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Welcome to Calling Operator, a podcast dialing into the stories of startup operators. Tune in as they share their incredible and often challenging journeys of building and scaling startups. Operator.
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Hey, everyone, it's Laura here. How is it December 2024? Before we dive into the episode today, I just wanted to share that Calling Operator is taking a summer break.
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11 years ago, I swapped the Northern Hemisphere, originally hailing from the UK, and those cold, cozy Christmases for life in the Southern Hemisphere.
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And while it still feels so, so strange to celebrate Christmas and barbecues instead of roast dinners, something that us Brits do so well, I've come to love this time of year.
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It's really the perfect season to pause, reflect, and recharge, and for me, it's all about rest, road trips, adventures, and spending time with friends who've become family.
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This episode is our final episode of 2024, and we'll be back in late January with more stories from startup operators, company builders, and the wearers of many hats in tech.
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This year has been such a big one, not just for me personally, but also for the amazing operators I've had the joy of interviewing. To everyone that's tuned in every fortnight, thank you so much.
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I've got some big plans for Calling Operator in 2025, so if you haven't already, hit follow wherever you're listening. That way you'll be first to know when we're back.
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In the meantime, wishing you and your loved ones a wholesome holiday season. Have a blast and enjoy today's episode. Operator. Connecting with Emma Seymour, chief financial officer at Deputy.
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[static] Emma, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Laura. Great to be here. Let's start from the very beginning. Where did you grow up, and what's your origin story?
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I would love to share that I have a wonderful, exciting origin story as so many of my friends in the tech industry do, but I feel like mine's quite vanilla. I grew up in and around Sydney.
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I have two older brothers who I'm very close with, and to this day are just intent on keeping me humble and grounded. I grew up with two very hardworking parents, incredibly strong work ethic.
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Otherwise, a fairly vanilla suburban sort of upbringing in and around Sydney. Were there any people that shaped who you are today? I'm sure I've been shaped by a number of people throughout my life.
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I do think my parents instilled in us very early on a sense of work ethic, a sense of setting goals, a sense of discipline, and when you start something, you finish it.
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So I do think those sorts of traits were instilled in us very, very young before we even questioned it.
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We all had part-time jobs early on, and we were all setting goals, and we all understood the benefits of saving a- and all these kinds of things.
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I do think that probably shaped a lot of how I think and how I operated at an early age and took me into adulthood where I've continued to be a planner and a goal setter and always looking to move forward and to progress and to learn.
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So I would credit them with a lot of it.
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I would say early in my career, I was thrown in the deep end a number of times, and I was exposed to some incredible mentors, particularly women who had come up through some incredible times, and I learnt so much just through observation, just by being in their presence and seeing how they would show up to meetings and how they would impact and how they would influence.
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I was exposed to a few very credible leaders early on, and it just gave me an example of what great might look like and probably gave me that exposure when I didn't have it in other parts of my life or career.
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But it, it set an example for me that was very impactful and made a very strong impression, and I always took that forward. I was always happy just to be around it to absorb it and, and try and emulate. I love that.
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I think as a young person, it's just so great to have those mentors around you and see what good looks like. Was finance always the goal? I'd love to tell you that it was, but no.
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If I think back to when I was really young, like still at school, I think it was almost as far left of that as you can get. I was interested in music and art, and at one point I thought I wanted to be a chef.
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I was always highly analytical- [laughs]... and I was always very interested in business, but I think when I was very young, I didn't really know what that meant or, or where to take it.
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It was actually as I was leaving school that I got enough work experience to realize that I absolutely don't want to be a chef and that wasn't for me, but I was just speaking to whatever creative side I had in me.
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I found my way into finance almost by default and then fell in love with it. I guess it energized me, you know?
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There were parts of me that were drawn to it, and it drew more and more of my strengths out, and I learnt how to amplify them and to fold them into my role.
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And then eventually, when I moved from public practice into a commercial role, I got to do that again, you know, and really just amplify the parts of the job that I loved and that I was passionate about and that energized me, and I found my way through just one step at a time.
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I had a direction, but I didn't really have the answers early on. It just evolved over time. What do you do outside of work that fuels that creativity? My work's very creative.
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People talk about looking for your passion and your purpose, and I always say, "What are you drawn to?" If you wanna know what your passion is, you can usually find it just by what are you engaged by?
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If you're someone that's just losing yourself in the work that you're doing and, you know, hours after hours are passing by, you're engaged, you're interested.
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You know when it doesn't fit because that engagement is actually stress. It's a negative feeling, not a good feeling, you know? So I think there's a lot of creativity that I still get to play with in my role.
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It's highly strategic, and it's always problem-solving, and it's people, so there's a lot of context and color and variety in it that's super engaging.
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Outside of work, I still love cooking, but I have to have downtime for cooking. I don't like rush cooking. I don't like Monday to Friday have to make dinner.
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But I like on the weekend the house is clean, visitors are coming over, and I can take my time with it.
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I've actually just recently welcomed my first baby, so I have a little girl who's about eight months old, and so all hobbies are taking a backseat right now to just spending every minute I can with her. Oh, congrats.
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So are you on mat leave at the moment? No. I was on mat leave earlier this year. Mm-hmm. I returned to Deputy in August, so I've, I've been back in seat for a few months now. Oh, congratulations.
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That's such great news Thank you very much You moved from public practice into the tech industry as JobAdder's CFO. At that time, you were growing a team from around 50 to 200 globally.
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What was that experience like, and how did it prepare you for Deputy? JobAdder was a wonderful experience for me. I was exposed to so much.
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I joined the company with the founders, who were still leading the business, and they were just incredibly innovative and fast-paced and really customer-focused and very, very product led.
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I was with them as SEEK acquired the business, and so through that partnership I was exposed to incredible talent at SEEK, and I worked with some wonderful people.
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And again, was shown examples of what things look like when they're done well, and some really, really brilliant connections were made.
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And then in seeing the company through that transition, I was there when the new CEO took the reins and then built out a leadership team from there, and I was part of that journey.
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So I went through a number of big transitions and changes, and everything that comes with that, they're not small changes. It imposes on you to be better and to take on more. I guess I grew a lot at JobAdder.
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I think I learned a lot, and I was so fortunate to be in a position that I could take on so much, and the experiences that, you know, had I not have done that, maybe I wouldn't have been ready.
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That's actually one reflection I do have throughout my career again and again, where there's been so many times over where I've always been the one that was just throw the ball to me.
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I, I was always the one that was ready to put my hand up, and I'd love to take on the challenge and I'd love to do the work even if no one else wants to.
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That mindset has just really prepared me well for where I am today. There's been so many times over my career that I can point to where people have actually discouraged me from doing that. "Why are you doing that?
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It's someone else's job," and, "It's too much, Emma." And the truth is, if I hadn't have done it, I wouldn't have actually been ready for the next opportunity.
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It was by throwing myself in the deep end and taking on some of the hardest things I've ever done, that when the next opportunity actually came about, I was ready.
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Certainly, JobAdder was incredible learning for me and an experience, very valuable, but it's also just been a consistent thing that I always try to share with people as well, to ask for the ball.
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A theme I'm hearing there from JobAdder is there's lots of transition and change. Did you learn some things that you still carry with you today?
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It's a cliche to say that change is the only constant, but I guess being able to adapt was the most valuable lesson, and I think that has been very valuable throughout the last couple of years.
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Being able to adapt in an ever-changing environment, whether it's external or internal, directly correlates to your success and, and the impact you're able to have.
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Even just looking at the last couple of years and everything that's been changing around us, the one thing that we've learnt through COVID and everything that's followed is that there's a lot of just unpredictability [laughs] in the world at the moment.
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So I guess being able to anticipate a little bit and to consider different scenarios and how things plan out and be very nimble and, and agile and being able to adapt and, and just forever keep growing and yeah, that would probably be the key lesson to embrace, is that it is not without stress, and it is not easy, but embrace it.
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Just adapt. It's hard to operate in those scenarios, but it is the reality of tech and startups. Yes. Yeah, and it's not for everybody- [laughs]... but a few of us absolutely love it and thrive on it. 100%.
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From JobAdder, you then became the youngest CFO of an Australian tech unicorn. What was the turning point when you realized, "I'm ready for this next challenge," even if there was moments of doubt?
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There wasn't a defined turning point.
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The way that I think about it, and again it's a consistent thing, is that I've always felt that there's a number of opportunities that are gonna cross our paths, you know, throughout our careers, and if you've done the work and you've invested in yourself and you're always d- doing your best to progress and to be better and to take on more, when those opportunities cross your path, you'll be ready to take them or you won't.
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I'm a big believer in just constantly investing in self and upskilling and trying to round myself out commercially and to take on more so that when opportunities come up, I'm ready and I can seize them.
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You can't phone it in. You can do it or you can't. And in the same light, the way that I think about it is not so much am I ready or not and limiting the thinking. It's more I'm gonna learn where I'm at, you know?
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I'm only gonna know what my capacity is and what my ability is and what my cap is today by putting myself at risk of something that's a little bit scary and outside my comfort zone.
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I don't think I ever thought about it in terms of, "Well, here's all the things that I have to be able to do, and am I ready and am I prepared?"
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I think it was opportunity's here, and you take a step forward, and I'm going to learn where I'm at and where I still need to progress and develop and, and I'll build on it from there. And that's always served me well.
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I think most people are still working it out, you know? I think very few people have all the answers, and no one business is the same, and no one business has all the same challenges.
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It's the problem-solving mindset and bringing some positive energy to it that just- Mm-hmm... helps unblock things. The advice that I always like to share is to take the opportunity before you think you're ready for it.
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I think that's something that's probably happened naturally throughout my career, where you just jump in the deep end and grab the opportunity.
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I think a lot of people can focus on what's the list of things that I have to tick off before I'm ready, and you're never gonna be ready. Just jump in. How big was your team when you joined Deputy?
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I think roughly it was around 40, 50 people across my teams. I had half a dozen teams or so, but I'd say it was roughly 50 people in total.
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It's moved a little bit in terms of different scopes and teams that I've taken on or have moved to other leaders and such, but it's usually been between 50 to 70 people.
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Deputy is bigger than JobAdder, so it was certainly a step up. A lot of similar themes and challenges, a lot of shared experiences, which were great, but larger in scale.
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Did you experience additional pressure to prove yourself as a female CFO? Not that I was aware of, no. No.
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I'd love to hear something valuable and insightful and inspiring there, but look, have I had comments throughout my career? Yes. Have I probably been underestimated at times? Yes.
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I don't think you have to take that pressure on, though. I don't think you have to take it on, and I don't know that it serves you well to internalize that and then bring that into the room.
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I think knowing what you have to do and what your job is and where do you need to perform and where you need to have impact, that should be the focus.
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And if you're entering a room or a meeting where that perception is there, then the way to win over the crowd is to actually deliver, you know, and to prove it wrong.
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So I have been very fortunate in that, no, I, I haven't felt that. I've felt tremendously supported coming into, to Deputy specifically, and I know I'm answering that question reflecting on my career.
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But Deputy specifically, I, I felt tremendous support. Tremendous support from our leaders, from our board, from our new CEO, Silvia Martincovic, who joined in 2023.
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Incredible people to be surrounded by, and it's evident in Deputy's culture from top to bottom right throughout. So I've been very fortunate in that regard. And that's awesome.
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We often hear of the horror stories of tech and startup, so it's so nice to hear that you've had this really positive and fruitful- Yeah... experience. Let's dive deeper into your work at Deputy.
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You've driven the company to profitability and unicorn status, which is no small feat. What have been the biggest challenges you face as a leader? It's always a good story to look back on, you know?
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I like that you're teasing that out. A lot of people sort of celebrate the wins and the highlights, and it, it is a lot of work that goes into it. When I joined Deputy, it was a very interesting time.
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We were going through a, a transition of CEO and the markets had changed, and we did have to optimize for runway and for profitability over just burning cash and acquisition. We did things really well.
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We acted early, and we were very analytical and very data-driven around what was actually serving us and what was giving us a strong ROI and, and where should we be investing across the business.
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And we were able to weather a pretty difficult storm that a lot of our industry peers were hurt by, and we saw this happening with, you know, multiple risks and layoffs and things like that.
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So I think it's a great story when you look back on it and, hey, we were able to do that and still maintain a level of growth and still reach unicorn status and move into profitability.
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It, it wasn't easy, but it was so satisfying because it was the right thing for the business at the right time, and we acted at the right time.
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It's a huge testament to Deputy's team as well because we have this workforce of just incredible commercial, intelligent people that all wear the company hat first.
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I think that was a big part in that success story was that we had such wonderful engagement with our team, and we communicated with them, and we were transparent with them so that they could all rally and, and help us solve the problem.
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That's not mine to take credit for alone. That was an effort from all of Deputy, and they should all be very proud of it.
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In doing that and in welcoming, you know, new leadership into the company and, and setting us up for the next chapter and strengthening our strategy, and then when we went out to market from a true position of strength financially, we secured two very key strategic investors, which have, have been shared publicly now, Express Pros and Zero, which are future unlocks and potential for us in terms of distribution, which will help us get Deputy into the hands of, of thousands, uh, of more businesses worldwide.
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I think in terms of the milestones that helped us got there, those two key strategics were, were a big unlock for us and will continue to be immensely valuable going forward, and the work that we'd done the year prior with the team was really important to enable that.
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And in addition to that, there's no silver bullets. It's doing a lot of things well. It's doing a lot of little things really well.
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And so having a team that's focused on the right goals and priorities and maintaining pace and a level of passion and an energy around what they're doing and the impact that they're having is a huge credit to all of our Deputies.
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Is there a really tactical thing that you did during that time that worked for you? Anything tactical that we did, probably the rebalancing of the financial trajectory was very tactical.
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We'd come out of a time where I'm sure you remember at the end of 2021, and cash was cheap, and valuations were huge, and everyone was raising, and it was all just growth at all costs.
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Was a very tactical exercise to rebalance what was important and what was going to really strengthen our position and ensure our future through what was anticipated to be a pretty difficult time.
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We did that really well, but that was highly tactical in nature. To be able to rebalance things and to optimize for runway, it was a few months' worth of work to do it well.
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And on that thread with your strategic investors, what insights do you have from that fundraising experience as an operator?
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One of the most insightful things was as, as a business scales, they may take on different levels of capital and from different flavors of investor, if you like, throughout the years. The business needs evolve.
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Again, we're so fortunate. We have wonderful investors at Deputy, and we have a wonderful board, and we have so much support and such great advisors i- in that capacity.
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I think the needs evolve over time, where it might be very different to when you're earlier stage and needing maybe more operating help or guidance or, or advisors there, versus, you know, where we found ourselves late last year, was that what we were looking for was...
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Like I said, we were profitable. It wasn't like we needed cash. We didn't need someone to write us a check. We wanted partners to join us that were going to really unlock future value, and were kindred spirits- Mm-hmm...
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in nature, you know? Folks that we could partner with and saw the world the same as we did and were passionate about the impact and could actually help us drive value for both parties.
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I guess that was a key insight as well, is that when people think about raising capital and it's not just about the check, it's about who are you actually taking on and being on this journey with and who's gonna partner with you in the right way at the right point in time for how the business is operating.
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What I'm hearing from you is distribution was one of your core pillars there.
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So for anyone else on the journey, it's what future, what partnership do you want, whether it's go-to-market, whether it's getting into the US or a new market. Yeah, absolutely.
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What's the company's strategy and where is it constrained and where can it be helped and, and what are the unlocks and, and what will be the, the biggest driver of value?
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And being very protective of, of who you let in, you know?
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Because if you're passionate about what you're doing and you believe in it and it's sacred, then you, you should be very selective about who gets through the front door.
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And what did you enjoy most about that process, the fundraising process? I mean, I love all things scaleup. I love the pace. I love the challenge. It was such an intense time.
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I shared that I welcomed my little girl eight months ago, so I was still pregnant during that time, and I was traveling, and we were closing deals, and I loved it. I loved it. We met such brilliant people.
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I'm so proud of how our team showed up during those transactions. I'm so grateful for the partners that we took on.
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I couldn't ask for more i- in terms of what an incredible fit they are for us and how excited we are to do business with them. But just that vibe, just that pace, I thrive in that environment.
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I love it, and I love the camaraderie. I love the satisfaction of when there is a really big challenge in front of us, and we're just shoulder to shoulder and truly operating as a team.
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I'm very proud of the integrity and the resilience and the tenacity of, of our team. Congratulations. What's that gear change going from startup to scaleup 'cause you really thrive in this scaleup environment?
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I don't know, to be honest. It's probably a little bit individual because I think I'd have the same gear no matter what environment you put me in. Yeah. You know what I mean?
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You would expect startup to be a little bit scrappier and a little bit more creative and, and scaleup to, okay, they're starting to get some process in place, and the business might be maturing, and you'd expect the culture and the process and things like that to change and the structure of it.
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I think, honestly, it probably comes down to the individual in that whatever environment you put them in, they're going to be them.
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I suspect that, you know, myself and my colleagues and my team probably are gonna operate at the same pace no matter what, uh, room you put them in.
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I apologize if this is already covered in your answers, but just for clarity, what were some of those key milestones on the path of becoming a unicorn from an operational perspective?
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From an operational perspective, it's more of an evolution. As the business is growing, you just need to, I suppose, strengthen a- and mature a lot of the operations.
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So for us, Deputy grew up in Australia and has largely been product led, and so there's that section of the business that is still product led.
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But then as we've scaled up, we've moved further and further up market, so there's the maturity of our, our GTM motions and outbound and getting more creative and winning bigger deals and, and that evolves in terms of sales strategy and positioning and marketing strategy, and everything flows from that.
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From my vantage point within the business, it's probably a lot more rigor around data and analytics and what are we tracking and how we're pacing toward our goals, and really keeping a finger on the pulse on what's going right and what's not going right, and being able to pivot early and adjust.
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I think probably more so when you start up, you're wearing probably a lot more hats, and everybody leans in, and it...
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there's probably a lot more generalized and less expertise, if I was to summarize it in a way operationally.
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When I think of our earlier startup, it's probably more one person could be juggling five or six things and loves it, and it's scrappy, and you just have to make it work.
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And I think as you scale, you probably are leaning more on swim lanes, structure, reporting, process, cadences, accountability, bringing the right expertise, the right caliber of leadership so that it just gets more focused and more precise.
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You know, every spoke on the wheel has to come together. A- and it's still a team, but it's just probably more focused operationally and by ring it.
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Do you think there's still room for generalists in a scaleup environment? I think any business that is still innovating and is still product led, then of course, there's still a lot of experimenting and testing.
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I think the balance just starts to recalibrate, you know? You touched on your leadership team, which you've actually got an 80% female mix in your leadership team, which is pretty unique.
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I actually can't think of another company that does have that. What impact do you see from your vantage point having such a diverse team at the top? We're very passionate about having a diverse leadership team.
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One of the biggest drivers for us is that the customers we serve are incredibly diverse. We need that representation at the leadership level because it starts with that.
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It starts with empathy for our customers and understanding our customers.
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We are stronger as a business for having a leadership team that brings all of those perspectives and can empathize and relate and help steer, you know? So I think that's the impact that we see. It touches everything.
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It's a trickier thing to try and tangibly say the precise impact and how do you measure it. It involves everything. We're just better for having that representation and for setting that example.
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There's the whole, "If I can see it, I can be it," so it's also a culture that is fostering and, and rolls throughout the business.
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I think one of the, the elements that we're most passionate about is that we have to have a team that represents the customers. Do you have any takeaways that helped you get to that 80% mix? Did you have any criteria?
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What did your playbook look like to get to that mix?
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I think there's certainly an, an element of it that is deliberate, but I think the most important thing is there is such incredible talent out there from all walks of life.
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You're limiting the potential of the team and the success of the team if we're too constrained.
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We have to be open and all-inclusive of making sure that we're creating opportunities for diverse leadership, and so I think that has just always been forefront.
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We want the best talent in the best seats and the best people doing the job, and I think that has always been our MO, but there's always been a lens and a deliberate move toward, well, you know, let's make sure that we're creating these opportunities for diversity as well.
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So obviously you own the finance function and influence the financials across the business, but how do you get the teams across the company to engage in those finances and the financial goals and almost, like, foster financial literacy across those teams, regardless of their level?
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Great question.
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We use a couple of frameworks, but it, it starts with alignment around what is the strategy and what are the big strategic initiatives that we need to be delivering on in order to move that forward and, and to execute.
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And so we start with what are our big rocks, you know? I- in any given year, it's like, okay, what are the things that we have to get done this year?
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And then that rolls down into OKRs and goals for the team, and everybody has to measure it, and there are clearly defined objectives and results that are measured and, and all of the appropriate metrics by segment and by geo and by team.
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So how do we then help with financial literacy and people understanding it? We speak to our team. It's really that simple.
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We speak about this at a company level- And then we speak about it at a director level where the leaders in the business are across it.
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And then we're also equipping and, and enabling our directors and our managers to carry the water and to make sure that this is discussed in their team meetings and their team setting.
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And then I play a part as well in when I'm speaking to the company, I try to explain the why and I try to take the complex and make it simple, and a little bit of a 101 on, on some of these things, you know, why they matter and what the impact is and what does it mean.
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I don't think there's an easy way to do it where we can just have everybody at parity at any given moment.
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People do come from different backgrounds and experience, and some people are already brilliant and highly literate and totally equipped, and others are joining a SaaS business for the first time, and it's an education for them.
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We start with some consistency and leadership around what's important, why is it important, what should be watching, and how do we measure it.
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And then we have cadences where it's our managers and leaders are playing that forward. We have cadences where we're talking about things in WBRs and QBRs and team lookbacks as well.
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And it's just through talking about it that people are, are educated over time. We have a very open culture where I would trust that anyone would ask questions or reach out to me or, or my team or whomever is needed.
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So what's one thing from your time at Deputy that you're most proud of? I think the story that I shared with you in just navigating so much change over the last couple of years is a point of pride.
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I was proud to join Deputy regardless.
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I'm loving seeing some of our tech companies in Australia just start to shine on a global stage, and I was a fan of Deputy when I was at JobAdder, so I was already proud to be joining this incredible company, and it has been an absolute privilege.
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I'm still having a, a lot of fun.
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But I think we navigated through such an interesting couple of years where it was the shift in the macro environment and there was a big move toward, you know, optimizing for runway, and then there was a big transition with welcoming in our new CEO, and then we went and secured these two big strategic investors that had just unlocked so much potential for us.
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And to be able to stabilize our team, you know, hundreds of deputies through all of that, and see that they're still engaged and passionate and clear on what they're doing and why they're doing it.
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I think just that journey over the last couple of years, it's been a lot of work, but it's been so satisfying.
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And now we've really just shored up our position and we're operating from such a strong position that now we're just in execution mode.
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We know what we need to do and it's heads down, and that fills us with pride every day just in seeing us move things forward. I can feel the pride jumping out of the screen.
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You've really done the hard work, and to then be in execution mode is really exciting.
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Do you have any advice for folks working in head of roles where there's already so much change happening and then acquisitions or new leadership creates so much uncertainty and change as to the future of the company, et cetera?
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What would be your advice or any tactics to sit in the messiness for a while and just see how that unfolds? I think my advice would be if you're signing up to a scale-up, then there's going to be an element of change.
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It is going to be fast-paced, it is going to be uncomfortable, and you shouldn't expect things to stay the same.
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Whether it's changes in leadership, whether it's acquisitions, whether it's just scope and remit of the function you're in and watching it evolve.
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If the company is growing, then every year essentially it's gonna feel like a different company.
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And so trying to, I guess, get comfortable with the discomfort and just embracing it and knowing that it's normal and being open, and also realizing that in those moments and whenever there's change, there's also opportunities, and it's an opportunity for these people to put up their hand and make themself known, try and take on more and try and shine, and they should lean into that.
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Y- y- you can look at anything glass half full, glass half empty, but if you're in a scaling business, it's always gonna be evolving.
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And looking for the opportunities in that and looking for how you're best gonna have an impact.
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The one common thing is that if everybody's on the same team, you want the company and the customers and all stakeholders to win.
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So I, I'd be looking at whatever vantage point these people are in and whatever their role is, how are you gonna have the biggest impact? How will you contribute? And take the opportunity to make yourself known.
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What balls are you gonna catch? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I love that. So anything to add on Deputy before we move on to more of you as an operator? We've covered a lot of ground. I think just stay tuned.
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I say that we're in execution mode because we're always in execution mode, by the way, but I think we're just heads down now, and 2025 is gonna be a very exciting one. So just stay tuned.
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We'll be able to share more and more as appropriate. Well, all the best for that journey.
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Zooming out to more of you just as an operator, what would you say your most valuable skills or genius zones are that distinguish you? I don't think I've ever had it phrased as a genius zone, but I like the context.
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I've been told my most valuable skills are probably also for the seat in which I'm sitting, is around communication.
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I have a capacity to take something that's quite complex and simplify it, and I know regardless of who I'm speaking to, if it's very senior, if it's very junior, I can sort of craft a narrative in a way that I know it's gonna hit people at different levels and at different points as it needs to.
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I think that's been a really important skill, and I hope becoming more and more of a skill required to my role. It doesn't matter how brilliant you are or how much you know.
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If you can't communicate, if you can't influence, if you can't, you know, sell even, it's not gonna be as impactful. That's been an advantage in just being able to have an impact and be effective.
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And I think whatever leadership role you're sitting in, being able to bring the whole company along for your function- Yeah... is incredibly important. Storytelling. That's right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It is.
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So we're at the point that we're gonna look ahead. So looking at the big picture world out there, what emerging trends do you see shaping the future roles of tech operators, and how can we best prepare now?
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I wish I had a crystal ball because it's all changing rapidly. The obvious one is what role is AI gonna play?
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Whether it is making things more efficient, whether it's actually taking on roles that are, uh, uh, traditionally done by people, we'll see.
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I think we need to be across that and everybody just needs to be keeping an ear to the ground on what is going to be disrupt and how roles will evolve within our own functions, of course, but also for our customers and so on.
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But it's moving so, so quickly that it's hard to anticipate. But we should expect, I, I guess, a level of automation, of redundancy in jobs, but also in how can it be leveraged to make things more efficient.
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I would just say staying, you know, full on is the best play. From a finance function, just out of curiosity, how are you using AI today? It's in a couple of things that we use. I, I don't leverage it in a massive way.
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We certainly have things that are probably more mundane and just a little bit more administrative heavy where it's okay to leverage, and it's sort of embedded in a couple of products.
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But it's something that, as a company, we're very interested in.
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It's probably more topical for me at the moment in terms of how can we be using it in our product, or how is it gonna disrupt our customers, and things like that.
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Deputy dedicates a lot of time to it in terms of AI hackathons and how do we innovate from that perspective. Oh, nice. Internally hackathons? Correct. Yes. Yeah. We have one coming up in December.
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It's how do we harness all of the incredible brainpower and wonderful ideas and innovation that's already sitting out there in our team, and- Carving out space for that to bring it to life.
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I'm hearing this theme come up more and more, and it's just genius. Sounds simple, but actually just to get that diversity of thought. You mentioned you've got your new daughter. What's her name, by the way? Madison.
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Hi, Madison. When you're older, you'll be listening to this. Yes. What's on the cards for you in the future, both personally and professionally? I think professionally, I've always just had a direction.
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Li- like I said, I've, I've always wanted to just invest in self, always get better, always trying to learn, always trying to stretch myself. Rounding myself out commercially, I think is really important. I love tech.
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I love the space that I'm in. I wanna get better as a leader. I wanna continue to evolve.
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I'm very passionate about what we're doing at Deputy, and as the company grows and as the company scales, then that just creates more and more opportunity for all of us to grow and to take on new challenges, and it will impose and demand more of us to be better.
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So that's my focus at the moment. It's just stretching in my capacity that makes sense and being what Deputy needs as well as it grows, and I'm very committed to seeing through what we've started.
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And personally, I think I summed it up. It's a whole new chapter.
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It's a whole new adventure of having a little one and being new to being a first-time mom and everything that comes with that, and just finding the balance and, you know, the moments that are special and...
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It's been really wonderful. It is also very, very hard, as I'm sure m- many people relate to. But yeah, really, really wonderful.
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And from what I hear, this is a very, very special age, so on the personal front, I'm just dedicated to being the best mom I can be to, to little Madison. How is the sleep going? Wonderful.
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If I could share anything, that would be my biggest word of advice. I do have a big job, and I have to have the balance, and I have to be able to rest in order to do this well.
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When I was on maternity leave, Madison was not a great sleeper in the first couple of months, and I was so acutely aware of, I'm sure I'm gonna be able to work this out, but I think I'm gonna just grind through it, and I don't want to.
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I wanna be present and enjoy this because these moments are fleeting.
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And so we actually had a consultation with a sleep consultant, and it was one hour of my time, and within three days, this beautiful little baby was just sleeping soundly through the night, and Mom and Dad have had, [laughs]
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have had restful night's sleep ever since. So if anybody listening is in that boat, don't hesitate. It'll be the best thing that you've ever done. Need to be able to rest. High ROI investment. Very much so. Very much so.
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That makes me so happy for you. Mm-hmm.
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In terms of s- frameworks or north stars or industry mentors who have been your north stars on your journey, do you have anything to share to help folks listening either be more commercially rounded or in areas that have leapfrogged your growth?
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I've leaned heavily on frameworks that prioritize agility and scalability. You heard me speak about OKRs earlier on. Like, something like that is a framework that we, we just can't operate without it.
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That's really important in terms of how do you align a, a company and a cross-functional group of people around the right goals to make sure that when we are moving at pace, and there's hundreds of people, that we're all moving in the right direction, and we're all moving the right things forward.
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That has been a key one for me.
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I think another, uh, approach that's always been a, a north star, as you say, is first principles thinking, breaking down the complex, just to navigate that and try to understand the problem and then work out the problem.
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There's very few problems that can't be solved. Sometimes we can overcomplicate things a little bit. I think they've been always very helpful for me. How can I as an operator become more commercially rounded?
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I think you have to take on the opportunities. I would say what is the end goal?
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If you're an operator and you're wanting to get to the CFO spot or to the CEO spot or to the CRO spot, what does it mean to be a commercial leader in those capacities?
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I think gone are the days where CFOs were just looking back on financials and telling you what the business did last year. It is now about how do you anticipate what's coming? How do you help drive growth?
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How do you help really define strategies? Being commercially rounded in that sort of a seat, it might be talking to investors and bankers and understanding the landscape in which you're operating.
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It might be joining customer calls and understanding what's happening in the product and what are the pain points and how do things need to evolve so that we know that we're meeting them where they're going to be and not where they've been historically.
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You know, like how to think more commercially about where the company's going and to move it forward.
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If it's more of a revenue seat or a CEO seat, it might be, uh, and this is true as well for a CFO, but how to actually grow and, and accelerate growth. So is it in those key partnerships that have to happen?
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Is it in distribution unlocks? Is it joining large deals that have to be closed and helping to negotiate?
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I would look to maybe what are the key skills that are going to be needed to have success in the goal, to have success in the role that you aspire to having.
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They may be nuanced, but they all sort of circulate around, around the same themes, and then just exposing yourself to them. Speaking to a mentor or to a leader and saying, "Hey, take me under your wing.
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I'm not strong on this bit. I wanna ride shotgun. I wanna see how it's done well, and then start letting me cut my teeth on a little bit and get some experience with it." There's no way to, to build it without doing it.
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That kind of goes back to your advice earlier about catching those balls that aren't your balls to catch, and reframing your thinking in a meeting that you're delivering your piece in a more commercially rounded way.
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So I may report on what this customer and that revenue actually means for X or X partnership that I'm running. I guess what you're speaking to is tailoring your narrative and the message that you're sharing. Mm-hmm.
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And if you're speaking to commercial leaders, that's a great piece of advice. What are they going to care about, and how do I connect the dots for them? That's a very good muscle to build.
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You can tell that I'm on that journey myself. Everybody is. Everybody is in some respects. Who's another operator in Australia, New Zealand doing incredible things or at the top of their game?
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When I'm asked that question, the person that comes to mind is Melanie [laughs] from Canva.
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I love Mel's story of the knock-backs before the success, and that everybody, you know, again, loves to look at it, what a success story, but just the perseverance and the dedication and the tenacity that she and her team must have had in building such an incredible company.
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And now just seeing them, again, just shine on the world stage is just wonderful. I love the examples of any Australian tech companies that are just really doing a wonderful job globally.
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It's so inspiring, and it's such a wonderful example, and it makes us all better and pulls us all up, you know? That's such an incredible story, and they've had such tremendous success.
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They deserve all the credit and all the celebration. And reminding yourself that they had that journey- Yeah... to get there. Absolutely. It...
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You know, everybody started somewhere, and it was just one step after another, so yeah, incredible. We love to end the podcast, just focus around mental wellness.
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For those of us wanting to become better operators, do you have any advice or a tactic that's helped you along the way to stay more grounded?
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One thing that's helped me a lot is, to be really honest, I probably learnt the hard way earlier on in my career.
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I probably had moments where, oh, I actually am overdoing it, and I'm burning out a little bit, and, you know. I probably pushed the boundaries a little bit early on, which helped me realize what my warning signs were.
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I think it's pretty common that people probably have a time in their career where they've experienced something like that, but the more important thing is to learn from it. I learnt that very early on.
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What are my warning signs? And for me, it was things like, I'm usually quite engaged and quite energetic and can bring a lot of drive to what I'm doing.
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So if I start slowing down and checking out, it's like, okay, I know my energy's running low, or things like that. It's knowing what your warning signs are and not ignoring them. Absolutely rest, you know?
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It's, it- the temptation of, like, everybody wants to shoulder so much. It's not a badge of honor if you burn out, and just to look how many late nights you've had.
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Y- your team and your company needs you at your best, and you can only bring that every day if you actually are taking a break and having a rest. So prioritize that.
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And for me, I've been very fortunate to have an incredible group of people around me, including the leaders within Deputy, my husband, and my family.
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I also have a wonderful group of people that know me well and also just check in, you know? They can see when I'm picking up pace, and they care enough to ask the question.
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So I guess also just having a little bit of community and a bit of a network around you. We can all get drawn in, and it's good to just have a checkpoint. I love that community piece.
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So Emma, thank you so much for your time today. Where can people find you or follow along on your journey? Uh, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn these days. That's probably the, the best place to find me.
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Otherwise, you can always find me at Deputy. I'm always there. And what have you got planned for the Christmas break? Um, a pretty quiet one, I think.
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Staycations are just sounding lovely, so if we have a little bit of time off over Christmas and just relaxing, backyard barbecues, time with the baby, I'll be very happy with that just to recharge ahead of the new year.
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Oh, yes, of course. Yes. First Christmas. Yeah, very special. Very, very special. Enjoy the holidays, and we'll chat soon. Thank you so much, Laura. Appreciate the time. And that's a wrap.
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Today's episode was recorded and edited by me, your host, Laura Nichol, with original music composed by Stephen Shelton. If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a follow, and we'll see you next time.
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Welcome to Calling Operator, a podcast dialing into the stories of startup operators. Tune in as they share their incredible and often challenging journeys of building and scaling startups. Operator.
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Hey, everyone, it's Laura here. How is it December 2024? Before we dive into the episode today, I just wanted to share that Calling Operator is taking a summer break.
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11 years ago, I swapped the Northern Hemisphere, originally hailing from the UK, and those cold, cozy Christmases for life in the Southern Hemisphere.
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And while it still feels so, so strange to celebrate Christmas and barbecues instead of roast dinners, something that us Brits do so well, I've come to love this time of year.
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It's really the perfect season to pause, reflect, and recharge, and for me, it's all about rest, road trips, adventures, and spending time with friends who've become family.
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This episode is our final episode of 2024, and we'll be back in late January with more stories from startup operators, company builders, and the wearers of many hats in tech.
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This year has been such a big one, not just for me personally, but also for the amazing operators I've had the joy of interviewing. To everyone that's tuned in every fortnight, thank you so much.
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I've got some big plans for Calling Operator in 2025, so if you haven't already, hit follow wherever you're listening. That way you'll be first to know when we're back.
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In the meantime, wishing you and your loved ones a wholesome holiday season. Have a blast and enjoy today's episode. Operator. Connecting with Emma Seymour, chief financial officer at Deputy.
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[static] Emma, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Laura. Great to be here. Let's start from the very beginning. Where did you grow up, and what's your origin story?
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I would love to share that I have a wonderful, exciting origin story as so many of my friends in the tech industry do, but I feel like mine's quite vanilla. I grew up in and around Sydney.
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I have two older brothers who I'm very close with, and to this day are just intent on keeping me humble and grounded. I grew up with two very hardworking parents, incredibly strong work ethic.
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Otherwise, a fairly vanilla suburban sort of upbringing in and around Sydney. Were there any people that shaped who you are today? I'm sure I've been shaped by a number of people throughout my life.
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I do think my parents instilled in us very early on a sense of work ethic, a sense of setting goals, a sense of discipline, and when you start something, you finish it.
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So I do think those sorts of traits were instilled in us very, very young before we even questioned it.
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We all had part-time jobs early on, and we were all setting goals, and we all understood the benefits of saving a- and all these kinds of things.
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I do think that probably shaped a lot of how I think and how I operated at an early age and took me into adulthood where I've continued to be a planner and a goal setter and always looking to move forward and to progress and to learn.
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So I would credit them with a lot of it.
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I would say early in my career, I was thrown in the deep end a number of times, and I was exposed to some incredible mentors, particularly women who had come up through some incredible times, and I learnt so much just through observation, just by being in their presence and seeing how they would show up to meetings and how they would impact and how they would influence.
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I was exposed to a few very credible leaders early on, and it just gave me an example of what great might look like and probably gave me that exposure when I didn't have it in other parts of my life or career.
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But it, it set an example for me that was very impactful and made a very strong impression, and I always took that forward. I was always happy just to be around it to absorb it and, and try and emulate. I love that.
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I think as a young person, it's just so great to have those mentors around you and see what good looks like. Was finance always the goal? I'd love to tell you that it was, but no.
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If I think back to when I was really young, like still at school, I think it was almost as far left of that as you can get. I was interested in music and art, and at one point I thought I wanted to be a chef.
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I was always highly analytical- [laughs]... and I was always very interested in business, but I think when I was very young, I didn't really know what that meant or, or where to take it.
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It was actually as I was leaving school that I got enough work experience to realize that I absolutely don't want to be a chef and that wasn't for me, but I was just speaking to whatever creative side I had in me.
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I found my way into finance almost by default and then fell in love with it. I guess it energized me, you know?
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There were parts of me that were drawn to it, and it drew more and more of my strengths out, and I learnt how to amplify them and to fold them into my role.
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And then eventually, when I moved from public practice into a commercial role, I got to do that again, you know, and really just amplify the parts of the job that I loved and that I was passionate about and that energized me, and I found my way through just one step at a time.
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I had a direction, but I didn't really have the answers early on. It just evolved over time. What do you do outside of work that fuels that creativity? My work's very creative.
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People talk about looking for your passion and your purpose, and I always say, "What are you drawn to?" If you wanna know what your passion is, you can usually find it just by what are you engaged by?
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If you're someone that's just losing yourself in the work that you're doing and, you know, hours after hours are passing by, you're engaged, you're interested.
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You know when it doesn't fit because that engagement is actually stress. It's a negative feeling, not a good feeling, you know? So I think there's a lot of creativity that I still get to play with in my role.
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It's highly strategic, and it's always problem-solving, and it's people, so there's a lot of context and color and variety in it that's super engaging.
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Outside of work, I still love cooking, but I have to have downtime for cooking. I don't like rush cooking. I don't like Monday to Friday have to make dinner.
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But I like on the weekend the house is clean, visitors are coming over, and I can take my time with it.
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I've actually just recently welcomed my first baby, so I have a little girl who's about eight months old, and so all hobbies are taking a backseat right now to just spending every minute I can with her. Oh, congrats.
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So are you on mat leave at the moment? No. I was on mat leave earlier this year. Mm-hmm. I returned to Deputy in August, so I've, I've been back in seat for a few months now. Oh, congratulations.
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That's such great news Thank you very much You moved from public practice into the tech industry as JobAdder's CFO. At that time, you were growing a team from around 50 to 200 globally.
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What was that experience like, and how did it prepare you for Deputy? JobAdder was a wonderful experience for me. I was exposed to so much.
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I joined the company with the founders, who were still leading the business, and they were just incredibly innovative and fast-paced and really customer-focused and very, very product led.
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I was with them as SEEK acquired the business, and so through that partnership I was exposed to incredible talent at SEEK, and I worked with some wonderful people.
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And again, was shown examples of what things look like when they're done well, and some really, really brilliant connections were made.
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And then in seeing the company through that transition, I was there when the new CEO took the reins and then built out a leadership team from there, and I was part of that journey.
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So I went through a number of big transitions and changes, and everything that comes with that, they're not small changes. It imposes on you to be better and to take on more. I guess I grew a lot at JobAdder.
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I think I learned a lot, and I was so fortunate to be in a position that I could take on so much, and the experiences that, you know, had I not have done that, maybe I wouldn't have been ready.
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That's actually one reflection I do have throughout my career again and again, where there's been so many times over where I've always been the one that was just throw the ball to me.
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I, I was always the one that was ready to put my hand up, and I'd love to take on the challenge and I'd love to do the work even if no one else wants to.
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That mindset has just really prepared me well for where I am today. There's been so many times over my career that I can point to where people have actually discouraged me from doing that. "Why are you doing that?
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It's someone else's job," and, "It's too much, Emma." And the truth is, if I hadn't have done it, I wouldn't have actually been ready for the next opportunity.
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It was by throwing myself in the deep end and taking on some of the hardest things I've ever done, that when the next opportunity actually came about, I was ready.
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Certainly, JobAdder was incredible learning for me and an experience, very valuable, but it's also just been a consistent thing that I always try to share with people as well, to ask for the ball.
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A theme I'm hearing there from JobAdder is there's lots of transition and change. Did you learn some things that you still carry with you today?
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It's a cliche to say that change is the only constant, but I guess being able to adapt was the most valuable lesson, and I think that has been very valuable throughout the last couple of years.
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Being able to adapt in an ever-changing environment, whether it's external or internal, directly correlates to your success and, and the impact you're able to have.
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Even just looking at the last couple of years and everything that's been changing around us, the one thing that we've learnt through COVID and everything that's followed is that there's a lot of just unpredictability [laughs] in the world at the moment.
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So I guess being able to anticipate a little bit and to consider different scenarios and how things plan out and be very nimble and, and agile and being able to adapt and, and just forever keep growing and yeah, that would probably be the key lesson to embrace, is that it is not without stress, and it is not easy, but embrace it.
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Just adapt. It's hard to operate in those scenarios, but it is the reality of tech and startups. Yes. Yeah, and it's not for everybody- [laughs]... but a few of us absolutely love it and thrive on it. 100%.
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From JobAdder, you then became the youngest CFO of an Australian tech unicorn. What was the turning point when you realized, "I'm ready for this next challenge," even if there was moments of doubt?
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There wasn't a defined turning point.
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The way that I think about it, and again it's a consistent thing, is that I've always felt that there's a number of opportunities that are gonna cross our paths, you know, throughout our careers, and if you've done the work and you've invested in yourself and you're always d- doing your best to progress and to be better and to take on more, when those opportunities cross your path, you'll be ready to take them or you won't.
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I'm a big believer in just constantly investing in self and upskilling and trying to round myself out commercially and to take on more so that when opportunities come up, I'm ready and I can seize them.
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You can't phone it in. You can do it or you can't. And in the same light, the way that I think about it is not so much am I ready or not and limiting the thinking. It's more I'm gonna learn where I'm at, you know?
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I'm only gonna know what my capacity is and what my ability is and what my cap is today by putting myself at risk of something that's a little bit scary and outside my comfort zone.
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I don't think I ever thought about it in terms of, "Well, here's all the things that I have to be able to do, and am I ready and am I prepared?"
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I think it was opportunity's here, and you take a step forward, and I'm going to learn where I'm at and where I still need to progress and develop and, and I'll build on it from there. And that's always served me well.
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I think most people are still working it out, you know? I think very few people have all the answers, and no one business is the same, and no one business has all the same challenges.
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It's the problem-solving mindset and bringing some positive energy to it that just- Mm-hmm... helps unblock things. The advice that I always like to share is to take the opportunity before you think you're ready for it.
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I think that's something that's probably happened naturally throughout my career, where you just jump in the deep end and grab the opportunity.
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I think a lot of people can focus on what's the list of things that I have to tick off before I'm ready, and you're never gonna be ready. Just jump in. How big was your team when you joined Deputy?
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I think roughly it was around 40, 50 people across my teams. I had half a dozen teams or so, but I'd say it was roughly 50 people in total.
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It's moved a little bit in terms of different scopes and teams that I've taken on or have moved to other leaders and such, but it's usually been between 50 to 70 people.
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Deputy is bigger than JobAdder, so it was certainly a step up. A lot of similar themes and challenges, a lot of shared experiences, which were great, but larger in scale.
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Did you experience additional pressure to prove yourself as a female CFO? Not that I was aware of, no. No.
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I'd love to hear something valuable and insightful and inspiring there, but look, have I had comments throughout my career? Yes. Have I probably been underestimated at times? Yes.
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I don't think you have to take that pressure on, though. I don't think you have to take it on, and I don't know that it serves you well to internalize that and then bring that into the room.
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I think knowing what you have to do and what your job is and where do you need to perform and where you need to have impact, that should be the focus.
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And if you're entering a room or a meeting where that perception is there, then the way to win over the crowd is to actually deliver, you know, and to prove it wrong.
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So I have been very fortunate in that, no, I, I haven't felt that. I've felt tremendously supported coming into, to Deputy specifically, and I know I'm answering that question reflecting on my career.
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But Deputy specifically, I, I felt tremendous support. Tremendous support from our leaders, from our board, from our new CEO, Silvia Martincovic, who joined in 2023.
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Incredible people to be surrounded by, and it's evident in Deputy's culture from top to bottom right throughout. So I've been very fortunate in that regard. And that's awesome.
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We often hear of the horror stories of tech and startup, so it's so nice to hear that you've had this really positive and fruitful- Yeah... experience. Let's dive deeper into your work at Deputy.
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You've driven the company to profitability and unicorn status, which is no small feat. What have been the biggest challenges you face as a leader? It's always a good story to look back on, you know?
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I like that you're teasing that out. A lot of people sort of celebrate the wins and the highlights, and it, it is a lot of work that goes into it. When I joined Deputy, it was a very interesting time.
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We were going through a, a transition of CEO and the markets had changed, and we did have to optimize for runway and for profitability over just burning cash and acquisition. We did things really well.
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We acted early, and we were very analytical and very data-driven around what was actually serving us and what was giving us a strong ROI and, and where should we be investing across the business.
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And we were able to weather a pretty difficult storm that a lot of our industry peers were hurt by, and we saw this happening with, you know, multiple risks and layoffs and things like that.
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So I think it's a great story when you look back on it and, hey, we were able to do that and still maintain a level of growth and still reach unicorn status and move into profitability.
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It, it wasn't easy, but it was so satisfying because it was the right thing for the business at the right time, and we acted at the right time.
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It's a huge testament to Deputy's team as well because we have this workforce of just incredible commercial, intelligent people that all wear the company hat first.
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I think that was a big part in that success story was that we had such wonderful engagement with our team, and we communicated with them, and we were transparent with them so that they could all rally and, and help us solve the problem.
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That's not mine to take credit for alone. That was an effort from all of Deputy, and they should all be very proud of it.
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In doing that and in welcoming, you know, new leadership into the company and, and setting us up for the next chapter and strengthening our strategy, and then when we went out to market from a true position of strength financially, we secured two very key strategic investors, which have, have been shared publicly now, Express Pros and Zero, which are future unlocks and potential for us in terms of distribution, which will help us get Deputy into the hands of, of thousands, uh, of more businesses worldwide.
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I think in terms of the milestones that helped us got there, those two key strategics were, were a big unlock for us and will continue to be immensely valuable going forward, and the work that we'd done the year prior with the team was really important to enable that.
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And in addition to that, there's no silver bullets. It's doing a lot of things well. It's doing a lot of little things really well.
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And so having a team that's focused on the right goals and priorities and maintaining pace and a level of passion and an energy around what they're doing and the impact that they're having is a huge credit to all of our Deputies.
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Is there a really tactical thing that you did during that time that worked for you? Anything tactical that we did, probably the rebalancing of the financial trajectory was very tactical.
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We'd come out of a time where I'm sure you remember at the end of 2021, and cash was cheap, and valuations were huge, and everyone was raising, and it was all just growth at all costs.
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Was a very tactical exercise to rebalance what was important and what was going to really strengthen our position and ensure our future through what was anticipated to be a pretty difficult time.
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We did that really well, but that was highly tactical in nature. To be able to rebalance things and to optimize for runway, it was a few months' worth of work to do it well.
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And on that thread with your strategic investors, what insights do you have from that fundraising experience as an operator?
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One of the most insightful things was as, as a business scales, they may take on different levels of capital and from different flavors of investor, if you like, throughout the years. The business needs evolve.
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Again, we're so fortunate. We have wonderful investors at Deputy, and we have a wonderful board, and we have so much support and such great advisors i- in that capacity.
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I think the needs evolve over time, where it might be very different to when you're earlier stage and needing maybe more operating help or guidance or, or advisors there, versus, you know, where we found ourselves late last year, was that what we were looking for was...
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Like I said, we were profitable. It wasn't like we needed cash. We didn't need someone to write us a check. We wanted partners to join us that were going to really unlock future value, and were kindred spirits- Mm-hmm...
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in nature, you know? Folks that we could partner with and saw the world the same as we did and were passionate about the impact and could actually help us drive value for both parties.
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I guess that was a key insight as well, is that when people think about raising capital and it's not just about the check, it's about who are you actually taking on and being on this journey with and who's gonna partner with you in the right way at the right point in time for how the business is operating.
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What I'm hearing from you is distribution was one of your core pillars there.
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So for anyone else on the journey, it's what future, what partnership do you want, whether it's go-to-market, whether it's getting into the US or a new market. Yeah, absolutely.
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What's the company's strategy and where is it constrained and where can it be helped and, and what are the unlocks and, and what will be the, the biggest driver of value?
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And being very protective of, of who you let in, you know?
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Because if you're passionate about what you're doing and you believe in it and it's sacred, then you, you should be very selective about who gets through the front door.
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And what did you enjoy most about that process, the fundraising process? I mean, I love all things scaleup. I love the pace. I love the challenge. It was such an intense time.
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I shared that I welcomed my little girl eight months ago, so I was still pregnant during that time, and I was traveling, and we were closing deals, and I loved it. I loved it. We met such brilliant people.
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I'm so proud of how our team showed up during those transactions. I'm so grateful for the partners that we took on.
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I couldn't ask for more i- in terms of what an incredible fit they are for us and how excited we are to do business with them. But just that vibe, just that pace, I thrive in that environment.
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I love it, and I love the camaraderie. I love the satisfaction of when there is a really big challenge in front of us, and we're just shoulder to shoulder and truly operating as a team.
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I'm very proud of the integrity and the resilience and the tenacity of, of our team. Congratulations. What's that gear change going from startup to scaleup 'cause you really thrive in this scaleup environment?
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I don't know, to be honest. It's probably a little bit individual because I think I'd have the same gear no matter what environment you put me in. Yeah. You know what I mean?
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You would expect startup to be a little bit scrappier and a little bit more creative and, and scaleup to, okay, they're starting to get some process in place, and the business might be maturing, and you'd expect the culture and the process and things like that to change and the structure of it.
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I think, honestly, it probably comes down to the individual in that whatever environment you put them in, they're going to be them.
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I suspect that, you know, myself and my colleagues and my team probably are gonna operate at the same pace no matter what, uh, room you put them in.
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I apologize if this is already covered in your answers, but just for clarity, what were some of those key milestones on the path of becoming a unicorn from an operational perspective?
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From an operational perspective, it's more of an evolution. As the business is growing, you just need to, I suppose, strengthen a- and mature a lot of the operations.
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So for us, Deputy grew up in Australia and has largely been product led, and so there's that section of the business that is still product led.
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But then as we've scaled up, we've moved further and further up market, so there's the maturity of our, our GTM motions and outbound and getting more creative and winning bigger deals and, and that evolves in terms of sales strategy and positioning and marketing strategy, and everything flows from that.
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From my vantage point within the business, it's probably a lot more rigor around data and analytics and what are we tracking and how we're pacing toward our goals, and really keeping a finger on the pulse on what's going right and what's not going right, and being able to pivot early and adjust.
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I think probably more so when you start up, you're wearing probably a lot more hats, and everybody leans in, and it...
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there's probably a lot more generalized and less expertise, if I was to summarize it in a way operationally.
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When I think of our earlier startup, it's probably more one person could be juggling five or six things and loves it, and it's scrappy, and you just have to make it work.
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And I think as you scale, you probably are leaning more on swim lanes, structure, reporting, process, cadences, accountability, bringing the right expertise, the right caliber of leadership so that it just gets more focused and more precise.
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You know, every spoke on the wheel has to come together. A- and it's still a team, but it's just probably more focused operationally and by ring it.
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Do you think there's still room for generalists in a scaleup environment? I think any business that is still innovating and is still product led, then of course, there's still a lot of experimenting and testing.
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I think the balance just starts to recalibrate, you know? You touched on your leadership team, which you've actually got an 80% female mix in your leadership team, which is pretty unique.
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I actually can't think of another company that does have that. What impact do you see from your vantage point having such a diverse team at the top? We're very passionate about having a diverse leadership team.
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One of the biggest drivers for us is that the customers we serve are incredibly diverse. We need that representation at the leadership level because it starts with that.
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It starts with empathy for our customers and understanding our customers.
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We are stronger as a business for having a leadership team that brings all of those perspectives and can empathize and relate and help steer, you know? So I think that's the impact that we see. It touches everything.
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It's a trickier thing to try and tangibly say the precise impact and how do you measure it. It involves everything. We're just better for having that representation and for setting that example.
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There's the whole, "If I can see it, I can be it," so it's also a culture that is fostering and, and rolls throughout the business.
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I think one of the, the elements that we're most passionate about is that we have to have a team that represents the customers. Do you have any takeaways that helped you get to that 80% mix? Did you have any criteria?
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What did your playbook look like to get to that mix?
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I think there's certainly an, an element of it that is deliberate, but I think the most important thing is there is such incredible talent out there from all walks of life.
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You're limiting the potential of the team and the success of the team if we're too constrained.
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We have to be open and all-inclusive of making sure that we're creating opportunities for diverse leadership, and so I think that has just always been forefront.
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We want the best talent in the best seats and the best people doing the job, and I think that has always been our MO, but there's always been a lens and a deliberate move toward, well, you know, let's make sure that we're creating these opportunities for diversity as well.
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So obviously you own the finance function and influence the financials across the business, but how do you get the teams across the company to engage in those finances and the financial goals and almost, like, foster financial literacy across those teams, regardless of their level?
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Great question.
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We use a couple of frameworks, but it, it starts with alignment around what is the strategy and what are the big strategic initiatives that we need to be delivering on in order to move that forward and, and to execute.
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And so we start with what are our big rocks, you know? I- in any given year, it's like, okay, what are the things that we have to get done this year?
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And then that rolls down into OKRs and goals for the team, and everybody has to measure it, and there are clearly defined objectives and results that are measured and, and all of the appropriate metrics by segment and by geo and by team.
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So how do we then help with financial literacy and people understanding it? We speak to our team. It's really that simple.
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We speak about this at a company level- And then we speak about it at a director level where the leaders in the business are across it.
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And then we're also equipping and, and enabling our directors and our managers to carry the water and to make sure that this is discussed in their team meetings and their team setting.
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And then I play a part as well in when I'm speaking to the company, I try to explain the why and I try to take the complex and make it simple, and a little bit of a 101 on, on some of these things, you know, why they matter and what the impact is and what does it mean.
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I don't think there's an easy way to do it where we can just have everybody at parity at any given moment.
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People do come from different backgrounds and experience, and some people are already brilliant and highly literate and totally equipped, and others are joining a SaaS business for the first time, and it's an education for them.
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We start with some consistency and leadership around what's important, why is it important, what should be watching, and how do we measure it.
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And then we have cadences where it's our managers and leaders are playing that forward. We have cadences where we're talking about things in WBRs and QBRs and team lookbacks as well.
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And it's just through talking about it that people are, are educated over time. We have a very open culture where I would trust that anyone would ask questions or reach out to me or, or my team or whomever is needed.
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So what's one thing from your time at Deputy that you're most proud of? I think the story that I shared with you in just navigating so much change over the last couple of years is a point of pride.
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I was proud to join Deputy regardless.
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I'm loving seeing some of our tech companies in Australia just start to shine on a global stage, and I was a fan of Deputy when I was at JobAdder, so I was already proud to be joining this incredible company, and it has been an absolute privilege.
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I'm still having a, a lot of fun.
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But I think we navigated through such an interesting couple of years where it was the shift in the macro environment and there was a big move toward, you know, optimizing for runway, and then there was a big transition with welcoming in our new CEO, and then we went and secured these two big strategic investors that had just unlocked so much potential for us.
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And to be able to stabilize our team, you know, hundreds of deputies through all of that, and see that they're still engaged and passionate and clear on what they're doing and why they're doing it.
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I think just that journey over the last couple of years, it's been a lot of work, but it's been so satisfying.
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And now we've really just shored up our position and we're operating from such a strong position that now we're just in execution mode.
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We know what we need to do and it's heads down, and that fills us with pride every day just in seeing us move things forward. I can feel the pride jumping out of the screen.
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You've really done the hard work, and to then be in execution mode is really exciting.
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Do you have any advice for folks working in head of roles where there's already so much change happening and then acquisitions or new leadership creates so much uncertainty and change as to the future of the company, et cetera?
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What would be your advice or any tactics to sit in the messiness for a while and just see how that unfolds? I think my advice would be if you're signing up to a scale-up, then there's going to be an element of change.
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It is going to be fast-paced, it is going to be uncomfortable, and you shouldn't expect things to stay the same.
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Whether it's changes in leadership, whether it's acquisitions, whether it's just scope and remit of the function you're in and watching it evolve.
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If the company is growing, then every year essentially it's gonna feel like a different company.
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And so trying to, I guess, get comfortable with the discomfort and just embracing it and knowing that it's normal and being open, and also realizing that in those moments and whenever there's change, there's also opportunities, and it's an opportunity for these people to put up their hand and make themself known, try and take on more and try and shine, and they should lean into that.
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Y- y- you can look at anything glass half full, glass half empty, but if you're in a scaling business, it's always gonna be evolving.
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And looking for the opportunities in that and looking for how you're best gonna have an impact.
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The one common thing is that if everybody's on the same team, you want the company and the customers and all stakeholders to win.
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So I, I'd be looking at whatever vantage point these people are in and whatever their role is, how are you gonna have the biggest impact? How will you contribute? And take the opportunity to make yourself known.
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What balls are you gonna catch? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I love that. So anything to add on Deputy before we move on to more of you as an operator? We've covered a lot of ground. I think just stay tuned.
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I say that we're in execution mode because we're always in execution mode, by the way, but I think we're just heads down now, and 2025 is gonna be a very exciting one. So just stay tuned.
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We'll be able to share more and more as appropriate. Well, all the best for that journey.
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Zooming out to more of you just as an operator, what would you say your most valuable skills or genius zones are that distinguish you? I don't think I've ever had it phrased as a genius zone, but I like the context.
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I've been told my most valuable skills are probably also for the seat in which I'm sitting, is around communication.
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I have a capacity to take something that's quite complex and simplify it, and I know regardless of who I'm speaking to, if it's very senior, if it's very junior, I can sort of craft a narrative in a way that I know it's gonna hit people at different levels and at different points as it needs to.
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I think that's been a really important skill, and I hope becoming more and more of a skill required to my role. It doesn't matter how brilliant you are or how much you know.
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If you can't communicate, if you can't influence, if you can't, you know, sell even, it's not gonna be as impactful. That's been an advantage in just being able to have an impact and be effective.
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And I think whatever leadership role you're sitting in, being able to bring the whole company along for your function- Yeah... is incredibly important. Storytelling. That's right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It is.
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So we're at the point that we're gonna look ahead. So looking at the big picture world out there, what emerging trends do you see shaping the future roles of tech operators, and how can we best prepare now?
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I wish I had a crystal ball because it's all changing rapidly. The obvious one is what role is AI gonna play?
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Whether it is making things more efficient, whether it's actually taking on roles that are, uh, uh, traditionally done by people, we'll see.
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I think we need to be across that and everybody just needs to be keeping an ear to the ground on what is going to be disrupt and how roles will evolve within our own functions, of course, but also for our customers and so on.
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But it's moving so, so quickly that it's hard to anticipate. But we should expect, I, I guess, a level of automation, of redundancy in jobs, but also in how can it be leveraged to make things more efficient.
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I would just say staying, you know, full on is the best play. From a finance function, just out of curiosity, how are you using AI today? It's in a couple of things that we use. I, I don't leverage it in a massive way.
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We certainly have things that are probably more mundane and just a little bit more administrative heavy where it's okay to leverage, and it's sort of embedded in a couple of products.
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But it's something that, as a company, we're very interested in.
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It's probably more topical for me at the moment in terms of how can we be using it in our product, or how is it gonna disrupt our customers, and things like that.
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Deputy dedicates a lot of time to it in terms of AI hackathons and how do we innovate from that perspective. Oh, nice. Internally hackathons? Correct. Yes. Yeah. We have one coming up in December.
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It's how do we harness all of the incredible brainpower and wonderful ideas and innovation that's already sitting out there in our team, and- Carving out space for that to bring it to life.
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I'm hearing this theme come up more and more, and it's just genius. Sounds simple, but actually just to get that diversity of thought. You mentioned you've got your new daughter. What's her name, by the way? Madison.
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Hi, Madison. When you're older, you'll be listening to this. Yes. What's on the cards for you in the future, both personally and professionally? I think professionally, I've always just had a direction.
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Li- like I said, I've, I've always wanted to just invest in self, always get better, always trying to learn, always trying to stretch myself. Rounding myself out commercially, I think is really important. I love tech.
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I love the space that I'm in. I wanna get better as a leader. I wanna continue to evolve.
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I'm very passionate about what we're doing at Deputy, and as the company grows and as the company scales, then that just creates more and more opportunity for all of us to grow and to take on new challenges, and it will impose and demand more of us to be better.
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So that's my focus at the moment. It's just stretching in my capacity that makes sense and being what Deputy needs as well as it grows, and I'm very committed to seeing through what we've started.
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And personally, I think I summed it up. It's a whole new chapter.
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It's a whole new adventure of having a little one and being new to being a first-time mom and everything that comes with that, and just finding the balance and, you know, the moments that are special and...
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It's been really wonderful. It is also very, very hard, as I'm sure m- many people relate to. But yeah, really, really wonderful.
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And from what I hear, this is a very, very special age, so on the personal front, I'm just dedicated to being the best mom I can be to, to little Madison. How is the sleep going? Wonderful.
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If I could share anything, that would be my biggest word of advice. I do have a big job, and I have to have the balance, and I have to be able to rest in order to do this well.
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When I was on maternity leave, Madison was not a great sleeper in the first couple of months, and I was so acutely aware of, I'm sure I'm gonna be able to work this out, but I think I'm gonna just grind through it, and I don't want to.
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I wanna be present and enjoy this because these moments are fleeting.
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And so we actually had a consultation with a sleep consultant, and it was one hour of my time, and within three days, this beautiful little baby was just sleeping soundly through the night, and Mom and Dad have had, [laughs]
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have had restful night's sleep ever since. So if anybody listening is in that boat, don't hesitate. It'll be the best thing that you've ever done. Need to be able to rest. High ROI investment. Very much so. Very much so.
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That makes me so happy for you. Mm-hmm.
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In terms of s- frameworks or north stars or industry mentors who have been your north stars on your journey, do you have anything to share to help folks listening either be more commercially rounded or in areas that have leapfrogged your growth?
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I've leaned heavily on frameworks that prioritize agility and scalability. You heard me speak about OKRs earlier on. Like, something like that is a framework that we, we just can't operate without it.
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That's really important in terms of how do you align a, a company and a cross-functional group of people around the right goals to make sure that when we are moving at pace, and there's hundreds of people, that we're all moving in the right direction, and we're all moving the right things forward.
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That has been a key one for me.
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I think another, uh, approach that's always been a, a north star, as you say, is first principles thinking, breaking down the complex, just to navigate that and try to understand the problem and then work out the problem.
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There's very few problems that can't be solved. Sometimes we can overcomplicate things a little bit. I think they've been always very helpful for me. How can I as an operator become more commercially rounded?
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I think you have to take on the opportunities. I would say what is the end goal?
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If you're an operator and you're wanting to get to the CFO spot or to the CEO spot or to the CRO spot, what does it mean to be a commercial leader in those capacities?
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I think gone are the days where CFOs were just looking back on financials and telling you what the business did last year. It is now about how do you anticipate what's coming? How do you help drive growth?
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How do you help really define strategies? Being commercially rounded in that sort of a seat, it might be talking to investors and bankers and understanding the landscape in which you're operating.
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It might be joining customer calls and understanding what's happening in the product and what are the pain points and how do things need to evolve so that we know that we're meeting them where they're going to be and not where they've been historically.
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You know, like how to think more commercially about where the company's going and to move it forward.
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If it's more of a revenue seat or a CEO seat, it might be, uh, and this is true as well for a CFO, but how to actually grow and, and accelerate growth. So is it in those key partnerships that have to happen?
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Is it in distribution unlocks? Is it joining large deals that have to be closed and helping to negotiate?
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I would look to maybe what are the key skills that are going to be needed to have success in the goal, to have success in the role that you aspire to having.
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They may be nuanced, but they all sort of circulate around, around the same themes, and then just exposing yourself to them. Speaking to a mentor or to a leader and saying, "Hey, take me under your wing.
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I'm not strong on this bit. I wanna ride shotgun. I wanna see how it's done well, and then start letting me cut my teeth on a little bit and get some experience with it." There's no way to, to build it without doing it.
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That kind of goes back to your advice earlier about catching those balls that aren't your balls to catch, and reframing your thinking in a meeting that you're delivering your piece in a more commercially rounded way.
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So I may report on what this customer and that revenue actually means for X or X partnership that I'm running. I guess what you're speaking to is tailoring your narrative and the message that you're sharing. Mm-hmm.
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And if you're speaking to commercial leaders, that's a great piece of advice. What are they going to care about, and how do I connect the dots for them? That's a very good muscle to build.
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You can tell that I'm on that journey myself. Everybody is. Everybody is in some respects. Who's another operator in Australia, New Zealand doing incredible things or at the top of their game?
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When I'm asked that question, the person that comes to mind is Melanie [laughs] from Canva.
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I love Mel's story of the knock-backs before the success, and that everybody, you know, again, loves to look at it, what a success story, but just the perseverance and the dedication and the tenacity that she and her team must have had in building such an incredible company.
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And now just seeing them, again, just shine on the world stage is just wonderful. I love the examples of any Australian tech companies that are just really doing a wonderful job globally.
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It's so inspiring, and it's such a wonderful example, and it makes us all better and pulls us all up, you know? That's such an incredible story, and they've had such tremendous success.
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They deserve all the credit and all the celebration. And reminding yourself that they had that journey- Yeah... to get there. Absolutely. It...
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You know, everybody started somewhere, and it was just one step after another, so yeah, incredible. We love to end the podcast, just focus around mental wellness.
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For those of us wanting to become better operators, do you have any advice or a tactic that's helped you along the way to stay more grounded?
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One thing that's helped me a lot is, to be really honest, I probably learnt the hard way earlier on in my career.
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I probably had moments where, oh, I actually am overdoing it, and I'm burning out a little bit, and, you know. I probably pushed the boundaries a little bit early on, which helped me realize what my warning signs were.
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I think it's pretty common that people probably have a time in their career where they've experienced something like that, but the more important thing is to learn from it. I learnt that very early on.
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What are my warning signs? And for me, it was things like, I'm usually quite engaged and quite energetic and can bring a lot of drive to what I'm doing.
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So if I start slowing down and checking out, it's like, okay, I know my energy's running low, or things like that. It's knowing what your warning signs are and not ignoring them. Absolutely rest, you know?
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It's, it- the temptation of, like, everybody wants to shoulder so much. It's not a badge of honor if you burn out, and just to look how many late nights you've had.
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Y- your team and your company needs you at your best, and you can only bring that every day if you actually are taking a break and having a rest. So prioritize that.
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And for me, I've been very fortunate to have an incredible group of people around me, including the leaders within Deputy, my husband, and my family.
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I also have a wonderful group of people that know me well and also just check in, you know? They can see when I'm picking up pace, and they care enough to ask the question.
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So I guess also just having a little bit of community and a bit of a network around you. We can all get drawn in, and it's good to just have a checkpoint. I love that community piece.
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So Emma, thank you so much for your time today. Where can people find you or follow along on your journey? Uh, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn these days. That's probably the, the best place to find me.
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Otherwise, you can always find me at Deputy. I'm always there. And what have you got planned for the Christmas break? Um, a pretty quiet one, I think.
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Staycations are just sounding lovely, so if we have a little bit of time off over Christmas and just relaxing, backyard barbecues, time with the baby, I'll be very happy with that just to recharge ahead of the new year.
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Oh, yes, of course. Yes. First Christmas. Yeah, very special. Very, very special. Enjoy the holidays, and we'll chat soon. Thank you so much, Laura. Appreciate the time. And that's a wrap.
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Today's episode was recorded and edited by me, your host, Laura Nichol, with original music composed by Stephen Shelton. If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a follow, and we'll see you next time.
