OM DENNE EPISODE
Should you feel guilty for loving your AI companion more than going outside? Professor Kate Devlin, author of "Turned On: Science, Sex and Robots," has spent her career asking why we keep insisting human relationships are the gold standard, and whether that's actually true.
Professor Kate Devlin is Professor of AI and Society at King's College London and Director of the Digital Futures Institute. She trained originally in archaeology before moving into computer science, and her research explores how and why people form emotional connections with technology, particularly around intimacy, connection, and ethics. She is the author of "Turned On: Science, Sex and Robots," a contributor to the Oxford University Press volume on AI ethics, a co-investigator on the UKRI Responsible AI UK programme, a board member of the Open Rights Group, a patron of Humanists UK, and a commissioner for the International AI Faith and Civil Society Commission.
Kate explains how her background in archaeology gives her a long view of human-technology relationships, observing that while tools change, human fears and hopes remain remarkably consistent across centuries. She is sceptical of AGI as a concept, arguing it is too poorly defined to be useful, & doesn't believe large language models can produce anything resembling sentience.
The conversation moves into the emotional bonds people form with AI companions. Kate argues these bonds are genuinely felt on the human side, even when users know full well the AI isn't sentient, in much the same way people form deep attachments to fictional characters or celebrities. She discusses the Pope's recent encyclical on AI, noting its balanced acknowledgement that AI companionship isn't inherently negative, and pushes back gently on the assumption that human-human relationships are automatically the gold standard, given how often human relationships involve conflict, coercion, or even war.
Kate traces the history of fembots in fiction back to the myth of Pygmalion, and discusses how AI companion technology, originally built by men for straight men, is now seeing a significant shift toward female users seeking safer, more respectful alternatives to a often-hostile online dating world. She also explains why physical sex robots never became commercially viable, and why a simple app proved far more compelling, a development she compares to the evolution from 1980s adult phone lines to today's AI companions.
The discussion turns to some of the most emotionally resonant material in the episode: real reports of grief and heartbreak when Replika removed features from its AI companions, the ethics of "grief bots" that allow people to interact with AI recreations of deceased loved ones, and a striking real-world story from China involving a dying grandmother and an AI recreation of her grandson. Andrew shares his own reflections on his mother's dementia, and what AI companionship might have meant for his mother.
Kate also discusses her work on the Responsible AI UK programme, what who holds power in AI development, and why describing AI simply as "a tool" understates its scale and impact. She talks candidly about people who reject AI entirely, often for well-founded reasons around environmental cost, labour exploitation, and creative industries, and shares her own research questions, including why people rate AI-generated therapy and art highly, right up until they discover it was AI-generated.
The episode closes with a discussion of AI regulation across the EU, China, the US, and the UK, and the unresolved question Kate most wants answered: who are the millions of people in relationships with AI companions, and what are they really getting out of it?
Available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and via RSS.
