A Conversation w/ Rae

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Hey guys, it's me again. As promised, I'm back with
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another bonus episode that I think many of you will
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be excited to hear. As you know, season one of
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Culpable focused on the suspicious death of 21-year-old Christian Andreacchio
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in Meridian, Mississippi. But if you listen to the show,
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then you know that a lot of the story actually
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centered around his family, primarily his mother, Ray Andreacchio, and
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her relentless pursuit of justice. The more I got to
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know Ray and hear her journey to find the truth
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about what happened to her son, the more compelled I
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was to share her journey, knowing that there are so
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many other families out there who find themselves in a
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similar position. And because of that, Rae became a very
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central figure in all of this. She and I have
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stayed in touch ever since, either through text message or email,
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but sadly we hadn't had a true sit-down, in-depth type
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of conversation in many years. So on the heels of
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that last episode I dropped, where I listened to and
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gave commentary on the making of episode one, I decided
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why not go ahead and do that now, while I'm
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actively reflecting on that experience. So recently, we had that
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long-awaited conversation, doing some more reflecting on Season 1, catching
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up on all that's happened and been learned since, and
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discussing what's to come in the future. Today, I'll be
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sharing that conversation with you. I hope you enjoy listening
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to this and hearing Rey's voice for the first time
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in many years. Make sure you stick around to the
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end as I have a couple announcements about some more
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episodes that we'll be releasing in the coming weeks as
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we prepare for the release of Season 3 this August.
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And with that, let's hear from Rey. Well, I'm glad
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we're getting this chance to connect. Again, it's really good
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to see you. I told you when I reached out
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about this, what kind of led me to want to
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do this was that I started producing another episode, basically
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just a re-release of episode one of Culpable, the original,
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very first episode I ever created, just to kind of
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relive that. And that was really neat, and it kind
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of brought out a lot of thoughts, questions, and whatnot,
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and I realized it'd be really good to play catch
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up with you. How's everybody doing? What's new in your
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all's lives?
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Well, since the podcast, I guess I now have four grandchildren.
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So we have a five, four, three, two year old.
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That's awesome.
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Two boys, two girls.
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Alexa has a boy and a girl and Josh has
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a boy and a girl. And so, you know, we're
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just starting the T-ball registrations and the dance recitals and
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that kind of thing. So, kind of entered a new phase,
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I guess, in Todd and I's life. Alexa's still a
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little close to us and Dale Wood. They're doing pretty
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well and staying busy. Josh is working full time at
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the Navy base here in Meridian and he likes his
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job and he's doing kind of the tech thing, simulators.
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Which is right up his alley.
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That's awesome. Has that been exciting for you all?
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Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think it helps, too, even
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dealing with Christian's death is, you know, you have these
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little ones. And I catch myself, especially Ashton, he's the five-year-old,
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telling Alexa, now that was just like Christian.
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We say that all the time.
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So, yes, I think that that has been very helpful
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as far as just kind of a healing process.
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That's awesome. What about for Josh and Alexa? I mean,
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how's the parenting life going for them? Good.
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I mean, they're both good parents.
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Totally opposite spectrums as you've met Alexa and you've met Josh.
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They're totally different personalities. Josh is a great father. He's
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always been so patient. And so, you know, he just
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never raises his voice and he's just kind of very zen.
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And Alexa, you know, Raises her children just like she
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lives life with her hair on fire and just running
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around and does a lot with them. I think it
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has helped them too. She'll send pictures of Ashton and
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then send a picture of Christian that was around that
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same age and go, you know, oh, they look so
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much alike or they are acting so much alike. So
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she and I probably talk more. Josh has always been
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very more reserved about talking about Christian and has always
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just kind of more internalized his feelings about that.
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Yeah, for sure. What about Todd?
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Todd is doing fine.
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Just, you know, he takes up a lot of time
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with grandkids, keeps them a lot. He's always been very
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good with kids. So he's their favorite for sure.
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Yeah, that's awesome. And what about you? What's new in
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your world?
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Just working, working.
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Same place? Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I'll probably be there till I die. You know, still
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working on in kind of in the background. I know
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a lot of people because we don't post a lot
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on Justice for Christian and we don't do a lot
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of updates primarily because of, you know, there's always been
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a lawsuit typically going on. And so a lot of people,
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I think, think it's kind of died down or that
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we've kind of just moved along with our life.
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And, you know, that's far from the truth.
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I still work on it all the time and still
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always looking for ways to try to move things forward.
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That's actually a good segue for me because, you know,
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kind of like I said, going back and listening to
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things and just brought back a lot of thoughts, like
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going back and hearing your voice for the first time
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and kind of put myself back in your living room
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and talking about stuff. Have you ever listened to the
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first episode of Culpable?
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I don't think that I ever listened to it, like
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sat down and listened to a complete episode. I think
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that after they released the autopsy photos, I really don't
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know that I ever listened. It wasn't anything about the podcast.
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It was just, I think that was kind of almost
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like a breaking point for me of I don't know.
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I just, it just kind of flipped a switch in me.
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And so I don't know that, I don't think I
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have ever listened at all to any of the last
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few episodes.
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And when you called, I thought this is really a
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neat idea.
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And I really should go back and listen to them,
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you know, one episode at a time, because I would
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probably be shocked at maybe things that now we know
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that we didn't, couldn't prove, now we can prove, or
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beliefs we had at that time that now we say, hey,
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we now know that was kind of the wrong path
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to go down. But, you know, people would send me
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little clips or whatever and, again, give feedback and whatever.
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I just really didn't get too involved in the discussions
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or anything because, I mean, it is very personal stuff.
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a lot of the information, as far as when I
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say personal, just feelings that you have. And again, I
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just really didn't want to hear some of it.
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Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. I don't hold that
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against you at all. I got emotional, you know, listening
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to you talk in episode and, you know, there's two
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different spots where you break down and cry and stuff.
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And that still gets me and just reflecting on the
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story itself and Christian. And then even like, creative elements
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to it, you know, the way we open the episode,
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the way you close the episode, the music and those things.
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Like I was surprised that, you know, it's, it still
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gave me chills, like listening to it. And so it's
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a heavy listen, the whole show is, but the first
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episode definitely is. And like, you know, when you take
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into account the production, the score, everything else, it just, um,
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it's very immersive and I could totally understand not wanting
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to fully immerse yourself in that. Not to mention you're
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constantly in it anyways. Why did you even trust me
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to tell this story? How did that even happen? Like,
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why did you trust us to do it?
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Well, I think one thing was probably because I came
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to y'all, you didn't come to me. You know, Victoria
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had gone to CrimeCon and she got your card just
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off a table, I think, you know, and had brought
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it back to me. And I had said, you know,
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I think that I'll just it won't be any good,
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but I'll try just to do a podcast or do
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some episodes or something.
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I didn't even know what it would be.
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And just at least somebody would be talking about, you know,
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and I think I even told the guy, I was like,
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I know nobody will listen to it. But, you know,
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it just make me feel better to know that I'm
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putting this information out there. Victoria had given me y'all's
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card and I had contacted. And so just whoever had
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answered the phone and I was asking him basically how
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much will it cost for y'all to edit? Because that's
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really what y'all were doing then was editing podcasts. You know,
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I think I ended up talking to him for like
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an hour on the phone. And at the end, he said, well,
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let me talk to some of our other team because
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we've been talking about doing our own podcast. And, you know,
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he said, let me just tell them the story and
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tell them. And then if they are interested, they'll get
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in touch with you.
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And y'all did. And I mean, I think, I guess
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it was just like a God thing.
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I don't know. I mean, just because, yes, I am
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a very distrustful person with anybody kind of you know,
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in any type of role that could harm. But I mean,
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I guess it was mainly because y'all did seem like
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you were honest. You seemed like you were sincere. You
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didn't come across as overeager, you know, like, oh, we're
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going to, you know, it was more like, hey, we
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don't really know what we're doing. We've never done a podcast,
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but we really would like to this be our first one.
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And you were very, all of who I consider the
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group is you, Jacob and Mark. All three of y'all
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were very upfront about that. You felt like you could
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do it justice, but you weren't going to make any
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guarantees because this was going to be your first try
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at this.
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Yeah.
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No, that's very accurate. Yeah. And I guess that's kind
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of why that question came to mind for me is like,
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we hadn't done it before. And I don't remember necessarily
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having a crazy amount of confidence. I mean, I think
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it was more, if anything, just like a passion of
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like a gut feeling of like, I think I can.
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But the funny thing is, I remember I had totally
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forgot about what you just said about how you were
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kind of already gearing up to try to do a
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podcast when we got in touch. And you're like, I
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even have a guy who's willing to host it. And
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I want to say he was even attached on the email.
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I don't remember who it was.
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Oh, I remember.
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Yeah.
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There was someone that I worked with, and I had
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asked him if I could kind of like write out
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the script or whatever you want to say, if he
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would be able to just narrate it.
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But yeah, I forgot about that.
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I had too. But now I remember it so vividly
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because looking back, I think when we first started talking,
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I believe I was entertaining the idea of him or
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at least somebody else hosting it because... I initially didn't
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want to do that. I've never really been one to
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put myself out there like that. And it just wasn't
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really my character and didn't feel natural. So I had
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no real itch to want to host it. And I
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just remember Jacob and Mark really trying to encourage me
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of like, you can do this. Just do it, man.
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But I guess it all worked out okay.
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Yeah, because it's like I was telling you, I think
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when we spoke last week, I mean, a lot of
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the comments that I see, usually are about, you know, oh,
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I love the guy who narrated it, or I love,
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you know, it was a great storytelling. And I know
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that you did, I guess, the majority or all of
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the actual writing of it.
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And, you know, so I think you should be very proud.
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Well, thank you.
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And I mean, I still see sometimes things come across
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Instagram or TikTok or whatever that will say, you know,
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here are my top 10 true crime podcasts. And culpable
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is typically in the top 10, even though it's been
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five or six years later.
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Yeah, no, that's awesome. I definitely do not take that
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for granted. We did something right. I mean, a lot
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of people listened. A lot of people still reach out
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about it this day. And actually, that's another good segue
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because that's what I wanted to ask you about. I
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get a lot of feedback from people who were very
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inspired by you and your courage and your determination to
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solve this case and get Christian justice. And I wanted
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to ask you like, Did you ever expect that, that
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you would be an inspiration in some ways to others
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and all this, like your journey and all this would
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inspire other people or move them in that way? Or
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do you ever hear any of that stuff directly from
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other people the same way I have through Culpable's channels?
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Well, to your first question, as far as being inspirational,
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I don't feel like I'm an inspirational figure or whatever
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at all. Because I look back... at all the mistakes made.
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I don't look at the right moves. I look at
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all the mistakes I made that I say, you know, well,
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if I had have made this choice or that choice,
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maybe we would, you know, maybe this would have happened.
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So as far as that goes.
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I mean, I'm glad that people took something away from it.
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And yes, I did get contacted.
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I don't, you know, now as much, but obviously during
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the podcast, even up to a couple of years after
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the podcast, people would contact me through usually Facebook Messenger
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and just say, hey, I had a similar situation or
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I have this going on. You know, actually, I've made
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a good friend with someone who is kind of in
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the early, I call her a baby because she's only
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two years into this. You know, it's her sister. And
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I see things that, the emotions that she's going through
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and like the attempts that she's doing to get things done.
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I encourage her and say, oh, this is great. Have
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you thought about doing this? But I also feel sad,
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you know, almost for her because I remember those feelings.
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I remember being hopeful, you know, being, oh, this is
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going to get, if we can just, you know, you
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get a letter from somebody, somebody acknowledges in like a
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government position that, And you get your hopes up and
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you think, oh no, this time I finally found that
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one person that something's.
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Going to be done.
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And then you don't hear from them, even though they
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swear they're going to call you back or they're going
287
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to look into this and they'll.
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Get back with you.
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So I'm always hopeful for her that she doesn't have
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the same experience, but I'm also cynical enough after this,
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the last 11 years to know that probably she's going
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to be let down.
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Yeah.
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On that note, For somebody who did find themselves in
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a similar situation as you, what would be your advice
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to somebody like that? How have you encouraged, for example,
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your friend in their journey?
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Well, actually, Jana is the friend. She reached out early on.
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What I told her when she said, you know, hey,
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I'm going to pursue this, I said, document, document, document.
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Record, record, record.
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I didn't do that at the very beginning because, again,
303
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I thought, you know, oh, everybody, somebody's going to do
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the right thing. Yeah, this was just a sorry investigator, but,
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you know, this next person, I'm going to go to them.
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And so it was, you know, months before I realized
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they're not going to do what they're supposed to do.
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And so the first probably six months, I didn't do
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00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:51.460
a good job of keeping very accurate records of I
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talked to this person at this time and having a
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witness and recording conversations and that kind of thing.
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Yeah, I didn't expect you to go that way. That's
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actually a really good piece of advice. And I know
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00:16:04.570 --> 00:16:07.009
it is because I've gone on to tell other families
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that same thing. And I think what you said earlier, too,
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before that, before I even asked that question is, It's
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helpful to just, you know, that mental preparation that what
318
00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:18.600
you're about to get into could be a really long
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00:16:18.659 --> 00:16:21.700
road and will for sure be a road of ups
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00:16:21.740 --> 00:16:25.320
and downs. You know, these good moments will hopefully happen
321
00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:28.419
along the way that instill some hope. But, you know,
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00:16:28.460 --> 00:16:29.980
there's also a really good chance that it's going to
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00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:33.240
be followed by some not so good things. You know,
324
00:16:33.259 --> 00:16:37.179
I got to see firsthand a lot of your journey
325
00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:39.799
with this. And we as a team kind of had
326
00:16:39.860 --> 00:16:43.039
our own journey with it. You know, with that, the
327
00:16:43.059 --> 00:16:46.139
same thing with how all this played out, none of
328
00:16:46.210 --> 00:16:50.129
us could have really prepared or known what this would
329
00:16:50.169 --> 00:16:52.690
turn into. There was such like a ripple effect with
330
00:16:52.730 --> 00:16:55.889
the podcast. You could say all the hate groups that
331
00:16:55.950 --> 00:16:59.429
formed like on Facebook and stuff. I didn't expect that.
332
00:17:00.049 --> 00:17:02.529
And then I think about what you mentioned earlier with
333
00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:07.180
his autopsy photos getting shared, getting released. And then you
334
00:17:07.220 --> 00:17:11.299
think about the lawsuits like that was just like, what?
335
00:17:11.849 --> 00:17:15.349
the hell has happened here? Like, oh my gosh. And
336
00:17:15.369 --> 00:17:18.470
you know, it all worked out fine and it's like,
337
00:17:18.539 --> 00:17:19.150
it never happened.
338
00:17:19.190 --> 00:17:19.410
Right.
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00:17:19.859 --> 00:17:23.960
So we were validated in that, but still, it was
340
00:17:24.019 --> 00:17:27.339
just like, I didn't expect this. And I wanted to
341
00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:31.160
ask you, like, was there ever a moment where you
342
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kind of had that, oh crap moment? Like, what have
343
00:17:34.019 --> 00:17:35.680
we started here? Or what is this turning into?
344
00:17:35.700 --> 00:17:40.440
Um, Not like in a way of, I wish I
345
00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.259
hadn't done this. I don't think that really ever crossed
346
00:17:43.299 --> 00:17:46.589
my mind. You know, and then like with the defamation lawsuit,
347
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I was actually fine with that. Because Cynthia, my attorney
348
00:17:52.730 --> 00:17:56.109
at the time, had always said the best thing that
349
00:17:56.150 --> 00:18:00.200
could happen would be for Whitley to file a defamation suit.
350
00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:02.220
She said because then she's going to have to be deposed.
351
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And then we can do depositions of all these people.
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And so I was okay with the defamation suit. You know,
353
00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:11.000
I knew they were going to.
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Drop it before she ever was deposed.
355
00:18:15.579 --> 00:18:16.160
How'd you know that?
356
00:18:16.869 --> 00:18:18.109
I knew she'd never be deposed.
357
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I've always said that that was just to shut me up,
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00:18:22.950 --> 00:18:24.430
and they thought it was going to shut me up.
359
00:18:25.769 --> 00:18:29.170
You know. Now, was I surprised that Jet was actually deposed?
360
00:18:29.690 --> 00:18:29.950
Yes.
361
00:18:30.349 --> 00:18:33.039
I really figured that they would drop it before anybody
362
00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:33.660
was deposed.
363
00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:34.700
But.
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00:18:35.269 --> 00:18:36.990
You know, like I said, that actually helped us.
365
00:18:38.069 --> 00:18:42.099
And then, you know, as far as the other lawsuits,
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00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:44.779
we knew that a lot of the lawsuits that were
367
00:18:44.819 --> 00:18:48.720
filed were iffy because there wasn't a lot of precedent
368
00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:52.329
out there. And Cynthia would say, we're either going to
369
00:18:52.369 --> 00:18:56.029
make precedent and make history or we're.
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Going to, you know, it's going to get dismissed.
371
00:18:58.230 --> 00:19:05.079
So I went in with not, you know, just huge hopes. But,
372
00:19:05.220 --> 00:19:06.640
you know, at the end of the day, we did
373
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get depositions. We did depose a lot of people. There,
374
00:19:09.910 --> 00:19:12.029
of course, were several that we would have liked to
375
00:19:12.069 --> 00:19:16.569
have deposed. You know, we served Whitley three times, I think,
376
00:19:16.990 --> 00:19:20.049
and she still was never deposed. We went all the
377
00:19:20.089 --> 00:19:24.079
way down the attorneys and the court reporter and all that.
378
00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:26.880
She was in jail down on the coast, and we
379
00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:29.259
went down there to depose her, thinking, okay, good.
380
00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:32.000
She's in jail. She can't run. She's got to show up.
381
00:19:32.670 --> 00:19:36.349
Went down there and she refused to come to the deposition.
382
00:19:36.410 --> 00:19:38.190
And they said, well, we can't make her come out,
383
00:19:38.339 --> 00:19:42.440
you know. So to me, that just showed that she
384
00:19:42.460 --> 00:19:44.240
had a lot of, you know, if you have so
385
00:19:44.299 --> 00:19:47.569
many things have been said that are wrong about you,
386
00:19:47.950 --> 00:19:49.970
this is your perfect opportunity to set it straight.
387
00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:56.539
And she dipped and dodged that. Dylan, the same way.
388
00:19:57.220 --> 00:20:02.549
Dylan, as soon as we started having people subpoenaed for depositions,
389
00:20:03.170 --> 00:20:07.450
he disappeared. He quit living in Delwood. And from my understanding,
390
00:20:07.509 --> 00:20:10.700
he even moved out of town for a while. making
391
00:20:10.740 --> 00:20:14.549
it very difficult for us to find him. So there
392
00:20:14.630 --> 00:20:18.230
were definitely some people that we weren't able to depose,
393
00:20:18.630 --> 00:20:21.490
but there were, again, a lot that we were able
394
00:20:21.529 --> 00:20:21.789
to get.
395
00:20:22.910 --> 00:20:25.240
How much are you able to go into the lawsuits
396
00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:27.880
at this point? Are those all over and done with?
397
00:20:28.660 --> 00:20:28.960
Yes.
398
00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:32.579
First time in years that there is no lawsuits filed.
399
00:20:33.579 --> 00:20:37.299
I still think there's one big lawsuit out there waiting
400
00:20:37.420 --> 00:20:40.200
to be filed. But, you know, I've got to find
401
00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:44.839
the right person that's willing to file that lawsuit. The
402
00:20:44.859 --> 00:20:51.269
statute of limitations for conspiracy starts the last act of conspiracy. Well,
403
00:20:51.470 --> 00:20:55.549
conspiracy is still ongoing because people are still lying in depositions.
404
00:20:56.710 --> 00:20:59.630
And I think that the depositions that we have done
405
00:21:00.150 --> 00:21:05.910
definitely paint a picture of conspiracy. But, you know, attorneys,
406
00:21:05.970 --> 00:21:08.220
other people have said, well, yeah, it does look like
407
00:21:08.500 --> 00:21:12.480
they were all kind of working together. So I'm still
408
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:16.880
hopeful that I can. And it's not a money thing.
409
00:21:17.180 --> 00:21:19.990
It's that people need to know. I mean, number one,
410
00:21:20.029 --> 00:21:22.089
they don't need to get away with it. Because I've
411
00:21:22.109 --> 00:21:26.650
always said there is nothing special about Christian's case or Christian,
412
00:21:26.829 --> 00:21:30.430
you know, to— it' s not like he was some political figure
413
00:21:30.450 --> 00:21:33.609
or anything, you know, some— But so if it's happened
414
00:21:33.650 --> 00:21:38.099
to him and me and my family, it's happened here
415
00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:42.900
in Lauderdale County, no telling how many times before and after. But,
416
00:21:42.940 --> 00:21:46.390
you know, the same people are still in the positions
417
00:21:46.509 --> 00:21:48.829
and it's going to keep on. And as long as
418
00:21:49.250 --> 00:21:53.450
they have no repercussions, there's no reason for them to stop.
419
00:21:54.150 --> 00:22:09.829
Yeah, that makes sense. What about new information? Do you
420
00:22:09.849 --> 00:22:16.710
feel like any new information was learned throughout those processes too? Yes.
421
00:22:17.529 --> 00:22:20.950
I mean, to the point that even some people that
422
00:22:21.089 --> 00:22:25.670
had outside investigators or whatever that had said it was
423
00:22:25.730 --> 00:22:28.660
a suicide have now said, we don't think it's a
424
00:22:28.670 --> 00:22:33.640
suicide either. And I think there's also just a lot
425
00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:40.009
of information that was never released because there was always this,
426
00:22:40.690 --> 00:22:43.009
you know, in the background of, well, let's hold back
427
00:22:43.049 --> 00:22:47.470
that information because we don't want to damage case, or
428
00:22:47.549 --> 00:22:51.289
we don't want to get ahead of ourselves, or we don't.
429
00:22:51.190 --> 00:22:53.529
Know if we're going to need this in a, you know,
430
00:22:53.549 --> 00:22:53.809
in the.
431
00:22:53.769 --> 00:22:58.410
Future for, you know, so there's always kind of this,
432
00:22:59.190 --> 00:23:02.730
there were certain things that we've known for years, but
433
00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:08.720
we've never talked about because again, I guess there's always
434
00:23:08.789 --> 00:23:11.549
just been that feeling that we needed to, there were
435
00:23:11.569 --> 00:23:15.069
certain things we needed to not make public. You know,
436
00:23:15.089 --> 00:23:18.650
I always had concerns about the coroner. People always pushed
437
00:23:18.690 --> 00:23:21.670
back because I always felt like he was a part of,
438
00:23:22.309 --> 00:23:26.269
I guess you'd say, the conspiracy. And I was probably
439
00:23:26.309 --> 00:23:28.769
the only person that thought he was, that he knew
440
00:23:28.829 --> 00:23:33.690
all along. And after his deposition and after two.
441
00:23:33.230 --> 00:23:35.190
Other people's deposition, I definitely.
442
00:23:36.349 --> 00:23:39.670
that he knew what was going on from before he
443
00:23:39.690 --> 00:23:41.049
probably ever arrived at the apartment.
444
00:23:42.430 --> 00:23:44.829
That's my, you know, that's my opinion.
445
00:23:45.349 --> 00:23:50.839
But there's always been a lot of discussion about rigor
446
00:23:50.950 --> 00:23:53.980
and the stage of rigor and all that. And so
447
00:23:54.579 --> 00:23:57.259
there were some things that came out in the depositions
448
00:23:57.539 --> 00:23:59.720
of people who were actually at the apartment that day
449
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:06.039
who all said, oh, he was in advanced stages, way
450
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:09.900
advanced stages of rigor. Actually, probably the coroner is the
451
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:14.950
only person who says that he was not. I mean,
452
00:24:14.970 --> 00:24:17.750
this has been discussed before, but something that was said
453
00:24:17.849 --> 00:24:22.650
by one of the EMTs in the deposition was they
454
00:24:22.670 --> 00:24:27.049
didn't understand why the coroner couldn't remember that he was
455
00:24:27.089 --> 00:24:30.069
in advanced stages of rigor because when they tried to
456
00:24:30.210 --> 00:24:34.259
put Christian in the body bag, because of his legs
457
00:24:34.299 --> 00:24:37.480
were curled, the fetal position type he was in, they
458
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:39.720
were not able to zip. It was very difficult to
459
00:24:39.779 --> 00:24:43.630
zip the body bag. And he said, you know, I
460
00:24:43.849 --> 00:24:48.309
don't understand why he doesn't remember us struggling to get
461
00:24:48.349 --> 00:24:49.269
it closed up.
462
00:24:50.009 --> 00:24:52.170
So that was a very vivid memory of his.
463
00:24:52.710 --> 00:24:55.390
And I just, you know, again, I just think there's
464
00:24:55.609 --> 00:24:57.750
a lot that could definitely be proved.
465
00:24:58.970 --> 00:25:01.970
So you mentioned like at some point you could foresee...
466
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:06.000
a lawsuit if the stars align, right? But I guess
467
00:25:06.019 --> 00:25:08.670
like beyond that, are you, do you think you'll put
468
00:25:08.690 --> 00:25:10.549
some of this stuff out there at some point in
469
00:25:10.589 --> 00:25:12.289
some way? Or like, do you plan to do anything
470
00:25:12.309 --> 00:25:12.670
with this?
471
00:25:13.730 --> 00:25:17.390
Oh, I plan on putting everything out there. One way
472
00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:17.869
or the other.
473
00:25:18.329 --> 00:25:20.950
Even if it means that I do a TikTok and
474
00:25:20.970 --> 00:25:24.319
I go on there myself and we go through step
475
00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:30.480
by step everything from phone records to, you know, everything.
476
00:25:31.339 --> 00:25:32.440
Then, I mean, everybody's going to know.
477
00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:35.119
I'm not going to just sit on this and say, okay,
478
00:25:35.559 --> 00:25:38.309
you know, we're going to put everything out there, you know, good, bad,
479
00:25:38.329 --> 00:25:38.730
and ugly.
480
00:25:39.789 --> 00:25:43.410
Who is handling Christian's case at this point? Like, you know,
481
00:25:43.450 --> 00:25:47.269
what's its status? Who's investigating it? Or is anybody, you know,
482
00:25:47.329 --> 00:25:48.430
where do things stand there?
483
00:25:49.509 --> 00:25:54.119
It's considered a closed case, and it's in the Attorney
484
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:59.180
General's hands. And so, Meridian Police Department say that they
485
00:25:59.220 --> 00:25:59.779
don't really.
486
00:26:00.630 --> 00:26:01.470
have, you know.
487
00:26:01.529 --> 00:26:04.529
Anything to do with it because the attorney general's office
488
00:26:04.569 --> 00:26:08.779
has it. The attorney general's office kind of says, well,
489
00:26:09.170 --> 00:26:11.680
we're not going to stop Meridian from investigating if they
490
00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:15.700
want to investigate. But they both use each other as
491
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:18.720
kind of pointing fingers at each other. Well, you know,
492
00:26:18.740 --> 00:26:21.180
we're not going to do anything, but you can do something.
493
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:25.779
Attorney general's office has always, well, I'll say always for
494
00:26:25.799 --> 00:26:29.319
the last, you know, whatever, few years, four years, said
495
00:26:29.400 --> 00:26:32.460
that there's a conflict of interest, and so they refused
496
00:26:32.500 --> 00:26:35.079
to do anything with it. They agreed it needed to
497
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:39.829
be a special prosecutor appointed. Really, everybody agreed that the
498
00:26:39.849 --> 00:26:42.890
case needed to be reopened or represented to a new
499
00:26:42.910 --> 00:26:43.650
grand jury.
500
00:26:43.710 --> 00:26:45.589
There needed to be a special prosecutor.
501
00:26:46.170 --> 00:26:49.430
When you say everybody, who all was on board with that?
502
00:26:50.730 --> 00:26:53.890
Well, there was a hearing in front of Judge Wright.
503
00:26:54.369 --> 00:26:58.559
It's probably been three years ago. And it may have
504
00:26:58.579 --> 00:27:01.819
been four, but I think it's probably been three. And
505
00:27:02.140 --> 00:27:06.630
Cassie recused herself, the DA. She recused her office during
506
00:27:06.670 --> 00:27:11.869
that hearing. She acknowledged that there was information that was
507
00:27:11.950 --> 00:27:15.009
not presented to the grand jury. She acknowledged, you know,
508
00:27:15.029 --> 00:27:17.450
kind of 48 hours, kind of cold busted her on that.
509
00:27:18.170 --> 00:27:20.660
And she said that she agreed that there should be
510
00:27:20.700 --> 00:27:24.950
a special prosecutor appointed and that it be represented. We
511
00:27:25.069 --> 00:27:29.309
also had a representative from the attorney general's office there,
512
00:27:30.150 --> 00:27:35.289
an attorney, and she had said that their office was
513
00:27:35.349 --> 00:27:38.890
not going to get involved because there was a conflict
514
00:27:38.910 --> 00:27:42.150
of interest because Bilbo was now working at their office
515
00:27:42.980 --> 00:27:48.980
on a part-time basis as a prosecutor. And so they agreed,
516
00:27:49.019 --> 00:27:52.380
and it's all in court documents, that there was new
517
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:57.529
information and that they also supported a special prosecutor being
518
00:27:57.589 --> 00:28:02.390
appointed and it going back before a new grand jury. So,
519
00:28:02.589 --> 00:28:05.990
you know, you had both agencies saying, oh, yeah, we agree.
520
00:28:07.210 --> 00:28:10.609
But I don't know whether they did it intentionally or
521
00:28:10.670 --> 00:28:14.410
it was just their luck that that it's almost like
522
00:28:14.430 --> 00:28:17.829
they've boxed me in now because you have the two
523
00:28:17.970 --> 00:28:21.289
agencies that are the ones who one or the other
524
00:28:21.349 --> 00:28:23.619
should be doing it, but both of them are saying, well,
525
00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:26.660
you know, Cassie's in, oh, my office is recused. You know,
526
00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:30.339
so there is, I mean, actually the county attorney, without
527
00:28:30.420 --> 00:28:36.019
being appointed, could take it to the grand jury because
528
00:28:36.220 --> 00:28:40.609
by statute, Mississippi statute, the county attorney has that authority
529
00:28:40.690 --> 00:28:43.869
to do that. And, you know, and we've spoken to him,
530
00:28:44.430 --> 00:28:47.369
very nice guy, and I don't blame him. But he
531
00:28:47.390 --> 00:28:51.450
just said, you know, I understand that legally I could
532
00:28:51.490 --> 00:28:56.420
do this, but it never is done. And if I
533
00:28:57.140 --> 00:29:00.960
kick this case to do, you know, basically he'd get
534
00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:03.940
a lot of pushback. from people who are saying, oh,
535
00:29:04.579 --> 00:29:09.180
you're playing favoritism or you're taking their side or you're whatever. So,
536
00:29:10.140 --> 00:29:14.400
you know, he won't utilize that statutory right, basically.
537
00:29:14.420 --> 00:29:15.359
That's tough.
538
00:29:16.109 --> 00:29:17.410
So we're back to.
539
00:29:17.849 --> 00:29:22.089
As much as, you know, I don't like really doing media.
540
00:29:22.109 --> 00:29:22.269
Yeah.
541
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:28.099
We're back to, you know, doing like really pushing for
542
00:29:28.119 --> 00:29:31.279
a documentary because it's, you know, you have, I have
543
00:29:31.319 --> 00:29:34.630
found basically two avenues when law enforcement won't do what
544
00:29:34.650 --> 00:29:36.990
they're supposed to do or the DA or the attorney general.
545
00:29:37.490 --> 00:29:41.619
You bring bad press to them and put pressure on them,
546
00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:44.720
or you do the civil route, you know, civil suits.
547
00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:47.549
And we've done the civil suit route, and now we've
548
00:29:47.589 --> 00:29:50.769
kind of exhausted that. So now we're back to being
549
00:29:50.809 --> 00:29:53.349
very focused on getting a documentary done.
550
00:29:53.369 --> 00:29:55.950
Awesome. Well, that was going to be my next question, actually,
551
00:29:55.990 --> 00:29:59.940
is like where... What are all your next steps right now?
552
00:29:59.960 --> 00:30:00.759
What are you working on?
553
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:08.269
So Victoria, my niece, is an attorney now. So I've
554
00:30:08.309 --> 00:30:12.769
hired her the firm she works for. They're working on
555
00:30:12.809 --> 00:30:16.470
an angle that actually came out in the deposition that
556
00:30:16.509 --> 00:30:20.380
has to do with Christian's case. They're working on getting
557
00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:25.410
something changed. So hopefully in the near future, We'll have
558
00:30:25.569 --> 00:30:27.970
some answers about that and, you know, have more information.
559
00:30:27.990 --> 00:30:30.990
And Victoria's the one who shared his case with us.
560
00:30:31.019 --> 00:30:35.400
Right, right. Yeah, I had sent Victoria to CrimeCon because
561
00:30:35.420 --> 00:30:38.140
I was talking about doing this podcast. And I was like,
562
00:30:38.180 --> 00:30:39.960
I'm going to pay for you to go to CrimeCon
563
00:30:39.980 --> 00:30:42.400
and just go and talk to some people and make
564
00:30:42.420 --> 00:30:45.779
some contacts. And so that was her reason for being there.
565
00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:49.539
So she's now an attorney and it's doing very well.
566
00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:50.500
That's awesome.
567
00:30:50.859 --> 00:30:52.440
But they're working on that.
568
00:30:52.900 --> 00:30:57.019
I've been under contract to do a documentary, I guess
569
00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:59.609
you'd kind of say one and a half times. One time,
570
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:01.869
and then I kind of backed out of that one
571
00:31:01.970 --> 00:31:04.269
after the contract period was up because I didn't really
572
00:31:04.309 --> 00:31:07.630
like the direction that they were trying to go. And
573
00:31:07.710 --> 00:31:11.230
then the other time, I just never actually signed a
574
00:31:11.269 --> 00:31:14.690
contract because I didn't like the terms. You know, I
575
00:31:14.730 --> 00:31:18.519
think that Christian's actual contract case and his story has
576
00:31:18.579 --> 00:31:21.920
been told by so many people, but because of the
577
00:31:22.460 --> 00:31:26.079
time frame that has gone on and, you know, things
578
00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:30.200
have continued to happen over the last 11 years, a
579
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:32.490
lot of people will think that this is a retelling
580
00:31:32.829 --> 00:31:36.150
of Christian's case, but it really isn't. You know, I
581
00:31:36.190 --> 00:31:40.329
think the documentary needs to focus also on all the
582
00:31:40.430 --> 00:31:45.890
overarching things, you I don't want Christian to get lost.
583
00:31:46.009 --> 00:31:48.970
And obviously, he would be the focus and everything we
584
00:31:48.990 --> 00:31:52.160
do is directed toward trying to get his case back
585
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:54.660
in front of a grand jury. But I think that
586
00:31:54.700 --> 00:31:56.859
the way to do that is going to be to
587
00:31:56.900 --> 00:32:00.160
shine more light on the actions of the people who
588
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:03.640
have the authority to, I mean, it'd be very easy.
589
00:32:04.009 --> 00:32:07.410
I've always said, why are they fighting so hard to
590
00:32:07.470 --> 00:32:11.049
keep this from going to another grand jury or fighting
591
00:32:11.109 --> 00:32:14.660
so hard to keep this case a suicide case? They
592
00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:18.019
shouldn't worry about that I have enough information to show
593
00:32:18.099 --> 00:32:21.380
it's not. But it's so much more going on behind
594
00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:24.400
the scenes than just, you know, this is a suicide
595
00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:25.259
or not a suicide.
596
00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:30.630
Right. So it's more just about more about how the
597
00:32:30.650 --> 00:32:34.690
mishandling of it all and lying in depositions or whatever
598
00:32:34.730 --> 00:32:36.630
it might be. And that was why I wanted to
599
00:32:36.670 --> 00:32:38.509
catch up with you is because I know that stuff
600
00:32:38.529 --> 00:32:40.890
has happened since. And quite frankly, I haven't really been
601
00:32:40.910 --> 00:32:44.359
very much in the loop on that. you've probably even
602
00:32:44.380 --> 00:32:46.960
gathered even more evidence and there's even more stuff to
603
00:32:47.019 --> 00:32:49.420
show and share with the world now. So I hope
604
00:32:49.460 --> 00:32:53.470
something works out there. I totally understand the concern of
605
00:32:54.069 --> 00:32:58.289
the narrative and struggling to trust somebody. And maybe that's
606
00:32:58.329 --> 00:33:00.930
really all it is, is you just need somebody that
607
00:33:00.950 --> 00:33:02.569
you can trust. Because I mean, I think about the
608
00:33:02.589 --> 00:33:06.509
podcast and it's like, again, we didn't, back to the beginning,
609
00:33:06.529 --> 00:33:08.809
we didn't know what the heck we were doing. But
610
00:33:08.849 --> 00:33:11.329
it's like, You know, for whatever reason, you reached a
611
00:33:11.349 --> 00:33:15.910
point where you felt comfortable letting us run with the story. So,
612
00:33:16.609 --> 00:33:18.490
you know, hopefully you just need that person to come along.
613
00:33:19.529 --> 00:33:23.119
I think that people think, and I mean, and if
614
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:25.200
I had not done this before, I would think the
615
00:33:25.220 --> 00:33:28.140
same thing. They think that the family, you know, they're
616
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:31.680
controlling what is said. They're, you know, and even with y'all,
617
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:35.880
I mean, I can remember, like I said, every episode
618
00:33:35.900 --> 00:33:39.849
that would come out, we didn't usually know. And so
619
00:33:40.029 --> 00:33:43.849
there was always that concern that, you know, something would
620
00:33:43.890 --> 00:33:47.490
be portrayed as not the way we thought it should
621
00:33:47.529 --> 00:33:50.509
be portrayed. And, you know, there were times I got
622
00:33:50.529 --> 00:33:52.650
a little upset with you because it'd be like, you know,
623
00:33:52.710 --> 00:33:54.839
they should have put this in or they should have.
624
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:57.039
So to think that, I mean, I think that you
625
00:33:57.059 --> 00:34:02.279
were very fair because you didn't 100% do and say
626
00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:05.240
things that I wanted you to do and say by far. But,
627
00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:07.809
I mean, I'm glad that, you know, you did present
628
00:34:07.849 --> 00:34:10.849
it in a fair and it wasn't just, oh, this
629
00:34:10.909 --> 00:34:14.210
is the Andrea Akio's podcast. I mean, it was that,
630
00:34:14.349 --> 00:34:17.630
you know, it was totally y'all's control as far as
631
00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:21.219
what the content would be, you know, and all the
632
00:34:21.300 --> 00:34:24.679
other things that we've done, you know, 48 hours and
633
00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:29.380
Crime Watch Daily, especially 48 hours. I mean, you really
634
00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:33.099
are on pins and needles because you don't.
635
00:34:32.940 --> 00:34:34.239
Know what direction.
636
00:34:34.260 --> 00:34:36.739
I mean, I hit the roof when I found out
637
00:34:36.860 --> 00:34:41.929
that they, you know, had interviewed Whitley and Dillon and
638
00:34:41.969 --> 00:34:45.409
was going to include that because My thing is, if
639
00:34:45.429 --> 00:34:47.929
they're not going to answer questions, why would you give
640
00:34:47.969 --> 00:34:48.769
them airtime?
641
00:34:49.809 --> 00:34:52.409
And I sent a very ugly.
642
00:34:52.070 --> 00:34:57.909
Email to the producer of 48 Hours, which I'm sure
643
00:34:57.949 --> 00:35:01.190
he gets a lot from families that they do similar
644
00:35:01.250 --> 00:35:06.420
things to. So I think his response was, I'm sorry
645
00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:09.139
you feel that way, but I think that you'll be
646
00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:10.900
okay once you see the episode.
647
00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:13.199
And so, you know, then after— Okay, so it was
648
00:35:13.219 --> 00:35:15.849
before you saw it then. Oh, well, I never did
649
00:35:15.889 --> 00:35:19.210
watch it, but— Oh, really? No, I've never watched it, but,
650
00:35:19.809 --> 00:35:22.530
you know— I get that. But, like, the people that.
651
00:35:22.610 --> 00:35:27.559
Like I said, we've become friends with, like, through Coupleple, really, through,
652
00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:30.820
you know, the different Facebook groups and all, and Sleuth
653
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:35.329
Syndicate was very— you know, gracious and very good about
654
00:35:35.389 --> 00:35:38.909
covering Christian's case and kind of covered along with y'all
655
00:35:39.150 --> 00:35:41.269
as an episode came out. You know, they kind of
656
00:35:41.309 --> 00:35:45.610
then would do the analysis, I guess you'd say. And
657
00:35:45.650 --> 00:35:49.269
then as things happened and, you know, becoming friends with
658
00:35:49.309 --> 00:35:52.369
people from all over the United States that, you know,
659
00:35:52.389 --> 00:35:55.170
you would have never met, never connected without.
660
00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:55.610
Probably a couple.
661
00:35:56.389 --> 00:36:00.519
And a group of us all got together and went
662
00:36:00.539 --> 00:36:05.510
to Florida on Friday. the anniversary of Christian's death. So,
663
00:36:05.769 --> 00:36:10.289
you know, they're friends outside of Christian's case, and they've
664
00:36:10.610 --> 00:36:14.269
been very supportive in all areas. People who have become
665
00:36:15.030 --> 00:36:17.679
lifelong friends that we would have never met.
666
00:36:18.219 --> 00:36:23.559
That's really cool. I'm glad you found them and have that.
667
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:26.900
I mean, that's definitely not something I would have expected
668
00:36:26.940 --> 00:36:28.920
to come of this. I mean, it makes sense now
669
00:36:28.980 --> 00:36:32.070
in hindsight, but you don't think about those things. And
670
00:36:32.090 --> 00:36:35.199
that's funny what you said too, just about like the
671
00:36:35.300 --> 00:36:38.320
idea of like controlling the narrative, which I can understand
672
00:36:38.380 --> 00:36:40.860
why people could see it that way. Because I mean,
673
00:36:41.639 --> 00:36:43.079
we did build a really, I mean, we had a
674
00:36:43.099 --> 00:36:50.099
close relationship, but no, I couldn't, can't let you control that, obviously.
675
00:36:50.539 --> 00:36:52.719
But I'm glad we did right or else you probably
676
00:36:52.739 --> 00:36:54.159
wouldn't be talking to me right now, right?
677
00:36:54.300 --> 00:36:55.050
Yeah.
678
00:36:56.969 --> 00:36:59.150
So yeah, you just got to find the right person
679
00:36:59.170 --> 00:37:01.690
to come along. There's a story there worth telling and
680
00:37:02.449 --> 00:37:04.829
I mean, I know a little bit about like what
681
00:37:04.849 --> 00:37:07.389
some of the lawsuits entailed and you've hinted at now,
682
00:37:07.590 --> 00:37:09.929
of course, kind of how this angle has shifted, which
683
00:37:09.969 --> 00:37:13.110
really you've probably seen it that way as far as
684
00:37:13.409 --> 00:37:16.840
I guess conspiracy goes for a long time now. But
685
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:19.539
in some ways that actually had already started to kind
686
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:21.579
of rear its head when culpable was out with how
687
00:37:21.619 --> 00:37:24.360
things shifted at the end between maybe I don't know
688
00:37:24.380 --> 00:37:27.480
when it started. Maybe it started with like the release
689
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:30.659
of the autopsy photos and, you know, these hate groups
690
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:33.420
and stuff. But then there was like the closed door
691
00:37:33.460 --> 00:37:36.920
meeting that happened with all the officials that went out
692
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:39.119
there and some of what was said in there. And
693
00:37:39.139 --> 00:37:42.650
then the stuff about Arrington came up. Of course, he
694
00:37:42.690 --> 00:37:45.329
goes on 48 hours and then that cat was let
695
00:37:45.349 --> 00:37:47.329
out of the bag too. So in some ways, some
696
00:37:47.349 --> 00:37:50.090
of that stuff was already kind of rearing its head.
697
00:37:50.110 --> 00:37:53.550
Had we released it a year later, maybe we would
698
00:37:53.570 --> 00:37:57.380
have been telling a lot of that stuff, obviously. So yeah,
699
00:37:57.400 --> 00:37:58.599
I hope you're able to work something out there.
700
00:38:10.949 --> 00:38:13.449
I will say that, I guess, going back to the
701
00:38:13.510 --> 00:38:17.369
thing of when you asked what some advice to give and,
702
00:38:17.860 --> 00:38:21.260
of course, the documenting and the recording. But I also
703
00:38:21.340 --> 00:38:25.800
think just to trust your gut, you know, your instincts. Because,
704
00:38:25.820 --> 00:38:30.480
you know, things that I thought within the first two weeks,
705
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:36.219
four weeks... Now, 11 years later, it's really coming back
706
00:38:36.260 --> 00:38:38.480
full circle. And it's like, you know, I was kind
707
00:38:38.500 --> 00:38:41.920
of right at the very beginning. I do kick myself, though,
708
00:38:41.960 --> 00:38:46.659
because I think within the first hour, you know, I
709
00:38:46.699 --> 00:38:50.219
knew to call Chris and tell Chris, get his cell
710
00:38:50.260 --> 00:38:53.550
phone and get his keys. Make sure she doesn't get
711
00:38:53.570 --> 00:38:56.769
anything out of the apartment. but I didn't have the
712
00:38:56.849 --> 00:39:02.159
instinct to document and record and all. I guess, again,
713
00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:06.599
it comes down to that ingrained belief that law enforcement
714
00:39:06.619 --> 00:39:10.360
will do right, you know, that justice will prevail, and
715
00:39:10.469 --> 00:39:11.909
it just doesn't work that way.
716
00:39:14.210 --> 00:39:16.030
I forgot about that with the cell phone. I think
717
00:39:16.050 --> 00:39:18.789
that maybe comes out in the second or third episode,
718
00:39:18.829 --> 00:39:22.739
but I mean, yeah, talk about trusting your gut. I mean,
719
00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:25.400
it's crazy that you even thought of that in that moment.
720
00:39:25.739 --> 00:39:29.739
I guess that's what is knowing that, you know, you're
721
00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:34.059
in shock and you're grieving, but you're in shock really
722
00:39:34.099 --> 00:39:37.769
more than anything. And I can just remember immediately like
723
00:39:37.809 --> 00:39:39.949
going into my closet. Don't know if I went into
724
00:39:39.989 --> 00:39:43.510
my closet and calling Chris and saying, get down to
725
00:39:43.550 --> 00:39:45.949
the apartment and get his phone and get his keys.
726
00:39:46.349 --> 00:39:47.809
She's going to try to take his phone and she's
727
00:39:47.829 --> 00:39:50.769
going to try and take his keys. And she did.
728
00:39:50.809 --> 00:39:55.260
Wow, that's crazy. I forgot all about that. Yeah, that's
729
00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:57.659
good gut instinct. I vouch for that. I mean, that's
730
00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:00.880
always advice I give too as far as trusting your gut.
731
00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:06.440
It sounds so cliche or sort of meaningless, but I
732
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:10.039
live by that often. Actually, it's sort of ironic. I
733
00:40:10.059 --> 00:40:13.739
was just talking about that where I re-listened to the
734
00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:19.199
first episode and gave some commentary. I talked about that because...
735
00:40:19.630 --> 00:40:24.050
In some ways, that point was driven home by audio
736
00:40:24.090 --> 00:40:28.030
I use in the podcast of, which you might have
737
00:40:28.070 --> 00:40:31.659
never watched it, obviously, but I use audio from the
738
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:35.440
pastor at his funeral. And that was the title, wasn't
739
00:40:35.460 --> 00:40:37.599
Trust Your Gut, but the title of the episode became
740
00:40:37.699 --> 00:40:39.840
Trust the Process because it was something he said in
741
00:40:39.900 --> 00:40:43.599
there and how this isn't supposed to have happened this way.
742
00:40:44.539 --> 00:40:48.329
It's tragic that it did. You don't have answers. You
743
00:40:48.349 --> 00:40:51.190
need to piece it together. And the way you do
744
00:40:51.250 --> 00:40:53.849
that is just one step at a time and just
745
00:40:53.889 --> 00:40:56.090
kind of trust the process, which to me translated in
746
00:40:56.409 --> 00:40:59.179
some ways is like kind of trust your gut. And yeah,
747
00:40:59.219 --> 00:41:02.000
I'm a firm believer in that piece of advice for sure.
748
00:41:02.019 --> 00:41:04.900
Well, and I think that when you called me and
749
00:41:04.940 --> 00:41:08.519
said that you had kind of had this idea to
750
00:41:08.539 --> 00:41:11.170
go back and listen. I mean, I'll probably listen to
751
00:41:11.190 --> 00:41:13.750
this because I'd like to know some of the things
752
00:41:13.789 --> 00:41:16.630
that was going through y'all's head because we did never
753
00:41:16.670 --> 00:41:19.139
talk about that. Like even when we had conversations, it's
754
00:41:19.179 --> 00:41:21.519
not like, you know, we had the conversations where you
755
00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:25.980
were telling me like maybe difficulties y'all were having in
756
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:29.699
the background or, you know, behind the scenes or. you know,
757
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:32.389
arguments or things that y'all might've had over what should
758
00:41:32.409 --> 00:41:32.849
go in.
759
00:41:32.769 --> 00:41:33.730
And what should go out.
760
00:41:33.769 --> 00:41:35.650
I mean, I think all that is kind of interesting
761
00:41:35.690 --> 00:41:38.449
in the making of the, you know, and trying to
762
00:41:38.489 --> 00:41:42.739
put out something like you said, that's, you know, fair, unbiased,
763
00:41:42.989 --> 00:41:48.300
but also is compelling and everything. But, uh, I was
764
00:41:48.340 --> 00:41:50.860
kind of interested in that because I know that I
765
00:41:50.900 --> 00:41:53.039
had my things. Like I said, where I would fuss.
766
00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:55.579
I mean, they didn't put that in. And I should
767
00:41:55.599 --> 00:41:59.460
have been in there. Or, you know, something bad would happen.
768
00:41:59.619 --> 00:42:03.340
And I remember you, it was after like a lot
769
00:42:03.380 --> 00:42:05.719
of the negative, I can't remember exactly what event it was,
770
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:09.699
but something negative had happened there. And you had called
771
00:42:09.780 --> 00:42:12.829
me or text some we had some type of communication
772
00:42:12.849 --> 00:42:16.469
and you had said something about basically that you were
773
00:42:17.050 --> 00:42:19.989
probably didn't say it in this way, but basically that
774
00:42:20.010 --> 00:42:22.730
you were stressed out over all the you know, you
775
00:42:22.769 --> 00:42:28.050
didn't expect this bunch of kind of pushback from the
776
00:42:28.090 --> 00:42:31.840
different people. And I can remember telling, like, fussing and
777
00:42:31.860 --> 00:42:34.849
telling Todd, I mean, he's in Kentucky and we're in.
778
00:42:34.829 --> 00:42:38.829
Mississippi right here. And he's talking about being stressed out.
779
00:42:40.650 --> 00:42:44.590
So there's a lot of, you know, there's probably a
780
00:42:44.630 --> 00:42:47.050
lot of little now that was funny. You know, at
781
00:42:47.090 --> 00:42:51.199
the time it was not funny. But I think that
782
00:42:51.239 --> 00:42:55.139
a lot of that is probably some little backstories, you know.
783
00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:59.900
For sure. I can imagine, like, you know. of course
784
00:42:59.940 --> 00:43:02.719
I got other projects and things to tend to. So
785
00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:04.900
it's like, I tried to get, I really did try
786
00:43:04.940 --> 00:43:07.699
to like really focus in and really get like kind
787
00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:10.969
of lost in it and recall my memory as best
788
00:43:11.030 --> 00:43:13.110
as possible. But it's also a reminder in that of
789
00:43:13.150 --> 00:43:15.489
just like how hard it can be to kind of
790
00:43:15.630 --> 00:43:20.070
remember things the more time passes, because I mean, you've
791
00:43:20.110 --> 00:43:22.900
mentioned things on this call, like, like that and phone
792
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:25.280
calls we had and stuff that didn't even come to
793
00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:28.949
mind as far as like some of the, uh, the,
794
00:43:29.030 --> 00:43:31.289
what do you want to call it? Some turmoil between
795
00:43:31.369 --> 00:43:33.769
us along the way as well. Like, you know, that
796
00:43:33.789 --> 00:43:35.769
stuff didn't come out in the podcast and didn't even
797
00:43:35.809 --> 00:43:38.500
come out in my reflection on it in the episode
798
00:43:38.519 --> 00:43:40.239
I made the other day. Cause it just really didn't,
799
00:43:40.820 --> 00:43:43.340
nothing really stirred that thought in my mind, I guess.
800
00:43:43.420 --> 00:43:47.039
But like, yeah, I mean, it was, uh, like I said,
801
00:43:47.059 --> 00:43:48.920
a while ago in this call, it was a bumpy
802
00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:52.469
road on, in, in many, many, many ways that probably
803
00:43:52.510 --> 00:43:55.469
no one could really expect, but it was, I, I
804
00:43:55.510 --> 00:44:00.400
wasn't bluffing. It was stressful time, wasn't it? You're right.
805
00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:02.340
I was on a little island on my own over here.
806
00:44:02.380 --> 00:44:03.489
It was a little bit better there.
807
00:44:03.510 --> 00:44:05.949
I would always say I know that I was a
808
00:44:05.989 --> 00:44:11.309
lot to take. I've always said that, especially with this
809
00:44:11.909 --> 00:44:16.030
subject matter. And so I know there were times when
810
00:44:16.590 --> 00:44:21.380
I was... probably whether it was unfair or whatever. But
811
00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:25.699
in that moment, I was like in protection mode, whether
812
00:44:25.739 --> 00:44:28.739
that was protection of my other kids or protection of
813
00:44:28.820 --> 00:44:32.670
Christian or whatever. But yeah, there were some, yeah, we
814
00:44:32.710 --> 00:44:35.409
had some. I was trying to remember what it was.
815
00:44:35.769 --> 00:44:39.199
There was definitely a time for sure. I can't remember
816
00:44:39.219 --> 00:44:41.119
it exactly, but there was definitely a time where I
817
00:44:41.119 --> 00:44:43.179
was like, Oh yeah. Yeah. Right.
818
00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:43.980
He's getting a little.
819
00:44:44.820 --> 00:44:47.639
Writing me off. Like I might not talk to her again.
820
00:44:47.699 --> 00:44:48.239
Seriously.
821
00:44:48.280 --> 00:44:50.250
Like that. I had, I remember having that thought. I
822
00:44:50.250 --> 00:44:53.070
just can't remember what caused that. Like, what was the,
823
00:44:53.190 --> 00:44:55.349
what was the stir up there? But yeah, I mean,
824
00:44:55.369 --> 00:44:56.010
we didn't.
825
00:44:56.449 --> 00:44:57.989
Necessarily always get along.
826
00:44:58.070 --> 00:45:00.880
Yeah. No, not, not at all. And like, I get it.
827
00:45:01.090 --> 00:45:03.789
You're in a hard position where you got to just
828
00:45:04.369 --> 00:45:08.269
trust somebody a hundred percent who can't really tell you things. And,
829
00:45:08.309 --> 00:45:11.000
you know, it doesn't probably help that you're didn't really
830
00:45:11.019 --> 00:45:14.530
feel comfortable enough listening to it. So you're also just
831
00:45:14.570 --> 00:45:16.969
kind of like getting bits and pieces from different things
832
00:45:17.030 --> 00:45:19.409
and just trying to like, it's like playing telephone. Like
833
00:45:19.449 --> 00:45:21.679
you probably weren't, you probably were imagining some things that
834
00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:26.809
maybe weren't even in there, you know? And so it's like, that's, yeah, that's, that's, Stressful,
835
00:45:26.969 --> 00:45:29.170
for sure. I totally get that.
836
00:45:29.389 --> 00:45:31.289
Well, now that you know that I didn't watch all
837
00:45:31.329 --> 00:45:32.989
of it, yeah, I didn't listen to all of it, yeah.
838
00:45:33.030 --> 00:45:35.949
So I'm reacting to, you know, Renee or Susan or
839
00:45:35.989 --> 00:45:40.519
somebody going, oh, well, they said. I'd be like, I
840
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:44.840
can't believe they put that in there or whatever. But no,
841
00:45:45.260 --> 00:45:47.739
I'll have to go back and I think I may
842
00:45:47.780 --> 00:45:50.860
have sent you one of my infamous ugly emails.
843
00:45:51.500 --> 00:45:53.489
You probably did. I do think I got at least
844
00:45:53.570 --> 00:45:55.329
one of those along the way, for sure.
845
00:45:55.389 --> 00:45:55.969
Yeah.
846
00:45:56.800 --> 00:45:59.559
Well, one thing about me is I blow up and
847
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:02.320
then I usually, after a while, will come back around
848
00:46:02.360 --> 00:46:04.409
and think, you know, I was probably being a little unreasonable.
849
00:46:04.730 --> 00:46:07.170
Or I'll say, well, you know, it really wasn't that
850
00:46:07.190 --> 00:46:10.030
big of a deal now. You know, when this happened
851
00:46:10.050 --> 00:46:14.329
with Christian, I became a very controlling person when it
852
00:46:14.349 --> 00:46:17.469
came to as much as I could. You know, so
853
00:46:17.610 --> 00:46:19.590
I think in all aspects of my life, I became
854
00:46:19.639 --> 00:46:21.599
very controlling because you feel like, you know, if I
855
00:46:21.619 --> 00:46:23.860
can control things and bad things won't happen.
856
00:46:24.739 --> 00:46:26.940
It definitely impacts you.
857
00:46:27.480 --> 00:46:29.619
You know, in all areas of your life. It's not
858
00:46:29.719 --> 00:46:32.340
just I mean, I'm not talking about the podcast, just
859
00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:35.039
going through what we've gone through. It's like you said,
860
00:46:35.079 --> 00:46:39.360
a ripple effect. And so it kind of it changes
861
00:46:39.409 --> 00:46:43.809
your personality. It changes your relationships with people and people
862
00:46:43.869 --> 00:46:45.329
who can navigate this process.
863
00:46:45.389 --> 00:46:49.059
And if not, then, you know, they're great people. I'll
864
00:46:49.099 --> 00:46:49.659
be the very.
865
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:52.719
First person to say that it definitely has made me
866
00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:56.880
very cynical, made me very untrusting, and made me very controlling.
867
00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:02.000
Well, at least you haven't aged a bit, so that's good.
868
00:47:02.059 --> 00:47:02.980
At least I didn't do that.
869
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:06.539
Okay, you got your brownie points, Dennis.
870
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:13.960
No, seriously though, I'm thankful that we're still able to
871
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:17.360
talk to this day and that you're still entrusting me
872
00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:20.760
with this to some extent. And I appreciate this because
873
00:47:20.780 --> 00:47:25.199
this was a very transformative experience for me too. And
874
00:47:25.219 --> 00:47:28.860
that's both in a good and bad way. I got
875
00:47:28.900 --> 00:47:30.639
into therapy for the first time ever in my life
876
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:32.690
on the tail end of this podcast.
877
00:47:33.050 --> 00:47:34.809
We drove you in and sorry, Dennis.
878
00:47:35.210 --> 00:47:37.849
No, it wasn't you. Because again, we really weren't like,
879
00:47:38.590 --> 00:47:40.369
in cahoots like that, you know what I mean? Like
880
00:47:40.429 --> 00:47:43.010
it wasn't, it was just, um, it was just a lot.
881
00:47:43.050 --> 00:47:44.699
I think more than anything, it was just the change
882
00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:47.280
of career and the pace of it all. If you remember,
883
00:47:47.340 --> 00:47:51.039
I was, I was still, um, working for, for Mark
884
00:47:51.059 --> 00:47:53.460
at the time, you know, and, and telecom. So like
885
00:47:53.539 --> 00:47:57.440
I was, this was more of a side thing and
886
00:47:57.460 --> 00:48:00.260
I've always just been a person, you know, especially cause
887
00:48:00.460 --> 00:48:02.130
Courtney and I had kids at such, you know, a
888
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:04.210
young age. Like I've always been a person of just like,
889
00:48:04.730 --> 00:48:06.469
you go clock in to your nine to five and
890
00:48:06.489 --> 00:48:09.159
then I clock out and, put my phone on silent
891
00:48:09.179 --> 00:48:11.659
and I'm just present for that little stretch that we
892
00:48:11.699 --> 00:48:14.440
have in the evening type of thing. And so this was,
893
00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:17.860
I wanted to take this opportunity. We were all in
894
00:48:17.900 --> 00:48:20.050
on that together, but still like it was, it was
895
00:48:20.170 --> 00:48:23.650
quite an adjustment, you know, that stuff slowly piles up.
896
00:48:24.090 --> 00:48:25.989
But like I said, on the plus side, it's also
897
00:48:26.030 --> 00:48:28.630
allowed me to continue to do this work that I
898
00:48:28.650 --> 00:48:33.909
didn't expect to do. So, so I'm forever grateful for
899
00:48:33.949 --> 00:48:36.840
that opportunity. I mean, it really does. Like, it sounds weird,
900
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:40.670
but like, Christian's story changed my life. So, yeah, I'll
901
00:48:40.690 --> 00:48:41.570
never take that for granted.
902
00:48:42.369 --> 00:48:45.670
Well, I think that you did put a lot of
903
00:48:45.909 --> 00:48:50.070
pressure on yourself, too. I mean, you almost could see
904
00:48:50.110 --> 00:48:54.480
you getting run down, which, I mean, again, shows your character.
905
00:48:55.039 --> 00:48:59.300
You put a lot of pressure on yourself for everything
906
00:48:59.340 --> 00:49:02.199
to be right, to do right by Christian, but also
907
00:49:02.260 --> 00:49:02.659
be fair.
908
00:49:04.460 --> 00:49:05.920
But most people would not have done that.
909
00:49:06.610 --> 00:49:09.219
They would have gone in, put some stuff together, gone
910
00:49:09.260 --> 00:49:10.219
home and forgot about it.
911
00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:11.360
But I think you took it home.
912
00:49:12.159 --> 00:49:15.989
Yeah, it was a lot. I mean, you're right. Definitely
913
00:49:16.010 --> 00:49:17.650
a lot of it is just putting too much pressure
914
00:49:17.670 --> 00:49:19.969
on myself. But a lot of that's like, again, just
915
00:49:20.579 --> 00:49:23.940
not really being an overly confident person and you know
916
00:49:23.960 --> 00:49:26.780
i've always just been a people pleaser and don't don't
917
00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:31.059
really prefer to engage in conflict and and everything became
918
00:49:31.659 --> 00:49:35.780
so polarizing It wasn't even necessarily like, sure, I had
919
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:39.239
direct messages to me and stuff being said about me
920
00:49:39.300 --> 00:49:42.429
and this and that. But it was honestly less about,
921
00:49:43.159 --> 00:49:44.969
I think it was less that that weighed me down
922
00:49:45.050 --> 00:49:48.309
and more just seeing, worrying about you all. Like you said,
923
00:49:48.329 --> 00:49:50.809
you're all over there in it, right? I think very
924
00:49:50.849 --> 00:49:52.869
much had a target on you in a lot of ways, right?
925
00:49:52.909 --> 00:49:55.210
And so, I think a lot of it was just
926
00:49:55.849 --> 00:49:59.090
building these relationships and worrying about you and just thinking
927
00:49:59.130 --> 00:50:04.119
about everybody's fighting, it seems like, and everything's so polarizing.
928
00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:06.429
And I didn't really expect that. And then, you know, I,
929
00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:10.260
of course, feel some culpability in that and putting it
930
00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:12.619
out there and sort of, I guess, stirring that pot,
931
00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:14.780
though obviously that was not my intention as that's not
932
00:50:14.820 --> 00:50:17.260
something I like to do. And so, yeah, it was just,
933
00:50:18.179 --> 00:50:21.139
I entered into something that wasn't really up my alley
934
00:50:21.159 --> 00:50:22.949
in a lot of ways in terms of like what
935
00:50:22.989 --> 00:50:25.349
it turned into and stuff and putting myself out there
936
00:50:25.369 --> 00:50:28.050
in that kind of way. But then, you know, to
937
00:50:28.090 --> 00:50:30.969
look at it on the flip side, I do enjoy
938
00:50:31.349 --> 00:50:33.769
doing it now and I've come a long way in that.
939
00:50:33.789 --> 00:50:35.230
And I'd like to think I put less pressure on
940
00:50:35.510 --> 00:50:39.170
myself probably even now too. So yeah, it's quite a
941
00:50:39.210 --> 00:50:42.880
journey for sure. And I guess still is, it continues.
942
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:46.659
I'll always, um, remain in touch with you and, you know,
943
00:50:46.679 --> 00:50:49.739
I hope, I hope you're able to work something out with, um,
944
00:50:50.380 --> 00:50:54.900
Victoria and the work she's doing and also, um, you know,
945
00:50:54.920 --> 00:50:57.780
the possibility of a documentary and stuff and, you know,
946
00:50:57.820 --> 00:51:00.599
I'm obviously always here too. If you ever want to
947
00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:05.119
connect or put anything else out there, share information. I'm
948
00:51:05.940 --> 00:51:08.340
like you said, the lawsuits kind of made it weird
949
00:51:08.380 --> 00:51:10.550
to where like we couldn't really be in communication and
950
00:51:10.670 --> 00:51:12.889
really talk about things. So you and I've really like
951
00:51:12.909 --> 00:51:14.949
in a lot of ways fallen out of the loop
952
00:51:14.989 --> 00:51:17.170
quite a bit over the past couple of years. Um,
953
00:51:17.530 --> 00:51:21.409
so it really has been wonderful catching up with you
954
00:51:22.150 --> 00:51:24.909
and seeing you and, you know, I love y'all. I
955
00:51:24.929 --> 00:51:28.059
think about you all the time and, um, stay strong,
956
00:51:28.219 --> 00:51:30.809
keep moving on. Well, we will.
957
00:51:31.309 --> 00:51:38.929
And, you know, I'm sure we'll be in touch.
958
00:51:41.809 --> 00:51:44.329
I really hope you enjoyed listening to this episode. It
959
00:51:44.349 --> 00:51:47.070
seems Ray has stayed very busy since season one wrapped,
960
00:51:47.230 --> 00:51:49.699
which should not come as a surprise. And I imagine
961
00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:52.440
there'll be more updates in the near future regarding some
962
00:51:52.460 --> 00:51:54.400
of the things that she shared in our conversation that
963
00:51:54.420 --> 00:51:58.440
she's actively working on. So stay tuned for that. Speaking
964
00:51:58.460 --> 00:52:00.920
of updates, I have a couple more episodes to share
965
00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:03.639
with you in the coming weeks. Essentially, I'll be repeating
966
00:52:03.659 --> 00:52:06.639
what I just did, reliving Season 1 of Culpable, but
967
00:52:06.659 --> 00:52:08.869
this time I'll be doing it with Season 2, the
968
00:52:08.889 --> 00:52:11.289
story of Brittany Stikes. And I'll also be catching up
969
00:52:11.309 --> 00:52:13.710
with our sister, Emily, to learn what's happened in the
970
00:52:13.750 --> 00:52:17.050
years since that story aired. The first episode will release
971
00:52:17.150 --> 00:52:20.199
on July 14th, and the second will release the following week,
972
00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:22.820
on the 21st. So please be sure to tune in
973
00:52:22.860 --> 00:52:25.199
for that, and get yourself up to speed on past
974
00:52:25.219 --> 00:52:29.179
seasons of Culpable. before the release of Season 3 in August.
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00:52:30.059 --> 00:52:30.639
Until next time.