Witch Hunt | Chapter 4

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This podcast is intended for mature audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
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The bizarre case of Kelly Wilson's disappearance shocked all of
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East Texas when new indictments were handed down Friday. Prosecutor
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Scott Leifert says today he's confident about the evidence he
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has to go to trial with. And he says the
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evidence is more than circumstantial.
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Evidence in regard to Kelly Wilson came up in the
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course of the investigation that we were doing on the
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sexual abuse of the children that had been taken away
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from the different members of the Kerr family. We think
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that there may be more victims, but we don't have
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any concrete evidence. We don't have any particular missing people
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that we're looking for. That's part of the investigation that
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we've got to go into.
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Over a two-day period in late January 1994, A grand
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jury in Gilmer, Texas, indicted eight people for the kidnapping, rape,
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and murder of Kelly Day Wilson, a local teenager who'd
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been missing for more than two years. Among the indicted
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were five members of a local family, the Kers. Needless
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to say, the news shocked all of us in East Texas.
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Most bizarre of all were details found not in the
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indictments themselves, but in the affidavit for a search warrant
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executed on the Kerr family property in the woods outside
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of Gilmer. In the affidavit, investigators claimed that members of
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the Kerr family were leaders of a cult that forced
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their own children to participate in satanic rituals, including the
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sacrifice of babies. If the children ever told anyone the
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same thing or worse would happen to them. In cahoots
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with the Kerrs, allegedly, was none other than James York Brown,
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the Gilmer cop who'd been leading the search for Kelly
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since day one.
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Leifert charges that as the chief investigator in the Kelly
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Wilson case, Sergeant Brown had a unique position to suppress
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and destroy evidence.
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Well, just what is the connection between Kelly Wilson's disappearance,
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Sergeant James Brown, and the Kerr family?
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Until the arrest of Sergeant James Brown, no one could
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have believed what the indictment.
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Now, Sergeant Brown stood accused of three of the most
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heinous crimes imaginable. If convicted, he could face the death penalty.
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Folks in Gilmer didn't know what to believe.
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The town was divided between people who thought that Sergeant
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Brown was as innocent as Noah White and those who
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thought he was as guilty as Charles Manson.
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That's Philip Williams, the journalist from Gilmer. You heard from
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him earlier in the series. Less than a month after
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the felony indictments dropped against James Brown and the others,
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Texas Assistant Attorney General Shane Phelps was on a government
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plane flying straight to Gilmer. The first stop for Shane
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and his team from the AG's office? The Kerr family
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compound on Cherokee Trace, the narrow road that meanders through
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the forest outside of town.
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When I went up there, went out and visited the
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Kerr's property, I didn't know much about life or didn't
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know these other guys, Brooks Flagg and Steve Baggs. or
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these CPS workers, to the best of my ability, I
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kept an open mind. I mean, because stuff happens. I mean,
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there is some crazy stuff that goes on out there.
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As you look at the property, it's a long three-acre
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piece of property with a house on the left and
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a little shed on the right, closer to the road.
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And then as you go back, there's a little trail
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that goes back, and there's a wooded area, and there's
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a trail that goes around, and it just comes back.
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So it creates a circle, which they believed was... somehow
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satanic in nature. Was there a clearing in the middle
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of the circle, or was it all just forested? No,
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it was mostly forested, as I recall. I remember there
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was a tree cut down that they said had been desanctified.
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That was the tree that they would string people up
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on and eviscerate them and pass their organs around and
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sexually assault them. I mean, it was a wild story.
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And, according to the Lyford team, Sergeant Brown was right
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there in the middle of the action, They believed he
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helped the Kerrs kidnap and sacrifice Kelly Wilson.
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Their theory of the case was that somehow the way
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it ultimately developed was that James Brown knew her, may
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have been having an affair with her, that James Brown
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was seen by witnesses out at the Kerrs having coffee
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with Geneva all the time.
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Geneva Kerr was the family grandma.
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So their theory was that in a van with Wendell Kerr,
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I guess James Brown and other people involved kidnapped her
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in this van, brought her back to Cherokee Trace, the
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property that the Kerrs owned, and over the next 14
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days would keep her shackled in this little shed. And
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on a daily basis, they would take Kelly out of
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the shed and take her down to this circle and
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string her up on the tree, and they would, one
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after the other, violate her in every way possible. Ultimately,
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they would take her out there, everybody would rape her,
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they'd do these horrible things to her, bring her back,
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shackle her up, and rinse and repeat for 14 days.
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Keep in mind that they had also developed a theory
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that there were numerous other victims Hitchhiking teenage girls just
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kept disappearing, and they would do all the same things
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to them. And babies. There was all this stuff in
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these interviews about trying to question these people who were
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related to Geneva, talking about how they were basically raised
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to breed babies so that they could do this. She
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was supposed to be kind of the head witch slash Satanist,
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I guess. Everybody was doing things for her, you know,
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sacrificing bodies and giving her gifts. I mean, it was
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an outlandish story. It was a really, really bad, you know,
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slasher flick. It was just outlandish. Anybody listening to their
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story would have said, that's just crazy. And of course,
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if you said that, you became part of the problem.
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But I remember walking out there and went out to
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the back and saw the the circle where all of
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this stuff is supposed to have gone on. And I
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was asking questions. I was asking questions of Brooks Flagg.
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Brooks Flagg, you might remember, was a police chaplain from Louisiana.
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According to his 2011 obituary, Flagg served in U.S. military
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intelligence as a cryptograph operator at the height of the
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Cold War, gathering intelligence on visits to communist East Germany. Later,
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he became a businessman, and founded a Christian retreat called
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The Shepherd's Rest. Somehow, along the way, Flagg came to
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view himself as an expert on satanic cults and ritual abuse,
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which I guess is how he crossed paths with Steve Baggs,
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a former Texas Department of Public Safety narcotics officer. Steve Baggs,
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also a self-styled expert on Satanists, hasn't responded to any
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of my requests for an interview. Neither has Scott Lyford,
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for that matter. Anyway, Back to the Kerr place.
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Apparently they had got DPS to do a flyover with
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infrared technology and they saw some hot spots and then
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they brought cadaver dogs out and they hit on two
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or three spots. And I remember one was at the
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base of a tree and I was standing there with
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Brick's flag and I said, well, did you dig it up? Well,
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they didn't go down very far, but they said yes
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and they found nothing. In fact, in any of the
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spots that were identified, they found nothing. I mean, nothing.
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And I'm thinking what you've described is, you know, ritual sacrifices,
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people being eviscerated, organs being passed around. There should be
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blood and semen and saliva and, you know, bits of
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flesh everywhere based on what you guys are relating here.
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And there's none of that. I'd asked a number of
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questions about were you able to recover anything that could
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be tested to corroborate this story. And And I will
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never forget this. I asked Brooks Flagg about that. Does
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it bother you that there's virtually no trace evidence of
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any of this occurring? And he was very smart, very confident.
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The fact, he said, that these are master Satanists and
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the fact that there is no evidence proves that they're
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master Satanists, proves that it happened. I was frankly pretty
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shocked by You just told me that you have no
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evidence and that proves that it happened. And at that point,
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I knew that this was all bullshit. There was nothing
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to it. We were just kind of trying to process
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all of this information. And we quickly realized after meeting
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with some of these officials and actually meeting these folks
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and seeing some of the things they were saying were
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happening out there and seeing that there really was no
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evidence of it, we thought, this is This is scary
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and dangerous. They had already indicted all of these people,
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six or seven, Kerr and their extended family. And the
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most shocking thing to me was that one of the
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people they indicted was James Brown, who was the sergeant.
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at the Gilmore Police Department who had been investigating Kelly
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Wilson's disappearance for two years at this time. And I
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was just stunned. I mean, come on, that's just not.
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It just makes no sense. Why not? There was nothing
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that pointed....
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In the last episode, we got into the claims against
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Sergeant Brown. When Shane Phelps heard the same allegations, well,
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he was having none of it. Shane had flown to
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Gilmer to assist the special prosecutor, Scott Lyford. Now he
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had a new mission. Stop the Lyford team to end
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what he considered a witch hunt and clear Sergeant Brown's name.
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The truth needed to come out. From Imperative Entertainment, I'm
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Wes Ferguson. This is Deviltown. This is Chapter 4, Witch Hunt.
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I remember vividly the first time I met James. I
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remember walking into the jail and And the first words
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out of his mouth, I mean, he was about to cry.
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He said, I didn't do this.
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David Moore is a longtime attorney in Longview, an East
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Texas city about 20 miles south of Gilmer.
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He looked stunned. He looked stunned. He looked scared. I
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don't think he was angry at that point. I think
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that that was sort of overridden by the fear that
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he had, that somebody could do this to him. You know,
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I think later through time that has obviously morphed into
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more anger than anything else. But in that moment, I
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saw fear.
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Sergeant Brown and his wife, Penny, had been married less
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than two months when he was arrested. She tried to
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visit him in jail.
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But that was not allowed.
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Penny's first glimpse of her new husband came a little
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later during a hearing at the Justice Center.
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They had a hearing with all the defendants. I was
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not able to talk to him, but I did see him.
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because I was in the back there with the other people.
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His face was just sunken in. He looked terrible. As
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you can imagine, I mean, he just, he looked like
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a different person.
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Unlike members of the Kerr family who'd been sitting in
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jail for months, Sergeant Brown spent six days in lockup
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before he was released on bond.
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The first time I saw him after release, The hearing
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was when he was released and I went and picked
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him up. He said, if you want to leave me,
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I understand. And I just remember telling him, no, I'm
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going to stand by your side and fight with you
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because you didn't do anything wrong.
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You're an innocent man.
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I felt like I was in a different world. It
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was shocking, you know, I was really elated that he
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had been released. But looking at him, I could tell
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he was a nervous wreck, you know, shaky and sad, concerned.
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But we drove to his parents' house.
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The drive would have taken about 45 minutes. When they
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got there, Sergeant Brown's son, Josh, from a previous marriage,
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was waiting.
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I was at my grandparents' house the day he got released.
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And my grandmother kept saying, I got a surprise for you.
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I got a surprise for you. I got a surprise
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for you. And I said, Dad's coming. I mean, I
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just felt it. I said, Dad's coming. He pulled in
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the driveway just like two, three minutes later. Pulled in
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the driveway and, yeah, man, I just, that's my dad.
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His blue Chevrolet three-quarter ton truck came driving in front
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of my grandparents house they had two big windows in
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front of their house and uh I saw it coming
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I heard I just knew dad was coming and uh
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he showed up and you know dad was there I
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absolutely ran out the door big hug you know I
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mean it really hadn't been long but you know I
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was worried you know kids worry people say they don't
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but You know, they do. You know, I mean, the
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reunion was, it came in, you know, just everybody just,
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my granddad was still alive and everybody just hugged. And
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then it was back to business as usual. We went fishing.
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Still remember that. You know, my grandparents had a couple
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of ponds and, you know, we kind of went and
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gave them hell.
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You know.
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Although Josh was visiting his grandparents when his dad was
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released from jail, his mom had actually moved Josh and
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his little brother to another area of the state. But
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even there, they couldn't escape news of his dad's legal jeopardy.
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You know, he shielded us from... I say shielded us,
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tried to shield us from what was going on. I mean,
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you know, and we would hear stuff on the radio.
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I can remember... Sitting in the car when I lived
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00:15:43.059 --> 00:15:47.500
in West Texas, my mom had forgotten something in the
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00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:49.320
house and got out of the car and went back in.
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00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:52.730
She was taking us to school. And hearing an article
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00:15:53.909 --> 00:15:58.009
about dad, she got back in the car and I said, Mom,
250
00:15:58.049 --> 00:15:59.190
they're talking about dad.
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It was a lot for a 10-year-old kid to process.
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00:16:02.409 --> 00:16:05.860
You know, trying to figure out, you know, why he
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00:16:05.899 --> 00:16:10.139
was arrested. And then thinking that there's no way this
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00:16:10.179 --> 00:16:14.450
side of hell, that what he was arrested for is
255
00:16:14.850 --> 00:16:21.789
what he did, because he is such a good father.
256
00:16:22.509 --> 00:16:25.769
Sergeant Brown's wife thought he was innocent. His son thought
257
00:16:25.809 --> 00:16:29.759
he was innocent. But his lawyer, David Moore, thought he
258
00:16:29.779 --> 00:16:33.500
could prove it. Sergeant Brown had kept a meticulous journal
259
00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:36.019
of his whereabouts during the early weeks of the search
260
00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:39.090
for Kelly. If David could find out what specific day
261
00:16:39.230 --> 00:16:41.850
Kelly was supposed to have been sacrificed in the woods
262
00:16:41.889 --> 00:16:44.769
behind the Kerr house, there was a good chance Sergeant
263
00:16:44.809 --> 00:16:49.090
Brown's journal would offer up an alibi. There was just
264
00:16:49.250 --> 00:16:53.139
one problem with that plan. Scott Lyford couldn't even say
265
00:16:53.379 --> 00:16:54.320
when the murder happened.
266
00:16:56.039 --> 00:17:00.840
So I'm trying to get a timeline from Lyford about,
267
00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:05.869
you know, when supposedly she was killed because they allegedly
268
00:17:05.890 --> 00:17:10.740
killed kidnapped her, kept her for X number of days,
269
00:17:11.369 --> 00:17:15.150
raped her over that period of time, multiple times, did
270
00:17:15.170 --> 00:17:17.630
all these other satanic ritual deals, and then killed her
271
00:17:17.650 --> 00:17:24.170
in a ritualistic manner. And I was wanting to know when,
272
00:17:25.670 --> 00:17:30.190
you know, because I felt pretty confident that we, because
273
00:17:30.250 --> 00:17:35.059
James was supposedly there, raped her, on an occasion, and
274
00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:38.099
then also was there when she was killed. And I
275
00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:41.720
was feeling fairly confident that if I could get that date,
276
00:17:41.779 --> 00:17:47.380
that we already had probably 80% of his whereabouts covered.
277
00:17:48.779 --> 00:17:52.400
And I asked Lyford, I said, well, when was the killing?
278
00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:55.049
Well, I don't know. I said, what do you mean
279
00:17:55.089 --> 00:17:55.529
you don't know?
280
00:17:55.549 --> 00:18:01.849
I mean, you've indicted this guy for, her murder, and
281
00:18:02.130 --> 00:18:05.569
you can't tell me even when it was. I don't know.
282
00:18:05.609 --> 00:18:06.410
We're working on that.
283
00:18:06.430 --> 00:18:07.299
We'll get that to you.
284
00:18:08.170 --> 00:18:11.849
Not long after his troubling conversation with Lyford, David got
285
00:18:11.910 --> 00:18:15.390
another phone call. This one from Al McAllister, the Gilmer
286
00:18:15.430 --> 00:18:19.539
police chief. Al McAllister was a strong supporter of Brown.
287
00:18:21.150 --> 00:18:23.039
I can't go into any details right now other than
288
00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:25.480
to say that I'm happy he's out of jail. And
289
00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:27.299
I look forward to the time when our story can
290
00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:31.230
be completely told. And I think it's time for the
291
00:18:31.269 --> 00:18:33.730
man to show us what evidence he has.
292
00:18:34.289 --> 00:18:35.630
You mean the special prosecutor?
293
00:18:35.710 --> 00:18:40.019
I mean the special prosecutor. There have been many people
294
00:18:40.059 --> 00:18:42.359
who will tell you the most fantastic stories about Sergeant
295
00:18:42.380 --> 00:18:46.400
Brown that you've ever heard. And especially they've risen to
296
00:18:46.460 --> 00:18:49.180
the surface and come out of various places to make
297
00:18:49.259 --> 00:18:51.599
all manner of allegations against Sergeant Brown. So it certainly
298
00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:53.609
doesn't surprise me that somebody might say that.
299
00:18:54.170 --> 00:18:57.069
Remember, Sergeant Brown had not even been a suspect before.
300
00:18:57.460 --> 00:19:00.890
until he stuck his nose in the Lyford investigation. At
301
00:19:00.930 --> 00:19:03.750
that time, Lyford had threatened to ruin him if he
302
00:19:03.789 --> 00:19:07.710
didn't back down. And, next thing you know, Sergeant Brown
303
00:19:07.750 --> 00:19:12.170
is in jail. Now the Lyford team wanted Brown's investigative reports,
304
00:19:12.750 --> 00:19:15.730
and Chief Al McAllister didn't want to hand them over.
305
00:19:16.450 --> 00:19:19.089
They were threatening Al that if he didn't turn over
306
00:19:19.150 --> 00:19:24.069
James's investigative file to them, that they were going to
307
00:19:24.089 --> 00:19:26.849
haul Al in front of the grand jury and charge
308
00:19:26.890 --> 00:19:32.410
him with with something. And I was worried, Al was worried,
309
00:19:32.589 --> 00:19:35.660
James was worried, that if they were to get his
310
00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:39.099
file of all the things he was meticulous about, what
311
00:19:39.140 --> 00:19:41.680
he did when and where he was, that if they
312
00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:46.369
had that, then they would be able to tailor their story,
313
00:19:46.390 --> 00:19:49.710
their version, and work around whatever kind of alibis that
314
00:19:49.750 --> 00:19:50.559
James would have had.
315
00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:53.859
David filed a motion to block the Leifert team from
316
00:19:53.900 --> 00:19:57.559
getting access to Brown's file until they could actually figure
317
00:19:57.660 --> 00:19:58.940
out when the murder happened.
318
00:19:59.420 --> 00:20:03.599
To Judge Garrison's credit, he shut them down on that
319
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.079
and told them not to turn that over. I think
320
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:09.019
that was probably the first time they got any pushback
321
00:20:09.059 --> 00:20:13.500
from anybody. It was obvious something was rotten. You know,
322
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:14.700
something didn't smell right.
323
00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:18.220
As for Shane Phelps, he'd flown back to the Attorney
324
00:20:18.259 --> 00:20:20.740
General's office in Austin, and he had a bunch of
325
00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:25.430
cassette tapes. Recordings of the Leifert team's interrogations with Wanda Kerr,
326
00:20:25.970 --> 00:20:30.349
Connie Martin, the common-law wife of Danny Kerr, and Raymond Smith,
327
00:20:30.809 --> 00:20:33.650
the little boy who'd connected the Kerr abuse to Kelly
328
00:20:33.670 --> 00:20:37.349
Wilson's disappearance. Shane was sitting at his desk when he
329
00:20:37.390 --> 00:20:37.849
hit play.
330
00:20:38.490 --> 00:20:41.069
And I got angrier and angrier. I mean, I think
331
00:20:41.089 --> 00:20:42.470
I started listening to it at one or two o'clock
332
00:20:42.490 --> 00:20:45.789
in the afternoon. I was there until almost midnight, listening
333
00:20:45.809 --> 00:20:47.490
to this. And I got to the point where I
334
00:20:47.509 --> 00:20:51.819
was throwing things around in my office. I was so angry. Really? Oh, yes.
335
00:20:51.900 --> 00:20:54.559
What'd you throw? Oh, God, what was it? Something on
336
00:20:54.579 --> 00:20:57.319
my desk. It was a paperweight. You threw a paperweight?
337
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:01.819
I did. I was pissed off. I mean, it is
338
00:21:02.019 --> 00:21:06.670
so far afield of anything that any responsible person law
339
00:21:06.690 --> 00:21:12.170
enforcement officer, prosecutor would ever, ever do. It wasn't marginal.
340
00:21:12.450 --> 00:21:14.609
It wasn't a difference of opinion about how these things
341
00:21:14.630 --> 00:21:18.829
should be done. It was, in my mind, criminal. And
342
00:21:18.849 --> 00:21:21.329
there was no other evidence. I mean, when we, I
343
00:21:21.369 --> 00:21:28.289
listened to these audio interviews and their investigative methods were horrendous.
344
00:21:28.730 --> 00:21:31.490
They were practically non-existent. You know, they're supposed to have
345
00:21:31.569 --> 00:21:38.960
two investigators with investigative experience. No law enforcement officer worth
346
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:44.240
a damn with any dedication to doing the job properly
347
00:21:44.259 --> 00:21:47.299
would ever have participated in these interviews.
348
00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:51.059
I've also been listening to the tapes. It's hard. The
349
00:21:51.099 --> 00:21:54.619
material is just really graphic and gross, and it goes
350
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:59.119
on for hours on end. And yet, sometimes the interrogators
351
00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:01.759
actually seem to be enjoying themselves.
352
00:22:01.779 --> 00:22:03.079
All right, so.
353
00:22:04.690 --> 00:22:06.710
James is over there. He ought to be through taking
354
00:22:06.730 --> 00:22:10.710
his clothes off now. So we've got James without any clothes.
355
00:22:10.950 --> 00:22:12.730
We've got the stick in Kelly.
356
00:22:13.769 --> 00:22:16.819
What's the next thing that happens? Somebody else undress, or
357
00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:18.960
does James get on at this point, or what's the deal?
358
00:22:18.980 --> 00:22:20.279
I don't know why my.
359
00:22:20.259 --> 00:22:24.000
Mind works the way it does. That's beginning to worry me.
360
00:22:25.859 --> 00:22:28.849
If you couldn't hear that, either Bags or Flag, I
361
00:22:28.890 --> 00:22:32.450
think Flag said, I don't know why my mind works
362
00:22:32.490 --> 00:22:34.960
the way it does. That's beginning to worry me.
363
00:22:35.619 --> 00:22:39.349
Okay. He's completely nude, right?
364
00:22:39.609 --> 00:22:39.910
Naked.
365
00:22:40.710 --> 00:22:42.750
Skinny ass son of a bitch.
366
00:22:42.769 --> 00:22:43.049
Okay.
367
00:22:43.269 --> 00:22:43.569
Anyway.
368
00:22:43.589 --> 00:22:50.700
Is that on tape? Connie's still laughing the way your
369
00:22:50.740 --> 00:22:51.339
mind works.
370
00:22:56.740 --> 00:22:59.500
Skinny ass son of a bitch. Is that on tape?
371
00:23:00.369 --> 00:23:02.849
Connie is still laughing at the way your mind works.
372
00:23:03.460 --> 00:23:07.109
the interrogators definitely seem to have overactive imaginations.
373
00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:10.589
I'll never forget listening to Raymond's, the audio tape of
374
00:23:10.650 --> 00:23:14.069
Raymond's interview, when he's talking about all this bizarre stuff.
375
00:23:14.710 --> 00:23:18.269
And it's all, it was clearly being suggested. And what
376
00:23:18.289 --> 00:23:19.970
this was not coming out of the mind of these children,
377
00:23:20.009 --> 00:23:22.819
it was coming out of the Leifert team. And what
378
00:23:22.940 --> 00:23:25.900
they knew had to have happened if Satanists were involved.
379
00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:28.400
So we know this is the practice. If you're not
380
00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:33.099
giving us, you know, validating our theory, then... you're not
381
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:38.160
being truthful. So I was listening to the Raymond audio
382
00:23:38.180 --> 00:23:41.779
tape and there was nothing about James Brown. And I'm
383
00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:43.480
about to turn it off. I was in my office
384
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:45.279
in Austin and I was about to turn it off,
385
00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:51.130
reaching for the off switch when, because they had ended
386
00:23:51.170 --> 00:23:56.609
the interview, when they came back on and said, Raymond,
387
00:23:56.630 --> 00:23:59.650
do you have something else to tell us? And he said, yes,
388
00:23:59.769 --> 00:24:02.430
Sergeant Brown was there. And then they just turned it off.
389
00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:08.269
To thank you Raymond? Yeah. They didn't follow through. They
390
00:24:08.289 --> 00:24:10.109
didn't say, well, how do you know he was there?
391
00:24:10.250 --> 00:24:12.029
Were you there when he was there? How many times
392
00:24:12.089 --> 00:24:14.349
was he there? How was he dressed? What did he do?
393
00:24:15.150 --> 00:24:17.369
Had you ever seen him before? No questions like that.
394
00:24:18.450 --> 00:24:20.690
And we have no idea how much time elapsed between
395
00:24:20.769 --> 00:24:23.259
when they stopped recording and when they started up again.
396
00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:23.470
No.
397
00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:27.099
And I guarantee you that there was stuff going on
398
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:30.619
at that point. Between them. There would be no reason
399
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.869
to have any conversation with this kid that wasn't recorded.
400
00:24:34.869 --> 00:24:38.450
And yeah, so that lapse in time, however long it was,
401
00:24:39.109 --> 00:24:41.150
was very suspicious.
402
00:24:41.890 --> 00:24:44.549
The Attorney General's office did not give me the recordings
403
00:24:44.589 --> 00:24:48.410
of Raymond. I assumed to protect his privacy. As I
404
00:24:48.450 --> 00:24:51.539
mentioned before, Raymond has given us permission to use his name.
405
00:24:52.339 --> 00:24:54.990
And the same thing with Connie. I mean, it was no, no,
406
00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:58.660
no until it was yes. Keep me in mind that
407
00:24:59.299 --> 00:25:02.970
a couple of important things about Connie and Rhonda both
408
00:25:03.009 --> 00:25:09.150
of them borderline intellectual functioning, low IQ, and they were
409
00:25:09.170 --> 00:25:15.539
being threatened with life sentences. They'd been ultimately indicted for
410
00:25:15.619 --> 00:25:19.859
death penalty cases. So if you listen to these, they
411
00:25:19.900 --> 00:25:22.039
repeatedly say, no, I don't know what you're talking about,
412
00:25:22.059 --> 00:25:25.940
it didn't happen. We're going to keep going until you
413
00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:28.440
tell us what we want to hear, is basically their
414
00:25:28.779 --> 00:25:32.140
investigative strategy. you will eventually tell us what we want
415
00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:33.819
to hear, which is what happened.
416
00:25:34.779 --> 00:25:36.589
Why don't we go back and let's go through this
417
00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:38.910
whole thing and don't leave anything out this time.
418
00:25:43.130 --> 00:25:46.890
You want to try that? Once you get it out,
419
00:25:46.930 --> 00:25:47.579
it's over with.
420
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:50.440
The reason we have to keep going again and again
421
00:25:50.500 --> 00:25:53.299
and again is because you keep leaving so much stuff out.
422
00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:54.240
In the middle, you know?
423
00:25:55.660 --> 00:25:59.980
And you've already told... Listening to the tapes, I can
424
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:04.920
see what Shane means. But what about all the physical
425
00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:06.380
evidence we've heard about?
426
00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:26.740
The human bone the Leifert team found in that same
427
00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:30.539
field where Connie said they'd buried women and children. What
428
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:34.069
about the shed where Bags and Flag found the torture devices?
429
00:26:35.690 --> 00:26:38.849
These two were among the most salacious details of the case.
430
00:26:39.569 --> 00:26:41.450
But was it actually true?
431
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:07.119
And one of the things they make you do is
432
00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:10.619
kill people and drink the blood and eat the body parts.
433
00:27:11.539 --> 00:27:13.720
And most of the time they keep all their little
434
00:27:13.779 --> 00:27:16.299
bodies in one location.
435
00:27:18.579 --> 00:27:19.740
But they like to go back and get the.
436
00:27:19.740 --> 00:27:22.460
Bones and the skulls and the teeth.
437
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:24.900
And do things with those.
438
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:30.589
It's real likely that those bodies are back there somewhere.
439
00:27:32.970 --> 00:27:38.069
Did you ever see anyone, anyone, pick up one of
440
00:27:38.109 --> 00:27:41.250
those bodies or body parts and walk off from that
441
00:27:41.329 --> 00:27:42.849
circle back in the woods?
442
00:27:43.869 --> 00:27:46.710
In an interview with Connie Martin, they had gotten her
443
00:27:46.730 --> 00:27:53.549
to say that they would bury these hitchhiking teenage girls
444
00:27:53.609 --> 00:27:57.740
that they murdered and raped and ate their organs. I mean,
445
00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:00.299
just crazy stuff like that. But that they would save
446
00:28:00.339 --> 00:28:02.980
the bones and they would bury them and Black plastic,
447
00:28:03.009 --> 00:28:05.410
I think it was. Is it a bag or is
448
00:28:05.470 --> 00:28:06.890
it just black plastic?
449
00:28:10.210 --> 00:28:11.289
It was a black bag.
450
00:28:11.309 --> 00:28:11.609
Okay.
451
00:28:11.670 --> 00:28:15.730
He puts the black bag down in there. Then what
452
00:28:15.769 --> 00:28:18.710
does he do? Does he put anything else in the hole?
453
00:28:18.730 --> 00:28:19.309
The bones.
454
00:28:20.069 --> 00:28:22.890
Okay. The bones are in the bag or he puts
455
00:28:22.910 --> 00:28:24.529
the bag in and then puts the bones on top
456
00:28:24.630 --> 00:28:24.829
of it?
457
00:28:24.829 --> 00:28:25.849
No, the bones are in the bag.
458
00:28:25.869 --> 00:28:28.890
They're in the bag. He puts the black bag with
459
00:28:28.910 --> 00:28:32.420
the bones in it into the hole. And so they
460
00:28:32.920 --> 00:28:35.599
identified where they said they buried it and they went
461
00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:37.380
out there with a back of a... Where did they
462
00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:38.720
say they had buried it? It was just in some
463
00:28:38.779 --> 00:28:42.420
field somewhere there in Upshur County. Part of a... I
464
00:28:42.539 --> 00:28:44.589
kind of got the impression it was a farm. Because
465
00:28:44.609 --> 00:28:46.990
there was a house nearby. But it was just an
466
00:28:47.049 --> 00:28:50.349
open field. And so when we went up there and
467
00:28:50.410 --> 00:28:52.789
visited with them, we actually went out to that field.
468
00:28:53.509 --> 00:28:55.950
And they were pointing out that they had found a
469
00:28:56.009 --> 00:28:59.900
bone and some bits of black plastic. They said it
470
00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:01.779
was wrapped in plastic. I don't think it was, but
471
00:29:02.430 --> 00:29:03.769
They got to the point where they looked at it
472
00:29:04.349 --> 00:29:06.549
and they discovered it because they dug up a good
473
00:29:06.569 --> 00:29:09.470
part of the field, not maybe a quarter of it.
474
00:29:10.470 --> 00:29:13.089
But they showed me where they found the bone. And
475
00:29:13.130 --> 00:29:14.930
then that was right at the edge of where they
476
00:29:14.950 --> 00:29:19.539
had been digging. And I said, well, why did you stop?
477
00:29:20.460 --> 00:29:23.619
I mean, if you have this story that you now
478
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:27.539
believe is corroborated, that more than one person has been
479
00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:30.559
murdered and their bones are buried in this field, and
480
00:29:30.579 --> 00:29:33.180
you find a bone that you think corroborates your story,
481
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:37.569
why the hell did you stop digging? This whole field
482
00:29:38.309 --> 00:29:41.579
should be dug up. They didn't really have a satisfactory answer.
483
00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:44.480
Remember, this is the same bone I mentioned in the
484
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:47.400
last episode, the one that appeared to belong to a
485
00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:50.960
human female of Kelly's age. It seemed like one of
486
00:29:51.009 --> 00:29:54.069
the most crucial pieces of physical evidence the Leifert team
487
00:29:54.210 --> 00:29:56.569
had discovered in months of investigating.
488
00:29:58.029 --> 00:30:00.230
The bone. that they said that they sent off to
489
00:30:00.250 --> 00:30:03.430
a forensic anthropologist that they found in this field and
490
00:30:03.490 --> 00:30:08.710
said that it was a female juvenile tibia. Pretty specific
491
00:30:08.859 --> 00:30:12.539
for that. So they figured that that corroborated. I mean,
492
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:16.180
every step of the way, they saw things or perceived
493
00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:20.380
things that would support their belief, and so they'd keep going.
494
00:30:21.890 --> 00:30:28.150
And they would totally ignore, I mean, just enormous evidence
495
00:30:28.690 --> 00:30:33.049
that none of this happened, which was very frustrating to hear.
496
00:30:34.410 --> 00:30:35.900
I'll give you an example of the bone that they
497
00:30:35.940 --> 00:30:38.500
found when I kind of took over the case. I
498
00:30:38.539 --> 00:30:40.779
had that bone transferred to a laboratory, and it came
499
00:30:40.819 --> 00:30:41.759
back as a pig bone.
500
00:30:42.460 --> 00:30:46.380
For real, a pig bone. I was like 14 at
501
00:30:46.420 --> 00:30:50.180
the time, and I still remember being stunned by that revelation.
502
00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:54.150
Yeah, it was, it wasn't even close. I don't know
503
00:30:54.190 --> 00:30:56.450
what forensic anthropologist they got to look at it, but
504
00:30:56.470 --> 00:30:59.839
come on. And I'm pretty sure you can't just look
505
00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:04.240
at it and say that it's a 14-year-old juvenile tibia
506
00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:08.099
from a female. Maybe there is that technology, but I
507
00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:12.339
don't think so. Certainly not at that time. Another example
508
00:31:12.359 --> 00:31:14.119
is that they had talked to these kids, and they
509
00:31:14.140 --> 00:31:18.849
got the wildest stories out of these kids. That there
510
00:31:18.890 --> 00:31:21.470
was a dungeon where they were taken, and all these
511
00:31:21.490 --> 00:31:25.789
children were repeatedly raped. I mean, just by one adult
512
00:31:25.910 --> 00:31:30.630
after another. And the kids, at least some of them,
513
00:31:30.650 --> 00:31:32.490
had said it was in this place they called the dungeon.
514
00:31:33.609 --> 00:31:35.650
There was a storm shelter or something in the back.
515
00:31:36.009 --> 00:31:38.640
They said, well, this looks like the dungeon. So they
516
00:31:38.680 --> 00:31:41.640
start looking around, and they see some stains on the walls. Well,
517
00:31:41.660 --> 00:31:43.680
they do one of these, I guess they get somebody
518
00:31:43.720 --> 00:31:45.599
in to do one of these presumptive tests. They are
519
00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:49.700
not confirmatory. And with tests like that, oftentimes there are
520
00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:54.170
false positives. Well, these tested according to them. Now, I
521
00:31:54.210 --> 00:31:59.150
never saw the results, but tested... presumptively for human blood.
522
00:32:01.809 --> 00:32:03.190
They sent it off to the laboratory and it came
523
00:32:03.230 --> 00:32:07.769
back as not human blood. But when they heard presumptively
524
00:32:07.789 --> 00:32:10.930
for human blood, these kids are telling the truth. All
525
00:32:10.990 --> 00:32:13.039
that stuff happened there. Of course, there was nothing ever
526
00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:16.299
recovered from there that you would expect to be recovered
527
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:23.880
from a dungeon where there had been serial raping of children.
528
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:25.940
Is that the one that was supposed to be like
529
00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:29.480
a penis-shaped elevator or something like that?
530
00:32:29.700 --> 00:32:33.029
Yes. A kid tells me about a penis-shaped elevator. I'm
531
00:32:33.130 --> 00:32:35.470
probably going to have some misgivings about whether this child
532
00:32:35.549 --> 00:32:38.089
is telling me the truth. It didn't stop them at all.
533
00:32:38.329 --> 00:32:45.240
They didn't slow down at all. Anything that they encountered
534
00:32:45.539 --> 00:32:52.619
that in their brains corroborated their story, they just kept going.
535
00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:55.009
If they talked to somebody who said, I don't know
536
00:32:55.029 --> 00:32:58.880
what you're talking about, Then instead of, well, maybe there's
537
00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:02.740
a problem here, it was, this person is too afraid
538
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:08.609
to talk to us. Because as they came to believe,
539
00:33:08.789 --> 00:33:09.750
everybody was involved.
540
00:33:10.049 --> 00:33:12.730
Remember that shed, the one behind the Kerr house where
541
00:33:12.769 --> 00:33:14.720
Kelly was supposed to be kept for two weeks?
542
00:33:15.329 --> 00:33:19.309
Investigators descended on the Kerr family home today to catalog
543
00:33:19.470 --> 00:33:22.470
every item. The Kerr home is where they believe Gilmer
544
00:33:22.509 --> 00:33:26.210
High School senior Kelly Wilson was allegedly raped, held against
545
00:33:26.259 --> 00:33:29.160
her will for nine days, and then stabbed to death.
546
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:34.500
Investigators concentrated on several sheds behind the house. Region 56
547
00:33:34.500 --> 00:33:37.920
News has learned prosecutors suspect Wilson was killed in one
548
00:33:37.940 --> 00:33:41.240
of those sheds. Blood was allegedly found on the walls.
549
00:33:42.529 --> 00:33:44.049
They found a search warrant at a couple of searches
550
00:33:44.109 --> 00:33:47.589
in the shed. and you would expect to find her hair,
551
00:33:48.710 --> 00:33:51.130
maybe even bits of flesh, blood, certainly, because she had
552
00:33:51.150 --> 00:33:56.910
been tortured, semen, saliva, you know, trace evidence. I mean,
553
00:33:58.410 --> 00:34:01.089
if I brought in a forensic CSI person to come
554
00:34:01.109 --> 00:34:04.579
in here, they could find evidence that Wes Ferguson was
555
00:34:04.619 --> 00:34:09.500
in this office just from this interview, and they found nothing.
556
00:34:09.820 --> 00:34:10.719
With one exception.
557
00:34:11.139 --> 00:34:14.179
They did find something that they just process in their
558
00:34:14.219 --> 00:34:18.780
minds as being corroborative. They found a bag. I've got
559
00:34:18.820 --> 00:34:20.679
one of these in my pickup truck. I've got it
560
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:22.780
in a weekend pickup truck. And I've got a bunch
561
00:34:22.820 --> 00:34:24.800
of bungee cords in it because sometimes I'll put stuff
562
00:34:24.820 --> 00:34:26.039
in the back to take to the dump and I
563
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:28.739
need to... So they found this bag that had things
564
00:34:28.780 --> 00:34:32.719
like bungee cords and things like that in it. Yeah,
565
00:34:32.739 --> 00:34:35.030
in their mind, those were the implements of torture.
566
00:34:35.909 --> 00:34:40.039
Shackles in there where you could... you know, like handcuffed
567
00:34:40.219 --> 00:34:44.989
somebody to the wall and there were cat-of-nine-tail whips in
568
00:34:45.050 --> 00:34:48.090
there and all kinds of satanic stuff.
569
00:34:48.610 --> 00:34:52.030
And that's all they perceived it as. And it supported
570
00:34:52.050 --> 00:34:57.389
their theory. They found some Halloween masks in somebody's house.
571
00:34:59.380 --> 00:35:01.840
And that, you know, like what was a mask of
572
00:35:01.940 --> 00:35:04.440
a devil that you can buy at any of these
573
00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:08.019
Halloween stores. And that played into.
574
00:35:07.860 --> 00:35:12.699
Their By this point, the way Shane tells it, the
575
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:15.059
members of the Lifer team were so wrapped up in
576
00:35:15.099 --> 00:35:18.579
a conspiracy of their own making, they were afraid of
577
00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:22.800
their own shadows. And yet they pressed on, building their
578
00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:27.130
case against James Brown and the Kers. The two CPS workers,
579
00:35:27.429 --> 00:35:30.170
Ann Gore and Debbie Minshew, had been among the first
580
00:35:30.230 --> 00:35:34.210
people to uncover evidence of incest and multi-generational abuse in
581
00:35:34.230 --> 00:35:37.269
the Kerr family. And while it doesn't sound like Gore
582
00:35:37.329 --> 00:35:40.849
and Minshew had a lick of law enforcement credentials or training,
583
00:35:41.610 --> 00:35:45.170
Scott Lyford had welcomed them onto his team. They even
584
00:35:45.230 --> 00:35:48.019
participated in the interrogations of Connie Martin.
585
00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:52.000
Why is it upsetting you? Why are you shaking?
586
00:35:53.260 --> 00:35:54.139
Because I'm scared.
587
00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:54.659
Why?
588
00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:56.760
Why?
589
00:36:00.659 --> 00:36:01.940
Where do the tears come and fall?
590
00:36:04.570 --> 00:36:10.119
What else have you not told? I want the truth.
591
00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:14.460
What else? What else?
592
00:36:15.619 --> 00:36:17.280
Look at me, Connie. What else?
593
00:36:18.579 --> 00:36:19.860
That they burn her up.
594
00:36:20.630 --> 00:36:21.050
What else?
595
00:36:23.150 --> 00:36:23.769
Who burned her?
596
00:36:24.630 --> 00:36:27.550
Danny and Wendell and James and Ava. Well, you weren't there.
597
00:36:27.570 --> 00:36:28.630
You were in the house, weren't you?
598
00:36:29.550 --> 00:36:30.590
I want the truth, Connie.
599
00:36:31.190 --> 00:36:32.309
They burn her up.
600
00:36:32.570 --> 00:36:34.070
And what did they make you do?
601
00:36:34.860 --> 00:36:38.619
As the scope of their investigation widened, everyone became a suspect.
602
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:42.840
The team could trust no one. If you remember, they
603
00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:45.719
were operating out of a secret headquarters in the forests
604
00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:46.539
outside of town.
605
00:36:47.019 --> 00:36:52.639
They had basically created a bunker out in the middle
606
00:36:52.659 --> 00:36:56.280
of the woods, somewhere, that they didn't want anybody to
607
00:36:56.320 --> 00:37:01.639
know about because by this time, in their brains, everybody
608
00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:06.599
was involved. Everybody was suspect. They couldn't trust anybody. The sheriff,
609
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:11.760
the chief of police, anybody who had any skepticism about
610
00:37:11.800 --> 00:37:15.099
what they were saying happened. It's like the whole town
611
00:37:15.139 --> 00:37:18.809
was a conspiracy den of devil worshipers. It was weird. Yes,
612
00:37:18.849 --> 00:37:23.230
that's truly what they believed. But it became painfully obvious
613
00:37:23.349 --> 00:37:26.949
after coming back to Austin, after that first visit, that
614
00:37:27.469 --> 00:37:35.369
we now had... inexperienced team that was so far into
615
00:37:35.409 --> 00:37:39.179
this and so far over their head that really bad
616
00:37:39.219 --> 00:37:42.489
things were going to happen if something didn't stop it.
617
00:37:43.460 --> 00:37:46.659
And so the decision was made to basically fire Scott Leifert,
618
00:37:47.539 --> 00:37:52.280
take over the case. So I flew up to Gilmer
619
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:56.360
and met with Scott in the Golden Corral up there.
620
00:37:56.380 --> 00:38:00.360
It was a very bizarre experience, very Twilight Zone-ish. I
621
00:38:00.380 --> 00:38:03.510
don't know why I had that sense, but I sat
622
00:38:03.550 --> 00:38:05.909
down with Scott, and I told him, Scott, we're taking
623
00:38:05.949 --> 00:38:09.590
over the case. Kind of an interesting thing about that
624
00:38:09.650 --> 00:38:12.110
is that I really had no authority to do that.
625
00:38:13.789 --> 00:38:15.789
There is a great deal of ignorance out there about
626
00:38:15.829 --> 00:38:18.780
what the Attorney General's Office can and cannot do in
627
00:38:18.820 --> 00:38:22.860
criminal law. And the fact is that the Attorney General's Office, again,
628
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:26.579
has very limited jurisdiction. We only ever gain, at least
629
00:38:26.599 --> 00:38:28.619
when I was doing it, only ever came into a
630
00:38:28.659 --> 00:38:31.440
jurisdiction with the permission of a local prosecutor. We only
631
00:38:31.500 --> 00:38:35.679
ever prosecuted as either deputized assistants or pro tem attorneys
632
00:38:36.090 --> 00:38:38.699
when the district attorney or county attorney had accused themselves.
633
00:38:40.670 --> 00:38:43.369
But with respect to the ability to go in and
634
00:38:43.389 --> 00:38:45.829
fire somebody, keep in mind that Scott Leifert was appointed
635
00:38:45.909 --> 00:38:48.730
by the district judge, so he was the district attorney
636
00:38:49.050 --> 00:38:52.289
for that case. And fortunately, he was ignorant enough about
637
00:38:52.309 --> 00:38:54.519
the process that he didn't know I couldn't do it.
638
00:38:54.550 --> 00:38:56.949
Scott Leifert could have said, I don't care what you think.
639
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:02.559
I am the appointed prosecutor pro tem. And one of
640
00:39:02.619 --> 00:39:06.400
the shortcomings of our system is that there is no
641
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:12.449
oversight for prosecutors. So I really didn't have any authority
642
00:39:12.469 --> 00:39:14.750
to do it, but I knew that most people don't
643
00:39:14.789 --> 00:39:17.329
know that. So I just told them he was fired.
644
00:39:17.769 --> 00:39:19.849
I mean, I didn't put it in exactly that way.
645
00:39:20.090 --> 00:39:23.150
I said, we're taking over the case. I left it
646
00:39:23.210 --> 00:39:26.070
open that, look, if you want to remain involved, we're
647
00:39:26.090 --> 00:39:31.780
happy to. have your help. And I think at that point,
648
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:35.599
there was some sincerity in that offer because I didn't
649
00:39:35.980 --> 00:39:38.840
have a full understanding at this point of just how
650
00:39:38.980 --> 00:39:41.639
wrong this whole thing had gone.
651
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:46.269
I remember, you know, my first meeting with Shane.
652
00:39:46.469 --> 00:39:48.789
This is James Brown's attorney, David Moore, again.
653
00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:54.989
And I remember him telling me that there's some things
654
00:39:55.090 --> 00:39:58.449
that we're aware of that you don't even know. And
655
00:39:58.489 --> 00:40:00.389
he said, I promise you, your client's going to get
656
00:40:00.429 --> 00:40:04.530
a fair shake on this deal. He said, if you'll,
657
00:40:06.610 --> 00:40:09.349
you know, he didn't say exactly like this, but essentially
658
00:40:09.389 --> 00:40:13.550
if I would be cooperative with them. And I was,
659
00:40:13.769 --> 00:40:18.159
you know, feeling anything but. cooperative with the prosecution at
660
00:40:18.199 --> 00:40:21.739
that point in time because I knew that there were
661
00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:26.780
shady things that were happening. And ultimately he did what
662
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:29.289
he said he was going to do.
663
00:40:29.300 --> 00:40:30.909
And that was look at it objectively.
664
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:34.670
Shane also provided Sgt. Brown's attorney with the recordings of
665
00:40:34.690 --> 00:40:35.570
the interrogations.
666
00:40:36.269 --> 00:40:39.750
I remember when I got the tapes, I got them
667
00:40:39.829 --> 00:40:45.010
from when the AG got involved. And Shane Phelps turned
668
00:40:45.030 --> 00:40:47.349
them over to me and I just remember listening to
669
00:40:47.369 --> 00:40:52.369
them and just being so angry at what they were
670
00:40:52.409 --> 00:40:57.280
doing so angry I could not believe when I actually
671
00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:09.480
got the recordings how unprofessional how insidious the investigation really
672
00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:15.659
was the it's just it was crazy It was crazy.
673
00:41:16.300 --> 00:41:19.199
You need to listen to them because there's times when
674
00:41:19.219 --> 00:41:24.699
they're trying to get from Connie the.
675
00:41:24.989 --> 00:41:29.949
And it's just almost comical in hindsight, but they're trying
676
00:41:30.230 --> 00:41:33.130
to get her to say that there's a police officer
677
00:41:33.210 --> 00:41:38.849
out there. And it's very suspicious the way that happens
678
00:41:38.929 --> 00:41:43.090
because they'll have the tape recorder running and then she'll
679
00:41:43.139 --> 00:41:46.469
get lost and... and can't provide them detail. And there's
680
00:41:46.530 --> 00:41:51.250
times where, I believe it's Lyford says, well, we'll come
681
00:41:51.289 --> 00:41:56.849
back to that. There's times when I think Lyford testified
682
00:41:56.889 --> 00:41:59.090
that they wanted to make sure everything was recorded so
683
00:41:59.110 --> 00:42:04.510
nobody could accuse them of, you know, planting things in
684
00:42:04.530 --> 00:42:07.449
the witnesses' heads or suggesting answers to them. And then,
685
00:42:08.070 --> 00:42:12.320
you know, I'll be darned if they don't say, well,
686
00:42:12.340 --> 00:42:15.690
let's go off of... you know, sort of go off camera,
687
00:42:15.730 --> 00:42:18.739
so to speak. And then you come back, and then
688
00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:23.659
Connie spits out James Brown's name. I mean, she couldn't
689
00:42:23.699 --> 00:42:24.820
before they took the break.
690
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:27.360
Tell me everybody that was at the house when you
691
00:42:27.400 --> 00:42:27.780
got home.
692
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:29.239
James Brown.
693
00:42:29.260 --> 00:42:29.619
Yes. Okay.
694
00:42:43.940 --> 00:42:47.940
Like they would, if Connie couldn't get her story right
695
00:42:48.219 --> 00:42:50.590
for that evening, and they went back and forth with
696
00:42:50.630 --> 00:42:55.309
her multiple times, Lyford would make comments like, come on, Connie,
697
00:42:56.050 --> 00:43:00.840
you know the answer. Tonight's cigarette hangs in the balance.
698
00:43:01.659 --> 00:43:05.429
We're not dumb, girl. We're not dumb. And you make
699
00:43:05.469 --> 00:43:08.130
it hard on us and hard on yourself. And you
700
00:43:08.170 --> 00:43:08.849
know what else you do?
701
00:43:08.889 --> 00:43:11.219
You could have had a cigarette 15 minutes ago if
702
00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:13.219
you had just said, oh, yeah, they use a metal detector.
703
00:43:13.300 --> 00:43:15.500
I didn't think about that at the time.
704
00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:19.320
Well, you cost yourself 15 minutes worth of cigarettes. Connie,
705
00:43:19.340 --> 00:43:19.780
look at it.
706
00:43:19.780 --> 00:43:21.960
You know, they'd take her out and let her smoke
707
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:27.670
cigarettes and, you know, get her food and stuff like that.
708
00:43:29.269 --> 00:43:30.630
And Connie's IQ.
709
00:43:33.309 --> 00:43:36.110
I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was
710
00:43:37.329 --> 00:43:38.849
sub-average IQ.
711
00:43:41.570 --> 00:43:45.659
Their local reporter, Phillip Williams, described it as having the.
712
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:48.599
IQ of a fern. Well, she had a little more
713
00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:51.219
going on than a fern, but not a whole lot.
714
00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:56.239
She was subsequently, I think, tested, and I don't remember
715
00:43:56.260 --> 00:43:59.030
what the exact score was, but it was well below 100.
716
00:43:59.030 --> 00:43:59.210
And so.
717
00:44:03.889 --> 00:44:07.650
I feel like Connie and Wanda were taken advantage of
718
00:44:07.710 --> 00:44:12.409
by Lieford as much. There's one point on the tapes
719
00:44:12.489 --> 00:44:18.110
where Lieford, they send Connie back to her cell and
720
00:44:21.469 --> 00:44:26.090
Lieford makes a comment. Connie's having a hard time figuring
721
00:44:26.139 --> 00:44:27.190
out this carrot.
722
00:44:26.889 --> 00:44:27.659
And stick thing.
723
00:44:29.619 --> 00:44:32.309
I'm not kidding you. I mean, you're rolling your eyes
724
00:44:32.429 --> 00:44:34.590
at me and looking in disbelief, but you're going to
725
00:44:34.610 --> 00:44:37.010
hear those types of things. And when I was hearing
726
00:44:37.030 --> 00:44:40.489
those things, I remember one point slamming my coffee cup
727
00:44:41.030 --> 00:44:44.780
and getting coffee everywhere because I was so pissed off
728
00:44:45.380 --> 00:44:49.000
that they could do something like that to somebody. And
729
00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:52.820
it's a damn good thing for the courage, honestly, that
730
00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:54.019
James Brown got indicted.
731
00:44:54.039 --> 00:44:54.119
Yeah.
732
00:44:57.239 --> 00:44:57.719
Seriously.
733
00:44:57.739 --> 00:45:00.139
Did you expound on that?
734
00:45:01.369 --> 00:45:05.369
Because the Kers were poor.
735
00:45:06.590 --> 00:45:06.920
People.
736
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:16.099
The Kers, some of them, may or may not have
737
00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:19.690
been guilty of the sexual allegations that were against them.
738
00:45:20.829 --> 00:45:29.889
They were not very sympathetic defendants. James, on the other hand,
739
00:45:31.619 --> 00:45:36.409
And I think that them indicting him drew attention to
740
00:45:36.449 --> 00:45:41.309
the case, which ultimately served the Kers well.
741
00:45:41.789 --> 00:45:44.340
If not for the indictment of James Brown, the case
742
00:45:44.409 --> 00:45:47.280
might have carried on with no scrutiny from the outside world,
743
00:45:48.019 --> 00:45:51.659
no national media or intervention by the Attorney General's office.
744
00:45:52.539 --> 00:45:54.039
The Kers would have been screwed.
745
00:45:54.449 --> 00:45:56.829
The woods behind the Curse House, and I went out
746
00:45:56.849 --> 00:45:58.730
there and looked at it, I mean, there's neighbors all
747
00:45:58.769 --> 00:46:00.570
around it, you know, and you would think there's people
748
00:46:00.610 --> 00:46:04.269
back there in robes and carrying torches, and neighbors would
749
00:46:04.289 --> 00:46:07.940
see stuff like that because they're all right there close by.
750
00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:15.039
The kids talk about a penis-shaped elevator, taking a penis-shaped
751
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:19.300
elevator down into dungeons, and that they didn't just kill Kelly,
752
00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:23.510
that they were sacrificing other babies, and it was just
753
00:46:23.570 --> 00:46:25.849
crazy shit. I don't know how else to say it,
754
00:46:25.880 --> 00:46:32.119
just crazy shit. And they were a whole hog into it. And,
755
00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:36.599
you know, unfortunately, there wasn't anybody there to tap the brakes.
756
00:46:37.639 --> 00:46:39.679
You know, the first time that happened, you know, I
757
00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:41.989
think James tried to do that. I think James tried
758
00:46:42.030 --> 00:46:43.630
to do that. I think he paid price for it.
759
00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:46.110
Shane Phelps knew what he had to do.
760
00:46:46.489 --> 00:46:50.530
It wasn't until getting their files and going through everything
761
00:46:50.550 --> 00:46:54.730
with my team at the EAG's office, investigators and prosecutors,
762
00:46:56.530 --> 00:46:58.889
that we realized, I mean, there was no evidence to
763
00:46:58.929 --> 00:47:02.510
support these indictments. I mean, I can't emphasize it enough.
764
00:47:02.550 --> 00:47:05.619
These were indictments that could lead to the death penalty,
765
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:13.599
which is scary. So we had this summit at the
766
00:47:13.639 --> 00:47:16.389
Attorney General's office where we invited them all up. We
767
00:47:16.409 --> 00:47:19.619
had their files, at least most of them. And I.
768
00:47:22.059 --> 00:47:23.659
I remember I was at the front of the table
769
00:47:23.800 --> 00:47:26.500
talking about it, went through some of the evidence and said, look,
770
00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:28.610
we have to dismiss these cases.
771
00:47:29.179 --> 00:47:32.510
Would James Brown and the Kerrs walk free? And what
772
00:47:32.550 --> 00:47:36.130
about Raymond, the little boy who told CPS workers that
773
00:47:36.210 --> 00:47:38.889
Kelly Wilson had been murdered by the Kerr family?
774
00:47:39.349 --> 00:47:46.420
From seven years old, my head's been full of devil worshipping, killers, cannibalism,
775
00:47:47.300 --> 00:47:48.960
sexual misconduct.
776
00:47:50.420 --> 00:47:55.900
Raymond tells all. In the next chapter of Deviltown. Deviltown
777
00:47:55.980 --> 00:47:58.579
is a production of Imperative Entertainment. It was written and
778
00:47:58.619 --> 00:48:02.320
created by me, Wes Ferguson. Executive producer is Jason Hoke.
779
00:48:02.630 --> 00:48:05.949
Audio engineering and editing by Shane Freeman and Jason Hoke.
780
00:48:06.469 --> 00:48:10.210
Original score is by Robert Ellis. Recording by Austin Sissler
781
00:48:10.489 --> 00:48:13.159
at Eastside Studios. If you like the show, leave a
782
00:48:13.219 --> 00:48:16.099
review and don't forget to tell your friends. Thanks for listening.