Jerry:
0:15 Welcome to today's episode of Enduring the Badge podcast. I'm your host, jerry Dean Lund, and if you haven't already done so, please take out your phone and hit that subscribe button. I don't want you to miss an upcoming episode. And hey, while your phone's out, please give us a rating and review. On whichever platform you listen to this podcast on, such as iTunes, apple Podcasts and Spotify, it helps this podcast grow and the reason why, when this gets positive ratings and reviews, those platforms like Apple Podcasts and Spotify show this to other people that never listened to this podcast before, and that allows our podcast to grow and make more of an impact on other people's lives. So if you would do that, I would appreciate that from the bottom of my heart. My very special guest today is Don Bradley. How are you doing, don?
Donn:
0:56 I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on.
Jerry:
0:58 Yeah, thanks for being on. Don introduce yourself to the audience.
Donn:
1:02 My name is Don Bradley and I am a former police officer with the city of Hayward in Northern California and I'm now a therapist who works with first responders, complex trauma, ptsd, military personnel, basically just all the really rough stuff. People that you that don't want to see a therapist, they're the one. They come and see me.
Jerry:
1:24 Why did? Why did they want to come and see you? What's the difference?
Donn:
1:27 Well, because you know. You know how bad the stigma is, you know how, how, how thick it is out there and and and it's still very, very thick. So when I get people that are forced to come in, either their significant others make them come in, or the court makes them come in, or whatever, or they just get so so burnt out and fed up and container full that they're like it's either this or I'm going to take my own life, and I mean it's, it's gotten that bad. I hear an above average level of, you know, suicidal talk and stuff.
Jerry:
2:02 So they come to you because they can relate to you.
Donn:
2:06 Basically I'm kind of the no-nonsense guy. See, I did the whole anti-terrorism thing before. So I did terrorism liaison, crime scene tech and stuff like that. No-transcript, let's get to it. Because they don't like the touchy, feely patch on the head tell you everything's going to be all right stuff. They just like to, they like to get right into it. So people seem to resonate with that.
Jerry:
2:48 Yeah, I mean I, I think that's that's true, right, you know you don't. If you're there, I really think you probably should be doing the work. I mean, you've made the big step of coming, so I think you need to have that kind of no nonsense to maybe pull them out, right Out of their, their mindset, maybe that they're in, that they're being shut down.
Donn:
3:08 Well, my whole spiel comes from the idea that there's a sort of acknowledgement that you have to start that Like you have to. You know, I got this, this, this thing right here. Well, you can see it behind me here and I call it. Four is greater than two. The new mission, right, cause we always like to use that tactical language.
Jerry:
3:27 That's right.
Donn:
3:28 And they and they like to have that cool new tool on their belt and stuff like that. So I'm just I'm kind of doing it in a funny sort of sneak past your defenses way, but the long and short of it is that you have to give yourself permission to actually act on your own behalf because you can't just come in. There's an intellectual part and an emotional part. You can intellectually know that you have to do it, but you have to give yourself permission for the emotional part to do it. The fear, the anger, all that stuff that you, that society, said you can't let out of this container, you have to let out the container.
Jerry:
4:01 Is there a way that you have to open them up to do that?
Donn:
4:05 Well, I use a lot of analogy and metaphor to be able to get people to if they can get the picture inside of their head, and I sort of stack the lesson next to the picture. Every time they think of the picture they'll think of the lesson. So it's, it's very. You know, I come from Neanderthal ilk, right, I was.
Donn:
4:24 I was raised in the Midwest, you know, uh, everybody but us. You know Bible of the or sorry, buckle of the Bible belt. You know Southern Baptist, everybody but us is going to hell type of deal, right. And so when that whole rub some dirt on a pussy stuff was real thick, you know you didn't cry, they didn't let you do that stuff. Yeah, it was weakness, you know. You know the whole drill, right, right. And so when I was in the Midwest and Oklahoma and then traveled out to California, got to California, became a police officer and it just got, and it just got drilled in there so, so deep. And you know it's not until you, you, we prepare our whole entire life for that battle that comes from the outside in, but we don't do any preparation for the one that comes from the inside out, right.
Jerry:
5:09 So I totally agree. I've been thinking about this a lot and I'm like you know, our brain does all these crazy things to keep us safe, you know. And then I'm thinking but does it really like it does?
Donn:
5:20 bad things to create to keep us safe too. That's the, that's the part we don't understand yeah, can you go into that? Yeah, well so we'll, we'll, we create defense mechanisms based on the resources that we have available to us, right it's. And and if emotional resource is not what we have available to us, then we're going to create a defense mechanism. In fact, do you mind if I just kind of go into the spiel a little bit?
Jerry:
5:44 so I can kind of make sense of it.
Donn:
5:46 Yeah, so what you see behind me here is my little. Four is greater than two. The new mission, right? Because there's three things that have to happen in order for change to actually occur. It sounds really super obvious, but it's not, as that. It's a little bit more insidious than people realize. You got to acknowledge that something's going on, right. If you've been depressed for 20 years, it's not who you are. You've been depressed for 20 years. Lean into it, right. You got to accept the level to which that thing is negatively affecting your life, right? I only drink a little bit. Yeah, everybody else in your, in your whole life thinks you're an alcoholic, but until it changes in you, it's not going to change right, yeah and that's the third part, that that whole, the new mission.
Donn:
6:28 Right, you gotta, you gotta give yourself permission to actually act on your own behalf. It sounds, I know, it sounds kind of obvious, but the whole point is that we've got these basic tenets. If you're standing on this grain of sand that's hurtling through space right now, this applies to you, it applies to you, it applies to me, it applies to everybody whose container is full, everybody whose container is empty. It applies to everybody, because it applies to that thing that you are before you're anything else. Man, woman, living on the other side of the planet doesn't matter. You're a human being first, and you need to be reminded of that constantly, because that basic level of humanity is the thing that was sort of put into your brain to protect yourself.
Donn:
7:12 Say this is your brain, right here, see my thumb here. This is that first little peanut that grows up, that fight, flight, fan or freeze thing. Right, yeah, I speak about this in a very non-scientific, uh, bubble-headed way, because that's that's where I came from and I know that I gotta, I gotta speak to that in that way. But this fight, flight, fan or freeze thing, that's that first little thing, you know, the amygdala that grows up back there that's responsible for your survival, right, and then you get older and your brain starts to develop. You get higher functions, logic, reasoning, stuff like that tucked way deep into the core of this thing is fight, flight, fan or freeze.
Donn:
7:49 The reason that swat, military and everybody you know, professional athletes, stuff like that, train over and over and over again is because when, when this thing turns on, this is the shit going down. The reason they put a survival script in here because this isn't where our brain is, this is where our reaction is right. That fight thing, yeah, it's not meant to think. This doesn't have eyeballs, it doesn't have ears, it's that tunnel vision, all that stuff, right, and it's. It's it's 10 of the big part of your brain, if it's anything, and it's only meant to react. But if you see, you know people in couples and they it's like husband, wife or whatever one person goes into their brain. Next thing, you know you're not communicating anymore and this is two rams on a hillside Right, rams on a hillside right, yeah, yeah, so so the idea is that when this thing turns on, its only goal is to be turned off. It's a, it's a like a threat, and you and you're trying to release or remove the threat so that you can bring your mainframe back online, right?
Donn:
8:51 yeah there's not like an alarm that goes off. It says your wife is going to be a bitch in five, four, three, two. She's going to say something about your manhood in five, four you know it just all of a sudden turns on and you're in it and you're not.
Donn:
9:04 You're not like going. Oh, what's this new land? I'm in, no it. It sneaks up on you and and guts you before you even know what you're doing. Right Cause, how many times have you ever gotten really super mad, done something stupid and went oh, what did I do that for? That's this portion of your brain casting judgment on this portion of your brain for doing the only thing it knows how to do, and it does it conveniently. When it comes back online it goes oh, I can't believe I did that stupid thing. It's like well, I can believe it because we're kind of dopey. When we are in survival mode we're going to put whatever resources available to us to enlist to try to survive. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. Make sense.
Jerry:
9:48 Yeah, I think most of the time it feels like it's bad in everyday life.
Donn:
9:55 But think about it in everyday life. Do you, do you practice your responses, your emergency responses for emotions? No, because you avoid them. It becomes an atrophied muscle.
Jerry:
10:08 Yeah, right, yeah.
Donn:
10:09 And so it makes sense that we're we're kind of like I'm not sure how to how to react in this situation, so I'm going to react in a way that's going to going to maintain my survival. Doesn't always do that Right, especially when it comes to, like relationship survival.
Jerry:
10:25 Yeah, do you see in first responders that the main reaction is anger?
Donn:
10:30 Anger is the medium with which people who are hurt and afraid actually sort of express themselves. Right? Because and I'll go into this a little farther I'm assuming you've been to like a county fair, right? So what do you think of whenever you go to a county fair, Like, what's the imagery that you see whenever you're at a county fair?
Jerry:
10:52 A diverse group of people.
Donn:
10:53 Sure, you take a big deep breath. What do you smell? Yeah, food galore Tunnel.
Jerry:
10:56 You take a big deep breath. What do you smell? Yeah, food, galore, funnel cakes, corn dogs, ferris wheels, all kinds of stuff like that. Yeah.
Donn:
11:01 You know those, those water guns where the horses are racing each other yeah. Yeah, right. So imagine every human being on the planet, everybody. They all have four horses and that four, those four horses, pull their team for their life. Right, physical horse? Right. That's your physical identity. If you're like a big strapping dude or a tiny person, if you're in a gym, bro, or you're sick, all the time, it's your physical identity and how important it is to you right.
Donn:
11:28 Then there's your intellectual identity Book smart versus street smart, somewhere in between Social identity loner cool kid in the group somewhere in between Emotional identity. Well, I'm speaking on behalf of myself. This one, we're told, just goes back to the gate. We're not allowed to use it, we just weld the gate shut. And these three are the ones where we develop our coping mechanisms when things get physically hard.
Donn:
11:54 What do we do? We fight, we work out, we work overtime to death right Intellectually. What do we do? How many cops you know that can solve everybody else's problem but their own right? I'm like really good, I'm a take charge guy, right.
Jerry:
12:11 Yeah, yeah, it's yeah yeah. I'll just laugh and leave it at that.
Donn:
12:15 Well, so what do we do socially? We go, we have choir practice, we drink. We we're sitting here with the stuff boiling inside of us, we're drinking and we're looking at our partners and we're going, wow, that call, that last call, was pretty crazy, huh. And the other guy's like, yeah, whatever. And so I look at him. I don't see anything wrong with him, but I'm wondering, gosh, that boiling in my gut. It must've been, it must be because there's something wrong with me If it didn't bother him is. I didn't ask him if it bothered him, I just looked at him and said I, you know, throughout that line, found out that he didn't wasn't affected by it. He was but yeah.
Donn:
12:52 Right, but we, we develop that internal message that there's something wrong with us if that feeling in our gut doesn't match up what we're seeing over here. Right, right, but what we don't realize is that these three become bullies. Right, they become bullies. They want to make sure that any problem that comes up in your life is taken care of here and not here. Well, mind you, this whole time we're stacking up stuff in that emotional category, just going. We can't put any color in the painting because the color is what makes it. We can't, we just can't. You can't go into every life-changing, terrible, worst situation for a person ever and feel emotions, because it would overwhelm us.
Donn:
13:37 Right, right, so we just got to turn it off. Okay, well, we get really good at it, but we don't get rid of it. We just stack it up in here like a Mount Everest pile of shit, right, yeah. And when we got space in the container, it's okay. But then we don't, we don't tend to it. It just starts stacking up, stacking up, stacking up. Pretty soon, you know, to see that slip of paper fall down onto the top of that pile.
Donn:
14:01 Comes and it kicks that gate open with that emotional horse. Well, that emotional horse is like a. It's like a, it's like a baby horse, and I don't know if you've ever seen a baby horse being born. It's like it's walking on stilts right, yeah.
Donn:
14:11 Okay, it can't hold its own weight, much less the weight of an entire lifetime of ignoring it, and so it goes oh no, screw that, I can't. I can't do that. That's why these guys, you know and it breaks my heart to say this, I don't do so cavalierly, but I've got to lean into it why these guys are taking their lives is because they're going through all these different things and going well, I got nothing left right, they don't even consider this an option. Because they need, because and this is what it is you have to give yourself permission to let this guy out, because here's the deal he's going to be afraid, he's going to not be good at it automatically, and first responders, military folks, they're like take charge, right, they got to be in control of the situation, and this is a situation that you're not in control of.
Donn:
14:57 It's sort of like this is this massive, scary thing, that that's. And when you come into it, it's like a child. And that's not to insult anybody, it's just to say that that's what you had to do in order to survive the situation that you were in. And a lot of these, a lot of these folks have, you know, really, uh, lengthy traumatic pasts. That don't you know, and so and so you're never really learning how to do it. And by the time you know, imagine a 75 year old man, professional, best businessman in the world, who never learned how to ride a bike.
Donn:
15:33 So he's got the helmet on, he's got the things on here and he looks like a complete fool, right? Well, nobody wants to put themselves in a situation to look like a fool when they've already established themselves as a professional right yeah. So the idea of getting into that vulnerability, the v word and and and having fear and saying it's okay to be, uh, to be afraid, in the situation he's none of these guys want to do that and he's guys, gals, it happens across the board, doesn't?
Donn:
16:01 matter right and so and so they, they just and these three, like I said, they're bullies. They're the ones that are basically saying so. Imagine you heard something that I said today. You, you're like, hmm, I never really thought about it like that. And then tomorrow you wake up and you're like really super depressed or maybe a little angry. Well, that's these three horses going. How dare you? You should be ashamed of yourself. We've been taking care of you your whole entire life. Now you're going to let this guy out. You, there must be something wrong with you. No, it's everything coming at you at the same time telling you you know, you can't talk to these folks as you, you did this and you've accomplished this and you do all this kind of stuff. And it's like, well, if, if you don't exercise that muscle, then you can't be surprised when you go to put weight on it and it's not there for it.
Jerry:
16:48 Yeah, no, I like the analogy. I think it's really good. I think it's definitely something that people can relate to and remember when they're when they're thinking about it.
Donn:
16:58 Well, and that's the idea, right, You're just trying to remember in that time that here's the thing when this thing is on, your only goal is to turn it off. It's not to make assessments about your future, about your relationship or anything like that. This is the zebra by the watering hole drinking water looking up, seeing the gator come up to get him and just going boop. You don't ever see the zebra going, hey, let's talk about this as they're running away, Right. So you gotta, you gotta realize that when you're in that mode, the only thing you need to know is oh, I'm in that mode, you need to turn it off, Right. Then, when the mainframe comes back online, then you can go all right. Well, that was pretty, pretty, pretty scary, but I recognize the difference between that switch being on and off and when you don't know that you'll do a lot of really stupid shit yeah, well, how do you get to the point of knowing that of like, well, you?
Donn:
17:49 you have to. You have to be intentional, and I hate to, I hate to, I really don't like the cliche stuff, right, but you do have to, you. Well, the reason I wear this is to remind myself of that very sort of oh duh, yes, I do need to remember I'm a human being, right, and that's the idea is that you'll you get it. You attack it on the other side, you do your best to try to get it in advance and keep it from turning on, but your initial reaction is to try to go oh right, this is not the brain that I want representing me. What do I got to do? Okay, well, I need to breathe, right, because breathing is the first thing you got to do. You do your tactical breathing right. Yeah, four seconds in four second, hold four second, exhale four second, or you know what I mean? Yeah, and so it's.
Donn:
18:38 It's it's realizing that that's the first thing you did when you were alive, was you breathed Right, and so this is going. Oh, okay, this is on Right, cause you see these guys in these these life and death situations just absolutely going off the charts. It's like, yeah, right, and everybody, you, you always start with breathing, because if you're not breathing properly, then your heart rate's going to be up there and you're trying to basically match the respiration rate of the person that you want to be, not the person that you are. Right, yeah, you're basically trying to just get to the spot where you're going. Okay, because that's all.
Jerry:
19:17 All you need to remember is if I, if this, then this, okay is there like so, creating that like that self-aware awareness of being in that state, right? Is there like? Is there some tips you give people other than like, hey, you're breathing like if you notice your breathing is up, then you know you're in this state.
Donn:
19:42 Well, you're, you're trying to, you're trying to basically make sure that you understand that if you're in that state, that that you are, that that emotions are happening sort of without your, without your knowledge and approval right, it doesn't schedule a time, doesn't ask for permission and nothing like that.
Donn:
20:02 So it's just about going okay, and an emotion is occurring and you know, knowing how you react, knowing what your, what your mechanism is, and going okay. Well, what do I need to do? Well, whatever's causing this, I need to get away from it right now. I need to de-ass the area, right? Yeah, that way I can kind of walk around, pace around, do whatever you got to do, breathe and then go all right, how am I doing now?
Donn:
20:29 Well, my heart rate's still 160, so I'm probably going to chill out for a little bit, punch a punching bag and put a little gap in there long enough for that mainframe to come back online. And put a little gap in there long enough for that mainframe to come back online, because all you're really trying to do is to create that one little sort of memory device, that one little key chain thing, one little thing that's going to remind me oh right, when I'm upset this is not the place that I want to have represent how the rest of everything's going to go. That's why these shooting situations are so volatile is because this is on. This is what's being represented.
Jerry:
21:02 Everybody's trying to survive.
Donn:
21:03 Understandably, so Right.
Jerry:
21:05 Yeah, it's like the emotional cycle is in that, like 20 minutes, like the emotion.
Donn:
21:12 It's at least right and all you're really trying to do is you're not. Would we like to be perfect and see it coming? Yeah, sure, sure.
Jerry:
21:19 But do you?
Donn:
21:20 have a crystal ball? You don't right. Do you have a time machine? Nope. And can you read minds? No, you can't. The problem with with first responders is that they have to sort of insert themselves in that way, and this got to find the thing that's coming and see where the thing is and try to react and do all this kind of stuff and it it doesn't. It works when you're using the intellectual part of your brain. It doesn't work when you're using the emotional part of your brain.
Jerry:
21:48 Yeah, I mean, I think there's sometimes you kind of can have a crystal ball, maybe in a way. Right Is like I haven't slept well for several days, so I know myself when I'm like that I'm going to get snappy and that's true.
Donn:
22:04 Yes, you can prepare for. You can prepare for that type of thing. But when I talk about the whole crystal ball thing, the idea that you can predict. Like you, you're already predicting what that future thing is, and your and your body is already predicting what that future thing is, and your and your body is already reacting to that future thing when the future thing hasn't happened yeah, right, yeah because it doesn't like I said, it doesn't have eyeballs or ears or anything like that.
Donn:
22:27 It just basically takes your conscious brain and says what? There's a threat, okay.
Jerry:
22:30 Well then, turn it on yeah, I, I just some just baffled this lately, I don't know why. I just like, how are like minds, like it's not really keeping me safe, it's just really just winding you up right, it seems like wound, like wind people up right there. It's always goes to the like the, the worst case scenarios instead of like instead of catching yourself and going like that.
Donn:
22:57 The problem is that that that mechanism worked somewhere yeah right, but we. But when we employ it every single time, we get really good at it. And you know you've heard the term that when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail right yeah, well, when you, when you're, when you react that way so many times, when it's, even when it's not merited, that's the way you're going to react, right, right. And so what does that number stay over my shoulder there?
Jerry:
23:24 The four of the two.
Donn:
23:25 Four is greater than two right. Mathematically that is 100% correct right, yeah yeah, okay. So if you think about the first responder community, obviously it can be very socially challenging. You know what I mean. Yes, because some of the best friends I had were some of the most brutal back and forth. You know the way they showed you that they loved you was by making fun of you.
Jerry:
23:51 Right, right, right. You know if you've seen?
Donn:
23:52 this thing, this head's pretty big and I've got a lot of you know, I've got a lot of friends that. I got a lot of friends that, uh, you know, talk shit about the size of my head, but that just shows that they love you, right.
Donn:
24:04 Well, when you, when you get to the spot where your container's full and you're looking around and your whole entire life's been well, I can't. I can't feel emotions, I can't deal with this stuff and you're so, you're kind of protecting it, and it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger. You got to, you got to realize that that when you get up to the cruising altitude of your life and the container gets full, that you are going to have to do something about it, something's going to have to change. Well, in that community that's tough, because you already know what the stigma is about. You already know how you've dealt with the people and everybody knows who you are and how you're dealing and stuff like that. So, and everybody knows who you are and how you're dealing and stuff like that. So, to put out there this thing that makes you feel weak is like you're, like I don't want to do that, right. And sometimes when you say something like that, your partners and everybody who are used to you being this way will get really uncomfortable, right.
Donn:
24:58 Yeah sure, and their uncomfortability isn't because you're doing something wrong. It's because they're uncomfortable in your change, right.
Jerry:
25:05 Yeah.
Donn:
25:06 But you have to do something about it. You have to say I've got to do something different because what is happening now isn't working. And I'm just putting stuff in and I'm not taking stuff out, right, but you have to remember that you're doing it for yourself, not to them, right? And so this, there's this. If you think about, if you think about physical, intellectual, social, emotional, right. Physically, you remember the first time you worked out. Are you still holding onto a dumbbell from the first time you worked out? No, no, why not? Because at the time you told yourself I'm going to put it down, I'll try back again tomorrow, I'll get some rest, try back again tomorrow and start over.
Jerry:
25:46 Right yeah.
Donn:
25:47 Emotional. We don't do that. We just put it in there and just go. That's, that's where it's going to stay. And then you wonder why this weight, after you keep adding to it and adding to it, and adding to it and never giving yourself permission to let it go that eventually it crushes you.
Jerry:
26:01 It's like so duh right, yeah, yeah, I mean we, we should know better by now.
Donn:
26:12 Well, you know it's funny. So on the inside of this bracelet right here, it's the word list. It's the anti me word list could, should, always, never, but I don't know, supposed to expectations. And so, basically, when I ask you, do you have a crystal ball? Okay, that means you can't see into the future. Do you have a time machine? Okay, that means that you can't go back into the past and change anything that's already happened. Mistakes are your mistakes, that's it. You can't. The only thing you can change is the way you think about it. And if you can't read minds, then because what's happening is we're, we're telling ourselves it could have you know at at this incident that happened, I could have done this, should have done this, right. Or when you think, always and never, they're the absolutes, they're the ones that basically go. I've already decided how I'm going to think about this, because she's always like that or he's never going to do that.
Donn:
27:04 Right, yeah, and so it's. Our language tells us about how we think without it, without us thinking Right, and so it kind of ties back down to this idea that things could have been different, should have been different yeah, I think words are powerful.
Jerry:
27:20 I think how we, how we use them, and I always and I catch myself a lot using some of those words always never, you know and then I'm like that's not really true.
Donn:
27:32 I mean well, if you really want to want it to be different, whatever that thing is, you want to be different. You have to accept that there might be part of it that you, that that you may not be able to say, well, I'm going to take the reins of this and change it. It's like, well, you're you, if you want to learn how to do something, would you be taught by somebody else? I mean, it's kind of the idea and just getting past yourself to get to the point of teaching, to get to the point of what do you mean? I got to be afraid in this process. No, I can't do this. Right, you have to give yourself permission to do that.
Donn:
28:06 That's tough. It's the toughest part that's about. My whole spiel is about getting started, why you show up, why you participate, why you're worth it, why your family's worth it, why you're not protecting anybody by stuffing all this crap down. Right, you're not, you're not. It's not protecting people. You're just afraid to let it go because you're afraid you won't be able to put it back in the container right and I don't have time.
Jerry:
28:31 I don't have time.
Donn:
28:31 That's, that's a classic. Yeah, but I don't.
Donn:
28:33 But I don't have time not to yeah, right, like I don't have time to open up this container and deal with it well, because, well, the problem with that is that you, that anybody that says that, assumes that they already know how the process is going to go. Like it's going to be this. I just I'm going to unpack it and not know how to pack. Well, you didn't know how to do it before, so you have to accept that there's going to be a new in a new terrain. There's going to be places where you stumble and fall and get back up and get hurt and stuff like that, and you have to say, well, I'm going to do it anyway because I need to get to other. So have you ever seen anybody jumped to the top of Mount Everest?
Donn:
29:08 No, no, small steps and a guide right, you've got to be able to say give yourself permission to take the small steps, to use a guide if you if needed to, to make sure that you're not trying to do it all at once, because if you look at the top of Mount Everest, you're going to be like, oh, it's too big, I can't do it. You just automatically do it Right, and you're right. You may not be able to do it all at once, but when you go into the gym, do you lift all the weight in the first exercise?
Jerry:
29:37 No, that's a physical thing. It's not a physical thing, it's not a mental thing, right well, but that's. But that's.
Donn:
29:40 The idea is that if you're trying to do that all at once, then you're going to be overwhelmed.
Jerry:
29:45 But yeah, yeah right.
Donn:
29:46 That's why you need a guide exactly somebody who's been been to the top and the other side before you right, yeah, yeah, and they can just makes it things right a little easier.
Jerry:
29:59 I, I think you know when you, when you have a guide, no matter what you're, when you, when you have a guide, no matter what you're doing, really, I mean, if you have a guide or something that can teach you or help.
Donn:
30:05 I think you gotta be in a spot where you where you, where you know that the person is not going to judge you because you're already judging you Right, right, and so it's.
Donn:
30:17 It's a, it's a real fine line to walk, to be able to be in a room with somebody that doesn't want to have anything to do with you because they don't want to have anything to do with the process. They've already decided that, right, yeah. And so convincing somebody just to get past that first part, where the work starts Is, is the key. It's the key because once, once that, once you get past that and you kind of allow yourself to engage in a process that will, will walk down that path, there's a lot of people that can help you, but there's not a lot of good, culturally competent people out there that that kind of do this because they're, you know, it's more for them, it's more of a performance, right?
Jerry:
30:54 Yeah.
Donn:
30:55 And if anybody can sniff out a performance, it's the first one.
Jerry:
31:06 That's true, that's true's true. I mean, yes, being culturally competent is a huge, huge deal. I mean you hear all the horror stories you know right, they could go on and tell all about the horror stories of people have gone to somebody's not culturally competent and they've had disastrous, you know, encounters. I'm sure there's been some that have been great and some people you know may, may like to have their therapist cry with them.
Donn:
31:26 More the exception than the rule, to be sure.
Jerry:
31:28 Yeah.
Donn:
31:28 Yeah.
Jerry:
31:29 So when I went through school.
Donn:
31:31 It was uh, you have to understand, I'm in the most liberal state, in the most uh now in the most literally the other side of the spectrum, uh, sort of emotionally from where I was at Right, yeah, yeah, and so coming in as a literally the other side of the spectrum, sort of emotionally from where I was at, right, yeah, yeah.
Donn:
31:45 And so, coming in as a middle-aged white male who represents law enforcement, heterosexual white male who represents law enforcement in a liberal profession, like a ludicrously liberal profession, I was the devil. Right, I was the devil and I didn't know devil. Right, I was the devil before, but I and I didn't know that. Right. And that was the tough part is like my whole desire to get into police work was just to help people and not be bored, you know. And then when I got in there, I was like I just want to help people but I didn't realize that there was this mass of hatred that already existed, just because of who I was.
Jerry:
32:19 Right.
Donn:
32:20 Yeah, and so, ironically, I was in this cultural competence class where they were, where we were, that I roll my eyes every time I think about this, but they actually absolutely crushed me and I was like, oh, I didn't expect that. I was prepared for every other battle other than the one where people were like we don't care how you defend yourself, you're, you're a racist, you're a sexist, you're this, and just, they just tore me to shreds, right, and it really, really affected my thoughts on you know whether there are good, solid, you know culturally competent therapists out there to help folks, because I was like, well, it applies to every other culture other than the one that I represent and I felt kind of bad about that applies to every other culture other than the one that I represent and I felt kind of bad about that.
Jerry:
33:04 Yeah, I can imagine being in that situation and being you know where you're at currently is.
Donn:
33:09 I won't do it twice.
Jerry:
33:10 Yeah, yeah, don. How can people like reach out to you or follow you and see what you're doing?
Donn:
33:20 Well, so I? I don't encourage anybody to reach out to me but, to be perfectly honest, I'm not trying to advertise myself. This is about the message. I'm just trying to make sure that the people that need help get help. I don't have a real strong marketing campaign, other than the fact that if I could give everybody one of these and they knew what it represented, that I'd just pass them out.
Donn:
33:41 But for the most part, if you go onto psychology today and you look up Don with two N's last Bradley, you'll you'll find me on there and be able to get ahold of me. Like I said, I'm not, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to generate business and I not saying I'm not turning anybody away. Yeah, I just want, I just want folks to know that that it is about the message, not the messenger.
Jerry:
34:00 That it is about the message, not the messenger. Yeah Well, and I mean, it's like if people are listening to this and they write some people, are I always the thirds right? Some people will like you, some people won't, some people don't care, you know, type of thing but the people that want to like you, know they, they want to reach out to you. So that's why I always ask my guests like you know what, what? Where can people follow or see you, don't you have?
Donn:
34:21 a website. Well, I, I I'm that small that I don't. Just like I said, if you go into psychology today, you'll be able to track me down.
Donn:
34:28 I'm out of Brentwood, california, but but the the key is this it's what I'm telling you now about this whole, you know, giving yourself permission thing. I found that that's the first uh, the message that I had given, the first uh session with everybody. Now it doesn't matter, first responder, civilian, doesn't matter, because it applies. It applies to this idea that if, if, if you're hurting and you want things to change, you got to find out where you're standing first before you can find out how to get started.
Donn:
34:59 Right, because if you, if, you think you're over here and you start and you go well, why aren't I happy? It's like because you're not starting in the right fucking place yet. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say like that you're right, um, but it's, it's I just I basically what I do, is I anybody that would call?
Donn:
35:15 I'd take this message and I'd go and I'd show you how it applies specifically to your life, because we get these ideas that we already know who we are, how we're, how we're sort of set up, and I'm like, oh, that's, that's what I thought too.
Jerry:
35:30 Yes, surprise yeah, I'm always like still, I'm still searching for who I am in some ways. I'm just not gotten there yet.
Donn:
35:41 Well, when we first start out, we have this internal framework and boy is it way off. Nothing's going to happen to us, we're going to be safe and there's a structure around who we are. That's solid until it's not, until something happens, until our career goes off in a different direction or we get hurt, or something happens right, and then that shatters right. And I'll give you, I'll give you a great example, um, of someone who not a client, but but someone who told me this story and I thought it was a perfect example. I use it all the time. He pulls somebody over on the free, on the freeway, goes to get him a ticket, he's off to the side of the road, he's got his car set up, he's, he goes to get the ticket, comes back, sits in his car, he's got his door open and he's writing the ticket out and all of a sudden he looks up in his rear view mirror and he realizes that there's a car, is about to absolutely obliterate him in that split second. And it does it, you know, injures him, puts him off work for like six months and he's really tore up right. Well, he gets through all that stuff, comes back to work and then, and then, after a couple of weeks, comes to see me and what? What I find out is uh well, he didn't come to see me. He came to. I saw him actually out in public and he goes and he goes.
Donn:
37:04 I just couldn't engage and I said, I said because there was that oh shit moment where he looked in that rear view mirror and he realized that that that thought that he had about how he was going to be able to to respond wasn't there. He wasn't. He realized that there was nothing he could do about what was about to happen to him and it scared him. Well, when you got this structure, fear is not allowed in there. When it does, it just goes. Well, you've got to go back in after that and sort of restructure that. You have to acknowledge that that thing happened, acknowledge that you were afraid, acknowledge that there was nothing you could do about it and and say, okay, now, with this in your past, what do you want to have here? What's the thing? What's the thing that you want to have here? How do you want to reconstruct it? And because, if you're trying to go back and and reconcile it with this original structure, you're like, well, that doesn't work anymore because fear came in and busted this up.
Jerry:
38:03 Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's. Uh, sometimes we like in that situation. You probably don't want to really admit to very many people that you were afraid, even though I'd be like I'm scared shitless.
Donn:
38:16 You know, if I looked up and saw something is about to crush me, Yep, well, and those scenarios I have, all first responders do what I like to call their ABCs right. And A is the event, the chronological event, the car crash, the baby death, the this, the that. Right, because first responders have a laundry list of those things. Well, in column B it's the oh shit moment, that moment where that sort of mascot picture where you look and go, this is where it's happening. Whatever happened, this is where it's happening. The smell of something, the look of something, the sound of something or whatever. That thing, that kind of drills down into you right.
Donn:
38:57 Well, and then their C column is either the value statement or the unanswered question why would God do this? You know, like one of those types of deals right yeah. And what happens is we do that without even thinking about it. It's just like that, and it's defined with emotions, not words, because if you've ever gotten into a really emotional situation, you're like I. I don't remember what was said, I just remember how I felt right, yeah, right well, that's because our intellectual brain is gone. It's turned off. Of course, you can't remember the words.
Jerry:
39:33 All you're doing is going, fear, scared, run right, right, right, right, yeah, yeah, Don, it's been great talking to you. I, I love all the uh the stories. You know like I can remember. You know the metaphors are great.
Donn:
39:50 Well, it's, it's, uh it. Needless to say, I have uh, some people come in more than once, so I have to remind them. It takes it. It takes a few swings of the hammer to make the nail flush with the wood.
Jerry:
40:03 Fair, it's fair. Well, thank you so much for being on today and I appreciate your time.
Donn:
40:10 No problem, thanks for having me.
Jerry:
40:11 Yeah.
Jerry:
40:12 Thanks again for listening. Don't forget to rate and review the show wherever you access your podcast. If you know someone that would be great on the show, please get ahold of our host, jerry Dean Lund, through the Instagram handles at Jerry Fire and Fuel or at Enduring the Badge Podcast, also by visiting the show's website, enduringthebadgepodcastcom, for additional methods of contact and up-to-date information regarding the show. Remember, the views and opinions expressed during the show solely represent those of our host and the current episode's guest. You.
