The Wreckage | Chapter 7

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This podcast is intended for mature audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
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Sitting right next to the main highway through Gilmer, Texas,
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is an old cinder block building nestled in a leafy
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stand of hardwood trees. The building used to be a cafe,
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but it shut down a long time ago, probably before
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most of us were even born. Now, Don Holman, a
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former suspect in the disappearance of Kelly Wilson, lives in
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that same old cafe with his step son Raymond. This summer,
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I pulled up there on a hot and sticky afternoon.
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Don was outside rifling through the trunk of his car.
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He lifted up a couple of grocery bags from Dollar General.
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In't a hand, Nah, I think I got a hill cuddy. Okay,
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uh yeah, I'll tink a.
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Cookie I get. Let me get in there and we'll have.
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A folk sir.
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You know I don't say I don't say no thanks
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to too many cookies.
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Well, there's nothing wrong with that.
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Folks who knew Don pretty well say he's never been
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able to move on from the Kelly Wilson case. If
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you get him started, it's all he talks about. I mean,
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he was falsely accused of kidnapping and killing a girl
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in a Satanic ritual in the woods outside of town,
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which is the kind of stigma that's hard to shake.
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Gilmer residents who knew Don all their life, people who
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should have known better, really believed he was capable of
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killing Kelly, of killing and eating babies. That's got to
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take a toll. Don and I had been talking for
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a while.
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I want to show you something if you don't mind
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me showings, and I'm gonna show you this.
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I will come up here.
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He'll show you up.
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He led me down a hallway in his house to
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a bedroom filled with paper about to crack.
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Or I want to show you some of the stuff
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that I've done through the years.
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That's my stuff, all about the case?
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Yep, h well do you think that is files?
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Paperwork case?
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You see this right here, that's full of papers.
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Wow.
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Now, if I'd done something wrong, I'll be going.
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I'm getting this ship out of here.
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I'm burning everything.
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I go to Florida, but I ain't to why I
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feel I want. I don't want revenge. I want we
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call it justice.
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Justice.
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But uh, what old Doc Holliday said, you know he goes, No,
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let's get it right. He said he doesn't. He doesn't
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want justice, in wants reparation or something.
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Oh, well, there's retribution.
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Yeah.
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I want them to have to. I want them to say,
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if we guys said Don listen, I'm sorry.
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I ain't want to hurt him.
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But if you're sorry, didn't you tell him I thought
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he was guilty and and I'm.
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Sorry for it?
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Don't I need some justice after talking and writing all
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this stuff, I need some justice. But it don't mean
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I'm gonna get justice.
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Don's ex, remember her name is Tammy, was also wrongly
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accused of being in the Gilbert Devil cult. She says
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Don's obsession with justice or an apology at the very least,
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is ultimately what drove a wedge between them.
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Me and Don just kind of drew apart.
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And you know, Don dealt with all the stuff one way.
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Don didn't drink.
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Don didn't do any of that stuff ever, but he
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started drinking. And to me, out of everybody, it affected
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Don the worst. I mean, to me, it's made him crazy.
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He would not quit talking about it for at least
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ten y That's why quit hanging out and talking to them,
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Because it's all you want done.
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It's time to move on. It's not going to change.
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We're not going to get any money out.
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Of it, for sure, and you just got to start
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living life and dealing with what God gave us.
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To deal with, you know, and be happy that we're
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not in prison.
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I mean, that's I mean for real, you know, we
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could be dead right now or on death row. That's
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that's serious that I see all these innocent people going
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through that crap around the same era, and I'm like, wow,
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we got off by the skin.
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Of our teeth. It was more of a miracle than
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I even realized.
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Despite their differences, Donna Tammy have remained friends.
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We're still cordial. I've got three other kids since.
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You know, I got remarried and and I bring my
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kids over.
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He's met my kids and we talk and we get along. Okay,
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we're not enemies or anything. I know right now that
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if I needed something, Don would give it to me.
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I could ask him and he would help me. He's sick,
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or I try.
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To call him on his birthday, say hey, it don't
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take long for him get on my nerves and I'm like, okay.
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I'm out. I keep telling people. He wouldn't like this
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man was really was he? Please tell me who's got worse.
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Tammy has been more lucky, putting some emotional distance between
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herself and the Kelly Wilson ordeal. But just like don
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she can't move on. She'd like to. She wants to
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put it all behind her. That's not how the world works.
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After all that this happened, I got remarried and I
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just run.
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And made myself forget about all that crowd. And then
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the craziest thing is after I get a divorce, which
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was ten years.
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Ago, I didn't realize how.
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Hard it was going to be for me to even
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I can't even get a job, you know, a decent job.
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Time I get a decent job, they go do a
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background check. I mean, and I don't get it. I
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know for a fact it's because of this. I don't
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even have a car. I haven't had a car in
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ten years. I mean, I have to walk to work.
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I have to get a job close enough to my
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house just to walk to work and back. It's because
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I can't afford nothing. I can't go to a doctor
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because I don't have no money for a doctor.
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I've had nice job opportunities, and they'll say, well, we're
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going to go to a background check and never hear
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from them.
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This is crazy.
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This should not even be on my record because I'm
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struggling now just to barely make it.
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I had a.
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Great opportunity to go work in a cafeteria at the school.
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I mean, to me, that was a great job, you know.
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I mean, I would love to be at working a
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cafeteria at a school.
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There was one where they wanted me to take care
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of a bunch of elderly people at an old folks home.
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That was a great opportunity. Turned down on that anyway,
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I quit trying. I mean, I don't even The only
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jobs I can get are.
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Kid jobs, you know what I mean, Like McDonald's.
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I can get a job at any fast food restaurant,
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but I can't get a job anywhere else.
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Yeah, I'm a cook at a gas station right now.
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Yeah, And it's just miserable. I just you know, I
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want a decent job where I can live. I can't
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even take care of myself right now, and it's not.
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Right bas It's like I'm never going to get this
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off my back.
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But no one has had a tougher time than Raymond.
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He was a little boy when his foster parent coerced
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him into accusing his own mom and stepdad of sacrificing
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Kelly Wilson to the devil.
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Raymond's the one you want to talk to about all
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the I mean, he's got the story.
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Maybe I'll give Raymond your number and let me tell you.
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Raymond, that poor baby, I'm not saying he's crazy, but
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you can tell this is suspected him.
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One time was going down the old three hundred that's
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a highway in Gilmer.
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And he busted out crying. He said, I'm so sorry.
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He said, don I'm so sorry that I said somebody.
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But he said they were hurting me. I said, Raymond,
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I'm not mad you. I'm very proud of you. He said, well,
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they were hurting me. He said they told me that
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y'all was not in jail, y'all was with Luther, and
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that y'all didn't even care nothing about him. And I said, no,
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that's not true, Raymond, we was in jail. He said,
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I didn't know that.
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Though, I'd have been so traumatizing.
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It was.
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And man, if you want to get him r all up,
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if he gets talking about it, I had to quiet
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it down. He's gonna throw still and everything. But he
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said he'll he'll get mad, he said, son of a bitches.
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He said, yeah, what did they do to me over there?
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They left me over there and getting abused and everything
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that ain't righting, and they ain't gonna do nothing for
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nobody on and uh.
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Where is he?
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He went?
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Probably off with his brother, uh fishing. But if you
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get him to talking now, he's gonna be pretty radical.
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I'll try to.
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Tell him, said Raymond, Now, don't go ape shits.
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But just because.
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He's not a mean guy.
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I mean, look at this house.
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He painted this house from me, and he can put
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down flooring and everything. I mean, you look aware, look
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at that he painted and everything. But when he goes
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into one of them rages, he you think sometime he's
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really for everybody else and he's kind of mad that
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same people we.
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Are who wouldn't be mad. The next time I came
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by Don's place, Raymond was home. He seemed pretty guarded
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at first.
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Honestly, I'm honest with you, I didn't even want to
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talk with you, like I really didn't, uh, Non asked me.
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The other day, he kind of got upset because I
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told him. He said, hey, he wants to come and
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talk with you. I told him I don't have anything
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to say to him.
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Then Raymond started talking and he couldn't stop from imperative entertainment.
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I'm wes Ferguson. This is Deviltown. This is chapter seven
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the Wreckage. To understand what happened in Gilmer, you need
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to understand that all this was going on right in
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the middle of the Satanic Panic, a time when fear
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of devil cults was sweeping the United States. It was
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basically a national witch hunt in the eighties and nineties,
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thousands of lurid cases from coast to coast of so
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called satanic ritual abuse. And the crazy thing is there
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was almost no evidence for any of it. It took
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three factors coming together to create the perfect Satan storm.
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For one thing, people were finally taking child abuse seriously.
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Child abuse was a real problem that had been ignored
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far too long. Second was a revival in evangelical beliefs
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with a big emphasis on the devil. He wasn't just
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a metaphor for the dark side of human nature. Satan
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was real, and if you let your guard down, he
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was coming for you. I remember when I was a
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little kid, a traveling expert gave a talk at our
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Baptist church. The next thing I knew, my he Man
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toys were gone and I couldn't watch the care Bears anymore.
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Those were the devil's playthings. The factor fueling the Satanic
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panic was a controversial practice of psychotherapy called recovered memory therapy.
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The idea behind recovered memories was that you might have
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experienced something so traumatic your brain won't even let you
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think about it. You push it down, leave it buried,
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and the recesses of your subconscious To deal with these
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awful memories, you have to dredge them up. Back in
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ninety four, after all the charges in the Kelly Wilson
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case were dropped, the Texas Attorney General's Office brought in
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a child psychiatrist named Bruce D. Perry. His job sort
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through the mess and try to figure out which of
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the Kirk kids and Raymond had actually been abused and
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which hadn't. It wasn't so easy, and that leads us
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back to holding therapy and Raymond. Despite all the courtroom
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drama that had occurred with the release of the eight suspects,
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including James York Brown and Raymond's mom Tammy and his
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stepdad Dawn. Raymond was still with his foster Barbara Bass.
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She must have truly believed she was helping Raymond to
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recover traumatic memories. Every time she held him down and
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dug her knuckles into his ribs until he told her
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what she wanted to hear. The experience left Raymond so
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scarred he was afraid to go around grown ups at all.
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Then Barbara Bass drove him to Dallas to meet with
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doctor Perry, the child psychiatrist.
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I didn't trust Bruce Perry at first. All adults in
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my mind were out to get me. I was like,
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you can't trust any of these people, Like they're all
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gonna try to hurt us. They're lying, they're all like
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something's wrong with them. They're talking about killing people and
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eating them and devils and just like everything that I
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was scared of.
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Raymond didn't really have anything to say to doctor Perry,
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so they sat down and colored together. Days later, doctor
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Perry showed up at the Bass's place in East Texas.
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Bruce would come by the house he got to where
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he would and call me to his office to talk,
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00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:03.320
and he would come out there to the Bass home
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00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:09.759
and visit with me. Well, he would always be like,
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00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:12.159
on a special occasion, he'd always bring me something like
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00:14:12.200 --> 00:14:15.519
pair of boxing gloves or a basketball or baseball and
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00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:18.120
a glove and a mint, you know, play catch. He
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00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:21.879
would never ask me questions about my parents and stuff
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00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:25.519
like that. It was just on a you know, hey man,
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I came back to see you. How are you doing today?
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So it took a while, but he told me, he said, Raymond,
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00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:32.320
he said, when I met you, he said, I knew
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00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:36.320
that you didn't trust He said, I knew that you
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00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:38.759
were scared of adults and didn't trust adults. He said,
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00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:41.320
I didn't know why, because he didn't know I was
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00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:45.679
being amused by Barbara basket person. But he said, then
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I started seeing how Barbara acted when I was at
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the home, he said. I'd see her in my office.
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00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:56.360
I seen how she presented herself with the kids. You
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00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:58.840
know y'all, he said. But then when i'd pop up
278
00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:01.240
in on y'all at the high he said, I've seen
279
00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:04.320
how the other kids were reacted to her, how they
280
00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:05.120
reacted to me.
281
00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:08.360
Barbara had the Kirk kids and Raymond so trained up
282
00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:11.600
they would spout off the answers they thought adults wanted
283
00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:14.559
to hear. Doctor Perry came up with a clever way
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00:15:14.679 --> 00:15:15.919
to get to the truth.
285
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:20.200
And he basically tricked me. And what he did is
286
00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:23.720
he brought a device that it was a heart monitor.
287
00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:26.600
It was like a vest and it had a watch,
288
00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:29.559
and he would wear the watch and it would tell
289
00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:32.399
my heart rate. And he knew when I got nervous
290
00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:34.679
about things, that my heart rate going up and down.
291
00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:38.879
So with Raymond wearing a heart monitor, doctor Perry asked
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00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:42.840
him questions about Kelly Wilson and the abuse allegations. As
293
00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:45.879
Raymond launched into the gruesome story he thought doctor Perry
294
00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:49.159
wanted to hear. His heart rate stayed the same, He
295
00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:53.639
wasn't traumatized at all. Then doctor Perry asked Raymond about
296
00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:57.240
Barbara Bass holding him down and rubbing his ribs. That's
297
00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:01.759
when Raymond's heart rate spiked. That's what had traumatized him,
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00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:04.559
not a fanciful story about sacrificing babies.
299
00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:07.039
That was the day that I had told him that
300
00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:10.120
Barbara Bass, you know, about the holding technique and what
301
00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:13.360
she had been doing, because until then I hadn't told
302
00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:15.919
all these other doctors and you know, I'd only told
303
00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.799
those foster parents that my first foster parents and and Gore,
304
00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:21.840
they were the only people that I had told that
305
00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:24.559
Barbara Bass was doing this. So I won't like, like
306
00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:26.480
when they, you know, the Basses would take us out
307
00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:28.679
with somebody else, I wouldn't tell them, like, hey man,
308
00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:31.320
this lady's like all of us kids are getting like
309
00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:33.720
messed up by this lady. Like, you know, like because
310
00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:36.360
I didn't know who was with who, like and I was,
311
00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:41.200
I was terrified of Barbara Bass. Like I still don't
312
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:43.879
like wearing seat belts, I don't like hogs, I don't
313
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:49.679
like things around my rib cage like. But Bruce Perry, uh,
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00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:53.080
he ended up being like somebody I hold high regards,
315
00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:57.799
like in my mind as far as respect because he uh,
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00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:00.360
pretty much he's the reason that we got out of
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00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:00.840
that home.
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00:17:01.159 --> 00:17:04.519
Doctor Perry decided that Raymond needed a change of scenery.
319
00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:07.319
The whole time he'd been living in Barbara Bass's house,
320
00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:09.440
Raymond had been with his little brother Luther.
321
00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:11.720
That was one of the last things my mom has
322
00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:13.480
told me. She said, you know, you take care of
323
00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:19.440
your baby brother, right, And so when I was at
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00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:22.440
the Bass home, I was real over protective over eat
325
00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:24.920
because he was still a baby. And so when the
326
00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:27.079
other kids would go to pick on him or went
327
00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:29.079
and you know, let him have his way, I was
328
00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:33.480
always you know, they're like real defensive over room. And
329
00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:39.640
then one day they ended up they separated us. They
330
00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:44.880
they took us to Tyler to go see my mom.
331
00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:49.759
Point I won't allowed to see don anymore. And then uh,
332
00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:52.559
they told Barbara Bass they were taking all us kids
333
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:57.920
to like Burger King, and then uh, they took me
334
00:17:58.119 --> 00:17:59.519
and drove me out to Waco.
335
00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:03.640
Te Raymond was taken to a Methodist children's home in Waco.
336
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:06.039
Met a kid there and he told me, he said, Raymond,
337
00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:08.960
he said, I don't know what all you've been through,
338
00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:12.480
you know, he said, but uh, once you get to
339
00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:15.960
this home, you don't get to go home, like you know,
340
00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:18.799
like everybody here, like we don't get to see our
341
00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:22.200
parents no more, like you know, we're here till we're eighteen,
342
00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:24.000
or we get adopted or something.
343
00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:28.599
Believing he had no chance of being reunited with his mom, stepdad,
344
00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:32.640
and baby brother, Raymond lost hope. He started getting in trouble.
345
00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:36.359
His caregivers sent him down the hill to a facility
346
00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:37.799
for the bad kids.
347
00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:41.960
And when I was down down that hill they had
348
00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:44.519
that was like for all the troublemakers in that home.
349
00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:47.240
And I was the youngest one down there. They were
350
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:49.880
all like sixteen seventeen, most of them because they were
351
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:53.680
the bad kids, you know. And uh so I picked
352
00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:56.119
up a lot of bad habits from those kids. They're
353
00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:59.200
huffing glue and all kinds of crazy stuff.
354
00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.440
Raymond was just eight years old, and probably he struck
355
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:06.319
up a friendship with a boy of sixteen, and that
356
00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:08.640
kid had a plan to break out.
357
00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:09.279
You know.
358
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:11.519
He was like, look, he said, when we go to school,
359
00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:14.319
he said, uh, act up in school. And he said,
360
00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:16.720
they're gonna send us back here to our dorm rooms.
361
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:19.119
He said, when they bring us to lunch, he said,
362
00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:21.039
we're gonna take our food and put it in bags.
363
00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:23.799
And he said, we're already gonna have our clothes packed up.
364
00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:26.319
And he said, I know how to get us out
365
00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:29.079
of here. He throw that fire exinger fro through the
366
00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:33.240
window and we ran out and hid from him. It
367
00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:37.079
was a big property and we ran into the night.
368
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:40.359
You know, it got dark, and I think finally like
369
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:43.640
a security guard spotlighted me. I was along the fence line,
370
00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:45.839
and I couldn't climb the chain link fence like I
371
00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:48.400
was eight years old, you know. And the kid I
372
00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:51.400
was with jumped the border fence and took off. They
373
00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:53.519
ended up catching him like an hour or two later.
374
00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:57.400
After Raymond's ill fated escape attempt, he was sent to
375
00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:01.599
another place, a boys ranch. Raymond had spent two years
376
00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:05.279
in foster care. One day, an associate of Raymond's old friend,
377
00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:08.960
doctor Bruce Perry, the child's psychiatrist, came to visit Raymond
378
00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:09.640
at the ranch.
379
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:13.480
Bill Baker came to see me one day and he said, Raymond,
380
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:15.839
you want to come take a walk with me? And
381
00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:20.640
I said yeah, And I started walking with him and
382
00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:23.839
we were talking be out there. They had ponds and stuff,
383
00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:27.400
and he stopped over there by the pond and he
384
00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:28.839
looked at him and said, Raymond, I want to ask
385
00:20:28.839 --> 00:20:32.039
you something. He said, I'm serious, and I said what
386
00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:35.079
He said, You want to go home to your mama.
387
00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:40.480
And I remember I started crying and I was like, yeah,
388
00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:44.039
I want to go home. And it took him about
389
00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:47.240
a week or two later and they drove me here
390
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:51.279
to the Yamborie grounds here in Gilmer and dropped me
391
00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:53.200
off with my mom. They were like, here you go,
392
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:59.200
like and like all my aunts and uncles were there,
393
00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:01.640
and that was the first time I'd seen them in years,
394
00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:04.160
so I was like, it was just like real exciting.
395
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:07.799
And then uh, and then later on that night I
396
00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:09.880
got to you know, we stopped by here and Luther
397
00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:14.319
and Don were here at the house, like Don's mother
398
00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:22.160
was here, So that was like, it was a good day.
399
00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:27.000
I got up Luther back first, and then Raymond was
400
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:29.960
like six months later, I guess, and they bought him
401
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:33.000
a bedroom suit apiece, and that was it.
402
00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:41.160
Sorry, we screwed up your kids. Our bad We screwed
403
00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:43.359
your kids up. Here you go figure it out.
404
00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.200
You won't be able to get a job anywhere, won't
405
00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:47.759
be able to do anything with your life, but.
406
00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:48.279
Here you go.
407
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:52.200
Although Don was there to greet Raymond on the day
408
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:54.640
he got out of foster care, Don and Tammy were
409
00:21:54.680 --> 00:21:58.519
no longer a couple. The family Raymond remembered was no more.
410
00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:04.799
After all this was over. It really wasn't over because
411
00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:09.680
when I came home, my mom and Don had already
412
00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:21.640
split up. Me and my mom bounced around. So just
413
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:25.200
give me a different outlook on things. Put me on
414
00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:30.359
like a don't trust authority type thing when I was
415
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:32.240
in school. I remember when I came home. The day
416
00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:37.839
I came home, I can remember like telling myself, I
417
00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:43.440
don't care whatever happens from this day forwards, because by
418
00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:46.400
the time I came home, I never thought I was
419
00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:53.400
going to see them again. So when they brought me home,
420
00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:58.640
that was like it was like the best day, you
421
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:02.680
know what I mean. Like in my mind, I'm thinking,
422
00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:07.400
I don't care. What if I never achieve a goal
423
00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:10.440
in my life or graduate high school or you know
424
00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:12.839
the things that when you're a kid, like that's what
425
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:14.720
in your mind, you're like, Oh, when I grow up,
426
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:17.119
I wanted to be this. I felt like all my
427
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:21.920
prayers had minute. I got to come home, but it
428
00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:24.319
really won't like come home and you think you're going
429
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:28.440
right back to your home, and I didn't. You know,
430
00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:32.480
don took custody of Luther, my mom had custody of me.
431
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:38.480
We were all together, but we won't together. And I
432
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:40.759
remember like having to carry that guilt with me for
433
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:43.119
a while, which I already had feeling like I broke
434
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:48.279
my family apart and going through all.
435
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.480
This despite their reassurances. Raymond couldn't shake the feeling that
436
00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:56.079
Donna and Tammy resented him for his role in their arrests.
437
00:23:56.799 --> 00:23:58.599
They were sitting there in jail. I'm sure they were
438
00:23:58.599 --> 00:24:00.799
probably sitting there at times and thinking, what in the
439
00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:04.559
hell is Raymond talking about? Why would he why would
440
00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:07.119
his little ass be out in there fucking lying on us? Like,
441
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:10.440
because that's how I would feel. It gives you a
442
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:13.720
different perspective of it.
443
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:14.440
I guess.
444
00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:19.000
I just think that every kid in your shoes would
445
00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:22.960
have done the same thing. I think that's just I mean,
446
00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:25.240
it's happened again and again. You know what if you
447
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:31.039
for worse torture, you know, a kid, the kids eventually,
448
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:33.599
just every kid is going to tell the adult what
449
00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:34.279
they want to hear.
450
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:37.400
You know, it's not it's not you.
451
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:42.519
It's all children and adults too. Adults when they were
452
00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:46.480
waterboarding them guys over there at uh Anamo Bay, when
453
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:50.240
they were over there waterboarding them Muslims. Not all that
454
00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:54.799
intel is a Bible like they know that. Like so
455
00:24:55.960 --> 00:24:59.119
like it gives you a different view on things. Like
456
00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:02.079
I said, it's just a bit trust issue thing. So
457
00:25:02.279 --> 00:25:07.440
from seven years old, my head's been full of double
458
00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:15.960
worshiping killers, cannibalism, sexual misconduct. I was submerged in that
459
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:19.400
type of atmosphere. People they just want to go off
460
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:22.519
and tell off what they hear. So trust is like
461
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:25.200
a big issue with me because i had trust broken
462
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:27.880
at a very early age, and I've seen how the
463
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:30.559
system could be corrupt, and I think, you know, like
464
00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:32.759
sometimes I think about it and I'm like, what if
465
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:35.799
Barbara Bass really did have good intentions even though I
466
00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:38.319
was their first hand and seeing the fucked up side
467
00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:40.599
of it. But like in the back of my mind,
468
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:42.759
I'm like, well, maybe, you know, maybe it was just
469
00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:44.400
something that kind of like, you know, one thing led
470
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:45.960
to another, led to another, lad to another.
471
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.960
It was this chain of events, and when he first
472
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:52.640
came home from foster care, he had a love for her.
473
00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:54.400
I don't know if they call it stockson.
474
00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:58.319
That's Raymond's mom, Tammy, talking about his conflicted feelings for
475
00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:02.799
Barbara Bass. Stockholm syndrome is where hostages form emotional bonds
476
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:03.640
with their captors.
477
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:07.680
You know, I'd get so angry, you know, but I
478
00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:10.480
knew it was his faults, and I just I don't
479
00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:12.480
know how long it took it took him to get
480
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:15.400
over that, But you know, maybe a year or so
481
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:19.079
he got you know, the hatred of them started coming
482
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:21.440
out little by little, and.
483
00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:25.680
Then part of me goes, well, what if it was
484
00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:28.920
all like some kind of big scam. You think about
485
00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:32.359
every scenario. When there's a question mark and you don't
486
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:35.279
know the answer, you start putting anything in there for
487
00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:39.799
an answer, to see what fits. Affects everything I'm uh,
488
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:45.119
the way I interact with people, just everything I'm really
489
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:47.519
It's affected my life a lot. I don't I don't
490
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:51.279
care for strangers. I like I like being around big
491
00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:54.680
like crowds, but I didn't finish high school. Driving down
492
00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:57.759
the street going to work, somebody on the side of
493
00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:02.119
the street stranded, I don't want to stop. I don't
494
00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:05.240
want to be that person to involve myself. I want
495
00:27:05.319 --> 00:27:08.119
to stop. I want to pull over and get out
496
00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:10.000
and say, hey, man, are y'all all right? Y'all need
497
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:12.119
to use a cell phone? You need some waters? I
498
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:14.200
got back here in the truck. Can I give you
499
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:17.839
a ride into town? But I never stopped for him
500
00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:22.000
because I don't want to be involved in anybody, you
501
00:27:22.039 --> 00:27:23.720
know that's outside of my circle.
502
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:29.480
I left my conversation with Raymond feeling just so sad
503
00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:43.000
he's a broken man. When all the charges were dropped
504
00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:45.680
in the Kelly Wilson case, Folks and Gilmert were left
505
00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:48.319
to sort through the wreckage. Scott Leefford went back to
506
00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:53.279
private practice. Caseworkers A Gore and Debbie Minshew resigned from CPS.
507
00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:56.960
Connie Martin, the one time witness, moved down to Special
508
00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:01.720
Investigator Brooks Flags Christian Retreat in Louise. This place called
509
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:05.519
the Shepherd's Rest. A local news reporter tracked down Connie
510
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:08.640
at the Shepherd's Rest and East Texans were in for
511
00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:09.839
yet another shock.
512
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:13.559
Martin asked to be interviewed without Flag present. She said
513
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:15.240
she had something important to say.
514
00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:17.440
I'll just come out and tell you what it is.
515
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:20.240
Because the Kelly Wilson thing is not true.
516
00:28:20.839 --> 00:28:24.079
Martin says she was coerced into confessing to taking part
517
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:27.960
in Kelly Wilson's murder and tricked into leveling murder accusations
518
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:31.599
against other family members and friends along with Gilmour police
519
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:32.759
sergeant James Brown.
520
00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:37.480
They's practically tell me what was said, and I would
521
00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:39.440
say that it didn't happen. They'd say yes it did,
522
00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:43.519
and I would say no, it didn't. I keep pressure
523
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:46.319
me and say, no, I know what did happen.
524
00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:49.680
Brooks Flag had a lot to worry about, as did
525
00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:53.079
the other members of the special prosecutors team. Shane Phelps,
526
00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:55.880
the Assistant Attorney General for the State of Texas, was
527
00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:59.799
threatening to turn the tables and file criminal charges against them.
528
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:02.279
Here's Shane, And.
529
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:07.119
Ultimately I subpeeded all of them to the grand jury
530
00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:09.440
and told them that they were targets of the grand
531
00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:13.240
jury because I was seriously contemplating and dining them for
532
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:17.279
official oppression because it was so wrong what they did.
533
00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:18.920
So I didn't do that one.
534
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:25.319
Because this had been this whole satanic nonsense, had been
535
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:29.880
such a distraction that nobody was devoting any resources to
536
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:35.759
finding Kelly Wilson. It was nobody. I knew that if
537
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:37.920
I had indicted them, and I could have indited it,
538
00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:40.519
and I could have convicted it. There's no question in
539
00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:43.759
my mind that if I had done that, then that
540
00:29:43.880 --> 00:29:45.920
would have been the story. That's what people would have
541
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:48.640
been talking about. That's where all of our resources would
542
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:50.920
have been devoted. And I didn't want that. I wanted to
543
00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:53.079
see if we could find Kelly Wilson and get some
544
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:57.519
answers for the parents. So I made the decision not to.
545
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:01.359
I've gone back and forth over the years. I guess
546
00:30:01.400 --> 00:30:04.799
it was so outrageous. It would have been a good
547
00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:08.119
thing for I think everything to have been aired in
548
00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:10.759
court so the public could have seen what an operation
549
00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:14.440
this investigation was, and they would have been as angry
550
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:16.920
as that was, because we could have put experts on
551
00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:20.039
the stand about interrogation techniques, and there's not a single
552
00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:23.559
person with any kind of expertise in police interrogation tactics
553
00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:28.920
who would not have said that was so far beyond acceptable.
554
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:33.720
The Lifeer team had narrowly avoided criminal prosecution. James Brown
555
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:36.880
tried a different tack. Just two months after the charges
556
00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:40.079
against Sergeant Brown were dropped, he filed a civil lawsuit
557
00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:43.640
against Special Prosecutor Scott Leifford and the members of the team,
558
00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:47.519
alleging malicious prosecution. James Brown told the news media that
559
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:51.319
Gilmer residents were shunning him in the streets. His reputation
560
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:52.839
was destroyed.
561
00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:55.400
I always thought Jians was sort of a black and
562
00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:58.319
white kind of guy, but not a whold on a
563
00:30:58.359 --> 00:31:04.519
gray Keith Fields betrayed by the justice system, not only
564
00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:08.200
with what happened with the accusation but then what happened
565
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:13.000
when he tried to go redress what had happened in
566
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:14.000
his civil lawsuit.
567
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:16.359
This is James Brown's attorney, David Moore.
568
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:22.279
When the charges were dismissed, we filed, along with Andy Tyndall,
569
00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:29.240
lawyer over in Tyler, a civil rights lawsuit against Lafford's
570
00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:35.839
law firm, Bag's Flag, Gore Minshew, and the court reached
571
00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:40.359
the decision that because the Flags and Bag were acting
572
00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:45.519
under the color of law enforcement, that they had qualified immunity,
573
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:50.759
as did Goren Minshew and poured us out in federal
574
00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:55.599
court saying that we can get over the qualified immunity hump,
575
00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:59.559
I think we did. You know, I disagree with the
576
00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:04.839
judge's decision in that deal. But yeah, it's just it's
577
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:06.799
just a shame, just a shame.
578
00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:08.200
Here's James Brown.
579
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:11.160
That's what can be done to them.
580
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:12.400
They're wrongdoings.
581
00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:20.599
Being held accountable, they slip through the cracks, you know.
582
00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:24.799
So it's like old opening Pandora's box on the justice
583
00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:28.559
system if they are held accountable, and they don't want
584
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:29.000
to do that.
585
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:32.880
And that's the sad part about it.
586
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:38.839
And my feelings are, you know, like I said, they
587
00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:44.079
should have done something to those people. But the way
588
00:32:44.200 --> 00:32:48.599
the system is set up, they have immunity to certain things.
589
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:51.039
You know, no matter if they lie.
590
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:56.720
Or falsify stuff for hurt people, they don't care and
591
00:32:56.759 --> 00:32:59.640
they go on about their little lives. And I don't
592
00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:03.440
believe that that's the way the justice system was set up.
593
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:03.920
The beach.
594
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:10.640
I believe that you tail the truth, and the truth
595
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:11.359
is the truth.
596
00:33:14.359 --> 00:33:16.240
And I've always believed that.
597
00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:22.799
How big of a problem is qualified immunity in protecting
598
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:23.680
bad actors.
599
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:26.480
I think it's a huge problem. And you know, you
600
00:33:26.519 --> 00:33:31.759
see a lot of discussions about on the federal level
601
00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:40.319
of removing that qualified immunity that cops have to lawsuits.
602
00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:44.759
One thing that really shocked me talking to the boy
603
00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:49.640
who was subjected to the holding technique, Raymond is long.
604
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:52.599
Tammy said, So she.
605
00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:58.960
Thirty years later, still can't get a decent job, can't
606
00:33:58.960 --> 00:33:59.559
afford car.
607
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:02.880
She walks from her apartment where she rents.
608
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:05.559
A room, to the nearest gas station and just runs
609
00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:06.799
the deep fryer every day.
610
00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:10.440
And she, you know, every time she applies for a job,
611
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:11.159
like even.
612
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:14.000
To be a lunch lady at the school, is say like, oh,
613
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:16.159
you're great, you know, like we can't wait to.
614
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:18.119
Work with you. We just have to run a background check.
615
00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:21.960
And then they run the background checks, they find out
616
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:24.559
that she has these hot molestation charges.
617
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:26.199
She never hears another.
618
00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:28.760
Word from them, So it's really I mean, it's just
619
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:30.679
ruined her life for decades.
620
00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:38.880
Right, it's a stigma that you can't get passed.
621
00:34:41.559 --> 00:34:43.440
I mean, is there anything that can be done for
622
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:47.320
these people at this point?
623
00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:50.519
I'll tell you what. Next time you talk to her,
624
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:52.079
have her call me. I'll be glad to talk to
625
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:54.840
her and say there's something we can do to help her,
626
00:34:54.880 --> 00:35:00.280
because that ought not be a cloud still following her.
627
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:04.719
Thirty years later, I passed along David's message to Tammy.
628
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:07.360
When she called his law firm, she was told it
629
00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:11.639
would cost six thousand dollars to clear her record, So
630
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:14.599
she'll keep walking to work at the gas station. Some
631
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:18.840
folks are just too poor for justice. As for Kelly Wilson,
632
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:23.480
missing since January fifth, nineteen ninety two, she's still out there.
633
00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:27.119
It bugs me, thirty years later what happened. It bugs
634
00:35:27.159 --> 00:35:30.840
me for James's sake and his family. It bugs me
635
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:35.519
for Kelly's sake and her family because I think I
636
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:38.760
think that they damaged what should have been a real
637
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:42.119
investigation into her disappearance, and I think it got sidetracked
638
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:46.519
for years as a result of these with these guys
639
00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:51.079
and gals did and it's just it's a shame. It's
640
00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:51.519
a shame.
641
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:55.000
Sergeant Brown never returned to the Gilmer Police Force. His
642
00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:58.000
days as a cop were done. He eventually found work
643
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:01.039
as a prison guard his life. Penny had stood by
644
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:03.760
his side when he was accused of kidnapping and murdering
645
00:36:03.800 --> 00:36:08.480
Kelly Wilson, but the legal ordeal changed him. Here's Penny, Well.
646
00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:18.599
It's pretty much made him feel insecure, angry. He was
647
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:23.079
a nervous wreck. I think he felt lost, you know,
648
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:28.320
it's just terrible. He was on medication, an I depressant.
649
00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:32.760
He saw a psychiatrist and we both saw a counselor
650
00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:37.039
together to try to deal with all the emotions of
651
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:41.079
what had happened and how it was affecting this. He
652
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:44.000
was on a lot of medication and then he had
653
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:47.079
that many stroke.
654
00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:51.280
Several years after the charges were dropped, James and Penny
655
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:55.239
Brown got divorced, and as I learned from poking around Gilmer,
656
00:36:55.480 --> 00:36:57.960
a lot of these Texans still believe he's guilty.
657
00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:01.760
That's the bad part of it at all. You know,
658
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:02.800
sometimes people.
659
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:05.440
Want to believe alive and the truth because the truth
660
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:07.039
isn't near as fantastic.
661
00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:10.400
I think it's still like that to this day.
662
00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:12.920
Yeah, they rather believe a lie.
663
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:18.920
Than believe the truth. You know, that's treating I just
664
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:23.400
get to the point of not won't even talk about
665
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:29.559
it because it's not about me. It's about Robbie and
666
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:32.360
his daughter finding hurt.
667
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:35.679
Despite all he's been through and all the time that's
668
00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:39.760
gone by, James Brown still believes Kelly Wilson will be found.
669
00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:43.800
He believes that someday Kelly's parents will have closure.
670
00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:48.599
There's several suspects that are still open. Not everything lies
671
00:37:48.639 --> 00:37:51.119
at one door until you find the final key.
672
00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:51.960
You know.
673
00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:56.199
That's that's more or less objective investigation. You don't draw
674
00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:58.719
a conclusion to one person in see you know for
675
00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:00.440
a fact that person is person.
676
00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:01.880
You know what they say.
677
00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:03.480
Nowadays, there's persons.
678
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:07.119
Of the interests will in this case, there's Saberle.
679
00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:11.679
Them the case of a missing girl got lost. In
680
00:38:11.719 --> 00:38:16.199
all the hysteria, Kelly is still out there somewhere with
681
00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:19.480
the satanic panic a distant memory. I want to Know
682
00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:25.679
What Really Happened to Kelly Wilson. Deviltown is a production
683
00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:28.440
of Imperative Entertainment. It was written and created by me
684
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:32.719
Wes Ferguson. Executive producer is Jason Hoak. Audio engineering and
685
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:36.480
editing by Shane Freeman and Jason Hoak. Original score is
686
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:40.639
by Robert Ellis, recording by Austin Sisler at east Side Studios.
687
00:38:40.840 --> 00:38:43.159
If you like the show, leave a review, and don't
688
00:38:43.159 --> 00:38:45.239
forget to tell your friends thanks for listening.