00:00:12Understanding Imposter Syndrome in High Achievers
00:12:49Recognizing and Understanding Imposter Syndrome
00:27:34Imposter Syndrome
00:42:21Imposter Syndrome and Stigma in Business
OM DENNE EPISODE
Meet Tara Halliday PhD – Imposter Syndrome Specialist
Ever feel like a fraud at the peak of your success? You're in good company as we unpack the elusive imposter syndrome with our guest expert, Tara, who holds a PhD in the subject. We kick off by peeling back the layers of this psychological pattern, distinguishing it from mere low self-esteem.
Tara enlightens us on how our worth isn't measured by our accolades and how childhood beliefs might be the true culprits behind those nagging doubts.
Join us as we explore why that nagging voice in your head might be more than just a passing worry. We look at the telltale signs of imposter syndrome, from stress responses to perfectionism, and discuss how these internal battles can take a toll on our careers and mental health.
Recognising imposter syndrome is just the beginning; our conversation sheds light on the misconceptions that can lead to isolation and self-sabotage. We discover that acknowledging these feelings is the first step toward overcoming them, and we provide the initial tools to start that journey.
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So hi Tara, welcome to Confirmed TV.
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Thank you very much, alistair, great to be here.
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Yes, and I've wanted to have you on the show for quite a long time.
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Tara is an author and an expert.
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She has a PhD and her specialisation is in imposter syndrome, something which a lot of my listeners will all pretend doesn't happen to them, but we all know it actually does.
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So I think the key thing is, tara, is we all have a view of what imposter syndrome is based on the probably a lot of nonsense that we see on LinkedIn and various channels.
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Could you actually start by telling us what it actually is?
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Yes, so imposter syndrome is the secret feeling of being fraught and not good enough when you're not, and it's the fear, on top of that, of being found out.
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And that is the heart of imposter syndrome.
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So that's quite interesting.
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I hadn't thought of the when you're not so, because I always thought you had it regardless of success, or you just feel you're doing this thing, you don't know how you got there, you don't deserve it, was the thing I kind of took away from it and you're saying actually I can have this thing and I can actually be a success and I can still really badly suffer from this.
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Absolutely.
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If you weren't good enough, if you genuinely weren't good enough or you felt like that in all areas of your life, we'd call that low self-esteem.
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And it wouldn't be, then, a high achiever?
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Yes.
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Imposter syndrome shows up most in high achievers, when they're really trying to stretch themselves or really get something remarkable done.
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And that's why it's so confusing for people, because it's obvious, because if it's low self-esteem, I'm just rubbish at everything.
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But actually it's high achievers who are saying I don't know why I think I'm good at I'm being told I'm good at this thing, but I don't really believe that I am.
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Definitely that's it, because intellectually, logically, you know you're good enough, but you're just not feeling it on the inside, and so there's this gap in your brain that creates a lot of confusion.
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Is it linked to the fact that some high achievers, well, we quite open and say I am a high achiever because of something that happened in my past, or my appearance was incredibly poor and I was driven not to be like that, or I had trouble in early life.
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So, therefore, the drive to which has made them a high achiever is not linked to the fact that they've recognised in their brain that they're a high achiever.
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It's a sense of not feeling good enough, and that can come from a challenging childhood, for example.
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Definitely that's one of the drivers.
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But you can also get it if you're somebody who had every possible opportunity and a luxurious childhood.
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A sense of not feeling good enough.
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People would automatically assume that you got the job because your dad knows somebody.
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So it does go across the board.
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But that sense of I'm not quite good enough, that my worth depends on what I do.
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That is the belief that underlies all of imposter syndrome and that is basically the way our society is set up.
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It's something that, unless you unlearn it as a young child, then you carry it with you as an unconscious belief and it gets reinforced in everything that we do.
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So you're saying that we actually learn this as a child and we just take it with us.
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It's not something like oh my goodness, I've sold to Google for a hundred million and people are saying I was the best found in the world.
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I have no idea and I don't really believe it myself.
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Are you saying, actually it isn't.
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When you get over, I'll call it over promoted?
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That's what always happened to me in the past when you get over promoted and you feel you should be doing it, or is it actually something you've learned way, way, way before as a child, in school or whatever?
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It's an unconscious belief, so most people aren't aware of it.
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Some people are definitely aware of it.
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Oh, I don't feel like I'm good enough.
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Most people, it's all conscious.
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So, as you're a young child, when you're a baby, you don't have a sense of I a sense of myself.
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And actually that takes quite a little while to actually generate that sense of I.
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And so, as you're starting to be socialized, if you think of a two-year-old, you should be quite with the world.
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There is this part where you don't have a distinction between yourself and your actions.
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Yes, that's what I call the furniture.
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Yeah.
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So when you get told don't do that which could be the good reasons, like running out in front of the car I would stop, hold back or don't do that or that's bad.
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We take it as I'm bad.
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So if I do something good, I am good.
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If I do something bad, I am bad.
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So that's the fundamental idea that you're worth as a human being is conditional, and unless you get explicitly taught that as a young child, when you develop that sense, of I a separation between worse and behavior, then we just carry it forwards.
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And then it just disappears in your teenager, I'm guessing, a lot of the time, and it pops back out when you find yourself as a grown-up Does that be fair.
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It will show up in different ways at all stages, that sense of not feeling good enough, and with higher chiefers it's not in everything.
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It often just shows up in one particular area of their lives or area of their work.
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It is a strange thing, isn't it?
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Because I've spoken to many founders over the years and I think, when you've had a few beers, some of them will be more honest than others, and I actually believe there's a little bit of self-doubt.
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And then there's this thing underneath it.
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So I think there's a little bit of self-doubt, like how did I get here?
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Like I spoke to one and raised five million the other day, and he's kind of like it was just an idea, but I don't think he's got any doubts in his ability to do it.
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He doesn't really feel like imposter syndrome is just like oh shit.
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And then I've met others who really are doing it and have been honest and said I don't understand.
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I'm doing this thing, I feel like I'm going through the motions, but I don't deserve to be here.
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I don't understand him here and I'm not really sure I can do it.
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And this is despite having like 200 staff, and that is terrifying.
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That's not terrifying, that's harsh.
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It's weird, though, that they kind of wake up oh my God, get in the car, drive to the office now.
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Hey guys, let's get this thing done.
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And it's kind of like inside there's something going help, right, and that's 200 staff.
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That's it, and bigger and bigger and bigger.
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I work with corporate executives and founders and thousands, of, tens of thousands of staff Billions of others group CEOs.
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I mean it's something that as you get to that higher levels, it shows up more because imposter syndrome comes and goes.
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It must be worse the bigger, because it's almost like this.
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It must be worse the bigger the responsibility.
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But definition if I run BP, I kind of wake up one day and I'm 45 and I'm running BP.
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I must you've got to think it's a dream some days, or how did that happen?
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Or I can't do this Right.
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Just I mean, if you imagine and this is here we'll come back to this good question I've got in my head here, I mean that must just be the case that you think why am I running 45,000 people in a $100 billion business or whatever the crazy numbers are?
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Because how did you get there?
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Because the time passes so fast?
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There must be this time thing where time passes fast when you're busy and high achievers work really hard, the higher work rates because they're not working their cycling or going to gym or something, and then they just get there really quickly.
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For the sake of people who aren't watching on YouTube, I'm doing my hand and I kind of up into the right kind of graph way, so really fast to get there.
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What feels really fast?
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Actually, 20 years, wake up one day running BP.
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Oh shit, that must happen a lot, I'm guessing.
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Absolutely so.
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There's two kind of effects in there.
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One is the you know if you're climbing a mountain right and you just next step, next step, next step.
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Yes, that's much better, and then you stop, we've come around and you go, wow, look at that.
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And for you that's incredible and gosh, I can't believe that I've got to this level.
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And that doesn't have to be about doubting yourself, that can just be.
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wow, isn't this amazing?
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How I never would have thought that from back there in the valley there would have been this view up here.
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How it's exhilarating, because success and really stretching and challenging yourself is exhilarating.
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You think, gosh, this is great.
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It's when you start making it mean something about you, right?
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I mean, oh my gosh, do I deserve this?
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Maybe I don't deserve this, maybe it was a fluke, maybe I just got lucky and maybe people are going to find me out.
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I just you know, it was just a series of rolls of the dice.
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Which it was.
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And somebody's going to find out, and that's that.
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When you look at this as a sort of from an actual education point of view, my, my, my amateur point of view, would say it is a bunch of rolls of the dice, right, but is it?
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Yes.
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Do you think it is?
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I mean from the door?
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No, so people think it's a roll of the dice, that it's nothing to do with them, because they discount their own talents and their own skills.
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They say, oh, everyone could have done it.
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I think, oh, I just got lucky right.
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So that might just sound polite or humble or something like that.
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But the fact is they have worked and intellectually they know that they have worked.
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They have worked down hard, they have worked and really put in the effort.
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They have got natural talent, natural skills.
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They have learned some really good ways of either analyzing things or dealing with people.
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They have been particularly creative.
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So they have genuinely achieved it.
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Because you don't get to be the head of a large company without having some ability.
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Is that?
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Is that?
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Do you see that?
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That it appears more of people who don't have an actual expertise than those who do Like if I'm the CTO, I can do coding, I can.
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I've come from a coding background, I can do that.
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If I'm the CEO, the chances are I have not got that skill, I have not got the accountancy skills, I've not got the HR skills.
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Does it appear more in the generalists who tend to run things, than the people who are like the CTO of BP, for example?
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It makes no difference.
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Oh, wow, okay, I wasn't expecting that.
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I was expecting, yeah, generalists are a bit vague, so it doesn't make any difference.
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No, because, because.
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So one of the classic imposter syndrome behaviors is perfectionism, and one form of perfectionism is knowledge perfectionism.
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I must be right, I must know everything.
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So you can be highly technically skilled, you can be CEO with a tech background and still feel like I don't know everything.
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And what you do then is you would ever prepare for any kind of meeting presentation, something like that, so you put way more into it than it warrants.
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You'd work far harder to make sure that you have every single answer, just in case someone else, so that they won't catch you out, so that you won't be wrong.
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Protect your shell.
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Yeah yeah, it's like you're an egg in a delicate shell.
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You got to put the armor up in case somebody pokes a hole in it.
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That's it.
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Wow.
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So one of the things we're going to talk about is how do you spot it, and off the back of that I would like to talk about is it a good or a bad thing in the workplace?
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So let's go with how do you spot it first.
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This is for yourself, not for how you spot it on other people.
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Yeah.
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So trying to spot it in other people, just saying that is going to be very difficult because people hide it.
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I see it as one part of it.
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And so many of my clients say that everyone around them is telling them how competent they are.
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How competent they are.
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So it's a case of more like you're disregarding that feedback, so how do you spot it in yourself There'll?
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be, two or three typical ways.
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One is in terms of the stress itself, your physiology.
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So the stress of imposter syndrome can trigger the fight, flight and freeze response and so that is the physiological.
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Your blood pressure changes, you get less blood flow to your thinking part of your brain and you might go blank.
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You literally can't think or you're not making this good decision.
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So there's things like that in there.
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So you'll feel you're off your game or you'll feel you're more reactive.
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The emotions that go with that would be you get angry more easily or more impatient, you get anxiety or you can't sleep at night, dread one day morning, or you get this sense of overwhelm and that's when you go into the freeze state and it's procrastination and things like that.
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So that's all the physiology.
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So some people just notice that part of it.
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They just notice that you know I'm very stressed.
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This is hard work, this is harder than it should be.
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That's the feeling.
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The other part is the imposter syndrome behaviors and that's like the perfectionism I mentioned, the over-preparing there is.
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Covering your cracks for not feeling like you're very good, basically.
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Yeah.
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So that's the kind of thing you might avoid situations, avoid promotions.
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You know I was talking to one client and he you know business advisor and he said he's imposter syndrome and cost him 100,000 pounds a year for the last three years because he hadn't gone for particular contracts, because he didn't feel he was good enough.
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Another would be didn't go for a particular promotion because he couldn't take every single box rather than just be graded all of it.
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So you know it has a very real consequence in that sense.
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So who gets it?
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Is there a type?
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There is no the question there.
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It's a great question.
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Well, yes, there's a few answers to this question.
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Let's start with just who gets it.
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Who gets it?
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So 70% of high achievers experience imposter syndrome at some point in life.
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That they recognize, that they recognize, that's a very good catch, because there are people who are in denial.
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They would never admit to it.
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There are people who don't recognize it in themselves and so they're oblivious to it, and there are people who avoid a particular situation that might trigger their imposter syndrome.
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OK.
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So this is an example of a situation where that might occur.
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So a high challenge situation can be starting a business, getting some investment, getting a promotion or getting a big project, so something like that.
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Long support can be simply that you don't have anyone like a mentor or something that you can go to to talk things through.
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Or an extreme version of low support is when you're in a toxic work environment.
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Yes.
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So you've got a bully in the workplace and things like that, and imposter syndrome tends to come and go when you've got a culmination of high challenge and low support.
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I wouldn't necessarily say it shows up in how you interact with the people around you.
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OK.
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Because it's not that easy to spot.
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There is a sense of isolation with a positive syndrome.
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Because everyone keeps it a secret.
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When you feel it, you think it's just you.
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Yes, nobody else gets this.
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Or if they don't get it nearly as bad as me.
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So this is just a big feeling of isolation and it's inexplicable.
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It's inexplicable.
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You don't really understand why.
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So you try and think why am I feeling?
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What's different about me?
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And then people can start creating more sorts of stories.
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They're looking for this cause and effect.
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I'm feeling bad.
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Why am I feeling bad?
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They're looking for something obvious.
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There's often something outside of them.
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Maybe I didn't get good enough education All of these have got this qualification or I haven't.
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Maybe I need to get more qualifications.
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Maybe I have the wrong accent, maybe I've come from the wrong part of the country or the wrong part of the world.
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So we're looking for these logical reasons for it.
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We're not looking inside at the fundamental cause of it.
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We're just trying to connect the dots.
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So all of that just increases that sense of isolation and that it must be just me.
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And then from that you can conclude there must be something wrong with me.
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Maybe I'm not good enough.
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Maybe I don't belong at this level.
00:18:38.134 --> 00:18:46.751
Yeah, there must be loads of airtime talked about coming from the north or whatever going to the wrong school.
00:18:46.751 --> 00:18:48.813
You can see it is constantly.
00:18:48.813 --> 00:19:00.608
Actually, if you think of it, it's like a gentle banging drum in the background about all these things and that's actually maybe people talking about it because they're trying to say I got here but I shouldn't be here, despite my school, despite these things.
00:19:00.608 --> 00:19:11.472
There's a great guy called Zuby on Twitter who says everyone who talks about failing to achieve and blaming other people in the Western world, especially in Europe, he says just rubbish.
00:19:11.472 --> 00:19:17.394
He said because everyone's got an opportunity here, compared to in every other country where it's really hard.
00:19:17.394 --> 00:19:23.151
And I think he even talked about it's people looking inwards Instead of just going, just get home with it.
00:19:23.925 --> 00:19:26.224
So what you're saying there is that you've got a post syndrome.
00:19:26.224 --> 00:19:30.114
You may or may not recognize it, and then you go to you cast around for the reasons.
00:19:30.114 --> 00:19:36.308
So, even though you've achieved something, you then cast around for reasons to justify how you got there, because you don't think you should be there.
00:19:36.308 --> 00:19:40.615
Yes, I'm too Scottish to run this company, that's it.
00:19:40.615 --> 00:19:42.952
You know, that is amazing.
00:19:42.952 --> 00:19:45.646
So people come to you and say when is it that?
00:19:45.646 --> 00:19:50.773
People come to you and say how do they recognize there's something amiss?
00:19:50.773 --> 00:19:51.929
How do they find you?
00:19:51.929 --> 00:20:09.593
Because unless you've heard about post syndrome because it's talked about endlessly in places like TechCrunch and TechStuff but it's not talked about, I imagine, printing weekly or car attire monthly how do people find out they've got it, how do they find what it is and how do they come to you?
00:20:11.125 --> 00:20:12.811
So it's an educational thing.
00:20:12.811 --> 00:20:19.555
A lot of my work, my posts on LinkedIn, my blogs are educational part.
00:20:19.555 --> 00:20:25.251
This is what it post a syndrome is, this is what it looks like, this is the cause of it, this is what you can do about it.
00:20:25.251 --> 00:20:30.811
And so a lot of the time people come to me and they say, yeah, I really resonate.
00:20:30.811 --> 00:20:35.832
I completely recognize myself and I can see and I thought you're writing about me.
00:20:37.005 --> 00:20:45.971
Wow, you're leaving a trail of breadcrumbs basically across LinkedIn, right, and people come across it however they do and they go oh, that's me.
00:20:45.971 --> 00:20:48.893
And then they start looking more at what you've written.
00:20:48.893 --> 00:20:52.394
So in your book you talk about the coaches guide to imposter syndrome.
00:20:52.394 --> 00:20:55.073
Do you wanna tell us about the book and what that does?
00:20:55.964 --> 00:21:00.913
Yeah, so the book is called Unmasking when I came out in early 2018.
00:21:00.913 --> 00:21:09.548
And it's as you say, it's the coaches guide to imposter syndrome, because what I wanted to do was educate more and more people about imposter syndrome.
00:21:09.567 --> 00:21:10.854
Yes, it's not fixing the person's way.
00:21:10.854 --> 00:21:11.673
Let's educate.
00:21:12.760 --> 00:21:13.383
Exactly so.
00:21:13.383 --> 00:21:19.259
People are aware of it and coaches, and that's coaches and that's also, you know, mentors and counselors, people like that.
00:21:19.844 --> 00:21:21.715
Also, people in HR are able to recognise this.
00:21:21.715 --> 00:21:25.769
Absolutely, you know people come in saying I feel really bad at work, especially at the moment.
00:21:25.769 --> 00:21:33.230
You know, as HR have responsibilities to look after people and if they recognise this, they could probably help the business as a whole.
00:21:33.740 --> 00:21:40.259
Exactly yes, so that the reason I wrote it was this educational thing and to help coaches deal with it.
00:21:40.259 --> 00:21:53.290
Because if somebody comes to you and saying you know it's really weird but I'm not feeling very confident, then it's easy for a coach to start working on building up their confidence.
00:21:53.290 --> 00:22:02.275
I feel it, but in positive syndrome isn't a confidence issue and these people are confident because they're competent in what they do.
00:22:02.275 --> 00:22:10.748
It's just they're not feeling it and that's the difference and it's getting to that heart of it.
00:22:10.748 --> 00:22:20.933
So my goal for my book was that more people could find out and more people could know what to do and what not to do when helping people.
00:22:20.933 --> 00:22:25.279
So a multiplier effect it's really interesting, isn't it?
00:22:25.641 --> 00:22:28.705
Because one thing you said there, it's confident.
00:22:28.705 --> 00:22:31.410
So like this is just like.
00:22:31.410 --> 00:22:33.733
It's like a therapy session for me for free.
00:22:33.733 --> 00:22:37.159
Because, like confidence is not my issue, right, that's it.
00:22:37.159 --> 00:22:41.772
But inside I have, you know this.
00:22:41.792 --> 00:22:47.279
When I first read about this, I mean years ago I was like, oh yes, so that's why I'm too open and I wear my harness.
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:50.472
So I go to the pub with other founders and say I got this thing.
00:22:50.472 --> 00:22:53.926
I don't even understand how I'm here, I don't really know, I don't think I've got the skills to do this.
00:22:53.926 --> 00:22:59.074
And then, because I'm so open, some people say that's me especially.
00:22:59.074 --> 00:23:05.138
English are even more reserved than the Scots, right, so I get a little glimmer into it and then I'd poke and whatever.
00:23:05.138 --> 00:23:09.279
But everyone I know like that is incredibly confident.
00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:14.112
You know, just raise 400 and four and let's do these amazing things and change one.
00:23:14.112 --> 00:23:20.196
But I always linked the impossible into effectively in lack of confidence.
00:23:20.196 --> 00:23:21.259
But it's not actually like that.
00:23:21.259 --> 00:23:25.534
You've got the confidence for good reason, because you've done things.
00:23:25.534 --> 00:23:35.259
Some people may have overconfident, but what you're saying is internally this isn't a what's the word I'm looking for, and it's not a lack of confidence internally.
00:23:35.259 --> 00:23:37.771
It's a different system at play.
00:23:38.676 --> 00:23:38.938
Yes, yes.
00:23:39.844 --> 00:23:42.279
Actually a different part of your brain is doing a different thing.
00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:45.279
It's not confidence in the outside lack of confidence in the inside.
00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:49.272
It's actually a broken bit of you inside saying I shouldn't be doing this.
00:23:50.683 --> 00:23:53.191
Yes, I wouldn't quite guess for far as to say people are broken.
00:23:53.191 --> 00:23:54.515
Okay, it's normal, sorry.
00:23:56.642 --> 00:23:59.234
It's a normal thing that you need to address and understand.
00:23:59.234 --> 00:23:59.877
Let's fix it that way.
00:24:00.840 --> 00:24:05.830
Well, so one of the things to understand about imposter syndrome is that it's not you.
00:24:06.653 --> 00:24:06.792
Yes.
00:24:07.299 --> 00:24:09.279
That's a really, really important thing.
00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:15.009
And if we go into the neuroscience of you, know how this manifests.
00:24:15.009 --> 00:24:17.513
There's a part of the brain called the amygdala.
00:24:17.513 --> 00:24:20.446
Okay, it's just kind of behind the eyes, in front of the ears.
00:24:20.446 --> 00:24:25.651
There's two and the amygdala is like a virus checker Right.
00:24:25.651 --> 00:24:34.772
So all of the information that you come in through all of your senses and your thoughts passes first through the amygdala, because it's looking out for danger.
00:24:35.173 --> 00:24:35.453
Okay.
00:24:36.299 --> 00:24:39.564
Just doing what it's supposed to do and look out, there's a tiger behind that.
00:24:39.564 --> 00:24:40.807
I can hear the growl.
00:24:40.807 --> 00:24:48.647
Yeah, it's a very primitive system that's designed to keep you safe, and so that's always filtering the information.
00:24:48.647 --> 00:24:54.259
And then there are certain things that will trigger the amygdala.
00:24:54.259 --> 00:25:01.220
So the belief of I'm not good enough can trigger the amygdala.
00:25:01.220 --> 00:25:05.290
So it might be, because it's often in certain situations.
00:25:05.290 --> 00:25:25.115
Maybe it's doing a presentation to a particular client, maybe it's publishing your work or doing a podcast, or it can be anything like that and if the amygdala gets triggered, then it puts you into the fight, flight and freeze response.
00:25:25.460 --> 00:25:30.808
That's when your blood pressure changes your blood distribution changes and you can't think so.
00:25:30.827 --> 00:25:32.250
Brain goes foggy yeah.
00:25:32.270 --> 00:25:33.633
Brain fog and all of that.
00:25:33.633 --> 00:25:35.194
Yeah, that's exactly it.
00:25:35.194 --> 00:25:41.692
So that's really how imposter syndrome kind of manifests.
00:25:41.692 --> 00:25:48.251
And then when we look at our own behavior and go, what's wrong with me?
00:25:48.251 --> 00:25:51.446
We start judging ourselves for it.
00:25:51.446 --> 00:25:58.230
And then that's really the problem and the conclusion that we make is I'm not good enough.
00:25:58.230 --> 00:25:59.486
I can't be good enough.
00:25:59.486 --> 00:26:06.111
If I've done thousands of these presentations, why am I still freaking out about it?
00:26:06.111 --> 00:26:10.279
Why am I not speaking up in this particular meeting?
00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:14.279
I know the answers and I'm not making the contribution that I want to.
00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:17.167
You start beating yourself up for it.
00:26:17.167 --> 00:26:18.010
I'm not good enough.
00:26:18.010 --> 00:26:24.494
I've had people who talk about giving themselves a pep talk, I think trying to like the confidence thing.
00:26:24.494 --> 00:26:27.952
I'm not feeling good, so I'll give myself a pep talk.
00:26:27.952 --> 00:26:29.279
Okay, well, what does that look like?
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:34.279
Well, I tell myself I'm being stupid and I should pull myself up with myself together.
00:26:34.279 --> 00:26:37.199
That's not a pep talk, that's a beating yourself up.
00:26:37.801 --> 00:26:40.142
Mike, is that not normal, Honestly?
00:26:40.142 --> 00:26:53.192
Is that so that, okay, oh, wow, okay, I thought I was completely normal going to do presentations stand outside for five minutes shouting at yourself internally obviously and then go and do a presentation having given yourself the sort of the big talking to?
00:26:53.192 --> 00:26:54.056
Is that not normal?
00:26:54.617 --> 00:27:09.711
It's amazing, very, very, very, very common, and it's all down to us trying to make sense of how come I'm achieving so well and I'm not feeling successful, I'm not feeling like a success.
00:27:10.837 --> 00:27:13.279
So yeah, that's quite interesting, isn't it?
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:15.888
It must be awful doing this in the public eye.
00:27:15.888 --> 00:27:18.268
Do you have anyone who's in the public eye?
00:27:18.268 --> 00:27:20.259
Because that must be worse.
00:27:20.259 --> 00:27:21.967
I see it in the public eye.
00:27:21.967 --> 00:27:26.471
I'm like you know 4,000 people linked in, I mean 400,000 people on.
00:27:26.471 --> 00:27:28.807
You know decent YouTube channels, I mean because it must be even worse.
00:27:28.807 --> 00:27:34.603
The bigger gets, which is why, of course, personalities on TV used to break down, right, because they must be.
00:27:34.623 --> 00:27:37.428
I don't know if you saw the thing with George Michael, I mean the other night.
00:27:37.428 --> 00:27:38.309
Did you see that?
00:27:38.309 --> 00:27:39.031
I didn't?
00:27:39.031 --> 00:27:45.166
No, oh, there's absolutely fabulous documentary about George Michael and basically you should definitely watch this, right.
00:27:45.520 --> 00:27:50.203
So he hid behind his leather jacket and his glasses all those years, partly because he was hiding the fact he was gay.
00:27:50.203 --> 00:27:57.279
But then he didn't believe he was good enough, and the only time he did is when he went on stage Like he literally was trying to get caught with the police.
00:27:57.279 --> 00:27:59.047
He was literally trying to destroy himself.
00:27:59.047 --> 00:28:01.667
He didn't believe he deserved all the adulation and respect.
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:15.047
And, of course, when it's like on steroids, when you're one of the most famous people in the world and it seemed to me watching it the other night I was thinking of you in this podcast thinking that's what he was suffering from, like why should he be here?
00:28:15.047 --> 00:28:27.390
Because, also, andrew Ridgely was the talented one, okay, so when they did it, wow, and he wrote the songs, andrew did the stuff and he was just, he was like he was shy and inward and just tried to be a mini me right With Andrew.
00:28:27.390 --> 00:28:43.844
And then, of course, he did his own stuff and he took off and then his support, his rock, was gone because he went from one when he had Andrew to and honestly, I was watching the whole thing going this is just a great day in Posse syndrome all day long and, like, obviously it led to his death.
00:28:44.807 --> 00:28:50.394
Yes, and in the extreme situations it can lead to that.
00:28:50.394 --> 00:28:54.007
It can lead to burnout, it can lead to people ending their careers.
00:28:54.007 --> 00:28:57.387
You know just, you're walking away from the businesses.
00:28:57.387 --> 00:29:01.394
On that, there are certain level and, yeah, you do see it in celebrities.
00:29:01.394 --> 00:29:10.893
It's quite easy to see, In fact, Meryl Streep, the actress who has won more awards than anyone else in history.
00:29:10.893 --> 00:29:21.442
Yeah has talked about her own imposter syndrome and saying, when she's been offered a new part, saying, well, why would anyone want to come and see?
00:29:22.317 --> 00:29:23.320
Bloody hell.
00:29:25.740 --> 00:29:29.919
No, Albert Einstein mentioned it, Neil Armstrong, who walked on the moon.
00:29:29.919 --> 00:29:35.248
Why do I deserve to be in this group of August company?
00:29:35.248 --> 00:29:52.741
It's so common that that's what surprises me more than anything is how something can be so common and at the same time, so secret, Because it's a weakness, because I guess there's a lot of it.
00:29:52.803 --> 00:29:53.423
It's a weakness.
00:29:53.423 --> 00:29:55.298
People are like it's getting better.
00:29:55.298 --> 00:29:59.987
I mean, people didn't like topic weaknesses but it's getting a lot better in the last decade.
00:30:01.035 --> 00:30:01.616
Definitely.
00:30:01.616 --> 00:30:10.183
It's definitely improving and people assume it's a weakness, and I think that's it, that they make it mean something about them.
00:30:10.183 --> 00:30:11.346
Maybe I'm not good enough.
00:30:11.346 --> 00:30:13.823
I must be flawed, it must be a character deep.
00:30:14.174 --> 00:30:17.365
It goes back around to if I think this is a weakness, it's because I'm not good enough.
00:30:17.836 --> 00:30:19.663
Yes, yes, so it reinforces it.
00:30:19.663 --> 00:30:23.604
But imposter syndrome is like having a nail in your shoe.
00:30:23.604 --> 00:30:28.420
You walk along, it's painful, you can try and ignore it.
00:30:28.420 --> 00:30:34.249
It's not going to go away and it'll keep coming back the more you try to pressure on it.
00:30:34.249 --> 00:30:36.174
You know go faster, go further.
00:30:36.234 --> 00:30:38.221
You're going to have to stop and reassess the shoe.
00:30:38.914 --> 00:30:40.378
Exactly, exactly.
00:30:40.378 --> 00:30:44.367
So the solution whether you see it as the shoe is really obvious.
00:30:44.367 --> 00:30:48.122
You take the nail out With imposter syndrome.
00:30:48.122 --> 00:30:51.087
You've got this pain, this stress, this discomfort.
00:30:51.087 --> 00:30:55.987
You can't see anything obvious for it, you can't explain it very well.
00:30:55.987 --> 00:30:58.098
So you think it must be you.
00:30:58.098 --> 00:31:03.381
You think it must be, you think the nail is you, and so you don't even look for a solution.
00:31:03.381 --> 00:31:04.503
You're just trying to hide.
00:31:04.503 --> 00:31:05.567
You're just trying to hide it.
00:31:06.474 --> 00:31:07.337
Yes, that makes sense.
00:31:07.337 --> 00:31:14.123
The nail doesn't exist because it's just you, and until you, and then when you identify the nail does exist, then you can.
00:31:14.123 --> 00:31:17.262
You can address it Like a lot of mental issues.
00:31:17.262 --> 00:31:22.371
Really, you know it's just you until you identify that it's not actually just you and there's something you can do about it.
00:31:22.371 --> 00:31:24.157
Yes, so how'd you go about?
00:31:24.157 --> 00:31:25.883
What can you do about it?
00:31:28.365 --> 00:31:29.414
Yes, that's the question.
00:31:29.977 --> 00:31:31.039
The obvious next question.
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:32.484
I've got a nail help.
00:31:33.476 --> 00:31:48.382
Well, the very first part is, like you said, about the education, knowing about it and knowing that it's not you, it's a nail, it's something external to you, it's a belief that you never un and beliefs can be unknown.
00:31:48.382 --> 00:31:53.133
So then you can manage imposter syndrome.
00:31:53.133 --> 00:31:55.077
So this is, without taking the nail out.
00:31:55.077 --> 00:32:02.457
You can work to work with your nervous system and work with ways of calming your nervous system.
00:32:02.457 --> 00:32:08.557
That's going to help you have less extreme reactions to the stress of it, so that's going to be useful.
00:32:09.179 --> 00:32:10.863
And the other part is to get support.
00:32:10.863 --> 00:32:14.038
So that'd be something to talk things through with.
00:32:14.038 --> 00:32:27.999
And support can even be logistical support in terms of organizing your life and getting someone in to do the chores, just so that you've got more time and less stress and you're more able to manage.
00:32:27.999 --> 00:32:35.258
So getting calm and getting more support is how you can manage imposter syndrome.
00:32:35.258 --> 00:32:41.075
And then the ultimate way to get rid of it is to change that belief.
00:32:41.075 --> 00:32:59.923
There are systematic ways that you can change the belief and make it so it doesn't trigger that amygdala in your brain that you're looking out for the danger, so that the things that you previously labeled as danger aren't danger.
00:32:59.923 --> 00:33:07.250
So you can see, it's not about standing in front of the mirror like Superman and saying good enough, I'm all right.
00:33:07.289 --> 00:33:08.515
Thank you, I'm sorted now, yeah.
00:33:09.296 --> 00:33:12.001
Yeah, it doesn't work because you're amygdala still got it.
00:33:12.001 --> 00:33:22.288
You have to actually do work that actually works through the way that the brain works and the way the brain is designed to work.
00:33:22.288 --> 00:33:31.801
And so what happens when you get rid of it is then the confidence internal, how you're feeling is effortless.
00:33:31.801 --> 00:33:34.968
It's like you forget to doubt yourself.
00:33:36.097 --> 00:33:39.852
Yes, it's not like you need more confidence to fix the thing at the bottom.
00:33:39.852 --> 00:33:41.979
What you just need is, like, the balance in the middle.
00:33:41.979 --> 00:33:46.391
So I think a lot of people hide this fact.
00:33:46.391 --> 00:33:50.730
With more confidence, I don't feel confident, so therefore I'll be more confident on the outside.
00:33:50.730 --> 00:33:55.209
So actually, what you don't need is that you can just bring that back because you've addressed the issue.
00:33:55.209 --> 00:33:56.976
So I am just me.
00:33:56.976 --> 00:33:58.521
I can go and do this podcast.
00:33:58.521 --> 00:34:05.103
I'm quite happy because I no longer stress and worry about the responsibility on the guests.
00:34:05.103 --> 00:34:12.447
It becomes less of a guilt and more of a fact, like, if you come on, you will get this, I will get that and we will have a great time.
00:34:12.447 --> 00:34:15.697
Yeah, and you just almost like you neutered the thing.
00:34:16.838 --> 00:34:17.820
Yes, exactly.
00:34:17.820 --> 00:34:30.398
And when you turn down that noise and destruction of the double tracking of imposter syndrome, when you turn all that down, what emerges is all your natural talents and stress.
00:34:30.398 --> 00:34:33.925
You start doing a podcast because it's a lot of fun.
00:34:34.226 --> 00:34:45.478
Yeah, because you know it's a positive and business development way of but you can see across all spectrums of business sectors and all roles.
00:34:45.478 --> 00:35:01.527
I could see how, if you take away the Whether you're fixing it with overconfidence, or fixing it with overanalyzing, or over present preparation or over All these things are just grinding you down slowly, right In the back of your mind.
00:35:01.527 --> 00:35:05.521
That's what they're doing Energy, brain power, brain time.
00:35:05.521 --> 00:35:13.204
What you're saying is you start to address that nail that takes away the sort of gulf between the two ends.
00:35:13.204 --> 00:35:30.179
One end is your over-prep or over-confidence that you're producing, and then there's your actual, your anxiety around it and you sort of bring them together so you're just in a nice sort of state of flow, really as you, without the wave of the roller coaster that goes with it.
00:35:30.179 --> 00:35:32.648
Is that, without me, a good assumption?
00:35:33.070 --> 00:35:36.699
That's a great way of putting it and certainly that roller coaster.
00:35:36.699 --> 00:35:45.460
What happens with that roller coaster is that it becomes shallower roller coaster.
00:35:45.460 --> 00:35:49.827
You don't get so obsessed with the highs.
00:35:49.827 --> 00:35:59.235
You enjoy them without women making you a little bit crazy, and then you don't get so dragged down by the lows.
00:35:59.235 --> 00:36:12.045
So it's building your resilience and that's what human beings are naturally resilient, and that's our adaptability as one of our greatest features.
00:36:12.045 --> 00:36:21.215
And the more we can clear that distraction from our mind and positive syndrome, the more resilient and capable we're going to be.
00:36:21.215 --> 00:36:33.235
And basically, the more we're going to enjoy things, we're going to enjoy the success, enjoy the view at the top of the mountain and go, wow, isn't this amazing?
00:36:33.255 --> 00:36:35.284
Because a lot of people don't enjoy where they are.
00:36:35.284 --> 00:36:39.840
They can have raised money or they've built their business or they've done really well.
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:46.900
They're a partner, legal firm and a lot of people who have to the average person, including me.
00:36:46.900 --> 00:36:51.224
I look at them and think that's awesome, well done, but they're not enjoying themselves.
00:36:51.224 --> 00:36:56.764
In fact, they're desperate to get out, which is why you see all these high achievers bailing out to go what to kept man doing stuff?
00:36:56.764 --> 00:36:58.679
Because actually they're running away from it.
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:01.610
That's the saddest thing.
00:37:02.112 --> 00:37:08.233
So I've got to ask you, I want to ask you how people can actually get in touch with you Before I do.
00:37:08.233 --> 00:37:17.434
I've got to ask because has the last 18 months changed anything about people's behaviour?
00:37:17.434 --> 00:37:18.034
Who have got this?
00:37:18.034 --> 00:37:26.820
Because now you don't have to be face to face, you've only got to do Zoom for however many hours a day, or not at all if you're really lucky.
00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:36.998
Has that impacted people's behaviour, people's response to having this, or people who you know, who you've been treating and talking to, who have got it?
00:37:36.998 --> 00:37:40.887
Have they found it easier or harder?
00:37:42.094 --> 00:37:43.719
So it's a bit of both.
00:37:43.719 --> 00:38:00.134
So for people for whom presentations of being in the spotlight is the most difficult thing, then many of them find that the distance, by not being there in person, makes it a little bit easier.
00:38:00.369 --> 00:38:01.740
Okay that's interesting.
00:38:02.242 --> 00:38:06.711
So you can say this is part of that, hiding part of it.
00:38:06.711 --> 00:38:08.034
Hiding can be not speaking up.
00:38:08.034 --> 00:38:12.465
Hiding can be literally being more distant.
00:38:12.465 --> 00:38:17.440
What happens with the Zoom is particularly when you're in a meeting.
00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:23.427
You're always there, right, there's always that little square with you and you can't even hide it from yourself.
00:38:23.447 --> 00:38:42.514
Yeah, you can't hide it from yourself unless you don't look at your own screen and that can make some people feel even more put on the spot, even more like somebody is going to catch them out, because if you're in a meeting, somebody speaks who's looking at that person?
00:38:42.514 --> 00:38:45.108
Who's speaking in a Zoom meeting?
00:38:45.108 --> 00:38:47.474
Everybody's still there on the screen.
00:38:47.474 --> 00:38:50.875
So everybody's seeing everybody's reaction the whole time.
00:38:50.875 --> 00:38:57.458
So people feel more under the microscope and more vulnerable to being caught out.
00:38:57.458 --> 00:39:02.271
So that's what I've seen in my clients, so it has changed things.
00:39:02.271 --> 00:39:12.534
Some people are feeling good about the space that they're getting because they're not having to commute, they've got a good space at home to work.
00:39:12.534 --> 00:39:20.333
And other people are feeling very stressful In terms of the nervous system in the brain.
00:39:20.333 --> 00:39:27.572
What happens is that we regulate our nervous system by the other people around us.
00:39:27.572 --> 00:39:36.684
So if you were a group of cavemen in a cave and one of them jumped and went, ah, then everybody would look sad.
00:39:36.965 --> 00:39:37.365
Everyone jumps.
00:39:37.365 --> 00:39:38.791
He comes to see the two tiger guys.
00:39:39.152 --> 00:39:40.264
Exactly so.
00:39:40.264 --> 00:39:45.128
We're kind of like an external extension of our own nervous system right, We've got bigger alert.
00:39:45.128 --> 00:40:04.570
And the opposite happens when you're with someone who's calm and relaxed and playful or laughing or something like that, and it tends to calm and relax you because they're behaviors that are you know there's not a tiger in the roof they're safety behaviors.
00:40:04.570 --> 00:40:11.737
So we calm each other down or we can stir each other up by our own nervous system.
00:40:11.737 --> 00:40:34.101
We get far less cues from other people when we're on Zoom, so if you're in a meeting, your brain would be picking up everybody's body language Every little twitch or eyebrow rakes, even if you're not delivering or if there's a little breast inside, because you don't get that with the Zoom meeting.
00:40:34.302 --> 00:40:38.489
You know people are like you speak, but you can see them, so you can't see that.
00:40:38.489 --> 00:40:39.753
They're micro expressions.
00:40:40.304 --> 00:40:46.072
You know you can't see the fingers on the desk, the way they tap the phone or the way the pen starts twitching through the hand.
00:40:46.072 --> 00:40:47.371
It's all that stuff that's missing, isn't?
00:40:47.391 --> 00:40:47.431
it.
00:40:47.431 --> 00:40:58.239
It's that kind of stuff and because there's so much noise distraction you can't hear, you know the change in breathing patterns.
00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:01.373
There are all these clues that you get from people around you.
00:41:01.373 --> 00:41:11.528
So being isolated in terms of being away from people like that is more stressful for the nervous system.
00:41:12.744 --> 00:41:18.550
So if people feel they have this and they want to like have a conversation, buy your book, try and understand it.
00:41:18.550 --> 00:41:21.391
Where's the best place to reach out to you?
00:41:22.625 --> 00:41:23.929
So the book is on Amazon.
00:41:23.929 --> 00:41:34.052
Unmasking my website is completesuccesscouk and I'm also on LinkedIn.
00:41:34.713 --> 00:41:35.195
And you're very.
00:41:35.195 --> 00:41:36.887
I've seen a lot of your LinkedIn stuff.
00:41:36.887 --> 00:41:39.173
It's really good, yeah, thank you.
00:41:39.173 --> 00:41:40.797
It gets a lot of interactions.
00:41:40.797 --> 00:41:42.552
Everybody goes oh, that's me.
00:41:43.626 --> 00:41:46.255
Well, it's interesting because some do and some don't.
00:41:46.255 --> 00:41:55.911
A lot of people would never put that on a public forum and in fact, what I do with my clients is on LinkedIn.
00:41:55.911 --> 00:42:02.512
I never comment on their posts like their posts make me kind of Wow, of course.
00:42:02.512 --> 00:42:10.918
Because you know, my tagline says it includes imposter syndrome specialists.
00:42:10.918 --> 00:42:14.835
They don't want to be having an insiposter syndrome.
00:42:14.835 --> 00:42:16.710
Congratulations on your new job.
00:42:16.710 --> 00:42:17.251
How great.
00:42:17.251 --> 00:42:19.536
Yeah, though I send them a private message.
00:42:19.577 --> 00:42:20.545
I don't do anything public.
00:42:20.545 --> 00:42:21.690
Oh, that's interesting.
00:42:21.690 --> 00:42:22.728
People still not confident.
00:42:22.728 --> 00:42:33.813
You've helped me fix my anxiety issues around my performance, but still, please don't comment on that on LinkedIn, because I would be admitting what I've perceived to be a weakness, which isn't a weakness which we discussed earlier.
00:42:34.867 --> 00:42:37.114
But they feel comfortable in on the sales.
00:42:37.114 --> 00:42:41.815
But not everybody knows that it's not a weakness.
00:42:41.815 --> 00:42:43.550
Everyone still treats it as a weakness.
00:42:43.550 --> 00:42:48.411
So there's this stigma that's going to be around for, I'd imagine, quite some time.
00:42:48.766 --> 00:42:49.628
Oh, I'd be all yeah.
00:42:50.844 --> 00:42:58.572
And it's ridiculous because you know this is 70% are aware of it, and that's men and women equally.
00:42:59.246 --> 00:43:01.304
But the weakness thing isn't just imposter syndrome.
00:43:01.304 --> 00:43:04.454
The weakness thing is this weird business thing that you've got to be vulnerable.
00:43:04.454 --> 00:43:12.452
You've got to be the brad bit of bosses, you've got to be the champion ever.
00:43:12.452 --> 00:43:19.652
You've got to be this invincible, tough skinned, and part of that crap comes from things like Dragon's Den.
00:43:19.652 --> 00:43:23.992
You know this nonsense, shouting match of like.
00:43:23.992 --> 00:43:26.586
Oh well, if you think that you're rubbish, off you go.
00:43:26.586 --> 00:43:29.351
Mr Trunky, you know 100 million Trunky sales later.
00:43:29.351 --> 00:43:39.452
So on that note, if you think you have any of the characteristics of imposter syndrome and you would like to talk to me about it, completesuccesscom.
00:43:39.452 --> 00:43:41.329
Tara, thank you for being on the show.
00:43:42.186 --> 00:43:43.829
It's been absolutely fascinating.
00:43:43.829 --> 00:43:44.632
Thank you very much.
00:43:45.132 --> 00:44:13.844
Trish Cut Loved it, All your love.
00:44:13.844 --> 00:44:14.605
Supermaniacs are always, always right.
00:44:14.605 --> 00:44:15.648
You.
00:00:12.218 --> 00:00:12.359
MUSIC.
00:00:12.359 --> 00:00:14.907
So hi Tara, welcome to Confirmed TV.
00:00:15.821 --> 00:00:17.789
Thank you very much, alistair, great to be here.
00:00:18.120 --> 00:00:20.469
Yes, and I've wanted to have you on the show for quite a long time.
00:00:20.469 --> 00:00:23.460
Tara is an author and an expert.
00:00:23.460 --> 00:00:32.826
She has a PhD and her specialisation is in imposter syndrome, something which a lot of my listeners will all pretend doesn't happen to them, but we all know it actually does.
00:00:32.826 --> 00:00:44.491
So I think the key thing is, tara, is we all have a view of what imposter syndrome is based on the probably a lot of nonsense that we see on LinkedIn and various channels.
00:00:44.491 --> 00:00:47.468
Could you actually start by telling us what it actually is?
00:00:48.600 --> 00:01:00.250
Yes, so imposter syndrome is the secret feeling of being fraught and not good enough when you're not, and it's the fear, on top of that, of being found out.
00:01:00.250 --> 00:01:04.510
And that is the heart of imposter syndrome.
00:01:04.819 --> 00:01:05.462
So that's quite interesting.
00:01:05.462 --> 00:01:28.888
I hadn't thought of the when you're not so, because I always thought you had it regardless of success, or you just feel you're doing this thing, you don't know how you got there, you don't deserve it, was the thing I kind of took away from it and you're saying actually I can have this thing and I can actually be a success and I can still really badly suffer from this.
00:01:29.721 --> 00:01:31.284
Absolutely.
00:01:31.284 --> 00:01:40.471
If you weren't good enough, if you genuinely weren't good enough or you felt like that in all areas of your life, we'd call that low self-esteem.
00:01:40.471 --> 00:01:45.370
And it wouldn't be, then, a high achiever?
00:01:45.631 --> 00:01:45.871
Yes.
00:01:46.180 --> 00:01:54.909
Imposter syndrome shows up most in high achievers, when they're really trying to stretch themselves or really get something remarkable done.
00:01:56.141 --> 00:02:02.609
And that's why it's so confusing for people, because it's obvious, because if it's low self-esteem, I'm just rubbish at everything.
00:02:02.609 --> 00:02:12.349
But actually it's high achievers who are saying I don't know why I think I'm good at I'm being told I'm good at this thing, but I don't really believe that I am.
00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:27.671
Definitely that's it, because intellectually, logically, you know you're good enough, but you're just not feeling it on the inside, and so there's this gap in your brain that creates a lot of confusion.
00:02:28.781 --> 00:02:41.788
Is it linked to the fact that some high achievers, well, we quite open and say I am a high achiever because of something that happened in my past, or my appearance was incredibly poor and I was driven not to be like that, or I had trouble in early life.
00:02:41.788 --> 00:02:49.907
So, therefore, the drive to which has made them a high achiever is not linked to the fact that they've recognised in their brain that they're a high achiever.
00:02:51.322 --> 00:03:00.433
It's a sense of not feeling good enough, and that can come from a challenging childhood, for example.
00:03:00.433 --> 00:03:02.247
Definitely that's one of the drivers.
00:03:02.247 --> 00:03:11.525
But you can also get it if you're somebody who had every possible opportunity and a luxurious childhood.
00:03:11.525 --> 00:03:13.210
A sense of not feeling good enough.
00:03:13.210 --> 00:03:19.651
People would automatically assume that you got the job because your dad knows somebody.
00:03:19.651 --> 00:03:23.867
So it does go across the board.
00:03:23.867 --> 00:03:32.173
But that sense of I'm not quite good enough, that my worth depends on what I do.
00:03:32.173 --> 00:03:42.052
That is the belief that underlies all of imposter syndrome and that is basically the way our society is set up.
00:03:42.052 --> 00:03:52.051
It's something that, unless you unlearn it as a young child, then you carry it with you as an unconscious belief and it gets reinforced in everything that we do.
00:03:52.500 --> 00:03:56.170
So you're saying that we actually learn this as a child and we just take it with us.
00:03:56.170 --> 00:04:02.900
It's not something like oh my goodness, I've sold to Google for a hundred million and people are saying I was the best found in the world.
00:04:02.900 --> 00:04:05.307
I have no idea and I don't really believe it myself.
00:04:05.307 --> 00:04:08.606
Are you saying, actually it isn't.
00:04:08.606 --> 00:04:11.775
When you get over, I'll call it over promoted?
00:04:11.775 --> 00:04:22.271
That's what always happened to me in the past when you get over promoted and you feel you should be doing it, or is it actually something you've learned way, way, way before as a child, in school or whatever?
00:04:23.822 --> 00:04:27.019
It's an unconscious belief, so most people aren't aware of it.
00:04:27.019 --> 00:04:29.428
Some people are definitely aware of it.
00:04:29.428 --> 00:04:31.026
Oh, I don't feel like I'm good enough.
00:04:31.026 --> 00:04:32.404
Most people, it's all conscious.
00:04:32.404 --> 00:04:40.372
So, as you're a young child, when you're a baby, you don't have a sense of I a sense of myself.
00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:49.274
And actually that takes quite a little while to actually generate that sense of I.
00:04:49.274 --> 00:04:57.367
And so, as you're starting to be socialized, if you think of a two-year-old, you should be quite with the world.
00:04:57.367 --> 00:05:04.132
There is this part where you don't have a distinction between yourself and your actions.
00:05:05.362 --> 00:05:06.848
Yes, that's what I call the furniture.
00:05:07.581 --> 00:05:08.442
Yeah.
00:05:08.442 --> 00:05:20.627
So when you get told don't do that which could be the good reasons, like running out in front of the car I would stop, hold back or don't do that or that's bad.
00:05:20.627 --> 00:05:22.853
We take it as I'm bad.
00:05:22.853 --> 00:05:26.028
So if I do something good, I am good.
00:05:26.028 --> 00:05:27.826
If I do something bad, I am bad.
00:05:27.826 --> 00:05:47.547
So that's the fundamental idea that you're worth as a human being is conditional, and unless you get explicitly taught that as a young child, when you develop that sense, of I a separation between worse and behavior, then we just carry it forwards.
00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:57.403
And then it just disappears in your teenager, I'm guessing, a lot of the time, and it pops back out when you find yourself as a grown-up Does that be fair.
00:05:59.101 --> 00:06:11.970
It will show up in different ways at all stages, that sense of not feeling good enough, and with higher chiefers it's not in everything.
00:06:11.970 --> 00:06:19.074
It often just shows up in one particular area of their lives or area of their work.
00:06:20.175 --> 00:06:21.358
It is a strange thing, isn't it?
00:06:21.358 --> 00:06:34.805
Because I've spoken to many founders over the years and I think, when you've had a few beers, some of them will be more honest than others, and I actually believe there's a little bit of self-doubt.
00:06:34.805 --> 00:06:36.627
And then there's this thing underneath it.
00:06:36.627 --> 00:06:39.202
So I think there's a little bit of self-doubt, like how did I get here?
00:06:39.202 --> 00:06:47.485
Like I spoke to one and raised five million the other day, and he's kind of like it was just an idea, but I don't think he's got any doubts in his ability to do it.
00:06:47.485 --> 00:06:50.903
He doesn't really feel like imposter syndrome is just like oh shit.
00:06:52.454 --> 00:06:59.427
And then I've met others who really are doing it and have been honest and said I don't understand.
00:06:59.427 --> 00:07:03.276
I'm doing this thing, I feel like I'm going through the motions, but I don't deserve to be here.
00:07:03.276 --> 00:07:06.384
I don't understand him here and I'm not really sure I can do it.
00:07:06.384 --> 00:07:10.846
And this is despite having like 200 staff, and that is terrifying.
00:07:10.846 --> 00:07:12.461
That's not terrifying, that's harsh.
00:07:12.461 --> 00:07:18.555
It's weird, though, that they kind of wake up oh my God, get in the car, drive to the office now.
00:07:18.555 --> 00:07:20.182
Hey guys, let's get this thing done.
00:07:20.182 --> 00:07:26.098
And it's kind of like inside there's something going help, right, and that's 200 staff.
00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:30.021
That's it, and bigger and bigger and bigger.
00:07:31.115 --> 00:07:39.459
I work with corporate executives and founders and thousands, of, tens of thousands of staff Billions of others group CEOs.
00:07:39.538 --> 00:07:49.024
I mean it's something that as you get to that higher levels, it shows up more because imposter syndrome comes and goes.
00:07:49.574 --> 00:07:52.701
It must be worse the bigger, because it's almost like this.
00:07:52.701 --> 00:07:55.288
It must be worse the bigger the responsibility.
00:07:55.288 --> 00:08:01.427
But definition if I run BP, I kind of wake up one day and I'm 45 and I'm running BP.
00:08:01.427 --> 00:08:07.704
I must you've got to think it's a dream some days, or how did that happen?
00:08:07.704 --> 00:08:10.108
Or I can't do this Right.
00:08:10.108 --> 00:08:21.403
Just I mean, if you imagine and this is here we'll come back to this good question I've got in my head here, I mean that must just be the case that you think why am I running 45,000 people in a $100 billion business or whatever the crazy numbers are?
00:08:22.115 --> 00:08:23.059
Because how did you get there?
00:08:23.059 --> 00:08:25.603
Because the time passes so fast?
00:08:25.603 --> 00:08:37.880
There must be this time thing where time passes fast when you're busy and high achievers work really hard, the higher work rates because they're not working their cycling or going to gym or something, and then they just get there really quickly.
00:08:37.880 --> 00:08:44.841
For the sake of people who aren't watching on YouTube, I'm doing my hand and I kind of up into the right kind of graph way, so really fast to get there.
00:08:44.841 --> 00:08:45.576
What feels really fast?
00:08:45.576 --> 00:08:47.383
Actually, 20 years, wake up one day running BP.
00:08:47.383 --> 00:08:51.019
Oh shit, that must happen a lot, I'm guessing.
00:08:51.942 --> 00:08:53.155
Absolutely so.
00:08:53.155 --> 00:08:54.761
There's two kind of effects in there.
00:08:54.761 --> 00:09:01.267
One is the you know if you're climbing a mountain right and you just next step, next step, next step.
00:09:01.267 --> 00:09:06.485
Yes, that's much better, and then you stop, we've come around and you go, wow, look at that.
00:09:06.485 --> 00:09:13.825
And for you that's incredible and gosh, I can't believe that I've got to this level.
00:09:13.825 --> 00:09:21.437
And that doesn't have to be about doubting yourself, that can just be.
00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:23.684
wow, isn't this amazing?
00:09:23.684 --> 00:09:30.278
How I never would have thought that from back there in the valley there would have been this view up here.
00:09:30.278 --> 00:09:36.073
How it's exhilarating, because success and really stretching and challenging yourself is exhilarating.
00:09:36.073 --> 00:09:38.202
You think, gosh, this is great.
00:09:38.202 --> 00:09:43.125
It's when you start making it mean something about you, right?
00:09:43.125 --> 00:09:47.044
I mean, oh my gosh, do I deserve this?
00:09:47.044 --> 00:09:55.947
Maybe I don't deserve this, maybe it was a fluke, maybe I just got lucky and maybe people are going to find me out.
00:09:55.947 --> 00:09:59.363
I just you know, it was just a series of rolls of the dice.
00:10:00.465 --> 00:10:00.926
Which it was.
00:10:01.534 --> 00:10:03.942
And somebody's going to find out, and that's that.
00:10:04.775 --> 00:10:16.017
When you look at this as a sort of from an actual education point of view, my, my, my amateur point of view, would say it is a bunch of rolls of the dice, right, but is it?
00:10:17.220 --> 00:10:17.399
Yes.
00:10:17.760 --> 00:10:18.481
Do you think it is?
00:10:18.481 --> 00:10:19.826
I mean from the door?
00:10:19.845 --> 00:10:29.544
No, so people think it's a roll of the dice, that it's nothing to do with them, because they discount their own talents and their own skills.
00:10:29.544 --> 00:10:31.942
They say, oh, everyone could have done it.
00:10:31.942 --> 00:10:34.783
I think, oh, I just got lucky right.
00:10:34.783 --> 00:10:39.285
So that might just sound polite or humble or something like that.
00:10:39.285 --> 00:10:44.846
But the fact is they have worked and intellectually they know that they have worked.
00:10:44.846 --> 00:10:49.504
They have worked down hard, they have worked and really put in the effort.
00:10:49.504 --> 00:10:53.144
They have got natural talent, natural skills.
00:10:53.144 --> 00:10:59.047
They have learned some really good ways of either analyzing things or dealing with people.
00:10:59.047 --> 00:11:01.701
They have been particularly creative.
00:11:01.701 --> 00:11:04.278
So they have genuinely achieved it.
00:11:04.278 --> 00:11:12.322
Because you don't get to be the head of a large company without having some ability.
00:11:13.134 --> 00:11:13.556
Is that?
00:11:13.556 --> 00:11:14.116
Is that?
00:11:14.116 --> 00:11:15.200
Do you see that?
00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:24.135
That it appears more of people who don't have an actual expertise than those who do Like if I'm the CTO, I can do coding, I can.
00:11:24.135 --> 00:11:26.303
I've come from a coding background, I can do that.
00:11:26.303 --> 00:11:32.620
If I'm the CEO, the chances are I have not got that skill, I have not got the accountancy skills, I've not got the HR skills.
00:11:32.620 --> 00:11:40.100
Does it appear more in the generalists who tend to run things, than the people who are like the CTO of BP, for example?
00:11:41.241 --> 00:11:42.143
It makes no difference.
00:11:42.683 --> 00:11:45.229
Oh, wow, okay, I wasn't expecting that.
00:11:45.229 --> 00:11:49.501
I was expecting, yeah, generalists are a bit vague, so it doesn't make any difference.
00:11:49.914 --> 00:11:50.956
No, because, because.
00:11:50.956 --> 00:12:02.407
So one of the classic imposter syndrome behaviors is perfectionism, and one form of perfectionism is knowledge perfectionism.
00:12:02.407 --> 00:12:04.894
I must be right, I must know everything.
00:12:05.697 --> 00:12:15.447
So you can be highly technically skilled, you can be CEO with a tech background and still feel like I don't know everything.
00:12:15.447 --> 00:12:26.104
And what you do then is you would ever prepare for any kind of meeting presentation, something like that, so you put way more into it than it warrants.
00:12:26.104 --> 00:12:38.592
You'd work far harder to make sure that you have every single answer, just in case someone else, so that they won't catch you out, so that you won't be wrong.
00:12:39.386 --> 00:12:40.192
Protect your shell.
00:12:40.192 --> 00:12:43.312
Yeah yeah, it's like you're an egg in a delicate shell.
00:12:43.312 --> 00:12:45.633
You got to put the armor up in case somebody pokes a hole in it.
00:12:46.145 --> 00:12:46.687
That's it.
00:12:47.028 --> 00:12:47.350
Wow.
00:12:47.350 --> 00:12:57.595
So one of the things we're going to talk about is how do you spot it, and off the back of that I would like to talk about is it a good or a bad thing in the workplace?
00:12:57.595 --> 00:12:59.251
So let's go with how do you spot it first.
00:12:59.251 --> 00:13:01.832
This is for yourself, not for how you spot it on other people.
00:13:02.485 --> 00:13:03.368
Yeah.
00:13:03.368 --> 00:13:09.289
So trying to spot it in other people, just saying that is going to be very difficult because people hide it.
00:13:09.289 --> 00:13:11.371
I see it as one part of it.
00:13:11.371 --> 00:13:17.731
And so many of my clients say that everyone around them is telling them how competent they are.
00:13:18.306 --> 00:13:19.390
How competent they are.
00:13:20.447 --> 00:13:26.005
So it's a case of more like you're disregarding that feedback, so how do you spot it in yourself There'll?
00:13:26.187 --> 00:13:27.851
be, two or three typical ways.
00:13:27.851 --> 00:13:33.817
One is in terms of the stress itself, your physiology.
00:13:33.817 --> 00:13:44.196
So the stress of imposter syndrome can trigger the fight, flight and freeze response and so that is the physiological.
00:13:44.196 --> 00:13:54.924
Your blood pressure changes, you get less blood flow to your thinking part of your brain and you might go blank.
00:13:54.924 --> 00:13:57.794
You literally can't think or you're not making this good decision.
00:13:57.794 --> 00:14:00.004
So there's things like that in there.
00:14:00.004 --> 00:14:04.812
So you'll feel you're off your game or you'll feel you're more reactive.
00:14:04.812 --> 00:14:26.011
The emotions that go with that would be you get angry more easily or more impatient, you get anxiety or you can't sleep at night, dread one day morning, or you get this sense of overwhelm and that's when you go into the freeze state and it's procrastination and things like that.
00:14:26.011 --> 00:14:28.044
So that's all the physiology.
00:14:28.044 --> 00:14:30.293
So some people just notice that part of it.
00:14:30.293 --> 00:14:33.125
They just notice that you know I'm very stressed.
00:14:33.125 --> 00:14:36.033
This is hard work, this is harder than it should be.
00:14:36.033 --> 00:14:37.850
That's the feeling.
00:14:37.850 --> 00:14:49.934
The other part is the imposter syndrome behaviors and that's like the perfectionism I mentioned, the over-preparing there is.
00:14:50.424 --> 00:14:53.474
Covering your cracks for not feeling like you're very good, basically.
00:14:55.696 --> 00:14:55.878
Yeah.
00:14:55.878 --> 00:15:01.015
So that's the kind of thing you might avoid situations, avoid promotions.
00:15:01.015 --> 00:15:20.211
You know I was talking to one client and he you know business advisor and he said he's imposter syndrome and cost him 100,000 pounds a year for the last three years because he hadn't gone for particular contracts, because he didn't feel he was good enough.
00:15:20.211 --> 00:15:29.904
Another would be didn't go for a particular promotion because he couldn't take every single box rather than just be graded all of it.
00:15:29.904 --> 00:15:33.674
So you know it has a very real consequence in that sense.
00:15:35.267 --> 00:15:36.048
So who gets it?
00:15:36.048 --> 00:15:36.711
Is there a type?
00:15:36.711 --> 00:15:39.638
There is no the question there.
00:15:39.638 --> 00:15:40.965
It's a great question.
00:15:40.965 --> 00:15:43.514
Well, yes, there's a few answers to this question.
00:15:43.514 --> 00:15:44.951
Let's start with just who gets it.
00:15:45.567 --> 00:15:46.149
Who gets it?
00:15:46.149 --> 00:15:52.691
So 70% of high achievers experience imposter syndrome at some point in life.
00:15:52.691 --> 00:16:01.254
That they recognize, that they recognize, that's a very good catch, because there are people who are in denial.
00:16:01.254 --> 00:16:03.629
They would never admit to it.
00:16:03.629 --> 00:16:18.011
There are people who don't recognize it in themselves and so they're oblivious to it, and there are people who avoid a particular situation that might trigger their imposter syndrome.
00:16:18.385 --> 00:16:18.488
OK.
00:16:18.488 --> 00:16:23.914
So this is an example of a situation where that might occur.
00:16:25.205 --> 00:16:36.730
So a high challenge situation can be starting a business, getting some investment, getting a promotion or getting a big project, so something like that.
00:16:36.730 --> 00:16:47.650
Long support can be simply that you don't have anyone like a mentor or something that you can go to to talk things through.
00:16:47.650 --> 00:16:53.032
Or an extreme version of low support is when you're in a toxic work environment.
00:16:53.131 --> 00:16:53.393
Yes.
00:16:53.904 --> 00:17:03.153
So you've got a bully in the workplace and things like that, and imposter syndrome tends to come and go when you've got a culmination of high challenge and low support.
00:17:03.153 --> 00:17:09.173
I wouldn't necessarily say it shows up in how you interact with the people around you.
00:17:09.555 --> 00:17:09.654
OK.
00:17:09.944 --> 00:17:11.951
Because it's not that easy to spot.
00:17:11.951 --> 00:17:16.476
There is a sense of isolation with a positive syndrome.
00:17:16.684 --> 00:17:18.152
Because everyone keeps it a secret.
00:17:18.152 --> 00:17:20.071
When you feel it, you think it's just you.
00:17:20.071 --> 00:17:22.310
Yes, nobody else gets this.
00:17:22.310 --> 00:17:27.184
Or if they don't get it nearly as bad as me.
00:17:27.184 --> 00:17:33.712
So this is just a big feeling of isolation and it's inexplicable.
00:17:33.712 --> 00:17:35.868
It's inexplicable.
00:17:35.868 --> 00:17:39.814
You don't really understand why.
00:17:39.814 --> 00:17:43.782
So you try and think why am I feeling?
00:17:43.782 --> 00:17:45.108
What's different about me?
00:17:45.664 --> 00:17:49.876
And then people can start creating more sorts of stories.
00:17:49.876 --> 00:17:51.852
They're looking for this cause and effect.
00:17:51.852 --> 00:17:52.653
I'm feeling bad.
00:17:52.653 --> 00:17:53.750
Why am I feeling bad?
00:17:53.750 --> 00:17:55.310
They're looking for something obvious.
00:17:55.310 --> 00:17:57.612
There's often something outside of them.
00:17:57.612 --> 00:18:03.153
Maybe I didn't get good enough education All of these have got this qualification or I haven't.
00:18:03.153 --> 00:18:05.451
Maybe I need to get more qualifications.
00:18:05.451 --> 00:18:12.711
Maybe I have the wrong accent, maybe I've come from the wrong part of the country or the wrong part of the world.
00:18:12.711 --> 00:18:15.575
So we're looking for these logical reasons for it.
00:18:15.575 --> 00:18:20.876
We're not looking inside at the fundamental cause of it.
00:18:20.876 --> 00:18:22.570
We're just trying to connect the dots.
00:18:22.570 --> 00:18:28.891
So all of that just increases that sense of isolation and that it must be just me.
00:18:28.891 --> 00:18:33.230
And then from that you can conclude there must be something wrong with me.
00:18:33.230 --> 00:18:34.470
Maybe I'm not good enough.
00:18:34.945 --> 00:18:37.753
Maybe I don't belong at this level.
00:18:38.134 --> 00:18:46.751
Yeah, there must be loads of airtime talked about coming from the north or whatever going to the wrong school.
00:18:46.751 --> 00:18:48.813
You can see it is constantly.
00:18:48.813 --> 00:19:00.608
Actually, if you think of it, it's like a gentle banging drum in the background about all these things and that's actually maybe people talking about it because they're trying to say I got here but I shouldn't be here, despite my school, despite these things.
00:19:00.608 --> 00:19:11.472
There's a great guy called Zuby on Twitter who says everyone who talks about failing to achieve and blaming other people in the Western world, especially in Europe, he says just rubbish.
00:19:11.472 --> 00:19:17.394
He said because everyone's got an opportunity here, compared to in every other country where it's really hard.
00:19:17.394 --> 00:19:23.151
And I think he even talked about it's people looking inwards Instead of just going, just get home with it.
00:19:23.925 --> 00:19:26.224
So what you're saying there is that you've got a post syndrome.
00:19:26.224 --> 00:19:30.114
You may or may not recognize it, and then you go to you cast around for the reasons.
00:19:30.114 --> 00:19:36.308
So, even though you've achieved something, you then cast around for reasons to justify how you got there, because you don't think you should be there.
00:19:36.308 --> 00:19:40.615
Yes, I'm too Scottish to run this company, that's it.
00:19:40.615 --> 00:19:42.952
You know, that is amazing.
00:19:42.952 --> 00:19:45.646
So people come to you and say when is it that?
00:19:45.646 --> 00:19:50.773
People come to you and say how do they recognize there's something amiss?
00:19:50.773 --> 00:19:51.929
How do they find you?
00:19:51.929 --> 00:20:09.593
Because unless you've heard about post syndrome because it's talked about endlessly in places like TechCrunch and TechStuff but it's not talked about, I imagine, printing weekly or car attire monthly how do people find out they've got it, how do they find what it is and how do they come to you?
00:20:11.125 --> 00:20:12.811
So it's an educational thing.
00:20:12.811 --> 00:20:19.555
A lot of my work, my posts on LinkedIn, my blogs are educational part.
00:20:19.555 --> 00:20:25.251
This is what it post a syndrome is, this is what it looks like, this is the cause of it, this is what you can do about it.
00:20:25.251 --> 00:20:30.811
And so a lot of the time people come to me and they say, yeah, I really resonate.
00:20:30.811 --> 00:20:35.832
I completely recognize myself and I can see and I thought you're writing about me.
00:20:37.005 --> 00:20:45.971
Wow, you're leaving a trail of breadcrumbs basically across LinkedIn, right, and people come across it however they do and they go oh, that's me.
00:20:45.971 --> 00:20:48.893
And then they start looking more at what you've written.
00:20:48.893 --> 00:20:52.394
So in your book you talk about the coaches guide to imposter syndrome.
00:20:52.394 --> 00:20:55.073
Do you wanna tell us about the book and what that does?
00:20:55.964 --> 00:21:00.913
Yeah, so the book is called Unmasking when I came out in early 2018.
00:21:00.913 --> 00:21:09.548
And it's as you say, it's the coaches guide to imposter syndrome, because what I wanted to do was educate more and more people about imposter syndrome.
00:21:09.567 --> 00:21:10.854
Yes, it's not fixing the person's way.
00:21:10.854 --> 00:21:11.673
Let's educate.
00:21:12.760 --> 00:21:13.383
Exactly so.
00:21:13.383 --> 00:21:19.259
People are aware of it and coaches, and that's coaches and that's also, you know, mentors and counselors, people like that.
00:21:19.844 --> 00:21:21.715
Also, people in HR are able to recognise this.
00:21:21.715 --> 00:21:25.769
Absolutely, you know people come in saying I feel really bad at work, especially at the moment.
00:21:25.769 --> 00:21:33.230
You know, as HR have responsibilities to look after people and if they recognise this, they could probably help the business as a whole.
00:21:33.740 --> 00:21:40.259
Exactly yes, so that the reason I wrote it was this educational thing and to help coaches deal with it.
00:21:40.259 --> 00:21:53.290
Because if somebody comes to you and saying you know it's really weird but I'm not feeling very confident, then it's easy for a coach to start working on building up their confidence.
00:21:53.290 --> 00:22:02.275
I feel it, but in positive syndrome isn't a confidence issue and these people are confident because they're competent in what they do.
00:22:02.275 --> 00:22:10.748
It's just they're not feeling it and that's the difference and it's getting to that heart of it.
00:22:10.748 --> 00:22:20.933
So my goal for my book was that more people could find out and more people could know what to do and what not to do when helping people.
00:22:20.933 --> 00:22:25.279
So a multiplier effect it's really interesting, isn't it?
00:22:25.641 --> 00:22:28.705
Because one thing you said there, it's confident.
00:22:28.705 --> 00:22:31.410
So like this is just like.
00:22:31.410 --> 00:22:33.733
It's like a therapy session for me for free.
00:22:33.733 --> 00:22:37.159
Because, like confidence is not my issue, right, that's it.
00:22:37.159 --> 00:22:41.772
But inside I have, you know this.
00:22:41.792 --> 00:22:47.279
When I first read about this, I mean years ago I was like, oh yes, so that's why I'm too open and I wear my harness.
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:50.472
So I go to the pub with other founders and say I got this thing.
00:22:50.472 --> 00:22:53.926
I don't even understand how I'm here, I don't really know, I don't think I've got the skills to do this.
00:22:53.926 --> 00:22:59.074
And then, because I'm so open, some people say that's me especially.
00:22:59.074 --> 00:23:05.138
English are even more reserved than the Scots, right, so I get a little glimmer into it and then I'd poke and whatever.
00:23:05.138 --> 00:23:09.279
But everyone I know like that is incredibly confident.
00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:14.112
You know, just raise 400 and four and let's do these amazing things and change one.
00:23:14.112 --> 00:23:20.196
But I always linked the impossible into effectively in lack of confidence.
00:23:20.196 --> 00:23:21.259
But it's not actually like that.
00:23:21.259 --> 00:23:25.534
You've got the confidence for good reason, because you've done things.
00:23:25.534 --> 00:23:35.259
Some people may have overconfident, but what you're saying is internally this isn't a what's the word I'm looking for, and it's not a lack of confidence internally.
00:23:35.259 --> 00:23:37.771
It's a different system at play.
00:23:38.676 --> 00:23:38.938
Yes, yes.
00:23:39.844 --> 00:23:42.279
Actually a different part of your brain is doing a different thing.
00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:45.279
It's not confidence in the outside lack of confidence in the inside.
00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:49.272
It's actually a broken bit of you inside saying I shouldn't be doing this.
00:23:50.683 --> 00:23:53.191
Yes, I wouldn't quite guess for far as to say people are broken.
00:23:53.191 --> 00:23:54.515
Okay, it's normal, sorry.
00:23:56.642 --> 00:23:59.234
It's a normal thing that you need to address and understand.
00:23:59.234 --> 00:23:59.877
Let's fix it that way.
00:24:00.840 --> 00:24:05.830
Well, so one of the things to understand about imposter syndrome is that it's not you.
00:24:06.653 --> 00:24:06.792
Yes.
00:24:07.299 --> 00:24:09.279
That's a really, really important thing.
00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:15.009
And if we go into the neuroscience of you, know how this manifests.
00:24:15.009 --> 00:24:17.513
There's a part of the brain called the amygdala.
00:24:17.513 --> 00:24:20.446
Okay, it's just kind of behind the eyes, in front of the ears.
00:24:20.446 --> 00:24:25.651
There's two and the amygdala is like a virus checker Right.
00:24:25.651 --> 00:24:34.772
So all of the information that you come in through all of your senses and your thoughts passes first through the amygdala, because it's looking out for danger.
00:24:35.173 --> 00:24:35.453
Okay.
00:24:36.299 --> 00:24:39.564
Just doing what it's supposed to do and look out, there's a tiger behind that.
00:24:39.564 --> 00:24:40.807
I can hear the growl.
00:24:40.807 --> 00:24:48.647
Yeah, it's a very primitive system that's designed to keep you safe, and so that's always filtering the information.
00:24:48.647 --> 00:24:54.259
And then there are certain things that will trigger the amygdala.
00:24:54.259 --> 00:25:01.220
So the belief of I'm not good enough can trigger the amygdala.
00:25:01.220 --> 00:25:05.290
So it might be, because it's often in certain situations.
00:25:05.290 --> 00:25:25.115
Maybe it's doing a presentation to a particular client, maybe it's publishing your work or doing a podcast, or it can be anything like that and if the amygdala gets triggered, then it puts you into the fight, flight and freeze response.
00:25:25.460 --> 00:25:30.808
That's when your blood pressure changes your blood distribution changes and you can't think so.
00:25:30.827 --> 00:25:32.250
Brain goes foggy yeah.
00:25:32.270 --> 00:25:33.633
Brain fog and all of that.
00:25:33.633 --> 00:25:35.194
Yeah, that's exactly it.
00:25:35.194 --> 00:25:41.692
So that's really how imposter syndrome kind of manifests.
00:25:41.692 --> 00:25:48.251
And then when we look at our own behavior and go, what's wrong with me?
00:25:48.251 --> 00:25:51.446
We start judging ourselves for it.
00:25:51.446 --> 00:25:58.230
And then that's really the problem and the conclusion that we make is I'm not good enough.
00:25:58.230 --> 00:25:59.486
I can't be good enough.
00:25:59.486 --> 00:26:06.111
If I've done thousands of these presentations, why am I still freaking out about it?
00:26:06.111 --> 00:26:10.279
Why am I not speaking up in this particular meeting?
00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:14.279
I know the answers and I'm not making the contribution that I want to.
00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:17.167
You start beating yourself up for it.
00:26:17.167 --> 00:26:18.010
I'm not good enough.
00:26:18.010 --> 00:26:24.494
I've had people who talk about giving themselves a pep talk, I think trying to like the confidence thing.
00:26:24.494 --> 00:26:27.952
I'm not feeling good, so I'll give myself a pep talk.
00:26:27.952 --> 00:26:29.279
Okay, well, what does that look like?
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:34.279
Well, I tell myself I'm being stupid and I should pull myself up with myself together.
00:26:34.279 --> 00:26:37.199
That's not a pep talk, that's a beating yourself up.
00:26:37.801 --> 00:26:40.142
Mike, is that not normal, Honestly?
00:26:40.142 --> 00:26:53.192
Is that so that, okay, oh, wow, okay, I thought I was completely normal going to do presentations stand outside for five minutes shouting at yourself internally obviously and then go and do a presentation having given yourself the sort of the big talking to?
00:26:53.192 --> 00:26:54.056
Is that not normal?
00:26:54.617 --> 00:27:09.711
It's amazing, very, very, very, very common, and it's all down to us trying to make sense of how come I'm achieving so well and I'm not feeling successful, I'm not feeling like a success.
00:27:10.837 --> 00:27:13.279
So yeah, that's quite interesting, isn't it?
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:15.888
It must be awful doing this in the public eye.
00:27:15.888 --> 00:27:18.268
Do you have anyone who's in the public eye?
00:27:18.268 --> 00:27:20.259
Because that must be worse.
00:27:20.259 --> 00:27:21.967
I see it in the public eye.
00:27:21.967 --> 00:27:26.471
I'm like you know 4,000 people linked in, I mean 400,000 people on.
00:27:26.471 --> 00:27:28.807
You know decent YouTube channels, I mean because it must be even worse.
00:27:28.807 --> 00:27:34.603
The bigger gets, which is why, of course, personalities on TV used to break down, right, because they must be.
00:27:34.623 --> 00:27:37.428
I don't know if you saw the thing with George Michael, I mean the other night.
00:27:37.428 --> 00:27:38.309
Did you see that?
00:27:38.309 --> 00:27:39.031
I didn't?
00:27:39.031 --> 00:27:45.166
No, oh, there's absolutely fabulous documentary about George Michael and basically you should definitely watch this, right.
00:27:45.520 --> 00:27:50.203
So he hid behind his leather jacket and his glasses all those years, partly because he was hiding the fact he was gay.
00:27:50.203 --> 00:27:57.279
But then he didn't believe he was good enough, and the only time he did is when he went on stage Like he literally was trying to get caught with the police.
00:27:57.279 --> 00:27:59.047
He was literally trying to destroy himself.
00:27:59.047 --> 00:28:01.667
He didn't believe he deserved all the adulation and respect.
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:15.047
And, of course, when it's like on steroids, when you're one of the most famous people in the world and it seemed to me watching it the other night I was thinking of you in this podcast thinking that's what he was suffering from, like why should he be here?
00:28:15.047 --> 00:28:27.390
Because, also, andrew Ridgely was the talented one, okay, so when they did it, wow, and he wrote the songs, andrew did the stuff and he was just, he was like he was shy and inward and just tried to be a mini me right With Andrew.
00:28:27.390 --> 00:28:43.844
And then, of course, he did his own stuff and he took off and then his support, his rock, was gone because he went from one when he had Andrew to and honestly, I was watching the whole thing going this is just a great day in Posse syndrome all day long and, like, obviously it led to his death.
00:28:44.807 --> 00:28:50.394
Yes, and in the extreme situations it can lead to that.
00:28:50.394 --> 00:28:54.007
It can lead to burnout, it can lead to people ending their careers.
00:28:54.007 --> 00:28:57.387
You know just, you're walking away from the businesses.
00:28:57.387 --> 00:29:01.394
On that, there are certain level and, yeah, you do see it in celebrities.
00:29:01.394 --> 00:29:10.893
It's quite easy to see, In fact, Meryl Streep, the actress who has won more awards than anyone else in history.
00:29:10.893 --> 00:29:21.442
Yeah has talked about her own imposter syndrome and saying, when she's been offered a new part, saying, well, why would anyone want to come and see?
00:29:22.317 --> 00:29:23.320
Bloody hell.
00:29:25.740 --> 00:29:29.919
No, Albert Einstein mentioned it, Neil Armstrong, who walked on the moon.
00:29:29.919 --> 00:29:35.248
Why do I deserve to be in this group of August company?
00:29:35.248 --> 00:29:52.741
It's so common that that's what surprises me more than anything is how something can be so common and at the same time, so secret, Because it's a weakness, because I guess there's a lot of it.
00:29:52.803 --> 00:29:53.423
It's a weakness.
00:29:53.423 --> 00:29:55.298
People are like it's getting better.
00:29:55.298 --> 00:29:59.987
I mean, people didn't like topic weaknesses but it's getting a lot better in the last decade.
00:30:01.035 --> 00:30:01.616
Definitely.
00:30:01.616 --> 00:30:10.183
It's definitely improving and people assume it's a weakness, and I think that's it, that they make it mean something about them.
00:30:10.183 --> 00:30:11.346
Maybe I'm not good enough.
00:30:11.346 --> 00:30:13.823
I must be flawed, it must be a character deep.
00:30:14.174 --> 00:30:17.365
It goes back around to if I think this is a weakness, it's because I'm not good enough.
00:30:17.836 --> 00:30:19.663
Yes, yes, so it reinforces it.
00:30:19.663 --> 00:30:23.604
But imposter syndrome is like having a nail in your shoe.
00:30:23.604 --> 00:30:28.420
You walk along, it's painful, you can try and ignore it.
00:30:28.420 --> 00:30:34.249
It's not going to go away and it'll keep coming back the more you try to pressure on it.
00:30:34.249 --> 00:30:36.174
You know go faster, go further.
00:30:36.234 --> 00:30:38.221
You're going to have to stop and reassess the shoe.
00:30:38.914 --> 00:30:40.378
Exactly, exactly.
00:30:40.378 --> 00:30:44.367
So the solution whether you see it as the shoe is really obvious.
00:30:44.367 --> 00:30:48.122
You take the nail out With imposter syndrome.
00:30:48.122 --> 00:30:51.087
You've got this pain, this stress, this discomfort.
00:30:51.087 --> 00:30:55.987
You can't see anything obvious for it, you can't explain it very well.
00:30:55.987 --> 00:30:58.098
So you think it must be you.
00:30:58.098 --> 00:31:03.381
You think it must be, you think the nail is you, and so you don't even look for a solution.
00:31:03.381 --> 00:31:04.503
You're just trying to hide.
00:31:04.503 --> 00:31:05.567
You're just trying to hide it.
00:31:06.474 --> 00:31:07.337
Yes, that makes sense.
00:31:07.337 --> 00:31:14.123
The nail doesn't exist because it's just you, and until you, and then when you identify the nail does exist, then you can.
00:31:14.123 --> 00:31:17.262
You can address it Like a lot of mental issues.
00:31:17.262 --> 00:31:22.371
Really, you know it's just you until you identify that it's not actually just you and there's something you can do about it.
00:31:22.371 --> 00:31:24.157
Yes, so how'd you go about?
00:31:24.157 --> 00:31:25.883
What can you do about it?
00:31:28.365 --> 00:31:29.414
Yes, that's the question.
00:31:29.977 --> 00:31:31.039
The obvious next question.
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:32.484
I've got a nail help.
00:31:33.476 --> 00:31:48.382
Well, the very first part is, like you said, about the education, knowing about it and knowing that it's not you, it's a nail, it's something external to you, it's a belief that you never un and beliefs can be unknown.
00:31:48.382 --> 00:31:53.133
So then you can manage imposter syndrome.
00:31:53.133 --> 00:31:55.077
So this is, without taking the nail out.
00:31:55.077 --> 00:32:02.457
You can work to work with your nervous system and work with ways of calming your nervous system.
00:32:02.457 --> 00:32:08.557
That's going to help you have less extreme reactions to the stress of it, so that's going to be useful.
00:32:09.179 --> 00:32:10.863
And the other part is to get support.
00:32:10.863 --> 00:32:14.038
So that'd be something to talk things through with.
00:32:14.038 --> 00:32:27.999
And support can even be logistical support in terms of organizing your life and getting someone in to do the chores, just so that you've got more time and less stress and you're more able to manage.
00:32:27.999 --> 00:32:35.258
So getting calm and getting more support is how you can manage imposter syndrome.
00:32:35.258 --> 00:32:41.075
And then the ultimate way to get rid of it is to change that belief.
00:32:41.075 --> 00:32:59.923
There are systematic ways that you can change the belief and make it so it doesn't trigger that amygdala in your brain that you're looking out for the danger, so that the things that you previously labeled as danger aren't danger.
00:32:59.923 --> 00:33:07.250
So you can see, it's not about standing in front of the mirror like Superman and saying good enough, I'm all right.
00:33:07.289 --> 00:33:08.515
Thank you, I'm sorted now, yeah.
00:33:09.296 --> 00:33:12.001
Yeah, it doesn't work because you're amygdala still got it.
00:33:12.001 --> 00:33:22.288
You have to actually do work that actually works through the way that the brain works and the way the brain is designed to work.
00:33:22.288 --> 00:33:31.801
And so what happens when you get rid of it is then the confidence internal, how you're feeling is effortless.
00:33:31.801 --> 00:33:34.968
It's like you forget to doubt yourself.
00:33:36.097 --> 00:33:39.852
Yes, it's not like you need more confidence to fix the thing at the bottom.
00:33:39.852 --> 00:33:41.979
What you just need is, like, the balance in the middle.
00:33:41.979 --> 00:33:46.391
So I think a lot of people hide this fact.
00:33:46.391 --> 00:33:50.730
With more confidence, I don't feel confident, so therefore I'll be more confident on the outside.
00:33:50.730 --> 00:33:55.209
So actually, what you don't need is that you can just bring that back because you've addressed the issue.
00:33:55.209 --> 00:33:56.976
So I am just me.
00:33:56.976 --> 00:33:58.521
I can go and do this podcast.
00:33:58.521 --> 00:34:05.103
I'm quite happy because I no longer stress and worry about the responsibility on the guests.
00:34:05.103 --> 00:34:12.447
It becomes less of a guilt and more of a fact, like, if you come on, you will get this, I will get that and we will have a great time.
00:34:12.447 --> 00:34:15.697
Yeah, and you just almost like you neutered the thing.
00:34:16.838 --> 00:34:17.820
Yes, exactly.
00:34:17.820 --> 00:34:30.398
And when you turn down that noise and destruction of the double tracking of imposter syndrome, when you turn all that down, what emerges is all your natural talents and stress.
00:34:30.398 --> 00:34:33.925
You start doing a podcast because it's a lot of fun.
00:34:34.226 --> 00:34:45.478
Yeah, because you know it's a positive and business development way of but you can see across all spectrums of business sectors and all roles.
00:34:45.478 --> 00:35:01.527
I could see how, if you take away the Whether you're fixing it with overconfidence, or fixing it with overanalyzing, or over present preparation or over All these things are just grinding you down slowly, right In the back of your mind.
00:35:01.527 --> 00:35:05.521
That's what they're doing Energy, brain power, brain time.
00:35:05.521 --> 00:35:13.204
What you're saying is you start to address that nail that takes away the sort of gulf between the two ends.
00:35:13.204 --> 00:35:30.179
One end is your over-prep or over-confidence that you're producing, and then there's your actual, your anxiety around it and you sort of bring them together so you're just in a nice sort of state of flow, really as you, without the wave of the roller coaster that goes with it.
00:35:30.179 --> 00:35:32.648
Is that, without me, a good assumption?
00:35:33.070 --> 00:35:36.699
That's a great way of putting it and certainly that roller coaster.
00:35:36.699 --> 00:35:45.460
What happens with that roller coaster is that it becomes shallower roller coaster.
00:35:45.460 --> 00:35:49.827
You don't get so obsessed with the highs.
00:35:49.827 --> 00:35:59.235
You enjoy them without women making you a little bit crazy, and then you don't get so dragged down by the lows.
00:35:59.235 --> 00:36:12.045
So it's building your resilience and that's what human beings are naturally resilient, and that's our adaptability as one of our greatest features.
00:36:12.045 --> 00:36:21.215
And the more we can clear that distraction from our mind and positive syndrome, the more resilient and capable we're going to be.
00:36:21.215 --> 00:36:33.235
And basically, the more we're going to enjoy things, we're going to enjoy the success, enjoy the view at the top of the mountain and go, wow, isn't this amazing?
00:36:33.255 --> 00:36:35.284
Because a lot of people don't enjoy where they are.
00:36:35.284 --> 00:36:39.840
They can have raised money or they've built their business or they've done really well.
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:46.900
They're a partner, legal firm and a lot of people who have to the average person, including me.
00:36:46.900 --> 00:36:51.224
I look at them and think that's awesome, well done, but they're not enjoying themselves.
00:36:51.224 --> 00:36:56.764
In fact, they're desperate to get out, which is why you see all these high achievers bailing out to go what to kept man doing stuff?
00:36:56.764 --> 00:36:58.679
Because actually they're running away from it.
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:01.610
That's the saddest thing.
00:37:02.112 --> 00:37:08.233
So I've got to ask you, I want to ask you how people can actually get in touch with you Before I do.
00:37:08.233 --> 00:37:17.434
I've got to ask because has the last 18 months changed anything about people's behaviour?
00:37:17.434 --> 00:37:18.034
Who have got this?
00:37:18.034 --> 00:37:26.820
Because now you don't have to be face to face, you've only got to do Zoom for however many hours a day, or not at all if you're really lucky.
00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:36.998
Has that impacted people's behaviour, people's response to having this, or people who you know, who you've been treating and talking to, who have got it?
00:37:36.998 --> 00:37:40.887
Have they found it easier or harder?
00:37:42.094 --> 00:37:43.719
So it's a bit of both.
00:37:43.719 --> 00:38:00.134
So for people for whom presentations of being in the spotlight is the most difficult thing, then many of them find that the distance, by not being there in person, makes it a little bit easier.
00:38:00.369 --> 00:38:01.740
Okay that's interesting.
00:38:02.242 --> 00:38:06.711
So you can say this is part of that, hiding part of it.
00:38:06.711 --> 00:38:08.034
Hiding can be not speaking up.
00:38:08.034 --> 00:38:12.465
Hiding can be literally being more distant.
00:38:12.465 --> 00:38:17.440
What happens with the Zoom is particularly when you're in a meeting.
00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:23.427
You're always there, right, there's always that little square with you and you can't even hide it from yourself.
00:38:23.447 --> 00:38:42.514
Yeah, you can't hide it from yourself unless you don't look at your own screen and that can make some people feel even more put on the spot, even more like somebody is going to catch them out, because if you're in a meeting, somebody speaks who's looking at that person?
00:38:42.514 --> 00:38:45.108
Who's speaking in a Zoom meeting?
00:38:45.108 --> 00:38:47.474
Everybody's still there on the screen.
00:38:47.474 --> 00:38:50.875
So everybody's seeing everybody's reaction the whole time.
00:38:50.875 --> 00:38:57.458
So people feel more under the microscope and more vulnerable to being caught out.
00:38:57.458 --> 00:39:02.271
So that's what I've seen in my clients, so it has changed things.
00:39:02.271 --> 00:39:12.534
Some people are feeling good about the space that they're getting because they're not having to commute, they've got a good space at home to work.
00:39:12.534 --> 00:39:20.333
And other people are feeling very stressful In terms of the nervous system in the brain.
00:39:20.333 --> 00:39:27.572
What happens is that we regulate our nervous system by the other people around us.
00:39:27.572 --> 00:39:36.684
So if you were a group of cavemen in a cave and one of them jumped and went, ah, then everybody would look sad.
00:39:36.965 --> 00:39:37.365
Everyone jumps.
00:39:37.365 --> 00:39:38.791
He comes to see the two tiger guys.
00:39:39.152 --> 00:39:40.264
Exactly so.
00:39:40.264 --> 00:39:45.128
We're kind of like an external extension of our own nervous system right, We've got bigger alert.
00:39:45.128 --> 00:40:04.570
And the opposite happens when you're with someone who's calm and relaxed and playful or laughing or something like that, and it tends to calm and relax you because they're behaviors that are you know there's not a tiger in the roof they're safety behaviors.
00:40:04.570 --> 00:40:11.737
So we calm each other down or we can stir each other up by our own nervous system.
00:40:11.737 --> 00:40:34.101
We get far less cues from other people when we're on Zoom, so if you're in a meeting, your brain would be picking up everybody's body language Every little twitch or eyebrow rakes, even if you're not delivering or if there's a little breast inside, because you don't get that with the Zoom meeting.
00:40:34.302 --> 00:40:38.489
You know people are like you speak, but you can see them, so you can't see that.
00:40:38.489 --> 00:40:39.753
They're micro expressions.
00:40:40.304 --> 00:40:46.072
You know you can't see the fingers on the desk, the way they tap the phone or the way the pen starts twitching through the hand.
00:40:46.072 --> 00:40:47.371
It's all that stuff that's missing, isn't?
00:40:47.391 --> 00:40:47.431
it.
00:40:47.431 --> 00:40:58.239
It's that kind of stuff and because there's so much noise distraction you can't hear, you know the change in breathing patterns.
00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:01.373
There are all these clues that you get from people around you.
00:41:01.373 --> 00:41:11.528
So being isolated in terms of being away from people like that is more stressful for the nervous system.
00:41:12.744 --> 00:41:18.550
So if people feel they have this and they want to like have a conversation, buy your book, try and understand it.
00:41:18.550 --> 00:41:21.391
Where's the best place to reach out to you?
00:41:22.625 --> 00:41:23.929
So the book is on Amazon.
00:41:23.929 --> 00:41:34.052
Unmasking my website is completesuccesscouk and I'm also on LinkedIn.
00:41:34.713 --> 00:41:35.195
And you're very.
00:41:35.195 --> 00:41:36.887
I've seen a lot of your LinkedIn stuff.
00:41:36.887 --> 00:41:39.173
It's really good, yeah, thank you.
00:41:39.173 --> 00:41:40.797
It gets a lot of interactions.
00:41:40.797 --> 00:41:42.552
Everybody goes oh, that's me.
00:41:43.626 --> 00:41:46.255
Well, it's interesting because some do and some don't.
00:41:46.255 --> 00:41:55.911
A lot of people would never put that on a public forum and in fact, what I do with my clients is on LinkedIn.
00:41:55.911 --> 00:42:02.512
I never comment on their posts like their posts make me kind of Wow, of course.
00:42:02.512 --> 00:42:10.918
Because you know, my tagline says it includes imposter syndrome specialists.
00:42:10.918 --> 00:42:14.835
They don't want to be having an insiposter syndrome.
00:42:14.835 --> 00:42:16.710
Congratulations on your new job.
00:42:16.710 --> 00:42:17.251
How great.
00:42:17.251 --> 00:42:19.536
Yeah, though I send them a private message.
00:42:19.577 --> 00:42:20.545
I don't do anything public.
00:42:20.545 --> 00:42:21.690
Oh, that's interesting.
00:42:21.690 --> 00:42:22.728
People still not confident.
00:42:22.728 --> 00:42:33.813
You've helped me fix my anxiety issues around my performance, but still, please don't comment on that on LinkedIn, because I would be admitting what I've perceived to be a weakness, which isn't a weakness which we discussed earlier.
00:42:34.867 --> 00:42:37.114
But they feel comfortable in on the sales.
00:42:37.114 --> 00:42:41.815
But not everybody knows that it's not a weakness.
00:42:41.815 --> 00:42:43.550
Everyone still treats it as a weakness.
00:42:43.550 --> 00:42:48.411
So there's this stigma that's going to be around for, I'd imagine, quite some time.
00:42:48.766 --> 00:42:49.628
Oh, I'd be all yeah.
00:42:50.844 --> 00:42:58.572
And it's ridiculous because you know this is 70% are aware of it, and that's men and women equally.
00:42:59.246 --> 00:43:01.304
But the weakness thing isn't just imposter syndrome.
00:43:01.304 --> 00:43:04.454
The weakness thing is this weird business thing that you've got to be vulnerable.
00:43:04.454 --> 00:43:12.452
You've got to be the brad bit of bosses, you've got to be the champion ever.
00:43:12.452 --> 00:43:19.652
You've got to be this invincible, tough skinned, and part of that crap comes from things like Dragon's Den.
00:43:19.652 --> 00:43:23.992
You know this nonsense, shouting match of like.
00:43:23.992 --> 00:43:26.586
Oh well, if you think that you're rubbish, off you go.
00:43:26.586 --> 00:43:29.351
Mr Trunky, you know 100 million Trunky sales later.
00:43:29.351 --> 00:43:39.452
So on that note, if you think you have any of the characteristics of imposter syndrome and you would like to talk to me about it, completesuccesscom.
00:43:39.452 --> 00:43:41.329
Tara, thank you for being on the show.
00:43:42.186 --> 00:43:43.829
It's been absolutely fascinating.
00:43:43.829 --> 00:43:44.632
Thank you very much.
00:43:45.132 --> 00:44:13.844
Trish Cut Loved it, All your love.
00:44:13.844 --> 00:44:14.605
Supermaniacs are always, always right.
00:44:14.605 --> 00:44:15.648
You.
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