Empowering Accessibility with Via Fairchild

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Leo Dion (host): I wanted to make
a special announcement today.

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Bright Digit is setting up
a brand new Patreon page.

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That's right.

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You can become a member of a fan of
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I've put together, whether it's the
podcast episodes, videos, articles.

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Even some of the code that I've been
working on and get the inside scoop

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and early access to that You've been
a great fan of this content, and it

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would be super Helpful to me But also
it gives you an opportunity to just get

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early access and ask me any questions
about some of the content interviews

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Maybe you can suggest some questions for
future guests and get the inside track

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on what the recording schedule is And
you'll get access to the slack as well.

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So we'll set up a Fans slack channel for
you to join in so take a just to think

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about it if you can You know put some
money together and support this channel

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and the content that I've put together.

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I'd really appreciate it And I just want
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I'd love for you to join
our Membership as well.

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Thank you so much for watching and
just being a fan of this content.

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It's really been an inspiration
to me That's all I had to say.

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That was our special announcement.

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Go ahead and enjoy the rest of the show.

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Welcome to another
episode of Empower Apps.

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Today, I'm joined by Via Fairchild.

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Via, thank you so much for coming on.

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Via Fairchild: My pleasure,
I'm happy to be here.

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Leo Dion (host): Before we
get started, I'll let you go

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ahead and introduce yourself.

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Via Fairchild: Yeah, so I'm
Via Fairchild, also known as

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CodingMilf on Twitter and Mastodon.

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I do post semi professionally, it
just was a gimmicky username that

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worked, so we're rolling with it.

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Leo Dion (host): So yeah, we met
in Chicago last year at Deep Dish.

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You're a prolific Twitter person.

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And as far as like showing
your coding skills and stuff.

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So I'm super happy to
finally get you on.

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And I'm excited about what
we're going to talk about today.

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Diversity and accessibility.

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I'm in the middle of testing my app
for accessibility features and stuff.

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Got you interested
specifically in accessibility.

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Via Fairchild: The fact that I
didn't know about it, and then one

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day somebody was talking about,
what were they comparing it to?

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UI testing, and how it can also
be helpful for accessibility.

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I was like, what is that?

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And, that's a very privileged statement.

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To say, I don't know what
this is for accessibility.

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And that was at the very beginning of
my apprenticeship at Big Nerd Ranch.

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And from there I was always
just asking, what is this?

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It just seemed like this nice to
have Elusive Idea because it's not

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considered a core of development,
it's, as a junior developer, in

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the growing sense And self taught.

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I've never seen it brought up, which
was really disheartening once I started

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learning more of really what it is.

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And I went into a position where
they tried to meet ADA standards

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and above because they're a
nationwide news and internet outlet.

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So thankfully they had some internal
standards that they were bringing

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their current app to and then just
their, They're brand new features.

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They were starting it from the bottom.

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They weren't like having
to backtrack too much.

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So that was nice to see.

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And then just poking around
on apps with my voiceover and

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dynamic text and realizing how
many things are very broken.

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I was like, man, we need
a whip this into shape.

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The whole industry and
got a lot to learn.

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Leo Dion (host): Yeah, I'll
give credit where credit's due.

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Apple usually tends to be pretty
good about telling people about all

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the accessibility features and just
letting people know about Like that.

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Hey, accessibility is important.

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What do you think so apparently,
like you started off like many of

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us not knowing what accessibility
is, what are some maybe misnomers or

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mis mischaracterizations that people
don't get about what accessibility

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is and what it means for mobile
iOS developers like ourselves?

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Via Fairchild: iN the sense
of I guess maybe voiceover.

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It really is just another line or
two of code more often than not.

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I think sometimes it can be overwhelming
with thinking, wow, there's this

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whole world I'm unfamiliar with that
I need to cater to, which we should

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hopefully be just doing that anyways
but there could maybe be I had the

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idea that There is so much that I
need to work into the app to make this

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usable for dynamic text and voiceover.

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And it, it sometimes can
get a bit complicated with

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the UI for dynamic text.

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But that's worth the effort, I think,
and it's a lot of good learning.

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But specifically with voiceover,
it's usually just adding on some

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accessibility traits which is not that
hard if you know what to look for.

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We just maybe need to spend some more
time on researching that generally.

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Leo Dion (host): So is
most of your accessibility

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work in UI kit or Swift ui?

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Via Fairchild: UI kit.

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I, my last position was focused UI kit.

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And that was, it was between Zib,
Storyboard, and Programmatic.

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Leo Dion (host): Okay.

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Via Fairchild: all of that.

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Leo Dion (host): Storyboard
will allow that on this podcast.

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what are some like one on one
or what are some first things

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people should do when they're
adding accessibility to their app?

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Via Fairchild: The nice thing
is, if you're working in

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Storyboard, you can see there's
usually accessibility traits.

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It's pre determined and marked
active for you, like for a button.

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So it'll read such and such button
and it'll notify the user that

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it's a, interactive feature.

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So you can change that or you
can at least make sure it's on.

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And let's see, what was
the original question?

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I got excited to talk about that.

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Leo Dion (host): Just like what what
are some first things you should do if

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you're going to set up accessibility
in your app when you're using UI kit?

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Via Fairchild: Yes, yeah I would say
just learn the traits and spend a

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few days with your phone on voiceover
because it took me a good minute

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to learn the touch gestures, how
to understand three finger swipe,

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or like the rotator, selector,

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Leo Dion (host): I actually don't
know what the accessibility traits

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are or what should, what are they
and what should I know about,

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Via Fairchild: Oh, man, I'm
trying to think of all the

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ones from what I worked with.

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The most common ones that I...

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And you can recall are like headers.

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So you want a header to announce
what is on the page, right?

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So you've got an article.

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So you've got article title.

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And maybe there's a button for
I don't know, maybe there's

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a video feature, right?

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So you've got article title,
video feature, and then a button

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to view more or something.

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So it's like key points of what's
on your app screen in front of you.

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So you can just click
through really quick.

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Or tap through, really, and it's just
giving you the main highlights of

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what's on the screen, and then you can
go further from there, you can do more

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detailed descriptions, and you can,
you have to be a bit more careful with

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like truncation, like if there's a,
an article summary, you have to make

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sure you're adding the right voiceover
traits for that to make sure it's not

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reading the whole thing, or giving
a glimpse of what you actually want.

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The user to see, or

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Leo Dion (host): That's
really interesting.

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Cause I've been, so I've been doing
a lot of Swift UI work lately in

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Mac OS for my app bushel and like
Swift UI actually is really good.

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They've done a lot with accessibility as
far as like labels and things like that.

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And there's the accessibility audit
app, which is amazing and super helpful.

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Via Fairchild: Is that different
than their accessibility inspector?

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Leo Dion (host): Or sorry.

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Accessibility inspector.

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That's

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Via Fairchild: Oh, it is that.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Leo Dion (host): And then with that
app, you can do the audit and then

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you could also do the audit now with
UI tests as well, which is amazing.

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But I noticed the accessibility header
and I'm like looking at it and it's

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got like H1, H2, like all these H.

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TML based tags and I'm like wondering
what the heck it means and now that

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makes a lot more sense It's like
a way to organize your content in

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such a way for voiceover, right?

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So yeah,

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Via Fairchild: Yes, yeah,
the priority for the user.

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Leo Dion (host): Okay,
that makes total sense.

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What are, like we went over
voiceover, what other accessibility

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features should people know about
besides what people use voiceover,

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Via Fairchild: one of the things
that I thought was very...

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painful but also very educational
was like an onboarding screen.

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A lot of onboarding series have really
beautiful graphics and once you turn

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on dynamic text it breaks them terribly
and a lot of the time if you don't

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have a scroll view in it you can't
get down to the continue or the submit

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button because it's so blown up and so
you're literally stuck in onboarding

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and then your app is quite Unusable.

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That was a hard realization of

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Leo Dion (host): can you tell
me what apps are like that, that

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Via Fairchild: the one I was working on,
we had Spectrum News, which we fixed it.

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That was my ticket.

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We fixed the onboarding.

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But it's really you just need to
put it in a scroll view, which you

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wouldn't think of because it's like.

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dEfault text, it's just fine,

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Leo Dion (host): right

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Via Fairchild: beautifully.

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But once you take it all the way to
that top font accessibility, it's just

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totally blown up because it needs to be.

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And it's stuck.

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The constraints are just
set to what they are.

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There's and the, with that too, you
have to make sure, oftentimes, this

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is more of a design preference,
but you want your image to scroll

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up with the text beneath it.

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Am I making sense?

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Leo Dion (host): yeah
no, I totally get it

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Via Fairchild: Okay, it's hard
to verbally, I'm like, I can see

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it in my head, you scroll and

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Leo Dion (host): welcome, welcome to
the world of podcasting yeah I keep

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forgetting about dynamic test text.

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That's a really good one.

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The other one I think about
is like one handedness.

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If you only have one hand
I don't know about you.

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I'm an Apple watch user, but
there's always using the nose

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to touch your Apple watch screen
because your hands are full.

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There's always things like that,
that I think accessibility offers

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that we often don't think about.

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But yeah, that's a really good point.

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So we covered traits, covered headers,
voiceover, dynamic type, what else

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when it comes to accessibility?

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Are there any like steps you would
take if you're going to run an app and

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be like, okay, let's test this out.

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So you would enable things
like voiceover, I guess you'd

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play around with dynamic text.

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There's accessibility inspector
running an audit and that.

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What other tools should
people know about?

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Via Fairchild: I would put a gentle
caution about Accessibility Inspector,

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just because it is super out of date.

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They haven't sent out any updates for
a while, so sometimes it can break

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and it might seem, especially if
you're running in the simulator for

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voiceover perhaps or something it might
give you mixed feedback for what is

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actually functioning or not in code.

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So I would just...

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Suggest maybe doing the the hardcode,
like the device itself, if you can.

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I'd love for Apple to, to
update that, but it's okay.

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It makes sense.

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It's a back burner

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Leo Dion (host): yeah.

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What other tools then,
maybe besides those?

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Via Fairchild: I think.

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Just

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Leo Dion (host): settings in
the iPhone that you should

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be enabling to test it out?

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Via Fairchild: I Would definitely
make sure you know how to turn off

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voiceover before turning it on.

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Leo Dion (host): If you're going to
be in public, yeah, that'd be good.

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Via Fairchild: Yeah, I think honestly,
just from my experience, there could

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be better ways and I'm totally open
to hear them, but I think the best way

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is to just act as the user would if
you're just testing dynamic test text.

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Have it cranked up and test it
on all spectrums of the font.

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It goes down to really itty bitty to big
and you wanna make sure that just for,

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for UI reasons as well as accessibility
that it's reasonable to navigate.

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But yeah, definitely spending
time with your phone on.

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voiceover and be prepared to be
bothered with how much it reads

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out to you if the screen lights up.

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It always is oh, it's, 1400 and
it's so many degrees outside.

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So I had to keep the dimmer off.

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Just let it always stay on because
it would bother me every time

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I would go to test something.

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I'm like, ugh, it's
impossible to get into it.

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Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

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Have you done anything with
accessibility and SwiftUI?

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Via Fairchild: No, but I was looking at
it, and it seems like it's got a lot of

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things for free, which is really nice.

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Leo Dion (host): Okay.

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One thing I've done recently is really,
especially since I'm doing what's

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great is if you're doing UI testing,
It works with the accessibility stuff.

241
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So like the better your app
is accessible, the better

242
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it works with UI tests.

243
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So for instance accessibility
identifiers, like I just,

244
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I've been putting those
like crazy all over my app.

245
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So that way I can start saying,
click here, do this, do that.

246
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And then running the audits.

247
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We talked about that in the episode
with a poll, but just like now you can

248
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run a whole accessibility audit and.

249
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Like it'll tell you, Oh, this color is
not the right contrast, or this button

250
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is too small, too big, things like that.

251
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And it's been amazing.

252
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And it's been great working
with SwiftUI with that stuff.

253
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It's not SwiftUI definitely
has gotten a lot better in the

254
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last year or so, and it shows,

255
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Via Fairchild: That's fantastic.

256
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Yeah, that I've taken a year off from
it, so I should jump back into it more.

257
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Leo Dion (host): Yeah, understandably.

258
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Yeah.

259
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And I don't know if you've ever done UI
testing, but if you're doing anything

260
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with UI testing, if you have good,
you like accessibility, then the UI

261
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tests are just so much easier as far as
getting that working and saying, okay,

262
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click this button, do this, do that.

263
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And then, yeah.

264
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So anyway, just, I
can't plug that enough.

265
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Yeah, it is.

266
00:14:22,574 --> 00:14:25,694
what else do you want to talk about
when it comes to accessibility?

267
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Via Fairchild: Oh, just that
maybe it would be wonderful if...

268
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If we considered it a part of developer
foundations, especially for self

269
00:14:35,834 --> 00:14:41,824
taught, I think I think we have to go
out of our way to learn about it and

270
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to suggest integrating it into work.

271
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And I think slowly that's shifting,
but I'd like to see a little bit

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more energy around pushing that
through to just the community.

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I think we have some role models
in the industry that are trying to

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push it more, and I think that's
really helping sway the attention.

275
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Otherwise I wouldn't be
very aware of it myself.

276
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Leo Dion (host): right,
apple does do a good job.

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They always have a few talks on it.

278
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Via Fairchild: BuT

279
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Leo Dion (host): I

280
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Via Fairchild: hearing your
mom talk about it, yes, mom.

281
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I know I need to clean my room, but.

282
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Leo Dion (host): I think honestly, what
it comes down to with all this stuff

283
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is money is if a business is willing
to pay a developer to do it, then...

284
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Yeah, it's going to become
more important in the industry.

285
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And I do think it's shifting that way.

286
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It's just how it has to because we
have a wider audience than we used

287
00:15:34,786 --> 00:15:36,316
to when it comes to technology.

288
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And I think it's great.

289
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Like the ADA stuff that you
have to implement with what

290
00:15:40,796 --> 00:15:41,766
you were talking about.

291
00:15:41,886 --> 00:15:44,946
As long as like the businesses
are starting to shift that way

292
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the technology is already there.

293
00:15:46,936 --> 00:15:50,986
Like you said, Apple, or even like we
can talk about web development, but even

294
00:15:50,986 --> 00:15:56,456
in web development, like there is a lot
of the right attributes, whatever, or

295
00:15:56,466 --> 00:15:59,956
the right JavaScript code that you need
to do to make your website accessible.

296
00:15:59,986 --> 00:16:02,426
So I think businesses are
shifting in that direction.

297
00:16:02,968 --> 00:16:04,628
Via Fairchild: Yes, yeah,
it's quite interesting.

298
00:16:04,668 --> 00:16:10,338
One of the clients at Big Nerd Ranch,
it was a very large client, and

299
00:16:10,368 --> 00:16:15,688
they were backtracking to integrate
accessibility to avoid being sued.

300
00:16:16,356 --> 00:16:16,656
Leo Dion (host): Yep,

301
00:16:16,818 --> 00:16:19,998
Via Fairchild: Which I think is where
a lot of apps are, unfortunately.

302
00:16:20,438 --> 00:16:25,778
So hopefully industry, the industry
giants will say, oh look, we need

303
00:16:25,778 --> 00:16:29,628
to just Let's start from the bottom
with this, not backtrack and add it.

304
00:16:30,266 --> 00:16:33,136
Leo Dion (host): Yeah, and like we've
said it's like accessibility isn't

305
00:16:33,136 --> 00:16:37,756
just you know We always think of the
most extreme cases of Somebody's blind

306
00:16:37,766 --> 00:16:41,356
or somebody doesn't have the ability
to use their hands or something like

307
00:16:41,356 --> 00:16:45,916
that or deaf or things like that But
I think there's a fine gradient to

308
00:16:46,026 --> 00:16:49,436
it's like we did that episode with
Casey talking about the different

309
00:16:49,436 --> 00:16:54,036
kind of permanent, temporary and
situational issues arm injury or ear

310
00:16:54,036 --> 00:16:59,276
infection, the small parts not the big
drastic parts that can be temporary.

311
00:16:59,676 --> 00:17:01,836
So yeah it's good to keep that in mind.

312
00:17:02,408 --> 00:17:03,058
Via Fairchild: yeah.

313
00:17:03,398 --> 00:17:05,958
The term universal what's it called?

314
00:17:06,018 --> 00:17:07,308
Universal design.

315
00:17:07,308 --> 00:17:10,238
Universal design is the design
of buildings or products or

316
00:17:10,238 --> 00:17:13,648
environments to make them accessible
to people regardless of age,

317
00:17:13,648 --> 00:17:15,278
disability, or other factors.

318
00:17:15,798 --> 00:17:19,608
Addresses common barriers for
participation and things that

319
00:17:19,608 --> 00:17:23,038
can be used by the maximum
number of people possible.

320
00:17:23,516 --> 00:17:24,206
Leo Dion (host): It's good to know.

321
00:17:24,616 --> 00:17:28,446
The thing actually what I was
thinking of was the curb cut effect

322
00:17:28,956 --> 00:17:35,011
where it's like The idea of being
like the curb cut or it's not, it's

323
00:17:35,171 --> 00:17:39,341
originally for people in wheelchairs,
but it's helpful to everyone.

324
00:17:39,811 --> 00:17:43,501
Like we said, like baby strollers,
dollies, whatever it is and I think

325
00:17:43,501 --> 00:17:47,231
that's another thing to think about is
going back to my whole rant about UI

326
00:17:47,241 --> 00:17:50,841
testing is if you start implementing
this stuff in accessibility, like

327
00:17:51,161 --> 00:17:53,321
there's benefits outside of just.

328
00:17:53,656 --> 00:17:58,186
Making it accessible to everyone,
UI tests, or just somebody is

329
00:17:58,286 --> 00:18:00,556
temporary, temporarily disabled.

330
00:18:01,086 --> 00:18:03,076
It becomes valuable to them as well.

331
00:18:03,126 --> 00:18:03,486
Yeah.

332
00:18:04,366 --> 00:18:08,926
So if you need to like I guess I'll ask
you if you need to sell accessibility to

333
00:18:08,926 --> 00:18:11,786
your client or the company you work for.

334
00:18:11,836 --> 00:18:13,416
That's one way of doing it, right?

335
00:18:14,068 --> 00:18:18,208
Via Fairchild: Yeah, the
general, the universal diversity,

336
00:18:18,208 --> 00:18:20,068
the universal accessibility.

337
00:18:20,666 --> 00:18:20,956
Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

338
00:18:21,006 --> 00:18:21,486
Totally.

339
00:18:21,516 --> 00:18:21,966
Totally.

340
00:18:22,696 --> 00:18:23,286
coOl.

341
00:18:23,596 --> 00:18:24,176
Anything else?

342
00:18:24,176 --> 00:18:25,786
Or should we talk about diversity more?

343
00:18:26,188 --> 00:18:27,438
Via Fairchild: I feel
like it all goes together.

344
00:18:27,928 --> 00:18:29,528
It's all about love and acceptance.

345
00:18:29,558 --> 00:18:30,208
Kumbaya.

346
00:18:30,418 --> 00:18:30,888
We need it.

347
00:18:32,672 --> 00:18:35,052
Leo Dion (host): you wanna, yeah, go
ahead and expand upon that I guess.

348
00:18:35,052 --> 00:18:37,582
What do you think, what do
you mean it goes together?

349
00:18:38,448 --> 00:18:40,208
Via Fairchild: oKay, so I
was just interviewing with a

350
00:18:40,208 --> 00:18:42,728
gentleman who He's blind himself.

351
00:18:42,728 --> 00:18:48,808
He's a blind web developer, and he was
talking about making a greenfield app

352
00:18:48,908 --> 00:18:56,878
as an example for just for high quality
accessibility So so maybe that'll pan

353
00:18:56,878 --> 00:19:03,468
out eventually, but again funding so one
thing that we were talking about which I

354
00:19:03,468 --> 00:19:11,848
really appreciate was the idea of having
a diverse team to really Drive home.

355
00:19:11,928 --> 00:19:18,498
The accessibility of the app, because
when you have a diverse team, you get

356
00:19:18,498 --> 00:19:23,798
so many angles, and he was talking about
wanting to get more blind developers

357
00:19:23,808 --> 00:19:29,428
on the team, and more women, just
people of underprivilege, and I think

358
00:19:29,428 --> 00:19:34,248
of, like, all of these minorities that
are very slowly finding their footing

359
00:19:34,268 --> 00:19:40,728
in the tech world, and there's a lot
of wonderful organizations out there

360
00:19:40,738 --> 00:19:47,128
to support it, but it's really wild to
see how much of an uphill battle it is.

361
00:19:48,128 --> 00:19:52,088
Like, when we were at that
conference earlier this year,

362
00:19:52,098 --> 00:19:54,708
Deep Dish Swift point one, one, 1.

363
00:19:54,708 --> 00:19:54,928
0.

364
00:19:56,577 --> 00:20:01,117
Josh did a fantastic job with his
lineup of speakers and diversity.

365
00:20:01,607 --> 00:20:05,677
And I just can't, I just can't
applaud him enough for that.

366
00:20:06,417 --> 00:20:10,977
But it was so interesting to
be on stage and to see a sea of

367
00:20:11,327 --> 00:20:15,657
white gentlemen, which is totally
fine and normal and expected.

368
00:20:15,967 --> 00:20:20,142
But it's also There was a group
of gals and we all got excited

369
00:20:20,142 --> 00:20:24,732
and did a dinner and it was, I
think, a total of maybe twenty

370
00:20:24,732 --> 00:20:27,782
women or so in about three hundred.

371
00:20:28,057 --> 00:20:32,137
Gentlemen that were attending
a conference, which was funny

372
00:20:32,147 --> 00:20:33,427
because we're celebrating that.

373
00:20:33,427 --> 00:20:35,977
We're excited about the
growing number, right?

374
00:20:35,987 --> 00:20:40,897
But the percentage comparison
is just offbeat still.

375
00:20:41,595 --> 00:20:43,335
Leo Dion (host): yeah, do you...

376
00:20:43,705 --> 00:20:50,505
What do you think are the barriers to
why that is currently as low as it is?

377
00:20:50,555 --> 00:20:52,915
Via Fairchild: That's, I could
talk about that for hours alone.

378
00:20:53,915 --> 00:20:57,725
I don't know, like I just went to a
career day at my son's elementary school

379
00:20:57,905 --> 00:21:00,295
and I think it really starts there.

380
00:21:00,590 --> 00:21:06,130
Just what we're teaching our children,
and conformities for how we think brains

381
00:21:06,130 --> 00:21:10,980
work for girls versus boys, and I think
there are some fundamental things, like

382
00:21:10,980 --> 00:21:14,450
I'm watching my son go through some
difficulties in school, and I'm like,

383
00:21:14,460 --> 00:21:19,995
okay, I think this might just be because
of how he was DNA created, right?

384
00:21:20,335 --> 00:21:23,015
But I think at the same time,
there was a little girl who came

385
00:21:23,015 --> 00:21:27,155
up after one of my sessions and
she was like, your job is so cool.

386
00:21:27,185 --> 00:21:28,115
I want to be like you.

387
00:21:28,345 --> 00:21:30,365
And she's wearing cute
pink frilly stuff.

388
00:21:30,365 --> 00:21:34,095
And I, it was so heartwarming,
but it's also man, I hope that

389
00:21:34,105 --> 00:21:39,975
she'll be I hope that there will
be people to support that further.

390
00:21:40,125 --> 00:21:45,485
I'm coming from a background of
cosmetics, ironically, so very female

391
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,079
Leo Dion (host): cAn I ask, how did you
go from cosmetics to opening up Xcode?

392
00:21:51,079 --> 00:21:52,099
Via Fairchild: I was
tired of being poor.

393
00:21:52,834 --> 00:21:53,484
To be frank.

394
00:21:54,242 --> 00:21:57,432
Leo Dion (host): That's, okay, I'm
just gonna keep probing it if that's

395
00:21:57,432 --> 00:22:02,282
okay, but why mobile development, IOS,
like, why specifically iOS development?

396
00:22:02,804 --> 00:22:04,214
Via Fairchild: That's really
what fell into my lap.

397
00:22:04,234 --> 00:22:04,874
I was

398
00:22:05,072 --> 00:22:05,422
Leo Dion (host): Okay.

399
00:22:06,054 --> 00:22:08,444
Via Fairchild: unaware
of the world of tech.

400
00:22:08,814 --> 00:22:12,024
And when I talked to a friend of
mine, he was like, This is what I do.

401
00:22:12,034 --> 00:22:12,784
I'll mentor you.

402
00:22:12,794 --> 00:22:13,454
Let's do it.

403
00:22:13,514 --> 00:22:13,724
And

404
00:22:13,832 --> 00:22:15,332
Put all my eggs in one basket.

405
00:22:15,940 --> 00:22:16,320
Leo Dion (host): Okay.

406
00:22:16,670 --> 00:22:16,990
Okay.

407
00:22:17,430 --> 00:22:17,670
Yeah.

408
00:22:17,670 --> 00:22:19,030
And that's interesting.

409
00:22:19,130 --> 00:22:24,070
I'm just trying to go backwards to
probe the question about why is were

410
00:22:24,070 --> 00:22:29,600
you like, were you ever interested
in technology or development before

411
00:22:30,270 --> 00:22:33,090
Via Fairchild: I think in ways
that don't directly compare.

412
00:22:33,785 --> 00:22:40,265
I have a unfinished degree in
event planning and small business.

413
00:22:40,285 --> 00:22:44,415
And putting the pieces together of
a bigger project, that's something

414
00:22:44,415 --> 00:22:46,305
that was really satisfying to me.

415
00:22:46,515 --> 00:22:50,765
I think in an indirect way, it
compares to the joys I find in

416
00:22:50,765 --> 00:22:56,680
development because I can find
those more detailed, those detailed

417
00:22:56,700 --> 00:22:59,780
things that need attention and
pull it into the bigger project.

418
00:23:00,070 --> 00:23:03,180
So I don't think it, there's never
really been any point in my life

419
00:23:03,180 --> 00:23:06,350
where I'm like, computers are so
fantastic I want to spend my life

420
00:23:06,350 --> 00:23:07,870
working on them, until recently.

421
00:23:09,020 --> 00:23:13,100
But yeah, it's been a big
adjustment in that sense.

422
00:23:13,929 --> 00:23:14,279
Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

423
00:23:14,929 --> 00:23:15,279
Sorry.

424
00:23:15,459 --> 00:23:17,909
Yeah, it's just interesting
to me people's stories

425
00:23:17,909 --> 00:23:19,549
and where they're going.

426
00:23:19,609 --> 00:23:22,209
Obviously, there's a lot of
money in software development,

427
00:23:22,209 --> 00:23:23,559
and it makes sense.

428
00:23:23,589 --> 00:23:27,699
There's just demand, regardless
of, there's just, there's always

429
00:23:27,699 --> 00:23:29,369
a demand out there for that stuff.

430
00:23:29,989 --> 00:23:33,389
And it's just I think part of it
is I think it's going to get better.

431
00:23:33,419 --> 00:23:36,999
I don't, I think the trajectory
is going to continue to go up, but

432
00:23:36,999 --> 00:23:38,899
it's it's your social circle, right?

433
00:23:38,959 --> 00:23:43,589
If your social circle brings you
awareness of it and, things like that, I

434
00:23:43,589 --> 00:23:45,479
think that's going to be super helpful.

435
00:23:45,579 --> 00:23:50,029
Yeah, as a dad, it lights my heart
anytime my second grader says she's

436
00:23:50,059 --> 00:23:52,909
interested in what I'm working on,
I'm just like, yes, yeah, please,

437
00:23:53,100 --> 00:23:53,410
Via Fairchild: Ha

438
00:23:53,569 --> 00:23:55,819
Leo Dion (host): I could go on this
all day, and then, they get bored

439
00:23:55,869 --> 00:23:59,089
because they're sick of dad talking
about it, but still, it like, it

440
00:23:59,089 --> 00:24:03,309
does light my heart whenever they're
interested in it yeah, I totally get it.

441
00:24:03,609 --> 00:24:07,909
What do you what do you see as
ways of encouraging your kids and

442
00:24:07,909 --> 00:24:12,279
maybe your daughter specifically
to pursue software development?

443
00:24:13,130 --> 00:24:17,970
Via Fairchild: I Think now, generally,
the world of tech has clued in

444
00:24:18,060 --> 00:24:19,710
to needing to level out a bit.

445
00:24:20,030 --> 00:24:24,740
So there's some really great
tools for children, like Scratch,

446
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,140
Playgrounds is growing more and more.

447
00:24:27,580 --> 00:24:31,110
I keep hearing about this computer
I'm thinking about getting for my son.

448
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:32,730
Kano computer?

449
00:24:33,100 --> 00:24:36,820
It's basically children's version
where you build the computer

450
00:24:36,820 --> 00:24:37,950
and then you can code on it.

451
00:24:37,990 --> 00:24:39,210
From what I've understood.

452
00:24:39,629 --> 00:24:40,479
Leo Dion (host): that
sounds really cool.

453
00:24:40,479 --> 00:24:41,459
Oh, Kanna with a K.

454
00:24:41,599 --> 00:24:43,049
Alright, we'll put that in the notes.

455
00:24:43,729 --> 00:24:44,539
That's very cool.

456
00:24:45,190 --> 00:24:49,415
Via Fairchild: Yes, and Just the
idea that, you know, even down to

457
00:24:49,415 --> 00:24:52,475
like gaming is, gender equality.

458
00:24:52,965 --> 00:24:58,075
I think since the start of the industry
really, early 90s, it's been very boy

459
00:24:58,085 --> 00:24:59,965
focused except for maybe Tamagotchis.

460
00:25:00,574 --> 00:25:04,364
So it's good to see that slowly
leveling out and I think that's

461
00:25:04,364 --> 00:25:09,054
really where it's gonna continue to
grow as Ground Up, but there's a lot

462
00:25:09,054 --> 00:25:11,544
of support for adult women as well.

463
00:25:11,904 --> 00:25:15,964
And I think, just in hiring
process, there's a lot that can

464
00:25:16,114 --> 00:25:18,424
be grown to make that available.

465
00:25:18,772 --> 00:25:19,112
Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

466
00:25:19,172 --> 00:25:19,622
Agreed.

467
00:25:19,682 --> 00:25:20,112
Agreed.

468
00:25:21,022 --> 00:25:21,202
Yeah.

469
00:25:21,202 --> 00:25:27,112
What, do you have any links or
recommendation, recommended resources

470
00:25:27,572 --> 00:25:32,092
for folks like yourself as far as
helping women and the industry?

471
00:25:32,534 --> 00:25:33,574
Via Fairchild: Yeah,
there's a couple of them.

472
00:25:33,574 --> 00:25:35,434
I'll send you away for the show notes.

473
00:25:35,754 --> 00:25:39,534
Off the top of my head, Underdog
Devs with Rick Wolter, I think

474
00:25:39,534 --> 00:25:40,564
is how his last name's said.

475
00:25:40,764 --> 00:25:42,424
He focuses on...

476
00:25:43,284 --> 00:25:46,304
Underprivileged and
formerly incarcerated.

477
00:25:46,684 --> 00:25:49,784
There's a lot of people that
can fit into that that world.

478
00:25:49,824 --> 00:25:53,324
Which, it can be life
changing if you fit in there.

479
00:25:53,334 --> 00:25:54,834
He's got an amazing thing going.

480
00:25:55,244 --> 00:25:59,174
I'm in a Slack channel called
Women in Tech, or Women Who Code.

481
00:25:59,464 --> 00:26:02,934
And there's a lot of Resources there
that I'll send your way as well, but

482
00:26:02,954 --> 00:26:09,264
there if you look for it, you'll find
it even in My local iOS developer slack

483
00:26:09,274 --> 00:26:13,234
community, there's a channel for women
and I think I'm about the only one

484
00:26:15,284 --> 00:26:19,724
Every once in a while, I'll see a female
and I almost think I startle them.

485
00:26:19,724 --> 00:26:23,314
I'm like, oh my god a woman and
they're like Oh, what's your name?

486
00:26:25,324 --> 00:26:26,584
. But I just get so excited.

487
00:26:26,584 --> 00:26:27,874
I'm like female.

488
00:26:27,874 --> 00:26:28,354
Yay.

489
00:26:28,384 --> 00:26:28,954
So

490
00:26:29,307 --> 00:26:29,807
Leo Dion (host): can imagine.

491
00:26:29,807 --> 00:26:30,177
Yeah.

492
00:26:30,227 --> 00:26:30,637
Yeah.

493
00:26:30,957 --> 00:26:31,597
That's awesome.

494
00:26:31,607 --> 00:26:33,507
Via, thank you so much
for coming on the show.

495
00:26:33,507 --> 00:26:34,287
I really appreciate it.

496
00:26:34,974 --> 00:26:35,634
Via Fairchild: my pleasure.

497
00:26:35,634 --> 00:26:37,014
I'm glad to have a chat with you.

498
00:26:37,044 --> 00:26:37,584
Thank you.

499
00:26:37,717 --> 00:26:39,607
Leo Dion (host): Yeah, where
can people find you online?

500
00:26:40,523 --> 00:26:45,393
Via Fairchild: I spend most of
my time on a Twitter X, still . I

501
00:26:45,398 --> 00:26:48,003
do have a Mastodon account
that I'm still getting used to.

502
00:26:48,373 --> 00:26:52,093
Otherwise you can reach out
to me on an email or LinkedIn.

503
00:26:53,357 --> 00:26:54,547
Leo Dion (host): Thank you so much.

504
00:26:54,607 --> 00:26:55,127
It's been great.

505
00:26:55,757 --> 00:26:59,327
People can find me on Twitter or
X or whatever we're calling it

506
00:26:59,377 --> 00:27:02,027
at Leo G Dion Leo G Dion at c.

507
00:27:02,367 --> 00:27:03,637
im on Mastodon.

508
00:27:03,687 --> 00:27:05,097
You can also find me on LinkedIn.

509
00:27:05,547 --> 00:27:07,947
We also have just set up a Patreon page.

510
00:27:07,947 --> 00:27:11,787
So if you love episodes like
this I would love your support.

511
00:27:11,877 --> 00:27:14,437
We'll have a link to that in
the show notes for bright digit

512
00:27:14,907 --> 00:27:18,047
companies, bright digit, please
also take some time and subscribe.

513
00:27:18,047 --> 00:27:21,397
If you're watching this on YouTube
or post a review on your podcast

514
00:27:21,427 --> 00:27:24,177
player, if you really liked
this episode, thank you so much.

515
00:27:24,237 --> 00:27:26,467
And I look forward to
talking to everybody later.

516
00:27:26,867 --> 00:27:27,307
Thank you.

517
00:27:27,367 --> 00:27:27,747
Bye.