This is a collab episode with some public health communicators from Communication Breakdown Podcast.
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The rest of the episode is our conversation with them about what public health communication is like in today's media landscape and some other burning questions that I had for them as well.
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We also joined them for an episode of their podcast, which should be coming out the same time as this one, and we'll link to that in the episode description.
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I will say this was a really fun sort of genesis.
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I know Tracy really well.
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We ran into each other at a conference and we were talking about I have a podcast, you have a podcast.
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Wouldn't it be so cool if we did an episode together and then MJ worked his magic and made it happen?
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And it was a very fun conversation.
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Both conversations were very fun.
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Please listen to both episodes and you get the full range of what we discussed.
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Quick note due to some technical issues, we have to utilize the backup recording done over Zoom.
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So please excuse some of the audio issues and weird cuts.
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I tried my best.
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But here it is.
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Here is our conversation with the communication breakdown podcast.
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Welcome to Everything is Public Health.
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Welcome our two guests, Tracy and Katrina.
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Hi.
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Hi.
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We're so excited to have the two of you here today.
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And we're gonna kick things off with some intros.
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Katrina, why don't you kick us off?
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Thanks.
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We're so excited to be here.
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My name is Katrina Boylan, and I am the senior research writer at the Center for Injury Research and Policy at Nationwide Children's Hospital.
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And I am a co-host of the Communications Breakdown Podcast.
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Yeah, I am Tracy Meehan.
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I am the director of research, translation, and communication at the Center for Injury Research and Policy at Nationwide Children's Hospital with Katrina and her fellow co-host of the Communications Breakdown Podcast.
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I am very excited today because we get to talk to two public health communication professionals.
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And I have many questions to ask our two professional communicators on this call.
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So the year is 2026.
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A lot of things are going on, both in the world, but also specifically in public health in the United States right now.
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And I feel like public health communications in the past, there were only a few channels to choose from.
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There's TV, there's radio.
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Back then, they it felt like there were only five newspapers.
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I'm sure there were more, but it felt like there was only five newspapers back then.
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But now the information landscape has been dramatically changed.
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There's the internet, there's social media.
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God forbid we bring up Substacks and how everyone can start a newsletter now.
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And obviously podcasting, which we do, and radio, TV, newspaper have all sort of exploded into like a hundred billion channels.
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There's information everywhere, arguably too much of it.
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And my first question is what does public health communication look like now versus in the past?
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Yeah, so it used to be that we could do one campaign and it would get out to a large shared audience.
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And we only needed a certain set of skills to do that.
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And now, like you said, there are so many different channels, and not everybody gets the same message.
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So as a health communicator, we need a ton of different skills.
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We have to wear so many more hats than we used to.
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We have to think about now social media strategy.
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We have to think about our audience and where are they so that we're making sure we're getting them where they are.
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We have to think about graphic design and visual communication and video and accessibility.
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We used to have to think about search engine optimization.
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Now we have to think about generative optimization with the AI chatbots and things like that.
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Right.
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So there's just so much more that we have to think about, which can be a challenge.
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But on the flip side, what it has also allowed us to do is have that more personalized messaging instead of that generic reach the quote public.
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Now we can have messaging that meets certain audiences in their language, where they are, with their cultural background.
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And so while it's harder, it also has opened a lot of opportunity as well.
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You mentioned having to wear so many hats.
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I have never been to communication school.
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I don't know what the two of your background is.
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That's an interesting question.
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So my background is my undergraduate degree is psychology.
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I have a master's degree in communication.
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And then I got all the way through my coursework in a PhD in public health.
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I kind of have this unique background where I learned to think about how do people think.
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And then I learned to think about how to talk to them.
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And then I learned how public health train people so I can put that all together.
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But the skill sets are very different.
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When you are a public health trained person, most of the time we train you on epidemiology and how to do the research and things like that.
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So you become a subject matter expertise.
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We don't always do the greatest job of teaching you how to have that audience expertise and how to talk to people and understand where they are and how to communicate.
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I really resonate with that.
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I was trained in my PhD program to talk to other researchers.
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This is how you talk about the question that you asked and the methods that you use and the nine million assumptions that you needed to make.
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And by the time you're done talking, researchers are like, oh yeah, I totally get it.
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And literally everybody else glazed over, snoring.
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They don't get it.
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And it took me a long time and a lot of training in how to talk to policymakers, how to talk to news media, how to talk just to like normal humans that you interact with to be able to develop a more clear and coherent message that nobody needs to know all of the teeny tiny caveats that we know we have to our findings that other researchers care about, but the general public just needs to know how we're approaching it.
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And I wish that was something that I had learned a lot earlier in my career.
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Yeah, we have a great story that we share with one of our researchers.
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The first interview she ever did was with the Today Show.
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So she went like right to the big guys, right?
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And they came in and they set up and they were talking to her about this study that she had just done.
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And I was there and it was well over an hour.
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They were asking her all these questions, and she was talking to them about the statistics she used and how important it was that they used the box cox transformation score and like all of these things.
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And I was watching, their eyes were glazing over.
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And finally they just said, okay, you know, we can work with this.
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They turned the lights off and they're taking her microphone off.
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And she said, you know, really, the result of the study is that kids are getting bigger and car seats aren't.
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And so we need to, as a field, figure out how to keep kids safer when they're in the car.
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And they said, that is what we've been trying to get you to say for an hour.
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They mic'd her back up, turned everything back on, but she didn't know how to communicate her research in a way that people would understand that.
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So I thought that was a great example.
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Yeah, Katrina, what about your background?
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How did you get into this field?
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Accidentally, I actually have a law degree.
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I also went to Ohio State.
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I worked at the Ohio House of Representatives on the communications staff for about two years.
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I like to say that my degree is from Ohio State, but my education is at the house because that's who taught me how to write.
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And I was writing about what was happening there.
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So what policies were being passed and considered.
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I was in these spaces, listening to these discussions and then turning around and writing like newsletters, you know, things like that, ghostwriting for legislators and their staff.
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So that's really where I learned to do the complex translation part, that piece of it in public health.
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When I started to work for Tracy, I had just come off of my mom's a pediatrician.
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I managed her practice for three, four years after law school.
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I didn't graduate into the best of circumstances.
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So I ended up doing that for a while.
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But I thought there was an area I was doing a lot of insurance, not negotiation, but trying to help a rural population understand how to navigate the insurance world.
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I was translating a complex subject for people who really just didn't know.
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And so I knew I was good at it, that I could really take things that were nuanced and complex and figure out what the person in front of me needs to know in order to achieve our desired outcome.
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And so I think Tracy had looked for a long time for a public health person that she could teach communications to and kind of gave up on it and decided to pick somebody with more of a policy and communications background that could learn public health.
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So I do glaze over when you talk about box scores or whatever it was.
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That doesn't do anything for me.
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I know enough now to know how to read studies, you know, and read that research, but my lens is always gonna be what does my audience need to know about this?
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Because I simply cannot evaluate, did you use the right method?
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Is this the right data source?
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I can't do that.
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That's not my job.
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Yeah, I come at it at a completely different angle, which I actually think is a strength of our team.
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Yes, of course.
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Yeah, yeah, that I can come at it and say, that's still not gonna work for the audience that we're looking at.
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So yeah.
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The conclusion that I take away from the three of you is what you guys brought up, is I think a lot of people they sort of ignore the fact that communication is a skill in and of itself, especially in academia.
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There's like, oh, you know a lot about this, right?
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Go to this show, go to this radio, and they neglect that.
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No, this is a full skill that you need to develop.
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And this is a skill that some people are very good at, like the two of you, and some people are need help.
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Or heavy editing in post.
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Heavy editing, yes, in post.
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Like me, you will never know because I edit all this out.
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Anyway, yeah.
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One thing I want to sort of ask is you mentioned the many hats that you guys have to wear and converting complex topics into simple ones.
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It feels like a lot of that is you have to sort of learn on a day-by-day basis because things change so quickly.
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And you have to develop strategies, moving strategies, because the message itself can vary a lot depending on what the media context is that very day, and how effective it would be will depend on what is the headline of that day.
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So I guess another question I want to ask is like, how do you adjust to that pace, like the pace of the 21st century where everything changes seemingly by the hour?
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Yeah, there's a couple of ways I think we do that.
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So I am by nature an early adopter.
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So I am always one of the ones that's paying attention to what are the different new things that are coming out, and how do we decide whether or not that that's something for us.
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But the other thing is we always go back to the audience first.
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So just because there's some hot new thing doesn't mean that we as public health need to be there if that's not where our audience is.
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And I think a lot of times people get kind of drawn in by, oh, there's this new platform.
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We need to be there.
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And they don't think about why they need to be there.
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And it's kind of putting the cart before the horse in a sense.
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Some of our role, honestly, is helping people figure out who is your audience.
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And it's shocking how often public health people don't know who their actual audience is.
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So defining who your audience is and figuring out where they are and guiding the conversation that way, I think is important.
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I would add to that, I think it's also where is your audience looking for this information?
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The audience you're looking for may be there, but you know, I think of myself a consumer of most of these channels myself.
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And I look for things in specific places.
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And honestly, if I'm getting in in a different channel, I'll use Instagram as an example.
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I use that on a more personal side.
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I don't look for as many kind of professional opportunities or things like that.
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That's just not where I look for it.
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And so, yep, I use Instagram.
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I might be your audience, but do I want that information there?
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And then even taking a step further, how do I want that information presented to me?
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How is it going to be engaging and capture my attention?
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We all know that's one of the biggest challenges right now of the environment is capturing the attention.
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So Tracy talked about the hats, right?
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We are thinking about all of these things.
00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:00.960
And then it's even, does my audience want this information?
00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:02.159
And then how do they want it?
00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:05.679
And how can I deliver it in a way that achieves these goals, you know?
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:16.080
I think it's such a good point you raise about these platforms and the tension between our personal capacity and our professional capacity.
00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:26.080
I'm similar, like my Instagram is very much a space where I'm posting stuff about my dog or baking or crocheting or whatever.
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:37.759
But increasingly, work has been tagging me in things that they're putting out on Instagram, which are important things, they're really important things that I'm quoted in or that I've done.
00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:41.039
But then it's changing my algorithm also.
00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:45.039
And like I'm not just seeing animals and baking and crochet.
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:47.679
I'm starting to see more work stuff in the personal space.
00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:53.200
So it's also, I just want to lift up again how we want to receive it and where we want to receive it.
00:16:53.360 --> 00:17:00.240
Cause just because somebody's in a space doesn't mean that's where they're looking for it, which makes it challenging to make sure we're getting the right message to the right people.
00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:07.680
I also think it's really important to think about if we are the right person to communicate in that platform.
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:12.400
There are times when TikTok is the place that we should be getting information out.
00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:15.440
And I am not the best messenger for that.
00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:16.720
I stay on top of it.
00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:24.400
I know kind of what the themes are and what it should look like, but depending on who the audience is on TikTok, I might not be the messenger that I want to hear from it.
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:32.160
So sometimes being a good health communicator is acknowledging we need to find a messenger that is more trusted for our audience.
00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:36.000
Who are they gonna hear it from and receive it from and know how to use the platform?
00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:43.759
Because how I say something on TikTok is different than how I'm gonna say it on Instagram versus on a media interview for CNN, right?
00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:45.279
They're very different messages.
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:49.599
So you have to know how to talk across the different platforms or find somebody who can.
00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:54.880
I think this is a perfect segue into the second topic I want to discuss is common pitfalls.
00:17:55.039 --> 00:18:04.559
Are there other pitfalls in public health communication in the 21st century that you see a lot of public health people make that you would like them to stop and stop making those mistakes?
00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:14.240
Yeah, I'll start with this one because as the non-public health person in the room, I will say one of my biggest challenges is when people expect their data to speak for itself.
00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:16.720
And I know as scientists, you want that.
00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:26.240
I've heard researchers and scientists tell me it feels like I don't have a good case for my data if I have to explain it or if I have to provide that context.
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:27.920
They want it to speak for itself.
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:31.920
But as a communicator, it goes back to that audience issue.
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:42.480
And I would say that even data, you know, in your presentations, even if you're a conference, your data needs to speak for itself in the terms of your method, the actual analysis piece of it.
00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:47.119
But you still need to provide the context of why this is important.
00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:48.960
That isn't always clear.
00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:57.839
You could sit in a room with researchers who might even be in your same field but aren't in your specific area of study and might not know the nuances.
00:18:58.000 --> 00:18:59.599
You know, we're in injury prevention.
00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.839
That's got a bunch of different angles that you could really go super deep in.
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:07.599
If you're in road safety, you might not know what's happening in drowning prevention.
00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:20.160
And so helping your audience understand the larger context, what's the system that this research is happening in, in my opinion, is where we go to with we're constantly asking this question of, so what?
00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:30.319
As somebody who works in injury prevention, you see data about, I remember early on, we had an exercise when I was being hired of write a press release about a certain number of injuries.
00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:34.240
And so it isn't just that these injuries are happening, it's why are they happening?
00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:35.279
How are they happening?
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:37.200
What are the mechanisms they're happening with?
00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:39.759
Helping people put into context, is this a lot?
00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:40.960
Is this a risk to me?
00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:44.799
How do I put this in this larger sense of risk that I already have?
00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:56.319
I really think that doing that for your audience no matter where you are, helping them understand why this data is going to be important to this larger conclusion that you're gonna make.
00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:00.079
That just really, I think, helps everybody know what to do with your data.
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:07.759
And then we can all go on that path with you to see, okay, yep, I can see why all of this is working and you know, I'm buying into your conclusion.
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:10.400
We talk about finding the story in your data.
00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:14.799
And I just want to clarify for us, that doesn't mean telling a story about your data.
00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:17.359
It's what is the story your data is telling.
00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:18.000
Tracy?
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:20.000
I agree with everything Katrina said.
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:25.119
Another thing we see a lot from public health, what we call the fire hose approach.
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:31.759
We as public health people like to tell you every single thing we know about a topic all at once.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:36.000
And in today's attention economy, we don't have that time.
00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:40.880
People aren't going to listen to all of that, read all of that, drill down and look at all.
00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:47.599
In fact, sometimes they see, oh my gosh, there's so much information and they don't hear any of it because they completely shut down.
00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:52.880
So one of the things that we try and teach people is to really communicate about a topic.
00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:55.519
You have to really figure out what is your key message.
00:20:55.680 --> 00:21:06.319
If you don't remember anything else about what I'm about to tell you, remember this one thing and start there and keep your message tight, but give a link to more information if people want it.
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.400
For some people, a couple things is enough.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:09.440
Other people want more.
00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:10.240
Link out.
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:11.920
They can go find that somewhere else.
00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:13.839
That resonates in two ways.
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:18.640
One, Katrina, when you were talking about the so what, people need to understand why it's important.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:21.839
And then you wrapped up with the basically a now what?
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:23.039
What do we do with it?
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.599
Like you need to give people some direction in that.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:27.200
I think a lot of people miss that.
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:31.599
They focus so much on the what, they don't put that other context around it.
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:35.119
And Tracy, you reminded me of something my dad always said.
00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:44.079
He was in the army at the end of the Vietnam War, and he would always talk about how the military would they would tell you what they're gonna tell you, then they would tell you, and then they would tell you what they told you.
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:47.440
And it was a very clear message, and you got it three times.
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:50.400
Nobody was confused, you knew exactly what you needed to do.
00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:57.839
And it sounds a little bit funny, but like we need to be much more simple and concise in what we are communicating to people.
00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:04.640
We have all of this stuff banging around at our Heads, nobody is gonna understand the through line at the end if we tell them so many things.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:06.400
So I just plus one to all of that.
00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:09.920
It's great to hear you thinking about this and communicating it in that way.
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:20.400
There's one more kind of angle to that is I think sometimes when we sit down to create public health messages, we're like in our office thinking about a campaign.
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:25.680
And we create all of these messages while we're thinking about this topic.
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:33.200
And sometimes the messages come out and we forget, oh, wait, whoever is receiving that isn't also thinking all of these things.
00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:39.440
And so pieces get missed, or we're making assumptions that people know all these things and sometimes they don't.
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:46.559
So taking that step back and making sure whatever your message is and that it could be seen kind of alone.
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:50.559
Like if you're scrolling through Instagram, there's one post that you're gonna see, right?
00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:53.359
Are you capturing what you need to capture in that post?
00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:58.720
Kind of that idea of messaging needs to survive contact with real world.
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:04.000
We need to double check that and stop and look at all of our messages before we put them out into the world.
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:10.240
Katrina, you mentioned earlier your background is about turning something complex into something that people can understand.
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:13.039
And this is a question I've been dying to ask the two of you.
00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:15.759
Ethically speaking, where is that line?
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:19.440
Like, how much simplification is too much simplification?
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:25.039
Like, is there a line between simplifying the nuances and misleading your audience?
00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:28.160
I do think simple words can be used to mislead.
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:42.240
For us, this is coming very much from a respect for an audience that isn't in it the way we are, but cares deeply about, again, in our field, it's all child injury prevention, which is an easier sell, you would think, in some cases, than some other stuff.
00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:44.319
But I think it's all about intent.
00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:58.480
Simplification is understanding what our audience actually needs from us and delivering that, stripping out, as we've talked about, all of this stuff that just doesn't matter to them because at the end of the day, especially we're doing child injury prevention.
00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:05.359
They don't need to know all of the nuances of why we ended up, maybe with some of the policies we did.
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:18.160
But I think helping people understand the trade-offs of certain choices is how we can go about handling some of these things that no, we can't get into the nuance of everything.
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.960
We can't expect everybody to pay attention at the level that we're seeing these things.
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:31.839
But if we can respect our audiences and not infantilize them, I don't know if that's the right word here, but yeah, we're not saying treat them like children.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:36.559
It's not manipulative to say, listen, your time is valuable.
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:38.640
We know you're just trying to keep your kiddo safe.
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:39.759
This is a hazard.
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:41.359
You need to keep an eye on this.
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:44.960
And so I really do come down to what's the intent here.
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:49.599
For us, we actually think good communication is showing the ultimate respect for your audience.
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:54.240
It doesn't start with what we want to say, it starts with what our audience needs to hear and how they need to hear it.
00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:57.119
And so in many cases, that is more simple language.
00:24:57.279 --> 00:24:59.200
It doesn't mean dumbing it down.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:03.599
It means explaining it in a way that your audience can use and understand.
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:08.000
And so I simply don't think those things exist on a continuum.
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:11.519
I think you can have simple truth and you can have complex lies.
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:19.200
If you can say it simply and share what the audience actually needs to hear, then we're actually going to, I think, increase our trust as well.
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:26.240
What are some public health communication professionals' tools when you come across disinformation or misinformation?
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.000
Like how have you guys dealt with it?
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:33.839
So one thing that we've really looked at is there's a little bit of research out there on something called a truth sandwich.
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:38.079
The research suggests actually it doesn't even need to be specifically this format.
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:52.079
The idea, though, it goes back to what Cass was talking about with the repetition, is the idea that when we focus on refuting, we're adopting the framework of that miss or disinformation and working in that framework, we're refuting something.
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:53.839
We're not affirming what we believe.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:57.759
And so the idea of this of the truth sandwich is you start with the truth.
00:25:57.920 --> 00:25:59.119
This is what's true.
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:05.359
Then you say, I understand that people believe this, you address the misinformation or disinformation.
00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:08.400
Like I heard this being said, that's not correct though.
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:09.279
This is the truth.
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:11.759
So truth, mis and disinfo, truth.
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:14.480
Now, they did some research to vary that up.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:17.839
And I think you can actually go disinfo, truth, truth.
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:23.920
I it just matters that again, you're getting that truth out there more times than the disinformation.
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:26.400
So that is one way to combat it.
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:28.880
It's not necessarily, though, going to be effective.
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:31.920
We've talked about those credible messengers at times.
00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:41.200
That's really one thing that we're struggling with is that how do we find credible messengers for the people that are receiving this and disinformation?
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:47.119
Again, misinformation is one we can kind of correct on the record, you know, maybe reach that and correct that information.
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.279
Disinformation is a lot harder to tackle, though.
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:55.039
And another tool that we use that kind of builds on that is going back to the audience.
00:26:55.279 --> 00:27:04.799
People want to feel heard, they want to feel seen, and they, in our case, want to protect their children if we're doing injury prevention, child injury prevention.
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:16.960
So when we look at the mis or disinformation, it is important for us to think about why they are having that reaction or why is this information being shared?
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:24.319
Sometimes it's because they don't come from the same background as we do, or they're hearing things in different silos.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:30.240
And so it's taking that step of what is it that caught their attention about this information?
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:38.240
And how can we communicate in a way where we understand why that's happening and acknowledge we hear you?
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:45.119
Here's our understanding of it, and here's how what we're saying can help in your situation, right?
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:57.519
It's that communicating with humility, empathy, care, seeing them where they are and not just going against them, but trying to understand your audience and figure out how to communicate in a way that they can hear it and understand.
00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:12.799
That can be really challenging, especially for some of our trainees or early career folks, because they may interpret what you're saying as I need to agree or I need to sort of understand where people are coming from to be able to talk with them.
00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:21.039
And you don't need to agree with people to have empathy and understand for whatever reason, they may come from a different perspective.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:25.920
And if you only ever talk to people who think exactly like you do, we're not going to make change, right?
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:29.440
We make change by having conversations with people who think differently.
00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:34.960
And a key to crafting effective counterarguments is understanding somebody else's perspective.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:39.920
You don't need to agree, but you at least need to understand that they don't think about something the way that you do.
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:49.759
And I think that's a real difficult skill that is super important for people to learn if they're operating in the space where they're trying to communicate about research.
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:59.920
What I have found is that it seems like people have a hard time understanding that you can explain all of the variables, give them all of the education, and that people will still make a different choice.
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:12.960
And that is tough for those of us that feel strongly about what the right choice might be or what the healthiest choice is going to be, or but what is best for me isn't necessarily in accordance with somebody else's life and values.
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:20.400
And so that's one thing that I know I still struggle with the idea that I can still give you all of the information and you still might make a different choice.
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:23.519
That's definitely a perennial public health struggle.
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:31.759
Empathy piece is so important because I don't think there's anyone out there who, when confronted aggressively, they go, Oh wow, you make an excellent point.
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:32.960
Let me change how I behave.
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:33.200
Right.
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:39.839
So having that empathy of like, I see where you're coming from is so important because you can't change people's minds by being compatible.
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:40.960
That never happens.
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:44.000
Knowing your audience, I think, is also comes back again.
00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:48.480
Like, we're trying to move the people for lack of a better term, like in the middle.
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:51.279
There are people who will never listen to you.
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:58.240
And it's, in my opinion, almost kind of like pointless to direct messaging towards the group of people who you know will never listen to you.
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:03.119
And knowing that you're not trying to reach everyone, you're trying to reach to people willing to listen.
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:05.839
That's one of the pitfalls I see a lot of public health folks.
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:11.119
They're doing their cone is so broad that the message is ineffective for everyone at the end of the day.
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:16.160
I hear you, and I completely agree that there are people who will never agree.
00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:17.839
I work in the space of gun policy.
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:19.920
There are people who will never agree with me.
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:23.279
I don't agree that we shouldn't try to talk to them.
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:29.119
Having one broad message where we're expecting everybody to buy in is not going to be effective.
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:46.799
But that's where some of the things that Tracy was saying at the beginning about knowing your audience, tailoring the message to who you're trying to reach, a message to somebody who I don't think will ever agree with me on gun policy is going to be very different than somebody who's receptive or somebody who agrees with what I think are the most effective policies.
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:49.119
It is about meeting people where they are.
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:51.599
I think that's sort of the key theme throughout this.
00:30:52.000 --> 00:31:00.720
You would be surprised not to talk too much about the work that I do, but we have been working forever in Virginia to try to get gun safety policies passed.
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:03.599
And people kept telling us you're never going to make progress in Virginia.
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:04.880
Don't bother, don't bother.
00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:16.559
It took us 12 years to start having really meaningful conversations and another six years to actually get policies passed, but we got there because we had messages tailored to people that we thought would never agree with us.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:21.039
And it turns out if you say stuff enough times, somebody eventually might listen.
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:25.599
So that was because of very thoughtful, tailored, and empathetic approach.
00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:28.480
And that's sort of the point I think we're all trying to make just in different ways.
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:37.759
We talked a lot about the challenges and some of the negative aspect of public health communication in the 21st century, but I want to end on a slightly positive note.
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:41.200
I think wherever there are challenges, there are also opportunities.
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:48.559
So I would love to hear what you think is something that we can do now that we perhaps we couldn't do maybe just a few years ago.
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:51.200
What are the positive of today's media landscape?
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:52.559
Or let's try to dig deep.
00:31:52.799 --> 00:32:08.240
One of the things I think is really positive is we have an opportunity to reach niche audiences with messages that are culturally competent, that they can hear, that start with what is their background, what are their challenges?
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:13.599
And we can do that in a way it's kind of that personalized medicine concept that we could never do before.
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:24.960
When we could only reach them on ABC, NBC, or CBS, you had to make your message so broad, as you said, MJ, sometimes it's so broad it doesn't hit for anybody.
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:31.359
And now we can personalize it in a way that addresses them and who they are, lets them feel heard and seen.
00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:36.240
And I know I personally like to think of public health communication as kind of a great equalizer.
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:49.200
And when I first started here, you know, Tracy's origin story is all about how she started at SERP and found out all the ways she could have killed her kid that she didn't know because it was stuck in a journal behind a paywall.
00:32:49.519 --> 00:33:03.440
You know, that's what I think is the best part about doing this type of work is that we get to take all of this stuff that nobody was gonna see 20 years ago because it was printed in paper journals and nobody's it all stayed buried before.
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:07.759
And now we can move information out faster than ever.
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:14.160
It used to be the translational time between publication to kind of effective adoption and practice was about 17 years.
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:16.000
I believe it was a long time.
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:20.640
And so we now can take information, again, we're in child injury.
00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:25.680
Stuff is hitting the market all the time about things that are going to be threatening to kids.
00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:27.680
But we now can see this coming.
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:30.960
We don't have to wait on a published study all the time.
00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:35.359
Yes, we need it for certain pieces of data, but we know those kids are hitting those ERs.
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:40.079
We're able to raise these issues faster and respond to them.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:52.319
And so I really love the opportunity to get in front of some of the things that in the past we would have had to wait 10 years and get that data and then then be able to get to work on that problem.
00:33:52.480 --> 00:34:06.720
So I just think about, you know, in our work, about all the kids that maybe because of an Instagram post or a news story or something that they've seen from our office, maybe kept that kiddo out of an ER or kept some family a little safer.
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:13.840
That to me is the most exciting part is this is information that is accessible and can be accessible if we make it accessible.
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:17.360
And so that's what I think is most exciting about having these avenues.
00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:21.039
Thank you for listening to this special episode of Everything is Public Health.
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:24.880
A special thank to our guests, Tracy and Katrina from Communication Breakdown Podcast.
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:26.639
Their links are in the episode description below.
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:31.119
If you like the show, the best thing you can do to help us is by telling everyone you know about the show.
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:33.360
Please rate, review, and leave a comment about the show.
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:34.719
That helps us a bunch as well.
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:41.199
If you have any questions or think we missed an important perspective, you can email us at everything ispublichealth at gmail.com.
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:47.039
For more information about the show, as well as bonus materials, please visit our website at everything ispublichealth.com.
00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:49.199
And remember, everything is public health.
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:51.519
Everything is public health.
00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:06.799
Welcome back to Everything's Public Health.
00:00:06.879 --> 00:00:07.360
I'm MJ.
00:00:07.519 --> 00:00:08.320
And I'm Cass.
00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:10.320
I don't think we explicitly talked about this.
00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:13.119
How much comms do you do on a day-to-day basis?
00:00:13.279 --> 00:00:15.039
I know you talk to press often.
00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:16.559
I mean it's variable.
00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:20.320
And I guess it depends on what you consider comms.
00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:31.519
I would say on a monthly average, I probably do between two and five interviews, whether that's print, TV, radio.
00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:32.079
Really?
00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:32.560
Oh wow.
00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:35.200
Yeah, on average, we're spreading it out across the year.
00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:39.600
Like in June for Gun Violence Awareness Month, I give like 40 interviews.
00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:41.039
So dang dang.
00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:42.159
So we we spread it out.
00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:44.640
Or if there's like a big high-profile incident, we'll do a lot.
00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:45.840
That's more than once a day.
00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:51.039
I do a satellite media tour in June, where I do 12 interviews in a three-hour period.
00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:52.880
Are you not burnt out by the 12-winds?
00:00:53.039 --> 00:00:54.240
Oh, my brain cannot work.
00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:55.920
It is leaking out of my ears at the end.
00:00:56.640 --> 00:01:02.799
But then I also do like science communication when I'm translating to policymakers or whatever.
00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:03.920
So I will count that.
00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:06.879
A good portion of my job is communications.
00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:08.239
Would you count this, I guess?
00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:09.359
Is this communication?
00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:10.959
Yes, I would count this as communications.
00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:11.280
Yeah.
00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:12.400
This is definitely comms.
00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:13.599
It's research translation.
00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:14.400
It's sure.
00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:18.560
Trying to educate folks with the most up-to-date public health stuff.
00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:20.640
Yes, we are the cutting edge.
00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:23.120
Anyone keep a serious face saying that?
00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:26.719
Um I do a little bit of comms in that I do this podcast.
00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:31.120
Um, but yeah, it's not in my normal job subscription to do comms.
00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:35.599
And public health communication is something that's increasingly more difficult by the day.
00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:37.040
I'm sure you can attest to that.
00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:45.359
Big tech and a polarized media war zone has made plain good faith public health communication nearly impossible, in my opinion.
00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:48.000
You really have to adjust how you do it nowadays.
00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:56.400
It also doesn't help that some of the official channels of public health communication are now being occupied by some less than qualified actors.
00:01:56.640 --> 00:02:02.239
However, in a twisted way, this means public health communication is even more critical now than before.
00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:09.120
And this means having people who do public health communication as a job is important because it's not going to happen spontaneously.
00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:13.680
You're paid to do it, at least part of your time is paid to do it, and that's important.
00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:17.919
Can you imagine if all that is voluntary work on top of normal stuff?
00:02:18.159 --> 00:02:26.479
I mean, a good portion of it is, because I actually there's nothing in my job description that says cast talk to media, cast do these things.
00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:28.000
I mean it is uh Oh really?
00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:39.759
It is an element of public health practice, it's an element of research translation, but there are a lot of researchers who don't ever talk to the media, even in the institution where we work.
00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:40.719
So that's very true.
00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:45.599
Yes, there is a lot of it that I do for work, but sometimes I do it also because I think it's important.
00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:47.039
And certainly this is not work.
00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:48.719
This is just funsies on the side.
00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:50.080
But there is an important difference.
00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:56.639
Like we are public health professionals using our platform, doing you know what we love.
00:02:56.800 --> 00:03:03.599
But there's a difference between that and someone who does it full-time for a job who does health communication or media, whatever it might be.
00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:04.639
Both are important.
00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:08.560
I think we serve an important role, as do people who do this for their full-time job.
00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:12.479
But what we're doing, someone doing it on the side, we can only go so far.
00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:12.960
Yeah.
00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:18.560
You really do need someone to take the time to think about how to navigate, especially now the landscape.
00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:25.599
And that takes a lot of brain power to think about how do I mix this public health message in in a TikTok algorithm.
00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:27.039
That doesn't happen spontaneously.
00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:46.080
Well, and I think it's also important, just like you need training on how to conduct quantitative research or qualitative research or any of those kinds of things, there is a lot of science that goes into not just health communication, but communication in general, what resonates with people, how do you accurately and effectively translate information?
00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:51.360
So it can be a real challenge, even for people who have a lot of training to do it on the side.
00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:54.879
But yeah, that's why we need professionals who can show us how it's done.
00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:55.599
Definitely.
00:03:55.680 --> 00:04:03.439
And now more than ever, because we're witnessing in real time when that space isn't occupied by people who know what they're talking about.
00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:07.360
That space will be occupied by people who don't know what they're talking about.
00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:10.000
So it's important that we do more of these things.
00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:12.000
Now, this is another special episode.
00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:16.480
This is a collab episode with some public health communicators from Communication Breakdown Podcast.
00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:25.759
The rest of the episode is our conversation with them about what public health communication is like in today's media landscape and some other burning questions that I had for them as well.
00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:33.680
We also joined them for an episode of their podcast, which should be coming out the same time as this one, and we'll link to that in the episode description.
00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:37.120
I will say this was a really fun sort of genesis.
00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:38.720
I know Tracy really well.
00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:44.319
We ran into each other at a conference and we were talking about I have a podcast, you have a podcast.
00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:49.040
Wouldn't it be so cool if we did an episode together and then MJ worked his magic and made it happen?
00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:50.879
And it was a very fun conversation.
00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:52.319
Both conversations were very fun.
00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:56.240
Please listen to both episodes and you get the full range of what we discussed.
00:04:56.480 --> 00:05:01.279
Quick note due to some technical issues, we have to utilize the backup recording done over Zoom.
00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:04.000
So please excuse some of the audio issues and weird cuts.
00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:04.879
I tried my best.
00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:05.519
But here it is.
00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:09.519
Here is our conversation with the communication breakdown podcast.
00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:13.600
Welcome to Everything is Public Health.
00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:15.759
Welcome our two guests, Tracy and Katrina.
00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:16.000
Hi.
00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:16.240
Hi.
00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:20.000
We're so excited to have the two of you here today.
00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:22.639
And we're gonna kick things off with some intros.
00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:24.720
Katrina, why don't you kick us off?
00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:25.439
Thanks.
00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:27.279
We're so excited to be here.
00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:35.279
My name is Katrina Boylan, and I am the senior research writer at the Center for Injury Research and Policy at Nationwide Children's Hospital.
00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:40.399
And I am a co-host of the Communications Breakdown Podcast.
00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:42.399
Yeah, I am Tracy Meehan.
00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:55.199
I am the director of research, translation, and communication at the Center for Injury Research and Policy at Nationwide Children's Hospital with Katrina and her fellow co-host of the Communications Breakdown Podcast.
00:05:55.439 --> 00:06:00.399
I am very excited today because we get to talk to two public health communication professionals.
00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:04.639
And I have many questions to ask our two professional communicators on this call.
00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:06.399
So the year is 2026.
00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:12.399
A lot of things are going on, both in the world, but also specifically in public health in the United States right now.
00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:17.759
And I feel like public health communications in the past, there were only a few channels to choose from.
00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:19.600
There's TV, there's radio.
00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:22.319
Back then, they it felt like there were only five newspapers.
00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:25.360
I'm sure there were more, but it felt like there was only five newspapers back then.
00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:29.920
But now the information landscape has been dramatically changed.
00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:32.160
There's the internet, there's social media.
00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:36.000
God forbid we bring up Substacks and how everyone can start a newsletter now.
00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:43.759
And obviously podcasting, which we do, and radio, TV, newspaper have all sort of exploded into like a hundred billion channels.
00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:46.720
There's information everywhere, arguably too much of it.
00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:51.199
And my first question is what does public health communication look like now versus in the past?
00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:59.759
Yeah, so it used to be that we could do one campaign and it would get out to a large shared audience.
00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:02.959
And we only needed a certain set of skills to do that.
00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:10.000
And now, like you said, there are so many different channels, and not everybody gets the same message.
00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:14.079
So as a health communicator, we need a ton of different skills.
00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:16.879
We have to wear so many more hats than we used to.
00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:20.000
We have to think about now social media strategy.
00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:25.920
We have to think about our audience and where are they so that we're making sure we're getting them where they are.
00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:32.000
We have to think about graphic design and visual communication and video and accessibility.
00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:35.920
We used to have to think about search engine optimization.
00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:41.279
Now we have to think about generative optimization with the AI chatbots and things like that.
00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:41.839
Right.
00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:47.839
So there's just so much more that we have to think about, which can be a challenge.
00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:58.160
But on the flip side, what it has also allowed us to do is have that more personalized messaging instead of that generic reach the quote public.
00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:07.120
Now we can have messaging that meets certain audiences in their language, where they are, with their cultural background.
00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:12.160
And so while it's harder, it also has opened a lot of opportunity as well.
00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:14.399
You mentioned having to wear so many hats.
00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:16.720
I have never been to communication school.
00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:18.720
I don't know what the two of your background is.
00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:20.079
That's an interesting question.
00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:23.439
So my background is my undergraduate degree is psychology.
00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:25.759
I have a master's degree in communication.
00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:31.279
And then I got all the way through my coursework in a PhD in public health.
00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:36.399
I kind of have this unique background where I learned to think about how do people think.
00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:39.120
And then I learned to think about how to talk to them.
00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:45.519
And then I learned how public health train people so I can put that all together.
00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:47.519
But the skill sets are very different.
00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:56.000
When you are a public health trained person, most of the time we train you on epidemiology and how to do the research and things like that.
00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:58.480
So you become a subject matter expertise.
00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:08.799
We don't always do the greatest job of teaching you how to have that audience expertise and how to talk to people and understand where they are and how to communicate.
00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:10.720
I really resonate with that.
00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:15.759
I was trained in my PhD program to talk to other researchers.
00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:23.600
This is how you talk about the question that you asked and the methods that you use and the nine million assumptions that you needed to make.
00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:27.360
And by the time you're done talking, researchers are like, oh yeah, I totally get it.
00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:30.559
And literally everybody else glazed over, snoring.
00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:31.440
They don't get it.
00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:57.360
And it took me a long time and a lot of training in how to talk to policymakers, how to talk to news media, how to talk just to like normal humans that you interact with to be able to develop a more clear and coherent message that nobody needs to know all of the teeny tiny caveats that we know we have to our findings that other researchers care about, but the general public just needs to know how we're approaching it.
00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:00.799
And I wish that was something that I had learned a lot earlier in my career.
00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:04.799
Yeah, we have a great story that we share with one of our researchers.
00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:08.159
The first interview she ever did was with the Today Show.
00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:11.039
So she went like right to the big guys, right?
00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:16.559
And they came in and they set up and they were talking to her about this study that she had just done.
00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:19.600
And I was there and it was well over an hour.
00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:30.320
They were asking her all these questions, and she was talking to them about the statistics she used and how important it was that they used the box cox transformation score and like all of these things.
00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:33.360
And I was watching, their eyes were glazing over.
00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:36.720
And finally they just said, okay, you know, we can work with this.
00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:39.919
They turned the lights off and they're taking her microphone off.
00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:46.559
And she said, you know, really, the result of the study is that kids are getting bigger and car seats aren't.
00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:51.440
And so we need to, as a field, figure out how to keep kids safer when they're in the car.
00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:54.799
And they said, that is what we've been trying to get you to say for an hour.
00:10:54.879 --> 00:11:02.000
They mic'd her back up, turned everything back on, but she didn't know how to communicate her research in a way that people would understand that.
00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:03.360
So I thought that was a great example.
00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:05.679
Yeah, Katrina, what about your background?
00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:07.360
How did you get into this field?
00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:09.679
Accidentally, I actually have a law degree.
00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:11.519
I also went to Ohio State.
00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:15.840
I worked at the Ohio House of Representatives on the communications staff for about two years.
00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:21.759
I like to say that my degree is from Ohio State, but my education is at the house because that's who taught me how to write.
00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:24.720
And I was writing about what was happening there.
00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:27.519
So what policies were being passed and considered.
00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:36.000
I was in these spaces, listening to these discussions and then turning around and writing like newsletters, you know, things like that, ghostwriting for legislators and their staff.
00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:41.039
So that's really where I learned to do the complex translation part, that piece of it in public health.
00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:45.200
When I started to work for Tracy, I had just come off of my mom's a pediatrician.
00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:48.399
I managed her practice for three, four years after law school.
00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:50.799
I didn't graduate into the best of circumstances.
00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:52.720
So I ended up doing that for a while.
00:11:52.879 --> 00:12:03.039
But I thought there was an area I was doing a lot of insurance, not negotiation, but trying to help a rural population understand how to navigate the insurance world.
00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:07.679
I was translating a complex subject for people who really just didn't know.
00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:18.879
And so I knew I was good at it, that I could really take things that were nuanced and complex and figure out what the person in front of me needs to know in order to achieve our desired outcome.
00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:33.440
And so I think Tracy had looked for a long time for a public health person that she could teach communications to and kind of gave up on it and decided to pick somebody with more of a policy and communications background that could learn public health.
00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:37.679
So I do glaze over when you talk about box scores or whatever it was.
00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:39.440
That doesn't do anything for me.
00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:48.960
I know enough now to know how to read studies, you know, and read that research, but my lens is always gonna be what does my audience need to know about this?
00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:51.679
Because I simply cannot evaluate, did you use the right method?
00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:52.879
Is this the right data source?
00:12:53.039 --> 00:12:53.759
I can't do that.
00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:54.399
That's not my job.
00:12:54.559 --> 00:12:58.159
Yeah, I come at it at a completely different angle, which I actually think is a strength of our team.
00:12:58.399 --> 00:12:58.960
Yes, of course.
00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:04.240
Yeah, yeah, that I can come at it and say, that's still not gonna work for the audience that we're looking at.
00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:04.879
So yeah.
00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:16.399
The conclusion that I take away from the three of you is what you guys brought up, is I think a lot of people they sort of ignore the fact that communication is a skill in and of itself, especially in academia.
00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:18.080
There's like, oh, you know a lot about this, right?
00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:21.279
Go to this show, go to this radio, and they neglect that.
00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:23.840
No, this is a full skill that you need to develop.
00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:28.960
And this is a skill that some people are very good at, like the two of you, and some people are need help.
00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:30.639
Or heavy editing in post.
00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:32.240
Heavy editing, yes, in post.
00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:35.120
Like me, you will never know because I edit all this out.
00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:36.000
Anyway, yeah.
00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:43.519
One thing I want to sort of ask is you mentioned the many hats that you guys have to wear and converting complex topics into simple ones.
00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:49.200
It feels like a lot of that is you have to sort of learn on a day-by-day basis because things change so quickly.
00:13:49.279 --> 00:14:01.519
And you have to develop strategies, moving strategies, because the message itself can vary a lot depending on what the media context is that very day, and how effective it would be will depend on what is the headline of that day.
00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:09.759
So I guess another question I want to ask is like, how do you adjust to that pace, like the pace of the 21st century where everything changes seemingly by the hour?
00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:11.919
Yeah, there's a couple of ways I think we do that.
00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:15.120
So I am by nature an early adopter.
00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:24.720
So I am always one of the ones that's paying attention to what are the different new things that are coming out, and how do we decide whether or not that that's something for us.
00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:28.720
But the other thing is we always go back to the audience first.
00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:35.679
So just because there's some hot new thing doesn't mean that we as public health need to be there if that's not where our audience is.
00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:41.759
And I think a lot of times people get kind of drawn in by, oh, there's this new platform.
00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:43.279
We need to be there.
00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:45.919
And they don't think about why they need to be there.
00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.039
And it's kind of putting the cart before the horse in a sense.
00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:54.240
Some of our role, honestly, is helping people figure out who is your audience.
00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:58.879
And it's shocking how often public health people don't know who their actual audience is.
00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:06.080
So defining who your audience is and figuring out where they are and guiding the conversation that way, I think is important.
00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:10.399
I would add to that, I think it's also where is your audience looking for this information?
00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:17.600
The audience you're looking for may be there, but you know, I think of myself a consumer of most of these channels myself.
00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:20.399
And I look for things in specific places.
00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:25.200
And honestly, if I'm getting in in a different channel, I'll use Instagram as an example.
00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:27.120
I use that on a more personal side.
00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:31.120
I don't look for as many kind of professional opportunities or things like that.
00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:32.799
That's just not where I look for it.
00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:35.120
And so, yep, I use Instagram.
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:38.320
I might be your audience, but do I want that information there?
00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:44.240
And then even taking a step further, how do I want that information presented to me?
00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:47.759
How is it going to be engaging and capture my attention?
00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:53.279
We all know that's one of the biggest challenges right now of the environment is capturing the attention.
00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:55.519
So Tracy talked about the hats, right?
00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:57.600
We are thinking about all of these things.
00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:00.960
And then it's even, does my audience want this information?
00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:02.159
And then how do they want it?
00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:05.679
And how can I deliver it in a way that achieves these goals, you know?
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:16.080
I think it's such a good point you raise about these platforms and the tension between our personal capacity and our professional capacity.
00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:26.080
I'm similar, like my Instagram is very much a space where I'm posting stuff about my dog or baking or crocheting or whatever.
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:37.759
But increasingly, work has been tagging me in things that they're putting out on Instagram, which are important things, they're really important things that I'm quoted in or that I've done.
00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:41.039
But then it's changing my algorithm also.
00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:45.039
And like I'm not just seeing animals and baking and crochet.
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:47.679
I'm starting to see more work stuff in the personal space.
00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:53.200
So it's also, I just want to lift up again how we want to receive it and where we want to receive it.
00:16:53.360 --> 00:17:00.240
Cause just because somebody's in a space doesn't mean that's where they're looking for it, which makes it challenging to make sure we're getting the right message to the right people.
00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:07.680
I also think it's really important to think about if we are the right person to communicate in that platform.
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:12.400
There are times when TikTok is the place that we should be getting information out.
00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:15.440
And I am not the best messenger for that.
00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:16.720
I stay on top of it.
00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:24.400
I know kind of what the themes are and what it should look like, but depending on who the audience is on TikTok, I might not be the messenger that I want to hear from it.
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:32.160
So sometimes being a good health communicator is acknowledging we need to find a messenger that is more trusted for our audience.
00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:36.000
Who are they gonna hear it from and receive it from and know how to use the platform?
00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:43.759
Because how I say something on TikTok is different than how I'm gonna say it on Instagram versus on a media interview for CNN, right?
00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:45.279
They're very different messages.
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:49.599
So you have to know how to talk across the different platforms or find somebody who can.
00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:54.880
I think this is a perfect segue into the second topic I want to discuss is common pitfalls.
00:17:55.039 --> 00:18:04.559
Are there other pitfalls in public health communication in the 21st century that you see a lot of public health people make that you would like them to stop and stop making those mistakes?
00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:14.240
Yeah, I'll start with this one because as the non-public health person in the room, I will say one of my biggest challenges is when people expect their data to speak for itself.
00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:16.720
And I know as scientists, you want that.
00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:26.240
I've heard researchers and scientists tell me it feels like I don't have a good case for my data if I have to explain it or if I have to provide that context.
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:27.920
They want it to speak for itself.
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:31.920
But as a communicator, it goes back to that audience issue.
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:42.480
And I would say that even data, you know, in your presentations, even if you're a conference, your data needs to speak for itself in the terms of your method, the actual analysis piece of it.
00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:47.119
But you still need to provide the context of why this is important.
00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:48.960
That isn't always clear.
00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:57.839
You could sit in a room with researchers who might even be in your same field but aren't in your specific area of study and might not know the nuances.
00:18:58.000 --> 00:18:59.599
You know, we're in injury prevention.
00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.839
That's got a bunch of different angles that you could really go super deep in.
00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:07.599
If you're in road safety, you might not know what's happening in drowning prevention.
00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:20.160
And so helping your audience understand the larger context, what's the system that this research is happening in, in my opinion, is where we go to with we're constantly asking this question of, so what?
00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:30.319
As somebody who works in injury prevention, you see data about, I remember early on, we had an exercise when I was being hired of write a press release about a certain number of injuries.
00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:34.240
And so it isn't just that these injuries are happening, it's why are they happening?
00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:35.279
How are they happening?
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:37.200
What are the mechanisms they're happening with?
00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:39.759
Helping people put into context, is this a lot?
00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:40.960
Is this a risk to me?
00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:44.799
How do I put this in this larger sense of risk that I already have?
00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:56.319
I really think that doing that for your audience no matter where you are, helping them understand why this data is going to be important to this larger conclusion that you're gonna make.
00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:00.079
That just really, I think, helps everybody know what to do with your data.
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:07.759
And then we can all go on that path with you to see, okay, yep, I can see why all of this is working and you know, I'm buying into your conclusion.
00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:10.400
We talk about finding the story in your data.
00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:14.799
And I just want to clarify for us, that doesn't mean telling a story about your data.
00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:17.359
It's what is the story your data is telling.
00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:18.000
Tracy?
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:20.000
I agree with everything Katrina said.
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:25.119
Another thing we see a lot from public health, what we call the fire hose approach.
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:31.759
We as public health people like to tell you every single thing we know about a topic all at once.
00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:36.000
And in today's attention economy, we don't have that time.
00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:40.880
People aren't going to listen to all of that, read all of that, drill down and look at all.
00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:47.599
In fact, sometimes they see, oh my gosh, there's so much information and they don't hear any of it because they completely shut down.
00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:52.880
So one of the things that we try and teach people is to really communicate about a topic.
00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:55.519
You have to really figure out what is your key message.
00:20:55.680 --> 00:21:06.319
If you don't remember anything else about what I'm about to tell you, remember this one thing and start there and keep your message tight, but give a link to more information if people want it.
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.400
For some people, a couple things is enough.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:09.440
Other people want more.
00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:10.240
Link out.
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:11.920
They can go find that somewhere else.
00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:13.839
That resonates in two ways.
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:18.640
One, Katrina, when you were talking about the so what, people need to understand why it's important.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:21.839
And then you wrapped up with the basically a now what?
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:23.039
What do we do with it?
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.599
Like you need to give people some direction in that.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:27.200
I think a lot of people miss that.
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:31.599
They focus so much on the what, they don't put that other context around it.
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:35.119
And Tracy, you reminded me of something my dad always said.
00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:44.079
He was in the army at the end of the Vietnam War, and he would always talk about how the military would they would tell you what they're gonna tell you, then they would tell you, and then they would tell you what they told you.
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:47.440
And it was a very clear message, and you got it three times.
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:50.400
Nobody was confused, you knew exactly what you needed to do.
00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:57.839
And it sounds a little bit funny, but like we need to be much more simple and concise in what we are communicating to people.
00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:04.640
We have all of this stuff banging around at our Heads, nobody is gonna understand the through line at the end if we tell them so many things.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:06.400
So I just plus one to all of that.
00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:09.920
It's great to hear you thinking about this and communicating it in that way.
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:20.400
There's one more kind of angle to that is I think sometimes when we sit down to create public health messages, we're like in our office thinking about a campaign.
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:25.680
And we create all of these messages while we're thinking about this topic.
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:33.200
And sometimes the messages come out and we forget, oh, wait, whoever is receiving that isn't also thinking all of these things.
00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:39.440
And so pieces get missed, or we're making assumptions that people know all these things and sometimes they don't.
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:46.559
So taking that step back and making sure whatever your message is and that it could be seen kind of alone.
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:50.559
Like if you're scrolling through Instagram, there's one post that you're gonna see, right?
00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:53.359
Are you capturing what you need to capture in that post?
00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:58.720
Kind of that idea of messaging needs to survive contact with real world.
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:04.000
We need to double check that and stop and look at all of our messages before we put them out into the world.
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:10.240
Katrina, you mentioned earlier your background is about turning something complex into something that people can understand.
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:13.039
And this is a question I've been dying to ask the two of you.
00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:15.759
Ethically speaking, where is that line?
00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:19.440
Like, how much simplification is too much simplification?
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:25.039
Like, is there a line between simplifying the nuances and misleading your audience?
00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:28.160
I do think simple words can be used to mislead.
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:42.240
For us, this is coming very much from a respect for an audience that isn't in it the way we are, but cares deeply about, again, in our field, it's all child injury prevention, which is an easier sell, you would think, in some cases, than some other stuff.
00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:44.319
But I think it's all about intent.
00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:58.480
Simplification is understanding what our audience actually needs from us and delivering that, stripping out, as we've talked about, all of this stuff that just doesn't matter to them because at the end of the day, especially we're doing child injury prevention.
00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:05.359
They don't need to know all of the nuances of why we ended up, maybe with some of the policies we did.
00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:18.160
But I think helping people understand the trade-offs of certain choices is how we can go about handling some of these things that no, we can't get into the nuance of everything.
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.960
We can't expect everybody to pay attention at the level that we're seeing these things.
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:31.839
But if we can respect our audiences and not infantilize them, I don't know if that's the right word here, but yeah, we're not saying treat them like children.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:36.559
It's not manipulative to say, listen, your time is valuable.
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:38.640
We know you're just trying to keep your kiddo safe.
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:39.759
This is a hazard.
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:41.359
You need to keep an eye on this.
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:44.960
And so I really do come down to what's the intent here.
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:49.599
For us, we actually think good communication is showing the ultimate respect for your audience.
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:54.240
It doesn't start with what we want to say, it starts with what our audience needs to hear and how they need to hear it.
00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:57.119
And so in many cases, that is more simple language.
00:24:57.279 --> 00:24:59.200
It doesn't mean dumbing it down.
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:03.599
It means explaining it in a way that your audience can use and understand.
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:08.000
And so I simply don't think those things exist on a continuum.
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:11.519
I think you can have simple truth and you can have complex lies.
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:19.200
If you can say it simply and share what the audience actually needs to hear, then we're actually going to, I think, increase our trust as well.
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:26.240
What are some public health communication professionals' tools when you come across disinformation or misinformation?
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.000
Like how have you guys dealt with it?
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:33.839
So one thing that we've really looked at is there's a little bit of research out there on something called a truth sandwich.
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:38.079
The research suggests actually it doesn't even need to be specifically this format.
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:52.079
The idea, though, it goes back to what Cass was talking about with the repetition, is the idea that when we focus on refuting, we're adopting the framework of that miss or disinformation and working in that framework, we're refuting something.
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:53.839
We're not affirming what we believe.
00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:57.759
And so the idea of this of the truth sandwich is you start with the truth.
00:25:57.920 --> 00:25:59.119
This is what's true.
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:05.359
Then you say, I understand that people believe this, you address the misinformation or disinformation.
00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:08.400
Like I heard this being said, that's not correct though.
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:09.279
This is the truth.
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:11.759
So truth, mis and disinfo, truth.
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:14.480
Now, they did some research to vary that up.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:17.839
And I think you can actually go disinfo, truth, truth.
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:23.920
I it just matters that again, you're getting that truth out there more times than the disinformation.
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:26.400
So that is one way to combat it.
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:28.880
It's not necessarily, though, going to be effective.
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:31.920
We've talked about those credible messengers at times.
00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:41.200
That's really one thing that we're struggling with is that how do we find credible messengers for the people that are receiving this and disinformation?
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:47.119
Again, misinformation is one we can kind of correct on the record, you know, maybe reach that and correct that information.
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.279
Disinformation is a lot harder to tackle, though.
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:55.039
And another tool that we use that kind of builds on that is going back to the audience.
00:26:55.279 --> 00:27:04.799
People want to feel heard, they want to feel seen, and they, in our case, want to protect their children if we're doing injury prevention, child injury prevention.
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:16.960
So when we look at the mis or disinformation, it is important for us to think about why they are having that reaction or why is this information being shared?
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:24.319
Sometimes it's because they don't come from the same background as we do, or they're hearing things in different silos.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:30.240
And so it's taking that step of what is it that caught their attention about this information?
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:38.240
And how can we communicate in a way where we understand why that's happening and acknowledge we hear you?
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:45.119
Here's our understanding of it, and here's how what we're saying can help in your situation, right?
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:57.519
It's that communicating with humility, empathy, care, seeing them where they are and not just going against them, but trying to understand your audience and figure out how to communicate in a way that they can hear it and understand.
00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:12.799
That can be really challenging, especially for some of our trainees or early career folks, because they may interpret what you're saying as I need to agree or I need to sort of understand where people are coming from to be able to talk with them.
00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:21.039
And you don't need to agree with people to have empathy and understand for whatever reason, they may come from a different perspective.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:25.920
And if you only ever talk to people who think exactly like you do, we're not going to make change, right?
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:29.440
We make change by having conversations with people who think differently.
00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:34.960
And a key to crafting effective counterarguments is understanding somebody else's perspective.
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:39.920
You don't need to agree, but you at least need to understand that they don't think about something the way that you do.
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:49.759
And I think that's a real difficult skill that is super important for people to learn if they're operating in the space where they're trying to communicate about research.
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:59.920
What I have found is that it seems like people have a hard time understanding that you can explain all of the variables, give them all of the education, and that people will still make a different choice.
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:12.960
And that is tough for those of us that feel strongly about what the right choice might be or what the healthiest choice is going to be, or but what is best for me isn't necessarily in accordance with somebody else's life and values.
00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:20.400
And so that's one thing that I know I still struggle with the idea that I can still give you all of the information and you still might make a different choice.
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:23.519
That's definitely a perennial public health struggle.
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:31.759
Empathy piece is so important because I don't think there's anyone out there who, when confronted aggressively, they go, Oh wow, you make an excellent point.
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:32.960
Let me change how I behave.
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:33.200
Right.
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:39.839
So having that empathy of like, I see where you're coming from is so important because you can't change people's minds by being compatible.
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:40.960
That never happens.
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:44.000
Knowing your audience, I think, is also comes back again.
00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:48.480
Like, we're trying to move the people for lack of a better term, like in the middle.
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:51.279
There are people who will never listen to you.
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:58.240
And it's, in my opinion, almost kind of like pointless to direct messaging towards the group of people who you know will never listen to you.
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:03.119
And knowing that you're not trying to reach everyone, you're trying to reach to people willing to listen.
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:05.839
That's one of the pitfalls I see a lot of public health folks.
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:11.119
They're doing their cone is so broad that the message is ineffective for everyone at the end of the day.
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:16.160
I hear you, and I completely agree that there are people who will never agree.
00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:17.839
I work in the space of gun policy.
00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:19.920
There are people who will never agree with me.
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:23.279
I don't agree that we shouldn't try to talk to them.
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:29.119
Having one broad message where we're expecting everybody to buy in is not going to be effective.
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:46.799
But that's where some of the things that Tracy was saying at the beginning about knowing your audience, tailoring the message to who you're trying to reach, a message to somebody who I don't think will ever agree with me on gun policy is going to be very different than somebody who's receptive or somebody who agrees with what I think are the most effective policies.
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:49.119
It is about meeting people where they are.
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:51.599
I think that's sort of the key theme throughout this.
00:30:52.000 --> 00:31:00.720
You would be surprised not to talk too much about the work that I do, but we have been working forever in Virginia to try to get gun safety policies passed.
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:03.599
And people kept telling us you're never going to make progress in Virginia.
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:04.880
Don't bother, don't bother.
00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:16.559
It took us 12 years to start having really meaningful conversations and another six years to actually get policies passed, but we got there because we had messages tailored to people that we thought would never agree with us.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:21.039
And it turns out if you say stuff enough times, somebody eventually might listen.
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:25.599
So that was because of very thoughtful, tailored, and empathetic approach.
00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:28.480
And that's sort of the point I think we're all trying to make just in different ways.
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:37.759
We talked a lot about the challenges and some of the negative aspect of public health communication in the 21st century, but I want to end on a slightly positive note.
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:41.200
I think wherever there are challenges, there are also opportunities.
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:48.559
So I would love to hear what you think is something that we can do now that we perhaps we couldn't do maybe just a few years ago.
00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:51.200
What are the positive of today's media landscape?
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:52.559
Or let's try to dig deep.
00:31:52.799 --> 00:32:08.240
One of the things I think is really positive is we have an opportunity to reach niche audiences with messages that are culturally competent, that they can hear, that start with what is their background, what are their challenges?
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:13.599
And we can do that in a way it's kind of that personalized medicine concept that we could never do before.
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:24.960
When we could only reach them on ABC, NBC, or CBS, you had to make your message so broad, as you said, MJ, sometimes it's so broad it doesn't hit for anybody.
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:31.359
And now we can personalize it in a way that addresses them and who they are, lets them feel heard and seen.
00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:36.240
And I know I personally like to think of public health communication as kind of a great equalizer.
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:49.200
And when I first started here, you know, Tracy's origin story is all about how she started at SERP and found out all the ways she could have killed her kid that she didn't know because it was stuck in a journal behind a paywall.
00:32:49.519 --> 00:33:03.440
You know, that's what I think is the best part about doing this type of work is that we get to take all of this stuff that nobody was gonna see 20 years ago because it was printed in paper journals and nobody's it all stayed buried before.
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:07.759
And now we can move information out faster than ever.
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:14.160
It used to be the translational time between publication to kind of effective adoption and practice was about 17 years.
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:16.000
I believe it was a long time.
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:20.640
And so we now can take information, again, we're in child injury.
00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:25.680
Stuff is hitting the market all the time about things that are going to be threatening to kids.
00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:27.680
But we now can see this coming.
00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:30.960
We don't have to wait on a published study all the time.
00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:35.359
Yes, we need it for certain pieces of data, but we know those kids are hitting those ERs.
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:40.079
We're able to raise these issues faster and respond to them.
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:52.319
And so I really love the opportunity to get in front of some of the things that in the past we would have had to wait 10 years and get that data and then then be able to get to work on that problem.
00:33:52.480 --> 00:34:06.720
So I just think about, you know, in our work, about all the kids that maybe because of an Instagram post or a news story or something that they've seen from our office, maybe kept that kiddo out of an ER or kept some family a little safer.
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:13.840
That to me is the most exciting part is this is information that is accessible and can be accessible if we make it accessible.
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:17.360
And so that's what I think is most exciting about having these avenues.
00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:21.039
Thank you for listening to this special episode of Everything is Public Health.
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:24.880
A special thank to our guests, Tracy and Katrina from Communication Breakdown Podcast.
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:26.639
Their links are in the episode description below.
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:31.119
If you like the show, the best thing you can do to help us is by telling everyone you know about the show.
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:33.360
Please rate, review, and leave a comment about the show.
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:34.719
That helps us a bunch as well.
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:41.199
If you have any questions or think we missed an important perspective, you can email us at everything ispublichealth at gmail.com.
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:47.039
For more information about the show, as well as bonus materials, please visit our website at everything ispublichealth.com.
00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:49.199
And remember, everything is public health.
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:51.519
Everything is public health.
