speaker-0: Welcome to the Morrison Global Podcast, the show that brings you inspiring conversations from around the world. Along the way, we'll dive into the latest market insights, explore human topics like well-being and personal growth, and uncover trends shaping the accounting and finance industry. Whether you're looking to stay ahead in your field, gain fresh perspectives, or simply connect with stories that inspire, you're in the right place. So join us as we ignite change and connect communities across the globe. Hello and welcome to the next of these leadership series in Conversations With. Our Conversations With podcast is, I think, a fantastic way to hear from experts in and outside of the association. And today our focus is very much on leadership. And we have one of our very excellent association members joining us today to take us through her views. On leadership, what makes a great leader, and the ways in which leadership can and should be developed over the course of a career. So for those of you that don't know me, I'm Ryan Piper, I'm the CEO of Morrison Global, and I'm delighted to be joined today by Simona. I always don't like introducing people with pre-loaded words. I think it's always better to hear from the person themselves. But there is lots to say about Simona. So Simona, perhaps welcome firstly, and for the benefit of those people listening, perhaps if you give us a little introduction about yourself.
speaker-1: Yeah, hello from my side. I'm glad to be part of this podcast series. ⁓ my name is Simone Vic. I'm a tax partner at JKS Partner in Hamburg, especially taking care of succession planning, inheritance tax, international tax work. And furthermore, I really love to support young people developing and stepping into new roles. So thank you for the possibility to take part into this.
speaker-0: It's absolutely our pleasure. And I know you and I have had a number of conversations over the last twelve to eighteen months or so, you know, with my visits to Hamburg and so on. The things that you're doing in the firm I think are really innovative. And I'm delighted to hear all about them, both on this podcast but also in the course of our conversations over the last twelve months or so. And I know you've been working very hard in the firm to really inject, I think, a new lease of life into the culture of the business, you and the other partners. And I'm really excited to hear about that. So Without further ado, let's dive into the first question. It's a tricky one, I think, because it's very, very big. But in your view, how do you define leadership in today's world? And how has that definition evolved over your career? So we'll start with a really small question.
speaker-1: So when I started working, to be honest some decades ago, leadership was mainly about teaching technical skills and ensure that their work is done and that lines are met and not so much about personal issues. You had to be there and you had to do your work. So nowadays I think leadership includes several areas and topics and especially young people They want to be seen and led as a whole individual. So I think I would describe it as a kind of holistic approach. And nowadays not only technical skills are important, you still need them, but emotional intelligence and communication. Those two are very important skills for our leaders nowadays. And also times are so insecure nowadays. And I think people look for something safe and constant. And this is also An important point for the workplace.
speaker-0: I think that's a really interesting point about sort of consistency, isn't it? Leadership. If we have a leader that's very different every day, it's tricky to try and sort of find out how to work with that leader and how to be led in the best possible sense. So that consistency is so key, particularly as you say, when we look outside our window and there's so much change going on, some of it good, some of it perhaps less good. So then taking that that excellent description of the modern leader, how would you describe your leadership style?
speaker-1: If you ask how I like to lead, then I would say I prefer a cooperative or collaborative leadership style. I I have to be honest and say I developed. ⁓ so I developed from kind of controlled trust. And that's only the way I like to lead. And during the years and also thanks to talks to people and working with people, I understood. It's also important to know how the people who you're leading, how they want or need to be led. So this is kind of a serving leadership. And this means you take into account the needs of the people, but within your principles and values. So you do not change. Serving leadership really does not mean to deny you or how you are and how you like to lead. But it's inevitable for me to now how the people need you to be there and to lead you and doing this, stay integral, consistent as we said before, and reliable and I think then you will come to the best outcome.
speaker-0: You're right. It's a very tricky mix, isn't it, with how different people receive different communication and how different people like to be encouraged, motivated and led. And that can lead us into being different things for different people. But your point about being yourself, so you know, keeping within parameters, makes a a very tricky balance, which brings my thoughts into what do you think the characteristics of a great leader are? Because it's really sort of, you know, difficult dynamic in some regards. So what's your thoughts on that?
speaker-1: I started thinking about the question and the list got longer and longer. I think it needs a lot to be a good leader. I tried to sum it up and pick some really important points. And for me, I like giving names to something. So I would say I am there. I'm there and I'm ready to support you for your team, for your colleagues. So be empathetic. I think this is nowadays really one of the key points. ⁓ have real interest in people and talk to them. As we said before, be consistent and reliable. You can't change your mind every day. Your team needs fixed ground. They can rely on they know how to deal with you. And of course you have bad and good days also as a leader. Nevertheless, have your fixed ground and be communicative. Sometimes difficult for leaders, especially in the tax or at the lawyers department, but Be communicative. And this means not only speak a lot, but also listen a lot and do active listening to really understand what the people need, what you have to do. Sometimes a sense of humor might help. Sometimes you even have to be courageous or a bit creative. So try something new. Times are changing so fast. We have AI and everything. So I've summed this up as some of the main characteristics.
speaker-0: I mean it's a great list. Obviously one of the things I particularly like in that list is how you've pulled out sort of feeling paying attention, taking care with people and paying attention. And that's the thing that's very hard to fake, isn't it? If you are paying attention, it comes out and it's noticeable. If you don't do that, it ⁓ it also is noticeable as well. This next question I think is one of my favorite in the list. So are leaders born or are they built?
speaker-1: This was the most difficult question. I really thought about this and I talked to some people and my first thought was leaders involved. And then I dig deeper into this question and usher when thinking about the characteristics. Of course you can and I also think you should learn a lot about processes, techniques, leadership styles, etc. So those technical knowledge helps you to become a better leader. I furthermore have come to realize you even can learn to be empathetic. So if you are willing to really have a look at yourself, to take a deep look into yourself, how you behave, how you think, then I think you can really develop your leadership style and your leadership abilities and that you can really improve and that you can become a leader. So my answer changed from bond to you can develop and learn to be a leader.
speaker-0: It's a really interesting one, isn't it? It's a bit of a muscle. And you can develop a muscle and obviously you have to have some muscle to start with, I guess. But we do whether we're really good at leading naturally or not, we can definitely improve, can't we? And I think it's a really important distinction. You don't just turn up and you're great. You've got to develop, you've got to look at yourself. And that's a brilliant answer. Thank you. So then if we focus on yourself and your approach to leadership, is there anything that has sort of shaped or changed your approach to leadership over the recent years?
speaker-1: I think the people changed my view and my understanding. So of course thinking back now, becoming or being a leader, this began when I was led and when I started working, because I saw how people acted as leaders and how I liked or did not like the way they led me. So I especially remember a female partner I could work with and She had a more personal style of leading. She shared more private details. So for example, we knew when she had a school event she wanted to attend. And I recognized that her style, including not only work topics, but also personal topics, enhanced my work and my work results and how I liked working for her and with the team. So I would say the people and talking with people, dive deeper into theories, but the main issue were the people and the exchange with them.
speaker-0: That's a a really interesting point, isn't it? When you've got a role model who can show you and we're gonna talk about vulnerability, I think, a bit later, but when you've got a role model who can show you the human side of being a leader and sort of almost give you permission and see how that is such a good thing. Always really interested in hearing how other people have had a mentor or had a role model in the past. Cause I think back to that point about leaders being developed or built, positive role models are so important in all walks of life and particularly in the corporate space. So then what are some of the misconceptions that you've seen or that you've encountered about leadership and how would you challenge those misconceptions?
speaker-1: Still, leaders often think, to my opinion, they have to know everything. They have to be the best person in the room, and they have to decide everything. I really do not agree with this. Some assume this could be a sign of weakness. And by the way, also leaders can be weak sometimes. So it's not a bad thing. I think we'll come to this later. And really you do not have to know everything. You have to know how to handle things. It's kind of a question of self-assurance and self-awareness. So you really do not have to have the most knowledge. You can also give people space to be part of decisions, to hand them over some decisions and give people space to participate, to decide, to share their knowledge, to show their knowledge. And I'm glad if I have people on my team who know more about special topics than I do because then we are better together than I'm on my own. So therefore those are the most important misconceptions, especially in the fields of tax audit and lawyer.
speaker-0: Yes. I think that definitely resonates very strongly and will resonate with so many of the people that hear this podcast. I was always taught I think one of the best leadership lessons I had was, you know, hire great people and get out of their way. And I think that resonates with what you said. ⁓ I mean if you've got people who are know more than you, great. That means you're, you know, you're developing talent and you're identifying and spotting it and putting them into a position to be able to use that. So I love that. I think this is another tricky one, but I'm interested to hear your views. How you balance being both assertive and empathetic?
speaker-1: When I read the question my first thought were those are no opposites because both are needed to be a good leader, in my view. You can definitely be empathetic and approachable by seeing the needs of the your employees, by supporting them. As we said before, let them grow, let them develop. And at the same time you can or I would even say you have to be assertive if decisions have been made and those have to be enforced. And you can be empathetic by helping you to find the right tone when you enforce something. And many people like and need some guidance, a safe space to allow them to grow, do their work. For me it's nothing difficult or as I said before, opposites. I think both of are needed to be a good leader, to make your team getting better. And it's also part of being a leader. It's not always funny.
speaker-0: Yeah, I agree. And you know, showing people what's possible and then helping them into that, ⁓ is I guess the the the assertive and the empathetic bit in my mind. But I agree with you, they're not necessarily opposites. I think they sometimes come up in some people as opposites. Back to your coin's about communication and care. People don't necessarily, I think, pay attention to the the way in which their message is being received. And I think that then means the assertiveness and empathy often gets lost in the wash. So then if we think about some of the challenges you've faced over your career. What are the leadership qualities that you found have been most helpful in those chapters?
speaker-1: I found the three words being integral, consistent, and trustful. So need someone others can rely on. As I said before, be there. So this is one of the main important issues. Stay calm. Breathing often helps. Of course, also leaders can get in an emotional state. So breathe sometimes, also two or three times. And reassure your team. I'm here especially in difficult situations. And assure that you really listen to your people and the team, especially in difficult situations when you're struggling. So this I think helps a lot that you're not also one of those getting emotional and getting in a struggle mood, but stay calm, be reliable, integral, support your people. And of course, you can also be exhausted after this and everything. And nevertheless, I think if you try to be like this, then you can handle it.
speaker-0: It sounds so simple, doesn't it, just to pause and breathe. But it's so impactful. One of our brilliant colleagues, Georgie, is very big on this about, you know, taking a moment, let's actively breathe, right? Let's make sure that we are centering ourselves and make sure that we are, you know, not reacting to something that's ⁓ not going to be helpful. Let's take a pause. And and I think it's a really good piece of advice that we just overlook. And your point about not being emotional, not adding that sort of fuel to a fire can be very difficult as a leader because we're human.
speaker-1: Definitely difficult and taking your emotion a little bit back. Breathing really helps. It's not so easy, but but it's difficult in the situation.
speaker-0: Exactly right. We talked a little bit earlier about emotions and we talked about role models and being yourself and bringing those kind of moments to leadership. And that led into, I guess, a question of vulnerability. So in your view, what role does vulnerability play in effective leadership? And if you have an example of when being vulnerable helped you leads better, that would be great to share with us.
speaker-1: To my experience, life is really colorful and diverse, and vulnerability plays a central role. I think it's a prerequisite to work together in an open and trustful way. Being authentic, I think you can combine strength and vulnerability and become a great leader. If I am vulnerable, if I share information about me, if I even share if I'm not doing good. And every one of us has bad days and bad moments and everyone had to face difficult situations like an illness or a death of a family member or a dear friend. When you show that you're struggling with something, you you do not have to give all detail, just saying I'm having a bad moment, I'm having a bad experience and so you give trust and you show your people you trust them. with showing that you're emotional or vulnerable in this moment. And so you open the door for gaining trust from your people. And then if I know if something's going on with my people, I can support them. When I do not know it, perhaps I'll do something bad without wanting it. But if I don't know they're struggling, I do not know why they are perhaps looking sad or concerned or something like that. So this is part of serving leadership. This is not feasible without being vulnerable. So it's really no sign for not having authority or something people might see there. For me it's a base for trustful leadership style.
speaker-0: I completely agree. And it's a balance, isn't it? We need to show leadership in our vulnerability, I guess, in terms of how much we share or not. I got it very wrong in my early career because I had a colleague come to me saying, ⁓ you remember everything about a team, you remember some facts, this is great, you're really attentive. ⁓ we don't know anything about you. And I thought, Cool, that's fine. I've nailed it. Then I realized a little time later, no, no, no, no, I've got it wrong. You know, you have to show some of yourself, as it were, some vulnerability. In order to make people feel comfortable with being themselves and being authentic in themselves. So it's a balance and I didn't get that right in my career in the first part. And I I think listening to your answer is a really helpful guiding point for people to have the confidence to be able to do so. It's a tricky one and I do think it requires confidence to be vulnerable. I'm hoping that people listening to your thoughts and guidance are going to take a lot of notice of that one. And this particular question next. I like this because of the work that you're doing in your firm and I like this because of the conversations I've had with yourself and and some of your partners in the firm. But we're looking, I guess, now at innovation and lots of buzzwords around innovation and culture. Innovation and culture and trust. How do you in your firm and how do you and your team foster a culture of innovation and trust so that people feel they can turn up?
speaker-1: I said before it's give to gain so give trust first. Then you can earn trust and encourage them. Really ask for their opinion. And I often do not give ⁓ when we are talking about a question or something we're planning, I do not give my opinion first. I ask for then their opinion and you have to make sure that you really take a different opinion than yours openly and honestly and you really think about it. So that people see that they're not just only ask and then we do what we want and that what they said might be nice. Let get people involved. So talk about topics you're planning. It's hard to find the right timing when to talk about things and you can't talk about everything you're planning and discussing. And take the people with you on the journey to explain them like when we changed from the seniors leaving the company, getting new partners in. Take the people with you on the journey. Or even small things like we have the DICUS Partner Innovation Prize. It's a small thing. So people can let us know some ideas they have, what we can improve. This can be small things, this can be technical things, and we take it honest. So we annually choose one, two or three issues, and then we really take this over and the people get a small prize for it.
speaker-0: Very cool. I think it's ⁓ it's a really interesting point, isn't it, about innovation. We always think innovation has to be big and it has to be this sort of very sexy or very blitzy thing. And often it isn't. It's the little tiny thing that takes a bit of sand out of the gears for the rest of the team or the firm. And so innovation, I think, gets lost sometimes in this big sort of lofty piece. But actually you're right, it can be a very tiny thing and so impactful.
speaker-1: I fully agree. So yeah. Just proceed and try it.
speaker-0: Question's a tricky one, I think, but I'm very interested to ask this question around the world because I think there's lots of different reference points, not just culturally in different countries, but also from different service lines and people. We're all about people. So in your view, how do you measure success as a leader?
speaker-1: So many would expect I'll talk about KPIs and percentages and everything because I'm a tax advisor, I love numbers. Nevertheless, that's not how I would define success as a leader. So I love to lay a ground that my team members can develop into the best version of themselves. And that's success for me if I see people grow and develop and even if they sometimes leave me. So nevertheless, I did a great job, I think. It's my responsibility as a leader to set out the framework for the people and sometimes also to see the possibilities in people they do not see by themselves. Because I know it for myself. So you're not aware what you can do, what you can reach. Be a person who inspires others, who make them reach the point where I can see they can get, even if they do not see it. I recently read that if you ensure that you and the others are happy first, then success will come. So this is also an interesting point. And if you can ensure that people are happy is perhaps a strange word, but if they are confident with their work, with the workplace, and then they can become the best version of themselves. And then they, the whole team and me, we will be successful.
speaker-0: I love that. The ⁓ point about you know making people happy and seeing how that comes forward is a really important part of success. And I agree with you, the KPR is, you know, setting those aside is nowhere to focus. I think Bhutan, as is it Bhutan as a country, has a general happiness index that they measure, but they measure it in smiles. It's a really key point. As you said, you know, leadership is about showing people what's possible. I think your point just a moment ago really resonated about we're not necessarily ourselves the best witness. for our own potential or for how high we could go. And having a leader that shows the path and gives you the confidence to aim for that and achieve it is really powerful. We'll finish on, I think, a really tricky question because it's such a big question. But what advice would you give to someone stepping into a leadership role for the first time? And it's huge. So take your time. Feel free to have several pieces of advice if you've got it. What's the advice you'd give?
speaker-1: Okay, thank you, because I couldn't stick to just one advice. I said before, take your time and breathe. So this is really you do not have to answer everything in an instant. You're allowed to take your time and be there for your people and also for yourself. So this is also a thing I learned. You need to be in a good state to be able to support and lead others. I think only those who are able to lead themselves, they can also lead others. And it will not always be easy. So you're allowed to struggle, you're allowed to fail, you're allowed to ask other people for support, and you're allowed to learn. And when you do this, then start leading yourself, then you can lead others, and then you can also lead your business. And by doing this, we're especially people in my age, we're so used to go through it and be tough. and everything and also learn to be kind to yourself and be kind to other people. So I could talk about a lot of other things, but I think if you start with this, then you can learn and develop all those other techniques and procedures and knowledge and everything. I think this is a good ground and a good advice to start so that you can become a good leader.
speaker-0: That's a great answer. There's so much in that. I love that point about being kind. There's that question, isn't there, about if you can be right or if you can be kind, choose kindness because we never really know what is on in somebody else's day or in somebody else's thoughts or pressures of the time. So I know you've said it before, but that point about pausing, the last one I think I mean lots of great comments, but the last one about it's okay to be wrong. And you said in the earlier part of our conversation, leaders don't need to know everything. And often it's better if they don't because they bring other people into that question, but failing. It's okay to say to you, you know, as a leader, I I got that one wrong. And I think we often get muddled up with that, don't we? We see that as something that we can't say because it's important we're leading and how can a leader be wrong? We could continue this conversation, I think, for a really long time because there's lots and lots of great points that you've made. So I'm sorry that we have to cut this one short. But I'm delighted, Simona, that you've been with us today to talk through your perspective on leadership. Thank you so much for your time.
speaker-1: Thanks for giving me this possibility.
speaker-0: It's our pleasure. And you know, in the association, we're lucky to have so many great leaders and yourself among them to be able to give us your insights on this really important topic. So thank you so much to you, Simona. Thank you to everybody that has listened to this. This has been one of our conversations with Ceres, and this particular series is looking at leadership. We've had Simona, I've been Ryan, and I will look forward to the next session where we talk about leadership. And we're hearing from one of our colleagues in the association too. So again, thank you so much, Simona, and speak to you very soon. Thank you for tuning in to the Morrison Global podcast. We hope today's episode sparked new ideas, broadened your thinking, and offered a fresh perspective. Don't forget to subscribe, share, and stay with us as we continue exploring the insights and stories shaping our world. Until next time, stay curious, stay inspired, and keep the conversations going.
speaker-1: Yeah, hello from my side. I'm glad to be part of this podcast series. ⁓ my name is Simone Vic. I'm a tax partner at JKS Partner in Hamburg, especially taking care of succession planning, inheritance tax, international tax work. And furthermore, I really love to support young people developing and stepping into new roles. So thank you for the possibility to take part into this.
speaker-0: It's absolutely our pleasure. And I know you and I have had a number of conversations over the last twelve to eighteen months or so, you know, with my visits to Hamburg and so on. The things that you're doing in the firm I think are really innovative. And I'm delighted to hear all about them, both on this podcast but also in the course of our conversations over the last twelve months or so. And I know you've been working very hard in the firm to really inject, I think, a new lease of life into the culture of the business, you and the other partners. And I'm really excited to hear about that. So Without further ado, let's dive into the first question. It's a tricky one, I think, because it's very, very big. But in your view, how do you define leadership in today's world? And how has that definition evolved over your career? So we'll start with a really small question.
speaker-1: So when I started working, to be honest some decades ago, leadership was mainly about teaching technical skills and ensure that their work is done and that lines are met and not so much about personal issues. You had to be there and you had to do your work. So nowadays I think leadership includes several areas and topics and especially young people They want to be seen and led as a whole individual. So I think I would describe it as a kind of holistic approach. And nowadays not only technical skills are important, you still need them, but emotional intelligence and communication. Those two are very important skills for our leaders nowadays. And also times are so insecure nowadays. And I think people look for something safe and constant. And this is also An important point for the workplace.
speaker-0: I think that's a really interesting point about sort of consistency, isn't it? Leadership. If we have a leader that's very different every day, it's tricky to try and sort of find out how to work with that leader and how to be led in the best possible sense. So that consistency is so key, particularly as you say, when we look outside our window and there's so much change going on, some of it good, some of it perhaps less good. So then taking that that excellent description of the modern leader, how would you describe your leadership style?
speaker-1: If you ask how I like to lead, then I would say I prefer a cooperative or collaborative leadership style. I I have to be honest and say I developed. ⁓ so I developed from kind of controlled trust. And that's only the way I like to lead. And during the years and also thanks to talks to people and working with people, I understood. It's also important to know how the people who you're leading, how they want or need to be led. So this is kind of a serving leadership. And this means you take into account the needs of the people, but within your principles and values. So you do not change. Serving leadership really does not mean to deny you or how you are and how you like to lead. But it's inevitable for me to now how the people need you to be there and to lead you and doing this, stay integral, consistent as we said before, and reliable and I think then you will come to the best outcome.
speaker-0: You're right. It's a very tricky mix, isn't it, with how different people receive different communication and how different people like to be encouraged, motivated and led. And that can lead us into being different things for different people. But your point about being yourself, so you know, keeping within parameters, makes a a very tricky balance, which brings my thoughts into what do you think the characteristics of a great leader are? Because it's really sort of, you know, difficult dynamic in some regards. So what's your thoughts on that?
speaker-1: I started thinking about the question and the list got longer and longer. I think it needs a lot to be a good leader. I tried to sum it up and pick some really important points. And for me, I like giving names to something. So I would say I am there. I'm there and I'm ready to support you for your team, for your colleagues. So be empathetic. I think this is nowadays really one of the key points. ⁓ have real interest in people and talk to them. As we said before, be consistent and reliable. You can't change your mind every day. Your team needs fixed ground. They can rely on they know how to deal with you. And of course you have bad and good days also as a leader. Nevertheless, have your fixed ground and be communicative. Sometimes difficult for leaders, especially in the tax or at the lawyers department, but Be communicative. And this means not only speak a lot, but also listen a lot and do active listening to really understand what the people need, what you have to do. Sometimes a sense of humor might help. Sometimes you even have to be courageous or a bit creative. So try something new. Times are changing so fast. We have AI and everything. So I've summed this up as some of the main characteristics.
speaker-0: I mean it's a great list. Obviously one of the things I particularly like in that list is how you've pulled out sort of feeling paying attention, taking care with people and paying attention. And that's the thing that's very hard to fake, isn't it? If you are paying attention, it comes out and it's noticeable. If you don't do that, it ⁓ it also is noticeable as well. This next question I think is one of my favorite in the list. So are leaders born or are they built?
speaker-1: This was the most difficult question. I really thought about this and I talked to some people and my first thought was leaders involved. And then I dig deeper into this question and usher when thinking about the characteristics. Of course you can and I also think you should learn a lot about processes, techniques, leadership styles, etc. So those technical knowledge helps you to become a better leader. I furthermore have come to realize you even can learn to be empathetic. So if you are willing to really have a look at yourself, to take a deep look into yourself, how you behave, how you think, then I think you can really develop your leadership style and your leadership abilities and that you can really improve and that you can become a leader. So my answer changed from bond to you can develop and learn to be a leader.
speaker-0: It's a really interesting one, isn't it? It's a bit of a muscle. And you can develop a muscle and obviously you have to have some muscle to start with, I guess. But we do whether we're really good at leading naturally or not, we can definitely improve, can't we? And I think it's a really important distinction. You don't just turn up and you're great. You've got to develop, you've got to look at yourself. And that's a brilliant answer. Thank you. So then if we focus on yourself and your approach to leadership, is there anything that has sort of shaped or changed your approach to leadership over the recent years?
speaker-1: I think the people changed my view and my understanding. So of course thinking back now, becoming or being a leader, this began when I was led and when I started working, because I saw how people acted as leaders and how I liked or did not like the way they led me. So I especially remember a female partner I could work with and She had a more personal style of leading. She shared more private details. So for example, we knew when she had a school event she wanted to attend. And I recognized that her style, including not only work topics, but also personal topics, enhanced my work and my work results and how I liked working for her and with the team. So I would say the people and talking with people, dive deeper into theories, but the main issue were the people and the exchange with them.
speaker-0: That's a a really interesting point, isn't it? When you've got a role model who can show you and we're gonna talk about vulnerability, I think, a bit later, but when you've got a role model who can show you the human side of being a leader and sort of almost give you permission and see how that is such a good thing. Always really interested in hearing how other people have had a mentor or had a role model in the past. Cause I think back to that point about leaders being developed or built, positive role models are so important in all walks of life and particularly in the corporate space. So then what are some of the misconceptions that you've seen or that you've encountered about leadership and how would you challenge those misconceptions?
speaker-1: Still, leaders often think, to my opinion, they have to know everything. They have to be the best person in the room, and they have to decide everything. I really do not agree with this. Some assume this could be a sign of weakness. And by the way, also leaders can be weak sometimes. So it's not a bad thing. I think we'll come to this later. And really you do not have to know everything. You have to know how to handle things. It's kind of a question of self-assurance and self-awareness. So you really do not have to have the most knowledge. You can also give people space to be part of decisions, to hand them over some decisions and give people space to participate, to decide, to share their knowledge, to show their knowledge. And I'm glad if I have people on my team who know more about special topics than I do because then we are better together than I'm on my own. So therefore those are the most important misconceptions, especially in the fields of tax audit and lawyer.
speaker-0: Yes. I think that definitely resonates very strongly and will resonate with so many of the people that hear this podcast. I was always taught I think one of the best leadership lessons I had was, you know, hire great people and get out of their way. And I think that resonates with what you said. ⁓ I mean if you've got people who are know more than you, great. That means you're, you know, you're developing talent and you're identifying and spotting it and putting them into a position to be able to use that. So I love that. I think this is another tricky one, but I'm interested to hear your views. How you balance being both assertive and empathetic?
speaker-1: When I read the question my first thought were those are no opposites because both are needed to be a good leader, in my view. You can definitely be empathetic and approachable by seeing the needs of the your employees, by supporting them. As we said before, let them grow, let them develop. And at the same time you can or I would even say you have to be assertive if decisions have been made and those have to be enforced. And you can be empathetic by helping you to find the right tone when you enforce something. And many people like and need some guidance, a safe space to allow them to grow, do their work. For me it's nothing difficult or as I said before, opposites. I think both of are needed to be a good leader, to make your team getting better. And it's also part of being a leader. It's not always funny.
speaker-0: Yeah, I agree. And you know, showing people what's possible and then helping them into that, ⁓ is I guess the the the assertive and the empathetic bit in my mind. But I agree with you, they're not necessarily opposites. I think they sometimes come up in some people as opposites. Back to your coin's about communication and care. People don't necessarily, I think, pay attention to the the way in which their message is being received. And I think that then means the assertiveness and empathy often gets lost in the wash. So then if we think about some of the challenges you've faced over your career. What are the leadership qualities that you found have been most helpful in those chapters?
speaker-1: I found the three words being integral, consistent, and trustful. So need someone others can rely on. As I said before, be there. So this is one of the main important issues. Stay calm. Breathing often helps. Of course, also leaders can get in an emotional state. So breathe sometimes, also two or three times. And reassure your team. I'm here especially in difficult situations. And assure that you really listen to your people and the team, especially in difficult situations when you're struggling. So this I think helps a lot that you're not also one of those getting emotional and getting in a struggle mood, but stay calm, be reliable, integral, support your people. And of course, you can also be exhausted after this and everything. And nevertheless, I think if you try to be like this, then you can handle it.
speaker-0: It sounds so simple, doesn't it, just to pause and breathe. But it's so impactful. One of our brilliant colleagues, Georgie, is very big on this about, you know, taking a moment, let's actively breathe, right? Let's make sure that we are centering ourselves and make sure that we are, you know, not reacting to something that's ⁓ not going to be helpful. Let's take a pause. And and I think it's a really good piece of advice that we just overlook. And your point about not being emotional, not adding that sort of fuel to a fire can be very difficult as a leader because we're human.
speaker-1: Definitely difficult and taking your emotion a little bit back. Breathing really helps. It's not so easy, but but it's difficult in the situation.
speaker-0: Exactly right. We talked a little bit earlier about emotions and we talked about role models and being yourself and bringing those kind of moments to leadership. And that led into, I guess, a question of vulnerability. So in your view, what role does vulnerability play in effective leadership? And if you have an example of when being vulnerable helped you leads better, that would be great to share with us.
speaker-1: To my experience, life is really colorful and diverse, and vulnerability plays a central role. I think it's a prerequisite to work together in an open and trustful way. Being authentic, I think you can combine strength and vulnerability and become a great leader. If I am vulnerable, if I share information about me, if I even share if I'm not doing good. And every one of us has bad days and bad moments and everyone had to face difficult situations like an illness or a death of a family member or a dear friend. When you show that you're struggling with something, you you do not have to give all detail, just saying I'm having a bad moment, I'm having a bad experience and so you give trust and you show your people you trust them. with showing that you're emotional or vulnerable in this moment. And so you open the door for gaining trust from your people. And then if I know if something's going on with my people, I can support them. When I do not know it, perhaps I'll do something bad without wanting it. But if I don't know they're struggling, I do not know why they are perhaps looking sad or concerned or something like that. So this is part of serving leadership. This is not feasible without being vulnerable. So it's really no sign for not having authority or something people might see there. For me it's a base for trustful leadership style.
speaker-0: I completely agree. And it's a balance, isn't it? We need to show leadership in our vulnerability, I guess, in terms of how much we share or not. I got it very wrong in my early career because I had a colleague come to me saying, ⁓ you remember everything about a team, you remember some facts, this is great, you're really attentive. ⁓ we don't know anything about you. And I thought, Cool, that's fine. I've nailed it. Then I realized a little time later, no, no, no, no, I've got it wrong. You know, you have to show some of yourself, as it were, some vulnerability. In order to make people feel comfortable with being themselves and being authentic in themselves. So it's a balance and I didn't get that right in my career in the first part. And I I think listening to your answer is a really helpful guiding point for people to have the confidence to be able to do so. It's a tricky one and I do think it requires confidence to be vulnerable. I'm hoping that people listening to your thoughts and guidance are going to take a lot of notice of that one. And this particular question next. I like this because of the work that you're doing in your firm and I like this because of the conversations I've had with yourself and and some of your partners in the firm. But we're looking, I guess, now at innovation and lots of buzzwords around innovation and culture. Innovation and culture and trust. How do you in your firm and how do you and your team foster a culture of innovation and trust so that people feel they can turn up?
speaker-1: I said before it's give to gain so give trust first. Then you can earn trust and encourage them. Really ask for their opinion. And I often do not give ⁓ when we are talking about a question or something we're planning, I do not give my opinion first. I ask for then their opinion and you have to make sure that you really take a different opinion than yours openly and honestly and you really think about it. So that people see that they're not just only ask and then we do what we want and that what they said might be nice. Let get people involved. So talk about topics you're planning. It's hard to find the right timing when to talk about things and you can't talk about everything you're planning and discussing. And take the people with you on the journey to explain them like when we changed from the seniors leaving the company, getting new partners in. Take the people with you on the journey. Or even small things like we have the DICUS Partner Innovation Prize. It's a small thing. So people can let us know some ideas they have, what we can improve. This can be small things, this can be technical things, and we take it honest. So we annually choose one, two or three issues, and then we really take this over and the people get a small prize for it.
speaker-0: Very cool. I think it's ⁓ it's a really interesting point, isn't it, about innovation. We always think innovation has to be big and it has to be this sort of very sexy or very blitzy thing. And often it isn't. It's the little tiny thing that takes a bit of sand out of the gears for the rest of the team or the firm. And so innovation, I think, gets lost sometimes in this big sort of lofty piece. But actually you're right, it can be a very tiny thing and so impactful.
speaker-1: I fully agree. So yeah. Just proceed and try it.
speaker-0: Question's a tricky one, I think, but I'm very interested to ask this question around the world because I think there's lots of different reference points, not just culturally in different countries, but also from different service lines and people. We're all about people. So in your view, how do you measure success as a leader?
speaker-1: So many would expect I'll talk about KPIs and percentages and everything because I'm a tax advisor, I love numbers. Nevertheless, that's not how I would define success as a leader. So I love to lay a ground that my team members can develop into the best version of themselves. And that's success for me if I see people grow and develop and even if they sometimes leave me. So nevertheless, I did a great job, I think. It's my responsibility as a leader to set out the framework for the people and sometimes also to see the possibilities in people they do not see by themselves. Because I know it for myself. So you're not aware what you can do, what you can reach. Be a person who inspires others, who make them reach the point where I can see they can get, even if they do not see it. I recently read that if you ensure that you and the others are happy first, then success will come. So this is also an interesting point. And if you can ensure that people are happy is perhaps a strange word, but if they are confident with their work, with the workplace, and then they can become the best version of themselves. And then they, the whole team and me, we will be successful.
speaker-0: I love that. The ⁓ point about you know making people happy and seeing how that comes forward is a really important part of success. And I agree with you, the KPR is, you know, setting those aside is nowhere to focus. I think Bhutan, as is it Bhutan as a country, has a general happiness index that they measure, but they measure it in smiles. It's a really key point. As you said, you know, leadership is about showing people what's possible. I think your point just a moment ago really resonated about we're not necessarily ourselves the best witness. for our own potential or for how high we could go. And having a leader that shows the path and gives you the confidence to aim for that and achieve it is really powerful. We'll finish on, I think, a really tricky question because it's such a big question. But what advice would you give to someone stepping into a leadership role for the first time? And it's huge. So take your time. Feel free to have several pieces of advice if you've got it. What's the advice you'd give?
speaker-1: Okay, thank you, because I couldn't stick to just one advice. I said before, take your time and breathe. So this is really you do not have to answer everything in an instant. You're allowed to take your time and be there for your people and also for yourself. So this is also a thing I learned. You need to be in a good state to be able to support and lead others. I think only those who are able to lead themselves, they can also lead others. And it will not always be easy. So you're allowed to struggle, you're allowed to fail, you're allowed to ask other people for support, and you're allowed to learn. And when you do this, then start leading yourself, then you can lead others, and then you can also lead your business. And by doing this, we're especially people in my age, we're so used to go through it and be tough. and everything and also learn to be kind to yourself and be kind to other people. So I could talk about a lot of other things, but I think if you start with this, then you can learn and develop all those other techniques and procedures and knowledge and everything. I think this is a good ground and a good advice to start so that you can become a good leader.
speaker-0: That's a great answer. There's so much in that. I love that point about being kind. There's that question, isn't there, about if you can be right or if you can be kind, choose kindness because we never really know what is on in somebody else's day or in somebody else's thoughts or pressures of the time. So I know you've said it before, but that point about pausing, the last one I think I mean lots of great comments, but the last one about it's okay to be wrong. And you said in the earlier part of our conversation, leaders don't need to know everything. And often it's better if they don't because they bring other people into that question, but failing. It's okay to say to you, you know, as a leader, I I got that one wrong. And I think we often get muddled up with that, don't we? We see that as something that we can't say because it's important we're leading and how can a leader be wrong? We could continue this conversation, I think, for a really long time because there's lots and lots of great points that you've made. So I'm sorry that we have to cut this one short. But I'm delighted, Simona, that you've been with us today to talk through your perspective on leadership. Thank you so much for your time.
speaker-1: Thanks for giving me this possibility.
speaker-0: It's our pleasure. And you know, in the association, we're lucky to have so many great leaders and yourself among them to be able to give us your insights on this really important topic. So thank you so much to you, Simona. Thank you to everybody that has listened to this. This has been one of our conversations with Ceres, and this particular series is looking at leadership. We've had Simona, I've been Ryan, and I will look forward to the next session where we talk about leadership. And we're hearing from one of our colleagues in the association too. So again, thank you so much, Simona, and speak to you very soon. Thank you for tuning in to the Morrison Global podcast. We hope today's episode sparked new ideas, broadened your thinking, and offered a fresh perspective. Don't forget to subscribe, share, and stay with us as we continue exploring the insights and stories shaping our world. Until next time, stay curious, stay inspired, and keep the conversations going.
