The Substance (2024): Destroyed by Beauty Standards | Deconstructing Horror

riverside edit 05 rebecca, kristy, rev. +1 ryan does: Hello everyone, welcome to this episode of Deconstructing Horror. On today's episode, we are going to be breaking down the modern classic, the substance, and talking about bodily autonomy, talking about the male gaze, all sorts of just fun, breezy topics. And we're doing this with one of our panel members is already super thrilled. You can tell by the look on her face. But Christy Whaley, Leah Robinson, and Rebecca Lynn Thomas are back for a discussion about. This movie that came out a few years ago in 2024 and just kind of like has had staying power. This movie is one of those modern movies where when people talk about an instant classic, this is one of the movies that gets often mentioned in those topics. So Christy, I we we've gotta get the we gotta get this out of the way. We gotta rip the band-aid off. Maybe tell people like what your first impression of the substance was and why you weren't exactly thrilled with me after watching it. I hated it so much. Like it was still loved me though? So gross You know, she died We've waned on that, never mind. I have I have plenty of notes in here and none of them are fuck Ryan. So well fantastic. So that's good. I do remember you sharing the notes, it was like gross, why, gross, why? The the last thing I wrote was I am so unhappy. Which could be attributed to you, Ryan. So why did you make my friend so unhappy? Yeah, what did it that's my job? As a good friend, Leah, were you supportive of Christy watching The Substance for the first time or are you? I mean, I try to get her to watch everything all the time. I'm currently trying to get her to watch HS Coven. She's been sending me so many AHS Coven things as if I'm super aware. I won't watch that either. Christy, just so you know, in this together. Thank you. Yeah. It's a great feminist. Solidarity. I'm sure it is. Leah, what what was your first impression of the substance? Because I know you but you don't really like body horror, if I remembering correctly. It's not my favorite. I I don't like body horror and I don't like warporn. Those are sort of where I kinda and home invasions, those are my three. I'm like, nope. I don't want any strangers coming to visit me anytime. I'm out. But did you enjoy this family friendly movie? It went a little off the rails at the end, but I feel like the message was was was good and and I appreciated what it said. I think Demi Moore should have gotten not what she got for it. I think it was I don't think I've ever seen her back like that, you know? She was incredible. I will She was incredible. Holy shit. But then like sort of there was a moment where the moment where Stuart checked out was when he was eating the shrimp and I just was like I don't I had to look five minutes into the movie. It's like right at the beginning. I know it was it sure was. And but I had to look away because and all I could think of was Christy because she's a vegetarian and I was like, I bet she hates it was so gross. It was so gross. But it had such a good message. The message was so like and then him walking off with that older guy. We don't have to get into it anyway. I would say I think it was worth the hype For the message that it portrayed. I do think it went a little it we there was some editing that could occur at the end. It was those little batcrap banana pants at the end. Yeah. Yeah. But otherwise, and then Demi Moore is was great in it. So that's my summary. Rebecca, you were the most I will say you were the most outwardly supportive of the substance because when I had mentioned this, we've been planning the this episode and the conversation that we recently did about Carrie for a while. And I remember us talking about the substance and you being like, my gosh, I would totally talk about that movie. And I was like, Rebecca's a sicko. Like this is like this is gonna be great. So like first impression of the substance, because I love body horror. I think it's a great subgenre that certain people aren't giving enough credit to. but so I'm interesting to people. I'm not gonna say that I'm a fan of body horror necessarily. But I really, really like this movie. And I watched it last fall, I think. My daughter and I watched it together. And I first of all, I've already told Ryan this, I only watch scary movies in the daytime because I won't watch them when it's nighttime. I just will not do that. And so I was like, I if this movie's gonna freak me out at all, I'm gonna watch it in the daytime. And I think one of the reasons that I was like so ecstatic or excited about this is because I didn't get as like freaked out or as grossed out as I thought I was going to by this movie, which is kind of opposite to what I think I read about, right? Like it is body horror. It is like these extreme scenes and especially the end, which I did feel like the end was very over the top. And like you go through this whole movie and then The end is just so different than the whole rest of the entire movie. So that's one thing that I was just like, God, that was kind of feels like a cheap ending a little bit for all the stuff we had to go through to get there. But I loved so much about it. Like from the costumes to the lighting changes to like the the camera angles. Like Dennis Quaid's character and the camera angles they use on him are so poignant. And I love that because it's like you don't even really I don't know, it just tells so much of the story just with that. Yeah. And I did rewatch it a little bit today and there were a couple other things where like the beginning made so much more sense the second time. So if people can withstand a second watch, I think there are things about like the egg at the beginning made more sense to me. The Hollywood star at the beginning made more sense to me. So like if you can get through it and then go back and rewatch the even if you just rewatch that intro, I felt like, okay, I understand so much more about like why those things were in there. 'Cause it felt weird the first watch, I think. But I loved it. I loved so much about it. I loved the pettiness that happens in it because I think that just says a lot about what's going on in the story. but I think it's a great, great is allegory the right word for like kind of what we live through as women. Yeah. Yeah. And the choices we have to make. So yeah. I I I think there's just There's no argument, or or maybe maybe Christy has something. but like the director, Coralie Bergeau, like she did such a good job with how this movie is not not just like the story, but like it is a be it is both a beautiful and traumatizingly gross movie. Like like there are moments where it's like, my gosh, this is like this is like the most beautiful like scene I've ever seen. But then like the next scene, and we'll talk about like my my least favorite scene of this movie, where it's just like, my gosh, I wish I had a quit when Stuart quit. Like that kind of thing. But I want to give some details about the film and then we're gonna throw out a few discussion points and break down as best as we can the substance. so it was directed by Coralie Vergeau, French filmmaker who please make more movies. Like just please. If for some reason Coralie Fair Joe ever sees my face on the screen talking about her movie, make more movies until the day you die, and not a day like don't quit a day sooner. It stars Demi Moore, Margaret Qually, who also deserves a lot of praise for her performance at Sue. Yeah. And then Dennis Quaid also like sneakily one of my favorite Dennis Quaid performances because he makes you hate him instantly and for the right reason. Yep. Yeah. This movie was released at the Cannes Film Festival early on in 2024 in May, but then it got its wide release in September of the same year of 2024. And it follows a fading Hollywood icon, Elizabeth Sparkle, played by Demi Moore. she is brutally discard she is brutally discarded by an exploitative studio executive played by Dennis Quaid named Harvey, simply for turning 50. She has been on this workout show for a long time and she is in her in his eyes she's lost her sparkle. So she's consumed with crippling self-hatred. She injects a black market serum that allows her to birth a younger, more perfect version of herself to take her place, named Sue, played by Margaret Qually. However, as Sue thrives in the industry and takes Elizabeth's spot, she starts to take more and more Time. There's a process by which they switch and share this life, but Sue starts taking more and more and more, and it starts to have these grotesque ramifications on Demi Moore's body. And it leads all to this explosive third act in so many ways, both literal and metaphorical. Like where during a New Year's Eve party, the the battle that is mostly internal becomes very external. And the two characters They take it out on some people and it just kind of goes into this crazy next level. And it's a it's a descent into madness that's kind of it's saddening, but also just grotesque. And it's a a beautiful movie in a few different ways. But the substance shows how women resort to extreme self-hatred to meet beauty standards. And that's I remember when Rebecca and I were having the early versions of this conversation about this movie. That was really the point that I thought the whole movie was about. I didn't hadn't seen it yet. I didn't get all the subtext from it. But I wanna know, after we've all seen it, what scene or character element of this story stood out to you the most, whether it was metaphorical or whether it was very literal, but Leah, what was the element that jumped out to you most impactfully? Yeah. Besides the spray of blood in the third act. Well I think it's interesting that that guy's name is Harvey. I don't think I really thought about that until now. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Just I don't think that was accidental. I don't think that was accidental at all. But I didn't think about it till the second. I was gonna say I didn't catch that till right now, Leah. Thank you. Yeah. But I I wanna say his character honestly is probably the one that affected me. So when we had our conversation about Carrie, I was like, like You know, I didn't experience this bling. I have experienced extreme feelings about body image and not necessarily aging, but a whole lot of body issues, you know, going from being a size two to a size twelve and all that comes with that. And I think that it when his character was on the screen, it just like affected me more than even the body horror. Cause I just felt like He was so you're right. He was so good at being bad. But then I realized he really is just being probably exactly what it's like to live in that world. Like because we get it and we're not even on TV. And imagine what it's like to be someone like Demi Moore in that you know, even Demi Moore in her life right now, like as Demi Moore, like sheep the thing that killed me at the end. was when she had her picture, she drugged this picture and she looks great. That's and it's like but she can't see it. And for me that was sh her not being able to see how gorgeous she is, was, is, whatever. And also his just tearing her down again, just just chipping away. We work really hard for our peace, I think what women do when it comes to our bodies. And to have someone really like pick at that is it broke me. And so his hi he's his character's probably the one that that hurt me in that way. Makes total sense. I yeah. Rebecca, we we started this kind of like journey to getting to this movie. And you we've gotta you know we've gotta mention like also your like real life connection that you eventually had with this movie. but what was kind of the coolest element of watching the movie before you got to meet a piece of Like I just can't get over how this circle. Yeah. Rebecca met Margaret Qually. I did. I met Margaret Quali. That's cool. On the streets of Brooklyn. So cool. with her dog. She was on the way to a fitting. Fun fact, my daughter is very much a doppelganger of Margaret Qually, so it was a really weird thing where my daughter said hi to this person as we're like walking down the street and was like, Who does she know? in Brooklyn. Like that's weird. And I turn around and she's looking, she's like talking to her and I was like, my God. She my daughter does very much look similar to Margaret Quali. Like they have very similar facial features and stuff. So it was like a wild thing to see. Madeline said, I just saw somebody who looked like me and realized it was Margaret Quali. And I was like, that's That's a nice problem to have. Right. Same same. Like Yeah. Yeah. So and we had already seen the movie by then, so it was really cool to, you know, tell her how I've seen the substance and also I've seen Happy Gilmore too, because she's also in that movie. Very different character in that movie though. Different qualities. Very different. One would hope. Yeah. But as I'm think okay, so a couple of things. Like Dennis Quaid Quaid was not originally supposed to be in the movie, it was Ray Leota, and I don't know that Ray Leota would have done the same job that Dennis Quaid did. He passed away. Unfortunately. But I think we got I mean, honestly, I think it worked out in a way where we got a performance that we wouldn't have maybe seen quite the same. And Dennis Quaid actually ate that food. He was eating he ate like four to five pounds of I think it it says shrimp, but those look like crawfish to me and I did not on that. And the sound person was actually asked to dial back on the like disgusting sound that it is making. And they refuse to do that. So I love how the movie still was produced to this level of like disgust. I mean, it is gross when in that spot. And so I just wanted to point that out because it is just such a poignant scene where you're seeing like close up and then he does go talk to that guy. And I'm like, he still has butter on his hands and like I couldn't get over that. Like he's just gross. I wanted to talk to an old guy. Yeah. He told her she's too old. And then he goes and puts his arm around some Yeah. I can't. But there were two scenes for me actually that stood out a lot. So number one is the the hallway. When she walks out right after she's done shooting in the hallway, it has all her pictures. And you see this is like years and years and years of her having done this show. And then when Sue shows up, now you have one picture because it's just the beginning and the the hallway is empty, right? And there's a couple scenes in that hallway. So I think that the director does a really good job of making use of the space that's like this in between liminal thing. so a lot can happen there. But the other one that really hit me on the rewatch today was when Sue takes more time the first time. Yeah. And her the Elizabeth Sparkle comes, you know, she comes back. It's her turn, but it's a day late and her finger is like an old, like it's like decayed. And she goes to the bathroom and she tries to scrub it off. And it just hit me that like A little vulnerability on my part. The number of times when I've gone into a mirror and I'm like, I don't remember that wrinkle. God, I don't remember. Wow. that's new. And like how I wish I could just scrub it off. Like that's certainly a feeling I think that women can resonate with. but she has like no recourse to that. And it happens so much faster than it would have if she had just let nature take its course. Yeah. And so that that scene really got me today. Christy, what about you? Because you you loved it so much. Can you pick one? Just one. So I have to say, I I I truly I never want to watch this movie again. But I this is a me problem. The movie is incredibly well done. The cinematography is incredible. I looked up some of the information about the director and was really impressed. So, like, you know, that it's not a commentary on the actual film, that I hated it with my whole self. But one thing that really I remember thinking because it was I can't remember if it was the first time that Sue had taken more time and it was the finger, or if it was the second time and like more was happening. But I remember thinking, here, yeah. I wrote in my notes, girl, just end this, thinking like to me, like you there is an option to end it. You should just end it. Like, why are you keeping doing this to yourself? And and I thought that, and then almost immediately I was like, no, you don't though. Like I I've had body image issues for most of my life and have gone through lots of different periods of like various attempts at like either trying to become something, you know, I was I was a ballet dancer for a long time. So like there's just a lot of stuff that goes on with that. And I was like, I I mean, this is what we do. This is who we are like we don't. We do we do all sorts of things, like taking weird, non-approved FDA weight loss pills or like having a bucket of almonds at my work desk so that if I got hungry, I would just eat almonds or whatever. Like all these things that we do, they're miserable and aren't good for us. And we keep doing them. And so it was like it was this very instant realization of like, I can see how it's damaging her and it feels extreme. But that's because I'm not the one doing it. Yeah. You know, and and so it was a very kind of so my yeah, so my notes said it just go yes, I I said, girl, just end this. And then I said, the way this is actually so realistic. And then she immediately just eviscerated that turkey. And that was my next note. So Christy has brought up my least favorite part of this movie. So I'm won't lie, I think I I think I texted Rebecca this early on in me watching the movie. no, I texted our little like planning group chat this. I was like, wow, Demi Moore kind of just goes for it, doesn't leave much to the imagination. And then I was like, Margaret Qually doesn't leave even less to the imagination. And the lizard-brained guy in me was like, this movie might be pretty cool. Then I got to the Thanksgiving preparation and Demi Moore goes so whole hog on that scene that I'm like, I'm so uncomfortable. Like sh like it is the it is one of the grossest scenes of any movie I've ever seen. And she's just making a meal like to enjoy. And go she get she gets up in there though. Gosh. Like I can only imagine what that day on set was like. Like but you know everybody was saying the hell out of her way is what I'll say. Like the the movie concludes with an amalgamated like two women sharing one body, blood spattering spre and that was not the grossest part of the movie to me. It was Demi more prepping a turkey and basting it with her hand. Like it was it was just it was unsettling to watch. Also, can we agree that we don't need to see a close up of someone injecting something? Yeah. Just as like a Absolutely never again. Like a roll. Like just virtual handshake, everybody. It was came out of her belly button though. When she pulled that turkey leg out of her belly button. Yep. my gosh. Well so I guess that brings me to the next part of our discussion. The visceral nature of body aura. And why like especially when like I think like I recently just watched and reviewed with our friend Sari Martin Concepcion. She and I discussed the fly. Now in that movie, a very studly Jeff Goldblum becomes a fly creature. And that movie was like that's gross. Like he pulls his teeth out, he pulls his fingernails out. Like it's gross. I'd still are you saying that you have at least like you would contemplate like if 80s Jeff Goldblum was standing right there, you'd be like No, I don't know what to do. I mean, I feel like I've been very I feel very clear. My wife would know what to do. I feel that way with twenty twenty five Chaos Jeff Goldblum. So his chaos field that he's doing right now. Still on board. If he can stutter talk to me, I'm here. I was but when I'm watching Match. I'll tell you all about it. Yeah, Leah kind of goes she goes hard at that at that one part. With but with that movie, I was like, this is gross. But I think and again, lizard brained guy mentality, I was like, Jimmy Moore is gorgeous. Margaret Qually is gorgeous. And to see the extent that they committed to this is exceptional. Like just on that alone. Be two actresses who are known for being beautiful. And they could not have put themselves in a more aesthetically unlikable position. So, like the visceral nature of body horror in this, and and maybe Christy we'll just we'll just get this out of the way. What about body horror, especially in this film? Like just absolutely was a gut punch for you. Yeah, it was weird because I don't know if I've ever really watched body horror before, if I'm being honest. Like I mean yeah again, already know I'm not big into but like gore is not usually the thing that bothers me. Like I've seen Ready or Not and the sequel and I enjoyed them. Like those are gory movies. So I I wasn't totally prepared for the way that the body horror made me want to leave my own body and Cease existence. Cease exist. Wow. It was so gross. I need you for the podcast. I watched so much of it. I was sitting here like like my god. Yeah. But it's also like, you know, the ways that our bodies are just our bodies are kind of gross. Bodies are just kind of gross. And like it wasn't even Like it was weird. It was it was a weird men's bodies are men's bodies are gross. But like it was I mean, like the shrimp scene, it's like eating is kind of gross. Like if you think about any of these things, they're all fairly normal things. Not all of them, but like these are just aspects of bodies we're all gonna decay and our bodies are gonna keep getting grosser, you know. But like that's part of life, but I'm having a hard time. It like, I don't know, it was like it was the reality of what I was watching and disgustingness. And then the like anyway, I can't even make sense about it. It was just As someone who enjoys body horror, this was like my favorite horror movie of all time is John Carpenter's the Thing. And that is like a gross movie. I enjoyed the fly. Like And this movie was the one where I was like, hey, I this is not a pleasant interaction with body horror. Leah, I what what did you think about the use of body horror as a mechanism of storytelling in this and like Yeah? Is it just visceral because it's two it's two women? Like am I just like is it that simplistic for me? I mean, that might be some reflection. I I agree. I that's why I that's why I have a multitude of counselors. I told you when we first started talking to one another, the only movie I've ever turned off is House of a Thousand Corpses because it was so and it would border on I mean it's gore but it's also like it is body horror as well. Like it's it's mutilation. I can tell you exact the exact point that made me turn it off and it was definitely related to bodies. And do I think it was necessary, like for this film? I do. Was it gratuitous? I mean I think the I think it was at moments. Was it a female director or a male director? I don't know. it was a woman. Female. Okay. And that makes me feel a little better about it because that they felt like it was necessary and I it shouldn't make me feel better, but I'm gonna state my own bias and say that does make me feel better. Like there were moments that it was clear that they were trying to make you feel something from the body stuff. Like I was just joking about the injections, but it's like we didn't need to see it going directly into a vein. We know what that's like, you know. But I do think that she was trying to make you feel I think that was the whole thing is like I think she wanted to intellectually make you feel like this is what it's like being a woman. And then I think she wanted you to, as you said, Ryan, viscerally feel yeah. Like this is what we do. Like These like the whole trend, the like the GLP one and all of it, like we're just you're right, we're just injecting ourselves with stuff that and and I've even I've done I've looked through that and been like, it's not FDA or remember when we went nuts about COVID vaccines? It was like, it's not FDA approved. Well, but if we're gonna lose weight, put it in there. Yeah. There's one of those who shed pounds. I don't care who approves it. No one can't. Right. Like the we're all gonna get What was it? Like whatever the anti-voxers were saying. But those same anti-voxers, I guarantee you, if they're like, I can lose 10 pounds about what they'll stick that junk in their arm. And I think and like I'm putting myself in that category. So I want that to be known is that I have that same mental health issue. So when Chrissy was talking about the fact that she could end it, when she said that she wasn't gonna end it. I have never felt more like I understood a character's decision that didn't seem to make sense. Like I was like, Of course she wouldn't. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Speaking of G O P Ones, Leah, like this movie was released before that was a like a as that was becoming a widely acceptable practice for people who did struggle with weight issues and thought like and and again, I I do not know the science behind it or anything like that, but But the common p the the social mentality of it is like, it's like a miracle drug that makes you not as fat. Mm-hmm. Like let's see, you can see other people about that. I mean, look at the people that they put on. They put, you know, Charles Barclay and Terena or Williams and and then Rebel Rebel Wilson or whatever. Right, and then Ducky. idealize this version where I remember I was talking to Stuart. I was like, gosh, I should do this. I should get and he is like, you know that you're just gonna lose your boobs. Like, why would you want to do but there is a and that's a man you talked about a mantra. He was like, they're just you're just gonna lose that. And I love that was his worry. Stuart's first impression no more boobs. I can't get behind this idea. Right. And but I was like, but We and I go to the doctor and he's like, You're fine, like you're fine. But in my head, I am disgusting. I am that creature at the end of that movie. And what is it in our brains that make us feel like that? And there is no I look at pictures sometimes and I'm like, I will like purposely not even keep them on my phone because I think I look hideous. And like I I'm sorry, but I'm gonna go go ahead and say objectively, none of us are hideous. Like none of us in this not at all. But like there's just something in our heads and man, if we could that's if we could get a GLP one that would turn that off, I would take that in a second. Heck yeah. Yeah. That could be like a well was it the when COVID was happening, it was the crowd the crowd gosh, what's the term? The immunity to that. yeah. immunity. I was like, what immunity? I was trying to help you. I stumbled over That was the teacher of me. I was like, wait. That was the just keep throwing out terms to the stammering guy in me. Yeah. Rebecca, the use of body horror in this, how did you connect with it? Which parts like I I love the comparison to GLP ones being that like miracle cure kind of way that Demi Moore's character relates with the serum. But did you have a a way that The body horror hit you, especially. Yeah. Anything related to body ever is really hard for me to experience. So like I loved this movie, but my husband and I joke a lot about I have like a physical empathy that is very much a disservice if I'm trying to watch medical shows, body horror. Like I just like I can like feel it. It I can't feel the pain of it, but I can feel the like I don't even know how to describe it. Stuart is exactly the same. It's like an empathy. Whatever that is. It's a thing, though. It's weird and it's just like like I just ugh. I can't. So the parts that were really hard for me were like the parts where, you know, they they get very clear instructions. She does at the beginning. She has very clear instructions that this is seven days for you and seven days for them. You are one. And that's like, you know, this big thing of you are one. She writes it on the calendar, and Sue decides that it doesn't matter that. They are one. And take so advantage of her, like it takes such a toll on the older, like the original. You are the matrix, the one that this is coming from. It takes such a toll on her. And I think that that's the part for me that was like the hardest is like every time she is taking the spinal fluid from this open wound. I that was the most disgusting for me. And it is, I think, such a good use of that because it is like this is literally taking the life force of this body. And everything that we do that we think is making this big difference, we actually don't know what it's doing to us. Like to your point, Leah, of like GLP ones, we really don't know. There is no good study on this. And I do think it's interesting with Demi Moore specifically, because even to this day, if you look at pictures of her right now, she's still very Like when she went to the awards shows for this movie, very underweight, very, very skinny. a friend of mine was a gala in LA recently, and I guess Demi Moore was one of the people in attendance, and she was like, She is so tiny. Like, how does she even exist right now? Right. And I just think like the point didn't seem to get across, maybe all the way. And I think that's true across Hollywood. I don't mean to call out just Demi Moore, it just seems like that's kind of prevalent in general. But I also want to say with Demi Moore is that we're not this is not the first time she's taken on a significantly physical role in a movie. Like G.I. Jane was a tremendously physical investment for her. And so I think that it's really like important to her actually as an artist and as somebody in this field to participate in things that are very challenging in that way. I mean, even with her, like when she was pregnant and was on the cover of People magazine, I think. I think this has always been really important to her. And so I I'm not surprised that she was in this movie at all. But so the you know, with the like real life her being the actress in this movie, like that's something I thought about while I was watching this. But then also just like the toll that you watch this taking throughout the movie. And then ultimately the way it ends up with them both in this monstrous form is like totally intense. But I think it's more the like needle and the that was just like made me want to not I wanted to quit. I wanted to quit watching on those parts. Yeah. The teeth falling out too. the teeth. When Margaret Qually's just pulling them out. Like Yeah. I didn't watch I was like, do you need to pull them out? Just let them fall. Yeah. Yeah. They just fall out. Right now. Let them go. If they're gonna go, let go. Rebecca, something you you said right there just really connected with when when I watched The Exorcist for the first time. So the Exorcist for me, the most the scariest part. Is when Reagan is getting her medical test done. Like she's not possessed by Pazuzu yet. And that scene is like the the end of that movie is you know iconic. you know, we recently talked about Carrie and how if you've never seen Carrie, you know what the last scene is. If you've never seen The Exorcist, you know what the last scene is. It's, you know, Max von Sido, you saying the power of Christ compels you, and you know, then he's like, your mom sucks cocks in hell. Like, all we know that. But I can assure you just the way that you said it so nonchalantly. I saw I saw I I it's surprising in the movie, by the In fairness, she does say that. Yep. She does. I saw a shirt that says your mom sews socks in hell, and I really wanted to buy it. Because I knew the right people would understand that. But the medical test they run on Reagan is so much more impactful, which to Rebecca's point, like The the sticking the needle into Demi Moore's spine, like that was visceral because I know that is a procedure that a person that I've met, friends with, family with, can go through today. I know they probably won't turn into an amalgamated she monster, but that can happen. And so I think the reality of that, like that is a real form of body war that can actually happen and Well, I wonder if there's some connection to to you. To your point, Ryan, about like epidurals 'cause she gives birth to this thing and like 'cause it I don't know. I know I'm not a have not made children of my own. So I don't know what that's like. But it does I mean, 'cause it comes from her 'cause I think I even told Ryan I said you were in the it was the group chat 'cause I said Demi Moore just gave birth out of her back or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it felt a little like that in a way. Yeah. Talk about back labor. man. I I mean, well I wonder too if there isn't this feeling of like, you know, you have such and and Rebecca you can talk to this because you have a daughter, is is there some sort of envy that comes at it like not in a bad way, but just like this person gets I mean, you just as we were talking about, took your your daughter to New York and living this life and is like there any kind of like 'cause it feels like that's what's happening with me more and and this baby. Basically quote that she's Yeah, I think there's like I mean, I certainly am so proud of my daughter. Of course. And there are definitely parts where I'm like, do I I ask myself, do I envy this? Is this like would I have liked to have had this? Yeah. Did I have the kind of childhood and parenting that would have created environ an environment where this could have happened? No. And so then I can just kind of take pride in the fact that like. No, I actually created an environment where this was possible. And I know that that's unique, at least for my family system. and I mean beyond like my own, just my immediate family, like both sides of my family, like this is not a normal thing. So we're outside of the the norm there. But I think that that does often happen. And it's something that I and I I love my mom. And if she listens to this, I hope she can take this with. the spirit in which I say it. I think that there definitely can be that feeling of I wish that I had done the things my daughter does because I know that I have done things that my mom never like she dreamt of but never could do. And she's told me that and I know that it makes her sad. Now I don't look at my daughter and get sad. And I think that's the difference. Right. You can I look at her and I feel proud. And think, like Because we have the power of hindsight where we're just like, if we could go back, we would and here's this person who's getting to start it all again. I think in some ways it's not the movie itself is not just about like body issues, but also about how like mothers do sacrifice in order to have children, right? It's a heart on your body. It's it there's oftentimes like very serious damage done. And then there's another life that gets to live outside of you that continues to take, right? Like there's there's ways that even up after they're born, they're still taking from you. And the way that that's often portrayed is is beautiful because it it can be, but can also be very ugly and gross. But also, again, I think it's like we were talking about when we were talking about Carrie, there's a way that the power gets perverted. And this relationship also does that where it's like instead of it being a beautiful like mother birthing a daughter who's gonna like continue and like live past it's like monsters and like killing each other and you know it's it's it's the worst kind of mother daughter relationship instead of one that's good and positive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just thinking about what what Christy was just saying, I think right now in a very pivotal point in the relationship with my daughter, who is she is 19 years old. She has just moved to New York City, she is starting this new life and is very much yeah. She is best friends with Margaret Quali. One of best friends with Margaret Quali. We wish that were true. She is just such a cool person. Like I think that's one thing that I think about her is I I watch her in these situations with her friends or like get to hear from her, hearing about her classes, how she's handled things. And I think, wow, you are just so cool. And you are just so much more put together than I was at that age. Or like, but part of that is, and I am gonna toot my horn a little bit because I it worked it took a lot of effort to get from a place where I was maybe more like Carrie's mom in some ways, not as bad, but like you know, I'm gonna kind of spiritually bypass everything you're talking about, and we're just gonna be on this religious road. I went from that when she was a young child to this, like, you're a human being, and I'm here to help you like build this life that you are dreaming about, not that I have dreamt for you, but that you want. And there is a balance. So this just brings me back to this, like, you get seven days and she gets seven days, but you are one. And it is like this. relationship that needs to be built on balance where I'm still a person. And so there are times when she needs from me that I am like, I don't know if I have that to give. And if I do, it's going to take more than maybe is right or reasonable. And so figuring out that balance now that she's an adult is a new chapter for us. It's a new adventure because it is like definitely different. But I think that's a beautiful thing that I hadn't considered with this movie, Christy. And so I just wanna thank you for that because I think that there's something really powerful about that too. The ways that we can overgive of ourselves, even with our daughters or even with people that are really, really close to us, and realizing that that takes sometimes too much from us too. And we gotta know. And I just really wanna point out too, are we just really acting like this wound on her back was just like no big deal that she just like got sewed up and it was like Just moving on with those slides. Like that was watching watching that happen. It was so bad. Like I kept also being like, the instructions were so minimal. If I had received this package, I would be like, What do you mean? What am I supposed to do with these things? Like, yeah, this is not enough information. And she just like knew what to do. Just she sewed her up. I was like, Where did it say to sew her up? Like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did we ever get any indication of who that company was or was it just like No. I mean it's And isn't that so interesting? They were so willing. Like it's when she put that green stuff on, I was just like, This is I I keep bringing up the GLP ones 'cause have friends who have done it and it just comes in the mail from like a random pharmacy in like Las Vegas and it's just a shot and it's like you they just you just Put it right in and it's like whoa, like that's a lot of trust and like that could just be like bleach. Like Rape. Right. Like, I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy like two hours. Like looking both ways to cross the street and like we have a very keen sense of preservation. But isn't it amazing when it comes to our self image that we are willing to just it don't matter. From Las Vegas. And you know, we they're prime okay. Might as well be injecting a gas station hot dog. Like this is slightly different, but it's I mean it's only slightly different, is that my one of my like insecurities is that my hair is thin and it wouldn't grow very well. And so I had extensions for a while, but then I I got this, it's a I can't remember what it's called, but it's a prescription hair pill that essentially is like prescription rogue. That I have taken for couple of years now to and it's like again, it is a pill that just comes in the mail to me and I take it and I'm like, Okay, I don't even know what the side effects are if I'm being very honest. So, like, here's the thing, again, when I was like watching this and I was judging her, and then I was like, You do this too. Like, this is not like stop judging her because you are doing this also. Absolutely. How often Have I like have have any of us heard like somebody that's like I only follow the research and science, like the bull shit you do. You wouldn't well and they might, but there's a limit. Right. Or let it be known. I I felt insecure about my teeth. I ordered a freaking toothpaste off of Instagram because I was like my teeth need to be whiter. Look at my teeth. They're white. They're so white. They're so white. Well guess what? But I'm crazy. So I was like, they need to be whiter. Cause I hang out with Christy and her porcelain veneers all the time. I know that's you're not you're not you're not in the problem. No, but they are. This is they are. I need everybody. I'll see pictures of me drinking red wine, I'll have the red wine too, and I'm like, I need blah blah. And so I go in there. Y'all, I have no idea. It's Instagram. Who where is this toothpaste coming from? I took it to my dentist. She goes. You know that they don't even make this in the US. Like this is from somewhere else. She goes, She goes, just use sensodyne. Your teeth are wide enough. And I was like, and this is not me plugging a sensodyne, but that is what she said. And I was just like, Wow, I just did that. Like I just did this thing where I'm like, I saw this woman with great teeth, and I was like, I have to Like it yeah. Ahs, I think the thing with this, to both of your points and all of your points, is that we live in a culture where like the selling of how like it's become rampant. Like where and we don't even care where it's coming from. If we can look like that person in the advert and they sell it well enough, we'll be like, and I'm a smart person and I was just like I bought some weird ass I didn't even check where it was from. I love I care that Leah just said, like, I'm like a smart person. There's I mean, I hang out with a lot of guys and there's so many like I'm there's that kind of barrage of like I'm too dumb to fall for that. It's like I guarantee you're not. Guarantee you're not. Like it's so like it's it's just funny to to hear that like of some of the like most intelligent like people I know still being like, No, I like for the chance. At looking better, having a healthier this, having a smaller that, like having a bigger that, let's be perfectly honest. Like that is like I will I will risk myself in the direction of that and not have a hundred percent surety, but the glimmer of promise is enough. Like there's something so revelatory about that. And let's be real, her life, Demi Moore's life, was fine. Yeah. Like keeping in mind, she wasn't she was she's still an icon. She was an icon, she's got a star. Did you see that apartment? Like she could have just retired. She could have just She's nineties drug dealer with that apartment. Hell yeah. Yeah, but she can't And Fred. I do want to talk about Fred for a second. my god. Fred no Fred was the guy who asked. Tenth grade home grow yes. And he was just so sweet. And God. He said she was the most beautiful my god, Rebecca, you just took the heart out of my soul. Thank you, Chris. I forgot about Fred. He was just like I think what that just reminds me what I wrote down about him was like they do exist. You know, it's like not often and they're not everywhere and they're not the guys that are ever in power or ever in control of anything, but they're there. They are real. I'm I'm married to one and I just think like God, we will kill ourselves to be what every guy wants, but like he doesn't want me to be any different than who exactly I am. And I Fred, the same he looked at her. You're still the most beautiful woman in the world. It wasn't easy as like in homeroom or something. Yeah, like he was talking like high school. Like it was so cute. Fred Fred's teeth were s were not great, and I didn't notice that. And I hate that I noticed that. And Leah was like, I can interest you in some like Colombian toothpaste. I have a toothpaste you can have. Yes. This is just primer from Home Depot. Maybe. She goes, she goes, You should have used that. I was like, okay. One thing I love about Fred is like he is so earnest and he is honest. Like he he believes she is the most beautiful woman that's ever existed. Yep. And when she gets ready, when to me more like in her seventies, like she lets down the facade and she's like, you know what? I'm gonna go. Like she's like so famous and so popular, she's like, I don't even know if like I really should go. But like, am I am I out of his league? And it's like she feels like she's not out of anybody's league at this point. And then the scene where she goes back and forth. Back and forth. Back and forth. When they showed that clock and the clock was ticking down, and I was like, Don't do this to Fred, please. I know. I was so so we all knew that it we all knew that it was gonna happen, but that was gut wrenching. Like because it's like d like if you'd have showed up in a t shirt and sweatpants on a laundry day, he would have still thought you were the most beautiful person in the world. Yeah. And like there there are times where again, like I I've said this before, you know, all three of the ladies on this panel have met my wife and we have had that exact conversation. And I have had to like just like do the like console consoling of like, by the way, you're my best friend and like we could just like flip slops shorts and like a baggy t shirt and I would still go with you anywhere. And like I mean I wal I'll I walk out there and that man thinks the sun shines out of my butt and I I am an asshole ninety eight percent of the time. I do like to doesn't matter. We have the same relationship. Yeah. Well but it doesn't matter because I look in the mirror and I'm like, I actually here's the thing and this is gonna be really sad to say and sorry, Christy, I got you off but is I don't care what he thinks. And that's I think that's the core of it. Like I think he care he I think he loves me. I think he thinks I'm attractive. But his opinion doesn't matter because the only opinion that matters is maybe social media and my brain. I think he also he is too like you have this kind of well, of course he loves me. His love is so secure. This is I like tell her that they're gross because it's it's very annoying to hang out with them because when she's not looking at him. And he looks at her, it's the hard eye emoji. And it's like my God, we talk about that too. Yes. I'm like my God, Sure, just stop. Like But like I mean, you don't look at me like that, rude. The security that you have s is not like it's it's there so hard that that yeah, you it's like your parents, like they have to love you. You have help they have to love you. You're my mom, you have to love me. You're my dad, you have to tell me I look nice. Like Those kinds of things are, you know, th so you lose that being real validation. A hundred. And you don't and then you're not getting it from other places that don't feel secure or you think you're not because you're looking for it in weird ways or something or like you just let your brain run after that shit. You know, and yeah. So Christy's But like I said, if we can figure out how to turn that off, I'd be it'd be real nice. It'd be so nice. Yeah. Christy, something you just said connected to very natural like the next discussion point because we talk about Fred having this genuine love of her. Right. But Harvey's opinion is the only one that matters and changes Demi Moore's entire trajectory because he gets rid of her. And like Sa basically says like it says the thing of like, we're basically putting you out to pasture, like, you know, it's been is it's been nice, you know, you've had a good run, you know, old cow, but you know, we're gonna we're gonna go with a new model. That mentality of moving kind of topics in a way, but like the institutionalized male gaze and the way that institution is set up to yes, elevate her. Like she's on billboards, she's on the posters. Like Rebecca said, the hallway is littered with, you know, these massive, you know, posters of her and her greatness. But once her greatness is not profitable anymore, or perceived to be profitable, because there's other people in this movie that love her. They still love her. They will love her no matter what. Once her profitability seems to dip, Harvey gets rid of her. And Leah, I know you messaged our institu our Instagram. group chat and the theme of institutions treating women as disposable commodities, it's everywhere. But like where are you seeing it the most prevalently and powerfully right now? Yeah. I mean I think that what what we're what we're seeing is that, you know, especially in relation to, I will say, I mean, in my world is academia, and you can see it in academia. I mean it's very The women are the helpers. They are the ones who will say yes to anything. They are the ones to feel as though they are they should be blessed to have this job. And I it is them the men who oftentimes get to profit off of that and who don't have to try so hard. And that I think that's what we see with with Harvey, which now I'll never forget his name, is that he he's perpetually Pretty girls smile, right? Pretty girls smile is what he tells tells her at the end. And I think that is something we hear often in a variety of different ways as as women in in in different professions is this idea that, you know, smile, don't make a lot of noise. If something bad happens to you, don't don't make too big of a thing about it. And stay in line. And and we'll give you a little little little corner of importance. until you're not profitable anymore and then and then you go. And that could sound like a feminist rant, but we see it often and much. I mean and then meanwhile, they will also not only do that, but they'll pit you against. I mean, that's the thing that kills me too, is Harvey pits Sue against what's her name? Elizabeth. Yeah, yeah. He he pits, I mean, in not an intentional way, but because of the way that he is as a terrible human, he pits them against each other to the point where they become the Problem. Those two are the problem. But it's like, that's not the problem. Christy's not my problem. Like, Rebecca's not my problem. Like, that's that is what the narrative that has been constructed is that we are each other's problems when actually they're giving us a tiny, tiny sliver to make us feel as though we're lucky. Cause she you talk about Jamie Moore not being profitable. Was she not? I mean, we don't know that. Actually. It's the perception that she's not properly. It's the perception that he has of her as being old that she's not which by the way, she's not, I should say. She looks God. If I look like that, I'm fifty. And she was sixty two when she filmed that in real life. I mean if I Right. She was like she's gorgeous. She's doing more. And she's been in these movies all and I think that's part of the message too that's coming across. She's been in these movies where she has been it's about her looks. Even with G. I. Jane, it was the anti my God, she shaved her head. Right. She's like hot for a girl with a buzz cut. Like it's like hot with a girl who shaved her head. Yeah. Like she's been she knows what it's like to be used as a commodity and this idea that yeah, she basically at the end they were like, Well, you're not you're done. Like you're done. And it's like She's Demi Moore. What do you mean? She's just done. Leah, that's so good because I just I just kept thinking like she, for lack of a better term, like a lesser actress would have not put herself in this situation. Mm-mm. Right. Because like for the the meta of it, the out of movie, like Demi Moore is essentially doing a referendum on her whole career. Yep. In a movie. I think I think this is a testament to her whole Career. You're right. An actress that was a more insecure actress, like with their body of work and with their body literally, would have just like, I'm gonna pass on that actually, because I'm still trying, like I, you know, I won't name a certain actress here, but I am clearly thinking of one. Like I'm this age, but I'm still gonna be getting parts for me being this age and pretending like, you know, I'm not going to act. I'm not going to evolve as an actress and take on more challenging roles in a different stage of life. I'm going to keep pretending like I'm like in my thirties and I'm, you know, red carpet ready at all times. It's like, girl, like this this was a brave move for Demi Moore to do. And I applaud her just on the merits of taking the role. Regardless of how she performed, she should have won the Oscar that day. I agree. And I think too, you see these actresses and they'll be like, they clearly got a face. Like, what the hell else were they supposed to do? Yeah. Right. They have to say profit. I mean, and I don't And we would all have done the same thing if we were all in their positions. Yeah. Absolutely. Hundred percent. Like imagine like all of our jobs are like different jobs, but like imagine if your job was to be in front of people all the time. Yeah. Yep. And that way of course she would have done the same thing because you want that longevity to con you know to keep going and and that's what kills me. You know the first thing I thought when she came out and she I was like her hair is so pretty and it's like all grey and crazy and I'm like you know, because of course she'd been t whatever taken advantage of. But I'm like, you just didn't realize you're Demi Moore. But I think you're quite right. It couldn't have been played by anyone else but her in this season. I think that was a perfect Yeah. Well and I think maybe for Can I Can I jump in really fast? I want I want to jump in about this idea of like usefulness and productivity a little bit because I I have in the last it's hasn't been a year yet, so I will say it is still recent. I was working in a corporate job and I worked for someone that I had known for a very, very long time. And he recruited me to this job. So I was actually part of like the executive leadership. Team for this global company thinking I have been brought in because I am a smart cookie. Like I know what I'm talking about. I know how to run a global multi-site international service business for industrial equipment. I know how to do that. So I think that he has brought me in because I know how to do that. And over time it became very apparent after being called his work wife, after being asked to set up several meetings, to order lunches, some Very weird things, talking about getting a promotion and then saying, Well, if you get a promotion, then this other woman is gonna want one. Meanwhile, my male colleague is on board to get a promotion. And having to face these very like real conundrums of like what we were talking about earlier, my husband thinks that I like fun the moon. He thinks that I have done all of these incredible things, but I am working for this man who thinks that I am his work wife and I have no value at all. And I am more worried about his approval of me than I am about this person who is sharing his life with me because I cannot get his approval. Yep. And I cannot figure out what it is. And ultimately what what kind of ended the whole thing, I lost my job on December 4th of last year. And I lost my job because I wanted to remain useful. And so because I wanted to remain useful, I brought a lot of things up. And I said that what wasn't working for me. I talked about the impact versus intent of what was happening. I discussed the various ways I had been treated. I sent a very poignant email to my boss saying like I deserve better than the leadership that I've gotten. And ultimately I had been at a meeting. So it was this meeting called Conquer Southeast Asia, which I think is the funniest name for a meeting because it was really about like creating more business in Southeast Asia, but that's not what the title of it sounds like. Yeah, it's very weird. Brought to you by Louis. So we're all at dinner party. Yeah, we're we're all at dinner one night at this very nice hotel. And we'd been drinking wine and my boss and myself and my colleague end up at the elevators. It's the end of The night dinner has happened, we're all going to a room. And my boss is like, We should all we should go to a bar and we should let Rebecca decide because she has a vagina. And I in that moment was like, that is all I will ever be in all of my more than a decade of achievements in my life. That is all I will ever be to this person. And as much as I think my colleague who was standing right there really hated that that happened, he also is not somebody who was ever going to say anything. So I feel nothing about him really. but I lost my job two less than two months later for reporting that. And I just think like in Sue's position, thinking about that experience and like wanting to remain useful and wanting my knowledge and experience to mean something and finding myself in a place where it could, like, would I do the same thing? Yeah. Because getting to this point of like. I have hit the pinnacle of my career. A career that I never really wanted in the first place, but the pinnacle of my career. And it's all over. It is over because one person decided that me saying something was too much for his own insecurity. And like I still am not over it. I'm still not over it is the truth of it. And I think that that's a really tough thing. And so when watching this movie, I think that's part of what I really like. was so poignant for me, you know, and I think that was such a good point to bring up. Like we have these men, maybe these men in our lives who think that we are just so incredible, but there's still that guy out there who decided that I wasn't worth anything. Yep. And that somehow matters more? How stupid. But it is the truth. Yeah. Christy and I both have separate versions of this person. And we both know exactly who these people are. And it's like, why d why do we care? Like why do we care about that? It has it has no bearing on who we are as humans and that what we're worth. But we will fight to the ends of the earth to make them think that we are worth something. And it's like it's such a strange sh but but again, it's something that is in us and I wonder there has to be some sort of well, we know what it is. It's it's the fact that we've again, as I was saying before, we had to fight for scraps and so now we think that's what we deserve. What is that? The yeah, the perks of a wallflower we accept the love we think we deserve. Corny, but I actually think it's kind of true in a way. Phew. Rebecca, thank you so much for that vulnerability. That was I know I I I have never I have not you have not told me that story in as much detail. And I know that's not a a easy thing to communicate, but Hopefully like someone listens to that and they're like, that's like what happened to me at work last week or what happened to me at class or my relationship with this person. And they're like, so like no is an option. Like 'cause I think sometimes you hear a lot of horror stories about, you know, people going along with a thing they feel is morally reprehensible, is wrong and shouldn't happen. The situation shouldn't be going the way it's going. But they also don't feel like no is an option. Christy and I, and again, I'm not trying to bring this up because it's like a cheesy example of like an old horror movie, but Christy and I had a deeply substantive conversation about the bride. And the bride's true power is the ability to say no to the situation that's been prescribed for her. So, like knowing a woman that I respect, saying like, no, I reject the idea that you have for me. I wish we got to see more of that in a substance, but we we really don't, like up until that very end. Sorry, Christy. But I think that's that's part of the reality. Like what Rebecca did was astronomically brave, but I I want to say that it's maybe abnormal in a way. And I s and I say that in the most respectable way possible. Like it was what we typically do is we just go with the status quo. You know, we just laugh it off and we say like like yeah, this is fine. And so what we're watching with Demi Moore is we're not watching your story, we're watching the story that probably takes place ninety percent of the time, which is that, it's okay. This is fine. Like we'll just we'll just go along with it. I mean, honestly, it also brings to mind very current conversation about what's going on with Cornell. And Jane Doe. And I think part of what's happening is both it's a conversation about how women get abused, assaulted, etc., and it gets covered up to protect men, which is one of the issues. But it also I think one of the things that's happening right now is people using her initial. Attempts to protect herself, to process what had happened and and potentially even, I mean, the idea that this happened at all is horrifying. The idea that it like if if if it was me trying to process that that that was a thing that had happened to me, it is so much harder to go and say clearly these are the things that happened. And so what we're seeing is that her initial reactions are coming out in ways that obviously I think any woman who has experienced assault or has experienced these kinds of things is recognizing like yes I went through that too. but also realizing that now it's being used against her to protect them again, to say like, well, you know, you initially were like, nothing was illegal. Why are we even why would you ever need to say that nothing was illegal if nothing was illegal? Like that in itself is is saying like yes, it was it was. It's a dead giveaway that also that he knew, you know. Yeah. Yes. But also to say if you're going to use the panicked, traumatized processing language of a twenty year old to say that it is was not rape or was not as horrible then Like you just don't care about people at all. You know? And it it yeah, it's it's infuriating to watch the ways that I mean, again, like to me more's character is being killed throughout. Like this is what's happening. But she keeps no, it's okay because Sue is getting love, you know, and she's trying to justify it. And similarly, when women are being abused, when they're being assaulted, all of these situations, there is a lot of time a self-preservation that happens where they're not just saying, hey, no, this is wrong, stop. And actually, you know what? Margaret Quayley was also in another really great, it was a limited series called Made. And it starts and it was a based on a, I think, a memoir of a woman who was being abused by her. partner and how she got out. And the first thing that they talk about is the ways that we assume that we're not being abused. Like he didn't hit me, he hit the wall. Yeah. He didn't hit me, he threw a plate. Uh-huh. You know? And we can recognize it if we're being rational. But again, there's not rationality when it's happening. And so yeah, it's it's it's a very real thing. To say, yeah, Rebecca, what you did and standing up for yourself, it's rare. It was incredible. I'm so glad you did. I wish we could do that more. But we also need to recognize that sometimes we have to step in for people and say, Hey, this is this thing that's happening is wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and and we and the reason we don't is you lost your job, Rebecca. Like, you know, and yeah. And whilst I'm sure you are far better off now. There is that fear that when you you know, that when you do say something or push back against this, it's far easier to just do the status quo and to just keep going and and yeah, to just accept it because then you get to be stable because this is instability. And and so when Chris you're talking about that sort of initial statement, I'm sure she was thinking, Well, this is This is just the world we live in. Like this is this is maybe my even my fault. Maybe I did something and I participated and I was drunk or I wasn't drunk or whatever was happening and you know, blah blah blah. But I mean I think yeah. So what we're saying is kudos, kudos to you. Well, I think it's important to note like this is the wisdom of a forty-five-year-old woman versus the twenty-two-year-old who filed a claim and couldn't follow through because of what would happen to me. And I think about that 22 year old girl all the time. And how I wish that would have been different. And there is so much instability. my gosh. There is a reason. There is a reason that women don't say anything because it will ruin like we talk about well, what about his whole life? And like swear to God, I was told that the stuff the things that were said to me were locker room talk and it just needs better coaching. For fuck's sake. That is ridiculous. But I I know that that is the norm. And so my daughter and I, we were together this last weekend and I was like, you know, I just like I'm still here. And she was like, Yeah, you're not dead yet, bitch. It's like, that is right. I'm not dead yet, bitch. And so it was just right. And I'm like, my God, that is so true. So like the instability is real. And it has been like this year, I feel like it has been identity. And I think I that Elizabeth's character is like going through this, right? Like her identity is so she gets fired and she's like, Who am I? Who am I? Who am I supposed to be? I've been this person and I I resonate with that so much this year of like, who am I? Am I this person? Am I that person? I just and I finally am just like, I have no idea. I have no idea. And that is actually okay. But I also do like I do have some safety nets in place. And so for anybody who may be listening that is like, Man, I wish I could do that, but I really couldn't because I need this job or whatever. That is understandable. That is a place literally the first thing I thought when she sat at her desk after he had that shrimp meeting with her. Yeah. Is I I thought she was gonna look at Bills and I was like, God, I hope she has like a four one K. I literally had that in my head. I was like, I hope she has savings. Like and because that was what I was that was what I was most concerned about. I just was like, I hope she has a financial yeah stability there and but isn't that interesting because yeah that is it and that's what can keep you in a really bad situation a really long time. Which we can get into so many reasons how those systems are so messed up. Right. Welcome to Beer Camp where Jorg and I will be talking about the bad theology of economics. Nice. It's gonna be a barn burner. I can't wait. And it's Kansas so maybe literally. It could be. So I I I just wanna like I I just wanna bring us back around. I feel like we have we have only scratched the surface on the substance, which again I said at the beginning this conversation, it's a modern classic. And but I do want to go around just like maybe quick quick hit, like last impression of the substance. And then like I said at the end of our carry conversations, there are many other follow-ups you can follow up with some of the themes Rebecca brought up in the episodes we've done on the Babaduok and Ready or Not. Christy and I have discussed The Bride at Frankenstein, which again, talk about a movie we only scratch to the surface on, and and a a character that is deeply meaningful to both of us. Christy and and Leah have seen my my Frankenschrine. like the bride is everywhere. And Leah and I have had so many conversations. I've forgotten the ones that, you know, Alien, we both love Ripley, you know, Jurassic Park, we both love Laura Dern, because how can you not? You know, so if you want to follow up with different conversations about With these amazing ladies talking about other amazing ladies, that is right in the episode description, check it out. I just want to say my last impression and then get out of the way. My last impression is that this movie perpetuates the impossible bar to clear for most women, and it highlights how miserably fucking low the bar is for fellow men. During high school, I was told So many different times, like well, that girl wore that. That's her fault. Like, no, no, no. You're a piece of shit. It's your fault. Like, I don't I don't care what her intention is. The way you're receiving it is incredibly predatory. And now, like, as a 35 year old, I would go back and tell that high school guy, like, quit being a fucking creep. Like, you're the worst. And someday you might have a daughter. And you'd be Well, kick his fucking ass. I'm like, okay, would you go back and kick your own ass? well, that's just guys being guys. Bullshit. That is my final impression because I've I've sung Demi Moore's praises, I've sung Margaret Qually's praises, and as weird as it feels to say, I've sung Dennis Quaid's praises. I mean he was really look, it sometimes being terrible as a I mean, that's being an actor is we hated him. Yeah. And Real viscerally. Desired emotion did come out. If you ask what my sort of feeling is, is I think that that is I think he played a really hard character. Like he had to be the worst. But the fact that I could recognize him in my own life in a multitude of different ways. I mean, he was a caricature of the worst, of course, but like Yeah, and over the top like yeah. Sure. But he's not that far off. No, no. people that I've in I've interacted with. And so I think that hit me the most. And also I think the thing that sticks with me is what Christy mentioned earlier, which is that you could stop this at any time and you didn't. And I think for me that's what this movie really says. Like even when she gets the hand, like she could have stopped it then. And now Christy can't sleep. Yeah. And she but she did it. And then even when she got the leg, remember, she was a she had the leg and she knows that the other person is taking advantage, but she still keeps on doing it. And I think to me that that hit really hard. Like what we are willing to do for some random gross guy to think that we're worth a damn. Rebecca, do you have a final thought? You have any gas left in the tank? Yeah, I just was thinking about the end and how kind of ridiculous it is, right? Like the the whole rest of the movie is so there's so many like poignant moments with the the bone in the belly button and all these things where we see her realizing how much it's taking from her and the end is just kind of ridiculous. And so I think that there is a piece where it's like, At the end, how ridiculous will I think all these things that I did to like try and meet these standards really are? And it just makes me think of the Mary Oliver quote like what will you do with your one wild and precious life? And is this really the way I want to spend it? You know? And so I think it's a really good it just such a good movie to bring about these points to think about. Right? Like there's so many ways that we could participate in that. And like I think all the time, like maybe I should have a better skincare routine and all these things and I've gotten Botox and all this stuff. And I just think, when I'm ninety, will I care? Will I really? I don't think so. And then just the other thing is like undealt with anger and rage always come out. And I think that's also what the end is showing. Like when we don't say no and we just do go along. And I've certainly had those experiences at other times in my life when it's just hurt me. It didn't do anything to anybody else. And maybe some other people do deserve to actually feel the pain of that. Not to be like revengeful, but like accountability matters. And so Yeah. And just think like, let's deal with our shit as it comes up and not wait for it to become this monster of this warring thing in us and remember when we're ninety-five, like what will we really care about? Rebecca, my I my dad once said that a pain that is not transformed is transferred. I feel like the substance is that. It is the transference of the pain that she feels. I just that you saying that reminded me of that. thing my dad's been telling me since I was twelve. Christy, it's probably the last you you have to ever talk about the substance. She's like, yes. It's gonna be amazing. And then a green lit substance too. Christy will not green light it. More substance. Take a second. I'm gonna say this both about the film and about what I'm about to do, but I the thing that I want I like take away is to like let it go. Like let the obsessions go, let, you know, like let the the thing that you think defines you doesn't have to. And you can let it go and you can find a new thing or a new definition or just like like you're saying, like be in a season of, I don't know. But like clinging to stuff that doesn't work anymore or is dead or is you know, trying to disconnect, just let it go. Because, you know, I like I would love to return to the like very fit 22 year old that I was when I was still dancing and stuff. But like also I didn't have other things, you know, and I wasn't doing other things. And like so an obsession with something that doesn't exist anymore or an obsession with being something that I'm never gonna be. Yeah. Or an obsession with a disgusting man who can't eat shrimp or crawfish or whatever without being the most like let that go. Let that man go. Let that man go. Look, I am I am single, so I'm gonna hear I'm here to tell you like get that man out of your life. Okay. Get him out, let it go. Hope that you're Weird hard eye emoji husband is on the horizon, maybe, but like he is not your steward, he is not your Andrew. Even if it's not, like he is not worth it. Find you a hard eye girlfriend. Find yeah. Or a best friend. Yeah. Find the hard eyes. Christy and I hard eye each other all the time. Yeah, are you kidding me? It's look at this dog. Or find fine penny. Mm-hmm. Hell yeah. But like, yeah, just let let it go. Yeah. That's yeah. Thank you so much. And I'm gonna let this movie go. Yeah, well, I kind of saw that one coming. Like Elsa. Is her neighbor's like, is that is Christy singing Adina Menzel at the top of her lungs right now? Something has happened and Christy's not putting up with it anymore. I I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation about the substance, something that I was looking forward to for months. And I I Don't think this conversation fell short of even my wildest aspiration for it. And if you want more of these conversations, there's links in the episode description for conversations with Rebecca, with Leah, with Christy. And yeah, I hope that you've enjoyed this. If you wanna follow along, there you can subscribe, you can like, you can leave a comment. And just remember that even if the horrors persist, so can we.