Speaker A
00:00:00
In terms of the impact on your workforce, like the trust that you're building, people's ability to get help when they need it, it's going to have a tremendous impact.
Speaker A
00:00:09
I know that a lot of people feel like, gosh, this isn't my job as a supervisor, but what the research shows.
Speaker A
00:00:15
There was this fascinating study that Harvard Business School did where they asked people, do you feel it is the manager's job to be concerned with their employees mental health?
Speaker A
00:00:24
And the majority of managers said, no, that's not my job.
Speaker A
00:00:27
Obviously my career, I have another job.
Speaker A
00:00:29
And the majority of the employees said, absolutely, that is central to their role.
Speaker A
00:00:33
So whether you think it is your job or not, your employees think it's your job and they're expecting it of you.
Speaker A
00:00:39
So it's worthwhile to spend a little time and effort to get comfortable with it because it's going to make a difference and certainly they're expecting it of you.
Speaker B
00:00:48
Hey, friends.
Speaker C
00:00:49
Welcome to the Changing Work podcast.
Speaker C
00:00:52
We are so glad you're here.
Speaker B
00:00:54
My name is Nick.
Speaker C
00:00:55
And I'm Scott.
Speaker B
00:00:56
And this is the podcast where we talk about changing work from the inside out.
Speaker C
00:01:00
So if you're, if you're into making the workplace and the world a better experience via conscious business practices, stick around.
Speaker C
00:01:07
This is for you.
Speaker C
00:01:09
Into making the workplace and the world a better experience via conscious business practices, stick around.
Speaker C
00:01:16
This is for you.
Speaker B
00:01:18
Katherine, welcome.
Speaker A
00:01:20
Thank you.
Speaker A
00:01:21
Good morning.
Speaker B
00:01:22
Good morning.
Speaker B
00:01:23
That hold music was really nice.
Speaker B
00:01:24
I like that.
Speaker B
00:01:27
I'm going to read a quick bio here for you, but as I usually do, I feel like every time people read bios out loud, loud, there's always a couple little things here missing in the bios.
Speaker B
00:01:35
So I'm going to encourage you to think about one or two things you'd like to share beyond the bio that people might not know about you.
Speaker B
00:01:41
So.
Speaker B
00:01:41
Kathryn Manning is the president of Blackbird, which provides training and consultation on empathy at work.
Speaker B
00:01:46
She's the author of the Empathetic Workplace Five Steps to a Compassionate, Calm and Confident Response to Trauma on the Job and teaches at American University and in the Master's in Trauma Informed Leadership program at Dominican University.
Speaker B
00:02:00
Her work has been featured in the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Newsweek, CNBC, Business Insider, Thrive Global, and CEOWorld.
Speaker B
00:02:08
She's worked on issues of trauma and victimization for more than 25 years, including 15 years at the Justice Department, where she was a senior attorney advisor, consulting on victim issues in cases like the Boston Marathon bombing and the Pulse nightclub shooting.
Speaker B
00:02:22
Katherine, thank you so much for being here and thanks for the work you're doing in the world.
Speaker A
00:02:25
Thank you.
Speaker A
00:02:26
It's such a pleasure to see you.
Speaker A
00:02:27
Thank you for getting up so early to have this conversation.
Speaker A
00:02:30
I'm on the east coast, so for me, it's really not that bad.
Speaker B
00:02:33
Yeah, I'm in the mountain time in Colorado, so it's not that.
Speaker A
00:02:36
That.
Speaker B
00:02:36
That gave me a good reason to get up and see the sunrise this morning.
Speaker B
00:02:40
So I read your bio.
Speaker B
00:02:41
What.
Speaker B
00:02:42
What else do people need to know about you that isn't kind of encapsulated in your bio?
Speaker A
00:02:46
You know, I think often what people will say to me is, so you're a lawyer, but your job is empathy.
Speaker A
00:02:53
And, like, how did that happen?
Speaker A
00:02:55
Because for most people, that's kind of surprising.
Speaker A
00:02:58
So let me just flesh that out a little bit, I guess.
Speaker A
00:03:01
You know, I am a lawyer, but I'm a lawyer who has always worked with crime victims.
Speaker A
00:03:05
I started off really back in college doing hotline work, domestic violence, rape crisis kind of work.
Speaker A
00:03:11
It was that.
Speaker A
00:03:12
That really pushed me to go to law school because I felt like the ways people were being treated in the legal system, it wasn't really set up to protect the most vulnerable.
Speaker A
00:03:21
And that's what made me really want to go to law school.
Speaker A
00:03:24
And after law school, I ended up at DOJ at the Justice Department here in D.C.
Speaker A
00:03:29
and my role was victims rights, which mean that I would kind of help the department figure out how to support victims in cases, anything from fraud to terrorism to human trafficking.
Speaker A
00:03:42
A couple of things started to become clear to me over the years.
Speaker A
00:03:45
I was there for about 15 years.
Speaker A
00:03:46
It was a long time.
Speaker A
00:03:48
One thing I started to realize was that people didn't need different things based on what they were a victim of.
Speaker A
00:03:53
Like, it wasn't like, the way you would support a victim of terrorism was that different from the way you would support a victim of human trafficking.
Speaker A
00:04:00
Like, everybody needed a voice in the proceedings and what was happening to them.
Speaker A
00:04:05
Everybody needed to feel heard.
Speaker A
00:04:07
Everybody needed transparency and information.
Speaker A
00:04:10
Everybody needed some help, like sometimes tangible monetary help or other kinds of support to get on their feet again.
Speaker A
00:04:18
And then the other thing that I started to realize was that it wasn't just the victims in our cases who needed those things.
Speaker A
00:04:24
It was all of us.
Speaker A
00:04:25
It was my colleagues, it was my employees, my supervisors.
Speaker A
00:04:29
It was me.
Speaker A
00:04:31
And I realized these skills I had learned in how to support people through these really horrific life circumstances were also valuable in supporting a colleague whose father was dying or somebody who's going through a divorce.
Speaker A
00:04:46
And I just started to understand that the Ways we support people in particular in those really difficult life moments which we're all going to have.
Speaker A
00:04:56
The ways we show up for people then have a lasting impact on their well being, their healing.
Speaker A
00:05:03
They're able to get ability to get through it.
Speaker A
00:05:05
On our trust, like the ways that we interact with each other.
Speaker A
00:05:09
I certainly feel closest to people who have stood by me in my hard moments and then ultimately on our ability to do our jobs.
Speaker A
00:05:17
Because if we aren't, if we don't have trust of our colleagues, if we don't feel like we're getting support when we need it, we're not really engaged and thriving in the ways of work that we need to be.
Speaker A
00:05:27
So that's.
Speaker A
00:05:28
It was kind of that realization and also in part sparked by Me too in 2018, just seeing how these issues were showing up all over the place.
Speaker A
00:05:37
That's when I started working on my book.
Speaker A
00:05:39
And since then, since 2019, I've been kind of on my own doing training and consulting on these topics.
Speaker B
00:05:47
Well, that's great.
Speaker B
00:05:48
There's a lot there to unpack.
Speaker B
00:05:49
But you know, so much of what you're sharing seems to me to be kind of like almost like table stakes.
Speaker B
00:05:53
We're talking about kind of like empathy, treating people like humans, passionate understanding that people are going through large.
Speaker B
00:05:59
Well, they're going through a lot.
Speaker B
00:06:00
You know, there's a lot to hold there.
Speaker B
00:06:03
You mentioned your book, the Empathetic Workplace.
Speaker B
00:06:05
Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker B
00:06:06
I'm kind of curious, like where does play a role within the workplace?
Speaker A
00:06:11
Yeah, it's such a great question because I agree it is like table stakes.
Speaker A
00:06:15
It seems like of course you're going to be kind to people when they're going through hard times.
Speaker A
00:06:19
And yet one of the things I saw in my work at DOJ and since then is as much as we want to be really compassionate and present and kind, when people are going through a hard time, it's not easy to do.
Speaker A
00:06:32
Like, particularly at work.
Speaker A
00:06:34
I think we sort of panic a little bit.
Speaker A
00:06:36
Like we, we shut down, we freeze up.
Speaker A
00:06:39
And a lot of that is just kind of the way that we're wired.
Speaker A
00:06:42
You know, I think we are hardwired for empathy and sometimes that means that we get a little like contagion effect of the stress of the person that we're interacting with.
Speaker A
00:06:50
Sometimes it's just hard to hear about stuff.
Speaker A
00:06:52
And you know, another thing is I think at work, often our, our knee jerk reaction is my job is to fix this.
Speaker A
00:07:02
Which in a lot of situations at work is great.
Speaker A
00:07:05
Like that's really.
Speaker A
00:07:06
But when you're interacting with somebody who's really struggling, that's maybe not super effective.
Speaker A
00:07:12
Like just a quick story, there was a guy I was talking to who was the head of a team.
Speaker A
00:07:16
He was the CTO of a big company and one of his team members came to him and said, I need you to understand that I'm in the midst of a severe depression right now and in fact I'm suicidal.
Speaker A
00:07:27
And what this CTO said to me was, my reaction was, well, this is my guy.
Speaker A
00:07:32
Like I'm responsible for him, I'm supposed to be taking care of him.
Speaker A
00:07:36
And so he thought, I have to fix this, I have to make it better for him.
Speaker A
00:07:39
And so his response was, well, have you tried exercise?
Speaker A
00:07:43
Which for somebody who's suicidal can come across as really blaming or minimizing, which was the opposite of what this man was trying to do.
Speaker A
00:07:50
He just, he didn't really know what to say.
Speaker A
00:07:53
So that's really what the book is.
Speaker A
00:07:54
The book is what do you say in that moment?
Speaker A
00:07:57
And it's five steps.
Speaker A
00:07:59
This is something that I kind of developed after, was really after me too.
Speaker A
00:08:03
And seeing I felt like so often people were kind of bumbling that response when somebody would share something.
Speaker A
00:08:09
So to me, the five steps to an empathetic response to somebody sharing their story of trauma or distress at work are one, listen, which is active listening to acknowledge, which is just letting them know you heard them.
Speaker A
00:08:21
Thanks for sharing that.
Speaker A
00:08:23
I had no idea.
Speaker A
00:08:23
I'm sorry for everything you're going through.
Speaker A
00:08:25
Third step is share and this is about transparency, sharing information about, you know, we have a complaint process or here's what we know about that incident of workplace violence.
Speaker A
00:08:36
The share is really about transparency.
Speaker A
00:08:38
The fourth step is empower, which is about giving them access to resources they might need to get on their feet again, like EAP or I don't know, other kinds of mental health, flexible work, security options.
Speaker A
00:08:50
And then the fifth step is return, which is both later checking in on the person and also importantly, it's about returning to yourself, like recognizing that supporting others takes a toll on us and we need to be managing our own self care and well being to be able to continue to do the work that we need to do too.
Speaker B
00:09:08
Yeah, it's such a really beautiful framework, you know, and I think to your point, you know, people tend, if they don't have a framework, if they don't have a process to work through, like you mentioned, people might tend to freeze up or that whatever just kind of falls out of their mouth, which might be good intended, but might not actually be helping in the ways that the individual might need.
Speaker B
00:09:24
I mean, so much of this, I think, also comes around to, like, mental health awareness and just understanding the impact of trauma and other events on people's psyche or their mental health.
Speaker B
00:09:33
You know, I'm kind of curious, and you mentioned the Me Too movement.
Speaker B
00:09:36
Imagine, like, George Floyd, the pandemic, and all these things that have happened over the last few years, probably continuously compounding the impact of trauma and struggle within the workplace.
Speaker B
00:09:47
Are you seeing kind of a shift within the workplace and the people that you're talking to, where they're needing more and more of these resources or support?
Speaker A
00:09:54
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A
00:09:55
I mean, I think.
Speaker A
00:09:56
I think it's a couple things.
Speaker A
00:09:58
I do think that we have, you know, we've been impacted by everything that's been going on.
Speaker A
00:10:04
I sometimes say it feels like trauma is the air we're breathing in 2020.
Speaker A
00:10:07
Ever since 2020 started up to today, it's like hit after hit after hit.
Speaker A
00:10:13
And I think it is taking a toll on us.
Speaker A
00:10:15
And certainly the statistics bear that out, like rates of anxiety and depression and stress and anger, and all of those things are on the rise.
Speaker A
00:10:22
I'm sure you're familiar with that.
Speaker A
00:10:24
You're seeing it yourself.
Speaker A
00:10:26
So I think that's some of it.
Speaker A
00:10:27
I also think that people are just talking about it more.
Speaker A
00:10:31
I feel like one of the impacts of the pandemic, like, we were.
Speaker A
00:10:36
It both.
Speaker A
00:10:37
It was broad.
Speaker A
00:10:38
You know, I mean, the.
Speaker A
00:10:39
The trauma and distress was kind of affecting everybody because of COVID and George Floyd and environmental disasters and everything.
Speaker A
00:10:46
So it was more widespread.
Speaker A
00:10:48
But also, like, we were.
Speaker A
00:10:49
We were in each other's homes.
Speaker A
00:10:50
You know, you're.
Speaker A
00:10:51
You're getting this glimpse and you hear the baby crying in the next room.
Speaker A
00:10:55
You.
Speaker A
00:10:55
You know, you're just really getting a sense of intimacy that I think we didn't really have before.
Speaker A
00:11:00
And I think also this is being driven a lot by the millennials.
Speaker A
00:11:06
I just feel like there is, again, statistics kind of bear this out.
Speaker A
00:11:10
There is a sense of we're not willing to just kind of keep our mouth shut and show up for work.
Speaker A
00:11:16
We expect that our workplace is going to share our values, that they're going to try to support us as whole humans and not just focus on, like, well, did you get that report out by Thursday or not?
Speaker A
00:11:28
So I think the workplaces are changing.
Speaker A
00:11:29
And that's certainly what I'm seeing in my work is from every type of organization, some that.
Speaker A
00:11:36
That people think, well, that's there's, you know, that's a type of organization that you would think there's no way that they care about this, including law enforcement, including the military, including, you know, engineering, banking, you know, industries that you wouldn't necessarily think are prioritizing this, are prioritizing it now because they realize they have to if they want to continue to, to thrive, to expand, to grow, even just to continue.
Speaker A
00:12:02
I think it's essential right now.
Speaker B
00:12:04
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B
00:12:05
And, you know, I think so we're talking about trauma, you know, and I think there's like.
Speaker B
00:12:10
Like what?
Speaker B
00:12:10
I like capital T trauma and lowercase T trauma.
Speaker B
00:12:13
But, you know, this is a word that has been coming up more and more and more, I think you mentioned, since 2020.
Speaker B
00:12:17
I think, to your point, millennials, Gen Zs, there's just a greater awareness of mental health and the impact of everything that's going on on the world, on people's ability to perform well within the workplace.
Speaker B
00:12:28
But maybe we can get a little bit more granular here.
Speaker B
00:12:30
Like, you know, what, what is trauma?
Speaker B
00:12:32
And like, how does this actually show up in the workplace?
Speaker B
00:12:34
Like, what things would we be looking out for?
Speaker A
00:12:37
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A
00:12:38
So trauma is one of those words that just.
Speaker A
00:12:41
It feels like everybody has their own understanding of it.
Speaker A
00:12:43
And I think a lot of people use it without really, like, people are using it differently and getting kind of frustrated about that.
Speaker A
00:12:50
So the definition of trauma I use in my work is that it's a psychological injury that impairs your performance.
Speaker A
00:12:57
This is kind of a slimmed down version of the definition of victim used by the Substance Abuse Mental Health Services Administration or sam.
Speaker A
00:13:05
What I like about the SAMHSA definition is that in contrast to a lot of other definitions, it doesn't give you like a listing of life events and say if you've experienced one of these, you experience trauma.
Speaker A
00:13:15
I'm not crazy about that kind of definition because we all respond differently to similar or even the exact same event.
Speaker A
00:13:22
Like if you had three people in a car accident together, maybe one of them is a little shaken up, but is able to kind of engage with others at the scene.
Speaker A
00:13:30
Check, check in, you know, make sure everybody's okay and make their way to work and be kind of okay.
Speaker A
00:13:35
Maybe another one falls apart at the scene, can't go into work that day, can't get in a car for a week, Maybe the third one seems fine, goes into work, and then the next day falls apart.
Speaker A
00:13:44
Like, none of those is the right reaction.
Speaker A
00:13:47
They're all just within the range of normal human responses to A traumatizing event.
Speaker A
00:13:51
So I don't want us to get too caught up in what happened to you.
Speaker A
00:13:55
And then I will determine whether that's trauma or not.
Speaker A
00:13:58
It's, to me, much more effective just to be kind of keyed in on the person in front of you and see, like, does this person need some help in order to be able to do the things that they need and want to do?
Speaker A
00:14:08
And if so, let's get them some help now.
Speaker A
00:14:12
You know, how can you recognize that?
Speaker A
00:14:14
It's probably things that people are already noticing.
Speaker A
00:14:17
Like, it's.
Speaker A
00:14:19
It's often a change in behavior.
Speaker A
00:14:21
So they're.
Speaker A
00:14:23
They're somebody who is normally really, really rigorous about showing up at work on time, and then suddenly they're not.
Speaker A
00:14:29
Their performance has changed really quickly.
Speaker A
00:14:31
There was one guy I was talking to who was a CEO of a company, and he talked about their head of sales, who had always been just a pillar of the company, really, really essential to their success.
Speaker A
00:14:43
And then he said one day his performance just fell off a cliff, and he was showing a blade.
Speaker A
00:14:48
He was not volunteering.
Speaker A
00:14:50
He was unengaged in meetings.
Speaker A
00:14:51
And they had no idea what was going on to the point where they thought, we're going to have to fire him because we can't have somebody whose performance has, you know, has gotten so abysmal.
Speaker A
00:15:02
And then finally they asked him, like, what's going on?
Speaker A
00:15:05
And it turned out his wife was dying.
Speaker A
00:15:07
He hadn't wanted to bring it in up at work because he thought my personal issues should be my personal issues.
Speaker A
00:15:12
But that never really works, right?
Speaker A
00:15:14
Like.
Speaker A
00:15:14
Like, trauma isn't like a jacket that you can just hang up when it's time to go to work.
Speaker A
00:15:18
And now I'm ready.
Speaker A
00:15:19
Like, it.
Speaker A
00:15:19
It affects everything we do.
Speaker A
00:15:21
And so that's why I'm so grateful that they took the time to have that conversation with him.
Speaker A
00:15:26
And that's often all that's needed.
Speaker A
00:15:28
He just needed to be invited, like, it's okay to open up.
Speaker A
00:15:32
And then once he did that, his performance did a 180 just because he knew that they cared.
Speaker A
00:15:38
Right.
Speaker A
00:15:39
Like, they did get supports around him.
Speaker A
00:15:40
But even before that happened, just the fact that they checked in, that they expressed care of him made a huge impact in his kind of willingness to be himself, to feel like he could be authentic in who he was in his work.
Speaker A
00:15:56
Please.
Speaker B
00:15:57
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:15:57
What I hear in what you're sharing here, too, is maybe like, a distinction between, like, treating somebody as a whole human versus like, just a performance improvement scenario.
Speaker B
00:16:07
And I wonder, too, you Know, if that conversation may have happened earlier, you know, would that have maybe alleviated some of the suffering a little earlier on for that individual?
Speaker B
00:16:15
You know, this, I guess brings up a question for me, Catherine, and you know, in terms of how you work with leaders within the workplace, like, what are some of the tactics and some of the strategies that you help teach and inform on so that people can get a better understanding of these impacts of trauma and how to actually address them?
Speaker A
00:16:33
To me, a lot of it is being willing to have those conversations.
Speaker A
00:16:38
So there's research that shows that psychological safety is highest on teams where managers check in with their direct reports at least once a week.
Speaker A
00:16:46
So I think that's what everybody should be aiming for, is at least a weekly check in.
Speaker A
00:16:51
And that check in, of course it's on work matters too, but it's also on what else is going on with you.
Speaker A
00:16:57
I remember talking with one empathetic leader and she said, you know, if I'm doing a 30 minute check in, we might spend 25 minutes on all the stuff outside of work because if we can get through that, then we can handle the work stuff in five minutes.
Speaker A
00:17:09
That's not going to be hard.
Speaker A
00:17:11
So aiming for those weekly check ins, I also think it's worthwhile for teams to have an easy way for people to say that they're struggling without having to get into a lot of the detail of it.
Speaker A
00:17:23
So I've seen teams where they say I'm above the line or below the line, meaning like I'm operating at a deficit right now.
Speaker A
00:17:29
I've seen red light, green light, yellow light.
Speaker A
00:17:31
Or on a scale of 1 to 10, sometimes people just need an easy way to say I'm going to need a little extra space, a little extra grace today without having to get into like what, you know, that they were up all night fighting with their spouse or something like that.
Speaker A
00:17:45
You know, you just want to make it easy for people to kind of express a need for some help.
Speaker A
00:17:50
I also think it's really, really important for leaders to be taking care of their own mental health, which is, is often the hardest part.
Speaker A
00:17:57
I mean, I feel like every training I do that becomes a part of it is how are we taking care of ourselves?
Speaker A
00:18:03
Because when you're a leader in the workplace, your, you know, your demeanor, your, the ways that you show up at work, it affects everybody.
Speaker A
00:18:12
You know, you really have, it takes a toll on everybody.
Speaker A
00:18:15
Even if you think that you're handling it all fine, they know it.
Speaker A
00:18:19
They can see from the tenor of your responses by the Types of language that you use, they can tell if you're experiencing stress or burnout and they're going to, they're going to get a contagion effect of it.
Speaker A
00:18:31
So it's really, really important that leaders be managing their own self care as well.
Speaker A
00:18:36
And to help with that, you know, I always feel like, you know, like we do things every day to take care of our physical health.
Speaker A
00:18:44
Right.
Speaker A
00:18:44
Like we brush our teeth, we try to eat healthy meals, all of those things.
Speaker A
00:18:47
What are we doing every day to take care of our mental health?
Speaker A
00:18:50
Do you have anything, five minutes a day that you're devoting just to taking care of your mental health?
Speaker A
00:18:56
It could be meditation, it could be, you know, going for a run or playing the guitar.
Speaker A
00:19:01
Like there's a million different things that we can do.
Speaker A
00:19:04
But try to build in time for that every day because it really does pay dividends in terms of your own demeanor and well being and it affects your entire team.
Speaker B
00:19:15
Yeah, and imagine too, you know, employees are probably looking to leaders to get a signal for what type of behavior is appropriate and what type of self care is appropriate.
Speaker B
00:19:23
So if you as a leader or a manager aren't really taking care of yourself and aren't signaling that loudly, others that are reporting to you might not feel like that's a priority or might not take that as something that's serious.
Speaker A
00:19:34
100%.
Speaker A
00:19:35
I call it noisy self care.
Speaker A
00:19:37
Like you need to not only be engaging in self care but you gotta do it out loud.
Speaker A
00:19:41
So like there's, it's very different to say, on the one hand, you know, we've got an eap, they're phenomenal and confidential and I hope you reach out if you need help.
Speaker A
00:19:51
And then to say, on the other hand, we've got a phenomenal eap.
Speaker A
00:19:54
They're, they're free, they're confidential, they really help me when I need it.
Speaker A
00:19:58
And I hope that you'll reach out if you could use some help.
Speaker A
00:20:00
Like when we say that second thing, we make it possible for everybody else to do the same.
Speaker A
00:20:04
So you're 100% right.
Speaker A
00:20:06
We've got to make sure that we're modeling that self care for others too.
Speaker B
00:20:09
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:20:10
And imagine too, you know, budgetary constraints, time constraints, like the pace of work is increasing these days.
Speaker B
00:20:16
Layoffs have basically constrained a lot of available workforce to do the same types of work that needs to be done.
Speaker B
00:20:22
The argument might be, is like, well like this is all fine and good and empathy is important, but like we're busy and we don't have time Right now, Like, what would you.
Speaker B
00:20:29
What would your response to that be?
Speaker A
00:20:31
You know, I feel like when you look at some of the engagement levels lately, like Gallup's most recent, you know, State of the Global Workplace poll, the engagement levels are showing that we are not.
Speaker A
00:20:43
We are not getting full work out of people.
Speaker A
00:20:46
So, yes, we are busy, but are we actually effective in our busyness?
Speaker A
00:20:50
And if we can just take a breath, check in on one another, check in on ourselves, we're gonna, like, just really amp up the engagement levels, and we will ultimately be more productive for it.
Speaker A
00:21:03
It's hard to.
Speaker A
00:21:04
It's hard to get out of that busyness culture.
Speaker A
00:21:07
You know, you feel all the time like, oh, the way that I show that I am valuable is by being a little bit breathless all the time and talking all the time about how busy I am.
Speaker A
00:21:16
But if we can just maybe step back from that for a second and just analyze, like, are we actually effective in our busyness?
Speaker A
00:21:23
And, like, maybe if we just take a beat, we can actually get more done more creatively, more effectively, more quickly if we take that time to make sure that our mental health is okay and so is the people.
Speaker A
00:21:38
So is that of the people around us, you know?
Speaker B
00:21:42
So I guess a question that comes up for me, and I've run into this a lot, you know, both with my own experience in the workplace and then with.
Speaker B
00:21:48
With friends of mine who maybe waited longer than they probably should have to get help or maybe weren't able to identify that they needed help right away.
Speaker B
00:21:55
So I guess the question that I have, and maybe this is both for leaders as well as for just colleagues and employees, is how do you advise?
Speaker B
00:22:02
What do you advise that, you know, if you see somebody that's struggling but they aren't opening up about it, like, what do you do in the face of something like that?
Speaker A
00:22:10
Yeah, it's hard.
Speaker A
00:22:11
You know, it's hard because it can affect the team culture, and you worry about your colleague.
Speaker A
00:22:18
The reality is we can never force somebody to open up if they're not ready.
Speaker A
00:22:22
All we can do is continually make sure that they know that it is okay to open up.
Speaker A
00:22:26
So do that.
Speaker A
00:22:28
Easy.
Speaker A
00:22:28
Check in.
Speaker A
00:22:29
It's a lot.
Speaker A
00:22:30
A lot more natural if you already have a culture of doing that.
Speaker A
00:22:32
So that's one of the reasons it's a good idea to have a culture of checking in on each other, even remotely, but certainly in person.
Speaker A
00:22:40
Just drop a quick message to them like, hey, and then the key is factual, so you don't want to get into, like, I've noticed you've seen off, because sometimes people will take that personally and they'll get upset.
Speaker A
00:22:53
Instead, it's more just, hey, I noticed you were kind of quiet in staff meeting.
Speaker A
00:22:57
Everything okay?
Speaker A
00:22:59
Just thinking of you.
Speaker A
00:23:00
Let me know if you'd like to go get a quick cup of coffee later.
Speaker A
00:23:03
Maybe they'll take you up on it, maybe not.
Speaker A
00:23:05
But even if they don't, don't underestimate the value of that check in, because often it can have an impact that you don't even see.
Speaker A
00:23:14
And maybe later they'll come to you and open up.
Speaker A
00:23:17
But even if they don't, just knowing that somebody cared enough to actually see them and check in can have a really incredible impact.
Speaker B
00:23:26
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:23:26
And imagine too, you know, even if someone checks in, like, on the individual, if they're struggling, there might be this threshold of like, well, I'm not struggling that much, or maybe nobody can really tell or notice that I'm struggling.
Speaker B
00:23:36
So if somebody mentions like, hey, I noticed that there's something that's, that's different and we want to be here and to support you, that might be enough of a catalyst for somebody to say, oh, maybe this is a bigger deal than I actually feel that it is.
Speaker B
00:23:47
You know, perhaps I should actually get that help that's being offered.
Speaker A
00:23:50
Yep, absolutely.
Speaker A
00:23:51
Absolutely.
Speaker A
00:23:52
And I also let me make a quick plea to, to everybody that it really is okay to open up about the things that you're struggling with.
Speaker A
00:24:00
You know, I think I've certainly done this in my life.
Speaker A
00:24:03
Well, I don't want to burden people.
Speaker A
00:24:04
I don't, you know, I don't want to put this on others, but having been on the other side of that, that where people afterward will say to me, you know, I'm so sorry that I burdened you with this, or I took all your time.
Speaker A
00:24:15
I never feel like they took too much of my time.
Speaker A
00:24:17
I.
Speaker A
00:24:17
I feel grateful that they opened up.
Speaker A
00:24:20
I feel closer to them because they were willing to be authentic with me.
Speaker A
00:24:24
So be willing to, to share what you're actually going through.
Speaker A
00:24:28
Even if it feels like, God, I'm just venting.
Speaker A
00:24:30
It actually really does make you feel better afterward.
Speaker A
00:24:33
And the, the person trust that the other person can handle it.
Speaker B
00:24:38
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:24:38
And we know we touched on a little bit of this in terms of just like, some of the events that occurred over the last few years and kind of how it shifted the public discourse around trauma and around mental health in the workplace, but kind of at a more high level, you know, this idea of a trauma informed workplace.
Speaker B
00:24:53
I think this is actually a relatively new concept that a lot of people probably haven't ever actually heard those words together.
Speaker B
00:24:59
How have you actually seen this change over time?
Speaker B
00:25:02
And, you know, where do you feel like this is maybe heading in the future?
Speaker A
00:25:04
Future, yeah.
Speaker A
00:25:06
So interesting.
Speaker A
00:25:06
I mean, I think maybe the language is new, but, you know, I just, I feel like the idea of a.
Speaker A
00:25:13
Of a workplace that is cognizant of the, the trauma and distress of their workforce, of the community they serve, of their customers, I feel like that's been around for a long time.
Speaker A
00:25:25
And, you know, I often think back to this report that the US military wrote in the 1980s in the aftermath of an air disaster that killed 248 members of the 101st Airborne Division.
Speaker A
00:25:37
There was.
Speaker A
00:25:38
This was December 1985, and the military did this big investigation and report on how that trauma affected mission readiness and unit cohesion.
Speaker A
00:25:49
Like people's ability to do their job, did they come together?
Speaker A
00:25:52
Did they fall apart?
Speaker A
00:25:53
And they said at the time that it was leadership.
Speaker A
00:25:56
They called it grief leadership.
Speaker A
00:25:58
You know, it was leadership that made the biggest difference on those factors.
Speaker A
00:26:02
Like, were people able to acknowledge what people were going through?
Speaker A
00:26:07
Were they able to provide tangible support to the people who were grieving?
Speaker A
00:26:11
Were they able to model healthy responses to grief themselves?
Speaker A
00:26:14
And, you know, those are still the concepts that I'm teaching today, you know, here in the 2020s, those same types of ideas, like, are people feeling acknowledged?
Speaker A
00:26:24
Are they getting help when they need it?
Speaker A
00:26:26
And, you know, the word trauma is one that sometimes people shy away from because they think trauma, like you have to have been, you know, either it's associated with sexual assault or combat.
Speaker A
00:26:38
You know, it's like where the word trauma leans on.
Speaker A
00:26:42
And I don't care what language people use for it.
Speaker A
00:26:44
My main concern is, are people acknowledging that there are people in their workforce who are going through a hard time, and are we showing up for them in the world ways that they need to?
Speaker A
00:26:55
And I do see that that is happening more and more, in part because people are recognizing, you kind of can't, you can't have a workplace now without acknowledging that, without seeing it.
Speaker A
00:27:06
I mean, it's always been there.
Speaker A
00:27:07
Like, we've always worked with people who are dealing with addiction, domestic violence, with grief and loss.
Speaker A
00:27:13
All of those things have always been in the workplace.
Speaker A
00:27:15
But I think what's changed is now our, our willingness to discuss it and frankly, our need to discuss it.
Speaker A
00:27:22
And so what I'm trying to help people do is figure out ways to have those conversations that are effective and helpful that also recognize boundaries and take care of ourselves as we're doing it.
Speaker B
00:27:38
I've had many conversations with leaders, both clients of mine and also in the workplace itself.
Speaker B
00:27:43
And sometimes it's, it's more rare than, than not, but sometimes you'll get a leader that's like, you know, I don't want to be a therapist.
Speaker B
00:27:50
I don't want to be a psychologist.
Speaker B
00:27:51
Like, it's not my role.
Speaker B
00:27:52
My role is to get performance out of the employee and to do these okrs and to get us to this, this goal.
Speaker B
00:27:58
I guess the question I have here is, you know, as you're working as a consultant and an educator and an author, you know, what are some of the challenges that you see that organizations face or individual leaders face in terms of becoming more trauma aware or trauma informed and empathetic in the workplace?
Speaker A
00:28:13
Yeah, I mean, I've certainly heard that before.
Speaker A
00:28:16
And I mean, I don't want you to be your colleagues or your employees therapist.
Speaker A
00:28:20
Like, we don't have the skills for that.
Speaker A
00:28:21
That's not appropriate for the workplace.
Speaker A
00:28:24
To me, I really see this as it's kind of the emt, mental health emt, like you're the one on the scene, you see the problem, you provide some immediate support, you get them off to the experts, you're not there to, to kind of talk through their childhood traumas or anything like that.
Speaker A
00:28:40
Remember, it all comes back to, is there something that is affecting their ability to perform?
Speaker A
00:28:46
And then let's get them the help that they need.
Speaker A
00:28:49
And then in terms of like, how to do it, you know, I do agree that there are folks who, who feel like, gosh, I don't know if I'm going to do this effectively.
Speaker A
00:28:58
I'm afraid I'm going to mess it up.
Speaker A
00:29:01
And, and I actually like, I love those folks.
Speaker A
00:29:05
To me, those are some of the best people to work with.
Speaker A
00:29:08
Because what I hear under that is I want to get better at it.
Speaker A
00:29:14
And really, it's just, if you can just kind of work on listening and acknowledging what they've been through, just curb your impulse to fix it.
Speaker A
00:29:24
Just say, that sounds really hard.
Speaker A
00:29:26
How can I help?
Speaker A
00:29:27
Honestly, you have done so, so much.
Speaker A
00:29:30
And in terms of the impact on your workforce, like the trust that you're building, people's ability to get help when they need it, it's going to have a tremendous impact.
Speaker A
00:29:40
So, you know, I know that a lot of people feel like, gosh, this isn't my job as a supervisor, but I mean, what their research shows there was this fascinating study that Harvard Business School did where they asked people, do you feel it is the manager's job to be concerned with their employees mental health health.
Speaker A
00:29:57
And the majority of managers said, no, that's not my job, obviously, like I have another job.
Speaker A
00:30:02
And the majority of the employees said, absolutely, that is central to their role.
Speaker A
00:30:06
So whether you think it is your job or not, your employees think it's your job and they're expecting it of you.
Speaker A
00:30:12
So it's worthwhile to spend a little time and effort to get comfortable with it because it's going to make a difference and certainly they're expecting it of you.
Speaker B
00:30:22
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:30:22
And I've read many different reports that say, like, leaders and managers have the most outsized impact on the well being of an employee within a workplace and potentially also their mental health.
Speaker B
00:30:32
So to your point, you know, even if this isn't something that is like, oh, this isn't in the remit of my job, this is definitely something that's a phenomenon within the workplace and is something that needs to be addressed.
Speaker A
00:30:42
Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker B
00:30:44
So Catherine, I'm curious, you know, if you were to kind of boil everything down and if there's like one core message you wanted to make sure people take away from the work that you're doing and from the book, what would that be?
Speaker A
00:30:56
You know, I think it's essential for all of us to recognize that we are.
Speaker A
00:31:00
Our job is to work with humans.
Speaker A
00:31:02
Even if you're in it, you know, your job is the humans.
Speaker A
00:31:06
And so we have to recognize that humans are going to have human experiences sometimes they're going to have harder times, harder days, harder months, months, harder years.
Speaker A
00:31:15
And if we can figure out ways to help people thrive through those times, we're going to have a much more successful organization, a happier, healthier workforce.
Speaker A
00:31:27
And frankly, it's better for us too.
Speaker A
00:31:29
We'll feel stronger, happier, healthier ourselves.
Speaker B
00:31:32
That's beautiful.
Speaker B
00:31:34
So I've been asking this of all of the folks that I've been interviewing for the People Summit, and I'm curious your answer on this as well.
Speaker B
00:31:40
What brings you hope for the future?
Speaker A
00:31:42
Gosh, so much.
Speaker A
00:31:44
I mean, I will say it's been incredible, just such a privilege for me to work with these leaders around the world who are really thoughtful, caring and committed to trying to figure out how to build organizations that are more compassionate, more empathetic, recognizing that they still have to be effective.
Speaker A
00:32:06
You know, we still have missions, we have numbers.
Speaker A
00:32:08
All of those, the OKRs, all those things have to be met.
Speaker A
00:32:11
But within that, we can build organizations that are human centered, that are trauma informed, where the workforce feels acknowledged, seen, heard, and where they truly can thrive.
Speaker A
00:32:22
It is such a privilege for me.
Speaker A
00:32:24
I've been so grateful to see the ways that the people are moving the world in recent years.
Speaker A
00:32:31
Years.
Speaker B
00:32:31
Yeah, likewise.
Speaker B
00:32:33
Likewise.
Speaker B
00:32:33
Well, Catherine, thank you so much for the work that you're doing in the world.
Speaker B
00:32:36
It's so important.
Speaker B
00:32:37
If folks would like to learn more about you or follow you online, what are good places we could point people to?
00:00:00
In terms of the impact on your workforce, like the trust that you're building, people's ability to get help when they need it, it's going to have a tremendous impact.
Speaker A
00:00:09
I know that a lot of people feel like, gosh, this isn't my job as a supervisor, but what the research shows.
Speaker A
00:00:15
There was this fascinating study that Harvard Business School did where they asked people, do you feel it is the manager's job to be concerned with their employees mental health?
Speaker A
00:00:24
And the majority of managers said, no, that's not my job.
Speaker A
00:00:27
Obviously my career, I have another job.
Speaker A
00:00:29
And the majority of the employees said, absolutely, that is central to their role.
Speaker A
00:00:33
So whether you think it is your job or not, your employees think it's your job and they're expecting it of you.
Speaker A
00:00:39
So it's worthwhile to spend a little time and effort to get comfortable with it because it's going to make a difference and certainly they're expecting it of you.
Speaker B
00:00:48
Hey, friends.
Speaker C
00:00:49
Welcome to the Changing Work podcast.
Speaker C
00:00:52
We are so glad you're here.
Speaker B
00:00:54
My name is Nick.
Speaker C
00:00:55
And I'm Scott.
Speaker B
00:00:56
And this is the podcast where we talk about changing work from the inside out.
Speaker C
00:01:00
So if you're, if you're into making the workplace and the world a better experience via conscious business practices, stick around.
Speaker C
00:01:07
This is for you.
Speaker C
00:01:09
Into making the workplace and the world a better experience via conscious business practices, stick around.
Speaker C
00:01:16
This is for you.
Speaker B
00:01:18
Katherine, welcome.
Speaker A
00:01:20
Thank you.
Speaker A
00:01:21
Good morning.
Speaker B
00:01:22
Good morning.
Speaker B
00:01:23
That hold music was really nice.
Speaker B
00:01:24
I like that.
Speaker B
00:01:27
I'm going to read a quick bio here for you, but as I usually do, I feel like every time people read bios out loud, loud, there's always a couple little things here missing in the bios.
Speaker B
00:01:35
So I'm going to encourage you to think about one or two things you'd like to share beyond the bio that people might not know about you.
Speaker B
00:01:41
So.
Speaker B
00:01:41
Kathryn Manning is the president of Blackbird, which provides training and consultation on empathy at work.
Speaker B
00:01:46
She's the author of the Empathetic Workplace Five Steps to a Compassionate, Calm and Confident Response to Trauma on the Job and teaches at American University and in the Master's in Trauma Informed Leadership program at Dominican University.
Speaker B
00:02:00
Her work has been featured in the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Newsweek, CNBC, Business Insider, Thrive Global, and CEOWorld.
Speaker B
00:02:08
She's worked on issues of trauma and victimization for more than 25 years, including 15 years at the Justice Department, where she was a senior attorney advisor, consulting on victim issues in cases like the Boston Marathon bombing and the Pulse nightclub shooting.
Speaker B
00:02:22
Katherine, thank you so much for being here and thanks for the work you're doing in the world.
Speaker A
00:02:25
Thank you.
Speaker A
00:02:26
It's such a pleasure to see you.
Speaker A
00:02:27
Thank you for getting up so early to have this conversation.
Speaker A
00:02:30
I'm on the east coast, so for me, it's really not that bad.
Speaker B
00:02:33
Yeah, I'm in the mountain time in Colorado, so it's not that.
Speaker A
00:02:36
That.
Speaker B
00:02:36
That gave me a good reason to get up and see the sunrise this morning.
Speaker B
00:02:40
So I read your bio.
Speaker B
00:02:41
What.
Speaker B
00:02:42
What else do people need to know about you that isn't kind of encapsulated in your bio?
Speaker A
00:02:46
You know, I think often what people will say to me is, so you're a lawyer, but your job is empathy.
Speaker A
00:02:53
And, like, how did that happen?
Speaker A
00:02:55
Because for most people, that's kind of surprising.
Speaker A
00:02:58
So let me just flesh that out a little bit, I guess.
Speaker A
00:03:01
You know, I am a lawyer, but I'm a lawyer who has always worked with crime victims.
Speaker A
00:03:05
I started off really back in college doing hotline work, domestic violence, rape crisis kind of work.
Speaker A
00:03:11
It was that.
Speaker A
00:03:12
That really pushed me to go to law school because I felt like the ways people were being treated in the legal system, it wasn't really set up to protect the most vulnerable.
Speaker A
00:03:21
And that's what made me really want to go to law school.
Speaker A
00:03:24
And after law school, I ended up at DOJ at the Justice Department here in D.C.
Speaker A
00:03:29
and my role was victims rights, which mean that I would kind of help the department figure out how to support victims in cases, anything from fraud to terrorism to human trafficking.
Speaker A
00:03:42
A couple of things started to become clear to me over the years.
Speaker A
00:03:45
I was there for about 15 years.
Speaker A
00:03:46
It was a long time.
Speaker A
00:03:48
One thing I started to realize was that people didn't need different things based on what they were a victim of.
Speaker A
00:03:53
Like, it wasn't like, the way you would support a victim of terrorism was that different from the way you would support a victim of human trafficking.
Speaker A
00:04:00
Like, everybody needed a voice in the proceedings and what was happening to them.
Speaker A
00:04:05
Everybody needed to feel heard.
Speaker A
00:04:07
Everybody needed transparency and information.
Speaker A
00:04:10
Everybody needed some help, like sometimes tangible monetary help or other kinds of support to get on their feet again.
Speaker A
00:04:18
And then the other thing that I started to realize was that it wasn't just the victims in our cases who needed those things.
Speaker A
00:04:24
It was all of us.
Speaker A
00:04:25
It was my colleagues, it was my employees, my supervisors.
Speaker A
00:04:29
It was me.
Speaker A
00:04:31
And I realized these skills I had learned in how to support people through these really horrific life circumstances were also valuable in supporting a colleague whose father was dying or somebody who's going through a divorce.
Speaker A
00:04:46
And I just started to understand that the Ways we support people in particular in those really difficult life moments which we're all going to have.
Speaker A
00:04:56
The ways we show up for people then have a lasting impact on their well being, their healing.
Speaker A
00:05:03
They're able to get ability to get through it.
Speaker A
00:05:05
On our trust, like the ways that we interact with each other.
Speaker A
00:05:09
I certainly feel closest to people who have stood by me in my hard moments and then ultimately on our ability to do our jobs.
Speaker A
00:05:17
Because if we aren't, if we don't have trust of our colleagues, if we don't feel like we're getting support when we need it, we're not really engaged and thriving in the ways of work that we need to be.
Speaker A
00:05:27
So that's.
Speaker A
00:05:28
It was kind of that realization and also in part sparked by Me too in 2018, just seeing how these issues were showing up all over the place.
Speaker A
00:05:37
That's when I started working on my book.
Speaker A
00:05:39
And since then, since 2019, I've been kind of on my own doing training and consulting on these topics.
Speaker B
00:05:47
Well, that's great.
Speaker B
00:05:48
There's a lot there to unpack.
Speaker B
00:05:49
But you know, so much of what you're sharing seems to me to be kind of like almost like table stakes.
Speaker B
00:05:53
We're talking about kind of like empathy, treating people like humans, passionate understanding that people are going through large.
Speaker B
00:05:59
Well, they're going through a lot.
Speaker B
00:06:00
You know, there's a lot to hold there.
Speaker B
00:06:03
You mentioned your book, the Empathetic Workplace.
Speaker B
00:06:05
Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker B
00:06:06
I'm kind of curious, like where does play a role within the workplace?
Speaker A
00:06:11
Yeah, it's such a great question because I agree it is like table stakes.
Speaker A
00:06:15
It seems like of course you're going to be kind to people when they're going through hard times.
Speaker A
00:06:19
And yet one of the things I saw in my work at DOJ and since then is as much as we want to be really compassionate and present and kind, when people are going through a hard time, it's not easy to do.
Speaker A
00:06:32
Like, particularly at work.
Speaker A
00:06:34
I think we sort of panic a little bit.
Speaker A
00:06:36
Like we, we shut down, we freeze up.
Speaker A
00:06:39
And a lot of that is just kind of the way that we're wired.
Speaker A
00:06:42
You know, I think we are hardwired for empathy and sometimes that means that we get a little like contagion effect of the stress of the person that we're interacting with.
Speaker A
00:06:50
Sometimes it's just hard to hear about stuff.
Speaker A
00:06:52
And you know, another thing is I think at work, often our, our knee jerk reaction is my job is to fix this.
Speaker A
00:07:02
Which in a lot of situations at work is great.
Speaker A
00:07:05
Like that's really.
Speaker A
00:07:06
But when you're interacting with somebody who's really struggling, that's maybe not super effective.
Speaker A
00:07:12
Like just a quick story, there was a guy I was talking to who was the head of a team.
Speaker A
00:07:16
He was the CTO of a big company and one of his team members came to him and said, I need you to understand that I'm in the midst of a severe depression right now and in fact I'm suicidal.
Speaker A
00:07:27
And what this CTO said to me was, my reaction was, well, this is my guy.
Speaker A
00:07:32
Like I'm responsible for him, I'm supposed to be taking care of him.
Speaker A
00:07:36
And so he thought, I have to fix this, I have to make it better for him.
Speaker A
00:07:39
And so his response was, well, have you tried exercise?
Speaker A
00:07:43
Which for somebody who's suicidal can come across as really blaming or minimizing, which was the opposite of what this man was trying to do.
Speaker A
00:07:50
He just, he didn't really know what to say.
Speaker A
00:07:53
So that's really what the book is.
Speaker A
00:07:54
The book is what do you say in that moment?
Speaker A
00:07:57
And it's five steps.
Speaker A
00:07:59
This is something that I kind of developed after, was really after me too.
Speaker A
00:08:03
And seeing I felt like so often people were kind of bumbling that response when somebody would share something.
Speaker A
00:08:09
So to me, the five steps to an empathetic response to somebody sharing their story of trauma or distress at work are one, listen, which is active listening to acknowledge, which is just letting them know you heard them.
Speaker A
00:08:21
Thanks for sharing that.
Speaker A
00:08:23
I had no idea.
Speaker A
00:08:23
I'm sorry for everything you're going through.
Speaker A
00:08:25
Third step is share and this is about transparency, sharing information about, you know, we have a complaint process or here's what we know about that incident of workplace violence.
Speaker A
00:08:36
The share is really about transparency.
Speaker A
00:08:38
The fourth step is empower, which is about giving them access to resources they might need to get on their feet again, like EAP or I don't know, other kinds of mental health, flexible work, security options.
Speaker A
00:08:50
And then the fifth step is return, which is both later checking in on the person and also importantly, it's about returning to yourself, like recognizing that supporting others takes a toll on us and we need to be managing our own self care and well being to be able to continue to do the work that we need to do too.
Speaker B
00:09:08
Yeah, it's such a really beautiful framework, you know, and I think to your point, you know, people tend, if they don't have a framework, if they don't have a process to work through, like you mentioned, people might tend to freeze up or that whatever just kind of falls out of their mouth, which might be good intended, but might not actually be helping in the ways that the individual might need.
Speaker B
00:09:24
I mean, so much of this, I think, also comes around to, like, mental health awareness and just understanding the impact of trauma and other events on people's psyche or their mental health.
Speaker B
00:09:33
You know, I'm kind of curious, and you mentioned the Me Too movement.
Speaker B
00:09:36
Imagine, like, George Floyd, the pandemic, and all these things that have happened over the last few years, probably continuously compounding the impact of trauma and struggle within the workplace.
Speaker B
00:09:47
Are you seeing kind of a shift within the workplace and the people that you're talking to, where they're needing more and more of these resources or support?
Speaker A
00:09:54
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A
00:09:55
I mean, I think.
Speaker A
00:09:56
I think it's a couple things.
Speaker A
00:09:58
I do think that we have, you know, we've been impacted by everything that's been going on.
Speaker A
00:10:04
I sometimes say it feels like trauma is the air we're breathing in 2020.
Speaker A
00:10:07
Ever since 2020 started up to today, it's like hit after hit after hit.
Speaker A
00:10:13
And I think it is taking a toll on us.
Speaker A
00:10:15
And certainly the statistics bear that out, like rates of anxiety and depression and stress and anger, and all of those things are on the rise.
Speaker A
00:10:22
I'm sure you're familiar with that.
Speaker A
00:10:24
You're seeing it yourself.
Speaker A
00:10:26
So I think that's some of it.
Speaker A
00:10:27
I also think that people are just talking about it more.
Speaker A
00:10:31
I feel like one of the impacts of the pandemic, like, we were.
Speaker A
00:10:36
It both.
Speaker A
00:10:37
It was broad.
Speaker A
00:10:38
You know, I mean, the.
Speaker A
00:10:39
The trauma and distress was kind of affecting everybody because of COVID and George Floyd and environmental disasters and everything.
Speaker A
00:10:46
So it was more widespread.
Speaker A
00:10:48
But also, like, we were.
Speaker A
00:10:49
We were in each other's homes.
Speaker A
00:10:50
You know, you're.
Speaker A
00:10:51
You're getting this glimpse and you hear the baby crying in the next room.
Speaker A
00:10:55
You.
Speaker A
00:10:55
You know, you're just really getting a sense of intimacy that I think we didn't really have before.
Speaker A
00:11:00
And I think also this is being driven a lot by the millennials.
Speaker A
00:11:06
I just feel like there is, again, statistics kind of bear this out.
Speaker A
00:11:10
There is a sense of we're not willing to just kind of keep our mouth shut and show up for work.
Speaker A
00:11:16
We expect that our workplace is going to share our values, that they're going to try to support us as whole humans and not just focus on, like, well, did you get that report out by Thursday or not?
Speaker A
00:11:28
So I think the workplaces are changing.
Speaker A
00:11:29
And that's certainly what I'm seeing in my work is from every type of organization, some that.
Speaker A
00:11:36
That people think, well, that's there's, you know, that's a type of organization that you would think there's no way that they care about this, including law enforcement, including the military, including, you know, engineering, banking, you know, industries that you wouldn't necessarily think are prioritizing this, are prioritizing it now because they realize they have to if they want to continue to, to thrive, to expand, to grow, even just to continue.
Speaker A
00:12:02
I think it's essential right now.
Speaker B
00:12:04
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B
00:12:05
And, you know, I think so we're talking about trauma, you know, and I think there's like.
Speaker B
00:12:10
Like what?
Speaker B
00:12:10
I like capital T trauma and lowercase T trauma.
Speaker B
00:12:13
But, you know, this is a word that has been coming up more and more and more, I think you mentioned, since 2020.
Speaker B
00:12:17
I think, to your point, millennials, Gen Zs, there's just a greater awareness of mental health and the impact of everything that's going on on the world, on people's ability to perform well within the workplace.
Speaker B
00:12:28
But maybe we can get a little bit more granular here.
Speaker B
00:12:30
Like, you know, what, what is trauma?
Speaker B
00:12:32
And like, how does this actually show up in the workplace?
Speaker B
00:12:34
Like, what things would we be looking out for?
Speaker A
00:12:37
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A
00:12:38
So trauma is one of those words that just.
Speaker A
00:12:41
It feels like everybody has their own understanding of it.
Speaker A
00:12:43
And I think a lot of people use it without really, like, people are using it differently and getting kind of frustrated about that.
Speaker A
00:12:50
So the definition of trauma I use in my work is that it's a psychological injury that impairs your performance.
Speaker A
00:12:57
This is kind of a slimmed down version of the definition of victim used by the Substance Abuse Mental Health Services Administration or sam.
Speaker A
00:13:05
What I like about the SAMHSA definition is that in contrast to a lot of other definitions, it doesn't give you like a listing of life events and say if you've experienced one of these, you experience trauma.
Speaker A
00:13:15
I'm not crazy about that kind of definition because we all respond differently to similar or even the exact same event.
Speaker A
00:13:22
Like if you had three people in a car accident together, maybe one of them is a little shaken up, but is able to kind of engage with others at the scene.
Speaker A
00:13:30
Check, check in, you know, make sure everybody's okay and make their way to work and be kind of okay.
Speaker A
00:13:35
Maybe another one falls apart at the scene, can't go into work that day, can't get in a car for a week, Maybe the third one seems fine, goes into work, and then the next day falls apart.
Speaker A
00:13:44
Like, none of those is the right reaction.
Speaker A
00:13:47
They're all just within the range of normal human responses to A traumatizing event.
Speaker A
00:13:51
So I don't want us to get too caught up in what happened to you.
Speaker A
00:13:55
And then I will determine whether that's trauma or not.
Speaker A
00:13:58
It's, to me, much more effective just to be kind of keyed in on the person in front of you and see, like, does this person need some help in order to be able to do the things that they need and want to do?
Speaker A
00:14:08
And if so, let's get them some help now.
Speaker A
00:14:12
You know, how can you recognize that?
Speaker A
00:14:14
It's probably things that people are already noticing.
Speaker A
00:14:17
Like, it's.
Speaker A
00:14:19
It's often a change in behavior.
Speaker A
00:14:21
So they're.
Speaker A
00:14:23
They're somebody who is normally really, really rigorous about showing up at work on time, and then suddenly they're not.
Speaker A
00:14:29
Their performance has changed really quickly.
Speaker A
00:14:31
There was one guy I was talking to who was a CEO of a company, and he talked about their head of sales, who had always been just a pillar of the company, really, really essential to their success.
Speaker A
00:14:43
And then he said one day his performance just fell off a cliff, and he was showing a blade.
Speaker A
00:14:48
He was not volunteering.
Speaker A
00:14:50
He was unengaged in meetings.
Speaker A
00:14:51
And they had no idea what was going on to the point where they thought, we're going to have to fire him because we can't have somebody whose performance has, you know, has gotten so abysmal.
Speaker A
00:15:02
And then finally they asked him, like, what's going on?
Speaker A
00:15:05
And it turned out his wife was dying.
Speaker A
00:15:07
He hadn't wanted to bring it in up at work because he thought my personal issues should be my personal issues.
Speaker A
00:15:12
But that never really works, right?
Speaker A
00:15:14
Like.
Speaker A
00:15:14
Like, trauma isn't like a jacket that you can just hang up when it's time to go to work.
Speaker A
00:15:18
And now I'm ready.
Speaker A
00:15:19
Like, it.
Speaker A
00:15:19
It affects everything we do.
Speaker A
00:15:21
And so that's why I'm so grateful that they took the time to have that conversation with him.
Speaker A
00:15:26
And that's often all that's needed.
Speaker A
00:15:28
He just needed to be invited, like, it's okay to open up.
Speaker A
00:15:32
And then once he did that, his performance did a 180 just because he knew that they cared.
Speaker A
00:15:38
Right.
Speaker A
00:15:39
Like, they did get supports around him.
Speaker A
00:15:40
But even before that happened, just the fact that they checked in, that they expressed care of him made a huge impact in his kind of willingness to be himself, to feel like he could be authentic in who he was in his work.
Speaker A
00:15:56
Please.
Speaker B
00:15:57
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:15:57
What I hear in what you're sharing here, too, is maybe like, a distinction between, like, treating somebody as a whole human versus like, just a performance improvement scenario.
Speaker B
00:16:07
And I wonder, too, you Know, if that conversation may have happened earlier, you know, would that have maybe alleviated some of the suffering a little earlier on for that individual?
Speaker B
00:16:15
You know, this, I guess brings up a question for me, Catherine, and you know, in terms of how you work with leaders within the workplace, like, what are some of the tactics and some of the strategies that you help teach and inform on so that people can get a better understanding of these impacts of trauma and how to actually address them?
Speaker A
00:16:33
To me, a lot of it is being willing to have those conversations.
Speaker A
00:16:38
So there's research that shows that psychological safety is highest on teams where managers check in with their direct reports at least once a week.
Speaker A
00:16:46
So I think that's what everybody should be aiming for, is at least a weekly check in.
Speaker A
00:16:51
And that check in, of course it's on work matters too, but it's also on what else is going on with you.
Speaker A
00:16:57
I remember talking with one empathetic leader and she said, you know, if I'm doing a 30 minute check in, we might spend 25 minutes on all the stuff outside of work because if we can get through that, then we can handle the work stuff in five minutes.
Speaker A
00:17:09
That's not going to be hard.
Speaker A
00:17:11
So aiming for those weekly check ins, I also think it's worthwhile for teams to have an easy way for people to say that they're struggling without having to get into a lot of the detail of it.
Speaker A
00:17:23
So I've seen teams where they say I'm above the line or below the line, meaning like I'm operating at a deficit right now.
Speaker A
00:17:29
I've seen red light, green light, yellow light.
Speaker A
00:17:31
Or on a scale of 1 to 10, sometimes people just need an easy way to say I'm going to need a little extra space, a little extra grace today without having to get into like what, you know, that they were up all night fighting with their spouse or something like that.
Speaker A
00:17:45
You know, you just want to make it easy for people to kind of express a need for some help.
Speaker A
00:17:50
I also think it's really, really important for leaders to be taking care of their own mental health, which is, is often the hardest part.
Speaker A
00:17:57
I mean, I feel like every training I do that becomes a part of it is how are we taking care of ourselves?
Speaker A
00:18:03
Because when you're a leader in the workplace, your, you know, your demeanor, your, the ways that you show up at work, it affects everybody.
Speaker A
00:18:12
You know, you really have, it takes a toll on everybody.
Speaker A
00:18:15
Even if you think that you're handling it all fine, they know it.
Speaker A
00:18:19
They can see from the tenor of your responses by the Types of language that you use, they can tell if you're experiencing stress or burnout and they're going to, they're going to get a contagion effect of it.
Speaker A
00:18:31
So it's really, really important that leaders be managing their own self care as well.
Speaker A
00:18:36
And to help with that, you know, I always feel like, you know, like we do things every day to take care of our physical health.
Speaker A
00:18:44
Right.
Speaker A
00:18:44
Like we brush our teeth, we try to eat healthy meals, all of those things.
Speaker A
00:18:47
What are we doing every day to take care of our mental health?
Speaker A
00:18:50
Do you have anything, five minutes a day that you're devoting just to taking care of your mental health?
Speaker A
00:18:56
It could be meditation, it could be, you know, going for a run or playing the guitar.
Speaker A
00:19:01
Like there's a million different things that we can do.
Speaker A
00:19:04
But try to build in time for that every day because it really does pay dividends in terms of your own demeanor and well being and it affects your entire team.
Speaker B
00:19:15
Yeah, and imagine too, you know, employees are probably looking to leaders to get a signal for what type of behavior is appropriate and what type of self care is appropriate.
Speaker B
00:19:23
So if you as a leader or a manager aren't really taking care of yourself and aren't signaling that loudly, others that are reporting to you might not feel like that's a priority or might not take that as something that's serious.
Speaker A
00:19:34
100%.
Speaker A
00:19:35
I call it noisy self care.
Speaker A
00:19:37
Like you need to not only be engaging in self care but you gotta do it out loud.
Speaker A
00:19:41
So like there's, it's very different to say, on the one hand, you know, we've got an eap, they're phenomenal and confidential and I hope you reach out if you need help.
Speaker A
00:19:51
And then to say, on the other hand, we've got a phenomenal eap.
Speaker A
00:19:54
They're, they're free, they're confidential, they really help me when I need it.
Speaker A
00:19:58
And I hope that you'll reach out if you could use some help.
Speaker A
00:20:00
Like when we say that second thing, we make it possible for everybody else to do the same.
Speaker A
00:20:04
So you're 100% right.
Speaker A
00:20:06
We've got to make sure that we're modeling that self care for others too.
Speaker B
00:20:09
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:20:10
And imagine too, you know, budgetary constraints, time constraints, like the pace of work is increasing these days.
Speaker B
00:20:16
Layoffs have basically constrained a lot of available workforce to do the same types of work that needs to be done.
Speaker B
00:20:22
The argument might be, is like, well like this is all fine and good and empathy is important, but like we're busy and we don't have time Right now, Like, what would you.
Speaker B
00:20:29
What would your response to that be?
Speaker A
00:20:31
You know, I feel like when you look at some of the engagement levels lately, like Gallup's most recent, you know, State of the Global Workplace poll, the engagement levels are showing that we are not.
Speaker A
00:20:43
We are not getting full work out of people.
Speaker A
00:20:46
So, yes, we are busy, but are we actually effective in our busyness?
Speaker A
00:20:50
And if we can just take a breath, check in on one another, check in on ourselves, we're gonna, like, just really amp up the engagement levels, and we will ultimately be more productive for it.
Speaker A
00:21:03
It's hard to.
Speaker A
00:21:04
It's hard to get out of that busyness culture.
Speaker A
00:21:07
You know, you feel all the time like, oh, the way that I show that I am valuable is by being a little bit breathless all the time and talking all the time about how busy I am.
Speaker A
00:21:16
But if we can just maybe step back from that for a second and just analyze, like, are we actually effective in our busyness?
Speaker A
00:21:23
And, like, maybe if we just take a beat, we can actually get more done more creatively, more effectively, more quickly if we take that time to make sure that our mental health is okay and so is the people.
Speaker A
00:21:38
So is that of the people around us, you know?
Speaker B
00:21:42
So I guess a question that comes up for me, and I've run into this a lot, you know, both with my own experience in the workplace and then with.
Speaker B
00:21:48
With friends of mine who maybe waited longer than they probably should have to get help or maybe weren't able to identify that they needed help right away.
Speaker B
00:21:55
So I guess the question that I have, and maybe this is both for leaders as well as for just colleagues and employees, is how do you advise?
Speaker B
00:22:02
What do you advise that, you know, if you see somebody that's struggling but they aren't opening up about it, like, what do you do in the face of something like that?
Speaker A
00:22:10
Yeah, it's hard.
Speaker A
00:22:11
You know, it's hard because it can affect the team culture, and you worry about your colleague.
Speaker A
00:22:18
The reality is we can never force somebody to open up if they're not ready.
Speaker A
00:22:22
All we can do is continually make sure that they know that it is okay to open up.
Speaker A
00:22:26
So do that.
Speaker A
00:22:28
Easy.
Speaker A
00:22:28
Check in.
Speaker A
00:22:29
It's a lot.
Speaker A
00:22:30
A lot more natural if you already have a culture of doing that.
Speaker A
00:22:32
So that's one of the reasons it's a good idea to have a culture of checking in on each other, even remotely, but certainly in person.
Speaker A
00:22:40
Just drop a quick message to them like, hey, and then the key is factual, so you don't want to get into, like, I've noticed you've seen off, because sometimes people will take that personally and they'll get upset.
Speaker A
00:22:53
Instead, it's more just, hey, I noticed you were kind of quiet in staff meeting.
Speaker A
00:22:57
Everything okay?
Speaker A
00:22:59
Just thinking of you.
Speaker A
00:23:00
Let me know if you'd like to go get a quick cup of coffee later.
Speaker A
00:23:03
Maybe they'll take you up on it, maybe not.
Speaker A
00:23:05
But even if they don't, don't underestimate the value of that check in, because often it can have an impact that you don't even see.
Speaker A
00:23:14
And maybe later they'll come to you and open up.
Speaker A
00:23:17
But even if they don't, just knowing that somebody cared enough to actually see them and check in can have a really incredible impact.
Speaker B
00:23:26
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:23:26
And imagine too, you know, even if someone checks in, like, on the individual, if they're struggling, there might be this threshold of like, well, I'm not struggling that much, or maybe nobody can really tell or notice that I'm struggling.
Speaker B
00:23:36
So if somebody mentions like, hey, I noticed that there's something that's, that's different and we want to be here and to support you, that might be enough of a catalyst for somebody to say, oh, maybe this is a bigger deal than I actually feel that it is.
Speaker B
00:23:47
You know, perhaps I should actually get that help that's being offered.
Speaker A
00:23:50
Yep, absolutely.
Speaker A
00:23:51
Absolutely.
Speaker A
00:23:52
And I also let me make a quick plea to, to everybody that it really is okay to open up about the things that you're struggling with.
Speaker A
00:24:00
You know, I think I've certainly done this in my life.
Speaker A
00:24:03
Well, I don't want to burden people.
Speaker A
00:24:04
I don't, you know, I don't want to put this on others, but having been on the other side of that, that where people afterward will say to me, you know, I'm so sorry that I burdened you with this, or I took all your time.
Speaker A
00:24:15
I never feel like they took too much of my time.
Speaker A
00:24:17
I.
Speaker A
00:24:17
I feel grateful that they opened up.
Speaker A
00:24:20
I feel closer to them because they were willing to be authentic with me.
Speaker A
00:24:24
So be willing to, to share what you're actually going through.
Speaker A
00:24:28
Even if it feels like, God, I'm just venting.
Speaker A
00:24:30
It actually really does make you feel better afterward.
Speaker A
00:24:33
And the, the person trust that the other person can handle it.
Speaker B
00:24:38
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:24:38
And we know we touched on a little bit of this in terms of just like, some of the events that occurred over the last few years and kind of how it shifted the public discourse around trauma and around mental health in the workplace, but kind of at a more high level, you know, this idea of a trauma informed workplace.
Speaker B
00:24:53
I think this is actually a relatively new concept that a lot of people probably haven't ever actually heard those words together.
Speaker B
00:24:59
How have you actually seen this change over time?
Speaker B
00:25:02
And, you know, where do you feel like this is maybe heading in the future?
Speaker A
00:25:04
Future, yeah.
Speaker A
00:25:06
So interesting.
Speaker A
00:25:06
I mean, I think maybe the language is new, but, you know, I just, I feel like the idea of a.
Speaker A
00:25:13
Of a workplace that is cognizant of the, the trauma and distress of their workforce, of the community they serve, of their customers, I feel like that's been around for a long time.
Speaker A
00:25:25
And, you know, I often think back to this report that the US military wrote in the 1980s in the aftermath of an air disaster that killed 248 members of the 101st Airborne Division.
Speaker A
00:25:37
There was.
Speaker A
00:25:38
This was December 1985, and the military did this big investigation and report on how that trauma affected mission readiness and unit cohesion.
Speaker A
00:25:49
Like people's ability to do their job, did they come together?
Speaker A
00:25:52
Did they fall apart?
Speaker A
00:25:53
And they said at the time that it was leadership.
Speaker A
00:25:56
They called it grief leadership.
Speaker A
00:25:58
You know, it was leadership that made the biggest difference on those factors.
Speaker A
00:26:02
Like, were people able to acknowledge what people were going through?
Speaker A
00:26:07
Were they able to provide tangible support to the people who were grieving?
Speaker A
00:26:11
Were they able to model healthy responses to grief themselves?
Speaker A
00:26:14
And, you know, those are still the concepts that I'm teaching today, you know, here in the 2020s, those same types of ideas, like, are people feeling acknowledged?
Speaker A
00:26:24
Are they getting help when they need it?
Speaker A
00:26:26
And, you know, the word trauma is one that sometimes people shy away from because they think trauma, like you have to have been, you know, either it's associated with sexual assault or combat.
Speaker A
00:26:38
You know, it's like where the word trauma leans on.
Speaker A
00:26:42
And I don't care what language people use for it.
Speaker A
00:26:44
My main concern is, are people acknowledging that there are people in their workforce who are going through a hard time, and are we showing up for them in the world ways that they need to?
Speaker A
00:26:55
And I do see that that is happening more and more, in part because people are recognizing, you kind of can't, you can't have a workplace now without acknowledging that, without seeing it.
Speaker A
00:27:06
I mean, it's always been there.
Speaker A
00:27:07
Like, we've always worked with people who are dealing with addiction, domestic violence, with grief and loss.
Speaker A
00:27:13
All of those things have always been in the workplace.
Speaker A
00:27:15
But I think what's changed is now our, our willingness to discuss it and frankly, our need to discuss it.
Speaker A
00:27:22
And so what I'm trying to help people do is figure out ways to have those conversations that are effective and helpful that also recognize boundaries and take care of ourselves as we're doing it.
Speaker B
00:27:38
I've had many conversations with leaders, both clients of mine and also in the workplace itself.
Speaker B
00:27:43
And sometimes it's, it's more rare than, than not, but sometimes you'll get a leader that's like, you know, I don't want to be a therapist.
Speaker B
00:27:50
I don't want to be a psychologist.
Speaker B
00:27:51
Like, it's not my role.
Speaker B
00:27:52
My role is to get performance out of the employee and to do these okrs and to get us to this, this goal.
Speaker B
00:27:58
I guess the question I have here is, you know, as you're working as a consultant and an educator and an author, you know, what are some of the challenges that you see that organizations face or individual leaders face in terms of becoming more trauma aware or trauma informed and empathetic in the workplace?
Speaker A
00:28:13
Yeah, I mean, I've certainly heard that before.
Speaker A
00:28:16
And I mean, I don't want you to be your colleagues or your employees therapist.
Speaker A
00:28:20
Like, we don't have the skills for that.
Speaker A
00:28:21
That's not appropriate for the workplace.
Speaker A
00:28:24
To me, I really see this as it's kind of the emt, mental health emt, like you're the one on the scene, you see the problem, you provide some immediate support, you get them off to the experts, you're not there to, to kind of talk through their childhood traumas or anything like that.
Speaker A
00:28:40
Remember, it all comes back to, is there something that is affecting their ability to perform?
Speaker A
00:28:46
And then let's get them the help that they need.
Speaker A
00:28:49
And then in terms of like, how to do it, you know, I do agree that there are folks who, who feel like, gosh, I don't know if I'm going to do this effectively.
Speaker A
00:28:58
I'm afraid I'm going to mess it up.
Speaker A
00:29:01
And, and I actually like, I love those folks.
Speaker A
00:29:05
To me, those are some of the best people to work with.
Speaker A
00:29:08
Because what I hear under that is I want to get better at it.
Speaker A
00:29:14
And really, it's just, if you can just kind of work on listening and acknowledging what they've been through, just curb your impulse to fix it.
Speaker A
00:29:24
Just say, that sounds really hard.
Speaker A
00:29:26
How can I help?
Speaker A
00:29:27
Honestly, you have done so, so much.
Speaker A
00:29:30
And in terms of the impact on your workforce, like the trust that you're building, people's ability to get help when they need it, it's going to have a tremendous impact.
Speaker A
00:29:40
So, you know, I know that a lot of people feel like, gosh, this isn't my job as a supervisor, but I mean, what their research shows there was this fascinating study that Harvard Business School did where they asked people, do you feel it is the manager's job to be concerned with their employees mental health health.
Speaker A
00:29:57
And the majority of managers said, no, that's not my job, obviously, like I have another job.
Speaker A
00:30:02
And the majority of the employees said, absolutely, that is central to their role.
Speaker A
00:30:06
So whether you think it is your job or not, your employees think it's your job and they're expecting it of you.
Speaker A
00:30:12
So it's worthwhile to spend a little time and effort to get comfortable with it because it's going to make a difference and certainly they're expecting it of you.
Speaker B
00:30:22
Yeah.
Speaker B
00:30:22
And I've read many different reports that say, like, leaders and managers have the most outsized impact on the well being of an employee within a workplace and potentially also their mental health.
Speaker B
00:30:32
So to your point, you know, even if this isn't something that is like, oh, this isn't in the remit of my job, this is definitely something that's a phenomenon within the workplace and is something that needs to be addressed.
Speaker A
00:30:42
Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker B
00:30:44
So Catherine, I'm curious, you know, if you were to kind of boil everything down and if there's like one core message you wanted to make sure people take away from the work that you're doing and from the book, what would that be?
Speaker A
00:30:56
You know, I think it's essential for all of us to recognize that we are.
Speaker A
00:31:00
Our job is to work with humans.
Speaker A
00:31:02
Even if you're in it, you know, your job is the humans.
Speaker A
00:31:06
And so we have to recognize that humans are going to have human experiences sometimes they're going to have harder times, harder days, harder months, months, harder years.
Speaker A
00:31:15
And if we can figure out ways to help people thrive through those times, we're going to have a much more successful organization, a happier, healthier workforce.
Speaker A
00:31:27
And frankly, it's better for us too.
Speaker A
00:31:29
We'll feel stronger, happier, healthier ourselves.
Speaker B
00:31:32
That's beautiful.
Speaker B
00:31:34
So I've been asking this of all of the folks that I've been interviewing for the People Summit, and I'm curious your answer on this as well.
Speaker B
00:31:40
What brings you hope for the future?
Speaker A
00:31:42
Gosh, so much.
Speaker A
00:31:44
I mean, I will say it's been incredible, just such a privilege for me to work with these leaders around the world who are really thoughtful, caring and committed to trying to figure out how to build organizations that are more compassionate, more empathetic, recognizing that they still have to be effective.
Speaker A
00:32:06
You know, we still have missions, we have numbers.
Speaker A
00:32:08
All of those, the OKRs, all those things have to be met.
Speaker A
00:32:11
But within that, we can build organizations that are human centered, that are trauma informed, where the workforce feels acknowledged, seen, heard, and where they truly can thrive.
Speaker A
00:32:22
It is such a privilege for me.
Speaker A
00:32:24
I've been so grateful to see the ways that the people are moving the world in recent years.
Speaker A
00:32:31
Years.
Speaker B
00:32:31
Yeah, likewise.
Speaker B
00:32:33
Likewise.
Speaker B
00:32:33
Well, Catherine, thank you so much for the work that you're doing in the world.
Speaker B
00:32:36
It's so important.
Speaker B
00:32:37
If folks would like to learn more about you or follow you online, what are good places we could point people to?
