WEBVTT
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Being successful is about differentiation and standing out in the marketplace.
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You're taking the baseline of what everyone's doing, but you're also showing up in new exciting ways because if you don't, you become everyone else, right?
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And you become irrelevant.
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Real quick, just give me your personal like journey.
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Yeah.
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You know, like where did you fall in love with design?
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How did you come into it?
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Yeah.
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So it's a long journey, but I'll try to give you real quick.
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My dad is a lawyer and my mom's a painter.
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And I always start the story that way because I think in my life and in my upbringing, I was exposed to really incredible storytelling around vision and the detail of history and research that all of human rights law is about, right?
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And my dad was a human rights lawyer.
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And he was just like an incredible storyteller.
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And I always would sit at his feet as a kid and listen to him tell these amazing stories about not just the past, but how the past could be made relevant for the future and how society and culture needed to change.
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And there's like an analytical side of that and a really strategic side of that that I've always had.
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And but I've also always loved craft.
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My mom's a painter.
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I grew up around a lot of artists who are sculptors and you know, makers of different forms.
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And I always was in the studio with her, also drawing at a very early age and sketching things and making ceramics and making sculptures and learning from her.
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And I've always had these two sides.
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And I think in my early years, I was like, am I one thing?
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Am I more interested in this?
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Am I more interested in that?
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And I think the truth is I'm both.
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And I think that's what design and great creativity at commerce kind of scale is about, right?
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It's about taking incredible strategy and vision and connecting that to really specific forms of craft and specific forms of interpretation, whether they be visual or through storytelling narratives or other devices.
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And so I think it's like the perfect confluence.
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I discovered design sort of as a kid doing photography in the back in the day, like in the dark room and learning how to make photos.
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And then I discovered Photoshop in the early years of computer kind of technology.
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And I started making my own ads, like putting myself in Nike ads because I wanted to be a basketball player.
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And I loved, you know, the Michael Jordans and the, you know, Dennis Rodmans of the world.
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And so I started using Photoshop to create this world mostly for fun, right?
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And just to kind of punk my friends.
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But it was really this teenage expression of creating worlds and narratives that allowed me to use these really great tools that I was just discovering with photography, Photoshop, typography, and all the systems of design.
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And so that was my early discovery of design was really just finding out that I could take incredible tech tools and start to use those to tell amazing stories, both from a craft perspective and from a narrative perspective.
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That's how I fell in love with it.
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And um my teachers, fortunately, in high school were able to say, like, that's design.
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And I went to design school and fell in love with it even further.
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And uh that's what I'm doing today.
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It's an incredible story.
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I love, I love that that that's where the origins are.
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And I often find it that incredible designers are really born inherently loving design.
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Yeah.
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It's like incepted into us or something.
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Yeah, I agree.
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It's like found along the way.
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How did you discover design?
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I discovered design in my early days as well.
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I used to make mixed CDs back when that was a thing.
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And I would put all the songs on the CD and I would design the little label and I would hand those over to family and friends, and I would sketch a whole lot when I was a kid.
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I would draw as much as I could.
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I loved art as well.
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I classified myself as an artist, but I didn't think there was money in it.
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So then I removed that classification for myself for a majority of my career until recently.
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So I was like, oh, I know, you know, the starving artist concept, right?
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But I went through school not knowing exactly how to what I wanted before I went to college.
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I was like, what can I do with my love of design?
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And I first I was like architecture, and then I discovered communication design, and that's what I actually went to school and classically trained in.
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And I fell in love with it.
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I also considered interior design, but I knew I wanted to do something with design.
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Neither one of my parents are in design either.
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But I think my dad taught me how to think and how to critique.
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Like he is, you know, it was hard as an upbringer because he's he's always focused on making things the best it can be.
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And even with me, he was always like, like he'll call me today if I send him a photo.
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He's like, Why is the camera lens blurry?
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Or like he's but he taught me how to look at something and really fine-tune and be, I don't want to call it pessimistic about something, but maybe optimistic about the ideal perspective it could have.
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So cool.
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Yeah, I was a similar in a similar space.
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Like I was curious about architecture and still am.
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And um I've been was always curious about industrial design and the ways that you build physical objects.
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But yeah, I think design is everywhere.
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And I think I have this great love for it.
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It isn't just graphic design or experience design or whatever it might be, like in the spaces that we're working on.
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I think that in that curiosity of other spaces of design has also been something I've like always pursued.
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Tell us how did you get into what you do now?
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Yeah.
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Like from that childhood, what was the journey into what you're doing now?
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Yeah.
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So I started applying to colleges, taking that kind of premise of okay, design is a thing, which I discovered, you know, and these great tools of technology that I could start to use.
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And I went to college for design.
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So I knew once I discovered kind of the space, I was like, who gonna do design?
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And I was like bouncing back and forth between graphic design and in my mind, I was like, industrial design might be something I explore.
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I was always curious about physical objects.
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So I studied graphic design.
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I moved to New York City.
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I studied in a college upstate New York.
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I moved to New York City and fell in love with New York City immediately.
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I arrived at like Grand Central Station, and I literally was this is the most incredible place on earth.
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There's this amazing energy here, constantly.
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And there's all this like influx of different cultures and experiences into my life in real time.
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And back then, this is pre-social media era.
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I'm like an old man.
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So everything that you discovered was real, it was tangible, right?
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And it was so much about pursuing curiosity.
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Life was about pursuing curiosity, much more back then, in the sense that if I met someone, they would be like, hey, come to this art opening I'm having.
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And I would go to that art opening, and then eventually we would end up at a bar, and then we eventually we'd go out to some cool neighborhood that I never discovered.
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You know, at the time it was meat packing, which back then was there was nothing in the meat packing except like a couple interesting clubs.
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And so you could kind of follow this thread of curiosity.
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And I will say that that kind of built the foundation for my approach to design and my career as a whole is I was trained through New York culture to kind of follow the thread of curiosity.
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So I started working as a graphic designer at a design shop.
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And then I was like really curious about art direction and what that could look like and telling stories through visuals.
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And I started working at an ad agency as an art director.
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And then I was really curious about the built environment.
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How do you build experiences for people?
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And experiential was becoming a thing.
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So I kind of jumped into that and started building experiential platforms and activations and pop-ups and like building things for the built environment.
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And then apps and like web was big.
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And I kind of followed my curiosity into like interactive design and experience design and how do you build really kind of great kind of interactions, right?
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And how do you get people to follow a story through a thread and through a line on a tiny phone or on screen?
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And that was such a fascinating thing.
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So I just kind of like followed these incredible curiosities that led me from one place to another in the world of marketing creativity and design at large.
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And in the past, like current kind of era of my career, I was at Publicis where I led a team across design, strategic creativity across specific brands like Crocs, Delta, Walmart, LVMH32 Maisons.
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I was really working at scale of brands.
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And then I helped set up what's called the Unicorn Labs at Digitas and Publicist, which is an innovation incubator internally that worked on AI and augmented reality and gaming experiences.
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So, in the same way that I was sort of as a kid curious about technology through Photoshop, I've always maintained that curiosity and like I was really excited about emerging technology and the implications of that emerging technology.
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And so prior to Red Antler, I was leading that kind of holistic thinking around brand at a huge agency.
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Like Publicys is 100,000 people, Digitas is 1,500 people, my team was 100 people.
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It was large scaling, right?
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And I worked across different agencies within Publicys and this model that they have called the Power of One.
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And what was really interesting there was that I was moving the needle on brands 5%, right?
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10% every year.
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And what was really exciting and appealing about Red Antler in this opportunity was the ability to move a brand from like zero to nothing.
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It's like what you were talking about.
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Brands come to us at Red Antler, they have an idea or the start of an idea, and we help make it real from the ground up.
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And all of this incredible experience that I have and all these great curiosity that I've had across my career, I think is really relevant to brand building now because the most important places for brands now are no longer just like the symbol or the word mark or the interface or the experience design.
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It's everything, right?
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It's like, how do you make brands relevant in social media?
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How do you make them relevant in experiential and retail and the physical environment?
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And so, in an odd way, like all of my collective experiences have led me to this point where I think that my background is almost perfectly suited for the environment that we're in as brands today, which is an environment that requires a breadth of knowledge across lots of different disciplines and the ability to connect those dots, right?
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And I think that just comes with time.
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In an odd way, all of these great curiosities have led me to a place where I'm a generalist with a lot of expertise across a lot of different disciplines.
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And I think fortunately, I'm able to kind of connect dots, I think, in a really interesting way for brands, both in the startup space and then of course into the enterprise space.
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So that's how kind of I ended up at Red Antler and how I ended up doing what I'm doing today.
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I want to dive into some of that a little bit more.
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And but I have to just say that when you're talking about the energy of following the adventure and the excitement and the innovation and the technology.
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Now we have to talk about AI because I feel like it's that same thing.
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Last night I literally almost didn't sleep because I was vibe coding.
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And I like was so excited about it.
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Like it What were you vibe coding?
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I want to know.
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Okay, okay, okay.
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You want to know what I'm vibe coding?
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Is everything.
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Like I've opened the box and I can't stop, Kaiser.
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I like literally can't stop.
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Okay, so we vibe coded most recently like our own task management system.
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And I was using a tool called Bonsai, and it just didn't fit anymore.
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It's like this is not working.
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And before that, we were on other task management systems like Asana.
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We tried using Slack, and there just nothing seemed to fit the way we work.
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And it was just this need that I had, and I such a huge frustration of a pain point.
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And I kept talking to my husband about it over and over and over again.
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He's like, we have to solve this for you because you're driving me nuts complaining about it all the time.
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So literally over the weekend, vibe coded the tool.
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The team is using it now, and it's incredible.
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Like they're everyone's like, oh, it's so much better.
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That was the thing I vibe coded.
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And then the other thing I vibe coded, which I will hopefully get to share with you, is a podcast platform that allows me to vet and discover new podcast guests and send them the agenda, which you asked me for before this call.
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But ideally, what's gonna happen is I'm gonna be able to send you a little link and it's gonna say, This is what Olivia's gonna cover with you today.
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And here's if you want to add anything to it, you should add here and put here.
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So that's what I'm personally vibe coding right now.
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I love that.
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I can't wait to see it.
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And I want to hear more about all the things you're building.
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I think right now, because I follow that energy too that you're talking about, I like following your excitement.
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And there's this energy in me right now to keep following it.
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And I think I it won't always be this much energy, but it literally is like the inception of ideas came from like, I don't even know where they came, but all at once, all of my problems can be solved.
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And now I'm like, I must create the tools to solve them.
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And now I can.
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And so I'm like, I want to get it done.
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So I'm I have set of things I'm gonna do, and um, I'm very, very excited about it.
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I love it.
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That's so cool.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I think we're in an era where the tools are so powerful.
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And if you have a great idea, you can make it happen.
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And I think it's like the gold rush, it feels like it's like everyone wants to do something, right?
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And I think what's what's really crazy about it all as well, though, is that it's this gold rush at the moment, right?
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Because it's so valuable in that not everyone understands how to use the tools, right?
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But I think the scary thing in terms of just staying up late at night, also, is that you know what happens when there's infinite gold, right?
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You know, gold is only valuable in its scarcity.
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And what happens when everyone has access to unlimited gold, right?
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I think that's like a really interesting thing.
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What happens when everyone has access to unlimited intelligence that can move at scale, at speed?
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Where does the value shift to and what does value become?
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And I think those are kind of questions, existential questions we're all asking as an industry.
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I think on our end as an agency, we're obviously caught up in the gold rush of it all.
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But I think we are also cognizant of the value in creativity and an incredible strategy.
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And I think that so much of creativity is about experimentation.
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And like you said, you're up all night and you're experimenting, you're building new things, right?
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And I think that that is the creative edge, right?
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You have this incredible creative edge because you're able to take new things and form them into, you know, your kind of vision for what something should be or what something should become.
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And I think that's a really exciting kind of very human capability that I think we really love to focus on.
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I think we're really kind of curious about what how we define that value.
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I think that's what everyone's thinking about at the moment.
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I think on our end, in terms of AI and this curiosity for what's next, we're doing a lot of the same stuff.
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We're having a hackathon with the team.
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We're thinking about like what is the OS of Red Antler in terms of the AI operating system that helps empower all the like back-end tools of everything that we do on the operation side, right?
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And then we're thinking a lot about how we can become a consultant and an advisor to the brands that we work on in the same way that we've leveraged Photoshop and you know, Illustrator in the past and Figma and all these great tools.
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How do we become the agency of kind of you know, of record for brands who want to really like think about how they evolve themselves into a space leveraging that technology as well?
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So we're thinking a lot about building custom processes for brands, custom tools for brands.
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We're working with like McKinsey, as I said on the early part of this call, and they have this incredible publishing platform.
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Like McKinsey is one of the leaders in terms of publishing great business thought case studies, thought leadership articles, like advisory kind of research papers.
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And people turn to McKinsey, of course, for those insights, both as consultants and just more broadly on McKinsey.com.
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We're working with them to think about like how we leverage these great tools to really accelerate that and to really get that into a really compelling place as a publisher.
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And that's about production, right?
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That's about taking information, putting it out into the world in a way that feels really exciting and really compelling.
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I think there's the back end of it, which is the production side, which is how do you make things faster, more efficient?
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How do you make them more successful creatively?
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And then there's also this really exciting side of how do you do things that have never before been done?
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And I think that's something we're really curious about creatively is how do you take vibe coding?
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How do you vibe code something that's never existed, right?
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Is it a, you know, instead of launching a site for a brand, do we launch a conversational kind of, you know, AI tool for a brand so that people could just have a conversation with them as opposed to going on a site?
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And I think that's going to come across lots of different brands.
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So we're thinking about how we show up in ways that have never been done.
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I think the big promise of AI for me is about personalization.
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As in, how do you think this incredible technology that can move so quickly and deliver responses, right, in terms of interaction so quickly and make it hyper-personalized, right?
00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:36.799
Like how do you feed it the data so that every brand has the opportunity to connect to Olivia in a personalized way, connect to Kaiser in a personalized way?
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:42.160
I think that's the power of AI from a brand building perspective, is like I've been waiting for that for years.
00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:43.920
Yeah, we've all been waiting for years, right?
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:46.799
We've all been like, brands are gonna be personalized, you know?
00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:49.680
And I think it we've never had the technology to do it.
00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:55.440
And I think I do think finally we have a technology that can deliver on that.
00:17:55.599 --> 00:18:04.000
I'm really curious personally, I'm really curious about personalization and how we leverage this tool to create brands that are living and breathing.
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:10.559
I always talk about this idea of leave living, breathing brands because I think that's what brands has that's how brands have to behave in this environment, right?
00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:16.240
They have to respond to culture, they've got to respond to you know shifts in economies and quickly, right?
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:17.839
You know, there's a blockade on oil.
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:19.279
How do you respond to that, right?
00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:21.359
Some pop star said something ridiculous.
00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:22.400
How do you respond to that?
00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:24.640
And brands are being responsive, right?
00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:29.279
But they no one's built like the OS for brand responsiveness.
00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:31.039
And I think that's about personalization.
00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:38.960
That's around cultural inputs, that's around societal inputs, and that's around like relevance from a brand perspective and showing up in the right places.
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.440
I think that's like the magic of where we're going.
00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.039
And I'm curious, that's kind of where my head's at long term.
00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:51.200
But of course, like in the short term, there's so many implications and applications that we're trying to leverage as well.
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:57.359
I think the additional thing I would add to that is the personalization, the thing I've been waiting for my entire career.
00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:04.000
Because my career, even though I was classically trained in marketing and brand, was actually in product interface design.
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:10.799
So I have been waiting for the day that we can do things with the interface to make the interface personalized.
00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:17.359
Like we open up Spotify, but there's two different views because it knows me, it knows you.
00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:23.200
And that's to me, that is something I've been waiting for for at least 10 years.
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:26.960
Because I had I had these ideas that I wanted to do on the interface.
00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:29.680
And engineering team would always be like, Olivia, we can't do that.
00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:30.240
We can't do that.
00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:31.599
I'm like, why not?
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:40.799
And now it's possible to speak to the fear a little bit of what you said about AI and where it can go if infinite knowledge exists.
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:42.400
I want to tap more into that.
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:51.359
But what I would say is I think that there's so much opportunity available to how we can use it and think about it differently.
00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:53.839
It opens up such a big box.
00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:58.720
We have clients who come to us now and want different things, need different things.
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:05.440
And what they're asking for is more than before because they can do more, because there's more capabilities.
00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:12.640
We can do more as an individual agency now because we have these tools and their budget stretches further.
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:19.519
So I think that there's this analogy of the Jurassic Park video, the movie, right?
00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:26.240
The the first one, the technology um wasn't as strong as the second one, the CGI, right?
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.279
But then eventually the second one, the CGI got stronger.
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:36.880
You would think that the movie would get smaller in compression time, but it actually was bigger because they just squeezed more in because they could do more.
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:38.400
And I think that's what we're doing now.
00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:43.599
We're just like AI is supposed to make us more efficient, more productive so that we can go have coffee.
00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:46.480
But I'm not having a break for coffee.
00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:50.240
I don't know if you feel like you have more space in the day.
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:51.920
I only feel like I have less.
00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:52.720
100%.
00:20:53.119 --> 00:21:00.319
I think that you're totally right about that, which is they've, you know, people have talked a lot about in history technological advances.
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:05.599
We view them in the context of our current state of being and our current process, right?
00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:08.799
And so we think of a car versus a horse, right?
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.440
I'm gonna get from point A to B to point B faster.
00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:14.160
So when I get there, I'll have more time, right?
00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:20.559
And I'll be able to, you know, spend those three hours that I saved on, you know, doing whatever.
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:22.240
But that's not how it works, right?
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:24.880
It just means that everything around us accelerates.
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:26.880
I think, you know, you're you're 100% right.
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:33.920
It's like everything around us accelerates, it just means that you're doing more in the same amount of time.
00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:49.519
And we're seeing that with brands as well, where, you know, we are adding kind of AI tooling to processes, or we are using different AI tools to improve outcomes or improve process.
00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:59.839
And it doesn't mean that all of a sudden our budgets get less lowered, or it doesn't mean that we have less, like we have shorter time to deliver the work, right?
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:05.519
It just means that we're doing more with the brief and we're doing more with the opportunity.
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:15.519
We're still doing 90, 80% of what we would normally do, but then we're adding a 20% or a 30% of value using and leveraging the technology.
00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:17.039
I totally agree with you.
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:24.720
I think that's probably because I'm an optimist and I want to think that like, well, I'll be doing, you know, like kind of all these exciting things in the future.
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:25.519
But who knows?
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:34.400
Listen, like I saw an article today, just not to be philosophical existential, but this is something that a question I've been asking for a long time is if AI does all the work, right?
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:39.359
What happens to the economy that supports all the product and all these companies, right?
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:54.319
Because if you fire, you know, a million people and replace them with AI, who's buying the Coca-Cola and the McDonald's and the Gucci bags and the, you know, blah, blah, blah.
00:22:54.480 --> 00:23:01.440
So the economy and capitalism, you know, will find a solution, I think, is maybe another optimistic perspective.
00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:06.720
But, you know, people are talking about universal incomes and um, you know, other solutions.
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:07.599
And who knows?
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:17.200
I saw today a proposition about like a robot tax that will be levied against AI companies and AI tools, and then that will benefit society at large.
00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:18.319
I mean, who knows?
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:24.720
Somehow, like as a society, we're sort of on the surface, you know, we're sort of allergic to this notion of socialism.
00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:31.279
But, you know, there is the reality that there socialism exists for large corporations, um, you know, and not for everyone else.
00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:37.039
And so maybe there will be a more uh just equitable system, you know, as a result of all this incredible technology.
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:38.240
And that's what we always hope for.
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:41.839
I that's what I always hope for in terms of like the optimism of technology.
00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:49.279
I know we've kind of gone into the AI portion quite a bit, but I I think it's so relevant right now because we're sitting in the middle of it.
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:51.839
You and I don't go a day without thinking about it.
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.119
What would you say is the ideal outcome?
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:57.920
What is your optimistic view of AI?
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:08.079
I think that I see a world where we redefine value around ideas and around the ability to connect.
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:10.160
And I think we're already in that place, right?
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:15.279
We are in a world where if you're a great creative, you're able to connect dots, right?
00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:20.480
You might be a social creator and you're just creating really interesting content for people.
00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:31.759
You might be a, you know, UX designer and you're figuring out really interesting ways for people to connect to, you know, um product and apps and, you know, interaction.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:39.920
You might be a, you know, campaign advertising art director, and you're figuring out really beautiful ways to tell stories, right?
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:44.799
I believe that we'll get to a place where we will continue to embrace that.
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:53.279
And I think that there will have to be more value placed in the idea than in the man hours that it takes to leverage the idea.
00:24:53.359 --> 00:25:01.680
So I think my hope is that there will be like a shift in value from idea and human process that isn't defined by hours.
00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:08.400
Like since kind of the beginning of the industrial age, everything's been sold in terms of human capability as hours, right?
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:14.480
If you're a lawyer, you know, you're like your bill$500,$1,000, whatever, an hour, right?
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:20.720
If you are a designer that's a junior designer, you bill$30, you know, doll,$50, whatever an hour, right?
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:21.920
$100 an hour.
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:26.880
I don't know, but we've always defined this metric of human hour and time.
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:32.240
And I think that we're gonna have to confront that on like a holistic level.
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:51.039
And I think there is a lot about personality in creativity, as in your story, the story you told me about like your background, your evolution, like designing mixtapes and my story that I told you about, like designing Nike ads and like photoshopping myself into stuff is part of our our lived experience is super rich.
00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:52.640
And I think there's a lot of value in that.
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:55.680
And I hope that we'll get to a place where we start to identify that.
00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:57.279
And maybe AI will help us.
00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:10.319
Maybe AI will help us identify like what is unique about Kaiser's perspective, what's unique about Olivia's perspective, and how do we not necessarily monetize that, but how do we give it value and how do we amplify it in really interesting and unique ways?
00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:16.240
And I hope that optimistically, AI will solve some of the larger challenges that we're facing, right, as a society.
00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:19.039
I think we've opened some Pandora's boxes.
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:25.599
I think AI is one Pandora's box, which is like no one knows what's going to happen if the AGI is achieved.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:27.279
What does that mean for humanity?
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:28.720
The other is like global warming.
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:34.240
We're facing like a crisis, you know, of kind of shifting environments across the globe, right?
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:41.200
We have this overarching crisis of nationalism in a world where we're all one family and we're all humans.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:46.160
And when you look at it from the astronauts going to the moon, it's just we're one big circle, right?
00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:47.440
And we see all these divides.
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:49.680
And we have to solve those problems long term.
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:52.799
And so hopefully AI can help us with that.
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:56.319
Um, and I see that as kind of like my hope for AI.
00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:02.559
But listen, I think technology in the past has rarely been used in positive ways.
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:07.839
It has been used mostly to benefit people from a wealth perspective, right?
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:16.640
So, like computers, the internet, all of those things, mobile technology, you know, cell phone services, all of those things have been used for commerce.
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:32.400
I don't know if my viewpoint of optimism is necessarily like it's probably naive in the sense that like the reality is we will find ways to monetize it, but I hope that we will continue to focus on ways to impact, you know, human human lives in positive ways.
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:33.119
Okay.
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:36.240
So I'm I'm also an optimist.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:49.039
And how I how I look at this because I feel like I can house how I think and control how I think, but I can't control AI, like what's happening with AI necessarily.
00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:56.640
I do think the optimistic version of myself sees this opening for people if they take it.
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:05.920
As in, like, you know, before we had Squarespace, not everyone could have a website, but then you have Squarespace, and now all of a sudden everyone who wants a website can easily build a website.
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:09.279
And I think that that's unlocking now with AI.
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:19.839
If you have an idea and you're a plumber and you want to go out there and you want to solve one of your own problems, you can create an interface, an app, and you can sell that.
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:27.039
Now, does that is that sustained over time as things shift and AI continues to get stronger?
00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:33.839
I can't say yes or no, but I think that right now we're at a very wonderful opening for those who choose to take it.
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:35.359
It's an exciting juncture.
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:40.799
And I think that you're right, it democratizes everything in the same way that we hoped it would.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:43.119
And I think that that is a reality.
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:47.359
It'll help, you know, benefit lives in many different ways and help people tell stories.
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:58.960
And I think that the difference between just AI as a technology is that not only can it build a site for someone who's a plumber, but it can also come up with a marketing strategy for them.
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:00.640
It can help them scale their business.
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:06.559
It can function as like Red Antler, it can function as McKinsey, it can function as, you know, if you know how to leverage it, right?
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:08.000
So I think that that's exciting.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:09.039
It can help you scale.
00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:15.759
So what I would say about what you were saying is it can help you scale if you use it right.
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:23.759
I also want to say that because, you know, you you and I, we focus a lot on iconic companies and creating iconic.
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:32.960
And what I look at AI and the LLMs, they're all it's trained on the version of work that you and I have both created, right?
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:38.960
But it's going to train on that information and it's going to give the median response.
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:46.000
So if you're looking to create like a social ad, a social asset, the output is going to only be the median.
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:50.400
Where iconic companies have always worked above that.
00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:55.039
They're looking to be disruptors, they're looking to create things that no one's seen before.
00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:58.480
And so you're going to have to up-level.
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:05.680
There's always going to be folks who can get by with mediocre because, you know, like the plumber doesn't need an iconic brand, for example.
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:09.920
But they can go out there and create something that works well for their industry.
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:14.880
But then there's always going to be iconic companies that want to be a disruption.
00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:19.839
They want to be disruptive, they want to be category-defining and own their space.
00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:26.720
And that requires a different level than you're going to be able to get from an output of an LLM.
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:32.160
And it as the models train and get stronger, of course, it's going to continue to evolve.
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:35.119
And that's the challenge that you and I will have.
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:40.960
And the also the opportunity and the fun is like we get to always constantly be up leveling.
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:42.079
Yeah, love that.
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:43.200
Yeah, I think you're right.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:50.880
I think, listen, I think I had like a lot of anxiety about AI like early on in the, you know, last year when there's so much happening.
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:52.559
And you know, it can be overwhelming.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:54.720
It's like every day there's a new, you know, update.
00:30:54.799 --> 00:31:02.960
And I think like social culture is built to antagonize, to create fear, to create a lot of noise, right?
00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:10.480
And I think that a lot of great work can happen using AI tools, but it also sucks in a lot of ways, right?
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:13.039
Like it just is not there in terms of capabilities.
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:15.440
And I don't know that it ever will completely get there.
00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:20.720
Like I think that there's so much in storytelling that is nuanced, that is detailed.
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:28.079
There's so much in brand design that is about, you know, the layers of craft and details that you put into brand design.
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:37.599
Some of that will merge probably with Figma updates over the coming year, because you know, we've been essentially training Figma to design layouts, you know, for a long time.
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:39.920
And I think it's merging more and more and more.
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:45.680
But I do think that you have to, as creatives and as business leaders, put the noise aside.
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:48.480
There's this thing I heard like about signal and noise.
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:59.440
I don't know if you've heard this term, but it's like this idea that within, you know, kind of like your ambition and your goal setting, there's a signal, which is what you want to work towards, right?
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:04.400
And that signal is clarity around purpose, objective, goals.
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:06.000
And it's usually one or two things.
00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:07.359
And then there's a lot of noise, right?
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:21.920
In your day-to-day, it's like, yes, I can go tomorrow and figure out how my team can build, you know, vibe coding sites, or I can figure out how my team builds better production for social assets, you know, it through art direction, right?
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.519
But a lot of that is noise, right?
00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:28.480
Like better people in terms of capital, resources, and talent will build those tools, right?
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:33.759
The signal is like, what do I want to do as a creative leader and what's my ambition for brands?
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:36.240
And I think that's sort of what I talked about at the start of the call.
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:41.279
And how do I continue to work towards that, leveraging all the great tools and all the great assets I have?
00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:46.480
And I think that as leaders, we clarify what we feel is our objective in all of this.
00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:51.119
I think you can find clarity in it, and I think it can be less overwhelming, right?
00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:58.079
Because I think there is a ton, there's just so much noise in this space, and it's really hard to identify where to put your focus.
00:32:58.400 --> 00:32:58.640
Yeah.
00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:00.160
No, I think that's absolutely true.
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:08.160
And I think the the leaders in this space, regardless of what category they're in, are truly going to understand that.
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:12.480
You have to know where to put your time because there's only so much time and energy.
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:18.240
So if you're not in alignment with your goals and your objectives and you're constantly saying no to things.
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:22.640
I mean, even as individuals, you know, you have to be able to do that for yourself too.
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:34.960
And I think that now with AI, you can jump in so quickly to build something, but if you don't have a clear understanding of the direction and the vision of what you're building, it can break really quickly.
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:39.440
And I think that's where, you know, I always say direction is the moat right now.
00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:39.599
Yeah.
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:41.839
Being really clear on the direction.
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:43.039
Yeah, I love that.
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:44.960
And I think we all have our motes, right?
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:58.720
It's like you're you might be better than other people at defining a direction, you know, and I might be better at other people at defining cultural relevance or predicting kind of future trends for brands and the ways they should work towards that.
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:03.279
I think we all have our moat, and I think that's really becomes more and more your superpowers.
00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:06.400
What's the thing, you know, that you can bring to the table?
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:12.480
Because I think it's, you know, we've been in this culture of generalist, as in you have to do a lot of different things really well.
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:18.719
I think the future is AI becomes the generalist because it will be able to do all those things really well.
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:24.559
And I think that it'll allow a lot of us to become more specialized in our focus, right?
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:29.599
Because AI will be able to tap into all these different spaces for us and execute for us.
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:34.480
I think maybe it creates more specialists or people who are like, this is my one focus.
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:35.760
You know, what's my moat?
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:37.119
How do I focus on that?
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:41.280
I'm a generalist for the most part, so that's kind of like an interesting world for me.
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:48.239
But I think that, you know, yeah, the maybe the generalists become people who really understand how to connect the different tools in the right ways.
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:52.639
Um, but yeah, I think we all have to define our moat and we have to define how we make that relevant.
00:34:52.880 --> 00:35:00.000
Let's switch gears a little bit because uh we we covered a lot of AI, which is so relevant.
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:10.239
But I am curious, just you know, just setting the stage about what you've learned over time about bringing in a company and seeing them scale.
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:20.719
And like, what could folks do that don't have maybe access to a a red antler budget do to help their company scale successfully in terms of brand?
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:21.280
Yeah.
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:23.920
The hardest thing, as you know, is scaling a brand.
00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:29.599
I think that brand scale is about defining additional touch points to expand into.
00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:37.280
And what I mean by that is I think when you start with a brand, you can connect in one way to one set of consumers, right?
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:39.519
And you're like introducing yourself.
00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:46.079
So there's like a huge difference between like introduction and expansion, which is about lots of conversations.
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:52.719
So it's like if you go to a party, right, and you introduce yourself to the host, right?
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:53.840
That's an introduction.
00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:57.760
And they're like, hey, Olivia's amazing, she's so cool, right?
00:35:57.920 --> 00:36:03.920
If you stop there, you don't really scale your ability to connect to all the people in that space, right?
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:09.199
And I think scale is about amplifying connection through experience, right?
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:21.679
And that's about really like being strong in terms of your foundation of what you stand for and who you are as a brand, but then finding ways to interpret that in different spaces.
00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:34.400
And I think what you can do to scale, and if we talk about just the tools that are available to you, I think social media is probably like the most valuable tool in terms of scale and being able to have conversation with lots of people.
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:41.519
I think social media is one of the most exciting places for brand building at the moment because I think you can really express your personality.
00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:45.519
You can have other people express that personality through, you know, influence.
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:49.440
And you can really kind of connect to lots of different consumers in different ways.
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:53.679
And there are different social media networks that they're appropriate for different types of connections.
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:58.960
That is sort of low-hanging fruit for scale, is you start to tap into these networks, right?
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:03.599
And you start to really translate your brand in the right ways in those spaces.
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:12.079
I think the second thing around scale is really bringing in expertise in the different spaces that you need to connect to, right?
00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:16.320
And expertise could be like at a very low level, could be like an influencer, right?
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:19.920
Who really understands your audience better than maybe you do, right?
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:37.039
So that's like the low-level expertise that you can bring in as you kind of scale and as you think of defining expertise, you can bring in agencies like Red Antler, you can bring in agencies yours into the mix to have those conversations to really amplify the ways that you're connecting, right?
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:40.159
And I think that that is the way that I think about scale.
00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:45.280
It's about continuing to like expand tentacles into new experiences.
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:52.239
And I think the most important thing you can do in that process is to test and learn very quickly.
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:59.280
I always talk to brands, whether they're like tiny brands or huge brands, about this notion of testing and learning in real time.
00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:02.239
And I think that's how you become a living, breathing brand, right?
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:05.360
Is you go out and you try something, right?
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:14.639
And you fail or you're successful in that space and you learn from that and you evolve the brand in terms of the experience of the brand, not the core of the brand, right?
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:17.920
And you go, hey, we tried this, that works, or that didn't work.
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:18.960
Let's keep going, right?
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:19.920
Or we tried that.
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:26.719
And I think the more you test and learn, the better your ability is to like connect to multiple experiences.
00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:29.280
Try doing an experiential pop-up, right?
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:31.039
Try creating an app, right?
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:38.079
Try creating, you know, a new way for people to interact with your brand on the site, on your site.
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:41.199
And so I think these opportunities to test and learn are really important.
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:47.199
I think you've got to like really become an expert in like the world of what brands are doing in your space.
00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:52.320
What I mean by that is I'm an obsessive expert around what's happening in the world of brand building.
00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:56.800
And I'm always trying to figure out what are people doing that's successful?
00:38:56.960 --> 00:38:59.599
And think about those analogies for your brand, right?
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.519
Are they doing things that are successful?
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:03.039
Can that apply to my brand?
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:04.559
And it may be unexpected.
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:10.400
And we try to bring in unexpected experiences into brand building so that you stand out from the marketplace, right?
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:20.639
Because if everyone else is doing retail pop-ups and instead you're doing really interesting things on stage at Coachella with a certain artist, right?
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:25.760
Or you're doing really interesting things with your website or an AI chatbot or whatever it might be.
00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:32.559
Like you've got to, I think part of it is a brand being successful is about differentiation and standing out in the marketplace.
00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:43.920
So you've got to come up with ways that you are showing up, you know, you're taking the baseline of what everyone's doing, but you're also showing up in new, exciting ways because if you don't, you become everyone else, right?
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:45.360
And you become irrelevant.
00:39:45.679 --> 00:40:01.760
I think there is like that maybe fear of irrelevance, but I also want to specify that there are brands, lifestyle brands, you know, that don't necessarily need to operate at that level of always iconic brand and category defining.
00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:19.440
If you have ambitions as a founder and you want your company to, you know, be a unicorn, that's a whole nother energy, requires a whole nother level of effort from the individual versus someone who's just saying, you know, I really just want to take care of my family and create my own space in my own company.
00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:21.440
And I think they can both exist.
00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:27.760
And obviously, who we serve, our portfolio of clients, is in the I want to be category defining.
00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:29.760
That's why they're they're working with us.
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:34.320
But I just want to specify that there is a there is that alternative um perspective.
00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:45.840
Yeah, there are brands who have been around for a hundred years and they do the same thing every single day and have social media and they're like, you know, but like not everyone can be that type of brand, right?
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:58.880
And so I think if you have an incredible audience who loves your product or loves your brand, you know, sometimes it's just as simple as building on that audience and continuing to build that audience in the same way you've always done it, right?
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:02.880
So it can be quite one-dimensional if, you know, that's the right approach.
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:06.559
But again, even that is doing something different, right?
00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:12.960
It may seem like you're doing something that's not different, but that is differentiated in the marketing landscape, right?
00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:22.639
The fact if you're a brand that does the same thing over and over again and doesn't try to do new things and shows up in the same way, that is differentiated in the marketplace.
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:28.960
So embrace your uniqueness and embrace kind of your special sauce, which could be brand.
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:33.920
It could also be marketing tactic, it could also be kind of audience, right?
00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:39.360
Sometimes you have a really unique audience and you want to like really talk to that audience and continue to grow that audience.
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:42.639
I think a lot of brands in the food hospitality space are like that.
00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:47.760
You know, I went to this hundred-year-old pizzeria in New Haven the other day and they just they serve pizza.
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:50.880
There's a line around the block and they've done it for a hundred years, right?
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:52.480
And it's good pizza, right?
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:55.599
They don't need social media because they're a hundred years old.
00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:59.920
You know, In and Out is another one I love to talk about because I used to work there in college, but same thing.
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:01.440
The same secret menu.
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:02.559
Hi, how are you?
00:42:02.719 --> 00:42:08.320
It's all the frying machines are still where the fryers are, the grills are where the grills are, the buns are the same.
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:10.000
Like it's been that way since the beginning.
00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:10.480
Yeah.
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:19.679
And those brands are fortunate to have a great following of enthusiasts and fans and you know, people who go out there and advocate for them, right?
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:21.199
Most brands don't have that.
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:26.639
You don't have people going out and saying you've got to go try X, Y, and Z, right?
00:42:26.719 --> 00:42:30.559
And they are, so you have to go out and inquire that audience yourself.
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:33.119
And there are ways to do that.
00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:39.360
And I'm a big believer in experts and trusting experts when you're growing a brand.
00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:46.480
You know, if we talk about the food space, there's a brand that opened up in Soho in my neighborhood the other day that is frozen yogurt.
00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:53.039
And frozen yogurt is now a new trend in New York because these trends in hospitality go in cycles, right?
00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:55.199
So it was pink berry, it was a huge thing.
00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:57.840
People forgot about it, no one cares about frozen yogurt.
00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:01.519
And then all of a sudden there's like a new brand that's like, hey, we're doing frozen yogurt, right?
00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:07.920
But it connects to the evolution of that trend, which is everyone wants great protein, they want healthy desserts, right?
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:12.800
So it's a new audience and they're introducing frozen yogurt to this audience in a new way.
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:15.199
And their tactics are all social, right?
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:19.679
Like they've got influencer and they have lines around the block to get into frozen yogurt.
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:25.199
And I was walking by and I was like, I wouldn't wait in a line around the block to go and try like frozen yogurt.
00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:27.039
Like, this is ridiculous, you know?
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:39.679
But they have mastered the expertise that they need to attract the audience that they're trying to attract, which is a new consumer who's not familiar with frozen yogurt in the same way I am as an old man.
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:47.119
They're just like, we're trying to attract a new consumer, and we know how to attract, we've like found someone who really understands how to get to that consumer.
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:49.679
And the proof is in the line around the block, right?
00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:54.880
There are lots of people who open new hospitality experiences in New York, and there's no, there are no lines around the block.
00:43:55.039 --> 00:43:59.760
So there's something about expertise that is really relevant, right?
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.159
And you have to understand your space and you've got to understand your consumer.
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:11.440
And you've got to really dig in on, you know, what it means to get and attract that consumer, right?
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:12.400
And what it takes.
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:23.039
And look at the brands that are successful, not just in your category, but outside of the category and say, if it's a social, if the play is social, let's find expertise in the social place, right?
00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:23.920
In the social space.
00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:27.519
If this play is experiential, let's find expertise in the experiment.
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:35.679
If the play is digital transformation, let's find experts like you who can like really guide them through kind of, you know, building products and apps.
00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:40.719
And so you've got to find expertise and you can scale that expertise over time.
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:55.519
It doesn't mean that you've got to go out and hire the largest, you know, kind of digital agency in the world, but hire, you know, someone who will come in and help consult and help guide you, you know, at least in the early days of building the brand and the foundation of how you scale.
00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:56.320
I like that.
00:44:56.400 --> 00:45:00.480
You just sold our you sold us to listening.
00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:02.719
Trust the experts.
00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:04.159
Trust me and Olivia.
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:06.960
Olivia and I are people you should call.
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:10.880
Uh Kaiser, this has been such a wonderful conversation.
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:15.440
And I look forward to, you know, continuing this relationship.
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:20.639
Uh, this has been, if there's anything else you would like to cover as part of the podcast, let us know.
00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:24.239
If there's any highlights or questions you want to ask me, more than happy.
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:26.559
But if not, we will we will wrap here.
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:30.880
I am so, so honored to be uh having this conversation with you.
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:36.800
I'm such a like fan of yours and all the great thought leadership and like conversations you're putting out to the world.
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:40.480
Thank you for inviting me and thank you for having me in this conversation.
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:42.960
And I look forward to, of course, always chatting.
00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:44.079
Thank you, Kaiser.
00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:45.679
Thanks for being on Building Iconic.
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:46.559
Talk soon.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.919
Being successful is about differentiation and standing out in the marketplace.
00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:11.599
You're taking the baseline of what everyone's doing, but you're also showing up in new exciting ways because if you don't, you become everyone else, right?
00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:13.439
And you become irrelevant.
00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:20.879
Real quick, just give me your personal like journey.
00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:21.359
Yeah.
00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:23.679
You know, like where did you fall in love with design?
00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:24.879
How did you come into it?
00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:25.440
Yeah.
00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:28.399
So it's a long journey, but I'll try to give you real quick.
00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:32.240
My dad is a lawyer and my mom's a painter.
00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:46.399
And I always start the story that way because I think in my life and in my upbringing, I was exposed to really incredible storytelling around vision and the detail of history and research that all of human rights law is about, right?
00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:48.159
And my dad was a human rights lawyer.
00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:50.399
And he was just like an incredible storyteller.
00:00:50.560 --> 00:01:02.240
And I always would sit at his feet as a kid and listen to him tell these amazing stories about not just the past, but how the past could be made relevant for the future and how society and culture needed to change.
00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:07.680
And there's like an analytical side of that and a really strategic side of that that I've always had.
00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:10.000
And but I've also always loved craft.
00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:11.040
My mom's a painter.
00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:16.400
I grew up around a lot of artists who are sculptors and you know, makers of different forms.
00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:24.959
And I always was in the studio with her, also drawing at a very early age and sketching things and making ceramics and making sculptures and learning from her.
00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:26.799
And I've always had these two sides.
00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:30.400
And I think in my early years, I was like, am I one thing?
00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:31.920
Am I more interested in this?
00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:33.200
Am I more interested in that?
00:01:33.280 --> 00:01:35.280
And I think the truth is I'm both.
00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:40.560
And I think that's what design and great creativity at commerce kind of scale is about, right?
00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:53.200
It's about taking incredible strategy and vision and connecting that to really specific forms of craft and specific forms of interpretation, whether they be visual or through storytelling narratives or other devices.
00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:55.439
And so I think it's like the perfect confluence.
00:01:55.519 --> 00:02:03.519
I discovered design sort of as a kid doing photography in the back in the day, like in the dark room and learning how to make photos.
00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:07.920
And then I discovered Photoshop in the early years of computer kind of technology.
00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:13.520
And I started making my own ads, like putting myself in Nike ads because I wanted to be a basketball player.
00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:18.240
And I loved, you know, the Michael Jordans and the, you know, Dennis Rodmans of the world.
00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:22.960
And so I started using Photoshop to create this world mostly for fun, right?
00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:24.960
And just to kind of punk my friends.
00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:36.639
But it was really this teenage expression of creating worlds and narratives that allowed me to use these really great tools that I was just discovering with photography, Photoshop, typography, and all the systems of design.
00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:49.199
And so that was my early discovery of design was really just finding out that I could take incredible tech tools and start to use those to tell amazing stories, both from a craft perspective and from a narrative perspective.
00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:50.560
That's how I fell in love with it.
00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:54.800
And um my teachers, fortunately, in high school were able to say, like, that's design.
00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:58.240
And I went to design school and fell in love with it even further.
00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:00.240
And uh that's what I'm doing today.
00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:01.840
It's an incredible story.
00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:05.599
I love, I love that that that's where the origins are.
00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:12.639
And I often find it that incredible designers are really born inherently loving design.
00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:12.960
Yeah.
00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:15.039
It's like incepted into us or something.
00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:16.400
Yeah, I agree.
00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:17.759
It's like found along the way.
00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:19.360
How did you discover design?
00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:23.919
I discovered design in my early days as well.
00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:28.319
I used to make mixed CDs back when that was a thing.
00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:38.719
And I would put all the songs on the CD and I would design the little label and I would hand those over to family and friends, and I would sketch a whole lot when I was a kid.
00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:40.879
I would draw as much as I could.
00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:42.479
I loved art as well.
00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:47.280
I classified myself as an artist, but I didn't think there was money in it.
00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:51.680
So then I removed that classification for myself for a majority of my career until recently.
00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:55.520
So I was like, oh, I know, you know, the starving artist concept, right?
00:03:55.680 --> 00:04:01.039
But I went through school not knowing exactly how to what I wanted before I went to college.
00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:04.479
I was like, what can I do with my love of design?
00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:13.039
And I first I was like architecture, and then I discovered communication design, and that's what I actually went to school and classically trained in.
00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:15.599
And I fell in love with it.
00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:19.759
I also considered interior design, but I knew I wanted to do something with design.
00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:22.560
Neither one of my parents are in design either.
00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:28.240
But I think my dad taught me how to think and how to critique.
00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:36.000
Like he is, you know, it was hard as an upbringer because he's he's always focused on making things the best it can be.
00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:40.160
And even with me, he was always like, like he'll call me today if I send him a photo.
00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:42.240
He's like, Why is the camera lens blurry?
00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:54.480
Or like he's but he taught me how to look at something and really fine-tune and be, I don't want to call it pessimistic about something, but maybe optimistic about the ideal perspective it could have.
00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:55.360
So cool.
00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:58.160
Yeah, I was a similar in a similar space.
00:04:58.240 --> 00:05:01.839
Like I was curious about architecture and still am.
00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:07.680
And um I've been was always curious about industrial design and the ways that you build physical objects.
00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:10.000
But yeah, I think design is everywhere.
00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:12.240
And I think I have this great love for it.
00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:18.399
It isn't just graphic design or experience design or whatever it might be, like in the spaces that we're working on.
00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:24.160
I think that in that curiosity of other spaces of design has also been something I've like always pursued.
00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:27.839
Tell us how did you get into what you do now?
00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:28.319
Yeah.
00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:31.839
Like from that childhood, what was the journey into what you're doing now?
00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:32.399
Yeah.
00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:45.759
So I started applying to colleges, taking that kind of premise of okay, design is a thing, which I discovered, you know, and these great tools of technology that I could start to use.
00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:48.000
And I went to college for design.
00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:53.040
So I knew once I discovered kind of the space, I was like, who gonna do design?
00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:59.279
And I was like bouncing back and forth between graphic design and in my mind, I was like, industrial design might be something I explore.
00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:01.040
I was always curious about physical objects.
00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:02.399
So I studied graphic design.
00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:04.240
I moved to New York City.
00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:06.959
I studied in a college upstate New York.
00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:11.040
I moved to New York City and fell in love with New York City immediately.
00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:16.639
I arrived at like Grand Central Station, and I literally was this is the most incredible place on earth.
00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:19.920
There's this amazing energy here, constantly.
00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:25.600
And there's all this like influx of different cultures and experiences into my life in real time.
00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:28.720
And back then, this is pre-social media era.
00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:29.920
I'm like an old man.
00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:33.120
So everything that you discovered was real, it was tangible, right?
00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:36.240
And it was so much about pursuing curiosity.
00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:43.839
Life was about pursuing curiosity, much more back then, in the sense that if I met someone, they would be like, hey, come to this art opening I'm having.
00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:51.199
And I would go to that art opening, and then eventually we would end up at a bar, and then we eventually we'd go out to some cool neighborhood that I never discovered.
00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:56.879
You know, at the time it was meat packing, which back then was there was nothing in the meat packing except like a couple interesting clubs.
00:06:56.959 --> 00:07:00.480
And so you could kind of follow this thread of curiosity.
00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:11.439
And I will say that that kind of built the foundation for my approach to design and my career as a whole is I was trained through New York culture to kind of follow the thread of curiosity.
00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:15.199
So I started working as a graphic designer at a design shop.
00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:21.040
And then I was like really curious about art direction and what that could look like and telling stories through visuals.
00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:24.399
And I started working at an ad agency as an art director.
00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:26.720
And then I was really curious about the built environment.
00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:28.639
How do you build experiences for people?
00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:30.399
And experiential was becoming a thing.
00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:37.839
So I kind of jumped into that and started building experiential platforms and activations and pop-ups and like building things for the built environment.
00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:40.720
And then apps and like web was big.
00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:49.120
And I kind of followed my curiosity into like interactive design and experience design and how do you build really kind of great kind of interactions, right?
00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:55.120
And how do you get people to follow a story through a thread and through a line on a tiny phone or on screen?
00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:56.720
And that was such a fascinating thing.
00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:07.920
So I just kind of like followed these incredible curiosities that led me from one place to another in the world of marketing creativity and design at large.
00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:24.240
And in the past, like current kind of era of my career, I was at Publicis where I led a team across design, strategic creativity across specific brands like Crocs, Delta, Walmart, LVMH32 Maisons.
00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:26.319
I was really working at scale of brands.
00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:37.039
And then I helped set up what's called the Unicorn Labs at Digitas and Publicist, which is an innovation incubator internally that worked on AI and augmented reality and gaming experiences.
00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:49.519
So, in the same way that I was sort of as a kid curious about technology through Photoshop, I've always maintained that curiosity and like I was really excited about emerging technology and the implications of that emerging technology.
00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:57.360
And so prior to Red Antler, I was leading that kind of holistic thinking around brand at a huge agency.
00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:02.960
Like Publicys is 100,000 people, Digitas is 1,500 people, my team was 100 people.
00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:04.879
It was large scaling, right?
00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:10.080
And I worked across different agencies within Publicys and this model that they have called the Power of One.
00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:16.159
And what was really interesting there was that I was moving the needle on brands 5%, right?
00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:17.679
10% every year.
00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:24.879
And what was really exciting and appealing about Red Antler in this opportunity was the ability to move a brand from like zero to nothing.
00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:26.080
It's like what you were talking about.
00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:32.480
Brands come to us at Red Antler, they have an idea or the start of an idea, and we help make it real from the ground up.
00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:48.799
And all of this incredible experience that I have and all these great curiosity that I've had across my career, I think is really relevant to brand building now because the most important places for brands now are no longer just like the symbol or the word mark or the interface or the experience design.
00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:49.759
It's everything, right?
00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:52.480
It's like, how do you make brands relevant in social media?
00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:56.559
How do you make them relevant in experiential and retail and the physical environment?
00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:15.600
And so, in an odd way, like all of my collective experiences have led me to this point where I think that my background is almost perfectly suited for the environment that we're in as brands today, which is an environment that requires a breadth of knowledge across lots of different disciplines and the ability to connect those dots, right?
00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:17.120
And I think that just comes with time.
00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:26.559
In an odd way, all of these great curiosities have led me to a place where I'm a generalist with a lot of expertise across a lot of different disciplines.
00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:36.639
And I think fortunately, I'm able to kind of connect dots, I think, in a really interesting way for brands, both in the startup space and then of course into the enterprise space.
00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:41.279
So that's how kind of I ended up at Red Antler and how I ended up doing what I'm doing today.
00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:44.480
I want to dive into some of that a little bit more.
00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:56.240
And but I have to just say that when you're talking about the energy of following the adventure and the excitement and the innovation and the technology.
00:10:56.480 --> 00:11:01.440
Now we have to talk about AI because I feel like it's that same thing.
00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:05.519
Last night I literally almost didn't sleep because I was vibe coding.
00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:08.159
And I like was so excited about it.
00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:10.080
Like it What were you vibe coding?
00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:10.799
I want to know.
00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:12.399
Okay, okay, okay.
00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:14.720
You want to know what I'm vibe coding?
00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:16.080
Is everything.
00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:18.960
Like I've opened the box and I can't stop, Kaiser.
00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:20.480
I like literally can't stop.
00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:26.480
Okay, so we vibe coded most recently like our own task management system.
00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:30.559
And I was using a tool called Bonsai, and it just didn't fit anymore.
00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:32.159
It's like this is not working.
00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:36.960
And before that, we were on other task management systems like Asana.
00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:41.759
We tried using Slack, and there just nothing seemed to fit the way we work.
00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:47.360
And it was just this need that I had, and I such a huge frustration of a pain point.
00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:50.399
And I kept talking to my husband about it over and over and over again.
00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:55.919
He's like, we have to solve this for you because you're driving me nuts complaining about it all the time.
00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:59.360
So literally over the weekend, vibe coded the tool.
00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:02.639
The team is using it now, and it's incredible.
00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:05.120
Like they're everyone's like, oh, it's so much better.
00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:06.639
That was the thing I vibe coded.
00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:21.120
And then the other thing I vibe coded, which I will hopefully get to share with you, is a podcast platform that allows me to vet and discover new podcast guests and send them the agenda, which you asked me for before this call.
00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:28.159
But ideally, what's gonna happen is I'm gonna be able to send you a little link and it's gonna say, This is what Olivia's gonna cover with you today.
00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:32.480
And here's if you want to add anything to it, you should add here and put here.
00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:35.440
So that's what I'm personally vibe coding right now.
00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:36.159
I love that.
00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:37.039
I can't wait to see it.
00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:39.279
And I want to hear more about all the things you're building.
00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:46.639
I think right now, because I follow that energy too that you're talking about, I like following your excitement.
00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:49.919
And there's this energy in me right now to keep following it.
00:12:50.000 --> 00:13:02.240
And I think I it won't always be this much energy, but it literally is like the inception of ideas came from like, I don't even know where they came, but all at once, all of my problems can be solved.
00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:05.039
And now I'm like, I must create the tools to solve them.
00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:06.480
And now I can.
00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:09.039
And so I'm like, I want to get it done.
00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:14.240
So I'm I have set of things I'm gonna do, and um, I'm very, very excited about it.
00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:14.960
I love it.
00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:15.759
That's so cool.
00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:16.080
Yeah.
00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:20.080
Yeah, I think we're in an era where the tools are so powerful.
00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:22.879
And if you have a great idea, you can make it happen.
00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:29.600
And I think it's like the gold rush, it feels like it's like everyone wants to do something, right?
00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:37.120
And I think what's what's really crazy about it all as well, though, is that it's this gold rush at the moment, right?
00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:42.320
Because it's so valuable in that not everyone understands how to use the tools, right?
00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:51.600
But I think the scary thing in terms of just staying up late at night, also, is that you know what happens when there's infinite gold, right?
00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:54.799
You know, gold is only valuable in its scarcity.
00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:59.759
And what happens when everyone has access to unlimited gold, right?
00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:01.600
I think that's like a really interesting thing.
00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:07.919
What happens when everyone has access to unlimited intelligence that can move at scale, at speed?
00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:11.360
Where does the value shift to and what does value become?
00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:16.639
And I think those are kind of questions, existential questions we're all asking as an industry.
00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:22.480
I think on our end as an agency, we're obviously caught up in the gold rush of it all.
00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:30.799
But I think we are also cognizant of the value in creativity and an incredible strategy.
00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:35.360
And I think that so much of creativity is about experimentation.
00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:40.000
And like you said, you're up all night and you're experimenting, you're building new things, right?
00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:42.799
And I think that that is the creative edge, right?
00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:54.480
You have this incredible creative edge because you're able to take new things and form them into, you know, your kind of vision for what something should be or what something should become.
00:14:54.639 --> 00:15:01.600
And I think that's a really exciting kind of very human capability that I think we really love to focus on.
00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:05.679
I think we're really kind of curious about what how we define that value.
00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:08.000
I think that's what everyone's thinking about at the moment.
00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:13.279
I think on our end, in terms of AI and this curiosity for what's next, we're doing a lot of the same stuff.
00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:16.080
We're having a hackathon with the team.
00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:27.039
We're thinking about like what is the OS of Red Antler in terms of the AI operating system that helps empower all the like back-end tools of everything that we do on the operation side, right?
00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:40.399
And then we're thinking a lot about how we can become a consultant and an advisor to the brands that we work on in the same way that we've leveraged Photoshop and you know, Illustrator in the past and Figma and all these great tools.
00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:51.279
How do we become the agency of kind of you know, of record for brands who want to really like think about how they evolve themselves into a space leveraging that technology as well?
00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:56.879
So we're thinking a lot about building custom processes for brands, custom tools for brands.
00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:03.279
We're working with like McKinsey, as I said on the early part of this call, and they have this incredible publishing platform.
00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:12.879
Like McKinsey is one of the leaders in terms of publishing great business thought case studies, thought leadership articles, like advisory kind of research papers.
00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:18.720
And people turn to McKinsey, of course, for those insights, both as consultants and just more broadly on McKinsey.com.
00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:26.799
We're working with them to think about like how we leverage these great tools to really accelerate that and to really get that into a really compelling place as a publisher.
00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:28.080
And that's about production, right?
00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:34.559
That's about taking information, putting it out into the world in a way that feels really exciting and really compelling.
00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:40.799
I think there's the back end of it, which is the production side, which is how do you make things faster, more efficient?
00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:43.360
How do you make them more successful creatively?
00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:48.639
And then there's also this really exciting side of how do you do things that have never before been done?
00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:53.120
And I think that's something we're really curious about creatively is how do you take vibe coding?
00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:56.240
How do you vibe code something that's never existed, right?
00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:07.839
Is it a, you know, instead of launching a site for a brand, do we launch a conversational kind of, you know, AI tool for a brand so that people could just have a conversation with them as opposed to going on a site?
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.240
And I think that's going to come across lots of different brands.
00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:13.519
So we're thinking about how we show up in ways that have never been done.
00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:17.279
I think the big promise of AI for me is about personalization.
00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:28.160
As in, how do you think this incredible technology that can move so quickly and deliver responses, right, in terms of interaction so quickly and make it hyper-personalized, right?
00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:36.799
Like how do you feed it the data so that every brand has the opportunity to connect to Olivia in a personalized way, connect to Kaiser in a personalized way?
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:42.160
I think that's the power of AI from a brand building perspective, is like I've been waiting for that for years.
00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:43.920
Yeah, we've all been waiting for years, right?
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:46.799
We've all been like, brands are gonna be personalized, you know?
00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:49.680
And I think it we've never had the technology to do it.
00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:55.440
And I think I do think finally we have a technology that can deliver on that.
00:17:55.599 --> 00:18:04.000
I'm really curious personally, I'm really curious about personalization and how we leverage this tool to create brands that are living and breathing.
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:10.559
I always talk about this idea of leave living, breathing brands because I think that's what brands has that's how brands have to behave in this environment, right?
00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:16.240
They have to respond to culture, they've got to respond to you know shifts in economies and quickly, right?
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:17.839
You know, there's a blockade on oil.
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:19.279
How do you respond to that, right?
00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:21.359
Some pop star said something ridiculous.
00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:22.400
How do you respond to that?
00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:24.640
And brands are being responsive, right?
00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:29.279
But they no one's built like the OS for brand responsiveness.
00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:31.039
And I think that's about personalization.
00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:38.960
That's around cultural inputs, that's around societal inputs, and that's around like relevance from a brand perspective and showing up in the right places.
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.440
I think that's like the magic of where we're going.
00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.039
And I'm curious, that's kind of where my head's at long term.
00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:51.200
But of course, like in the short term, there's so many implications and applications that we're trying to leverage as well.
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:57.359
I think the additional thing I would add to that is the personalization, the thing I've been waiting for my entire career.
00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:04.000
Because my career, even though I was classically trained in marketing and brand, was actually in product interface design.
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:10.799
So I have been waiting for the day that we can do things with the interface to make the interface personalized.
00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:17.359
Like we open up Spotify, but there's two different views because it knows me, it knows you.
00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:23.200
And that's to me, that is something I've been waiting for for at least 10 years.
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:26.960
Because I had I had these ideas that I wanted to do on the interface.
00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:29.680
And engineering team would always be like, Olivia, we can't do that.
00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:30.240
We can't do that.
00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:31.599
I'm like, why not?
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:40.799
And now it's possible to speak to the fear a little bit of what you said about AI and where it can go if infinite knowledge exists.
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:42.400
I want to tap more into that.
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:51.359
But what I would say is I think that there's so much opportunity available to how we can use it and think about it differently.
00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:53.839
It opens up such a big box.
00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:58.720
We have clients who come to us now and want different things, need different things.
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:05.440
And what they're asking for is more than before because they can do more, because there's more capabilities.
00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:12.640
We can do more as an individual agency now because we have these tools and their budget stretches further.
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:19.519
So I think that there's this analogy of the Jurassic Park video, the movie, right?
00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:26.240
The the first one, the technology um wasn't as strong as the second one, the CGI, right?
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.279
But then eventually the second one, the CGI got stronger.
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:36.880
You would think that the movie would get smaller in compression time, but it actually was bigger because they just squeezed more in because they could do more.
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:38.400
And I think that's what we're doing now.
00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:43.599
We're just like AI is supposed to make us more efficient, more productive so that we can go have coffee.
00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:46.480
But I'm not having a break for coffee.
00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:50.240
I don't know if you feel like you have more space in the day.
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:51.920
I only feel like I have less.
00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:52.720
100%.
00:20:53.119 --> 00:21:00.319
I think that you're totally right about that, which is they've, you know, people have talked a lot about in history technological advances.
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:05.599
We view them in the context of our current state of being and our current process, right?
00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:08.799
And so we think of a car versus a horse, right?
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.440
I'm gonna get from point A to B to point B faster.
00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:14.160
So when I get there, I'll have more time, right?
00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:20.559
And I'll be able to, you know, spend those three hours that I saved on, you know, doing whatever.
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:22.240
But that's not how it works, right?
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:24.880
It just means that everything around us accelerates.
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:26.880
I think, you know, you're you're 100% right.
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:33.920
It's like everything around us accelerates, it just means that you're doing more in the same amount of time.
00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:49.519
And we're seeing that with brands as well, where, you know, we are adding kind of AI tooling to processes, or we are using different AI tools to improve outcomes or improve process.
00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:59.839
And it doesn't mean that all of a sudden our budgets get less lowered, or it doesn't mean that we have less, like we have shorter time to deliver the work, right?
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:05.519
It just means that we're doing more with the brief and we're doing more with the opportunity.
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:15.519
We're still doing 90, 80% of what we would normally do, but then we're adding a 20% or a 30% of value using and leveraging the technology.
00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:17.039
I totally agree with you.
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:24.720
I think that's probably because I'm an optimist and I want to think that like, well, I'll be doing, you know, like kind of all these exciting things in the future.
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:25.519
But who knows?
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:34.400
Listen, like I saw an article today, just not to be philosophical existential, but this is something that a question I've been asking for a long time is if AI does all the work, right?
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:39.359
What happens to the economy that supports all the product and all these companies, right?
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:54.319
Because if you fire, you know, a million people and replace them with AI, who's buying the Coca-Cola and the McDonald's and the Gucci bags and the, you know, blah, blah, blah.
00:22:54.480 --> 00:23:01.440
So the economy and capitalism, you know, will find a solution, I think, is maybe another optimistic perspective.
00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:06.720
But, you know, people are talking about universal incomes and um, you know, other solutions.
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:07.599
And who knows?
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:17.200
I saw today a proposition about like a robot tax that will be levied against AI companies and AI tools, and then that will benefit society at large.
00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:18.319
I mean, who knows?
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:24.720
Somehow, like as a society, we're sort of on the surface, you know, we're sort of allergic to this notion of socialism.
00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:31.279
But, you know, there is the reality that there socialism exists for large corporations, um, you know, and not for everyone else.
00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:37.039
And so maybe there will be a more uh just equitable system, you know, as a result of all this incredible technology.
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:38.240
And that's what we always hope for.
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:41.839
I that's what I always hope for in terms of like the optimism of technology.
00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:49.279
I know we've kind of gone into the AI portion quite a bit, but I I think it's so relevant right now because we're sitting in the middle of it.
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:51.839
You and I don't go a day without thinking about it.
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.119
What would you say is the ideal outcome?
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:57.920
What is your optimistic view of AI?
00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:08.079
I think that I see a world where we redefine value around ideas and around the ability to connect.
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:10.160
And I think we're already in that place, right?
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:15.279
We are in a world where if you're a great creative, you're able to connect dots, right?
00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:20.480
You might be a social creator and you're just creating really interesting content for people.
00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:31.759
You might be a, you know, UX designer and you're figuring out really interesting ways for people to connect to, you know, um product and apps and, you know, interaction.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:39.920
You might be a, you know, campaign advertising art director, and you're figuring out really beautiful ways to tell stories, right?
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:44.799
I believe that we'll get to a place where we will continue to embrace that.
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:53.279
And I think that there will have to be more value placed in the idea than in the man hours that it takes to leverage the idea.
00:24:53.359 --> 00:25:01.680
So I think my hope is that there will be like a shift in value from idea and human process that isn't defined by hours.
00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:08.400
Like since kind of the beginning of the industrial age, everything's been sold in terms of human capability as hours, right?
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:14.480
If you're a lawyer, you know, you're like your bill$500,$1,000, whatever, an hour, right?
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:20.720
If you are a designer that's a junior designer, you bill$30, you know, doll,$50, whatever an hour, right?
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:21.920
$100 an hour.
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:26.880
I don't know, but we've always defined this metric of human hour and time.
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:32.240
And I think that we're gonna have to confront that on like a holistic level.
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:51.039
And I think there is a lot about personality in creativity, as in your story, the story you told me about like your background, your evolution, like designing mixtapes and my story that I told you about, like designing Nike ads and like photoshopping myself into stuff is part of our our lived experience is super rich.
00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:52.640
And I think there's a lot of value in that.
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:55.680
And I hope that we'll get to a place where we start to identify that.
00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:57.279
And maybe AI will help us.
00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:10.319
Maybe AI will help us identify like what is unique about Kaiser's perspective, what's unique about Olivia's perspective, and how do we not necessarily monetize that, but how do we give it value and how do we amplify it in really interesting and unique ways?
00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:16.240
And I hope that optimistically, AI will solve some of the larger challenges that we're facing, right, as a society.
00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:19.039
I think we've opened some Pandora's boxes.
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:25.599
I think AI is one Pandora's box, which is like no one knows what's going to happen if the AGI is achieved.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:27.279
What does that mean for humanity?
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:28.720
The other is like global warming.
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:34.240
We're facing like a crisis, you know, of kind of shifting environments across the globe, right?
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:41.200
We have this overarching crisis of nationalism in a world where we're all one family and we're all humans.
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:46.160
And when you look at it from the astronauts going to the moon, it's just we're one big circle, right?
00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:47.440
And we see all these divides.
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:49.680
And we have to solve those problems long term.
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:52.799
And so hopefully AI can help us with that.
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:56.319
Um, and I see that as kind of like my hope for AI.
00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:02.559
But listen, I think technology in the past has rarely been used in positive ways.
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:07.839
It has been used mostly to benefit people from a wealth perspective, right?
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:16.640
So, like computers, the internet, all of those things, mobile technology, you know, cell phone services, all of those things have been used for commerce.
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:32.400
I don't know if my viewpoint of optimism is necessarily like it's probably naive in the sense that like the reality is we will find ways to monetize it, but I hope that we will continue to focus on ways to impact, you know, human human lives in positive ways.
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:33.119
Okay.
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:36.240
So I'm I'm also an optimist.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:49.039
And how I how I look at this because I feel like I can house how I think and control how I think, but I can't control AI, like what's happening with AI necessarily.
00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:56.640
I do think the optimistic version of myself sees this opening for people if they take it.
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:05.920
As in, like, you know, before we had Squarespace, not everyone could have a website, but then you have Squarespace, and now all of a sudden everyone who wants a website can easily build a website.
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:09.279
And I think that that's unlocking now with AI.
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:19.839
If you have an idea and you're a plumber and you want to go out there and you want to solve one of your own problems, you can create an interface, an app, and you can sell that.
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:27.039
Now, does that is that sustained over time as things shift and AI continues to get stronger?
00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:33.839
I can't say yes or no, but I think that right now we're at a very wonderful opening for those who choose to take it.
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:35.359
It's an exciting juncture.
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:40.799
And I think that you're right, it democratizes everything in the same way that we hoped it would.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:43.119
And I think that that is a reality.
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:47.359
It'll help, you know, benefit lives in many different ways and help people tell stories.
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:58.960
And I think that the difference between just AI as a technology is that not only can it build a site for someone who's a plumber, but it can also come up with a marketing strategy for them.
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:00.640
It can help them scale their business.
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:06.559
It can function as like Red Antler, it can function as McKinsey, it can function as, you know, if you know how to leverage it, right?
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:08.000
So I think that that's exciting.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:09.039
It can help you scale.
00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:15.759
So what I would say about what you were saying is it can help you scale if you use it right.
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:23.759
I also want to say that because, you know, you you and I, we focus a lot on iconic companies and creating iconic.
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:32.960
And what I look at AI and the LLMs, they're all it's trained on the version of work that you and I have both created, right?
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:38.960
But it's going to train on that information and it's going to give the median response.
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:46.000
So if you're looking to create like a social ad, a social asset, the output is going to only be the median.
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:50.400
Where iconic companies have always worked above that.
00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:55.039
They're looking to be disruptors, they're looking to create things that no one's seen before.
00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:58.480
And so you're going to have to up-level.
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:05.680
There's always going to be folks who can get by with mediocre because, you know, like the plumber doesn't need an iconic brand, for example.
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:09.920
But they can go out there and create something that works well for their industry.
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:14.880
But then there's always going to be iconic companies that want to be a disruption.
00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:19.839
They want to be disruptive, they want to be category-defining and own their space.
00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:26.720
And that requires a different level than you're going to be able to get from an output of an LLM.
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:32.160
And it as the models train and get stronger, of course, it's going to continue to evolve.
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:35.119
And that's the challenge that you and I will have.
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:40.960
And the also the opportunity and the fun is like we get to always constantly be up leveling.
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:42.079
Yeah, love that.
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:43.200
Yeah, I think you're right.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:50.880
I think, listen, I think I had like a lot of anxiety about AI like early on in the, you know, last year when there's so much happening.
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:52.559
And you know, it can be overwhelming.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:54.720
It's like every day there's a new, you know, update.
00:30:54.799 --> 00:31:02.960
And I think like social culture is built to antagonize, to create fear, to create a lot of noise, right?
00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:10.480
And I think that a lot of great work can happen using AI tools, but it also sucks in a lot of ways, right?
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:13.039
Like it just is not there in terms of capabilities.
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:15.440
And I don't know that it ever will completely get there.
00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:20.720
Like I think that there's so much in storytelling that is nuanced, that is detailed.
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:28.079
There's so much in brand design that is about, you know, the layers of craft and details that you put into brand design.
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:37.599
Some of that will merge probably with Figma updates over the coming year, because you know, we've been essentially training Figma to design layouts, you know, for a long time.
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:39.920
And I think it's merging more and more and more.
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:45.680
But I do think that you have to, as creatives and as business leaders, put the noise aside.
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:48.480
There's this thing I heard like about signal and noise.
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:59.440
I don't know if you've heard this term, but it's like this idea that within, you know, kind of like your ambition and your goal setting, there's a signal, which is what you want to work towards, right?
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:04.400
And that signal is clarity around purpose, objective, goals.
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:06.000
And it's usually one or two things.
00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:07.359
And then there's a lot of noise, right?
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:21.920
In your day-to-day, it's like, yes, I can go tomorrow and figure out how my team can build, you know, vibe coding sites, or I can figure out how my team builds better production for social assets, you know, it through art direction, right?
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.519
But a lot of that is noise, right?
00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:28.480
Like better people in terms of capital, resources, and talent will build those tools, right?
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:33.759
The signal is like, what do I want to do as a creative leader and what's my ambition for brands?
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:36.240
And I think that's sort of what I talked about at the start of the call.
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:41.279
And how do I continue to work towards that, leveraging all the great tools and all the great assets I have?
00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:46.480
And I think that as leaders, we clarify what we feel is our objective in all of this.
00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:51.119
I think you can find clarity in it, and I think it can be less overwhelming, right?
00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:58.079
Because I think there is a ton, there's just so much noise in this space, and it's really hard to identify where to put your focus.
00:32:58.400 --> 00:32:58.640
Yeah.
00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:00.160
No, I think that's absolutely true.
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:08.160
And I think the the leaders in this space, regardless of what category they're in, are truly going to understand that.
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:12.480
You have to know where to put your time because there's only so much time and energy.
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:18.240
So if you're not in alignment with your goals and your objectives and you're constantly saying no to things.
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:22.640
I mean, even as individuals, you know, you have to be able to do that for yourself too.
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:34.960
And I think that now with AI, you can jump in so quickly to build something, but if you don't have a clear understanding of the direction and the vision of what you're building, it can break really quickly.
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:39.440
And I think that's where, you know, I always say direction is the moat right now.
00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:39.599
Yeah.
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:41.839
Being really clear on the direction.
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:43.039
Yeah, I love that.
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:44.960
And I think we all have our motes, right?
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:58.720
It's like you're you might be better than other people at defining a direction, you know, and I might be better at other people at defining cultural relevance or predicting kind of future trends for brands and the ways they should work towards that.
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:03.279
I think we all have our moat, and I think that's really becomes more and more your superpowers.
00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:06.400
What's the thing, you know, that you can bring to the table?
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:12.480
Because I think it's, you know, we've been in this culture of generalist, as in you have to do a lot of different things really well.
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:18.719
I think the future is AI becomes the generalist because it will be able to do all those things really well.
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:24.559
And I think that it'll allow a lot of us to become more specialized in our focus, right?
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:29.599
Because AI will be able to tap into all these different spaces for us and execute for us.
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:34.480
I think maybe it creates more specialists or people who are like, this is my one focus.
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:35.760
You know, what's my moat?
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:37.119
How do I focus on that?
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:41.280
I'm a generalist for the most part, so that's kind of like an interesting world for me.
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:48.239
But I think that, you know, yeah, the maybe the generalists become people who really understand how to connect the different tools in the right ways.
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:52.639
Um, but yeah, I think we all have to define our moat and we have to define how we make that relevant.
00:34:52.880 --> 00:35:00.000
Let's switch gears a little bit because uh we we covered a lot of AI, which is so relevant.
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:10.239
But I am curious, just you know, just setting the stage about what you've learned over time about bringing in a company and seeing them scale.
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:20.719
And like, what could folks do that don't have maybe access to a a red antler budget do to help their company scale successfully in terms of brand?
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:21.280
Yeah.
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:23.920
The hardest thing, as you know, is scaling a brand.
00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:29.599
I think that brand scale is about defining additional touch points to expand into.
00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:37.280
And what I mean by that is I think when you start with a brand, you can connect in one way to one set of consumers, right?
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:39.519
And you're like introducing yourself.
00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:46.079
So there's like a huge difference between like introduction and expansion, which is about lots of conversations.
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:52.719
So it's like if you go to a party, right, and you introduce yourself to the host, right?
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:53.840
That's an introduction.
00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:57.760
And they're like, hey, Olivia's amazing, she's so cool, right?
00:35:57.920 --> 00:36:03.920
If you stop there, you don't really scale your ability to connect to all the people in that space, right?
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:09.199
And I think scale is about amplifying connection through experience, right?
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:21.679
And that's about really like being strong in terms of your foundation of what you stand for and who you are as a brand, but then finding ways to interpret that in different spaces.
00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:34.400
And I think what you can do to scale, and if we talk about just the tools that are available to you, I think social media is probably like the most valuable tool in terms of scale and being able to have conversation with lots of people.
00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:41.519
I think social media is one of the most exciting places for brand building at the moment because I think you can really express your personality.
00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:45.519
You can have other people express that personality through, you know, influence.
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:49.440
And you can really kind of connect to lots of different consumers in different ways.
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:53.679
And there are different social media networks that they're appropriate for different types of connections.
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:58.960
That is sort of low-hanging fruit for scale, is you start to tap into these networks, right?
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:03.599
And you start to really translate your brand in the right ways in those spaces.
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:12.079
I think the second thing around scale is really bringing in expertise in the different spaces that you need to connect to, right?
00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:16.320
And expertise could be like at a very low level, could be like an influencer, right?
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:19.920
Who really understands your audience better than maybe you do, right?
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:37.039
So that's like the low-level expertise that you can bring in as you kind of scale and as you think of defining expertise, you can bring in agencies like Red Antler, you can bring in agencies yours into the mix to have those conversations to really amplify the ways that you're connecting, right?
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:40.159
And I think that that is the way that I think about scale.
00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:45.280
It's about continuing to like expand tentacles into new experiences.
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:52.239
And I think the most important thing you can do in that process is to test and learn very quickly.
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:59.280
I always talk to brands, whether they're like tiny brands or huge brands, about this notion of testing and learning in real time.
00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:02.239
And I think that's how you become a living, breathing brand, right?
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:05.360
Is you go out and you try something, right?
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:14.639
And you fail or you're successful in that space and you learn from that and you evolve the brand in terms of the experience of the brand, not the core of the brand, right?
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:17.920
And you go, hey, we tried this, that works, or that didn't work.
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:18.960
Let's keep going, right?
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:19.920
Or we tried that.
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:26.719
And I think the more you test and learn, the better your ability is to like connect to multiple experiences.
00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:29.280
Try doing an experiential pop-up, right?
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:31.039
Try creating an app, right?
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:38.079
Try creating, you know, a new way for people to interact with your brand on the site, on your site.
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:41.199
And so I think these opportunities to test and learn are really important.
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:47.199
I think you've got to like really become an expert in like the world of what brands are doing in your space.
00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:52.320
What I mean by that is I'm an obsessive expert around what's happening in the world of brand building.
00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:56.800
And I'm always trying to figure out what are people doing that's successful?
00:38:56.960 --> 00:38:59.599
And think about those analogies for your brand, right?
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.519
Are they doing things that are successful?
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:03.039
Can that apply to my brand?
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:04.559
And it may be unexpected.
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:10.400
And we try to bring in unexpected experiences into brand building so that you stand out from the marketplace, right?
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:20.639
Because if everyone else is doing retail pop-ups and instead you're doing really interesting things on stage at Coachella with a certain artist, right?
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:25.760
Or you're doing really interesting things with your website or an AI chatbot or whatever it might be.
00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:32.559
Like you've got to, I think part of it is a brand being successful is about differentiation and standing out in the marketplace.
00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:43.920
So you've got to come up with ways that you are showing up, you know, you're taking the baseline of what everyone's doing, but you're also showing up in new, exciting ways because if you don't, you become everyone else, right?
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:45.360
And you become irrelevant.
00:39:45.679 --> 00:40:01.760
I think there is like that maybe fear of irrelevance, but I also want to specify that there are brands, lifestyle brands, you know, that don't necessarily need to operate at that level of always iconic brand and category defining.
00:40:02.079 --> 00:40:19.440
If you have ambitions as a founder and you want your company to, you know, be a unicorn, that's a whole nother energy, requires a whole nother level of effort from the individual versus someone who's just saying, you know, I really just want to take care of my family and create my own space in my own company.
00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:21.440
And I think they can both exist.
00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:27.760
And obviously, who we serve, our portfolio of clients, is in the I want to be category defining.
00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:29.760
That's why they're they're working with us.
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:34.320
But I just want to specify that there is a there is that alternative um perspective.
00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:45.840
Yeah, there are brands who have been around for a hundred years and they do the same thing every single day and have social media and they're like, you know, but like not everyone can be that type of brand, right?
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:58.880
And so I think if you have an incredible audience who loves your product or loves your brand, you know, sometimes it's just as simple as building on that audience and continuing to build that audience in the same way you've always done it, right?
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:02.880
So it can be quite one-dimensional if, you know, that's the right approach.
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:06.559
But again, even that is doing something different, right?
00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:12.960
It may seem like you're doing something that's not different, but that is differentiated in the marketing landscape, right?
00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:22.639
The fact if you're a brand that does the same thing over and over again and doesn't try to do new things and shows up in the same way, that is differentiated in the marketplace.
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:28.960
So embrace your uniqueness and embrace kind of your special sauce, which could be brand.
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:33.920
It could also be marketing tactic, it could also be kind of audience, right?
00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:39.360
Sometimes you have a really unique audience and you want to like really talk to that audience and continue to grow that audience.
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:42.639
I think a lot of brands in the food hospitality space are like that.
00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:47.760
You know, I went to this hundred-year-old pizzeria in New Haven the other day and they just they serve pizza.
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:50.880
There's a line around the block and they've done it for a hundred years, right?
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:52.480
And it's good pizza, right?
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:55.599
They don't need social media because they're a hundred years old.
00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:59.920
You know, In and Out is another one I love to talk about because I used to work there in college, but same thing.
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:01.440
The same secret menu.
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:02.559
Hi, how are you?
00:42:02.719 --> 00:42:08.320
It's all the frying machines are still where the fryers are, the grills are where the grills are, the buns are the same.
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:10.000
Like it's been that way since the beginning.
00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:10.480
Yeah.
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:19.679
And those brands are fortunate to have a great following of enthusiasts and fans and you know, people who go out there and advocate for them, right?
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:21.199
Most brands don't have that.
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:26.639
You don't have people going out and saying you've got to go try X, Y, and Z, right?
00:42:26.719 --> 00:42:30.559
And they are, so you have to go out and inquire that audience yourself.
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:33.119
And there are ways to do that.
00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:39.360
And I'm a big believer in experts and trusting experts when you're growing a brand.
00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:46.480
You know, if we talk about the food space, there's a brand that opened up in Soho in my neighborhood the other day that is frozen yogurt.
00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:53.039
And frozen yogurt is now a new trend in New York because these trends in hospitality go in cycles, right?
00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:55.199
So it was pink berry, it was a huge thing.
00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:57.840
People forgot about it, no one cares about frozen yogurt.
00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:01.519
And then all of a sudden there's like a new brand that's like, hey, we're doing frozen yogurt, right?
00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:07.920
But it connects to the evolution of that trend, which is everyone wants great protein, they want healthy desserts, right?
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:12.800
So it's a new audience and they're introducing frozen yogurt to this audience in a new way.
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:15.199
And their tactics are all social, right?
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:19.679
Like they've got influencer and they have lines around the block to get into frozen yogurt.
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:25.199
And I was walking by and I was like, I wouldn't wait in a line around the block to go and try like frozen yogurt.
00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:27.039
Like, this is ridiculous, you know?
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:39.679
But they have mastered the expertise that they need to attract the audience that they're trying to attract, which is a new consumer who's not familiar with frozen yogurt in the same way I am as an old man.
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:47.119
They're just like, we're trying to attract a new consumer, and we know how to attract, we've like found someone who really understands how to get to that consumer.
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:49.679
And the proof is in the line around the block, right?
00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:54.880
There are lots of people who open new hospitality experiences in New York, and there's no, there are no lines around the block.
00:43:55.039 --> 00:43:59.760
So there's something about expertise that is really relevant, right?
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.159
And you have to understand your space and you've got to understand your consumer.
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:11.440
And you've got to really dig in on, you know, what it means to get and attract that consumer, right?
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:12.400
And what it takes.
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:23.039
And look at the brands that are successful, not just in your category, but outside of the category and say, if it's a social, if the play is social, let's find expertise in the social place, right?
00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:23.920
In the social space.
00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:27.519
If this play is experiential, let's find expertise in the experiment.
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:35.679
If the play is digital transformation, let's find experts like you who can like really guide them through kind of, you know, building products and apps.
00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:40.719
And so you've got to find expertise and you can scale that expertise over time.
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:55.519
It doesn't mean that you've got to go out and hire the largest, you know, kind of digital agency in the world, but hire, you know, someone who will come in and help consult and help guide you, you know, at least in the early days of building the brand and the foundation of how you scale.
00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:56.320
I like that.
00:44:56.400 --> 00:45:00.480
You just sold our you sold us to listening.
00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:02.719
Trust the experts.
00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:04.159
Trust me and Olivia.
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:06.960
Olivia and I are people you should call.
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:10.880
Uh Kaiser, this has been such a wonderful conversation.
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:15.440
And I look forward to, you know, continuing this relationship.
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:20.639
Uh, this has been, if there's anything else you would like to cover as part of the podcast, let us know.
00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:24.239
If there's any highlights or questions you want to ask me, more than happy.
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:26.559
But if not, we will we will wrap here.
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:30.880
I am so, so honored to be uh having this conversation with you.
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:36.800
I'm such a like fan of yours and all the great thought leadership and like conversations you're putting out to the world.
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:40.480
Thank you for inviting me and thank you for having me in this conversation.
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:42.960
And I look forward to, of course, always chatting.
00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:44.079
Thank you, Kaiser.
00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:45.679
Thanks for being on Building Iconic.
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:46.559
Talk soon.
