EOTP 009 Interview with Peter MacKay
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[00:00:00] Augy: The international community, global politics, political heavy-hitters. These are often people who are in the news, documentaries, in the newspaper, and we see them as untouchable. Well today's guest is very touchable, Nova Scotia roots, roots, and politics roots in the law. But when we unpack all of the things that this person is about.
He grew up having a respect for community and a dedication to community. I'm proud to say that today's guest is Peter MacKay.
Welcome back everyone to Empathize Others: The Podcast, today's guest is a long time friend of mine and a family friend. In fact, um, I call his younger brother my best friend, uh, but I've always been connected to this person and seeing them go from. A guy in a fancy convertible car when I was a kid watching him in law school to, you know, watching him on TV on an international stage.
And so I'm so happy and proud today to be, um, conversating and connecting with, um, someone that I've always kind of looked up to as far as leadership and, uh, someone from Nova Scotia and, uh, you know, today we're going to really, get into what community means on a much larger level. And our guest is Peter McKay.
[00:01:53] Peter: Augy, it's great to be with you. And I have to return the compliment because I have followed your career both as an athlete, and then later as a coach and administrator and somebody who has always put community at the center of their lives. And we, you know, we were on parallel course, uh, throughout much of our upbringing here in Nova Scotia in part because of my brother and your friendship.
But, uh, you're somebody who I've always admired as well. I must say
[00:02:23] Augy: it's a lot of flattery, Peter. I really appreciate that because you know, my level and your level, I don't see them the same, but more than just that, and we're going to start early. I think that there's something that we'll find out in this Podcast between us and in, in how we grew up was family has a lot to do with it.
And the way that we were brought up, because I always say that my household. Was I think almost rule number one was you do things for community. There were people in and out of our house all the time. Um, and it was, and it wasn't, you know, it was from all shapes, sizes, colors, diversity was part of it. But if it was one thing, is that our house, wasn't just our house in our lives.
[00:03:06] Peter: That's exactly the type of atmosphere that, that I experienced. Uh, my dad, of course, people remember my father because of his involvement in politics, but it was really my mother that had arguably the biggest influence on me. And, you know, we were in a single parent situation. Where my mum was working, uh, in the, sort of in the international volunteer space, she started, uh, uh, or was part of an organization called the Women's Health Education Network.
She worked at both Dalhousie University. Then later at Acadia. And she, my mom was Irish. She had a very, uh, outward looking personality and was always interested in, in the international world and, and events. And so she would bring people to our home for dinners and we would celebrate. Uh, you know, festivals and, and, and, uh, holidays that weren't even necessarily Canadian holidays.
And so we, we learned a lot about other cultures, uh, growing up and, and I, I look back on that and it was, it was very formative because it taught you some of the really important lessons in life about, you know, looking beyond your own community and looking at other people's perspectives, getting, uh, a view of,
other cultures and how that influence your own opinions on, on many different things. And so I felt really blessed, you know, in many ways we, we maybe didn't have the same things that everybody else had, but we always had a really interesting discussion around the dinner table and we got to meet some fascinating people.
[00:04:43] Augy: Yeah. And when you and I, and we've talked about this many times before our upbringings were, were eerily similar because, you know, so your dad's Elmer MacKay and, and your mom is in Wolfville and, and she's, uh, uh, for women's rights. She's a, she's a, uh, a foundational personality around that. And then my dad's Rocky Jones and my mom's Joan Jones.
And so my dad had an actually, it was funny. I met your dad. I was at Lorne, you know, with your dad one time. And, and me and Andy are up there and he's talking to me about his connection to my dad, right? And the work that they did in the seventies, which sometimes people don't even know that. And so there's such similarities between.
What we were getting from male energy in our life and what we were getting from female energy in our life, you know? And, and when I look at what you do and what I do, I think that there's a real mix of, of, of having this viewpoint. That's so wide, right. Because our moms were power sources. Right. So even though people would strangely connect us to, oh, your Rocky's son or your Elmer's son, it's actually where our, our mom's sons right.
In, in the upbringing. Just to circle you back. Um, you know, being in New Glasgow and Lorne and, and growing up, talk a little bit about your early time with your dad and what community meant to him. Cause you're already spoke about, you know, obviously you spent some time in Wolfville with your mom, but let's circle a little back bit to Pictou and New Glasgow area.
And, and what, what were you seeing from your dad at a young age that, that tipped you off to communities?
[00:06:22] Peter: Yeah, that's right. Augy. My dad was obviously in, in my formative years, you know, when I started to think about the world beyond my home, um, my dad was, was very much involved in politics. He was elected in 71 and you know, it was a different time in terms of federal politicians.
They would go away to Ottawa and they would be there for weeks, sometimes months at a time. So there was a lot of separation, but, you know, it was clear to me that my dad was doing something that you know was important and was about representing our community. It was about helping people in so many different ways.
I remember being at his constituency office and he had people in the office that were constantly helping others with employment or insurance or issues that, you know, affected their lives. And so it became, you know, a part of, of my perception that, you know, we were there to serve others. You know, it was, it was important that you, you gave of yourself to the community.
And, and so that was instilled in my mother, from my mother in different ways. But my dad here in Pictou County and his father before him, um, You know, we're, we're very much about public service. And I would say my grandfather, who was also a very, uh, formative person for me, and he was a simple man. He ran a saw mill.
He, uh, was very sort of stoic and he didn't say a lot, but when he did it, it was impactful and he would do things, Augy. And I heard about these things much later in my life when I was practicing law. But. He would hear of somebody who was in trouble, for example, a behind on their taxes. And he would go down and pay their taxes for them at the, at the local courthouse, because they were facing foreclosure.
He, I remember I defended a guy once for what I thought was a, you know, an overreach by the police. And so I defended them and got them off the charge. And when he came to pay me, I said, no, no, I I'm not accepting payment for this. This was, this. This should never have happened to you. And you shouldn't have to pay.
And he, he broke down, he got very emotional and he said, I, I, you know, I can't believe that this is happening and you're, you're doing this. And I said, well, why wouldn't I? And he said, I remember my father telling me a story about your grandfather. And we were building a house and we ran out of money and we had no lumber.
And we were living in, in this sort of basement of this house. And he said and three trucks pulled into the yard and they unloaded the lumber. And, you know, I remember hearing after, from my dad that it was your grandfather and he said, look, you know, just take this lumber, finish your house. And, and don't say a word about it.
And that, that kind of just quiet, uh, compassionate, you know, giving back is, is critically important. And frankly, we, we need more of that to make our community stronger and, I have always felt blessed that I was exposed to some of those early experiences from both my parents and my granddad.
[00:09:38] Augy: Yeah. And that's that?
So like you have my head exploding around. Now I'm thinking generationally because when we go back to our grandfathers and our grandmothers, and we think about pre urban, kind of when people lived more rurally, generally, even Halifax was small. All of that. Community was not as big as like you, you were, you were immersed in community.
Like, so whether it was harvest time, whether it was building houses, it was very difficult for you to be, specially if you were a leader in that town, it was very hard for you to isolate yourself and say, I'm making money, from these people in the community, but I'm not going to support them. That's very difficult.
And I say that because you just said, I think we need more of that because it's a lot easier to make money now and be in a good kind of comfortable position and not give back. But I think when we think about our grandfathers and our grandmothers and also our fathers and mothers, that was very difficult for them.
I think community was almost a given, let me put it that way. And.
[00:10:42] Peter: I think that's right Augy, in part, as you said, because of the size and the population growth. It was personal, you know, in communities because people knew, as you just mentioned, who was doing well and maybe who was struggling and you had to you and you inevitably encounter those people on the street, in church,
in a store and you know, and your kids went to school together. And I mean, this seems hard to believe, uh, given, you know, we're, we're close in age, but I went to a one-room school in Lorne and, uh, you know, there was no running water. Like, it seems like an episode of Little House on the Prairie when I think back on it, but I just caught the tail end
of that generation, where before they started bussing kids to rural schools and it was primary to six and, you know, again, the, the community was woven together and there was sort of a, a fiber that brought everybody together and you know, it again seems like a bygone era. You'd help people with their hay or painting their barn,
and that also built a really close ties. You know, it was pre-internet, it was pre cable television. So people, uh, inevitably did things together too, in the community centers, they got together for cards and dances and, and bands would come in and play. And so some of that is, is inevitably lost just through the evolution and the way society now structures itself.
But I think there's elements of that, that we could preserve and promote. And part of it is that the very basis of your show and that is demonstrable empathy and understanding for the people around you and the, and the, I think the obligation to give back.
[00:12:31] Augy: Yeah. And you're exactly right, Peter, because I think there's now, and I'm glad you caught that.
I mean, the essence of this show is not only to Empathize other people, but I find all of the guests that have been on and people that we invite on are people that have this. Connection to community in 2021, like in the modern times, but that connection now needs to have some energy behind it. Like it was almost a given in the 50's, 60's, 70's that there was communal.
And I think now what I really would love is when people are listening to the podcast and being inspired by. Peter McKays and Dion Walcotts and Folamis isn't the people that have been on the podcast. I want them to realize that yeah, you have to make an effort. Like there that's the difference, right? Is that it's not just pressing like, or, um, you know, watching a podcast or because we can easily isolate ourselves.
But I do think that there's something. That can never go away, which is the classic human element that we have to help other people. And we have to give back. We have to whether it's coaching, whether it's, whether it's whatever and it's being out there and I grew up like that, it comes natural. You grew up like that.
It comes natural. I would suggest to you that it doesn't come natural to everyone, to everyone. And it's a lot easier with the internet age to isolate to your own, your own family. I do want to pop now to Wolfville. And you growing up and then spending time with your mom and Wolfville cause I will say, and this is a little personal, I don't want to get too much away from having you talk, but your mom had an effect on me and, and I was maybe 14, 15 years old.
I'm from Halifax and I'm going to Wolfville to visit Andy and. Your mom was the coolest of cool man, I believe. I mean, I'm 15 years old and we're going to visit like Andy and your mom is just, she's a perfect combination of strict and watching over us. And cause I had a really like, I wasn't, I wasn't allowed, my parents wouldn't let me do whatever.
So when I said I was going to visit Andy, there had to be something. Rules around it, whatever. And your mom was just... We played basketball. We go out, we hang and, and, you know, we, we, we, were ourselves, she allowed us to be ourselves, but there was discipline and there was 'Make sure you're doing the right things.
And I'm giving you guys freedom. But just make sure that you do the right thing with that freedom'. And I can see your mom on the porch and we would come back all sweaty and yucky and she'd have drinks for us like Kool-Aid and whatever, and food. And she just accommodated us, but she allowed us freedom. I don't know how to really say how that affected me.
I can see your mom's face right now. Because of that.
[00:15:05] Peter: Well, I'm getting you're, you're making me get choked up Augy. You're you're a, you're hitting me in the heart. Cause you know, I think about my mom every day, but she, she did have that impact. I mean, she was the epitome of the, the, the welcoming mother. Um, your, you know, your parents and my parents knew each other.
So I think that there was probably an element of trust on your parents' part, knowing that you were in Wolfville and, and staying with, with Andy, because my mom Macha was, you know, she was going to keep one eye on you for sure. And she was going to also, you know, she had, she had subtle ways of, of influencing you.
She wasn't somebody who would get, you know, overly emotional, although she was an emotional person, but it was almost worse, you know, in terms of her, her style of discipline is, you know, she would sort of express disappointment. If you had done something that you didn't want you to, and just in her tone of voice, she, she could reel you in.
But she, you know, all of my friends, Andy's friends, my sisters, they. They did enjoy the freedom, but there was always a feeling. And I expect that you, you would share this. You didn't want to disappoint your parents. You didn't want to get in trouble or do something that would make them feel somehow that you hadn't lived up to what they would expect of you.
And, you know, you were speaking earlier about how it takes effort. In, in some ways to, to, to have an impact or to show empathy or compassion, it's sort of the difference between avoiding somebody who's on the street, looking for some, some money or crossing the street to deliberately give it to them. You know, there's a, there's a necessity.
I think that sometimes you go out of your way, um, to try to help people and you do it without any, number one, no expectation of praise or recognition. That to me is also, I think, an important part of a real community service. The motive is pure. The motivation isn't that you are looking for anything in return.
It it's sort of that, that old adage of what people do when nobody's looking. And that's both good and bad, you know? So my mom instilled a lot of those qualities, just not through words, but through her actions. And she just had this, this calm, respect that she gave to everybody didn't matter. Didn't matter where they came from.
Didn't matter what age they were. She always came at it from a place of, I respect you as a human being. And, you know, we noticed that in our household, we noticed that there was no airs...
[00:17:49] Augy: It bounces back because I think it's interesting as you're talking. And we can widen this up. When you give someone freedom, they don't want to disappoint you with that freedom.
Right? And so when you give someone respect, it comes back in that kind of spiritual logical way, like, because your mom gave that space. We didn't want to disappoint her, but yet if you're in that taking away, controlling, I'm going to control everything. Hey you, what are you doing? Hey, like that part, makes you want to go the other way?
You know what I mean? You don't care if you disappoint, you willing to break rules and, and things like that. And this does make me think about, you know, you, you go to Horton in Wolfville for high school, you go to Acadia, um, it's a mix of Acadia and Carlton for undergrad, but then the lawyer piece. So there's something around doing the right thing, serving the community.
Um, that bubbles up into a law degree. I know your dad was, was in law as well. Um, but talk a little bit about, when did that hit you as a youth, as a I dunno 16, 17, then you want to know what? I think that law is the place where I can get this serving people thing out of me is that, talk about that a bit.
[00:19:05] Peter: Yeah, I, I saw law as a, you know, a career that would, um, open, open doors to different aspects of life.
I, I decided, Augy quite early on that I wanted to be a criminal defense lawyer. That was sort of my plan, even before I left high school. Not entirely because of my father, but probably hearing some of the stories and meeting people in the community who he had defended. Uh, it seemed like, uh, you know, uh, a career that would be fulfilling that would put me in contact with people.
I didn't want to be behind a desk or. Working in isolation. I think both of my parents were very people oriented and the Pictou County, uh, Annapolis Valley connection went on for me from a very early age, because I would spend all my summers back in Pictou County. And, you know, I played baseball and hockey and all my friends were in Pictou County.
And then I would go to. For school in, in Wolfville. And so I had these two worlds in a way that, that intersected and, and it worked. And I had grandparents, as I mentioned, my, my grandfather and my grandmother were just, you know, incredible people who, who cared for us as children and my mom's mom as well, who, who lived with us in the Valley.
So, you know, it was a, in some ways it was an idyllic. Way to grow up because you, you had these adults who were in your life, who did care for you, who provided a good example? I was fortunate in that regard. And you know, as far as a career, I had two people who had, you know, as parents were. They had a very strong work ethic.
My, my both my parents worked very hard and, uh, I, you know, I was exposed to those examples of how I wanted to conduct myself personally, but professionally as well, I wanted to be able to go out and earn a living and be able to give back in, in a volunteer basis. And so I always had career in mind, but I also knew that it was much more to life than, than simply earning a paycheque.
[00:21:16] Augy: Yeah. And not that, I mean that it's, it's so nice when I do these, get into these conversations, Peter, because when you look at. Th the us as youth, young. There's a definite connection between when we were 3 and when we were 8 and when we were 12 and when we were 15, like there's a, there's a thread that when we have these conversations, I always see that thread come through, like where it makes logical sense.
How you, you, you ended up there and then there, there was a real piece around, you know, when you became a Crown Attorney in 1993, it was. The people not focusing on victim impact. Right? And that was one of the things that was, that was big for you. And that's again, community oriented, in the justice system.
What's w where where's the, where's the rights of the victim right. In this, and, and that's, that's a defense piece. We'll talk about, as you got more experience as a lawyer, and you were doing these cases, how did that become such a focus?
[00:22:15] Peter: Yeah. So practically speaking, I, I articled in Halifax at the Attorney General's department.
I CA I decided I wanted to go back to Pictou County and I opened up my own defense practice. And I was doing like a lot of different cases through legal aid certificates, says they're called. And you know, and again, I want to reference your dad because I remember, you know, sort of. Being in the legal community and your, your dad was a real force, you know, as a public defender and somebody who had been an advocate even before getting involved, you know, professionally with the law, he was somebody whose reputation was there.
And so, you know, we, we did continually sort of come in and out of our, each other's lives, Augy, mainly because of my brother, but our families as well. But, you know, to answer your question, I was doing so many different cases as young lawyers often do. And then something catastrophic happened in Pictou County.
The Westray mine blew up. There was a horrible explosion, 26 men died. There was a big public inquiry and then ultimately a criminal prosecution of the Company and the mine managers. And as a result in the, the office in New Glasgow, where I was doing most of my work in court, and then in Pictou, they had a shortage because they put all of the, uh, the prosecutors on that one big file.
And I'd been doing what they called Per Diem work. So all of a sudden I was doing a lot more criminal law as a, as a prosecutor. And. That led to full-time work. And then I really started to see some of the incredible hardships that people were experiencing both as victims, but people who were in the system who didn't really understand the way the process worked.
And as a result, they were, they were almost revictimized because of a lack of, of knowledge and understanding of, of what their Rights were. I, around that same time, I joined a couple of community groups. One of them called New Leaf, which was aimed at rehabilitating, uh, people who, who had committed acts of violence, mostly against their spouse, but also Tearmann House, which was a home for women who'd been victims.
And so then you, you know, now you're really seeing at a, at a, you know, ground, truth level what people are having to deal with. And often addictions problems, you know, poverty, uh, systemic violence and, and racism. And these are, you know, these are issues that are hard to get your arms around when you're, you're working in, in specific roles.
In my case, a prosecutor. And it was right around that time by pure coincidence that I was in Halifax. And I met Jean Charest , who was then the leader of the Progressive Conservative Party. And he was sort of in a, in a recruitment mode and he was trying to rebuild the Party after what had happened in, uh, in, in '93 when the Conservatives were basically wiped out.
So that chance encounter led to further discussions. You know, I, I had no intention, Augy, I'll be honest with you of getting in politics. I, I said I've seen enough of it from the sidelines with my father. Right. I saw it and I still think in many ways it contributed to the breakup of my parents. It's it's a tough, demanding, uh, lifestyle, many professions are, but, uh, I, I had no intention of going into politics.
I followed it. I was interested in it. But I almost sort of fell into it as a result of those early discussions and said, well, I'll try it. I'll give it a try. I probably won't be successful in it. And then I can come back and continue my practice of law and something bizarre. Again, you talk about how sometimes you, you react to somebody telling you that you can or can't do something.
I was told by the Chief Prosecutor in Nova Scotia that I was forbidden to run for office. I said, wait, no, you, you, you can't tell me that I, can't not, put my name on a ballot. I mean, that's a fundamental, right. And they fired me when I did. So I had to sue, I had to sue the Province of Nova Scotia and it went on for some time and I didn't want that to be my, uh, my entrance into public life, but it, you know, it certainly, it garnered a lot of news and attention and probably in some ways unexpectedly helped me, uh, to win the first time in, uh, in 1997.
It's certainly hard, you know, it, it, it, it teaches you some lessons that, you know, you can get knocked down pretty quickly. And of course, as you've experienced your, your life lesson is, is not getting knocked down. It's it's getting up again.
[00:27:15] Augy: Well, yeah. And also just bring, cause we're talking with so many connections between us, but then there's the athletic prowess thing, right?
Like, so you played rugby, you played hockey, you're known as. The Grinder, like you're a guy that gets in the mix. And so I was like that too. I played a physical brand of basketball and, and, and, um, a gritty kind of style. And it's interesting speaking to someone at work around who played hockey. This is an Acadia guy that did well in hockey and he had that same approach.
And so that approach. Flows into our public life. It flows into our professional life. Like there is a part of me that takes on challenges professionally. Like I'm an athlete. I can't help it. It just, this, this knob turns and, um, I'm now being challenged and there's this energy that comes up, that came up at game time that came up in athletics.
And so I, that's how I see that with you. And I want to encapsulate, and I'm doing this purposely where we're not going to talk about all the fantastic things. You know, people partisan could say, oh, Peter MacKay this, Peter MacKay that, he's a great guy, not a great guy, whatever. I'm not into that. We're we're connected.
But, but I do want to talk about if we could, in order to kind of encapsulate it is talk as you now, Jean Charest, you say you're going to try in '97. You're going into politics. There's three pieces. I want you to talk about. One is provincial politics in the community, then national politics. And we're not even going to get into the specifics of what just what's your viewpoint on that and reflection and then international, because I think that's the part of your life that I was always kind of following.
So Provincially. I know, again, you didn't just follow your dad. There's all kinds of reasons why you got into it. What was your view of provincial political community?
[00:29:06] Peter: Yeah, I, and I'll come immediately to that, but just to finish a thought on, on sport, um, you know, you learn a lot of lessons in life around ballparks and gymnasiums and, uh, and fields and rinks.
And, uh, I met a lot of great people who I still feel connected to in large part because of sports and some of those life lessons, you know, about teammates and teamwork and, you know, overcoming injuries and difficulties. And so like you, I found that a really important part of, uh, how I applied myself to certain tasks professionally after you, you know, you get to a point where you have to let go and your body tells you, you have to let go.
And I, I saw you play many times Augy and, uh, you absolutely were, the hardest working guy on the floor. And, uh, that always impressed me. And I think you, you took that kind of, you know, 'I'm going to drive through' to other aspects of your life as well. Provincial politics was something I, I, you know, again, followed sort of on the periphery and you, you knew the main players in the Premier and people who were in various roles.
Robert Stanfield was a guy who. Y, you know, was, it was a larger than life figure. And he was the person who kind of recruited my father and the way Charest had, had recruited me. So he was a guy who, again, I heard my father speak of, I had brushed up against him, you know, briefly as a child in various parts of my life.
So I knew that provincial politics was also a way that you could impact on your community. But I think, you know, when it came down to the choice, it was. Because my father had had this federal politics experience because Charest was somebody he had worked with was probably part of the impetus to why he reached out to me in the first instance.
And I was drawn to that. To look, you know, not just beyond my hometown or my community or my province, but I started to see the bigger picture of how, you know, federal politics is really where some of the big levers that you may want to pull, uh, exists and the Parliament of Canada. And, and this is Augy, I guess, what was the major consideration for me?
I was working in a courtroom. I was dealing with the criminal code. We were, in my opinion, seeing some of the failings of the justice system, whether it was the Youth Criminal Justice Act or the Young Offenders Act, as it was, uh, victims, as I spoke of who were traumatized and were often overlooked in terms of how the courts were dealing with them.
I said, well, you know, where are the laws in this country made? Well, for the most part in the criminal justice system, they're made in Ottawa. And so I guess in my naive way, I thought, well, if I really want to change law, That's the place to do it. If I can get to Ottawa, if I can get elected, maybe I can in some small way, be in a position to change some of these laws and, you know, fast forward.
And this is not to sound grandiose, but one of the last things I did before I left Ottawa in 2014-15 as Minister of Justice was introduced Canada's first victims, bill of rights. And if there was one thing, and there's a number of things that I'm proud of and things that I wish I could change or do more or less of, as you say, Uh, but that victim's bill of rights, I think will stand the test of time and it will have the broader impact of giving victims, a better sense of, of where their rights really exist in a criminal justice system that will help them and their families.
[00:32:50] Augy: Yeah. And that's, again, it's such a, such a line or a thread in the story, because that's what you wanted to do even before you knew where you're going to be able to pull that lever. You know, you want it to do that. So that, that that's, uh, again, I think that I don't know whether it's a calling or not, but when I speak to people in the Podcast and they talk about how they started and where they are now, there's such a, um, there's such a combinate.
There's such a, I can see it. I can see how. You got there. Now, the other question for me, and this is the international piece is that I, I taught in the Caribbean for 10 years. I always enjoyed traveling as a Canadian, um, in some of the portfolios that you had. Um, and this is including Minister of Foreign Affairs.
What was it like in like, what status do we have as Canadians? And I don't want to, like, I know it could be generalized, but how did you feel representing our Country, globally?
[00:33:48] Peter: Well, there's an enormous sense of pride. And I think that Canada and you've experienced this, Canada does, uh, represent, uh, a bit of a beacon, uh, for many people who are living in, you know, in countries that are struggling countries that are, are really feeling the effects of drought and, uh, war and conflict.
And, you know, many, many people aspire to come to this country. It's it's. Uh, as a beacon of, of human rights and opportunity and, and, and Canada's been a country that has given mightily, uh, through foreign aid, um, through wars and peacekeeping. And so when you represent your country and you attend meetings, or you go to visit foreign countries, hopefully to bring goodwill and in some cases, good news too, to make announcements, whether they be on trade, whether they be.
In relation to partnering. Uh, I did some work in the Caribbean as well, both with defense and justice, where we were helping them to build a Coast Guard. We were helping them to increase their capacity to cut down on, on trafficking or human trafficking. Some of those really difficult issues. And so, you know, a bit like this Jersey behind me, you're, you're pulling on your Country's Jersey.
You're representing what you believe are really important values. And, and, you know, those include will what this podcast is all about. I mean, how do you help people build themselves up? And you know, that old expression about pull yourself up by your bootstraps, but if you don't have boots, um, and, and many of these countries have, you know, have such a, a, a base existence that they really need countries like Canada to reach out.
And, you know, one of one. Really, I guess eye-opening experience for me when I was Minister of Defense was going to Afghanistan and Augy. It was like going back in time to biblical times where people were living an agrarian life on the land, literally in houses with mud floors, they had no human rights.
The Taliban were an organization that didn't allow girls to go to school. There was no central government. There was no support systems. And, you know, putting politics aside, Canada was there building schools, inoculating children against polio, uh, giving them an opportunity to return to some semblance of an economy.
And, you know, again, we saw the collapse of that country just in recent months, but they had 20 years of some kind of a peace dividend where they were allowed to experience, in some small way. Uh, what their country's potential could be. So, uh, you know, I I've really, I feel entirely blessed to have had those experiences, uh, to have traveled on behalf of my country to have been a part of hopefully changing the trajectory of some of those countries who are really having a hard time.
[00:36:57] Augy: Yeah. And I think about, you know, even metaphorically you're putting on the Paul Henderson Jersey metaphorically as you, you, you do this work and, and, and, and having that prestige of scoring that goal or doing what you can do to save people. And I use that analogy and I just have to add a piece, Peter, which I just, you know, we know that with the indigenous community and some of the things that we have, I don't want to paint Canada, that we can give that, that yin yang side of it and say, we do a lot of good.
Oh, you also have a lot of things as you know, that that, that we are responsible for that we set up that are truly Canadian that are also not areas of pride, whether it be residential schools or, you know, um, uh, you know, we think about the missing and murdered indigenous women, we think about Africville we think about, so from who my dad is and where I come from, there is a sense of I've got this weird two sides of me.
That's very proud to be a Canadian. But then there's another side of me. That's super critical of some of the equity issues and, and colonial issues in Canada. And I would feel remiss if I didn't balance that out because I am proud of the way you represented Nova Scotia in Canada. But then I also know that I wouldn't be able to have a, a, a discussion like this without at least mentioning.
The other side, that there's a lot of issues that are purely Canadian, that we should not be proud of.
[00:38:27] Peter: Yeah, no. And I'm glad you did Augy because you know, you and I have had the opportunity to have some really honest discussions about, you know, where we go from here. And the, where we go from here has to be informed by some of those historic wrongs. You mentioned residential schools, the school for African Nova Scotian.
Uh, the treatment of people. Look, I come from, you know, Pictou County and the town of New Glasgow was where Viola Desmond was arrested for sitting in a whites only section of the theater. I mean, that's a painful part of our history and the segregation that existed in, in my community, in my lifetime, is something that we're still wrestling with.
I'll tell you just a quick reference that I am proud of is that when Condoleezza Rice. Who was the first female black Secretary of State and a brilliant woman that grew up in segregated Alabama came to Nova Scotia to thank our Province for how we responded to 9/11. And I convinced her to come to Pictou County.
And one of the places that I wanted to show her along the Pictou waterfront was a monument to the Black Batallion. And that was a battalion that was raised in Pictou County and Colchester County. And they were not allowed to serve as frontline soldiers. They were construction battalion, but of course, when they got to France and were involved in the fighting, they gave them rifles and they did what every other soldier did in defensive of freedom.
And they did it in ways that were never properly recognized. And there was one member of that battalion named Jeremiah Jones
[00:40:09] Augy: That's my Great Great Grandfather
[00:40:10] Peter: and he should have been given. Yeah. And he should have been given the Victoria Cross. I know. And I know, you know, this story and he should have got that recognition for his heroics and he didn't because he was black.
And so I, number one, I wanted to show Condoleezza Rice because of. You know, black Americans were not allowed to serve at all. And so w what I'm saying is that our, our histories, um, different in some ways, not better, not worse by comparison, but there is a lot of. Important muscle memory that we need to invoke to get us to a better place of equality and inclusion and justice.
And I know that you have made this much of your life's work and revisiting it in a way. Um, objectively and it's inevitably going to be emotional because you know, these, these were deeply offensive and hurtful times in many ways, you know, just to finish the story on Jeremiah Jones, I was Minister of Defense and we gave the Military Medal of Honor to the family in Truro.
And I believe it was his sister, uh, who was in her nineties who accepted it on behalf of the family. And you know, that doesn't erase anything of what happened. But it at least is, you know, it's part of the reconciliation. It's part of the proper recognition. You're never going to be able to write those historic wrongs, but you can change public attitudes and ideas.
I mean, apologies are one thing. These are symbols, I suppose. But, you know, more importantly, it's, it's ensuring that we never ever make these types of terrible policy decisions, uh, personal decisions. Anyway, I can't tell you anything about that. Other than some of the experiences that I had, um, have stayed with me and will continue to hopefully help me to raise my children in a way that they'll.
Have these lessons earlier in their lives, perhaps than I did and be part of the generation that really becomes, you know, that panacea of, of acceptance and inclusion.
[00:42:41] Augy: So you're right in. And I just was thinking to the concept of restorative justice or healing. I think that, you know, we can never go, someone hurts their leg.
All we can do is heal that leg and make them feel better. I just like, I think that there's a piece of restorative justice, which is acknowledging the hurt, acknowledging the trauma. And, and, and in, in what we can do, and this is part of community work too, isn't it like restorative justice. And I think that's something that is, is a very strong concept in 2021 that we have to keep in mind because some people feel really defensive and guilty about what happened in the past.
Well, it wasn't me. I wasn't there. Right. But you're here now. And so in the present, you can be proud of the restorative process. And so I appreciate that we, we added that discussion, but when you talk about your children and this is a great kind of segue into, to the end, you know, kind of tailing off our conversation, which I thoroughly enjoyed and learned so much from, was now in full circle, your back.
And in 2012, you got married, you have three beautiful children. You're now back here. I see you often, to be honest. Um, and, and so the community comes full circle. And so you gave up a lot. There's many people that would say, oh, Peter should be still doing this and doing that. And you chose to circle back to the small community, of Pictou County.
How does that feel?
[00:44:07] Peter: Well, I, I feel like the luckiest guy alive because I get to be around familiar places and faces. I hope that my children will, in some small way, have similar experiences of being immersed in, in a community that while imperfect. Um, to me is more caring, is more apt to teach some of those smaller town values.
I mean, I got involved in, in Special Olympics when I was here growing up because of my cousin. I became a big brother in the Big Brother, Big Sisters program. When I was at Dalhousie. I still serve on a number of boards, including Wounded Warriors for, for soldiers who have suffered because of their service, those type of community-based organizations.
And just being around people, um, being part of, you know, a local church, uh, the local firefighters who hold dinners and do vaccinations and, you know, outreach, those, those experiences to me are irreplaceable. And it's not to say that you can't. Get that in a, in a larger community or, or in any other community for that matter.
What I know is that a, this is a very special place. It's a, it's a corner of the earth that I have a really, I feel an innate attachment to. Um, and I, and I, you know, I, I feel attached to other parts of the province to, and including in the valley, but, um, Pictou County to me is, is home and. Life has come full circle.
I hope there's still a little bit of space and a little bit of runway in that circle. And, uh, you know, I, I had kids a little later in life than you did Augy, but you know, it, it changes you in ways that you don't even realize are happening, you know, as you start to see things through their eyes, as you start to experience these things again, that you did in your life.
And, and hopefully you can bestow a little bit of wisdom and, maybe take the, the example of our parents and in how we raise our kids to, to care about the people around them, uh, to make good decisions for themselves and, uh, and to be good citizens. Ultimately, I don't think there's any greater calling than to, um, raise good citizens in, in, in your community and in your Country.
[00:46:27] Augy: Uh, you, you hit it. It's a great way to wrap up Peter, because that thing around Empathize Others: is something I thought about for many, many years of doing equity work, diversity work, talking about changing society. How can we make an, and I just came to the realization that we have to teach our children to Empathize Others:.
So if someone's in a wheelchair and you're not, if someone. Is from, uh, Somali and you're not, if somebody is not, you're a boy and they're a girl, like from very young ages, get them to appreciate difference and diversity and empathize with others, you know, and, and so beautiful for you to hear that. And I know that you're going to bring that you and Nazanin will bring that to your, to your children and, and that that's, Khalil Gibran says that he loves the Bow just as much as the Arrow.
In the poem, The Prophet. And I see that, I know my sons are going to go further than me and, and, and your children are going to go further than, than you, but I just want to really thank you so much, Peter. I mean, I've always, always feel connected to you and even this crazy how we brought up things in this podcast that I forgot about the ways that we're connected including, Jeremiah Jones, right.
[00:47:41] Peter: We've had these occasions to talk, um, you know, both informally and, and hopefully Augy. I say this, sincerely, I hope we'll have a chance to do more of that, but to also work together because you know, you're a guy who is a force for good, uh, you're somebody who has dedicated so much of himself. Uh, to the betterment of others, um, you know, there there's people that you meet in your life that you, you really just wish you had more time to spend with them.
I mean, I was lucky in the sense that I, I met Nazanin at a point in my life where I was probably living an unbalanced life in politics, and she brought me back to center. Uh, you know, she came here to this country as a child from a, you know, a really dysfunctional place in Iran where they were, there was all kinds of persecution and, and she, you know, made her life's work, uh, really being an advocate for children.
And so I, I live in awe of some of the things that she's done and some of the work that she continues to do. And it's great more than anything else to be inspired by people in your life. And you are a person of inspiration to me.
[00:48:53] Augy: Well, I really appreciate that Peter and making the time I was looking forward to this all day, right?
Like couldn't wait to, to get set up. So I really appreciate you and we're going to be connected. And, uh, and, and as a, as a Nova Scotian to another Nova Scotian, very proud of the things you do.
[00:49:11] Peter: Thank you very much Augy. And I look forward to seeing you again soon, my friend.
Empathize Others: The Podcast ©2021 Strongcoffee Media Group - Horizon Line Films Ltd.
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[00:00:00] Augy: The international community, global politics, political heavy-hitters. These are often people who are in the news, documentaries, in the newspaper, and we see them as untouchable. Well today's guest is very touchable, Nova Scotia roots, roots, and politics roots in the law. But when we unpack all of the things that this person is about.
He grew up having a respect for community and a dedication to community. I'm proud to say that today's guest is Peter MacKay.
Welcome back everyone to Empathize Others: The Podcast, today's guest is a long time friend of mine and a family friend. In fact, um, I call his younger brother my best friend, uh, but I've always been connected to this person and seeing them go from. A guy in a fancy convertible car when I was a kid watching him in law school to, you know, watching him on TV on an international stage.
And so I'm so happy and proud today to be, um, conversating and connecting with, um, someone that I've always kind of looked up to as far as leadership and, uh, someone from Nova Scotia and, uh, you know, today we're going to really, get into what community means on a much larger level. And our guest is Peter McKay.
[00:01:53] Peter: Augy, it's great to be with you. And I have to return the compliment because I have followed your career both as an athlete, and then later as a coach and administrator and somebody who has always put community at the center of their lives. And we, you know, we were on parallel course, uh, throughout much of our upbringing here in Nova Scotia in part because of my brother and your friendship.
But, uh, you're somebody who I've always admired as well. I must say
[00:02:23] Augy: it's a lot of flattery, Peter. I really appreciate that because you know, my level and your level, I don't see them the same, but more than just that, and we're going to start early. I think that there's something that we'll find out in this Podcast between us and in, in how we grew up was family has a lot to do with it.
And the way that we were brought up, because I always say that my household. Was I think almost rule number one was you do things for community. There were people in and out of our house all the time. Um, and it was, and it wasn't, you know, it was from all shapes, sizes, colors, diversity was part of it. But if it was one thing, is that our house, wasn't just our house in our lives.
[00:03:06] Peter: That's exactly the type of atmosphere that, that I experienced. Uh, my dad, of course, people remember my father because of his involvement in politics, but it was really my mother that had arguably the biggest influence on me. And, you know, we were in a single parent situation. Where my mum was working, uh, in the, sort of in the international volunteer space, she started, uh, uh, or was part of an organization called the Women's Health Education Network.
She worked at both Dalhousie University. Then later at Acadia. And she, my mom was Irish. She had a very, uh, outward looking personality and was always interested in, in the international world and, and events. And so she would bring people to our home for dinners and we would celebrate. Uh, you know, festivals and, and, and, uh, holidays that weren't even necessarily Canadian holidays.
And so we, we learned a lot about other cultures, uh, growing up and, and I, I look back on that and it was, it was very formative because it taught you some of the really important lessons in life about, you know, looking beyond your own community and looking at other people's perspectives, getting, uh, a view of,
other cultures and how that influence your own opinions on, on many different things. And so I felt really blessed, you know, in many ways we, we maybe didn't have the same things that everybody else had, but we always had a really interesting discussion around the dinner table and we got to meet some fascinating people.
[00:04:43] Augy: Yeah. And when you and I, and we've talked about this many times before our upbringings were, were eerily similar because, you know, so your dad's Elmer MacKay and, and your mom is in Wolfville and, and she's, uh, uh, for women's rights. She's a, she's a, uh, a foundational personality around that. And then my dad's Rocky Jones and my mom's Joan Jones.
And so my dad had an actually, it was funny. I met your dad. I was at Lorne, you know, with your dad one time. And, and me and Andy are up there and he's talking to me about his connection to my dad, right? And the work that they did in the seventies, which sometimes people don't even know that. And so there's such similarities between.
What we were getting from male energy in our life and what we were getting from female energy in our life, you know? And, and when I look at what you do and what I do, I think that there's a real mix of, of, of having this viewpoint. That's so wide, right. Because our moms were power sources. Right. So even though people would strangely connect us to, oh, your Rocky's son or your Elmer's son, it's actually where our, our mom's sons right.
In, in the upbringing. Just to circle you back. Um, you know, being in New Glasgow and Lorne and, and growing up, talk a little bit about your early time with your dad and what community meant to him. Cause you're already spoke about, you know, obviously you spent some time in Wolfville with your mom, but let's circle a little back bit to Pictou and New Glasgow area.
And, and what, what were you seeing from your dad at a young age that, that tipped you off to communities?
[00:06:22] Peter: Yeah, that's right. Augy. My dad was obviously in, in my formative years, you know, when I started to think about the world beyond my home, um, my dad was, was very much involved in politics. He was elected in 71 and you know, it was a different time in terms of federal politicians.
They would go away to Ottawa and they would be there for weeks, sometimes months at a time. So there was a lot of separation, but, you know, it was clear to me that my dad was doing something that you know was important and was about representing our community. It was about helping people in so many different ways.
I remember being at his constituency office and he had people in the office that were constantly helping others with employment or insurance or issues that, you know, affected their lives. And so it became, you know, a part of, of my perception that, you know, we were there to serve others. You know, it was, it was important that you, you gave of yourself to the community.
And, and so that was instilled in my mother, from my mother in different ways. But my dad here in Pictou County and his father before him, um, You know, we're, we're very much about public service. And I would say my grandfather, who was also a very, uh, formative person for me, and he was a simple man. He ran a saw mill.
He, uh, was very sort of stoic and he didn't say a lot, but when he did it, it was impactful and he would do things, Augy. And I heard about these things much later in my life when I was practicing law. But. He would hear of somebody who was in trouble, for example, a behind on their taxes. And he would go down and pay their taxes for them at the, at the local courthouse, because they were facing foreclosure.
He, I remember I defended a guy once for what I thought was a, you know, an overreach by the police. And so I defended them and got them off the charge. And when he came to pay me, I said, no, no, I I'm not accepting payment for this. This was, this. This should never have happened to you. And you shouldn't have to pay.
And he, he broke down, he got very emotional and he said, I, I, you know, I can't believe that this is happening and you're, you're doing this. And I said, well, why wouldn't I? And he said, I remember my father telling me a story about your grandfather. And we were building a house and we ran out of money and we had no lumber.
And we were living in, in this sort of basement of this house. And he said and three trucks pulled into the yard and they unloaded the lumber. And, you know, I remember hearing after, from my dad that it was your grandfather and he said, look, you know, just take this lumber, finish your house. And, and don't say a word about it.
And that, that kind of just quiet, uh, compassionate, you know, giving back is, is critically important. And frankly, we, we need more of that to make our community stronger and, I have always felt blessed that I was exposed to some of those early experiences from both my parents and my granddad.
[00:09:38] Augy: Yeah. And that's that?
So like you have my head exploding around. Now I'm thinking generationally because when we go back to our grandfathers and our grandmothers, and we think about pre urban, kind of when people lived more rurally, generally, even Halifax was small. All of that. Community was not as big as like you, you were, you were immersed in community.
Like, so whether it was harvest time, whether it was building houses, it was very difficult for you to be, specially if you were a leader in that town, it was very hard for you to isolate yourself and say, I'm making money, from these people in the community, but I'm not going to support them. That's very difficult.
And I say that because you just said, I think we need more of that because it's a lot easier to make money now and be in a good kind of comfortable position and not give back. But I think when we think about our grandfathers and our grandmothers and also our fathers and mothers, that was very difficult for them.
I think community was almost a given, let me put it that way. And.
[00:10:42] Peter: I think that's right Augy, in part, as you said, because of the size and the population growth. It was personal, you know, in communities because people knew, as you just mentioned, who was doing well and maybe who was struggling and you had to you and you inevitably encounter those people on the street, in church,
in a store and you know, and your kids went to school together. And I mean, this seems hard to believe, uh, given, you know, we're, we're close in age, but I went to a one-room school in Lorne and, uh, you know, there was no running water. Like, it seems like an episode of Little House on the Prairie when I think back on it, but I just caught the tail end
of that generation, where before they started bussing kids to rural schools and it was primary to six and, you know, again, the, the community was woven together and there was sort of a, a fiber that brought everybody together and you know, it again seems like a bygone era. You'd help people with their hay or painting their barn,
and that also built a really close ties. You know, it was pre-internet, it was pre cable television. So people, uh, inevitably did things together too, in the community centers, they got together for cards and dances and, and bands would come in and play. And so some of that is, is inevitably lost just through the evolution and the way society now structures itself.
But I think there's elements of that, that we could preserve and promote. And part of it is that the very basis of your show and that is demonstrable empathy and understanding for the people around you and the, and the, I think the obligation to give back.
[00:12:31] Augy: Yeah. And you're exactly right, Peter, because I think there's now, and I'm glad you caught that.
I mean, the essence of this show is not only to Empathize other people, but I find all of the guests that have been on and people that we invite on are people that have this. Connection to community in 2021, like in the modern times, but that connection now needs to have some energy behind it. Like it was almost a given in the 50's, 60's, 70's that there was communal.
And I think now what I really would love is when people are listening to the podcast and being inspired by. Peter McKays and Dion Walcotts and Folamis isn't the people that have been on the podcast. I want them to realize that yeah, you have to make an effort. Like there that's the difference, right? Is that it's not just pressing like, or, um, you know, watching a podcast or because we can easily isolate ourselves.
But I do think that there's something. That can never go away, which is the classic human element that we have to help other people. And we have to give back. We have to whether it's coaching, whether it's, whether it's whatever and it's being out there and I grew up like that, it comes natural. You grew up like that.
It comes natural. I would suggest to you that it doesn't come natural to everyone, to everyone. And it's a lot easier with the internet age to isolate to your own, your own family. I do want to pop now to Wolfville. And you growing up and then spending time with your mom and Wolfville cause I will say, and this is a little personal, I don't want to get too much away from having you talk, but your mom had an effect on me and, and I was maybe 14, 15 years old.
I'm from Halifax and I'm going to Wolfville to visit Andy and. Your mom was the coolest of cool man, I believe. I mean, I'm 15 years old and we're going to visit like Andy and your mom is just, she's a perfect combination of strict and watching over us. And cause I had a really like, I wasn't, I wasn't allowed, my parents wouldn't let me do whatever.
So when I said I was going to visit Andy, there had to be something. Rules around it, whatever. And your mom was just... We played basketball. We go out, we hang and, and, you know, we, we, we, were ourselves, she allowed us to be ourselves, but there was discipline and there was 'Make sure you're doing the right things.
And I'm giving you guys freedom. But just make sure that you do the right thing with that freedom'. And I can see your mom on the porch and we would come back all sweaty and yucky and she'd have drinks for us like Kool-Aid and whatever, and food. And she just accommodated us, but she allowed us freedom. I don't know how to really say how that affected me.
I can see your mom's face right now. Because of that.
[00:15:05] Peter: Well, I'm getting you're, you're making me get choked up Augy. You're you're a, you're hitting me in the heart. Cause you know, I think about my mom every day, but she, she did have that impact. I mean, she was the epitome of the, the, the welcoming mother. Um, your, you know, your parents and my parents knew each other.
So I think that there was probably an element of trust on your parents' part, knowing that you were in Wolfville and, and staying with, with Andy, because my mom Macha was, you know, she was going to keep one eye on you for sure. And she was going to also, you know, she had, she had subtle ways of, of influencing you.
She wasn't somebody who would get, you know, overly emotional, although she was an emotional person, but it was almost worse, you know, in terms of her, her style of discipline is, you know, she would sort of express disappointment. If you had done something that you didn't want you to, and just in her tone of voice, she, she could reel you in.
But she, you know, all of my friends, Andy's friends, my sisters, they. They did enjoy the freedom, but there was always a feeling. And I expect that you, you would share this. You didn't want to disappoint your parents. You didn't want to get in trouble or do something that would make them feel somehow that you hadn't lived up to what they would expect of you.
And, you know, you were speaking earlier about how it takes effort. In, in some ways to, to, to have an impact or to show empathy or compassion, it's sort of the difference between avoiding somebody who's on the street, looking for some, some money or crossing the street to deliberately give it to them. You know, there's a, there's a necessity.
I think that sometimes you go out of your way, um, to try to help people and you do it without any, number one, no expectation of praise or recognition. That to me is also, I think, an important part of a real community service. The motive is pure. The motivation isn't that you are looking for anything in return.
It it's sort of that, that old adage of what people do when nobody's looking. And that's both good and bad, you know? So my mom instilled a lot of those qualities, just not through words, but through her actions. And she just had this, this calm, respect that she gave to everybody didn't matter. Didn't matter where they came from.
Didn't matter what age they were. She always came at it from a place of, I respect you as a human being. And, you know, we noticed that in our household, we noticed that there was no airs...
[00:17:49] Augy: It bounces back because I think it's interesting as you're talking. And we can widen this up. When you give someone freedom, they don't want to disappoint you with that freedom.
Right? And so when you give someone respect, it comes back in that kind of spiritual logical way, like, because your mom gave that space. We didn't want to disappoint her, but yet if you're in that taking away, controlling, I'm going to control everything. Hey you, what are you doing? Hey, like that part, makes you want to go the other way?
You know what I mean? You don't care if you disappoint, you willing to break rules and, and things like that. And this does make me think about, you know, you, you go to Horton in Wolfville for high school, you go to Acadia, um, it's a mix of Acadia and Carlton for undergrad, but then the lawyer piece. So there's something around doing the right thing, serving the community.
Um, that bubbles up into a law degree. I know your dad was, was in law as well. Um, but talk a little bit about, when did that hit you as a youth, as a I dunno 16, 17, then you want to know what? I think that law is the place where I can get this serving people thing out of me is that, talk about that a bit.
[00:19:05] Peter: Yeah, I, I saw law as a, you know, a career that would, um, open, open doors to different aspects of life.
I, I decided, Augy quite early on that I wanted to be a criminal defense lawyer. That was sort of my plan, even before I left high school. Not entirely because of my father, but probably hearing some of the stories and meeting people in the community who he had defended. Uh, it seemed like, uh, you know, uh, a career that would be fulfilling that would put me in contact with people.
I didn't want to be behind a desk or. Working in isolation. I think both of my parents were very people oriented and the Pictou County, uh, Annapolis Valley connection went on for me from a very early age, because I would spend all my summers back in Pictou County. And, you know, I played baseball and hockey and all my friends were in Pictou County.
And then I would go to. For school in, in Wolfville. And so I had these two worlds in a way that, that intersected and, and it worked. And I had grandparents, as I mentioned, my, my grandfather and my grandmother were just, you know, incredible people who, who cared for us as children and my mom's mom as well, who, who lived with us in the Valley.
So, you know, it was a, in some ways it was an idyllic. Way to grow up because you, you had these adults who were in your life, who did care for you, who provided a good example? I was fortunate in that regard. And you know, as far as a career, I had two people who had, you know, as parents were. They had a very strong work ethic.
My, my both my parents worked very hard and, uh, I, you know, I was exposed to those examples of how I wanted to conduct myself personally, but professionally as well, I wanted to be able to go out and earn a living and be able to give back in, in a volunteer basis. And so I always had career in mind, but I also knew that it was much more to life than, than simply earning a paycheque.
[00:21:16] Augy: Yeah. And not that, I mean that it's, it's so nice when I do these, get into these conversations, Peter, because when you look at. Th the us as youth, young. There's a definite connection between when we were 3 and when we were 8 and when we were 12 and when we were 15, like there's a, there's a thread that when we have these conversations, I always see that thread come through, like where it makes logical sense.
How you, you, you ended up there and then there, there was a real piece around, you know, when you became a Crown Attorney in 1993, it was. The people not focusing on victim impact. Right? And that was one of the things that was, that was big for you. And that's again, community oriented, in the justice system.
What's w where where's the, where's the rights of the victim right. In this, and, and that's, that's a defense piece. We'll talk about, as you got more experience as a lawyer, and you were doing these cases, how did that become such a focus?
[00:22:15] Peter: Yeah. So practically speaking, I, I articled in Halifax at the Attorney General's department.
I CA I decided I wanted to go back to Pictou County and I opened up my own defense practice. And I was doing like a lot of different cases through legal aid certificates, says they're called. And you know, and again, I want to reference your dad because I remember, you know, sort of. Being in the legal community and your, your dad was a real force, you know, as a public defender and somebody who had been an advocate even before getting involved, you know, professionally with the law, he was somebody whose reputation was there.
And so, you know, we, we did continually sort of come in and out of our, each other's lives, Augy, mainly because of my brother, but our families as well. But, you know, to answer your question, I was doing so many different cases as young lawyers often do. And then something catastrophic happened in Pictou County.
The Westray mine blew up. There was a horrible explosion, 26 men died. There was a big public inquiry and then ultimately a criminal prosecution of the Company and the mine managers. And as a result in the, the office in New Glasgow, where I was doing most of my work in court, and then in Pictou, they had a shortage because they put all of the, uh, the prosecutors on that one big file.
And I'd been doing what they called Per Diem work. So all of a sudden I was doing a lot more criminal law as a, as a prosecutor. And. That led to full-time work. And then I really started to see some of the incredible hardships that people were experiencing both as victims, but people who were in the system who didn't really understand the way the process worked.
And as a result, they were, they were almost revictimized because of a lack of, of knowledge and understanding of, of what their Rights were. I, around that same time, I joined a couple of community groups. One of them called New Leaf, which was aimed at rehabilitating, uh, people who, who had committed acts of violence, mostly against their spouse, but also Tearmann House, which was a home for women who'd been victims.
And so then you, you know, now you're really seeing at a, at a, you know, ground, truth level what people are having to deal with. And often addictions problems, you know, poverty, uh, systemic violence and, and racism. And these are, you know, these are issues that are hard to get your arms around when you're, you're working in, in specific roles.
In my case, a prosecutor. And it was right around that time by pure coincidence that I was in Halifax. And I met Jean Charest , who was then the leader of the Progressive Conservative Party. And he was sort of in a, in a recruitment mode and he was trying to rebuild the Party after what had happened in, uh, in, in '93 when the Conservatives were basically wiped out.
So that chance encounter led to further discussions. You know, I, I had no intention, Augy, I'll be honest with you of getting in politics. I, I said I've seen enough of it from the sidelines with my father. Right. I saw it and I still think in many ways it contributed to the breakup of my parents. It's it's a tough, demanding, uh, lifestyle, many professions are, but, uh, I, I had no intention of going into politics.
I followed it. I was interested in it. But I almost sort of fell into it as a result of those early discussions and said, well, I'll try it. I'll give it a try. I probably won't be successful in it. And then I can come back and continue my practice of law and something bizarre. Again, you talk about how sometimes you, you react to somebody telling you that you can or can't do something.
I was told by the Chief Prosecutor in Nova Scotia that I was forbidden to run for office. I said, wait, no, you, you, you can't tell me that I, can't not, put my name on a ballot. I mean, that's a fundamental, right. And they fired me when I did. So I had to sue, I had to sue the Province of Nova Scotia and it went on for some time and I didn't want that to be my, uh, my entrance into public life, but it, you know, it certainly, it garnered a lot of news and attention and probably in some ways unexpectedly helped me, uh, to win the first time in, uh, in 1997.
It's certainly hard, you know, it, it, it, it teaches you some lessons that, you know, you can get knocked down pretty quickly. And of course, as you've experienced your, your life lesson is, is not getting knocked down. It's it's getting up again.
[00:27:15] Augy: Well, yeah. And also just bring, cause we're talking with so many connections between us, but then there's the athletic prowess thing, right?
Like, so you played rugby, you played hockey, you're known as. The Grinder, like you're a guy that gets in the mix. And so I was like that too. I played a physical brand of basketball and, and, and, um, a gritty kind of style. And it's interesting speaking to someone at work around who played hockey. This is an Acadia guy that did well in hockey and he had that same approach.
And so that approach. Flows into our public life. It flows into our professional life. Like there is a part of me that takes on challenges professionally. Like I'm an athlete. I can't help it. It just, this, this knob turns and, um, I'm now being challenged and there's this energy that comes up, that came up at game time that came up in athletics.
And so I, that's how I see that with you. And I want to encapsulate, and I'm doing this purposely where we're not going to talk about all the fantastic things. You know, people partisan could say, oh, Peter MacKay this, Peter MacKay that, he's a great guy, not a great guy, whatever. I'm not into that. We're we're connected.
But, but I do want to talk about if we could, in order to kind of encapsulate it is talk as you now, Jean Charest, you say you're going to try in '97. You're going into politics. There's three pieces. I want you to talk about. One is provincial politics in the community, then national politics. And we're not even going to get into the specifics of what just what's your viewpoint on that and reflection and then international, because I think that's the part of your life that I was always kind of following.
So Provincially. I know, again, you didn't just follow your dad. There's all kinds of reasons why you got into it. What was your view of provincial political community?
[00:29:06] Peter: Yeah, I, and I'll come immediately to that, but just to finish a thought on, on sport, um, you know, you learn a lot of lessons in life around ballparks and gymnasiums and, uh, and fields and rinks.
And, uh, I met a lot of great people who I still feel connected to in large part because of sports and some of those life lessons, you know, about teammates and teamwork and, you know, overcoming injuries and difficulties. And so like you, I found that a really important part of, uh, how I applied myself to certain tasks professionally after you, you know, you get to a point where you have to let go and your body tells you, you have to let go.
And I, I saw you play many times Augy and, uh, you absolutely were, the hardest working guy on the floor. And, uh, that always impressed me. And I think you, you took that kind of, you know, 'I'm going to drive through' to other aspects of your life as well. Provincial politics was something I, I, you know, again, followed sort of on the periphery and you, you knew the main players in the Premier and people who were in various roles.
Robert Stanfield was a guy who. Y, you know, was, it was a larger than life figure. And he was the person who kind of recruited my father and the way Charest had, had recruited me. So he was a guy who, again, I heard my father speak of, I had brushed up against him, you know, briefly as a child in various parts of my life.
So I knew that provincial politics was also a way that you could impact on your community. But I think, you know, when it came down to the choice, it was. Because my father had had this federal politics experience because Charest was somebody he had worked with was probably part of the impetus to why he reached out to me in the first instance.
And I was drawn to that. To look, you know, not just beyond my hometown or my community or my province, but I started to see the bigger picture of how, you know, federal politics is really where some of the big levers that you may want to pull, uh, exists and the Parliament of Canada. And, and this is Augy, I guess, what was the major consideration for me?
I was working in a courtroom. I was dealing with the criminal code. We were, in my opinion, seeing some of the failings of the justice system, whether it was the Youth Criminal Justice Act or the Young Offenders Act, as it was, uh, victims, as I spoke of who were traumatized and were often overlooked in terms of how the courts were dealing with them.
I said, well, you know, where are the laws in this country made? Well, for the most part in the criminal justice system, they're made in Ottawa. And so I guess in my naive way, I thought, well, if I really want to change law, That's the place to do it. If I can get to Ottawa, if I can get elected, maybe I can in some small way, be in a position to change some of these laws and, you know, fast forward.
And this is not to sound grandiose, but one of the last things I did before I left Ottawa in 2014-15 as Minister of Justice was introduced Canada's first victims, bill of rights. And if there was one thing, and there's a number of things that I'm proud of and things that I wish I could change or do more or less of, as you say, Uh, but that victim's bill of rights, I think will stand the test of time and it will have the broader impact of giving victims, a better sense of, of where their rights really exist in a criminal justice system that will help them and their families.
[00:32:50] Augy: Yeah. And that's, again, it's such a, such a line or a thread in the story, because that's what you wanted to do even before you knew where you're going to be able to pull that lever. You know, you want it to do that. So that, that that's, uh, again, I think that I don't know whether it's a calling or not, but when I speak to people in the Podcast and they talk about how they started and where they are now, there's such a, um, there's such a combinate.
There's such a, I can see it. I can see how. You got there. Now, the other question for me, and this is the international piece is that I, I taught in the Caribbean for 10 years. I always enjoyed traveling as a Canadian, um, in some of the portfolios that you had. Um, and this is including Minister of Foreign Affairs.
What was it like in like, what status do we have as Canadians? And I don't want to, like, I know it could be generalized, but how did you feel representing our Country, globally?
[00:33:48] Peter: Well, there's an enormous sense of pride. And I think that Canada and you've experienced this, Canada does, uh, represent, uh, a bit of a beacon, uh, for many people who are living in, you know, in countries that are struggling countries that are, are really feeling the effects of drought and, uh, war and conflict.
And, you know, many, many people aspire to come to this country. It's it's. Uh, as a beacon of, of human rights and opportunity and, and, and Canada's been a country that has given mightily, uh, through foreign aid, um, through wars and peacekeeping. And so when you represent your country and you attend meetings, or you go to visit foreign countries, hopefully to bring goodwill and in some cases, good news too, to make announcements, whether they be on trade, whether they be.
In relation to partnering. Uh, I did some work in the Caribbean as well, both with defense and justice, where we were helping them to build a Coast Guard. We were helping them to increase their capacity to cut down on, on trafficking or human trafficking. Some of those really difficult issues. And so, you know, a bit like this Jersey behind me, you're, you're pulling on your Country's Jersey.
You're representing what you believe are really important values. And, and, you know, those include will what this podcast is all about. I mean, how do you help people build themselves up? And you know, that old expression about pull yourself up by your bootstraps, but if you don't have boots, um, and, and many of these countries have, you know, have such a, a, a base existence that they really need countries like Canada to reach out.
And, you know, one of one. Really, I guess eye-opening experience for me when I was Minister of Defense was going to Afghanistan and Augy. It was like going back in time to biblical times where people were living an agrarian life on the land, literally in houses with mud floors, they had no human rights.
The Taliban were an organization that didn't allow girls to go to school. There was no central government. There was no support systems. And, you know, putting politics aside, Canada was there building schools, inoculating children against polio, uh, giving them an opportunity to return to some semblance of an economy.
And, you know, again, we saw the collapse of that country just in recent months, but they had 20 years of some kind of a peace dividend where they were allowed to experience, in some small way. Uh, what their country's potential could be. So, uh, you know, I I've really, I feel entirely blessed to have had those experiences, uh, to have traveled on behalf of my country to have been a part of hopefully changing the trajectory of some of those countries who are really having a hard time.
[00:36:57] Augy: Yeah. And I think about, you know, even metaphorically you're putting on the Paul Henderson Jersey metaphorically as you, you, you do this work and, and, and, and having that prestige of scoring that goal or doing what you can do to save people. And I use that analogy and I just have to add a piece, Peter, which I just, you know, we know that with the indigenous community and some of the things that we have, I don't want to paint Canada, that we can give that, that yin yang side of it and say, we do a lot of good.
Oh, you also have a lot of things as you know, that that, that we are responsible for that we set up that are truly Canadian that are also not areas of pride, whether it be residential schools or, you know, um, uh, you know, we think about the missing and murdered indigenous women, we think about Africville we think about, so from who my dad is and where I come from, there is a sense of I've got this weird two sides of me.
That's very proud to be a Canadian. But then there's another side of me. That's super critical of some of the equity issues and, and colonial issues in Canada. And I would feel remiss if I didn't balance that out because I am proud of the way you represented Nova Scotia in Canada. But then I also know that I wouldn't be able to have a, a, a discussion like this without at least mentioning.
The other side, that there's a lot of issues that are purely Canadian, that we should not be proud of.
[00:38:27] Peter: Yeah, no. And I'm glad you did Augy because you know, you and I have had the opportunity to have some really honest discussions about, you know, where we go from here. And the, where we go from here has to be informed by some of those historic wrongs. You mentioned residential schools, the school for African Nova Scotian.
Uh, the treatment of people. Look, I come from, you know, Pictou County and the town of New Glasgow was where Viola Desmond was arrested for sitting in a whites only section of the theater. I mean, that's a painful part of our history and the segregation that existed in, in my community, in my lifetime, is something that we're still wrestling with.
I'll tell you just a quick reference that I am proud of is that when Condoleezza Rice. Who was the first female black Secretary of State and a brilliant woman that grew up in segregated Alabama came to Nova Scotia to thank our Province for how we responded to 9/11. And I convinced her to come to Pictou County.
And one of the places that I wanted to show her along the Pictou waterfront was a monument to the Black Batallion. And that was a battalion that was raised in Pictou County and Colchester County. And they were not allowed to serve as frontline soldiers. They were construction battalion, but of course, when they got to France and were involved in the fighting, they gave them rifles and they did what every other soldier did in defensive of freedom.
And they did it in ways that were never properly recognized. And there was one member of that battalion named Jeremiah Jones
[00:40:09] Augy: That's my Great Great Grandfather
[00:40:10] Peter: and he should have been given. Yeah. And he should have been given the Victoria Cross. I know. And I know, you know, this story and he should have got that recognition for his heroics and he didn't because he was black.
And so I, number one, I wanted to show Condoleezza Rice because of. You know, black Americans were not allowed to serve at all. And so w what I'm saying is that our, our histories, um, different in some ways, not better, not worse by comparison, but there is a lot of. Important muscle memory that we need to invoke to get us to a better place of equality and inclusion and justice.
And I know that you have made this much of your life's work and revisiting it in a way. Um, objectively and it's inevitably going to be emotional because you know, these, these were deeply offensive and hurtful times in many ways, you know, just to finish the story on Jeremiah Jones, I was Minister of Defense and we gave the Military Medal of Honor to the family in Truro.
And I believe it was his sister, uh, who was in her nineties who accepted it on behalf of the family. And you know, that doesn't erase anything of what happened. But it at least is, you know, it's part of the reconciliation. It's part of the proper recognition. You're never going to be able to write those historic wrongs, but you can change public attitudes and ideas.
I mean, apologies are one thing. These are symbols, I suppose. But, you know, more importantly, it's, it's ensuring that we never ever make these types of terrible policy decisions, uh, personal decisions. Anyway, I can't tell you anything about that. Other than some of the experiences that I had, um, have stayed with me and will continue to hopefully help me to raise my children in a way that they'll.
Have these lessons earlier in their lives, perhaps than I did and be part of the generation that really becomes, you know, that panacea of, of acceptance and inclusion.
[00:42:41] Augy: So you're right in. And I just was thinking to the concept of restorative justice or healing. I think that, you know, we can never go, someone hurts their leg.
All we can do is heal that leg and make them feel better. I just like, I think that there's a piece of restorative justice, which is acknowledging the hurt, acknowledging the trauma. And, and, and in, in what we can do, and this is part of community work too, isn't it like restorative justice. And I think that's something that is, is a very strong concept in 2021 that we have to keep in mind because some people feel really defensive and guilty about what happened in the past.
Well, it wasn't me. I wasn't there. Right. But you're here now. And so in the present, you can be proud of the restorative process. And so I appreciate that we, we added that discussion, but when you talk about your children and this is a great kind of segue into, to the end, you know, kind of tailing off our conversation, which I thoroughly enjoyed and learned so much from, was now in full circle, your back.
And in 2012, you got married, you have three beautiful children. You're now back here. I see you often, to be honest. Um, and, and so the community comes full circle. And so you gave up a lot. There's many people that would say, oh, Peter should be still doing this and doing that. And you chose to circle back to the small community, of Pictou County.
How does that feel?
[00:44:07] Peter: Well, I, I feel like the luckiest guy alive because I get to be around familiar places and faces. I hope that my children will, in some small way, have similar experiences of being immersed in, in a community that while imperfect. Um, to me is more caring, is more apt to teach some of those smaller town values.
I mean, I got involved in, in Special Olympics when I was here growing up because of my cousin. I became a big brother in the Big Brother, Big Sisters program. When I was at Dalhousie. I still serve on a number of boards, including Wounded Warriors for, for soldiers who have suffered because of their service, those type of community-based organizations.
And just being around people, um, being part of, you know, a local church, uh, the local firefighters who hold dinners and do vaccinations and, you know, outreach, those, those experiences to me are irreplaceable. And it's not to say that you can't. Get that in a, in a larger community or, or in any other community for that matter.
What I know is that a, this is a very special place. It's a, it's a corner of the earth that I have a really, I feel an innate attachment to. Um, and I, and I, you know, I, I feel attached to other parts of the province to, and including in the valley, but, um, Pictou County to me is, is home and. Life has come full circle.
I hope there's still a little bit of space and a little bit of runway in that circle. And, uh, you know, I, I had kids a little later in life than you did Augy, but you know, it, it changes you in ways that you don't even realize are happening, you know, as you start to see things through their eyes, as you start to experience these things again, that you did in your life.
And, and hopefully you can bestow a little bit of wisdom and, maybe take the, the example of our parents and in how we raise our kids to, to care about the people around them, uh, to make good decisions for themselves and, uh, and to be good citizens. Ultimately, I don't think there's any greater calling than to, um, raise good citizens in, in, in your community and in your Country.
[00:46:27] Augy: Uh, you, you hit it. It's a great way to wrap up Peter, because that thing around Empathize Others: is something I thought about for many, many years of doing equity work, diversity work, talking about changing society. How can we make an, and I just came to the realization that we have to teach our children to Empathize Others:.
So if someone's in a wheelchair and you're not, if someone. Is from, uh, Somali and you're not, if somebody is not, you're a boy and they're a girl, like from very young ages, get them to appreciate difference and diversity and empathize with others, you know, and, and so beautiful for you to hear that. And I know that you're going to bring that you and Nazanin will bring that to your, to your children and, and that that's, Khalil Gibran says that he loves the Bow just as much as the Arrow.
In the poem, The Prophet. And I see that, I know my sons are going to go further than me and, and, and your children are going to go further than, than you, but I just want to really thank you so much, Peter. I mean, I've always, always feel connected to you and even this crazy how we brought up things in this podcast that I forgot about the ways that we're connected including, Jeremiah Jones, right.
[00:47:41] Peter: We've had these occasions to talk, um, you know, both informally and, and hopefully Augy. I say this, sincerely, I hope we'll have a chance to do more of that, but to also work together because you know, you're a guy who is a force for good, uh, you're somebody who has dedicated so much of himself. Uh, to the betterment of others, um, you know, there there's people that you meet in your life that you, you really just wish you had more time to spend with them.
I mean, I was lucky in the sense that I, I met Nazanin at a point in my life where I was probably living an unbalanced life in politics, and she brought me back to center. Uh, you know, she came here to this country as a child from a, you know, a really dysfunctional place in Iran where they were, there was all kinds of persecution and, and she, you know, made her life's work, uh, really being an advocate for children.
And so I, I live in awe of some of the things that she's done and some of the work that she continues to do. And it's great more than anything else to be inspired by people in your life. And you are a person of inspiration to me.
[00:48:53] Augy: Well, I really appreciate that Peter and making the time I was looking forward to this all day, right?
Like couldn't wait to, to get set up. So I really appreciate you and we're going to be connected. And, uh, and, and as a, as a Nova Scotian to another Nova Scotian, very proud of the things you do.
[00:49:11] Peter: Thank you very much Augy. And I look forward to seeing you again soon, my friend.
Empathize Others: The Podcast ©2021 Strongcoffee Media Group - Horizon Line Films Ltd.
