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Hello, and welcome to Clientship's Customer Experience Superheroes Podcast Series.
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In this series, we explore the superpowers, the hidden qualities needed to be a leader in today's customer experience world.
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And in this episode, we introduce you to Professor Dr.
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Phil Klaus.
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He'll be familiar to many of you, but this is an individual that I've had the pleasure of being associated with for a number of years.
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Probably the leading expert academic in the world of customer experience.
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And he's going to spend his time today talking about the importance of customer experience for the ultra-high network individual.
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So I am absolutely delighted today that we are going to be talking to Professor Dr.
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Phil Klaus.
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Welcome.
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Thank you so very much for having me, Christopher.
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And you, of course, as a friend can call me Phil without all the title.
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That's going to make it much easier.
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So thank you very much, Phil.
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Well, look, this is great.
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I'm delighted we finally got you onto our podcast.
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But um, and you and I, I've been very privileged to work with you.
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I've I've worked with your studies and I've learned from them massively as a customer experience professional.
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But obviously, our listeners, some of them, God forbid, may not know who you are.
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So would you mind just giving us a couple of minutes introduction in terms of uh your role in customer experience and the activities that you're up to?
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Yes, of course.
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Thank you so very much, Christopher, for giving me the opportunity.
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I'm of course delighted to have the opportunity to talk with you in our audience today.
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I'm believe I'm globally considered one of the leading customer experience strategists and researchers, whatever that means.
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So I always say perceptions are reality, so if people talk this way about me, it's just gonna be fine.
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Before I became an academic, I had a real job, as I often mentioned.
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So I was a senior marketing manager, and while being a senior marketing manager, I often encountered the shortcomings of all the tools, toys, and technologies we in marketing and in customer experience are so obsessed about.
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And while encountering them, I found out there's no silver bullet for these things.
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And whenever we had something offered from the likes of McKinsey, from a business school, or from whomever it is, it worked.
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But it only worked for a limited amount of time.
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And exactly this mindset led my former MBA program director to suggest that I become a researcher.
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And I thought, despite the poor payment that you receive as an academic in comparison to being a marketing professional, I thought that sounded like a very enticing proposition.
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And from this moment I never looked back.
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So we started to explore how you can measure customer experience in the most efficient and effective way.
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Because according to Peter F.
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Trucker, only what gets measured gets managed.
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And this was always my credo, and it's one thing that always reflected very well that our managerial audience, being a manager myself.
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And from there on, there was no stopping back.
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Once we know this measurement is superior to everything else, that there are some that outperform the others by 600% in terms of profitability.
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But we looked at both sides.
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So we looked at what works and what doesn't work.
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And from there on, we just uh went farther and farther, looked more into why, in some cases it works, why in some cases it doesn't work, what are the resources you need, the capabilities, how should customer experience be done, what is working?
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And we uh during this time we also busted a lot of myths.
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You know, this customer experience myth, such as the net promoter score works, uh why satisfaction doesn't work, negative words is positive word of mouse.
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Can I link customer experience to profitability and all these fascinating things?
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And then, of course, we expanded and extended it in all kinds of different segments, different industries, different countries, different continents.
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So by having the opportunity as a researcher, and I know I'm now uh longer than two minutes talking about this, but forgive me, and my enthusiasm and my passion for customer experience, by collecting all this data, we now have a very good understanding what works and what doesn't work.
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But of course, being uh a scholar and a researcher and academic, we do not often reach the managerial audience because they commonly think we tell them things that already know in a language they can hardly understand.
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But with my managerial background, this is slightly different.
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And we just recently looked into the ultra-high net worth individuals, who the uber rich, as they call it, the billionaires.
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And everybody told me right from the start that first of all, not only luxury is entirely different from all the research you did before, but the ultra-high net worth individuals are completely different from what you've researched or believe you know.
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And we said, well, we always love a challenge, so let's take a deeper look into that.
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And surprise, surprise, um the hypothesis, for the lack of a better word, that we had at the beginning, that they are not different in any way, shape, or form from uh somebody buying uh toothpaste or how to choose uh one car or one brand over the other, are entirely similar to the ultra-high net worth individuals.
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So no surprise there for us, but for the others, researching it and thinking about it and working in the industry, it was a rude wake-up call.
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But the most interesting part for us was when you think of luxury, one thing I love when you talk to luxury managers, they always tell you our job is to exceed expectations.
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So every time we meet a luxury client or a luxury company that would like to, how shall I say, take advantage of the insights that we offer, we go through a very nice small exercise.
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We say, okay, let's do the following.
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Every single one of you writes down the expectations you would have as a customer choosing your service, your product, or your experience.
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Write them down.
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And after that, we collect them and try to synthesize and summarize it, and most of the time you cannot get them on one slide.
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Right.
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So there are two, three, four, three.
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Exactly.
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So I said, okay, now we've got four people of yours, and look at these expectations.
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Do you believe you can meet these expectations just from U4?
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And everybody says, Oh, that's impossible.
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I said, okay, now how many of your is how many people is in your client base?
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And I say uh hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands.
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I said, okay, now multiply this with the number of your clients.
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Yeah.
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Ah, I believe we get your point.
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And the point is just to meet expectations.
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Yeah.
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And I always ask them, but you say you're gonna exceed expectations.
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And by telling somebody that you exceed expectations, you do what?
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You raise expectations.
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So the chances that a customer, client, patient will be dissatisfied becomes significantly larger.
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And you created that yourself.
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It's your own doing.
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Exactly.
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It's you who manage the expectations.
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And they say, yeah, but everybody in luxury does that.
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You have to exceed expectations.
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I said, um, to be quite honest, according to a research of a dear friend of mine, the only thing that you can do by doing this delight strategy is delight your company into bankruptcy.
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I do remember um hearing Ferrari, and this may be a myth, but Ferrari estimates just how many customers are going to want a car that year, and then they reduce production by 10% to help manage expectations that you possibly won't get a Ferrari this year.
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Um as opposed to you know sort of laying on extra production to to meet the greater demand.
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And I I guess that's that's the difference between um smart luxury brands and and others.
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Excellent point you've raised.
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Yeah, and in luxury they called it um aspiration.
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Mm-hmm.
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Mm-hmm.
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So let's let's let's just take a step back there.
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So um thank you so much for kind of sharing that that that history of of where you've come from and kind of I think anyone listening to that will recognise the credibility and what you say is underpinned by science, as opposed to sort of you know what you've you've read on the pages of uh popular magazines, it's actually underpinned by science, and not only that, you've undertaken it, and I know from being involved in delivering some of that uh the work you've done, um, it's incredibly powerful when it's presented to organisations, and it's also award-winning, so therefore it comes with that that marker distinction that you want.
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But um if I can just take you back to the point around ultra-high net worth, because uh working with many organizations, we we get to deal with you know the mass affluent, we get to deal with the high net worth, and we all have these labels and kind of a think we know what category they fall into.
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But could you just help us understand how you know how different the ultra high net worth is?
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I mean, are there trillions of these individuals running around the world, or or are we talking about quite an exclusive group of uh potential customers here?
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In order to answer this question, I have to get a step back.
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In luxury, we have nine different sectors, and three of the sectors are fine arts, private aviation, which means your helicopter, private check, and so on, and the yachts and super yachts.
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So three of the nine sectors or the nine markets in the luxury sector are exclusively driven by the ultra-high net worth individuals.
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So you can see three parts of a third of all luxury is based upon one segment.
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And who are these people?
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An ultra-high net worth individual is normally defined as somebody who has a minimum net worth, meaning disposable income, of 30 million US dollars.
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0.003% of our population.
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Well, and when you look at these kind of things, we thought, well, let's look at these people, you know, and find out why they do what they do.
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Because at the end of the day, being in Monaco and working with the great people in Monaco and the industry in Monaco and the key players there, we have uh a unique situation.
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And one uh Monaco is normally related to two things.
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It's Formula One, because the Grand Prix, and secondly, yachting.
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Yeah, and in particular, super yachts.
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So we're talking super yachts and mega yachts, which are defined by a yacht that's at least 30 meters long and sells for an average of 10 million.
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And uh the farther you go up, the higher the numbers would get.
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So just to give you an idea, in 2018, all the builders together sold 58 super yachts worldwide.
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So that's every provider, every boatyard, every complete industry.
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58 of them.
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58, 58.
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That was it in one year.
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Well, a good year, was it a good year?
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Uh 2019 was actually a little bit better.
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Yeah.
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Uh and 2020 won't be quite the same as now.
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But uh looking at this, despite um looking at a very small sample size, there's a lot of money in there.
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And for example, you have give or take 1200 people who could be buying a super yacht worldwide.
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1200 people.
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Okay.
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1200.
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And um, we went out and asked people if they believe we could conduct research in this industry.
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And everybody we talked to in the industry said, no, this is impossible because of privacy.
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People don't talk to, they don't even talk to us.
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And we said, well, they will talk to us for the reason that you mentioned before.
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Our master is a truce rather than the paycheck or a consultancy agreement.
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And being scientists, we probably have different methods and different rigor on how to talk to people.
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And when people, when your respondent clearly feels that you're interested in what to say, instead of interested in taking something out that they can take advantage of, the conversation is an entirely different one.
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And uh in the short period of time, in our first research, we talked to people who have or purchase 50 plus yachts.
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This was our sample, which was unheard of in the industry.
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And I was saying, how did you pull that off?
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And we said uh the regular way.
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You ask people, and once they get to know you, they recommend you to somebody else to talk to.
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It's very easy, you know, when they believe there's a value in that.
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And one of the things that clearly came out, which we were not aware of, is that we for the first time ever delivered not only for the industry, not only for business research, but for everyone involved in that segment, we mapped out the customer journey of an ultra-high network individual.
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Right.
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Because all the data and insights that were available were about uh where they come from, how old they are, how many billions they have, not why they do the things they do.
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I see.
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So it was much more what's what was the right what was there before was much more sort of demographic uh as opposed to how they engage and interact with organizations.
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Exactly.
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It was ever so often the how, when, what people are doing, rather than why people are doing what they do.
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And once we presented why people are doing what they do, we got Phil, I heard you uh wrack the bolt, you know.
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Said, yeah, forgive the pun, but I guess that's what we did.
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And we got two kinds of reaction.
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We got uh one part of the audience said, we don't believe it.
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You know, what you're presenting.
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I said, well, um uh it's not about belief.
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We are not a church, it's not a religion.
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You know, we present facts, and the facts are as follows.
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We hope that they will not apply to your particular case, but we did find no evidence that will support your claim.
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Right.
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And then you have the other part of the audience who sat there and immediately after the presentation approached us and said, I believe you got it 100% right.
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I said, in our gut, we always believed this could be the truth, but we never had any evidence, it was just a gut feeling.
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We could never pinpoint it, we have no research, we don't know how to conduct it.
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And uh as uh a dear friend told me also, he said, we build boats, we have no clue about customer experience, which is interesting, isn't it?
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Because the uninitiated looking in, the assumption is of course you must understand your customer better than anyone else.
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You've got so few products you're selling, they've got such high expectations, which we realise now are set by the industry and not by the customer themselves.
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But looking outside in, you think, well, you must be getting it right, you cannot afford to get it wrong at that level.
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But from what you're saying, they're happily dive into an engine or to to buy the the best finish possible on the on the planet Earth.
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But when it comes to are you responsive, do you resolve my issues?
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Are you managing my expectations?
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All these customer requirements are uh they're alien to them.
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I couldn't have said it better myself.
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You can write the next summary of all papers.
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No, it's exactly as you say, it's about uh managing expectations.
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And the interesting part is uh uh when uh people ask me how you would summarize, I want to have the ultimate tailor-made experience.
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Yeah.
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Because it doesn't get any more tailor-made than having a super yacht built to where everything is to your specification.
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We had some uh interviews with marvelous people who told us later on, it's so great when you walk through the boat, no matter how large it is, and you remember the moment where you chose this door knob over another, and how it is now perfectly you know, the joy of creation is quite there.
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And I mean uh and to be quite honest, um, while people might say the segment of uh a super yacht is this the same people who buy a super yacht buy a private jet, private aviation, or the private helicopters.
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However, the emotional attachment is a completely different one.
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One is transportation, the other one is the ultimate luxury in terms of there's something that you do not need.
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There's nothing more emotional than buying, having, and owning a super yacht.
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Yeah.
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And to summarize it, I say everybody we are talking about in the industry always use one saying.
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And the saying goes, there are only two days of happiness in the life of a yacht owner.
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The day he buys the yacht and the day he sells the yacht.
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That's very, very interesting.
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So the whole creation part of the yacht is a is a massive part of the experience then.
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And I'm guessing this is because it's invariably fraught with challenges, both in terms of the yacht itself, but the you know, maybe if you if you are ultra high net worth, your availability uh to coincide when the yacht is available, to coincide when the weather's great, all those factors rarely align to make it a perfect experience for you.
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So you you remember back to the previous experience as being the utopian time rather than that time we were out and we went to Corsica and it rained miserably, and I missed that business meeting, and it was a disaster of a day.
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You remember that build day, and then I guess it gets to a point where you go, What am I doing?
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and you sell it, and then and then the burden of it is is the the relief you you have is gone.
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It it is uh it's for us it was amazing to see um what a yacht owner describes be the experience of owning the yacht.
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Because um at the end of the day I compared it with uh Dante's Nine Gates of Hell.
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Okay, because this is how yacht owners describe owning a yacht, the process of getting towards it.
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Yeah.
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But then the most amazing thing is when you you should see that how their how their faces, how their eyes light up when they talk about this unique experience, these moments that they're shared with their friends, family, and beloved on on the yacht that they will never forget.
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I say these moments are it's like the MasterCard commercial, priceless.
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And it's exactly like this.
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They say, in these moments you forget everything, all the pain that comes with it.
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And let's be called Quite honest, um uh the owners of Super Yacht describing it as running a small company.
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Okay, and most of these people are entrepreneurs, yeah, you know, serial entrepreneurs, so they know how it is to run a company, but often their uh friends and family then said we wanted that to enjoy our quality time together.
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So the six weeks maximum that you probably spent on a yacht, if you're only in one location, meaning you're either in the Caribbean or you're either at the Mediterranean, you know.
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Not a lot of people use it for 12 months because the logistic to bring it from one part of the world to the other is just horrible.
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And they say, okay, so I use it for six weeks, but the other um remaining 46 weeks of the year, it's just a pain to deal with captains, um managing companies, staff, insurance, accountants, lawyers, and everything that comes with it.
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And they don't speak too highly of the entire service ecosystem.
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Right.
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As a matter of fact, um uh the the commons are never flattery and they range from um failed real estate agents to describe the brokers, the sales side of it, all the way to corruption.
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Right.
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Okay.
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So it's broad change.
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It's not flattery to say the least.
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There's a couple of things in there, Phil.
00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:53.680
One is um I think you've just in that last response given the most compelling reason I can think of as to why it's so important to really understand your customers before you embark upon anything.
00:23:54.160 --> 00:23:59.920
Too often, I think organizations will get a bit of a feedback, it could be aggregated data.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:05.839
Maybe they'd uh got the debrief from a focus group, and and and maybe they've even sat in a one viewing gallery.
00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:14.720
But but actually, well, the way you've just described it, it's kind of you know, as Dante, the way you talk about how you see their eyes light up, that's what research is really about, isn't it?
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:23.359
So you can actually feel the customer, you can understand where they are, and that allows you to get to I think that level of something I've never really thought about before.
00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:33.440
That if you're gonna own a yacht whilst everyone else is away escaping and having fun, having a holiday, you're running a business.
00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:45.519
So that moment where everything is going perfectly, it's very temporary because then three minutes later, someone taps you on the shoulder and says, Ah, really sorry, but the second chef seems to have a sickness bug.
00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:54.880
I think we're gonna need to get a new chef at the next, and then you're back into the world of managing, micromanaging, which is what you probably do as you say you're an entrepreneur, you manage anyway.
00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:01.599
So it's not escapism, it becomes another project for you rather than being the escapism you imagined it to be.
00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:15.119
So I think you don't get to that level of insight and understanding unless you really do your research properly, and when you do, it only then allows you to think, how can I help make the situation better for the customer?
00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:23.039
Because I think most people would have answered that brief to say give them a bigger, shinier boat, make them feel more loved.
00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:41.839
But actually, from what you've just said there, the solution is a lot more complicated, and actually, what you need to do is to make sure that in your yachting business you employ people who have got you know luxury management qualifications who who understand and empathize with an ultra-high net worth, not with yachts.
00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:44.079
It's about empathis with ultra-high net worth.
00:25:44.160 --> 00:26:00.000
So, thank you for sharing that because I think that's really just incredible insight, and and obviously it goes to show the difference between you know, sort of well, not doing any research, doing what you think ticks the box, and and having, as you say, the truth is your master, which means I can keep going here with my research.
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:04.559
I have no I can keep going until I find if I don't find it, I can keep going.
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:07.920
Which is a luxury in itself, you know, truth is a luxury, isn't it?
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:09.440
So uh thank you for sharing that, Phil.
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:11.279
That's that's quite incredible.
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:18.160
Because we are in Monaco and uh we we are quite happy to work and assist the people.
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:24.640
For example, uh one week ago we had a meeting uh where we present our findings to the Monaco Yacht Cluster.
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:42.160
Yep, and they uh because one thing that's uh also for the ultra-higher network individuals, especially in the super yacht context, is that you work with a lot of people, a lot of different stakeholders, great service ecosystem, and they're never managed perfectly together.
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:51.200
So at the end of our discussion, after we presented the finding, we were asked uh where we see the future of the industry heading to you have a one-stop solution.
00:26:51.440 --> 00:27:22.079
Okay, a broker house that will also build shipyards and has managing and everything together with it and provides you with the right crew, with the right captain, with the right people, and deliver it on time, or you will have somebody who builds boats who acquires others' resources and capabilities like sales, yachting, tax accountancy, and uh captain crew membership, hire the right people, human resources, in order to get one package.
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:31.279
In particular, the people who buy for the very first time often have the feeling that they are being taken for a ride, to say the least.
00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:35.680
And this is uh very uh this is something that the industry struggles with.
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:42.960
Because uh while billionaires uh we have more and more, there's less and less interest in superior.
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:43.920
Right.
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:58.559
You know, and this is something the industry clearly understands they have to get back to the experience, what people experience with us and need to not reinvent how to do it, but go back to the basics.
00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:09.279
That's a really interesting so that's the future of the the industry there, which has sort of done it to itself by not providing the set levels of experience that customers are looking for.
00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:40.960
So Philip Fine interesting, you know, it's an interesting area, and and kind of what you realise with customer experience is whilst customer experience is a horribly generic term that is so multifaceted, it's also when you look at specific sectors, the specifics in those sectors, so in the agriculture industry, the the yachting industry, they require a certain ability, a confidence, uh, and a set of kind of super um powers when it comes to kind of customer experience.
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:57.359
So if I was to try and leap into the world of luxury management um and and and high ultra high net worth, what would be your advice to customer experience professionals who are looking at that sector and thinking this is one that I want to add value to?
00:28:57.680 --> 00:28:59.119
That's a tough one.
00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:00.799
Let me put it in this way.
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:08.559
Um, we look now at over 2,000 companies, and we can clearly see that uh that there's a DNA of customer experience.
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:08.960
Yep.
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:15.359
There's a reason why all of us uh make our decision in the way we make our decision.
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:20.160
And there are some moderating and mediating effects according to the context.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:32.400
But the way we make decisions is always the same, and the way we should measure this uh the customer experience is always the same because uh I look at our measurement and uh we know it works wherever it is.
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:40.000
If you sell nuclear power plants, you know, or if you sell software out of Seattle, uh the experience that you're looking for.
00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:45.519
But the the tough one to crack is what shall I do in order to get into this business?
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:58.640
Well, we are fortunate enough to have uh in Monaco at IUM, International University of Monaco, a program that's uh focusing on luxury and brand management and master degree.
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:12.640
This is number one that you can choose, and then you can have a specialization in, for example, um diamonds and jewelry, transportation, yachting, whatever you like to.
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:20.319
So you can go, you get the uh foundation of how it is, what you can do in order to manage the customer experience in luxury, yeah.
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:29.119
And then you can go in the second part of uh our curriculum, you can go into more depths of something that's in particular of interest to you.
00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:37.599
And uh, I have to say, I'm really delighted that because um our partners, not only in Monaco but worldwide, love our work.
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:50.960
And for example, when we walk over to the Monaco Yacht Show, there's not uh a minute goes by that a former student or some manager grabs us and they thinks a lot, you guys are the greatest, you know.
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:53.119
I mean that makes us very proud.
00:30:53.279 --> 00:31:06.319
And but most of the um most of uh the companies or the managers don't have the time to take a year out of their life in order to acquire that kind of skill set.
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:26.880
And this is why we work with great people like you and are developing, already executed and offer executive education programs at IUM, which target in particular the customer experience management, the customer journey map of the ultra-high network individuals, or even the customer journey mapping in general.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:32:06.960
So these are the kind of offerings where we take insights from great people like you, who are out there at the front working with the people, and our research and insights and combine it something that they can have either on demand, in a course, online, or come to Monaco whenever that may be possible in the future, or we come to you in order to deliver you the insights that really help you not only differentiate your company and differentiate you uh as a manager in the skills that are required, but give you a sustainable competitive advantage because this is what uh understanding the customer experience is all about.
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:08.000
Thank you, Phil.
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:11.440
And and um uh yeah, and thank thank you for mentioning those pieces.
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:15.519
I mean, it's been great to be involved and and and um most grateful to be involved.
00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:32.079
I mean, I know you have your own accreditation um because uh kind of you you recognize the importance of changing consumers' behaviour uh as being sort of a very reliable indicator of um customer experience success.
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:37.359
You know, you you try something, it changed the behavior in the way you want it to, it must have been a success.
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:40.559
Much more reliable than just asking, are you satisfied?
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:44.319
and then two minutes later your behaviour goes back to what it was before.
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:46.640
But I just want to ask this particular point.
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:54.319
So if I was looking at getting into luxury management um and luxury customer experience, which path would you say I should go down?
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:59.759
Should I focus on understanding yachts or should I focus on understanding the ultra-high net worth customer?
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:01.039
What would be your advice?
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:02.960
Ultra high net worth customer.
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:31.920
Which is understand the customer experience, you know, and there are also companies out there that will help you in order to help also your managers to gain other certifications that help in order to understand the basics of customer experience, like pkcxi.com, you know, where you can look at and you have uh without having to go through all of this, have an opportunity to get this knowledge, but focus with a client.
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:37.839
Because what the the clients, the values that drive our decisions do not change.
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:45.680
You know, I always love that when companies say, uh, he is a financial service customer, he's an insurance customer, he's a car customer.
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:53.279
I said, no, he's a customer, and you is a little part in his life or her life, not more.
00:33:53.839 --> 00:34:06.559
So he is a customer every day of the week, and the way he chooses one car over the other is the same that he chooses one super yacht over the other or the toothpaste one over the other.
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:13.280
Because the way the he or she makes decisions is the same, just the context is a different one.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:16.079
So you need to understand the human being.
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:31.280
So if you understand the ultra-high network individual, it doesn't matter if you work for a uh a jet company, a super young company, a fine art dealership, or if you work with somebody who deals in antique cars.
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:36.639
Because you know what kind of experience this individual is looking for.
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:36.960
Yeah.
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:46.559
If you know what makes people do why they do the things you do, everything else is just uh a context and you adapt accordingly to it.
00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:48.079
So that's the first thing, isn't it?
00:34:48.239 --> 00:35:12.960
Really understand what matters most to your customers, what changes their behavior, and then when it comes down to whether that, as you wonderfully put, whether it's choosing your toothpaste or choosing your luxury yacht, the things that matter most, whilst the execution differs, the things that matter to me as an individual will be consistent.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:14.559
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:16.960
I mean, uh, it's kind of your credo.
00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:19.119
I love that about you, Christopher.
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:27.920
What matters most for the customer, you know, and what matters most for the customer is the only thing that should matter for the company.
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:28.639
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:34.239
Because the people who understand that are the ones that outperform others by 600%.
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:38.880
Even nine out of ten do not generate profits.
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:41.920
But that's I guess is for that's another podcast.
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:55.360
So yeah, we we we get a whole podcast on uh how you can get it so wrong, which is uh is something I know from from the work you've done, you've been able to kind of identify that blueprint of how to get it wrong.
00:35:55.519 --> 00:36:01.920
And uh you and I both know we can see organizations out there that you can just see from what they do where they're going wrong.
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:17.199
But this has been about um getting it right, and I think you've opened a window into a world that very few of us get a chance to look into, but I think you've presented it in a way that makes it feel a lot more accessible to many than perhaps they believed it was as well.
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:23.840
And uh, and yeah, toothpaste and luxury yachts, maybe that'll become the title of uh this podcast.
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:28.079
Um uh well, Phil, look, it's as always it's it's a pleasure.
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:34.480
Um, it's a delight to kind of get you on tape so that we can actually share your thinking with the rest of the world as well.
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:37.599
So um I'm gonna sign off there.
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:38.960
Thank you so much.
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:43.280
Congratulations, uh, by the way, with the work you're doing in the yachting industry.
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:46.559
I mean, you're you're breaking boundaries there, you know, you're you're creating first.
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:48.079
So congratulations on that.
00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:49.199
That's really important.
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:57.280
And I look forward to hearing um many more similar conquests across the world of luxury management as you achieve them.
00:36:57.519 --> 00:36:58.880
So thank you once again.
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:06.719
And and Phil, you know, you don't need me to say this, but you are my customer experience superhero, so delighted to have you on this podcast.
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:10.159
Thank you so very much for your kind words, Christopher.
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:12.000
And I have a question for you.
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:12.639
Please.
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:16.800
If I'm a superhero, which one would I be?
00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:27.760
Ah, well, you there are six powers to the superhero, you know, the the analytical capability, um the interpretation, the stakeholder management.
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:29.360
So you kind of have them all.
00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:34.159
So I think probably you'd have to be the entire Marvel Comics range.
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:38.639
I think you'd be Stan Lee, the creator of the superhero.
00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:40.000
Maybe that's your role.
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:47.039
Maybe you don't like that because it you know it ages you a bit, but maybe you're the creator of the superhero pulling all the strings behind the scenes.
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:49.920
I thought you would say proper sake, Xavier.
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:56.000
I'd take Stan Lee every time.
00:37:56.800 --> 00:37:58.400
He's the godfather of it, isn't he?
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:00.480
He created the superhero, so there you go.
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:06.559
All right, Phil, well, that thank you ever so much, and uh keep well and uh speak again soon.
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:07.199
Thank you.
00:00:18.239 --> 00:00:23.359
Hello, and welcome to Clientship's Customer Experience Superheroes Podcast Series.
00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:32.159
In this series, we explore the superpowers, the hidden qualities needed to be a leader in today's customer experience world.
00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:36.560
And in this episode, we introduce you to Professor Dr.
00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:37.439
Phil Klaus.
00:00:37.759 --> 00:00:44.399
He'll be familiar to many of you, but this is an individual that I've had the pleasure of being associated with for a number of years.
00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:49.359
Probably the leading expert academic in the world of customer experience.
00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:57.920
And he's going to spend his time today talking about the importance of customer experience for the ultra-high network individual.
00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:05.599
So I am absolutely delighted today that we are going to be talking to Professor Dr.
00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:06.560
Phil Klaus.
00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:07.840
Welcome.
00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:10.799
Thank you so very much for having me, Christopher.
00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:14.719
And you, of course, as a friend can call me Phil without all the title.
00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:16.319
That's going to make it much easier.
00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:18.000
So thank you very much, Phil.
00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:19.920
Well, look, this is great.
00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:23.280
I'm delighted we finally got you onto our podcast.
00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:27.760
But um, and you and I, I've been very privileged to work with you.
00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:32.879
I've I've worked with your studies and I've learned from them massively as a customer experience professional.
00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:37.280
But obviously, our listeners, some of them, God forbid, may not know who you are.
00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:45.200
So would you mind just giving us a couple of minutes introduction in terms of uh your role in customer experience and the activities that you're up to?
00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:46.239
Yes, of course.
00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:48.959
Thank you so very much, Christopher, for giving me the opportunity.
00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:54.319
I'm of course delighted to have the opportunity to talk with you in our audience today.
00:01:54.719 --> 00:02:04.560
I'm believe I'm globally considered one of the leading customer experience strategists and researchers, whatever that means.
00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:11.840
So I always say perceptions are reality, so if people talk this way about me, it's just gonna be fine.
00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:16.800
Before I became an academic, I had a real job, as I often mentioned.
00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:31.280
So I was a senior marketing manager, and while being a senior marketing manager, I often encountered the shortcomings of all the tools, toys, and technologies we in marketing and in customer experience are so obsessed about.
00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:36.159
And while encountering them, I found out there's no silver bullet for these things.
00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:43.520
And whenever we had something offered from the likes of McKinsey, from a business school, or from whomever it is, it worked.
00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:46.560
But it only worked for a limited amount of time.
00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:54.319
And exactly this mindset led my former MBA program director to suggest that I become a researcher.
00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:19.120
And I thought, despite the poor payment that you receive as an academic in comparison to being a marketing professional, I thought that sounded like a very enticing proposition.
00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:21.680
And from this moment I never looked back.
00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:28.560
So we started to explore how you can measure customer experience in the most efficient and effective way.
00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:30.080
Because according to Peter F.
00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:33.919
Trucker, only what gets measured gets managed.
00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:42.319
And this was always my credo, and it's one thing that always reflected very well that our managerial audience, being a manager myself.
00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:45.520
And from there on, there was no stopping back.
00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:56.960
Once we know this measurement is superior to everything else, that there are some that outperform the others by 600% in terms of profitability.
00:03:57.120 --> 00:03:58.479
But we looked at both sides.
00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:01.120
So we looked at what works and what doesn't work.
00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:18.240
And from there on, we just uh went farther and farther, looked more into why, in some cases it works, why in some cases it doesn't work, what are the resources you need, the capabilities, how should customer experience be done, what is working?
00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:23.600
And we uh during this time we also busted a lot of myths.
00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:33.600
You know, this customer experience myth, such as the net promoter score works, uh why satisfaction doesn't work, negative words is positive word of mouse.
00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:39.040
Can I link customer experience to profitability and all these fascinating things?
00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:47.839
And then, of course, we expanded and extended it in all kinds of different segments, different industries, different countries, different continents.
00:04:48.160 --> 00:05:09.439
So by having the opportunity as a researcher, and I know I'm now uh longer than two minutes talking about this, but forgive me, and my enthusiasm and my passion for customer experience, by collecting all this data, we now have a very good understanding what works and what doesn't work.
00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:24.720
But of course, being uh a scholar and a researcher and academic, we do not often reach the managerial audience because they commonly think we tell them things that already know in a language they can hardly understand.
00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:28.480
But with my managerial background, this is slightly different.
00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:41.519
And we just recently looked into the ultra-high net worth individuals, who the uber rich, as they call it, the billionaires.
00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:58.720
And everybody told me right from the start that first of all, not only luxury is entirely different from all the research you did before, but the ultra-high net worth individuals are completely different from what you've researched or believe you know.
00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:03.920
And we said, well, we always love a challenge, so let's take a deeper look into that.
00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:28.879
And surprise, surprise, um the hypothesis, for the lack of a better word, that we had at the beginning, that they are not different in any way, shape, or form from uh somebody buying uh toothpaste or how to choose uh one car or one brand over the other, are entirely similar to the ultra-high net worth individuals.
00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:39.120
So no surprise there for us, but for the others, researching it and thinking about it and working in the industry, it was a rude wake-up call.
00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:57.360
But the most interesting part for us was when you think of luxury, one thing I love when you talk to luxury managers, they always tell you our job is to exceed expectations.
00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:13.519
So every time we meet a luxury client or a luxury company that would like to, how shall I say, take advantage of the insights that we offer, we go through a very nice small exercise.
00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:16.639
We say, okay, let's do the following.
00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:27.199
Every single one of you writes down the expectations you would have as a customer choosing your service, your product, or your experience.
00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:28.560
Write them down.
00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:37.360
And after that, we collect them and try to synthesize and summarize it, and most of the time you cannot get them on one slide.
00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:37.680
Right.
00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:39.199
So there are two, three, four, three.
00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:41.199
Exactly.
00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:46.399
So I said, okay, now we've got four people of yours, and look at these expectations.
00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:51.040
Do you believe you can meet these expectations just from U4?
00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:53.839
And everybody says, Oh, that's impossible.
00:07:54.160 --> 00:08:00.000
I said, okay, now how many of your is how many people is in your client base?
00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:04.720
And I say uh hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands.
00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:09.040
I said, okay, now multiply this with the number of your clients.
00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:10.240
Yeah.
00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:14.000
Ah, I believe we get your point.
00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:20.079
And the point is just to meet expectations.
00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:20.480
Yeah.
00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:25.439
And I always ask them, but you say you're gonna exceed expectations.
00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:30.639
And by telling somebody that you exceed expectations, you do what?
00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:34.879
You raise expectations.
00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:44.080
So the chances that a customer, client, patient will be dissatisfied becomes significantly larger.
00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:46.080
And you created that yourself.
00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:47.919
It's your own doing.
00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:48.960
Exactly.
00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:51.519
It's you who manage the expectations.
00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:54.720
And they say, yeah, but everybody in luxury does that.
00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:56.559
You have to exceed expectations.
00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:08.960
I said, um, to be quite honest, according to a research of a dear friend of mine, the only thing that you can do by doing this delight strategy is delight your company into bankruptcy.
00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:26.639
I do remember um hearing Ferrari, and this may be a myth, but Ferrari estimates just how many customers are going to want a car that year, and then they reduce production by 10% to help manage expectations that you possibly won't get a Ferrari this year.
00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:32.080
Um as opposed to you know sort of laying on extra production to to meet the greater demand.
00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:38.240
And I I guess that's that's the difference between um smart luxury brands and and others.
00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:40.240
Excellent point you've raised.
00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:44.320
Yeah, and in luxury they called it um aspiration.
00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:44.960
Mm-hmm.
00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:45.519
Mm-hmm.
00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:48.720
So let's let's let's just take a step back there.
00:09:48.799 --> 00:10:26.879
So um thank you so much for kind of sharing that that that history of of where you've come from and kind of I think anyone listening to that will recognise the credibility and what you say is underpinned by science, as opposed to sort of you know what you've you've read on the pages of uh popular magazines, it's actually underpinned by science, and not only that, you've undertaken it, and I know from being involved in delivering some of that uh the work you've done, um, it's incredibly powerful when it's presented to organisations, and it's also award-winning, so therefore it comes with that that marker distinction that you want.
00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:46.399
But um if I can just take you back to the point around ultra-high net worth, because uh working with many organizations, we we get to deal with you know the mass affluent, we get to deal with the high net worth, and we all have these labels and kind of a think we know what category they fall into.
00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:53.120
But could you just help us understand how you know how different the ultra high net worth is?
00:10:53.200 --> 00:11:01.440
I mean, are there trillions of these individuals running around the world, or or are we talking about quite an exclusive group of uh potential customers here?
00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:04.960
In order to answer this question, I have to get a step back.
00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:21.440
In luxury, we have nine different sectors, and three of the sectors are fine arts, private aviation, which means your helicopter, private check, and so on, and the yachts and super yachts.
00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:31.759
So three of the nine sectors or the nine markets in the luxury sector are exclusively driven by the ultra-high net worth individuals.
00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:39.200
So you can see three parts of a third of all luxury is based upon one segment.
00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:40.799
And who are these people?
00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:54.000
An ultra-high net worth individual is normally defined as somebody who has a minimum net worth, meaning disposable income, of 30 million US dollars.
00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:58.879
0.003% of our population.
00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:11.200
Well, and when you look at these kind of things, we thought, well, let's look at these people, you know, and find out why they do what they do.
00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:22.240
Because at the end of the day, being in Monaco and working with the great people in Monaco and the industry in Monaco and the key players there, we have uh a unique situation.
00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.159
And one uh Monaco is normally related to two things.
00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:31.440
It's Formula One, because the Grand Prix, and secondly, yachting.
00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:34.320
Yeah, and in particular, super yachts.
00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:48.080
So we're talking super yachts and mega yachts, which are defined by a yacht that's at least 30 meters long and sells for an average of 10 million.
00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:53.440
And uh the farther you go up, the higher the numbers would get.
00:12:54.159 --> 00:13:04.480
So just to give you an idea, in 2018, all the builders together sold 58 super yachts worldwide.
00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:09.840
So that's every provider, every boatyard, every complete industry.
00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:11.600
58 of them.
00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:13.039
58, 58.
00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:14.159
That was it in one year.
00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:16.480
Well, a good year, was it a good year?
00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:19.840
Uh 2019 was actually a little bit better.
00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:20.240
Yeah.
00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:24.639
Uh and 2020 won't be quite the same as now.
00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:35.039
But uh looking at this, despite um looking at a very small sample size, there's a lot of money in there.
00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:46.960
And for example, you have give or take 1200 people who could be buying a super yacht worldwide.
00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:48.240
1200 people.
00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:48.559
Okay.
00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:49.919
1200.
00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:58.879
And um, we went out and asked people if they believe we could conduct research in this industry.
00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:04.240
And everybody we talked to in the industry said, no, this is impossible because of privacy.
00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:07.440
People don't talk to, they don't even talk to us.
00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:11.679
And we said, well, they will talk to us for the reason that you mentioned before.
00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:17.200
Our master is a truce rather than the paycheck or a consultancy agreement.
00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:24.480
And being scientists, we probably have different methods and different rigor on how to talk to people.
00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:39.679
And when people, when your respondent clearly feels that you're interested in what to say, instead of interested in taking something out that they can take advantage of, the conversation is an entirely different one.
00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:49.759
And uh in the short period of time, in our first research, we talked to people who have or purchase 50 plus yachts.
00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:53.519
This was our sample, which was unheard of in the industry.
00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:55.919
And I was saying, how did you pull that off?
00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:58.080
And we said uh the regular way.
00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:03.759
You ask people, and once they get to know you, they recommend you to somebody else to talk to.
00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:07.919
It's very easy, you know, when they believe there's a value in that.
00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:30.320
And one of the things that clearly came out, which we were not aware of, is that we for the first time ever delivered not only for the industry, not only for business research, but for everyone involved in that segment, we mapped out the customer journey of an ultra-high network individual.
00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:30.720
Right.
00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:41.600
Because all the data and insights that were available were about uh where they come from, how old they are, how many billions they have, not why they do the things they do.
00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:42.320
I see.
00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:52.639
So it was much more what's what was the right what was there before was much more sort of demographic uh as opposed to how they engage and interact with organizations.
00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:53.759
Exactly.
00:15:53.919 --> 00:16:03.519
It was ever so often the how, when, what people are doing, rather than why people are doing what they do.
00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:11.279
And once we presented why people are doing what they do, we got Phil, I heard you uh wrack the bolt, you know.
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:15.759
Said, yeah, forgive the pun, but I guess that's what we did.
00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:18.799
And we got two kinds of reaction.
00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:24.080
We got uh one part of the audience said, we don't believe it.
00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:25.840
You know, what you're presenting.
00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:29.360
I said, well, um uh it's not about belief.
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:31.919
We are not a church, it's not a religion.
00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:35.360
You know, we present facts, and the facts are as follows.
00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:43.840
We hope that they will not apply to your particular case, but we did find no evidence that will support your claim.
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:44.559
Right.
00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:54.720
And then you have the other part of the audience who sat there and immediately after the presentation approached us and said, I believe you got it 100% right.
00:16:54.960 --> 00:17:04.799
I said, in our gut, we always believed this could be the truth, but we never had any evidence, it was just a gut feeling.
00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:09.440
We could never pinpoint it, we have no research, we don't know how to conduct it.
00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:21.119
And uh as uh a dear friend told me also, he said, we build boats, we have no clue about customer experience, which is interesting, isn't it?
00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:28.880
Because the uninitiated looking in, the assumption is of course you must understand your customer better than anyone else.
00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:37.279
You've got so few products you're selling, they've got such high expectations, which we realise now are set by the industry and not by the customer themselves.
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:43.200
But looking outside in, you think, well, you must be getting it right, you cannot afford to get it wrong at that level.
00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:51.519
But from what you're saying, they're happily dive into an engine or to to buy the the best finish possible on the on the planet Earth.
00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:56.079
But when it comes to are you responsive, do you resolve my issues?
00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:58.160
Are you managing my expectations?
00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:03.119
All these customer requirements are uh they're alien to them.
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:05.440
I couldn't have said it better myself.
00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:08.240
You can write the next summary of all papers.
00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:15.759
No, it's exactly as you say, it's about uh managing expectations.
00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:27.119
And the interesting part is uh uh when uh people ask me how you would summarize, I want to have the ultimate tailor-made experience.
00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:27.920
Yeah.
00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:36.400
Because it doesn't get any more tailor-made than having a super yacht built to where everything is to your specification.
00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:56.640
We had some uh interviews with marvelous people who told us later on, it's so great when you walk through the boat, no matter how large it is, and you remember the moment where you chose this door knob over another, and how it is now perfectly you know, the joy of creation is quite there.
00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:12.480
And I mean uh and to be quite honest, um, while people might say the segment of uh a super yacht is this the same people who buy a super yacht buy a private jet, private aviation, or the private helicopters.
00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:17.039
However, the emotional attachment is a completely different one.
00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:26.160
One is transportation, the other one is the ultimate luxury in terms of there's something that you do not need.
00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:32.079
There's nothing more emotional than buying, having, and owning a super yacht.
00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:32.720
Yeah.
00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:40.640
And to summarize it, I say everybody we are talking about in the industry always use one saying.
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:47.119
And the saying goes, there are only two days of happiness in the life of a yacht owner.
00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:51.920
The day he buys the yacht and the day he sells the yacht.
00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:56.240
That's very, very interesting.
00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:02.880
So the whole creation part of the yacht is a is a massive part of the experience then.
00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:24.880
And I'm guessing this is because it's invariably fraught with challenges, both in terms of the yacht itself, but the you know, maybe if you if you are ultra high net worth, your availability uh to coincide when the yacht is available, to coincide when the weather's great, all those factors rarely align to make it a perfect experience for you.
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:39.119
So you you remember back to the previous experience as being the utopian time rather than that time we were out and we went to Corsica and it rained miserably, and I missed that business meeting, and it was a disaster of a day.
00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.960
You remember that build day, and then I guess it gets to a point where you go, What am I doing?
00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:49.680
and you sell it, and then and then the burden of it is is the the relief you you have is gone.
00:20:50.000 --> 00:21:02.079
It it is uh it's for us it was amazing to see um what a yacht owner describes be the experience of owning the yacht.
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:10.960
Because um at the end of the day I compared it with uh Dante's Nine Gates of Hell.
00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:20.240
Okay, because this is how yacht owners describe owning a yacht, the process of getting towards it.
00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:20.640
Yeah.
00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:44.400
But then the most amazing thing is when you you should see that how their how their faces, how their eyes light up when they talk about this unique experience, these moments that they're shared with their friends, family, and beloved on on the yacht that they will never forget.
00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:49.599
I say these moments are it's like the MasterCard commercial, priceless.
00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:52.720
And it's exactly like this.
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:58.799
They say, in these moments you forget everything, all the pain that comes with it.
00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:06.079
And let's be called Quite honest, um uh the owners of Super Yacht describing it as running a small company.
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:22.799
Okay, and most of these people are entrepreneurs, yeah, you know, serial entrepreneurs, so they know how it is to run a company, but often their uh friends and family then said we wanted that to enjoy our quality time together.
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:34.480
So the six weeks maximum that you probably spent on a yacht, if you're only in one location, meaning you're either in the Caribbean or you're either at the Mediterranean, you know.
00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:42.240
Not a lot of people use it for 12 months because the logistic to bring it from one part of the world to the other is just horrible.
00:22:42.400 --> 00:23:06.480
And they say, okay, so I use it for six weeks, but the other um remaining 46 weeks of the year, it's just a pain to deal with captains, um managing companies, staff, insurance, accountants, lawyers, and everything that comes with it.
00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:11.519
And they don't speak too highly of the entire service ecosystem.
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:11.839
Right.
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:29.680
As a matter of fact, um uh the the commons are never flattery and they range from um failed real estate agents to describe the brokers, the sales side of it, all the way to corruption.
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:31.519
Right.
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:32.079
Okay.
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:33.759
So it's broad change.
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:36.079
It's not flattery to say the least.
00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:38.079
There's a couple of things in there, Phil.
00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:53.680
One is um I think you've just in that last response given the most compelling reason I can think of as to why it's so important to really understand your customers before you embark upon anything.
00:23:54.160 --> 00:23:59.920
Too often, I think organizations will get a bit of a feedback, it could be aggregated data.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:05.839
Maybe they'd uh got the debrief from a focus group, and and and maybe they've even sat in a one viewing gallery.
00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:14.720
But but actually, well, the way you've just described it, it's kind of you know, as Dante, the way you talk about how you see their eyes light up, that's what research is really about, isn't it?
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:23.359
So you can actually feel the customer, you can understand where they are, and that allows you to get to I think that level of something I've never really thought about before.
00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:33.440
That if you're gonna own a yacht whilst everyone else is away escaping and having fun, having a holiday, you're running a business.
00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:45.519
So that moment where everything is going perfectly, it's very temporary because then three minutes later, someone taps you on the shoulder and says, Ah, really sorry, but the second chef seems to have a sickness bug.
00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:54.880
I think we're gonna need to get a new chef at the next, and then you're back into the world of managing, micromanaging, which is what you probably do as you say you're an entrepreneur, you manage anyway.
00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:01.599
So it's not escapism, it becomes another project for you rather than being the escapism you imagined it to be.
00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:15.119
So I think you don't get to that level of insight and understanding unless you really do your research properly, and when you do, it only then allows you to think, how can I help make the situation better for the customer?
00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:23.039
Because I think most people would have answered that brief to say give them a bigger, shinier boat, make them feel more loved.
00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:41.839
But actually, from what you've just said there, the solution is a lot more complicated, and actually, what you need to do is to make sure that in your yachting business you employ people who have got you know luxury management qualifications who who understand and empathize with an ultra-high net worth, not with yachts.
00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:44.079
It's about empathis with ultra-high net worth.
00:25:44.160 --> 00:26:00.000
So, thank you for sharing that because I think that's really just incredible insight, and and obviously it goes to show the difference between you know, sort of well, not doing any research, doing what you think ticks the box, and and having, as you say, the truth is your master, which means I can keep going here with my research.
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:04.559
I have no I can keep going until I find if I don't find it, I can keep going.
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:07.920
Which is a luxury in itself, you know, truth is a luxury, isn't it?
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:09.440
So uh thank you for sharing that, Phil.
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:11.279
That's that's quite incredible.
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:18.160
Because we are in Monaco and uh we we are quite happy to work and assist the people.
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:24.640
For example, uh one week ago we had a meeting uh where we present our findings to the Monaco Yacht Cluster.
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:42.160
Yep, and they uh because one thing that's uh also for the ultra-higher network individuals, especially in the super yacht context, is that you work with a lot of people, a lot of different stakeholders, great service ecosystem, and they're never managed perfectly together.
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:51.200
So at the end of our discussion, after we presented the finding, we were asked uh where we see the future of the industry heading to you have a one-stop solution.
00:26:51.440 --> 00:27:22.079
Okay, a broker house that will also build shipyards and has managing and everything together with it and provides you with the right crew, with the right captain, with the right people, and deliver it on time, or you will have somebody who builds boats who acquires others' resources and capabilities like sales, yachting, tax accountancy, and uh captain crew membership, hire the right people, human resources, in order to get one package.
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:31.279
In particular, the people who buy for the very first time often have the feeling that they are being taken for a ride, to say the least.
00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:35.680
And this is uh very uh this is something that the industry struggles with.
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:42.960
Because uh while billionaires uh we have more and more, there's less and less interest in superior.
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:43.920
Right.
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:58.559
You know, and this is something the industry clearly understands they have to get back to the experience, what people experience with us and need to not reinvent how to do it, but go back to the basics.
00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:09.279
That's a really interesting so that's the future of the the industry there, which has sort of done it to itself by not providing the set levels of experience that customers are looking for.
00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:40.960
So Philip Fine interesting, you know, it's an interesting area, and and kind of what you realise with customer experience is whilst customer experience is a horribly generic term that is so multifaceted, it's also when you look at specific sectors, the specifics in those sectors, so in the agriculture industry, the the yachting industry, they require a certain ability, a confidence, uh, and a set of kind of super um powers when it comes to kind of customer experience.
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:57.359
So if I was to try and leap into the world of luxury management um and and and high ultra high net worth, what would be your advice to customer experience professionals who are looking at that sector and thinking this is one that I want to add value to?
00:28:57.680 --> 00:28:59.119
That's a tough one.
00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:00.799
Let me put it in this way.
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:08.559
Um, we look now at over 2,000 companies, and we can clearly see that uh that there's a DNA of customer experience.
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:08.960
Yep.
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:15.359
There's a reason why all of us uh make our decision in the way we make our decision.
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:20.160
And there are some moderating and mediating effects according to the context.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:32.400
But the way we make decisions is always the same, and the way we should measure this uh the customer experience is always the same because uh I look at our measurement and uh we know it works wherever it is.
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:40.000
If you sell nuclear power plants, you know, or if you sell software out of Seattle, uh the experience that you're looking for.
00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:45.519
But the the tough one to crack is what shall I do in order to get into this business?
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:58.640
Well, we are fortunate enough to have uh in Monaco at IUM, International University of Monaco, a program that's uh focusing on luxury and brand management and master degree.
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:12.640
This is number one that you can choose, and then you can have a specialization in, for example, um diamonds and jewelry, transportation, yachting, whatever you like to.
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:20.319
So you can go, you get the uh foundation of how it is, what you can do in order to manage the customer experience in luxury, yeah.
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:29.119
And then you can go in the second part of uh our curriculum, you can go into more depths of something that's in particular of interest to you.
00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:37.599
And uh, I have to say, I'm really delighted that because um our partners, not only in Monaco but worldwide, love our work.
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:50.960
And for example, when we walk over to the Monaco Yacht Show, there's not uh a minute goes by that a former student or some manager grabs us and they thinks a lot, you guys are the greatest, you know.
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:53.119
I mean that makes us very proud.
00:30:53.279 --> 00:31:06.319
And but most of the um most of uh the companies or the managers don't have the time to take a year out of their life in order to acquire that kind of skill set.
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:26.880
And this is why we work with great people like you and are developing, already executed and offer executive education programs at IUM, which target in particular the customer experience management, the customer journey map of the ultra-high network individuals, or even the customer journey mapping in general.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:32:06.960
So these are the kind of offerings where we take insights from great people like you, who are out there at the front working with the people, and our research and insights and combine it something that they can have either on demand, in a course, online, or come to Monaco whenever that may be possible in the future, or we come to you in order to deliver you the insights that really help you not only differentiate your company and differentiate you uh as a manager in the skills that are required, but give you a sustainable competitive advantage because this is what uh understanding the customer experience is all about.
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:08.000
Thank you, Phil.
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:11.440
And and um uh yeah, and thank thank you for mentioning those pieces.
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:15.519
I mean, it's been great to be involved and and and um most grateful to be involved.
00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:32.079
I mean, I know you have your own accreditation um because uh kind of you you recognize the importance of changing consumers' behaviour uh as being sort of a very reliable indicator of um customer experience success.
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:37.359
You know, you you try something, it changed the behavior in the way you want it to, it must have been a success.
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:40.559
Much more reliable than just asking, are you satisfied?
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:44.319
and then two minutes later your behaviour goes back to what it was before.
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:46.640
But I just want to ask this particular point.
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:54.319
So if I was looking at getting into luxury management um and luxury customer experience, which path would you say I should go down?
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:59.759
Should I focus on understanding yachts or should I focus on understanding the ultra-high net worth customer?
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:01.039
What would be your advice?
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:02.960
Ultra high net worth customer.
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:31.920
Which is understand the customer experience, you know, and there are also companies out there that will help you in order to help also your managers to gain other certifications that help in order to understand the basics of customer experience, like pkcxi.com, you know, where you can look at and you have uh without having to go through all of this, have an opportunity to get this knowledge, but focus with a client.
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:37.839
Because what the the clients, the values that drive our decisions do not change.
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:45.680
You know, I always love that when companies say, uh, he is a financial service customer, he's an insurance customer, he's a car customer.
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:53.279
I said, no, he's a customer, and you is a little part in his life or her life, not more.
00:33:53.839 --> 00:34:06.559
So he is a customer every day of the week, and the way he chooses one car over the other is the same that he chooses one super yacht over the other or the toothpaste one over the other.
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:13.280
Because the way the he or she makes decisions is the same, just the context is a different one.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:16.079
So you need to understand the human being.
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:31.280
So if you understand the ultra-high network individual, it doesn't matter if you work for a uh a jet company, a super young company, a fine art dealership, or if you work with somebody who deals in antique cars.
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:36.639
Because you know what kind of experience this individual is looking for.
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:36.960
Yeah.
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:46.559
If you know what makes people do why they do the things you do, everything else is just uh a context and you adapt accordingly to it.
00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:48.079
So that's the first thing, isn't it?
00:34:48.239 --> 00:35:12.960
Really understand what matters most to your customers, what changes their behavior, and then when it comes down to whether that, as you wonderfully put, whether it's choosing your toothpaste or choosing your luxury yacht, the things that matter most, whilst the execution differs, the things that matter to me as an individual will be consistent.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:14.559
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:16.960
I mean, uh, it's kind of your credo.
00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:19.119
I love that about you, Christopher.
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:27.920
What matters most for the customer, you know, and what matters most for the customer is the only thing that should matter for the company.
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:28.639
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:34.239
Because the people who understand that are the ones that outperform others by 600%.
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:38.880
Even nine out of ten do not generate profits.
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:41.920
But that's I guess is for that's another podcast.
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:55.360
So yeah, we we we get a whole podcast on uh how you can get it so wrong, which is uh is something I know from from the work you've done, you've been able to kind of identify that blueprint of how to get it wrong.
00:35:55.519 --> 00:36:01.920
And uh you and I both know we can see organizations out there that you can just see from what they do where they're going wrong.
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:17.199
But this has been about um getting it right, and I think you've opened a window into a world that very few of us get a chance to look into, but I think you've presented it in a way that makes it feel a lot more accessible to many than perhaps they believed it was as well.
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:23.840
And uh, and yeah, toothpaste and luxury yachts, maybe that'll become the title of uh this podcast.
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:28.079
Um uh well, Phil, look, it's as always it's it's a pleasure.
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:34.480
Um, it's a delight to kind of get you on tape so that we can actually share your thinking with the rest of the world as well.
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:37.599
So um I'm gonna sign off there.
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:38.960
Thank you so much.
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:43.280
Congratulations, uh, by the way, with the work you're doing in the yachting industry.
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:46.559
I mean, you're you're breaking boundaries there, you know, you're you're creating first.
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:48.079
So congratulations on that.
00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:49.199
That's really important.
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:57.280
And I look forward to hearing um many more similar conquests across the world of luxury management as you achieve them.
00:36:57.519 --> 00:36:58.880
So thank you once again.
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:06.719
And and Phil, you know, you don't need me to say this, but you are my customer experience superhero, so delighted to have you on this podcast.
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:10.159
Thank you so very much for your kind words, Christopher.
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:12.000
And I have a question for you.
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:12.639
Please.
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:16.800
If I'm a superhero, which one would I be?
00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:27.760
Ah, well, you there are six powers to the superhero, you know, the the analytical capability, um the interpretation, the stakeholder management.
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:29.360
So you kind of have them all.
00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:34.159
So I think probably you'd have to be the entire Marvel Comics range.
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:38.639
I think you'd be Stan Lee, the creator of the superhero.
00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:40.000
Maybe that's your role.
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:47.039
Maybe you don't like that because it you know it ages you a bit, but maybe you're the creator of the superhero pulling all the strings behind the scenes.
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:49.920
I thought you would say proper sake, Xavier.
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:56.000
I'd take Stan Lee every time.
00:37:56.800 --> 00:37:58.400
He's the godfather of it, isn't he?
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:00.480
He created the superhero, so there you go.
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:06.559
All right, Phil, well, that thank you ever so much, and uh keep well and uh speak again soon.
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:07.199
Thank you.
