Botched execution — Christa Pike could fully recover, expert says — what happens next?

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Hey guys,
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uh,
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thanks so much for checking out my show really,
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really appreciate it really appreciate everybody uh
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who has subscribed to my channel,
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uh,
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just a crazy situation happening with Krista Pike out of Tennessee.
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Uh,
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she was supposed to be executed.
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She was given,
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uh,
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a lethal dosage of,
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um,
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drugs twice.
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And it didn't work
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and she is still alive and the latest from
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her attorneys who just spoke a little while ago
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is that she is in the hospital
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and that she is still receiving life saving treatment and
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there are reports that she is not in a coma.
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I want you guys to hear the latest from her attorneys.
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The state of Tennessee has shown us again that they are not
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capable of carrying out an execution consistent with basic human dignity.
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Last night was not just inefficient,
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it was cruel and it was torturous.
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We may never know
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what all she was suffering through either because she can't remember it,
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she can't tell it,
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or
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it overwhelms her in such a way that,
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you know,
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sometimes
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pain and suffering affects people that way.
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It is our understanding that there are some.
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There's some blistering and burning
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around the sites of the injection right now
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on,
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on her,
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but like
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what that means,
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I,
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I don't,
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I don't want to guess about what that means.
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All right,
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so her attorneys saying she's recei receiving life saving treatment right now.
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Uh,
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coming up in this episode,
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I spoke to an ER doctor who has treated overdoses of the kind of drug
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that Pike.
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Was given and says
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that she could fully recover from this.
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He's seen it happen before,
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so he's gonna explain
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what he thinks happened in this episode.
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Uh also you're going to hear from witnesses who watched all of this go down
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at the prison in Tennessee
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and then I've got an attorney
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who's joining me kind of the the the legal side of this like what happens next?
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Will they try to
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execute her again.
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Uh,
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and then finally I'm looking into the firing squad which
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is actually known to be
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uh the most
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humane way of executing someone.
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Many experts say that
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uh there are several
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states that
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that use the firing squad instead of lethal injection,
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uh,
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and I'm gonna talk about that.
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So a lot to get to in this episode of Brian Enton Investigates.
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All right,
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hey guys,
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um,
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so the situation with Christa Pike,
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um,
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it,
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it really is unprecedented in some way.
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Pike was given
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2 doses of a lethal drug,
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but
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she did not die,
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uh,
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and she was alive and she was snoring
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after the attempted lethal injection.
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It was pentobarbital,
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um,
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that's the,
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the drug that was used,
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and this is all ongoing in Tennessee.
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She was taken by an ambulance to a hospital.
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ambulance went from the prison to the hospital,
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uh,
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which that's the part,
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and I'm going to talk about this several times in this episode with some experts,
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but.
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That's the part
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that I can't wrap my mind around,
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like
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if you just like think about it for a second,
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the state was trying to kill her,
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but then ended up calling an ambulance and now she is at a
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hospital where doctors are trying to save her and keep her alive.
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It's all,
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it's hard to wrap your mind around.
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Um,
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Pike would have been the first woman executed in Tennessee in more than
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200 years.
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Uh,
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she was
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18 years old when she was sentenced to death for torturing and killing.
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A young woman,
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19-year-old Colleen Schlemmer,
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uh,
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investigators say Pike,
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her boyfriend,
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and a friend lured their fellow Job Corps classmate into a wooded area.
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This was in Knoxville,
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Tennessee.
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It,
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it's a terrible crime.
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They,
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they beat her and they tortured her,
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went on for roughly half an hour according to
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the police reports that I was reading today.
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Um,
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they carved a pentagram into her chest
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and then struck her with a large rock,
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police say,
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um,
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and then.
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Again,
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some of it,
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it's very disturbing.
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Pike
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even kept a piece of her skull as a souvenir.
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She confessed to the killing,
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uh,
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and then she was sentenced to death,
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and that was back in 1996.
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Now
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there have been questions about whether the
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death penalty in this case was appropriate.
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because of allegations
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that Pike was sexually abused when she was a child,
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uh,
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but the Supreme Court
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ordered the execution to remain on,
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and then that is when
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the unexpected happened and she did
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not die.
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Now several members of the media were there as witnesses,
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uh,
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which is standard practice with a lot of these executions all over the country.
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I've actually never done that before.
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Um,
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it's kind of hard to imagine doing that,
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I guess
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if it was a case that I was covering,
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I,
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I would do it,
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but it,
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it can't be easy to be in that room,
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especially for,
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for these journalists in light of what they
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witnessed and what happened in this case.
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So first,
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before I get to everything else,
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I want to play for you guys what some of the reporters said when they came out
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and
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um she had not died.
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They went through two rounds and she was still breathing at the end.
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It was very ragged.
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She lifted her head up and was looking around at one point.
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She said
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that
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she said
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that there was a spot that was burning and hurting and asked if that was normal.
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None of it was normal.
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I covered all the executions last year
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and most of the ones this year.
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We haven't seen anything like it.
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It went really poorly.
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The first thing I want to tell you is very
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obviously we have a lot of questions about what we saw
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and what we did not see because there were moments when the blinds
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were down for us and there were moments when the blinds were up for us.
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It appeared that this did not go like they thought it was supposed to go,
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but we don't know that.
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When we left the building.
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So far as we knew,
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she was probably still alive.
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I will say I've witnessed,
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I believe,
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5 executions in Tennessee.
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Nothing about today was normal,
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typical at all.
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Why was it that
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by the time the blinds went down for the second time at 8:05,
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she was still breathing,
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and her breathing at points was very rhythmic.
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Now,
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at times it appeared labored.
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She was snoring at times,
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but she was still breathing.
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We had to listen to all that from
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8:05 until we left the building with the blinds down.
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We could not see what was happening.
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We heard activity,
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but we don't know what happened.
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We're not sure that's appropriate,
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and that's a question that we'd like answered.
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At one point at 7:34,
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she said,
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My arm feels like it's about to burst open.
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Then she smiles really big.
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Then she starts talking about that one spot on her arm.
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Does this happen like that?
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The one spot,
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I didn't hear the rest,
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and then her
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advisor says,
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relax,
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and she says,
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I'm trying.
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Um.
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Yeah,
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she's talking throughout this,
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then starts breathing,
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moaning,
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snoring.
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The curtains close at first at 7:46
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and she was clearly still
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alive.
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She was clearly still breathing and snoring.
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We could audibly hear that.
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The curtains open again.
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3 minutes later.
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She was snoring very loudly at that point,
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mouth open,
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snoring.
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Um,
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and then
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the
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Curtains close again at 8:05 and that's when they remained closed.
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Media witnesses repeatedly asked,
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Can we open the curtains because we could still audibly hear her snoring and
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we were kind of looked at like,
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uh,
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we don't know.
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But yeah,
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and then at one point
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her snores started to get squeaky.
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We didn't know if it was her
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making that noise or a machine,
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but that's all I have to add.
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Krista Gil Pike continued to blink on and off.
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She was smiling.
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She let out a couple of laughs during this process.
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I saw a tear roll down her right eye,
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and then she said one spot is really throbbing.
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A lot of this execution or attempted execution,
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whatever it was,
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happened when we could not see what was going on
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and
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That was after
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a long day where none of us knew what was going on,
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as all of you know.
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This is an enormous dose
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of a sedative
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that should not
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ever need to happen twice,
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but it did,
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and then she
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stayed alive.
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I think one of the issues we have here
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is
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The protocol doesn't talk about what happens if
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you do this twice and they're still alive.
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I don't think that that is something that was planned for.
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So
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there was no rules about when to open the curtain after a second time.
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This is pretty unprecedented.
284
00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:41.760
None of it should have happened and it wasn't planned for.
285
00:08:41.880 --> 00:08:44.520
It made it really hard for the prison system to navigate and
286
00:08:44.520 --> 00:08:46.859
it made it hard for us to understand what was going on.
287
00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:50.080
So what's really dramatic is during that press conference,
288
00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:51.700
the reporters were there,
289
00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:52.559
they were talking,
290
00:08:52.640 --> 00:08:53.880
they were taking questions,
291
00:08:53.950 --> 00:08:55.020
they were answering,
292
00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:58.780
and then they saw in real time the ambulance showing up
293
00:08:59.159 --> 00:09:00.590
to pick up Christa Pike.
294
00:09:00.640 --> 00:09:01.299
Watch this.
295
00:09:02.710 --> 00:09:04.299
Her spiritual advisor was with her.
296
00:09:37.520 --> 00:09:39.520
So Tennessee Governor Bill Lee said in
297
00:09:39.520 --> 00:09:41.690
a statement that he has ordered a comprehensive
298
00:09:41.690 --> 00:09:44.760
third party review to determine exactly what occurred
299
00:09:44.760 --> 00:09:47.710
and that the remaining scheduled executions in Tennessee
300
00:09:47.890 --> 00:09:49.440
will not take place this year.
301
00:09:49.809 --> 00:09:52.090
He said that carrying out a lawfully imposed
302
00:09:52.090 --> 00:09:54.809
sentence is among the state's most serious responsibilities,
303
00:09:54.849 --> 00:09:56.109
and the people of Tennessee
304
00:09:56.500 --> 00:09:58.109
expect it to be done in a manner
305
00:09:58.250 --> 00:10:00.409
that is not only legal and constitutional.
306
00:10:00.500 --> 00:10:01.760
is effective.
307
00:10:02.140 --> 00:10:04.049
The Tennessee Department of Corrections,
308
00:10:04.219 --> 00:10:04.340
um,
309
00:10:04.500 --> 00:10:04.950
they
310
00:10:05.299 --> 00:10:06.020
haven't said much,
311
00:10:06.090 --> 00:10:08.419
but they did release a statement that says the Tennessee
312
00:10:08.419 --> 00:10:11.919
Department of Corrections followed every step of the state's lawful established
313
00:10:12.099 --> 00:10:14.880
execution protocol approved by the Attorney General's office.
314
00:10:15.260 --> 00:10:19.320
The lethal injection chemical in the protocol has consistently been effective,
315
00:10:19.489 --> 00:10:21.260
and the protocol does not allow for
316
00:10:21.260 --> 00:10:23.500
additional procedures beyond what was carried out.
317
00:10:23.590 --> 00:10:24.239
This evening,
318
00:10:24.469 --> 00:10:28.210
Christa Pike has been transported to an off-site medical facility.
319
00:10:28.630 --> 00:10:29.710
7 other people,
320
00:10:29.830 --> 00:10:30.429
by the way,
321
00:10:30.830 --> 00:10:32.090
have survived
322
00:10:32.349 --> 00:10:36.719
medical problems due to an execution team's failure to access a vein
323
00:10:36.950 --> 00:10:38.710
to administer lethal injection drugs,
324
00:10:38.789 --> 00:10:39.609
but no one
325
00:10:40.070 --> 00:10:43.330
has stayed alive after receiving the drugs
326
00:10:44.109 --> 00:10:46.549
in the way that Krista Pike did.
327
00:10:47.929 --> 00:10:49.359
So as for the victim's family,
328
00:10:49.390 --> 00:10:51.960
and I don't want to leave them out of this conversation,
329
00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:56.150
obviously they were there to witness Pike get executed.
330
00:10:56.299 --> 00:10:57.460
Colleen Slummer's mom,
331
00:10:58.159 --> 00:10:59.000
she has spoken out.
332
00:10:59.119 --> 00:11:01.580
She told NBC News that they didn't say anything
333
00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:05.450
and then all of a sudden they asked all the victims to leave and that they left.
334
00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:07.479
She said we didn't know anything until we got
335
00:11:07.479 --> 00:11:09.270
up to the office and saw the commissioner,
336
00:11:09.280 --> 00:11:11.099
and he said that it didn't work
337
00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:13.179
and she was on her way to the hospital
338
00:11:13.400 --> 00:11:15.979
and the mom said they effed up.
339
00:11:16.880 --> 00:11:18.950
So you just imagine what she's going through,
340
00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:19.440
um.
341
00:11:20.299 --> 00:11:20.780
So
342
00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:25.309
What happened medically here and what's going to happen next
343
00:11:26.239 --> 00:11:26.739
to
344
00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:27.750
Christa Pike?
345
00:11:28.890 --> 00:11:30.000
And the answer to that
346
00:11:30.169 --> 00:11:31.289
is kind of surprising,
347
00:11:31.369 --> 00:11:33.849
and I want you to hear my conversation with ER Doctor
348
00:11:34.140 --> 00:11:34.969
uh James William.
349
00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:36.109
We talked all about this.
350
00:11:36.369 --> 00:11:38.950
I think there's several things that could have gone wrong.
351
00:11:39.289 --> 00:11:39.809
Um,
352
00:11:39.969 --> 00:11:40.770
the first one,
353
00:11:40.849 --> 00:11:43.469
the most glaring error is that we've all,
354
00:11:43.729 --> 00:11:44.250
uh,
355
00:11:44.570 --> 00:11:45.080
uh,
356
00:11:45.090 --> 00:11:45.719
all of us have,
357
00:11:45.750 --> 00:11:49.390
have pointed out is a single drug protocol
358
00:11:49.729 --> 00:11:50.349
is,
359
00:11:50.429 --> 00:11:50.650
uh,
360
00:11:50.690 --> 00:11:51.869
is not ideal.
361
00:11:52.250 --> 00:11:52.869
Um,
362
00:11:53.570 --> 00:11:56.719
the initial lethal injection protocol developed in
363
00:11:57.030 --> 00:12:00.349
The state of Oklahoma in 1972 by Doctor Jay Chapman,
364
00:12:00.729 --> 00:12:01.280
um,
365
00:12:01.349 --> 00:12:03.830
was a three-drug protocol and it worked very well,
366
00:12:03.909 --> 00:12:05.020
it was very effective.
367
00:12:05.349 --> 00:12:08.270
And that has been effective as far as I'm aware,
368
00:12:08.299 --> 00:12:09.409
up until fairly
369
00:12:09.630 --> 00:12:12.049
recently when it's become impossible for
370
00:12:12.919 --> 00:12:15.919
State Department of Correction to get some of these drugs.
371
00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:16.739
Um,
372
00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:17.599
so,
373
00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:18.809
that's the first problem.
374
00:12:18.940 --> 00:12:20.400
You're using a single drug,
375
00:12:20.719 --> 00:12:21.080
um,
376
00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:23.440
which is really an just an anesthetic.
377
00:12:23.510 --> 00:12:24.900
It's not supposed to be
378
00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:27.419
lethal until you get into huge doses.
379
00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:28.380
Um,
380
00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:31.039
second problem is the one of venous access,
381
00:12:31.119 --> 00:12:32.479
which you alluded to.
382
00:12:32.760 --> 00:12:33.190
Um,
383
00:12:33.239 --> 00:12:35.780
the possibility that she felt burning in her arm,
384
00:12:36.280 --> 00:12:36.440
uh,
385
00:12:36.539 --> 00:12:38.280
may indicate that they didn't have,
386
00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:38.479
uh,
387
00:12:38.590 --> 00:12:39.830
that the vein was blown,
388
00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:42.140
that they didn't have good venous access.
389
00:12:42.619 --> 00:12:43.280
Um,
390
00:12:43.940 --> 00:12:45.900
those are the two that jump out at us,
391
00:12:45.909 --> 00:12:45.960
uh,
392
00:12:46.059 --> 00:12:46.909
right away,
393
00:12:47.219 --> 00:12:47.619
um,
394
00:12:47.780 --> 00:12:48.150
but there's,
395
00:12:48.219 --> 00:12:48.380
you know,
396
00:12:48.460 --> 00:12:50.159
there's other possibilities as well.
397
00:12:50.460 --> 00:12:50.780
Um,
398
00:12:50.900 --> 00:12:52.489
her attorneys have gone on record,
399
00:12:52.539 --> 00:12:52.700
uh,
400
00:12:52.780 --> 00:12:53.780
in the press saying,
401
00:12:54.020 --> 00:12:54.219
you know,
402
00:12:54.340 --> 00:12:55.489
they had queries about,
403
00:12:55.500 --> 00:12:55.900
um.
404
00:12:56.650 --> 00:12:57.309
Uh,
405
00:12:57.609 --> 00:12:58.289
old drug,
406
00:12:58.520 --> 00:12:58.880
you know,
407
00:12:59.049 --> 00:12:59.479
uh,
408
00:12:59.570 --> 00:12:59.770
uh,
409
00:12:59.929 --> 00:13:00.609
pentobarbital,
410
00:13:00.679 --> 00:13:01.989
which is what I believe they used,
411
00:13:02.289 --> 00:13:02.599
uh,
412
00:13:02.729 --> 00:13:05.960
having been stored for too long a time that was no longer as effective.
413
00:13:06.250 --> 00:13:07.469
That's a possibility.
414
00:13:07.849 --> 00:13:08.409
Um,
415
00:13:08.650 --> 00:13:10.520
dosage may have been calculated incorrectly.
416
00:13:10.760 --> 00:13:10.770
I,
417
00:13:11.250 --> 00:13:12.549
I think that's unlikely.
418
00:13:14.010 --> 00:13:14.130
But,
419
00:13:14.219 --> 00:13:15.570
but these are all possibilities,
420
00:13:15.650 --> 00:13:15.869
but
421
00:13:15.969 --> 00:13:17.250
I think the primary one is,
422
00:13:17.570 --> 00:13:17.729
is,
423
00:13:17.830 --> 00:13:17.979
is,
424
00:13:18.010 --> 00:13:20.849
is single drug protocols are fraught with peril.
425
00:13:22.169 --> 00:13:25.969
It it's kind of hard like morally to think about or just
426
00:13:26.409 --> 00:13:29.809
hard to wrap your mind around the fact that they were trying to kill her.
427
00:13:30.669 --> 00:13:31.260
Um,
428
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:32.820
and then it didn't work,
429
00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:35.419
so then an ambulance comes and now
430
00:13:36.119 --> 00:13:36.840
her lawyers just said,
431
00:13:36.880 --> 00:13:37.030
you know,
432
00:13:37.119 --> 00:13:39.409
there's life saving measures continuing.
433
00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:40.349
It's just,
434
00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:40.809
you know what I mean,
435
00:13:40.880 --> 00:13:40.929
you're,
436
00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:41.840
it's almost like my mom,
437
00:13:41.880 --> 00:13:42.880
I'm trying to figure it out,
438
00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:43.869
like what's going on here.
439
00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:44.510
They tried to kill her,
440
00:13:44.520 --> 00:13:45.739
but now they're trying to save her.
441
00:13:46.780 --> 00:13:46.940
Yeah,
442
00:13:47.059 --> 00:13:49.859
they're between a rock and a hard place because uh they've,
443
00:13:49.900 --> 00:13:51.539
they've given themselves no,
444
00:13:51.979 --> 00:13:53.960
uh no alternative in the protocol.
445
00:13:54.140 --> 00:13:54.659
Um.
446
00:13:55.479 --> 00:13:55.760
You know,
447
00:13:55.859 --> 00:13:56.159
this is,
448
00:13:56.239 --> 00:13:57.080
this is where,
449
00:13:57.090 --> 00:13:57.580
uh,
450
00:13:58.210 --> 00:13:59.820
other protocols have been,
451
00:14:00.359 --> 00:14:01.039
and let's face it,
452
00:14:01.109 --> 00:14:03.099
executions are messy business,
453
00:14:03.510 --> 00:14:04.109
regardless.
454
00:14:04.400 --> 00:14:04.750
And,
455
00:14:04.760 --> 00:14:05.099
uh,
456
00:14:05.239 --> 00:14:07.669
whether you oppose capital punishment or,
457
00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:09.119
or endorse it,
458
00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:09.789
um,
459
00:14:10.409 --> 00:14:12.109
the fact is it's a fact of life in America
460
00:14:12.109 --> 00:14:13.679
and we have to recognize these things are messy.
461
00:14:13.760 --> 00:14:13.960
They're,
462
00:14:14.289 --> 00:14:15.349
they're not gonna be pretty,
463
00:14:15.400 --> 00:14:17.440
but you have to have some kind of an alternative,
464
00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:17.940
some
465
00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:18.890
Plan B,
466
00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:19.760
shall we say.
467
00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:21.500
And with a single drug protocol,
468
00:14:21.570 --> 00:14:23.239
there just simply isn't a plan B,
469
00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:24.650
so you've got no choice then,
470
00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:25.039
uh,
471
00:14:25.150 --> 00:14:25.320
you know,
472
00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:25.520
what,
473
00:14:25.609 --> 00:14:26.359
what are you gonna do?
474
00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:28.700
Hold a pillow over the person's face?
475
00:14:28.989 --> 00:14:29.580
Um,
476
00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:30.320
yeah,
477
00:14:30.760 --> 00:14:30.859
there,
478
00:14:30.869 --> 00:14:30.880
there,
479
00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:31.700
there's just,
480
00:14:32.359 --> 00:14:32.650
uh,
481
00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:33.150
it's,
482
00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:33.979
it's a dead end.
483
00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:34.159
And,
484
00:14:34.239 --> 00:14:36.700
and I think that's very frustrating for everyone involved.
485
00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:37.979
I'm sure at least.
486
00:14:38.520 --> 00:14:38.640
Yeah,
487
00:14:38.750 --> 00:14:39.820
that's what I was thinking,
488
00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:40.700
like when
489
00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:41.700
she
490
00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:42.460
was.
491
00:14:42.929 --> 00:14:43.400
You know,
492
00:14:43.530 --> 00:14:46.590
snoring and making the noises and not dying,
493
00:14:46.880 --> 00:14:48.109
and this is all like so
494
00:14:48.210 --> 00:14:49.250
uncomfortable to talk about,
495
00:14:49.330 --> 00:14:50.900
but it's just it is what it is.
496
00:14:50.969 --> 00:14:51.349
I mean,
497
00:14:51.969 --> 00:14:53.549
I would have thought there was like another
498
00:14:54.210 --> 00:14:54.729
step like,
499
00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:55.010
OK,
500
00:14:55.130 --> 00:14:56.530
that drug didn't work,
501
00:14:56.849 --> 00:14:59.309
we're going to a more extreme measure now
502
00:14:59.929 --> 00:15:00.429
because,
503
00:15:00.650 --> 00:15:00.849
you know,
504
00:15:00.929 --> 00:15:02.270
we have to get this done.
505
00:15:02.570 --> 00:15:03.090
Mhm.
506
00:15:04.039 --> 00:15:04.500
Well,
507
00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:05.349
it's,
508
00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:06.880
if it's just,
509
00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:08.679
if the drug is what was the problem,
510
00:15:08.760 --> 00:15:09.080
yes,
511
00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:10.099
that would be the case.
512
00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:10.989
But,
513
00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:11.539
um,
514
00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:12.559
you know,
515
00:15:12.640 --> 00:15:14.039
the other issue that's come up and,
516
00:15:14.099 --> 00:15:16.359
and a lot of us have been very concerned about this in,
517
00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:16.890
in,
518
00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:17.710
uh,
519
00:15:17.719 --> 00:15:18.650
on the um
520
00:15:19.309 --> 00:15:19.619
The,
521
00:15:19.630 --> 00:15:19.859
uh,
522
00:15:19.869 --> 00:15:22.419
inmate advocacy side that I work on is that,
523
00:15:22.469 --> 00:15:22.849
uh,
524
00:15:23.109 --> 00:15:23.450
look,
525
00:15:24.469 --> 00:15:24.669
the,
526
00:15:24.789 --> 00:15:25.289
these,
527
00:15:25.510 --> 00:15:27.690
these people are hard to get venous access on.
528
00:15:27.750 --> 00:15:29.210
They've been sitting in a cell
529
00:15:29.549 --> 00:15:30.309
for 25,
530
00:15:30.390 --> 00:15:31.409
30 years,
531
00:15:31.669 --> 00:15:32.210
um,
532
00:15:32.590 --> 00:15:32.859
and,
533
00:15:32.869 --> 00:15:33.409
uh,
534
00:15:33.450 --> 00:15:34.549
minimal exercise,
535
00:15:34.669 --> 00:15:35.419
eating too much,
536
00:15:35.520 --> 00:15:35.739
they,
537
00:15:36.070 --> 00:15:36.590
their veins,
538
00:15:36.669 --> 00:15:36.830
they,
539
00:15:36.950 --> 00:15:38.570
they just don't have good venous access.
540
00:15:38.630 --> 00:15:40.210
You need somebody who's really good.
541
00:15:40.609 --> 00:15:43.549
To get a good intravenous line in these people,
542
00:15:43.869 --> 00:15:44.320
um,
543
00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:47.859
so that you can deliver a massive amount of drug very quickly.
544
00:15:48.090 --> 00:15:50.119
That's what's needed in order to make the
545
00:15:50.299 --> 00:15:51.719
execution effective.
546
00:15:52.219 --> 00:15:52.780
Um,
547
00:15:53.380 --> 00:15:53.640
and,
548
00:15:53.650 --> 00:15:53.940
uh,
549
00:15:53.950 --> 00:15:55.630
so if the problem was that they didn't have
550
00:15:55.770 --> 00:15:57.080
adequate venous access,
551
00:15:57.619 --> 00:15:57.859
uh,
552
00:15:57.950 --> 00:16:00.530
it doesn't matter how much of whatever drug we poured into the,
553
00:16:00.669 --> 00:16:01.099
the,
554
00:16:01.380 --> 00:16:01.450
uh,
555
00:16:01.500 --> 00:16:02.340
the condemned person,
556
00:16:02.419 --> 00:16:03.419
it's not going to kill them,
557
00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:04.479
it's just going to be,
558
00:16:05.570 --> 00:16:06.090
You know,
559
00:16:07.539 --> 00:16:08.650
A clown show of,
560
00:16:08.719 --> 00:16:11.500
of failures because we don't have the actual access.
561
00:16:11.900 --> 00:16:12.340
Um,
562
00:16:12.380 --> 00:16:14.799
and this is one of the primary complaints
563
00:16:15.099 --> 00:16:17.190
that inmates that uh I've worked on their cases.
564
00:16:17.299 --> 00:16:18.960
This is one of the primary complaints about
565
00:16:19.219 --> 00:16:21.130
uh lethal injection protocols that,
566
00:16:21.219 --> 00:16:21.530
that,
567
00:16:21.539 --> 00:16:21.960
uh,
568
00:16:22.299 --> 00:16:24.359
venous access has failed in so many cases.
569
00:16:25.190 --> 00:16:26.190
You're an ER doctor,
570
00:16:26.270 --> 00:16:26.590
right?
571
00:16:26.909 --> 00:16:27.669
That's correct.
572
00:16:28.909 --> 00:16:30.799
So I guess doctors
573
00:16:30.940 --> 00:16:31.380
take an oath,
574
00:16:31.429 --> 00:16:31.630
right?
575
00:16:31.710 --> 00:16:34.049
I'm just thinking when she got to the hospital,
576
00:16:34.830 --> 00:16:36.729
it's now their job to try to save her.
577
00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:37.429
Yeah,
578
00:16:37.549 --> 00:16:37.559
we,
579
00:16:38.469 --> 00:16:38.630
yeah,
580
00:16:38.710 --> 00:16:40.450
if she'd come to my ER I'd be
581
00:16:40.750 --> 00:16:42.630
doing what is necessary to,
582
00:16:42.760 --> 00:16:44.330
to stabilize her and,
583
00:16:44.669 --> 00:16:45.940
and get her to come around.
584
00:16:46.030 --> 00:16:46.270
And,
585
00:16:46.309 --> 00:16:46.700
you know,
586
00:16:46.989 --> 00:16:47.830
realistically,
587
00:16:47.909 --> 00:16:48.330
uh,
588
00:16:48.909 --> 00:16:50.909
phenobarbital overdoses
589
00:16:51.109 --> 00:16:52.059
aren't that common anymore,
590
00:16:52.109 --> 00:16:53.289
but I've seen them in the past,
591
00:16:53.429 --> 00:16:53.590
and,
592
00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:54.140
and I've,
593
00:16:54.150 --> 00:16:54.530
uh,
594
00:16:54.950 --> 00:16:55.380
Uh,
595
00:16:55.429 --> 00:16:58.969
I've stabilized people with massive phenobarbital overdoses who,
596
00:16:59.489 --> 00:16:59.880
who spend a,
597
00:16:59.989 --> 00:17:02.570
a day or two in the ICU and wake up and they're
598
00:17:02.869 --> 00:17:03.950
back to normal again.
599
00:17:04.108 --> 00:17:04.348
So,
600
00:17:04.550 --> 00:17:04.979
basically,
601
00:17:05.030 --> 00:17:06.030
just a very deep sleep,
602
00:17:06.108 --> 00:17:07.368
a very deep sedation.
603
00:17:08.030 --> 00:17:09.469
That may be all she's dealing with,
604
00:17:09.579 --> 00:17:09.829
but
605
00:17:09.989 --> 00:17:11.189
she's certainly not,
606
00:17:11.469 --> 00:17:12.229
uh,
607
00:17:12.348 --> 00:17:12.550
you know,
608
00:17:12.750 --> 00:17:15.229
she came into my ER I would do what I could to stabilize her.
609
00:17:15.348 --> 00:17:15.709
Uh,
610
00:17:15.829 --> 00:17:17.530
that's my obligation as a physician.
611
00:17:17.989 --> 00:17:19.500
How do you do that with,
612
00:17:19.510 --> 00:17:19.969
uh,
613
00:17:20.510 --> 00:17:21.260
with this drug?
614
00:17:21.390 --> 00:17:21.469
What,
615
00:17:21.550 --> 00:17:22.709
what would the treatment be?
616
00:17:23.167 --> 00:17:23.288
Well,
617
00:17:23.368 --> 00:17:25.648
it's like any other uh anesthetic drug,
618
00:17:25.729 --> 00:17:27.838
if this is a person who's taken an overdose of,
619
00:17:27.948 --> 00:17:31.568
of uh any um anesthetic or highly sedating drug,
620
00:17:31.909 --> 00:17:32.409
um,
621
00:17:32.529 --> 00:17:33.688
stabilize circulation,
622
00:17:33.769 --> 00:17:35.328
make sure their airway is protected.
623
00:17:35.699 --> 00:17:36.040
Uh,
624
00:17:36.140 --> 00:17:38.849
put an endotracheal tube in if they're not able to protect the airway.
625
00:17:38.930 --> 00:17:40.099
If they are protecting the airway,
626
00:17:40.180 --> 00:17:40.459
just
627
00:17:40.829 --> 00:17:41.790
provide oxygen.
628
00:17:41.890 --> 00:17:42.439
Um,
629
00:17:42.709 --> 00:17:43.040
if
630
00:17:43.250 --> 00:17:43.739
cardio,
631
00:17:43.819 --> 00:17:44.229
uh,
632
00:17:44.260 --> 00:17:46.079
cardiac support is required,
633
00:17:46.349 --> 00:17:46.800
uh,
634
00:17:47.209 --> 00:17:49.449
medications to stabilize the heartbeat and so forth,
635
00:17:49.900 --> 00:17:51.400
which I wouldn't expect to be a problem
636
00:17:51.739 --> 00:17:54.140
with this drug in a young person like she is.
637
00:17:54.500 --> 00:17:54.930
Um,
638
00:17:55.219 --> 00:17:57.160
it would really just be a matter of supporting
639
00:17:57.280 --> 00:17:58.430
ventilation until,
640
00:17:58.540 --> 00:17:58.810
uh,
641
00:17:58.819 --> 00:18:00.280
she wakes up enough that we can,
642
00:18:00.540 --> 00:18:00.729
uh,
643
00:18:00.739 --> 00:18:01.920
let her breathe room air.
644
00:18:02.380 --> 00:18:04.319
So we may see her come out of this,
645
00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:04.939
um,
646
00:18:05.410 --> 00:18:06.410
Like fully
647
00:18:07.369 --> 00:18:08.619
And that's certainly a possibility.
648
00:18:08.660 --> 00:18:09.189
It's hard.
649
00:18:09.380 --> 00:18:11.619
I can't speculate because I don't know how,
650
00:18:11.900 --> 00:18:12.250
how,
651
00:18:12.260 --> 00:18:12.560
uh,
652
00:18:12.569 --> 00:18:15.199
hypoxic she got in the execution chamber.
653
00:18:15.500 --> 00:18:15.699
Uh,
654
00:18:15.780 --> 00:18:18.520
if she became very hypoxic and sustained hypoxic or
655
00:18:18.670 --> 00:18:20.099
anoxic brain damage,
656
00:18:20.420 --> 00:18:20.780
uh,
657
00:18:20.939 --> 00:18:21.060
no,
658
00:18:21.170 --> 00:18:21.819
she may not come out.
659
00:18:21.900 --> 00:18:23.760
She may remain in a coma of some kind,
660
00:18:24.060 --> 00:18:24.979
or in a
661
00:18:25.219 --> 00:18:26.420
persistent vegetative state,
662
00:18:26.500 --> 00:18:27.319
shall we say.
663
00:18:27.569 --> 00:18:27.739
Uh,
664
00:18:27.819 --> 00:18:29.810
she may be conscious but unable to communicate.
665
00:18:29.859 --> 00:18:29.979
I mean,
666
00:18:30.050 --> 00:18:31.959
there's a whole range of possibilities.
667
00:18:32.180 --> 00:18:34.140
But since we don't know what actually happened,
668
00:18:34.530 --> 00:18:34.819
In the,
669
00:18:34.900 --> 00:18:36.319
in the execution chamber,
670
00:18:36.540 --> 00:18:37.660
it's just guesswork.
671
00:18:38.550 --> 00:18:40.339
And you're an expert on the firing squad,
672
00:18:40.390 --> 00:18:42.569
which I've read is arguably
673
00:18:42.709 --> 00:18:44.010
the most humane
674
00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:45.449
form of
675
00:18:45.630 --> 00:18:46.689
execution.
676
00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:47.380
Uh,
677
00:18:47.390 --> 00:18:47.750
uh,
678
00:18:48.229 --> 00:18:49.250
is that correct?
679
00:18:49.829 --> 00:18:49.989
I,
680
00:18:50.109 --> 00:18:50.910
I believe it's,
681
00:18:50.989 --> 00:18:53.300
it's among the most,
682
00:18:53.310 --> 00:18:54.979
more humane methods that are available to us,
683
00:18:55.069 --> 00:18:55.569
yes.
684
00:18:55.849 --> 00:18:56.390
Um,
685
00:18:56.790 --> 00:18:56.949
the,
686
00:18:57.030 --> 00:18:57.589
the.
687
00:18:59.030 --> 00:18:59.619
And you get,
688
00:18:59.670 --> 00:19:00.989
you get arguments from people,
689
00:19:01.069 --> 00:19:02.750
experts in physiology and anatomy,
690
00:19:02.760 --> 00:19:03.459
and so forth.
691
00:19:03.750 --> 00:19:04.060
And,
692
00:19:04.189 --> 00:19:05.229
and we can go back and forth.
693
00:19:05.310 --> 00:19:05.589
But I,
694
00:19:05.670 --> 00:19:08.089
I think it's pretty clear that the two most
695
00:19:08.670 --> 00:19:12.250
effective ways of bringing about rapid death by traumatic means
696
00:19:12.510 --> 00:19:13.089
would be,
697
00:19:13.109 --> 00:19:13.489
uh,
698
00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:15.349
decapitation with the guillotine.
699
00:19:15.750 --> 00:19:16.229
Uh,
700
00:19:16.310 --> 00:19:18.689
and then firing squad with destruction of the heart
701
00:19:19.109 --> 00:19:21.170
would be the two most rapid
702
00:19:21.489 --> 00:19:25.250
firing squad probably being less painful or even painless,
703
00:19:25.469 --> 00:19:25.619
uh,
704
00:19:25.829 --> 00:19:28.489
because of the damage of the bullets due to the nervous system
705
00:19:28.750 --> 00:19:29.630
in the process,
706
00:19:29.750 --> 00:19:29.989
but,
707
00:19:30.030 --> 00:19:30.349
uh,
708
00:19:30.510 --> 00:19:32.089
both of them are gonna be very quick.
709
00:19:32.550 --> 00:19:33.829
What about electric chair?
710
00:19:33.949 --> 00:19:34.819
Cause I'm from Florida.
711
00:19:34.829 --> 00:19:35.709
I remember growing up,
712
00:19:35.869 --> 00:19:36.030
you know,
713
00:19:36.109 --> 00:19:36.949
that I would use that.
714
00:19:36.969 --> 00:19:38.290
I heard about that as a kid.
715
00:19:38.949 --> 00:19:40.609
Have you ever had a bad electric shock,
716
00:19:40.739 --> 00:19:41.150
Brian?
717
00:19:42.010 --> 00:19:43.439
I've had it like from an outlet.
718
00:19:43.790 --> 00:19:44.050
Yeah,
719
00:19:44.170 --> 00:19:44.560
OK,
720
00:19:44.729 --> 00:19:45.369
not terrible,
721
00:19:45.410 --> 00:19:45.719
but just,
722
00:19:45.750 --> 00:19:45.890
you know,
723
00:19:45.959 --> 00:19:46.439
I've had it,
724
00:19:46.489 --> 00:19:46.890
yeah.
725
00:19:47.469 --> 00:19:47.599
And when,
726
00:19:47.650 --> 00:19:49.729
when you get people who've had bad electric shocks,
727
00:19:50.130 --> 00:19:52.609
they find it very unpleasant,
728
00:19:52.729 --> 00:19:53.670
very noxious,
729
00:19:53.930 --> 00:19:55.410
even if they don't remember it,
730
00:19:55.489 --> 00:19:56.250
they can be,
731
00:19:56.650 --> 00:19:56.770
they're,
732
00:19:56.890 --> 00:19:57.089
they're,
733
00:19:57.189 --> 00:19:57.849
they're still,
734
00:19:58.010 --> 00:19:59.949
they have some level of memory of it.
735
00:20:00.130 --> 00:20:00.410
I think,
736
00:20:00.530 --> 00:20:01.329
I think electrocution,
737
00:20:01.410 --> 00:20:04.609
death by electrocution from every piece of evidence I've looked at it,
738
00:20:04.729 --> 00:20:05.010
it's,
739
00:20:05.099 --> 00:20:06.119
it's very painful.
740
00:20:06.329 --> 00:20:07.430
It's not quick,
741
00:20:07.689 --> 00:20:08.209
um.
742
00:20:08.660 --> 00:20:08.900
And,
743
00:20:08.979 --> 00:20:09.660
and I think it's,
744
00:20:09.699 --> 00:20:11.319
it's a pretty nasty way to go.
745
00:20:11.699 --> 00:20:12.859
Not as nasty as others,
746
00:20:12.939 --> 00:20:13.260
but it's,
747
00:20:13.329 --> 00:20:14.060
it's pretty rough.
748
00:20:15.229 --> 00:20:15.880
And just lastly,
749
00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:16.479
Doctor William,
750
00:20:16.560 --> 00:20:16.790
I mean,
751
00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:17.219
just
752
00:20:17.660 --> 00:20:19.140
since you study all of this.
753
00:20:20.040 --> 00:20:24.089
I think the public is disturbed regardless of how you feel about the death penalty.
754
00:20:24.170 --> 00:20:24.400
I mean,
755
00:20:24.410 --> 00:20:26.040
this is kind of just a shocking thing.
756
00:20:26.060 --> 00:20:26.430
I mean,
757
00:20:26.930 --> 00:20:27.790
does this
758
00:20:28.410 --> 00:20:29.170
surprise you?
759
00:20:29.280 --> 00:20:32.209
It is because I've read some people say this is unprecedented.
760
00:20:32.290 --> 00:20:32.750
I mean,
761
00:20:33.030 --> 00:20:33.579
like,
762
00:20:34.550 --> 00:20:37.790
are you surprised by the kind of this situation she's in now?
763
00:20:38.329 --> 00:20:38.410
No,
764
00:20:38.489 --> 00:20:39.250
we've been seeing this,
765
00:20:39.329 --> 00:20:39.930
this,
766
00:20:40.130 --> 00:20:40.550
this,
767
00:20:40.770 --> 00:20:42.989
her case is perhaps the most uh.
768
00:20:44.859 --> 00:20:44.969
Well,
769
00:20:45.130 --> 00:20:46.180
certainly the most publicized.
770
00:20:46.260 --> 00:20:47.810
Everybody in America has heard of it by now,
771
00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:48.160
but
772
00:20:48.300 --> 00:20:49.880
there have been numerous
773
00:20:50.099 --> 00:20:53.469
uh lethal injection executions that have gone off very poorly,
774
00:20:53.479 --> 00:20:53.959
where the,
775
00:20:54.339 --> 00:20:54.989
uh,
776
00:20:55.030 --> 00:20:55.219
the,
777
00:20:55.260 --> 00:20:55.739
the patient,
778
00:20:55.979 --> 00:20:56.130
sorry,
779
00:20:56.180 --> 00:20:59.599
the condemned person has been conscious for 40 minutes to 1 hour,
780
00:21:00.099 --> 00:21:00.560
um,
781
00:21:01.099 --> 00:21:03.180
or at least still alive for that length of time and,
782
00:21:03.219 --> 00:21:04.119
and suffering.
783
00:21:04.420 --> 00:21:04.880
Um,
784
00:21:05.020 --> 00:21:06.300
we know there's a problem with this.
785
00:21:06.339 --> 00:21:06.660
This is,
786
00:21:06.739 --> 00:21:09.280
this has been brewing for quite some time.
787
00:21:09.469 --> 00:21:09.699
Ever,
788
00:21:09.780 --> 00:21:11.140
ever since the
789
00:21:11.380 --> 00:21:13.449
pharmaceutical companies were lobbied,
790
00:21:13.500 --> 00:21:14.030
uh,
791
00:21:14.739 --> 00:21:17.530
by activists to not sell these drugs,
792
00:21:17.650 --> 00:21:17.810
the,
793
00:21:17.949 --> 00:21:18.069
the,
794
00:21:18.130 --> 00:21:18.280
the,
795
00:21:18.339 --> 00:21:19.400
the lethal injection drugs,
796
00:21:19.449 --> 00:21:20.530
the Departments of Corrections.
797
00:21:20.810 --> 00:21:24.479
The initial three-drug protocol developed by Doctor Chapman worked very well,
798
00:21:24.849 --> 00:21:26.729
and I think most states would still be using it,
799
00:21:26.849 --> 00:21:27.010
if,
800
00:21:27.130 --> 00:21:30.270
if the pharmaceutical companies would actually sell them the drugs.
801
00:21:30.689 --> 00:21:30.849
So,
802
00:21:30.890 --> 00:21:32.770
I think we've got in a position where we were,
803
00:21:33.130 --> 00:21:33.329
uh,
804
00:21:33.339 --> 00:21:36.550
those of us who were trying to stop executions altogether by,
805
00:21:36.969 --> 00:21:37.589
um,
806
00:21:38.530 --> 00:21:40.310
Banning the drugs have
807
00:21:40.930 --> 00:21:41.410
developed a,
808
00:21:41.520 --> 00:21:44.089
a very nasty unintended consequence that is
809
00:21:44.089 --> 00:21:46.130
causing very great suffering on the part
810
00:21:46.250 --> 00:21:47.550
of these condemned persons.
811
00:21:48.790 --> 00:21:48.869
Well,
812
00:21:48.949 --> 00:21:49.619
I appreciate your time,
813
00:21:49.709 --> 00:21:50.189
Doctor William.
814
00:21:50.229 --> 00:21:51.050
You really helped
815
00:21:51.310 --> 00:21:51.949
me understand it,
816
00:21:52.030 --> 00:21:53.000
so thank you very much.
817
00:21:53.229 --> 00:21:53.989
I'm glad to help out,
818
00:21:54.069 --> 00:21:54.310
Brian.
819
00:21:54.420 --> 00:21:55.069
Good speaking with you.
820
00:21:55.189 --> 00:21:58.829
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Really appreciate Doctor William uh for taking the time to talk with me.
861
00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:17.770
I'm gonna get,
862
00:23:17.859 --> 00:23:19.140
he was talking about the firing squad.
863
00:23:19.180 --> 00:23:22.540
I'm gonna get more into that later in this episode in detail.
864
00:23:22.619 --> 00:23:25.579
I actually have someone who witnessed a firing squad who I'm gonna talk to.
865
00:23:25.770 --> 00:23:26.900
It's gonna explain what that was like,
866
00:23:27.060 --> 00:23:28.170
especially in connection to this,
867
00:23:28.219 --> 00:23:29.280
this lethal injection,
868
00:23:29.949 --> 00:23:30.339
um.
869
00:23:30.699 --> 00:23:30.709
But
870
00:23:31.660 --> 00:23:33.920
another big question is what happens legally
871
00:23:34.260 --> 00:23:36.890
for Christa Pike now if she comes out of this,
872
00:23:37.260 --> 00:23:37.420
um,
873
00:23:37.459 --> 00:23:38.040
this is
874
00:23:38.140 --> 00:23:39.800
a somewhat unprecedented situation.
875
00:23:39.939 --> 00:23:41.890
I want to share my conversation with Jules Epstein.
876
00:23:41.939 --> 00:23:42.979
He's a law professor,
877
00:23:43.060 --> 00:23:44.439
specializes in this kind of law
878
00:23:44.660 --> 00:23:45.699
at Temple University.
879
00:23:45.900 --> 00:23:46.099
Jules,
880
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:48.979
it's nice to meet you and I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me.
881
00:23:49.089 --> 00:23:50.469
I know you've been busy today.
882
00:23:50.729 --> 00:23:50.760
I,
883
00:23:50.859 --> 00:23:51.469
I was,
884
00:23:52.199 --> 00:23:55.349
everybody's kind of enamored by this story with Krista Pike,
885
00:23:55.729 --> 00:23:56.209
um,
886
00:23:56.410 --> 00:23:56.880
and kind of,
887
00:23:56.930 --> 00:23:57.040
I,
888
00:23:57.089 --> 00:23:58.239
I wanted to ask you,
889
00:23:58.569 --> 00:23:58.689
her,
890
00:23:58.770 --> 00:23:59.550
her lawyers,
891
00:23:59.770 --> 00:24:00.000
uh,
892
00:24:00.010 --> 00:24:01.329
had a press conference today.
893
00:24:01.449 --> 00:24:04.449
They don't seem to have much information about her condition,
894
00:24:04.530 --> 00:24:05.609
I guess because of HIPAA,
895
00:24:05.650 --> 00:24:07.489
just very basic information.
896
00:24:07.989 --> 00:24:08.410
Um,
897
00:24:08.449 --> 00:24:10.569
I interviewed an ER doctor though who has
898
00:24:10.569 --> 00:24:12.489
treated overdoses before for that kind of drug,
899
00:24:12.530 --> 00:24:13.910
who says it's very possible
900
00:24:14.339 --> 00:24:15.150
she could be fine
901
00:24:15.530 --> 00:24:16.670
in a matter of days.
902
00:24:17.140 --> 00:24:17.819
Um,
903
00:24:18.189 --> 00:24:19.449
what will happen legally?
904
00:24:19.530 --> 00:24:19.750
I mean,
905
00:24:20.030 --> 00:24:22.640
the governor has said no more executions for the rest of the year,
906
00:24:22.739 --> 00:24:24.260
but how do you see,
907
00:24:24.390 --> 00:24:24.540
like,
908
00:24:24.569 --> 00:24:26.329
what do you think is going to happen next?
909
00:24:26.859 --> 00:24:27.380
OK,
910
00:24:27.550 --> 00:24:27.790
um,
911
00:24:28.310 --> 00:24:30.449
the answer is a whole bunch of stuff,
912
00:24:30.750 --> 00:24:31.349
um,
913
00:24:31.670 --> 00:24:33.729
and I wanna say this respectfully,
914
00:24:34.150 --> 00:24:34.550
um.
915
00:24:35.959 --> 00:24:37.599
Death penalty lawyers,
916
00:24:37.729 --> 00:24:40.729
people representing people facing the death
917
00:24:40.729 --> 00:24:43.130
penalty and certainly facing execution.
918
00:24:43.819 --> 00:24:44.319
Um,
919
00:24:44.859 --> 00:24:46.640
within the limits of ethics,
920
00:24:46.819 --> 00:24:49.219
have to pursue every option that they can.
921
00:24:50.290 --> 00:24:50.729
So
922
00:24:52.209 --> 00:24:54.630
The first thing they're going to do.
923
00:24:55.780 --> 00:24:57.359
Or that they may do,
924
00:24:57.859 --> 00:25:00.359
is go back to the court of appeals.
925
00:25:01.250 --> 00:25:01.949
They were in the court,
926
00:25:02.010 --> 00:25:02.239
OK,
927
00:25:02.329 --> 00:25:02.750
here.
928
00:25:03.849 --> 00:25:04.530
I'm sorry,
929
00:25:05.280 --> 00:25:05.290
no,
930
00:25:05.329 --> 00:25:05.989
take your time,
931
00:25:06.130 --> 00:25:06.469
yeah.
932
00:25:08.810 --> 00:25:13.589
She had previously raised a claim that her lawyers were ineffective.
933
00:25:14.089 --> 00:25:14.709
Why?
934
00:25:15.410 --> 00:25:18.650
Because when you represent a death penalty client
935
00:25:18.650 --> 00:25:20.589
and you're trying to save their lives.
936
00:25:21.849 --> 00:25:26.640
When there's background information that they themselves have been victimized,
937
00:25:26.729 --> 00:25:27.910
traumatized.
938
00:25:28.719 --> 00:25:29.319
Um,
939
00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:33.599
It doesn't excuse the conduct,
940
00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:35.380
but it may explain
941
00:25:35.800 --> 00:25:39.540
what happened to them that put them in the place where they were,
942
00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:42.040
and that's called mitigation evidence.
943
00:25:43.489 --> 00:25:46.959
And lawyers are supposed to do a deep dive into that.
944
00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:48.250
Apparently,
945
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:50.479
her claim was my lawyers didn't.
946
00:25:50.959 --> 00:25:53.010
And it turns out this woman had a,
947
00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:53.520
as,
948
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:57.310
as about as tragic uh uh growing up as anybody could.
949
00:25:59.609 --> 00:26:00.729
The state,
950
00:26:01.010 --> 00:26:03.209
according to the pleadings I've read,
951
00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:06.170
disputed that and indeed called her a liar.
952
00:26:07.449 --> 00:26:09.630
So she lost those appeals.
953
00:26:10.729 --> 00:26:13.849
At a recent separate proceeding,
954
00:26:13.930 --> 00:26:16.000
the state conceded.
955
00:26:16.790 --> 00:26:16.989
Yeah,
956
00:26:17.150 --> 00:26:18.010
she had this
957
00:26:18.189 --> 00:26:19.609
very traumatic life.
958
00:26:21.109 --> 00:26:23.949
And so her lawyers tried to go back to court.
959
00:26:25.060 --> 00:26:27.680
This is where it gets incredibly complicated.
960
00:26:28.180 --> 00:26:29.540
She had one habeas.
961
00:26:31.109 --> 00:26:31.709
They're saying,
962
00:26:31.869 --> 00:26:32.069
hey,
963
00:26:32.150 --> 00:26:34.660
it's a lot harder to do habeas number 2.
964
00:26:34.989 --> 00:26:35.380
They're saying,
965
00:26:35.430 --> 00:26:35.709
no,
966
00:26:35.869 --> 00:26:37.510
we're doing habeas #1,
967
00:26:37.630 --> 00:26:39.410
we're moving it to reopen it
968
00:26:39.869 --> 00:26:40.329
because
969
00:26:40.430 --> 00:26:43.050
you're contradicting what you said before.
970
00:26:43.630 --> 00:26:45.369
The federal judge said,
971
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:45.790
no,
972
00:26:45.910 --> 00:26:46.760
this is habeas
973
00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:47.650
2.
974
00:26:48.300 --> 00:26:50.530
The 6th Circuit said no,
975
00:26:50.819 --> 00:26:52.280
we should examine
976
00:26:52.540 --> 00:26:55.680
whether this really was a misrepresentation
977
00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:57.400
so that maybe you can
978
00:26:57.619 --> 00:27:01.000
properly revive habeas number 1,
979
00:27:01.140 --> 00:27:03.000
and we can look at these
980
00:27:03.339 --> 00:27:05.439
really serious allegations
981
00:27:05.699 --> 00:27:07.660
of deficient representation.
982
00:27:09.479 --> 00:27:11.520
The Supreme Court stayed that,
983
00:27:11.739 --> 00:27:12.079
said no,
984
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:13.319
go ahead with the execution,
985
00:27:13.560 --> 00:27:15.739
but now the execution is on hold.
986
00:27:16.040 --> 00:27:17.430
My understanding,
987
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:19.329
and I've checked with a colleague
988
00:27:19.520 --> 00:27:21.300
who's a federal death penalty
989
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:22.900
habeas litigator,
990
00:27:23.280 --> 00:27:25.959
is they can now go back to the 6th Circuit
991
00:27:26.239 --> 00:27:27.209
and say,
992
00:27:27.800 --> 00:27:28.469
OK,
993
00:27:28.839 --> 00:27:30.619
send us back to the judge
994
00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:31.260
to
995
00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:33.030
look at this more in depth.
996
00:27:33.239 --> 00:27:34.359
That's option one.
997
00:27:35.569 --> 00:27:36.880
Option 2.
998
00:27:37.699 --> 00:27:41.599
I hope she comes out of this physically well.
999
00:27:43.660 --> 00:27:46.739
If it comes out that she suffered brain damage,
1000
00:27:46.829 --> 00:27:48.910
and I'm not suggesting that's likely,
1001
00:27:48.989 --> 00:27:50.119
you've talked to experts,
1002
00:27:50.189 --> 00:27:51.699
I don't pretend to know.
1003
00:27:52.069 --> 00:27:52.150
Yeah,
1004
00:27:52.229 --> 00:27:53.109
but it's possible.
1005
00:27:53.270 --> 00:27:54.609
It is possible.
1006
00:27:56.030 --> 00:28:02.569
If a person has brain damage to the extent that they can no longer be cognizant
1007
00:28:02.949 --> 00:28:04.329
or appreciative
1008
00:28:04.579 --> 00:28:04.739
that,
1009
00:28:04.869 --> 00:28:04.989
oh,
1010
00:28:05.069 --> 00:28:06.530
I'm being executed,
1011
00:28:07.189 --> 00:28:08.599
you can't execute.
1012
00:28:09.550 --> 00:28:10.030
And
1013
00:28:10.290 --> 00:28:13.239
a person who is incompetent in that way.
1014
00:28:13.530 --> 00:28:16.709
There is a US Supreme Court case from decades ago called
1015
00:28:17.209 --> 00:28:19.020
Ford versus Wainwright,
1016
00:28:19.449 --> 00:28:20.189
which said
1017
00:28:20.329 --> 00:28:22.790
you can't execute someone who
1018
00:28:23.010 --> 00:28:25.959
maybe they weren't insane at the time of the crime,
1019
00:28:26.199 --> 00:28:28.209
they weren't insane at the time of sentencing,
1020
00:28:28.489 --> 00:28:30.329
but if they're so mentally ill
1021
00:28:30.609 --> 00:28:32.569
that they can't appreciate.
1022
00:28:33.449 --> 00:28:33.459
That
1023
00:28:34.369 --> 00:28:36.010
why they're being executed,
1024
00:28:36.170 --> 00:28:37.890
that they're being executed,
1025
00:28:38.449 --> 00:28:39.869
that it's just this.
1026
00:28:40.959 --> 00:28:41.189
Uh,
1027
00:28:41.280 --> 00:28:42.150
this is my word,
1028
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:42.910
garish,
1029
00:28:42.989 --> 00:28:43.979
horrific thing
1030
00:28:44.560 --> 00:28:48.060
to execute someone who doesn't even understand what's going on.
1031
00:28:49.150 --> 00:28:49.280
Uh for,
1032
00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:50.719
from her personal health,
1033
00:28:50.959 --> 00:28:53.079
of course we don't wish that upon her,
1034
00:28:53.420 --> 00:28:54.939
but if that's a consequence,
1035
00:28:55.439 --> 00:28:56.339
they have a claim.
1036
00:28:57.219 --> 00:28:58.780
Then there's another claim.
1037
00:29:00.430 --> 00:29:01.670
They can claim.
1038
00:29:02.589 --> 00:29:06.109
That it is a violation of due process.
1039
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:09.680
A violation of the 8th Amendment
1040
00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:12.760
to try and execute me a 2nd time
1041
00:29:13.099 --> 00:29:14.780
after a 1st attempt
1042
00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:15.719
failed.
1043
00:29:16.819 --> 00:29:17.780
Until this happened,
1044
00:29:17.900 --> 00:29:19.319
I didn't even know this.
1045
00:29:19.660 --> 00:29:22.680
There is one such case in American history
1046
00:29:22.900 --> 00:29:24.839
that went to the US Supreme Court
1047
00:29:25.020 --> 00:29:26.760
in the 1940s.
1048
00:29:28.290 --> 00:29:31.630
And it was a case that was 5 to 4,
1049
00:29:32.209 --> 00:29:33.250
where the court said,
1050
00:29:33.369 --> 00:29:35.010
and this is horrible language,
1051
00:29:35.130 --> 00:29:36.089
my words really,
1052
00:29:36.250 --> 00:29:37.709
a do-over is OK.
1053
00:29:38.699 --> 00:29:39.270
But they,
1054
00:29:39.510 --> 00:29:41.270
they made clear in that case,
1055
00:29:41.349 --> 00:29:43.099
it was an electric chair case.
1056
00:29:43.390 --> 00:29:45.849
The electricity never reached the person.
1057
00:29:46.189 --> 00:29:47.569
There was a faulty switch.
1058
00:29:49.219 --> 00:29:52.380
This is a person who suffered severely.
1059
00:29:54.229 --> 00:29:55.609
So there was real
1060
00:29:56.069 --> 00:29:58.709
physical and psychological trauma,
1061
00:29:59.030 --> 00:30:03.229
which may make that case distinguishable or inapplicable.
1062
00:30:04.239 --> 00:30:06.400
They may also have a claim
1063
00:30:06.719 --> 00:30:09.910
to bar execution under this method
1064
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:11.660
because it doesn't work.
1065
00:30:12.910 --> 00:30:13.750
So there are,
1066
00:30:14.069 --> 00:30:16.550
those are the four legal challenges.
1067
00:30:17.030 --> 00:30:17.349
Oh,
1068
00:30:17.510 --> 00:30:18.689
and of course,
1069
00:30:19.270 --> 00:30:19.819
now,
1070
00:30:19.989 --> 00:30:22.069
having gone through this horror,
1071
00:30:22.550 --> 00:30:25.390
her lawyers could go back to the governor and say,
1072
00:30:25.829 --> 00:30:28.099
please commute the death sentence.
1073
00:30:28.270 --> 00:30:29.310
Enough already.
1074
00:30:30.229 --> 00:30:32.390
I think those are the 5
1075
00:30:33.420 --> 00:30:33.989
legal options,
1076
00:30:34.109 --> 00:30:34.869
Brian,
1077
00:30:35.469 --> 00:30:37.050
that um are possible.
1078
00:30:37.750 --> 00:30:39.359
If she suffered,
1079
00:30:39.589 --> 00:30:40.170
which
1080
00:30:40.910 --> 00:30:41.380
I mean,
1081
00:30:41.449 --> 00:30:43.069
it seems like she probably did,
1082
00:30:43.089 --> 00:30:44.869
and regardless of how you feel about the death penalty,
1083
00:30:44.949 --> 00:30:46.560
even if you wanted her to die,
1084
00:30:46.790 --> 00:30:49.089
I think it's pretty obvious she probably did suffer,
1085
00:30:49.390 --> 00:30:49.709
um,
1086
00:30:49.910 --> 00:30:50.849
she didn't die.
1087
00:30:51.790 --> 00:30:52.569
Does that
1088
00:30:52.989 --> 00:30:53.579
matter?
1089
00:30:53.790 --> 00:30:53.910
It,
1090
00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:54.550
it
1091
00:30:54.709 --> 00:30:57.219
does that matter to one of these legal arguments?
1092
00:30:57.869 --> 00:30:59.359
So it matters.
1093
00:31:02.030 --> 00:31:06.000
It matters if 5 Supreme Court justices say it matters,
1094
00:31:06.239 --> 00:31:07.979
and forgive me for that,
1095
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:08.420
um.
1096
00:31:09.650 --> 00:31:10.849
Caustic remark,
1097
00:31:10.959 --> 00:31:11.449
OK,
1098
00:31:11.810 --> 00:31:15.709
but if you go back and read that 1940s
1099
00:31:16.069 --> 00:31:17.510
US Supreme Court decision.
1100
00:31:19.530 --> 00:31:22.989
That seemed to sway the folks who voted
1101
00:31:23.569 --> 00:31:25.290
against that individual.
1102
00:31:25.530 --> 00:31:26.489
He hadn't suffered.
1103
00:31:27.780 --> 00:31:28.439
Um
1104
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:29.170
There
1105
00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:31.400
there are a couple of other things,
1106
00:31:31.560 --> 00:31:32.099
OK?
1107
00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:35.609
After the 1940s,
1108
00:31:35.780 --> 00:31:38.300
death penalty law evolved.
1109
00:31:39.099 --> 00:31:39.829
Um
1110
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:44.199
There are some people who want to walk it back on the court,
1111
00:31:44.310 --> 00:31:46.619
but death penalty law evolved,
1112
00:31:47.079 --> 00:31:47.500
um,
1113
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:48.819
to
1114
00:31:49.569 --> 00:31:51.449
A notion of.
1115
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:53.430
And I'm
1116
00:31:53.770 --> 00:31:55.130
blanking on the phrase now.
1117
00:31:55.170 --> 00:31:56.199
I'm quite embarrassed,
1118
00:31:56.280 --> 00:31:56.670
but
1119
00:31:57.329 --> 00:31:58.569
sort of emerging,
1120
00:31:58.729 --> 00:32:01.329
emerging notions of decency,
1121
00:32:01.449 --> 00:32:01.869
right?
1122
00:32:02.250 --> 00:32:04.030
That what may have been
1123
00:32:04.650 --> 00:32:06.510
not cruel and unusual
1124
00:32:06.689 --> 00:32:07.310
in the
1125
00:32:07.890 --> 00:32:09.369
barbaric era
1126
00:32:09.569 --> 00:32:11.660
may be cruel and unusual now,
1127
00:32:12.209 --> 00:32:14.469
so that it's called the evolving
1128
00:32:14.689 --> 00:32:17.209
notions of decency or something like that.
1129
00:32:17.430 --> 00:32:17.479
Interesting.
1130
00:32:18.130 --> 00:32:20.390
And so a court might say,
1131
00:32:20.890 --> 00:32:22.290
We can ignore
1132
00:32:22.449 --> 00:32:24.310
that 1940s decision,
1133
00:32:24.930 --> 00:32:26.910
or we can embrace it and say,
1134
00:32:27.170 --> 00:32:28.770
this case isn't that,
1135
00:32:29.140 --> 00:32:31.609
precisely because she did suffer.
1136
00:32:33.439 --> 00:32:34.229
One thing,
1137
00:32:34.699 --> 00:32:34.849
you know,
1138
00:32:34.939 --> 00:32:35.829
and I'm not a lawyer,
1139
00:32:36.150 --> 00:32:38.130
and I don't even know if this is a legal question,
1140
00:32:38.209 --> 00:32:38.760
but maybe it is,
1141
00:32:38.829 --> 00:32:42.939
but I guess the thing I'm stuck on with this situation is that
1142
00:32:43.750 --> 00:32:44.270
You know,
1143
00:32:44.670 --> 00:32:46.739
the law wanted to execute her.
1144
00:32:46.790 --> 00:32:46.930
I mean,
1145
00:32:46.949 --> 00:32:48.260
they decided to execute her.
1146
00:32:48.349 --> 00:32:49.489
She's in there.
1147
00:32:49.709 --> 00:32:51.000
It doesn't work,
1148
00:32:51.270 --> 00:32:52.890
and they try twice,
1149
00:32:53.390 --> 00:32:56.329
and then suddenly something happens where
1150
00:32:56.709 --> 00:32:59.829
you've now got people trying to save her.
1151
00:33:00.189 --> 00:33:03.329
So you went from one moment trying to kill her
1152
00:33:03.510 --> 00:33:05.689
to then she's in an ambulance where now
1153
00:33:05.829 --> 00:33:07.890
they're trying to save her life.
1154
00:33:08.930 --> 00:33:09.369
Like,
1155
00:33:09.410 --> 00:33:11.130
I don't know how to process that.
1156
00:33:12.030 --> 00:33:12.430
I
1157
00:33:13.550 --> 00:33:14.319
Is there a legal,
1158
00:33:14.439 --> 00:33:14.599
I mean,
1159
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:16.239
is there something in a law that said,
1160
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:16.560
OK,
1161
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:19.640
at this point you now have to stop trying to kill her,
1162
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:22.079
and now you have to start trying to save her again.
1163
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:22.589
Like,
1164
00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:24.800
it almost seems like shouldn't they have just kept trying
1165
00:33:24.800 --> 00:33:27.660
different methods or something if that was the plan.
1166
00:33:29.130 --> 00:33:29.739
So
1167
00:33:29.890 --> 00:33:31.439
there are limits,
1168
00:33:32.430 --> 00:33:32.439
OK,
1169
00:33:32.849 --> 00:33:34.369
and I'm sorry if that was a dumb question,
1170
00:33:34.530 --> 00:33:36.209
but that's just how my mind keeps going.
1171
00:33:36.369 --> 00:33:37.189
Do me a favor.
1172
00:33:37.369 --> 00:33:42.010
You have drilled down to what some people would call the absurdity of all of this,
1173
00:33:42.089 --> 00:33:42.829
OK,
1174
00:33:43.329 --> 00:33:43.910
um.
1175
00:33:45.859 --> 00:33:49.640
There is a limit to the amount of pain
1176
00:33:49.900 --> 00:33:53.619
that may be inflicted in the execution process.
1177
00:33:54.630 --> 00:33:54.800
Right?
1178
00:33:54.910 --> 00:33:55.719
We can't
1179
00:33:56.150 --> 00:33:56.500
say,
1180
00:33:56.689 --> 00:33:56.869
hi,
1181
00:33:56.949 --> 00:33:59.099
we're gonna torture you for 10 days,
1182
00:33:59.150 --> 00:34:00.869
at the end of which you'll die.
1183
00:34:01.310 --> 00:34:04.640
That's pretty clear from US Supreme Court law.
1184
00:34:05.229 --> 00:34:07.550
So the perversity of it is we have to
1185
00:34:07.550 --> 00:34:10.510
kill you in the relatively painless way possible.
1186
00:34:12.429 --> 00:34:13.889
Once that's not
1187
00:34:14.790 --> 00:34:16.870
I don't even like the word succeeding.
1188
00:34:17.310 --> 00:34:19.310
Once that doesn't happen.
1189
00:34:20.820 --> 00:34:24.840
She is now a person in the custody of the state,
1190
00:34:25.379 --> 00:34:27.239
suffering extreme pain
1191
00:34:27.379 --> 00:34:29.199
when they are the entity
1192
00:34:29.620 --> 00:34:31.620
that is required to protect her.
1193
00:34:33.060 --> 00:34:33.570
Um,
1194
00:34:33.668 --> 00:34:34.978
under the Eighth Amendment,
1195
00:34:35.149 --> 00:34:36.090
if you're in jail,
1196
00:34:36.560 --> 00:34:37.429
and you have a heart attack,
1197
00:34:37.510 --> 00:34:38.780
they can't leave you lying now,
1198
00:34:38.830 --> 00:34:40.208
they have to take you to a doctor.
1199
00:34:40.790 --> 00:34:41.668
If they have cancer,
1200
00:34:41.790 --> 00:34:43.739
they have to get you cancer treatment.
1201
00:34:44.270 --> 00:34:44.580
So,
1202
00:34:44.708 --> 00:34:45.070
yes,
1203
00:34:45.149 --> 00:34:46.510
it became this.
1204
00:34:48.830 --> 00:34:50.550
Maybe the word bizarre is right,
1205
00:34:50.668 --> 00:34:53.228
circumstance where all of a sudden
1206
00:34:53.550 --> 00:34:54.899
we're trying to kill you.
1207
00:34:55.110 --> 00:34:56.010
It didn't work.
1208
00:34:56.780 --> 00:34:57.870
Since it didn't work,
1209
00:34:57.989 --> 00:34:59.310
you're in our care.
1210
00:35:00.010 --> 00:35:01.889
And you're in this bad situation,
1211
00:35:02.120 --> 00:35:04.199
we're not allowed to keep trying,
1212
00:35:04.489 --> 00:35:07.830
cause that will just be crossing that threshold of
1213
00:35:09.310 --> 00:35:12.189
imposing pain and suffering on you.
1214
00:35:13.459 --> 00:35:15.260
So now we have to take care of you.
1215
00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:17.659
Um
1216
00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:20.399
Is that this is unusual,
1217
00:35:20.479 --> 00:35:20.600
right?
1218
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:20.879
I mean,
1219
00:35:20.969 --> 00:35:23.010
I've just read some articles say this is unprecedented,
1220
00:35:23.120 --> 00:35:23.800
but have you,
1221
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:26.060
has this happened quite like this before?
1222
00:35:27.179 --> 00:35:32.040
I went looking online after I got contacted to do to do this.
1223
00:35:32.419 --> 00:35:32.840
Um,
1224
00:35:33.020 --> 00:35:34.310
there have been
1225
00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:37.500
what are some people call botched executions.
1226
00:35:37.580 --> 00:35:39.300
We couldn't find the vein,
1227
00:35:39.699 --> 00:35:40.959
things like that.
1228
00:35:41.290 --> 00:35:41.919
Um,
1229
00:35:42.659 --> 00:35:43.010
I,
1230
00:35:43.139 --> 00:35:44.679
I don't know of one.
1231
00:35:45.530 --> 00:35:46.810
I have not found one.
1232
00:35:46.850 --> 00:35:48.030
It may be out there,
1233
00:35:48.370 --> 00:35:48.889
where,
1234
00:35:49.250 --> 00:35:49.600
hi,
1235
00:35:49.770 --> 00:35:50.689
the medicine,
1236
00:35:50.969 --> 00:35:52.510
medicine is a bad word,
1237
00:35:53.330 --> 00:35:56.429
but this chemical is now in their body.
1238
00:35:57.409 --> 00:35:58.290
And my goodness,
1239
00:35:58.370 --> 00:35:59.399
it's not working.
1240
00:35:59.649 --> 00:36:02.330
The one case I could find was the execution case,
1241
00:36:02.570 --> 00:36:03.179
but that's the,
1242
00:36:03.250 --> 00:36:04.989
the electricity didn't get
1243
00:36:05.570 --> 00:36:07.550
right to the cap on the guy's head.
1244
00:36:08.659 --> 00:36:12.060
And I'm sure people are watching this on both sides of the issue,
1245
00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:12.770
um,
1246
00:36:13.060 --> 00:36:13.340
you know,
1247
00:36:13.419 --> 00:36:15.620
people who are against the death penalty and people
1248
00:36:15.620 --> 00:36:17.850
who are for the death penalty in certain situations,
1249
00:36:18.209 --> 00:36:19.879
but I also think about
1250
00:36:20.020 --> 00:36:21.379
the victim in this case,
1251
00:36:21.500 --> 00:36:21.739
her,
1252
00:36:21.820 --> 00:36:22.060
you know,
1253
00:36:22.179 --> 00:36:23.060
her victim
1254
00:36:23.340 --> 00:36:24.010
mother
1255
00:36:24.340 --> 00:36:25.199
was there
1256
00:36:25.739 --> 00:36:27.000
and has talked about it,
1257
00:36:27.080 --> 00:36:27.659
and
1258
00:36:27.820 --> 00:36:29.199
is very upset
1259
00:36:29.540 --> 00:36:30.040
with,
1260
00:36:30.459 --> 00:36:30.899
with
1261
00:36:31.100 --> 00:36:33.320
the Department of Corrections and with the state,
1262
00:36:33.659 --> 00:36:35.020
and I was just thinking about her,
1263
00:36:35.060 --> 00:36:37.560
you wait all of these years for this moment.
1264
00:36:38.050 --> 00:36:39.540
And I'm sure that's very traumatic,
1265
00:36:39.580 --> 00:36:40.989
and then you go to the prison,
1266
00:36:41.060 --> 00:36:42.889
which is probably like traumatic.
1267
00:36:43.060 --> 00:36:44.199
You're in that room,
1268
00:36:44.379 --> 00:36:45.340
the curtain opens,
1269
00:36:45.459 --> 00:36:46.600
she sees the woman
1270
00:36:47.139 --> 00:36:48.459
who killed her daughter,
1271
00:36:48.820 --> 00:36:50.379
and you have to go through all that,
1272
00:36:50.409 --> 00:36:52.820
and then to have it end this way,
1273
00:36:53.260 --> 00:36:53.959
like it's not
1274
00:36:54.290 --> 00:36:55.310
fair to her
1275
00:36:55.459 --> 00:36:56.000
either.
1276
00:36:56.790 --> 00:36:57.229
So I,
1277
00:36:57.310 --> 00:36:57.719
I
1278
00:36:59.229 --> 00:36:59.830
First of all,
1279
00:37:00.850 --> 00:37:02.439
My heart goes out to that person.
1280
00:37:03.050 --> 00:37:03.250
OK,
1281
00:37:03.330 --> 00:37:06.909
I've represented people who've been accused and who have committed murder
1282
00:37:07.129 --> 00:37:08.570
for about 40 years.
1283
00:37:08.929 --> 00:37:13.120
That doesn't mean my heart doesn't go out to the families of the victims.
1284
00:37:14.090 --> 00:37:15.689
What put me out of business,
1285
00:37:15.770 --> 00:37:15.959
right?
1286
00:37:16.040 --> 00:37:17.070
That's the easy
1287
00:37:17.649 --> 00:37:18.350
statement.
1288
00:37:19.050 --> 00:37:21.209
I wanted to be clear that
1289
00:37:22.600 --> 00:37:24.370
Not everyone who
1290
00:37:25.120 --> 00:37:28.659
has the execution happen then goes home and says,
1291
00:37:29.040 --> 00:37:29.479
ah,
1292
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:30.770
I meant peace.
1293
00:37:31.560 --> 00:37:32.600
Sometimes it's out.
1294
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:34.110
That actually didn't work.
1295
00:37:34.399 --> 00:37:35.860
There are many people
1296
00:37:36.120 --> 00:37:40.379
who are family survivors who don't want the death penalty,
1297
00:37:40.919 --> 00:37:43.300
who are shaken more by it,
1298
00:37:43.879 --> 00:37:43.889
um,
1299
00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:44.899
but I,
1300
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:47.860
none of that is meant to diminish
1301
00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:51.239
the trauma that this mom suffered.
1302
00:37:52.290 --> 00:37:52.989
Um,
1303
00:37:53.290 --> 00:37:56.389
which goes back to a whole bunch of things,
1304
00:37:56.489 --> 00:37:56.989
right?
1305
00:37:58.100 --> 00:37:58.570
For some,
1306
00:37:58.709 --> 00:37:58.719
uh,
1307
00:37:58.929 --> 00:37:58.959
OK,
1308
00:37:59.100 --> 00:38:00.409
I'm against the death penalty,
1309
00:38:00.510 --> 00:38:02.250
so I'm gonna make it clear where I stand.
1310
00:38:02.780 --> 00:38:04.169
I'm gonna try and be objective,
1311
00:38:04.250 --> 00:38:04.570
but
1312
00:38:04.770 --> 00:38:05.310
I'm gonna
1313
00:38:05.570 --> 00:38:06.429
tell you what I feel.
1314
00:38:07.250 --> 00:38:08.510
It's the death penalty,
1315
00:38:08.570 --> 00:38:09.350
all right,
1316
00:38:09.850 --> 00:38:13.120
and it doesn't assuage pain.
1317
00:38:13.610 --> 00:38:15.750
It doesn't fix things.
1318
00:38:16.610 --> 00:38:17.320
And
1319
00:38:18.419 --> 00:38:20.709
The way the system works,
1320
00:38:21.270 --> 00:38:22.750
because to make sure we get it right,
1321
00:38:22.830 --> 00:38:25.729
we have to have long appeals and reviews and stuff,
1322
00:38:26.340 --> 00:38:26.560
it,
1323
00:38:26.709 --> 00:38:28.850
it certainly prolongs things.
1324
00:38:29.830 --> 00:38:34.770
So one could make an argument that we would never have had this poor mom in this place
1325
00:38:34.909 --> 00:38:36.610
if we didn't have the death penalty.
1326
00:38:37.959 --> 00:38:40.239
We've never had this poor mom in this place.
1327
00:38:40.520 --> 00:38:41.719
If we didn't somehow,
1328
00:38:41.989 --> 00:38:44.139
I don't think humans are born thinking
1329
00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:45.879
there must be a death penalty.
1330
00:38:47.070 --> 00:38:48.500
But when we have a society
1331
00:38:48.959 --> 00:38:50.979
that in its laws says
1332
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:52.719
you need the death penalty,
1333
00:38:52.959 --> 00:38:57.399
and they have politicians say only the death penalty will right the wrong.
1334
00:38:58.219 --> 00:39:00.719
It creates a perception
1335
00:39:01.060 --> 00:39:01.219
that,
1336
00:39:01.310 --> 00:39:01.540
hey,
1337
00:39:01.620 --> 00:39:03.739
I'm being deprived of a right.
1338
00:39:04.010 --> 00:39:04.360
Yeah.
1339
00:39:05.520 --> 00:39:05.979
So
1340
00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:06.439
I,
1341
00:39:06.520 --> 00:39:06.639
I,
1342
00:39:06.750 --> 00:39:06.879
I,
1343
00:39:06.959 --> 00:39:09.429
I'm horrified that I didn't know she was there.
1344
00:39:09.719 --> 00:39:11.139
My heart goes out to her.
1345
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:12.620
I'm horrified
1346
00:39:12.959 --> 00:39:14.540
that she witnessed that.
1347
00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:17.729
I'm horrified that she would have witnessed it if it was
1348
00:39:18.199 --> 00:39:19.600
quote successful.
1349
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:22.060
I don't know if it would have brought her peace,
1350
00:39:22.479 --> 00:39:24.479
but I'm saddened for her as well,
1351
00:39:24.560 --> 00:39:25.229
of course.
1352
00:39:25.449 --> 00:39:25.560
Yeah,
1353
00:39:25.639 --> 00:39:25.959
of course,
1354
00:39:26.040 --> 00:39:26.120
yeah,
1355
00:39:26.199 --> 00:39:26.479
and I,
1356
00:39:26.560 --> 00:39:26.800
I mean,
1357
00:39:26.840 --> 00:39:28.540
I don't obviously cause I'm a journalist,
1358
00:39:28.560 --> 00:39:29.179
I don't
1359
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:31.560
typically give my opinion on things,
1360
00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:32.219
you know,
1361
00:39:32.520 --> 00:39:33.139
um,
1362
00:39:33.479 --> 00:39:34.060
but.
1363
00:39:34.850 --> 00:39:36.889
I just was thinking about her today cause I've
1364
00:39:36.889 --> 00:39:39.989
heard a lot of people are talking about Krista and
1365
00:39:40.330 --> 00:39:43.830
her pain and suffering and what this was like for her,
1366
00:39:44.189 --> 00:39:44.530
um,
1367
00:39:44.610 --> 00:39:45.129
and
1368
00:39:45.250 --> 00:39:47.219
I just did want to mention that cause it is like,
1369
00:39:47.489 --> 00:39:47.600
I,
1370
00:39:47.689 --> 00:39:51.090
I can't imagine for the for the victim's family being there too,
1371
00:39:51.189 --> 00:39:51.360
you know,
1372
00:39:51.449 --> 00:39:51.909
I mean,
1373
00:39:52.209 --> 00:39:53.310
it must have been awful.
1374
00:39:56.080 --> 00:39:56.629
Yes.
1375
00:39:57.659 --> 00:39:58.379
Um,
1376
00:39:59.350 --> 00:40:00.669
And in this case,
1377
00:40:01.050 --> 00:40:01.709
and I'm not.
1378
00:40:02.649 --> 00:40:05.929
Never I should never judge anyone's feelings.
1379
00:40:06.570 --> 00:40:10.800
It's particularly strange because apparently the two other defendants,
1380
00:40:11.290 --> 00:40:12.530
neither was executed.
1381
00:40:12.679 --> 00:40:13.969
One is out of jail.
1382
00:40:14.689 --> 00:40:16.810
There's this whole disparate treatment.
1383
00:40:17.520 --> 00:40:18.199
Um,
1384
00:40:18.449 --> 00:40:21.290
obviously because of their youth and because she was
1385
00:40:21.290 --> 00:40:24.689
just over 18 when they were just under 18.
1386
00:40:25.590 --> 00:40:26.149
Um
1387
00:40:26.959 --> 00:40:26.969
There
1388
00:40:27.969 --> 00:40:32.280
I find it unimaginable to be a parent in that situation.
1389
00:40:33.889 --> 00:40:34.100
Yeah,
1390
00:40:34.219 --> 00:40:35.689
what a strange uh
1391
00:40:36.370 --> 00:40:37.100
situation we're in now.
1392
00:40:37.179 --> 00:40:38.919
I guess we'll just wait and see
1393
00:40:39.379 --> 00:40:39.719
what,
1394
00:40:39.739 --> 00:40:41.300
and then even with the HIPAA laws,
1395
00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:41.969
it's like,
1396
00:40:42.340 --> 00:40:44.379
like even her lawyers were explaining that even
1397
00:40:44.379 --> 00:40:47.520
the governor may not legally be entitled to know
1398
00:40:48.020 --> 00:40:49.020
her condition right now.
1399
00:40:49.100 --> 00:40:50.850
Like it's all very complicated,
1400
00:40:51.060 --> 00:40:52.280
it seems in terms of
1401
00:40:52.540 --> 00:40:53.379
knowing even
1402
00:40:53.939 --> 00:40:55.379
her how she's doing right now.
1403
00:40:56.489 --> 00:40:58.290
So I don't know enough about HIPAA.
1404
00:40:58.399 --> 00:41:01.189
I certainly suspect that prison authorities
1405
00:41:01.610 --> 00:41:03.620
know exactly what her condition is.
1406
00:41:03.810 --> 00:41:04.689
Somebody there
1407
00:41:05.209 --> 00:41:07.790
because they're responsible for her security.
1408
00:41:08.929 --> 00:41:11.790
She probably has a slightly diminished
1409
00:41:12.050 --> 00:41:14.189
privacy interest because
1410
00:41:14.449 --> 00:41:16.110
she's in their care.
1411
00:41:16.879 --> 00:41:17.590
Um
1412
00:41:21.310 --> 00:41:25.709
If there is a silver lining to this incredibly dark cloud,
1413
00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:28.149
it is indeed that we have a a.
1414
00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:29.820
Till
1415
00:41:30.050 --> 00:41:31.409
January 1st.
1416
00:41:32.510 --> 00:41:33.550
To pause.
1417
00:41:34.270 --> 00:41:35.040
And
1418
00:41:35.270 --> 00:41:36.750
ask some hard questions.
1419
00:41:36.870 --> 00:41:38.250
How did this go wrong?
1420
00:41:39.310 --> 00:41:41.870
Is it ever possible to do it right?
1421
00:41:42.689 --> 00:41:44.929
And going back to her case.
1422
00:41:47.260 --> 00:41:49.659
There's a whole difference whether she is guilty.
1423
00:41:49.820 --> 00:41:51.899
I don't think there's a question about that.
1424
00:41:52.020 --> 00:41:54.080
Nothing I've seen says that,
1425
00:41:54.419 --> 00:41:55.459
and whether
1426
00:41:55.860 --> 00:41:57.639
she should be put to death.
1427
00:41:58.899 --> 00:41:59.399
And.
1428
00:42:02.120 --> 00:42:04.159
For those who are listening to you,
1429
00:42:04.270 --> 00:42:04.800
Brian,
1430
00:42:04.959 --> 00:42:05.439
who
1431
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:06.120
are saying,
1432
00:42:06.280 --> 00:42:06.520
hey,
1433
00:42:06.679 --> 00:42:07.280
Epstein,
1434
00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:08.040
you're full of,
1435
00:42:08.179 --> 00:42:09.090
you know what,
1436
00:42:09.479 --> 00:42:11.379
and you're not being considerate,
1437
00:42:11.770 --> 00:42:11.949
uh,
1438
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:14.239
the only thing I want to say is the following.
1439
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:18.840
We do not have an automatic death penalty in the United
1440
00:42:18.969 --> 00:42:19.590
States.
1441
00:42:19.969 --> 00:42:20.570
In other words,
1442
00:42:20.649 --> 00:42:21.729
if I kill 1 person,
1443
00:42:21.810 --> 00:42:23.250
if I kill 50 people,
1444
00:42:23.530 --> 00:42:24.719
there's no line that says,
1445
00:42:24.729 --> 00:42:25.129
that's it,
1446
00:42:25.250 --> 00:42:26.229
it's automatic.
1447
00:42:27.100 --> 00:42:28.300
There's a process.
1448
00:42:30.030 --> 00:42:31.500
And you don't judge
1449
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:32.870
only the crime,
1450
00:42:33.229 --> 00:42:34.949
you're judging the person.
1451
00:42:35.379 --> 00:42:35.389
Hm.
1452
00:42:36.570 --> 00:42:37.260
And
1453
00:42:40.260 --> 00:42:41.979
The idea of
1454
00:42:42.919 --> 00:42:44.679
doing a death penalty hearing,
1455
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:46.120
which is really hard,
1456
00:42:46.350 --> 00:42:46.510
OK,
1457
00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:47.040
I've
1458
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:47.959
done that.
1459
00:42:48.919 --> 00:42:49.659
Is
1460
00:42:51.020 --> 00:42:51.679
We have to
1461
00:42:52.489 --> 00:42:55.689
Give the jury all the facts about this person.
1462
00:42:56.979 --> 00:42:58.520
So they can decide.
1463
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:01.479
Where
1464
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:03.260
the line is.
1465
00:43:03.560 --> 00:43:07.739
Is life in prison with or without the possibility of parole enough?
1466
00:43:08.379 --> 00:43:10.699
Is death the only possibility?
1467
00:43:11.060 --> 00:43:12.770
And if we're gonna have that system,
1468
00:43:12.979 --> 00:43:14.840
let's make sure we have lawyers
1469
00:43:15.540 --> 00:43:17.300
who get all the information,
1470
00:43:17.780 --> 00:43:19.979
who present all the information,
1471
00:43:20.260 --> 00:43:23.679
who can contextualize all the information.
1472
00:43:24.679 --> 00:43:26.120
And from what I'm reading,
1473
00:43:26.239 --> 00:43:28.780
and I don't know the lawyers who tried her case.
1474
00:43:29.530 --> 00:43:33.199
But the claims now are her lawyers didn't do that.
1475
00:43:33.620 --> 00:43:36.360
So that the decision to give her death
1476
00:43:36.810 --> 00:43:40.260
was an incompletely informed decision.
1477
00:43:42.340 --> 00:43:46.110
Maybe the jury would have given her death if they knew all these things.
1478
00:43:46.959 --> 00:43:47.939
Maybe not.
1479
00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:49.699
And
1480
00:43:50.379 --> 00:43:54.949
That's one of the problems with the death penalty writ large in the United States,
1481
00:43:55.580 --> 00:43:56.500
from state to state,
1482
00:43:56.649 --> 00:43:57.979
from county to county.
1483
00:43:59.070 --> 00:44:03.489
There are different levels of resources and proficiency in lawyers
1484
00:44:04.030 --> 00:44:07.659
as to how well and thoroughly they get that job done.
1485
00:44:08.129 --> 00:44:08.139
Mm.
1486
00:44:09.209 --> 00:44:09.959
Interesting.
1487
00:44:10.419 --> 00:44:10.500
Well,
1488
00:44:10.580 --> 00:44:11.540
I really appreciate your time,
1489
00:44:11.699 --> 00:44:11.899
Jules.
1490
00:44:11.979 --> 00:44:15.840
That was very helpful to understanding what may happen next and uh
1491
00:44:16.500 --> 00:44:17.659
thank you for taking the time.
1492
00:44:18.830 --> 00:44:19.229
OK,
1493
00:44:19.350 --> 00:44:19.939
thank you.
1494
00:44:20.429 --> 00:44:20.550
Really,
1495
00:44:20.629 --> 00:44:23.239
really appreciate Jules uh for the conversation,
1496
00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:23.520
um,
1497
00:44:24.030 --> 00:44:24.989
and as I mentioned earlier,
1498
00:44:25.110 --> 00:44:28.689
one alternative to lethal injection is the firing squad.
1499
00:44:29.110 --> 00:44:29.149
Uh,
1500
00:44:29.270 --> 00:44:30.350
the firing squad,
1501
00:44:30.550 --> 00:44:30.699
uh,
1502
00:44:31.030 --> 00:44:31.989
that's a whole different procedure,
1503
00:44:32.010 --> 00:44:35.409
obviously it calls for strapping down the condemned inmate,
1504
00:44:36.050 --> 00:44:36.060
uh,
1505
00:44:36.229 --> 00:44:38.090
they wear a black prison jumpsuit.
1506
00:44:38.560 --> 00:44:41.810
They're strapped down to a metal chair in the corner of the execution chamber.
1507
00:44:41.889 --> 00:44:44.229
There's a black hood that's placed over the prisoner's head
1508
00:44:44.810 --> 00:44:48.110
and a white target with a red bull's eye on their chest,
1509
00:44:48.489 --> 00:44:50.590
and then about 15 ft away,
1510
00:44:50.969 --> 00:44:52.409
it's like the length of an average car,
1511
00:44:52.530 --> 00:44:54.479
about you've got 3 people,
1512
00:44:54.760 --> 00:44:56.590
3 prison volunteers
1513
00:44:56.939 --> 00:44:59.010
with rifles who stand behind a wall with a
1514
00:44:59.010 --> 00:45:01.719
rectangular opening and with no countdown or any warning,
1515
00:45:01.770 --> 00:45:02.669
the rifles fire
1516
00:45:03.129 --> 00:45:03.850
in unison.
1517
00:45:04.399 --> 00:45:04.989
Um,
1518
00:45:05.250 --> 00:45:05.659
and
1519
00:45:05.919 --> 00:45:08.770
there are several states that use the firing squad,
1520
00:45:08.889 --> 00:45:10.649
not lethal injection like Tennessee.
1521
00:45:10.919 --> 00:45:13.270
One of the states with the firing squad is South Carolina.
1522
00:45:13.409 --> 00:45:15.360
They're the first to use it in 15 years,
1523
00:45:15.370 --> 00:45:15.750
and,
1524
00:45:16.020 --> 00:45:16.419
um,
1525
00:45:16.689 --> 00:45:17.669
more could be coming
1526
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:19.969
across the country's death penalty states,
1527
00:45:20.169 --> 00:45:21.709
especially in light of
1528
00:45:22.010 --> 00:45:23.830
what we just saw happen in Tennessee.
1529
00:45:23.939 --> 00:45:25.590
So I want you guys to hear my conversation
1530
00:45:26.169 --> 00:45:27.409
with reporter Ted Clifford.
1531
00:45:27.489 --> 00:45:28.040
I spoke to him.
1532
00:45:28.090 --> 00:45:29.209
This is actually from last year,
1533
00:45:29.290 --> 00:45:30.629
but I spoke to him right after
1534
00:45:30.770 --> 00:45:32.489
he witnessed a firing squad.
1535
00:45:32.935 --> 00:45:34.635
In South Carolina,
1536
00:45:35.024 --> 00:45:35.594
and he was
1537
00:45:35.695 --> 00:45:39.344
in South Carolina when 44-year-old Stephen Bryant was executed.
1538
00:45:39.745 --> 00:45:42.544
Bryant was convicted of killing three people over 5 days.
1539
00:45:42.625 --> 00:45:44.284
This was back in 2004.
1540
00:45:44.745 --> 00:45:45.614
In one of the murders,
1541
00:45:45.705 --> 00:45:49.205
Bryant taunted police by writing Catch Me If You Can in blood
1542
00:45:49.665 --> 00:45:51.745
on the wall of the home where one of the victims lived,
1543
00:45:51.824 --> 00:45:52.764
so it was bad.
1544
00:45:54.330 --> 00:45:57.610
And it's interesting because death penalty proponents as well as some capital
1545
00:45:57.610 --> 00:45:59.570
punishment experts and historians have called
1546
00:45:59.570 --> 00:46:02.389
the firing squad clearly the most humane
1547
00:46:02.850 --> 00:46:04.250
method for execution.
1548
00:46:04.649 --> 00:46:05.149
Uh,
1549
00:46:05.620 --> 00:46:08.310
much more humane they say than lethal injection.
1550
00:46:08.590 --> 00:46:09.870
A firing squad out is quicker,
1551
00:46:09.969 --> 00:46:10.830
it's more precise,
1552
00:46:10.909 --> 00:46:12.570
it's less prone to botches than
1553
00:46:13.189 --> 00:46:15.889
using deadly chemicals injected into the body.
1554
00:46:16.270 --> 00:46:18.360
That's what the experts say that I've spoken to.
1555
00:46:18.669 --> 00:46:20.229
So I want you to hear my full conversation with
1556
00:46:20.229 --> 00:46:22.429
Ted because he can describe exactly what he saw.
1557
00:46:22.590 --> 00:46:22.909
You're all,
1558
00:46:22.989 --> 00:46:25.169
you're all sitting in this very small room,
1559
00:46:25.239 --> 00:46:25.260
um,
1560
00:46:26.590 --> 00:46:27.929
and you're looking
1561
00:46:28.510 --> 00:46:28.820
through,
1562
00:46:28.939 --> 00:46:29.229
like I said,
1563
00:46:29.270 --> 00:46:31.580
this bulletproof glass and it's covered with these
1564
00:46:31.580 --> 00:46:33.729
metal bars and then at 6 p.m. exactly.
1565
00:46:34.020 --> 00:46:34.030
This
1566
00:46:35.209 --> 00:46:36.610
red brown curtain,
1567
00:46:36.620 --> 00:46:37.000
just
1568
00:46:37.219 --> 00:46:37.780
no warning,
1569
00:46:37.899 --> 00:46:39.479
just slides back
1570
00:46:39.820 --> 00:46:45.219
and you see the room which is I mean it is small and Stephen Bryant was in
1571
00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:46.580
you know if we're looking at it,
1572
00:46:46.659 --> 00:46:48.239
the far left corner of the room,
1573
00:46:48.899 --> 00:46:50.100
he's already in position,
1574
00:46:50.699 --> 00:46:51.879
he's strapped down,
1575
00:46:52.620 --> 00:46:54.360
his face is exposed,
1576
00:46:54.780 --> 00:46:58.739
but the chair that they strapped him to for the firing squad,
1577
00:46:58.979 --> 00:47:00.199
his arms are kind of.
1578
00:47:01.669 --> 00:47:01.709
Sort of
1579
00:47:03.149 --> 00:47:05.000
pinned behind him and to his side,
1580
00:47:05.080 --> 00:47:05.719
he's got
1581
00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:07.959
these black mittens on his hands,
1582
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:09.120
and they dress them in black,
1583
00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:09.939
which is unusual.
1584
00:47:11.040 --> 00:47:15.080
The standard Department of Corrections outfit is sort of like green scrubs,
1585
00:47:15.120 --> 00:47:16.459
and that's normally what they wear
1586
00:47:17.120 --> 00:47:18.320
for the lethal injection,
1587
00:47:18.879 --> 00:47:20.719
but for the firing squad they dress them in black.
1588
00:47:20.879 --> 00:47:21.620
He's got these black
1589
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:23.320
plastic slippers on,
1590
00:47:23.479 --> 00:47:24.120
black scrubs,
1591
00:47:24.159 --> 00:47:25.219
these black mittens.
1592
00:47:25.919 --> 00:47:28.479
And maybe the oddest thing is that
1593
00:47:30.120 --> 00:47:31.780
his head was sort of
1594
00:47:32.679 --> 00:47:33.979
strapped to the back.
1595
00:47:34.040 --> 00:47:39.659
There's a big sort of sling that covers his neck and chin holding his head in place
1596
00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:41.550
and um.
1597
00:47:42.409 --> 00:47:42.590
You know,
1598
00:47:42.679 --> 00:47:45.610
so he can't move his head and for the second that the curtain moved back,
1599
00:47:45.689 --> 00:47:48.270
he glanced at the audience or the witnesses that were there
1600
00:47:48.929 --> 00:47:50.429
and then just proceeded to stare
1601
00:47:50.770 --> 00:47:51.330
straight ahead.
1602
00:47:51.449 --> 00:47:52.330
He didn't look at anyone.
1603
00:47:52.409 --> 00:47:53.709
He didn't make eye contact,
1604
00:47:55.149 --> 00:47:55.159
you
1605
00:47:55.620 --> 00:47:55.629
know,
1606
00:47:55.850 --> 00:47:57.989
the band kind of distorted
1607
00:47:58.209 --> 00:47:58.929
his features,
1608
00:47:59.409 --> 00:48:00.219
pushed his
1609
00:48:00.649 --> 00:48:01.090
cheeks up,
1610
00:48:01.129 --> 00:48:04.610
and I mean it's odd because I've been covering his case for a while.
1611
00:48:04.649 --> 00:48:05.649
I've seen pictures of him.
1612
00:48:05.689 --> 00:48:06.770
I've seen new pictures of him.
1613
00:48:06.810 --> 00:48:08.010
I've seen old pictures of him.
1614
00:48:08.070 --> 00:48:08.790
I've seen
1615
00:48:09.209 --> 00:48:09.860
footage,
1616
00:48:09.889 --> 00:48:11.250
and you know it doesn't.
1617
00:48:12.010 --> 00:48:12.840
You recognize them,
1618
00:48:12.889 --> 00:48:15.290
but it doesn't look like the person you recognize because of
1619
00:48:15.290 --> 00:48:18.110
the way that the face is sort of being distorted.
1620
00:48:18.790 --> 00:48:20.340
It's just like pulling it back sort of,
1621
00:48:20.370 --> 00:48:20.510
yeah,
1622
00:48:20.629 --> 00:48:20.709
well,
1623
00:48:20.739 --> 00:48:22.659
it's sort of pushing it up if that makes sense.
1624
00:48:22.689 --> 00:48:23.729
It's this wide.
1625
00:48:25.389 --> 00:48:26.389
Cuff sling,
1626
00:48:26.469 --> 00:48:27.850
I don't know exactly what you want to call it,
1627
00:48:27.860 --> 00:48:29.989
and people have tried to describe it before and it's
1628
00:48:29.989 --> 00:48:31.389
it's sort of hard to get your head around.
1629
00:48:31.429 --> 00:48:32.370
You've never seen anything
1630
00:48:32.989 --> 00:48:33.260
like it.
1631
00:48:33.270 --> 00:48:36.540
It's this wide sling and it pushes the face up,
1632
00:48:36.550 --> 00:48:37.070
so
1633
00:48:37.590 --> 00:48:38.969
you know he looks very
1634
00:48:39.870 --> 00:48:43.250
small and kind of distorted over there in the corner of the room
1635
00:48:43.870 --> 00:48:45.100
and you know we've had you know in
1636
00:48:45.459 --> 00:48:47.370
in other cases.
1637
00:48:48.550 --> 00:48:48.750
You know,
1638
00:48:48.830 --> 00:48:50.649
the condemned individuals have
1639
00:48:51.389 --> 00:48:52.629
looked over at their attorneys,
1640
00:48:52.750 --> 00:48:53.550
looked over their family.
1641
00:48:53.629 --> 00:48:55.020
We've even had cases where people have,
1642
00:48:55.350 --> 00:48:55.510
you know,
1643
00:48:55.629 --> 00:48:56.790
mouthed things,
1644
00:48:56.870 --> 00:48:57.989
at least in the case of the,
1645
00:48:58.030 --> 00:49:00.729
the lethal injections when the when the head is free or,
1646
00:49:00.989 --> 00:49:01.110
you know,
1647
00:49:01.270 --> 00:49:02.909
tried to maybe give a reassuring nod.
1648
00:49:02.979 --> 00:49:04.570
We've had other people who've sort of
1649
00:49:05.510 --> 00:49:05.870
stared,
1650
00:49:06.030 --> 00:49:06.290
you know,
1651
00:49:06.469 --> 00:49:09.510
made very intentional eye contact with every single person in the room.
1652
00:49:09.550 --> 00:49:10.429
That's what we've heard from,
1653
00:49:10.510 --> 00:49:11.429
from media reports,
1654
00:49:11.489 --> 00:49:11.889
but
1655
00:49:12.270 --> 00:49:12.389
yeah,
1656
00:49:12.540 --> 00:49:13.260
Stephen Bryant just,
1657
00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:13.510
I mean,
1658
00:49:13.590 --> 00:49:13.750
he,
1659
00:49:13.830 --> 00:49:15.010
he pretty much stared.
1660
00:49:15.709 --> 00:49:18.350
Straight ahead and he didn't did not give a final statement.
1661
00:49:19.610 --> 00:49:23.659
And so could he talk or does that thing block your mouth?
1662
00:49:24.010 --> 00:49:24.409
It would,
1663
00:49:24.459 --> 00:49:25.239
it doesn't
1664
00:49:25.560 --> 00:49:26.699
block the mouth.
1665
00:49:26.810 --> 00:49:28.340
I imagine it would be very hard to talk,
1666
00:49:28.459 --> 00:49:30.919
but the Department of Corrections doesn't actually let
1667
00:49:31.260 --> 00:49:32.620
the inmate give their,
1668
00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:33.580
give their final statement.
1669
00:49:33.620 --> 00:49:36.060
It's read through their attorney usually,
1670
00:49:36.500 --> 00:49:38.419
maybe on one occasion it was by a spiritual advisor,
1671
00:49:38.459 --> 00:49:39.030
but I think in every,
1672
00:49:39.100 --> 00:49:39.939
in every case it's been,
1673
00:49:40.020 --> 00:49:41.169
it's been by the attorney,
1674
00:49:41.300 --> 00:49:41.600
so.
1675
00:49:42.020 --> 00:49:43.780
You know that it kind of goes to what I was saying.
1676
00:49:43.820 --> 00:49:44.090
I mean the,
1677
00:49:44.120 --> 00:49:46.219
the South Carolina Department of Corrections,
1678
00:49:46.260 --> 00:49:46.560
which,
1679
00:49:46.939 --> 00:49:47.360
you know,
1680
00:49:47.899 --> 00:49:49.919
they developed their own policies for this,
1681
00:49:49.939 --> 00:49:50.439
uh,
1682
00:49:51.179 --> 00:49:51.340
you know,
1683
00:49:51.379 --> 00:49:52.590
and I imagine and you know,
1684
00:49:52.620 --> 00:49:54.800
across states this is a tightly controlled operation,
1685
00:49:54.979 --> 00:49:55.219
but I'd,
1686
00:49:55.280 --> 00:49:56.260
I'd say that theirs is,
1687
00:49:56.310 --> 00:49:56.500
you know,
1688
00:49:57.020 --> 00:49:57.800
especially
1689
00:49:58.139 --> 00:49:58.979
tightly controlled.
1690
00:49:58.989 --> 00:50:01.169
There's really no room for anyone to,
1691
00:50:01.260 --> 00:50:02.320
to go off script.
1692
00:50:03.129 --> 00:50:04.750
And so what happened next?
1693
00:50:05.840 --> 00:50:06.270
Yeah,
1694
00:50:06.439 --> 00:50:07.110
uh,
1695
00:50:07.500 --> 00:50:07.899
2
1696
00:50:08.560 --> 00:50:10.159
corrections department officials came out.
1697
00:50:10.280 --> 00:50:10.330
Uh,
1698
00:50:10.479 --> 00:50:11.239
they announced that,
1699
00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:11.479
you know,
1700
00:50:11.600 --> 00:50:11.909
the.
1701
00:50:12.699 --> 00:50:16.949
Execution of Stephen Corey Bryant for the murder
1702
00:50:16.949 --> 00:50:19.709
of Willard Teen was about to take place.
1703
00:50:20.429 --> 00:50:21.239
There had been
1704
00:50:21.790 --> 00:50:22.810
no stays,
1705
00:50:22.870 --> 00:50:22.889
uh,
1706
00:50:23.270 --> 00:50:23.419
and,
1707
00:50:23.449 --> 00:50:23.989
and I should be clear,
1708
00:50:24.040 --> 00:50:24.790
I didn't mention this earlier,
1709
00:50:25.469 --> 00:50:29.229
the family witnesses were the family of an individual,
1710
00:50:29.310 --> 00:50:29.689
Willard Teen.
1711
00:50:31.469 --> 00:50:32.070
Stephen Bryant,
1712
00:50:32.229 --> 00:50:32.379
he was,
1713
00:50:32.590 --> 00:50:35.629
he pled guilty to killing 3 people and wounding another,
1714
00:50:35.709 --> 00:50:37.679
but he was ultimately sentenced to death
1715
00:50:38.550 --> 00:50:40.129
just for the murder of Willard Teen,
1716
00:50:40.500 --> 00:50:42.010
so it was only Teen's family.
1717
00:50:42.560 --> 00:50:43.350
In the room,
1718
00:50:43.510 --> 00:50:44.070
um.
1719
00:50:45.090 --> 00:50:46.379
So at 6:01
1720
00:50:47.090 --> 00:50:49.489
they put the hood over his head and
1721
00:50:49.489 --> 00:50:52.169
this entire time he's been staring straight ahead and
1722
00:50:52.530 --> 00:50:55.790
as the hood went on you could see him take a couple of sort of
1723
00:50:56.330 --> 00:50:58.800
it looked to me like quick shallow breaths,
1724
00:50:59.189 --> 00:51:00.570
not quite hyperventilating,
1725
00:51:00.649 --> 00:51:02.429
but as if he was stealing himself
1726
00:51:03.010 --> 00:51:04.070
and then the hood went on.
1727
00:51:05.120 --> 00:51:06.260
And it's dead silence.
1728
00:51:06.719 --> 00:51:08.199
The Tian family sitting ahead of us,
1729
00:51:08.590 --> 00:51:09.879
they were all holding hands.
1730
00:51:10.479 --> 00:51:11.620
Nobody's talking,
1731
00:51:12.110 --> 00:51:13.239
and I was staring,
1732
00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:13.479
really,
1733
00:51:13.520 --> 00:51:17.159
I was staring straight at his chest and pinned to the left side of his chest,
1734
00:51:17.270 --> 00:51:17.360
you know,
1735
00:51:17.439 --> 00:51:17.979
a little
1736
00:51:19.040 --> 00:51:22.800
off center is a target about the size of a white post-it note,
1737
00:51:23.040 --> 00:51:25.780
square square target with a red bull's eye on the middle.
1738
00:51:27.310 --> 00:51:28.689
And I was pretty much staring
1739
00:51:29.189 --> 00:51:30.750
straight at that and.
1740
00:51:31.989 --> 00:51:34.239
About 6:02 with absolutely no warning,
1741
00:51:34.419 --> 00:51:35.600
you hear the rifle shots,
1742
00:51:35.639 --> 00:51:37.100
and I mean there's nothing.
1743
00:51:37.790 --> 00:51:38.030
You know,
1744
00:51:38.129 --> 00:51:39.429
people like to compare it to,
1745
00:51:39.550 --> 00:51:39.709
you know,
1746
00:51:39.790 --> 00:51:41.310
it's a slamming door or something,
1747
00:51:41.350 --> 00:51:42.330
but I mean it just,
1748
00:51:42.550 --> 00:51:43.830
it just sounds like gunfire.
1749
00:51:43.939 --> 00:51:45.830
It sounds like incredibly loud gunfire,
1750
00:51:45.909 --> 00:51:46.830
incredibly close.
1751
00:51:46.909 --> 00:51:47.929
They all fire at once.
1752
00:51:47.989 --> 00:51:48.850
It's just one
1753
00:51:49.350 --> 00:51:50.649
loud crack,
1754
00:51:51.030 --> 00:51:52.550
and I didn't see any blood,
1755
00:51:52.629 --> 00:51:54.949
but I saw the target just fly off his
1756
00:51:54.949 --> 00:51:57.649
chest about halfway across the room and it landed.
1757
00:51:58.179 --> 00:51:59.040
In the middle of the room,
1758
00:51:59.389 --> 00:51:59.929
uh,
1759
00:52:00.419 --> 00:52:01.379
behind the electric chair,
1760
00:52:01.500 --> 00:52:02.199
which I mean the,
1761
00:52:02.939 --> 00:52:04.969
the electric chair is still in the middle of the room,
1762
00:52:05.060 --> 00:52:06.540
he's in the corner and the electric chair is
1763
00:52:06.540 --> 00:52:08.520
in the middle covered with this black cloth,
1764
00:52:09.060 --> 00:52:09.639
and
1765
00:52:09.820 --> 00:52:09.969
you know,
1766
00:52:10.139 --> 00:52:11.060
immediately on being hit,
1767
00:52:11.250 --> 00:52:11.300
you know,
1768
00:52:11.340 --> 00:52:12.800
his body shuddered.
1769
00:52:13.409 --> 00:52:14.830
And then over the next sort of
1770
00:52:14.959 --> 00:52:17.270
30 seconds to 1 minute
1771
00:52:18.330 --> 00:52:21.189
there appeared to be some faint involuntary movement,
1772
00:52:21.449 --> 00:52:23.669
it kind of maybe looked like a few small
1773
00:52:25.129 --> 00:52:27.110
breaths or movements of the chest,
1774
00:52:28.330 --> 00:52:31.270
maybe a small spasm at about 30 seconds,
1775
00:52:31.689 --> 00:52:32.429
and then
1776
00:52:32.889 --> 00:52:34.209
just complete stillness.
1777
00:52:35.060 --> 00:52:35.969
And
1778
00:52:36.310 --> 00:52:41.889
you know he's strapped in such a way that the body can't go limp.
1779
00:52:42.350 --> 00:52:43.010
He can't move,
1780
00:52:43.270 --> 00:52:43.949
but you.
1781
00:52:44.679 --> 00:52:44.689
Do
1782
00:52:46.080 --> 00:52:46.649
see
1783
00:52:47.040 --> 00:52:48.860
kind of there's there's a slackness
1784
00:52:49.120 --> 00:52:49.479
to it.
1785
00:52:49.560 --> 00:52:51.060
I mean it's it's the life is,
1786
00:52:51.120 --> 00:52:51.709
is gone,
1787
00:52:51.800 --> 00:52:52.189
there's no,
1788
00:52:52.239 --> 00:52:54.260
there's no tension in the body anymore
1789
00:52:54.879 --> 00:52:56.159
and um.
1790
00:52:57.080 --> 00:52:58.239
You couldn't see the wound,
1791
00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:01.179
but looking closely you could see sort of a dark
1792
00:53:01.520 --> 00:53:02.800
patch of wetness.
1793
00:53:02.919 --> 00:53:05.739
Obviously his blood slowly spreading across his chest,
1794
00:53:06.280 --> 00:53:08.000
but you really couldn't see the blood,
1795
00:53:08.080 --> 00:53:12.620
which is obviously the intention of using the black clothes
1796
00:53:13.679 --> 00:53:14.679
for the firing squad.
1797
00:53:14.790 --> 00:53:15.739
And then at about
1798
00:53:16.520 --> 00:53:17.820
6:04,
1799
00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:19.179
a doctor
1800
00:53:19.520 --> 00:53:20.159
came in.
1801
00:53:20.820 --> 00:53:20.830
Um,
1802
00:53:22.530 --> 00:53:22.540
yeah,
1803
00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:22.649
give,
1804
00:53:22.860 --> 00:53:23.909
give or take about 6:04,
1805
00:53:23.949 --> 00:53:24.649
a doctor came in,
1806
00:53:25.179 --> 00:53:26.100
we're assuming a doctor,
1807
00:53:26.179 --> 00:53:27.600
some kind of medical professional,
1808
00:53:28.379 --> 00:53:28.389
uh,
1809
00:53:28.780 --> 00:53:29.659
with a stethoscope,
1810
00:53:29.780 --> 00:53:30.629
spent about a minute,
1811
00:53:31.340 --> 00:53:33.600
kind of looked like he was placing the stethoscope
1812
00:53:34.100 --> 00:53:37.429
around different parts of Stephen Bryant's chest,
1813
00:53:37.860 --> 00:53:39.370
and then at 6:05,
1814
00:53:39.429 --> 00:53:39.719
um,
1815
00:53:40.699 --> 00:53:44.639
1 of the corrections officials came back out and said that the execution had
1816
00:53:44.979 --> 00:53:48.399
been performed and Stephen Bryant was pronounced dead at 6:05 p.m.
1817
00:53:48.780 --> 00:53:49.770
And then the curtains
1818
00:53:50.139 --> 00:53:50.830
slid shut,
1819
00:53:51.030 --> 00:53:52.169
and I mean I mean
1820
00:53:52.669 --> 00:53:53.969
we were in that room for
1821
00:53:54.310 --> 00:53:57.479
7 minutes start to finish and there's really
1822
00:53:58.169 --> 00:53:59.610
you know there's no there's no warning
1823
00:53:59.870 --> 00:54:00.699
at any point of it.
1824
00:54:00.790 --> 00:54:01.540
I mean it happened,
1825
00:54:01.550 --> 00:54:03.129
it happened incredibly quickly
1826
00:54:04.260 --> 00:54:05.770
compared to lethal injection.
1827
00:54:06.699 --> 00:54:07.459
In South Carolina,
1828
00:54:07.510 --> 00:54:08.560
the recent ones,
1829
00:54:09.739 --> 00:54:10.659
those have been 20 minutes,
1830
00:54:10.739 --> 00:54:11.500
25 minutes,
1831
00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:12.620
half an hour,
1832
00:54:13.020 --> 00:54:15.540
and you know people are waiting and obviously
1833
00:54:15.540 --> 00:54:17.179
closely watching to see any kind of movement,
1834
00:54:17.260 --> 00:54:17.969
but
1835
00:54:20.020 --> 00:54:22.179
within a minute after the bullets being fired,
1836
00:54:22.219 --> 00:54:23.469
there was nothing.
1837
00:54:23.540 --> 00:54:25.080
There appeared to be absolutely no life.
1838
00:54:26.290 --> 00:54:27.790
How many people shoot?
1839
00:54:28.399 --> 00:54:28.860
3,
1840
00:54:29.050 --> 00:54:30.360
and they're all
1841
00:54:31.330 --> 00:54:31.699
they're
1842
00:54:31.889 --> 00:54:32.540
all
1843
00:54:32.729 --> 00:54:32.969
armed.
1844
00:54:33.010 --> 00:54:34.080
They're all carrying loaded,
1845
00:54:34.169 --> 00:54:35.929
they're all carrying loaded rifles and and to be clear,
1846
00:54:35.979 --> 00:54:38.350
I realize this is the other part of it that I didn't mention and
1847
00:54:38.610 --> 00:54:40.669
partly it's because I didn't have a very clear
1848
00:54:40.929 --> 00:54:43.669
view of it and it's one of the strange things about
1849
00:54:44.090 --> 00:54:44.899
this room
1850
00:54:45.530 --> 00:54:48.070
is oddly because it's so small
1851
00:54:48.290 --> 00:54:50.389
and the glass windows are these sort of separated
1852
00:54:50.689 --> 00:54:51.399
windows,
1853
00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:52.810
everybody has a
1854
00:54:53.290 --> 00:54:55.790
pretty different view actually and.
1855
00:54:56.379 --> 00:54:59.919
The executioners fire their rifles.
1856
00:55:00.620 --> 00:55:00.629
From
1857
00:55:01.979 --> 00:55:03.659
a slit in the far wall,
1858
00:55:03.739 --> 00:55:05.570
if Stephen Bryant's on the left side,
1859
00:55:06.020 --> 00:55:06.570
the
1860
00:55:07.320 --> 00:55:10.260
the gun ports are essentially they're they're on the right side,
1861
00:55:10.280 --> 00:55:11.360
they're on the right wall.
1862
00:55:12.429 --> 00:55:14.270
There's a little black screen that covers them,
1863
00:55:14.350 --> 00:55:14.790
so
1864
00:55:15.169 --> 00:55:16.270
after the hood goes on,
1865
00:55:16.399 --> 00:55:16.520
uh,
1866
00:55:16.590 --> 00:55:17.939
this corrections official raises,
1867
00:55:17.989 --> 00:55:18.110
you know,
1868
00:55:18.149 --> 00:55:19.090
it's a little black
1869
00:55:19.719 --> 00:55:20.110
pull screen,
1870
00:55:20.270 --> 00:55:21.260
almost like a little projector screen,
1871
00:55:21.300 --> 00:55:23.820
and pulls it and it sort of pulls up and you see,
1872
00:55:23.949 --> 00:55:25.149
you see the black slit in the wall.
1873
00:55:25.209 --> 00:55:26.709
It's divided into three gun ports,
1874
00:55:26.750 --> 00:55:27.110
but
1875
00:55:27.429 --> 00:55:28.449
you don't see anybody,
1876
00:55:28.790 --> 00:55:28.800
um,
1877
00:55:29.870 --> 00:55:31.840
but again we've been told that they are,
1878
00:55:32.409 --> 00:55:34.000
they're none of them are carrying blanks.
1879
00:55:34.219 --> 00:55:34.229
Uh,
1880
00:55:34.409 --> 00:55:34.770
it's
1881
00:55:34.979 --> 00:55:36.350
3 executioners we've been.
1882
00:55:37.669 --> 00:55:39.780
Told their volunteers that nobody's forced to do it,
1883
00:55:39.830 --> 00:55:40.179
but again,
1884
00:55:40.189 --> 00:55:40.659
we really have,
1885
00:55:40.750 --> 00:55:41.459
we have
1886
00:55:41.830 --> 00:55:42.889
no information
1887
00:55:43.310 --> 00:55:43.750
about it.
1888
00:55:44.189 --> 00:55:44.870
We know
1889
00:55:45.229 --> 00:55:51.770
that they fire a type of bullet called a I believe it's a 308 Winchester Tap urban
1890
00:55:52.389 --> 00:55:52.969
round
1891
00:55:53.110 --> 00:55:54.449
and what's
1892
00:55:55.600 --> 00:55:56.139
Specialized,
1893
00:55:56.149 --> 00:55:58.090
I guess you could say about this round is that it's both
1894
00:56:00.070 --> 00:56:01.129
high penetrating
1895
00:56:01.350 --> 00:56:03.110
but also fragments,
1896
00:56:03.510 --> 00:56:04.409
so it goes
1897
00:56:05.310 --> 00:56:07.959
straight into the body and then more or less
1898
00:56:08.909 --> 00:56:09.379
shatters,
1899
00:56:09.419 --> 00:56:10.149
explodes outwards,
1900
00:56:10.270 --> 00:56:11.379
pulverizing the organs.
1901
00:56:11.469 --> 00:56:11.889
So
1902
00:56:12.550 --> 00:56:12.959
if
1903
00:56:13.389 --> 00:56:15.310
if things go correctly and it does what it's supposed to do,
1904
00:56:15.389 --> 00:56:17.409
it should essentially immediately
1905
00:56:17.790 --> 00:56:19.100
shred the heart,
1906
00:56:19.350 --> 00:56:20.169
immediately cutting off
1907
00:56:21.110 --> 00:56:23.270
blood supply and oxygen to the brain.
1908
00:56:23.310 --> 00:56:23.629
So.
1909
00:56:24.840 --> 00:56:25.780
In theory,
1910
00:56:26.250 --> 00:56:28.479
more or less instantaneous death.
1911
00:56:29.469 --> 00:56:29.590
Yeah,
1912
00:56:29.629 --> 00:56:32.179
I don't know why I always thought that it was like
1913
00:56:32.389 --> 00:56:37.489
two people had blanks and one had a real bullet and that way there was no like
1914
00:56:37.949 --> 00:56:38.500
guilt or,
1915
00:56:38.510 --> 00:56:38.709
you know,
1916
00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:39.469
you didn't have the,
1917
00:56:39.510 --> 00:56:40.010
the one,
1918
00:56:40.469 --> 00:56:42.409
the person who actually did it didn't have to,
1919
00:56:42.629 --> 00:56:43.729
they would never know,
1920
00:56:44.189 --> 00:56:44.469
right,
1921
00:56:44.669 --> 00:56:44.919
right,
1922
00:56:44.989 --> 00:56:45.500
um,
1923
00:56:45.669 --> 00:56:45.919
yeah,
1924
00:56:46.070 --> 00:56:46.510
you know,
1925
00:56:46.629 --> 00:56:49.449
I mean that's something we've always heard about firing squads.
1926
00:56:49.469 --> 00:56:49.949
I
1927
00:56:50.250 --> 00:56:50.449
You know,
1928
00:56:50.530 --> 00:56:51.770
I think there are some,
1929
00:56:51.899 --> 00:56:52.050
you know,
1930
00:56:52.209 --> 00:56:54.129
historical precedents for it,
1931
00:56:54.169 --> 00:56:54.939
whether it's
1932
00:56:55.409 --> 00:56:58.939
everybody has blanks except for one person or everybody is armed except for,
1933
00:56:58.949 --> 00:56:59.070
you know,
1934
00:56:59.169 --> 00:57:01.550
one person has a blank so that you can
1935
00:57:02.409 --> 00:57:03.310
spread the guilt
1936
00:57:04.129 --> 00:57:06.830
in South Carolina they've been very clear that they
1937
00:57:07.889 --> 00:57:09.830
that everybody is carrying a loaded rifle,
1938
00:57:09.949 --> 00:57:09.959
um,
1939
00:57:11.649 --> 00:57:13.600
which was part of the controversy actually in
1940
00:57:13.600 --> 00:57:16.669
the in the last execution by firing squad where
1941
00:57:17.010 --> 00:57:19.729
the autopsy found only 2 bullet entry wounds.
1942
00:57:20.219 --> 00:57:21.010
And
1943
00:57:21.709 --> 00:57:24.429
the Department of Corrections has maintained their argument is
1944
00:57:24.429 --> 00:57:26.250
that you know two bullets had to have entered
1945
00:57:27.429 --> 00:57:28.189
through the same hole,
1946
00:57:28.229 --> 00:57:28.570
which
1947
00:57:29.510 --> 00:57:30.270
may be possible.
1948
00:57:30.310 --> 00:57:31.550
I think it's strained a lot of people.
1949
00:57:31.620 --> 00:57:32.649
A lot of people have not
1950
00:57:32.790 --> 00:57:33.760
found that credible.
1951
00:57:33.850 --> 00:57:33.939
Um,
1952
00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:38.550
certainly people talked about at the last execution by
1953
00:57:38.550 --> 00:57:40.889
firing squad was an individual named Mikhail Mahdi.
1954
00:57:41.379 --> 00:57:41.429
You know,
1955
00:57:41.550 --> 00:57:43.649
he appeared to yell in pain
1956
00:57:43.860 --> 00:57:44.750
on being shot.
1957
00:57:45.149 --> 00:57:46.110
He appeared to.
1958
00:57:47.360 --> 00:57:48.770
Breathe for much longer.
1959
00:57:49.189 --> 00:57:51.629
The autopsy also subsequently found that it didn't
1960
00:57:52.030 --> 00:57:53.229
destroy the heart.
1961
00:57:53.310 --> 00:57:54.429
I mean it hit the chamber.
1962
00:57:54.500 --> 00:57:55.209
I mean it hit
1963
00:57:55.429 --> 00:57:55.750
the heart.
1964
00:57:55.790 --> 00:57:56.510
It sort of clipped it,
1965
00:57:56.550 --> 00:57:57.030
but
1966
00:57:57.949 --> 00:58:00.389
the path of the bullets was of much lower in the body.
1967
00:58:00.500 --> 00:58:01.370
They also only found
1968
00:58:02.909 --> 00:58:04.739
two bullet paths through the body,
1969
00:58:04.830 --> 00:58:08.370
so that's really cast a bit of a cloud of
1970
00:58:08.669 --> 00:58:11.629
suspicion and controversy over the firing squad here,
1971
00:58:11.750 --> 00:58:12.379
but.
1972
00:58:13.500 --> 00:58:13.739
You know,
1973
00:58:13.860 --> 00:58:14.820
the Department of Corrections is,
1974
00:58:14.889 --> 00:58:15.679
is sort of
1975
00:58:15.929 --> 00:58:16.979
stuck to their position on that,
1976
00:58:17.020 --> 00:58:19.300
and Nobody has found any conclusive evidence one way or
1977
00:58:19.300 --> 00:58:20.939
the other as to as to what could have happened.
1978
00:58:21.060 --> 00:58:21.350
But
1979
00:58:21.620 --> 00:58:21.699
yeah,
1980
00:58:21.820 --> 00:58:21.979
if,
1981
00:58:22.060 --> 00:58:23.300
if everything is going according to plan,
1982
00:58:23.449 --> 00:58:23.580
it's,
1983
00:58:23.649 --> 00:58:23.860
it's,
1984
00:58:23.939 --> 00:58:24.060
you know,
1985
00:58:24.139 --> 00:58:26.060
3 executioners with 3 rifles and,
1986
00:58:26.139 --> 00:58:27.199
and 3 bullets.
1987
00:58:27.659 --> 00:58:29.409
It's interesting they do an autopsy.
1988
00:58:29.629 --> 00:58:29.770
Like,
1989
00:58:29.780 --> 00:58:30.120
I mean,
1990
00:58:30.260 --> 00:58:31.939
they obviously know how the person died,
1991
00:58:31.979 --> 00:58:32.500
like,
1992
00:58:32.510 --> 00:58:32.520
yeah,
1993
00:58:33.179 --> 00:58:33.500
you know,
1994
00:58:33.580 --> 00:58:33.899
yeah,
1995
00:58:34.100 --> 00:58:34.300
yeah,
1996
00:58:34.419 --> 00:58:34.739
well,
1997
00:58:34.820 --> 00:58:35.219
you know,
1998
00:58:35.340 --> 00:58:35.810
um,
1999
00:58:35.939 --> 00:58:36.149
it's,
2000
00:58:36.209 --> 00:58:38.500
it's kind of one of the strange things about this.
2001
00:58:38.580 --> 00:58:38.739
I mean,
2002
00:58:38.820 --> 00:58:39.020
the,
2003
00:58:39.139 --> 00:58:39.570
the,
2004
00:58:39.820 --> 00:58:40.429
so we're,
2005
00:58:40.570 --> 00:58:40.739
uh,
2006
00:58:40.860 --> 00:58:42.290
we're in Richland County here,
2007
00:58:42.300 --> 00:58:42.699
the.
2008
00:58:43.020 --> 00:58:44.389
Execution takes place in Richland County.
2009
00:58:44.429 --> 00:58:44.629
I mean,
2010
00:58:44.709 --> 00:58:47.739
there's a representative of the Richland County coroner's Office on scene.
2011
00:58:47.790 --> 00:58:49.010
This gets recorded
2012
00:58:49.550 --> 00:58:50.679
as a homicide.
2013
00:58:50.870 --> 00:58:51.459
Um,
2014
00:58:51.709 --> 00:58:52.260
now,
2015
00:58:52.669 --> 00:58:53.709
not all,
2016
00:58:54.310 --> 00:58:55.540
not everyone has done an autopsy.
2017
00:58:55.590 --> 00:58:56.110
The first,
2018
00:58:56.149 --> 00:58:56.540
uh,
2019
00:58:56.620 --> 00:58:58.949
the first execution in South Carolina,
2020
00:58:59.270 --> 00:58:59.510
uh,
2021
00:58:59.669 --> 00:59:02.060
since the state resumed executions which took place last,
2022
00:59:02.070 --> 00:59:02.969
last September.
2023
00:59:03.260 --> 00:59:03.270
Um,
2024
00:59:03.929 --> 00:59:05.580
there was an individual named Freddie Owens.
2025
00:59:06.409 --> 00:59:07.000
His family,
2026
00:59:07.300 --> 00:59:07.479
uh,
2027
00:59:07.659 --> 00:59:08.739
didn't want an autopsy.
2028
00:59:08.820 --> 00:59:11.360
He had converted to Islam while in prison
2029
00:59:11.669 --> 00:59:12.419
and had sort of
2030
00:59:12.610 --> 00:59:14.110
religious convictions against it,
2031
00:59:14.320 --> 00:59:14.469
um,
2032
00:59:15.219 --> 00:59:16.129
but everybody else,
2033
00:59:16.219 --> 00:59:16.780
I think they,
2034
00:59:16.860 --> 00:59:19.699
they've either requested or their families have
2035
00:59:20.330 --> 00:59:21.340
agreed to an autopsy.
2036
00:59:21.419 --> 00:59:21.600
But
2037
00:59:22.010 --> 00:59:22.199
you know,
2038
00:59:22.340 --> 00:59:23.120
in theory.
2039
00:59:24.370 --> 00:59:25.270
Every homicide
2040
00:59:26.129 --> 00:59:26.409
in,
2041
00:59:26.489 --> 00:59:27.719
I mean in Richland County and I think pretty
2042
00:59:27.719 --> 00:59:30.110
much every county in the country is supposed to go
2043
00:59:30.689 --> 00:59:32.159
to autopsy and this is,
2044
00:59:32.250 --> 00:59:33.060
this is a homicide.
2045
00:59:33.090 --> 00:59:34.169
It gets the death certificate,
2046
00:59:34.290 --> 00:59:34.449
says,
2047
00:59:34.489 --> 00:59:35.229
I mean I think
2048
00:59:35.449 --> 00:59:38.550
you know I can't remember the exact wording but more or less state sanctioned
2049
00:59:38.850 --> 00:59:40.129
homicide so,
2050
00:59:40.489 --> 00:59:41.169
um,
2051
00:59:41.370 --> 00:59:42.270
it's really,
2052
00:59:42.489 --> 00:59:42.689
yeah,
2053
00:59:42.810 --> 00:59:45.330
it's sort of one of the strange parts about it.
2054
00:59:45.340 --> 00:59:48.030
I mean that it is still kind of treated as
2055
00:59:48.449 --> 00:59:49.090
um.
2056
00:59:50.090 --> 00:59:50.449
You know,
2057
00:59:50.570 --> 00:59:50.679
a,
2058
00:59:50.729 --> 00:59:50.840
a,
2059
00:59:50.889 --> 00:59:51.040
a,
2060
00:59:51.129 --> 00:59:53.810
a medico legal death as people say.
2061
00:59:53.850 --> 00:59:54.050
I mean,
2062
00:59:54.090 --> 00:59:54.250
you know,
2063
00:59:54.290 --> 00:59:54.929
they have this,
2064
00:59:55.290 --> 00:59:55.870
they have a
2065
00:59:56.010 --> 00:59:56.929
doctor on scene,
2066
00:59:57.050 --> 00:59:57.250
you know,
2067
00:59:57.330 --> 00:59:57.530
they're,
2068
00:59:57.649 --> 00:59:58.689
they're taking his pulse it is,
2069
00:59:58.729 --> 00:59:58.879
and,
2070
00:59:58.929 --> 00:59:59.800
and some people have,
2071
00:59:59.850 --> 01:00:00.010
um,
2072
01:00:00.090 --> 01:00:02.790
I know some in the medical profession have really kind of objected,
2073
01:00:02.820 --> 01:00:03.310
uh,
2074
01:00:03.770 --> 01:00:04.090
to that,
2075
01:00:04.169 --> 01:00:04.570
but it is,
2076
01:00:04.649 --> 01:00:05.370
it's one of the weird,
2077
01:00:05.449 --> 01:00:08.669
it's one of the sort of stranger parts of the parts of the system.
2078
01:00:09.800 --> 01:00:10.120
Um,
2079
01:00:10.199 --> 01:00:11.570
and I know just lastly,
2080
01:00:11.639 --> 01:00:12.699
like obviously this
2081
01:00:12.979 --> 01:00:13.639
isn't about you,
2082
01:00:13.719 --> 01:00:14.239
you're a reporter,
2083
01:00:14.280 --> 01:00:14.800
I'm a reporter,
2084
01:00:14.840 --> 01:00:15.229
I get it,
2085
01:00:15.239 --> 01:00:15.719
and like,
2086
01:00:15.949 --> 01:00:16.479
you know,
2087
01:00:16.840 --> 01:00:17.739
we have to do things
2088
01:00:18.520 --> 01:00:19.389
and report the story,
2089
01:00:19.439 --> 01:00:19.699
but
2090
01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:20.879
like when I've seen autopsy,
2091
01:00:20.919 --> 01:00:22.639
I mean I've obviously never seen anything like this,
2092
01:00:22.719 --> 01:00:23.909
but when I've seen autopsy photos,
2093
01:00:23.919 --> 01:00:25.050
it sort of has stuck with me.
2094
01:00:25.080 --> 01:00:25.290
I mean,
2095
01:00:25.310 --> 01:00:26.159
are you
2096
01:00:26.600 --> 01:00:28.469
like me you saw someone get executed.
2097
01:00:28.520 --> 01:00:29.139
That's pretty
2098
01:00:29.600 --> 01:00:30.120
strange,
2099
01:00:30.129 --> 01:00:30.260
you know,
2100
01:00:30.479 --> 01:00:31.010
is it like?
2101
01:00:31.060 --> 01:00:31.739
Do you feel weird?
2102
01:00:32.969 --> 01:00:33.760
Absolutely,
2103
01:00:33.889 --> 01:00:34.590
um,
2104
01:00:35.020 --> 01:00:35.669
you can't
2105
01:00:36.010 --> 01:00:36.290
not,
2106
01:00:36.409 --> 01:00:36.610
I mean,
2107
01:00:36.689 --> 01:00:37.080
it is,
2108
01:00:37.129 --> 01:00:37.870
it's.
2109
01:00:39.090 --> 01:00:40.429
It's completely
2110
01:00:40.810 --> 01:00:42.310
strange and
2111
01:00:42.969 --> 01:00:45.600
horrible and um.
2112
01:00:47.209 --> 01:00:47.219
Uh,
2113
01:00:48.169 --> 01:00:48.290
you know,
2114
01:00:48.370 --> 01:00:49.439
but it's not gruesome,
2115
01:00:49.689 --> 01:00:50.090
and that's,
2116
01:00:50.169 --> 01:00:51.590
that's really by design,
2117
01:00:51.770 --> 01:00:52.350
um,
2118
01:00:52.889 --> 01:00:53.469
I think the,
2119
01:00:53.570 --> 01:00:58.229
the Department of Corrections has really gone out of their way to try to control.
2120
01:00:59.040 --> 01:01:02.139
Every element of this as much as much as they can,
2121
01:01:02.199 --> 01:01:02.830
um,
2122
01:01:03.360 --> 01:01:04.699
and there are a lot of folks out there,
2123
01:01:04.719 --> 01:01:05.110
uh,
2124
01:01:05.120 --> 01:01:07.899
who are anti-death penalty advocates who.
2125
01:01:08.570 --> 01:01:10.250
I think that that's horrible in its own way,
2126
01:01:10.370 --> 01:01:10.610
uh,
2127
01:01:10.689 --> 01:01:11.159
that we've,
2128
01:01:11.409 --> 01:01:12.709
we sort of intentionally
2129
01:01:13.689 --> 01:01:14.909
sanitize,
2130
01:01:14.939 --> 01:01:15.639
uh,
2131
01:01:15.649 --> 01:01:16.429
this system,
2132
01:01:16.489 --> 01:01:19.110
but I mean the flip side of it means that you know when you,
2133
01:01:19.530 --> 01:01:20.239
when you view it,
2134
01:01:20.290 --> 01:01:20.909
you're not,
2135
01:01:21.850 --> 01:01:24.060
you're kind of shielded from how awful it is,
2136
01:01:24.110 --> 01:01:25.310
so I think you end up.
2137
01:01:26.399 --> 01:01:26.409
Really
2138
01:01:28.370 --> 01:01:30.620
clinging to these details,
2139
01:01:30.629 --> 01:01:31.139
um.
2140
01:01:32.100 --> 01:01:33.889
And I know
2141
01:01:34.370 --> 01:01:35.709
I'm speaking for myself,
2142
01:01:35.830 --> 01:01:37.209
I know that um.
2143
01:01:38.600 --> 01:01:38.760
You know,
2144
01:01:38.840 --> 01:01:40.500
I don't think that I'm ever going to forget
2145
01:01:41.399 --> 01:01:42.500
seeing his face
2146
01:01:43.959 --> 01:01:44.810
in that room,
2147
01:01:44.820 --> 01:01:44.830
um.
2148
01:01:46.209 --> 01:01:46.790
I don't
2149
01:01:47.030 --> 01:01:50.409
think that I'm ever going to forget what it looked like to
2150
01:01:51.010 --> 01:01:52.250
see the bullets hit that target,
2151
01:01:52.610 --> 01:01:52.770
you know,
2152
01:01:52.850 --> 01:01:54.639
this white and red target on this black chest.
2153
01:01:54.699 --> 01:01:55.679
I don't think I'm ever going to
2154
01:01:56.429 --> 01:01:56.939
forget what it,
2155
01:01:57.050 --> 01:01:57.239
you know,
2156
01:01:57.409 --> 01:01:58.330
looks like to see the,
2157
01:01:58.449 --> 01:01:59.679
the blood spreading across the shirt,
2158
01:01:59.689 --> 01:01:59.889
and I've,
2159
01:01:59.959 --> 01:02:00.050
you know,
2160
01:02:00.120 --> 01:02:00.790
I've covered.
2161
01:02:01.860 --> 01:02:04.699
Crime in courts and criminal justice for many years.
2162
01:02:04.739 --> 01:02:04.899
I mean,
2163
01:02:04.969 --> 01:02:06.080
I've talked to.
2164
01:02:07.439 --> 01:02:09.000
I've talked to people who've committed crimes.
2165
01:02:09.040 --> 01:02:09.239
I've,
2166
01:02:09.320 --> 01:02:09.520
you know,
2167
01:02:09.679 --> 01:02:10.979
like you and I've talked to the
2168
01:02:11.229 --> 01:02:11.510
vic,
2169
01:02:11.600 --> 01:02:11.800
you know,
2170
01:02:11.959 --> 01:02:13.820
family members of victims and
2171
01:02:15.050 --> 01:02:17.000
This is kind of the ultimate
2172
01:02:17.340 --> 01:02:17.979
end result,
2173
01:02:17.989 --> 01:02:21.340
and so I think it's important to not look away from it,
2174
01:02:21.459 --> 01:02:22.199
but it doesn't.
2175
01:02:22.870 --> 01:02:24.610
It doesn't make it any better,
2176
01:02:24.790 --> 01:02:25.469
and you know,
2177
01:02:25.510 --> 01:02:27.610
for all the sanitizing of it they can do.
2178
01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:29.159
You know,
2179
01:02:29.239 --> 01:02:29.780
I've seen
2180
01:02:30.520 --> 01:02:34.100
autopsy pictures from a firing squad execution in Utah actually,
2181
01:02:34.110 --> 01:02:34.350
uh,
2182
01:02:34.360 --> 01:02:36.340
where the records were a little more accessible
2183
01:02:36.760 --> 01:02:37.419
and
2184
01:02:37.959 --> 01:02:38.699
uh it's awful.
2185
01:02:38.800 --> 01:02:39.280
I mean it's,
2186
01:02:39.310 --> 01:02:39.600
it's,
2187
01:02:39.639 --> 01:02:39.989
it's,
2188
01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:40.620
uh,
2189
01:02:42.179 --> 01:02:42.310
it's a,
2190
01:02:42.919 --> 01:02:43.340
it's
2191
01:02:43.479 --> 01:02:45.020
you're shooting someone to death,
2192
01:02:45.159 --> 01:02:45.429
uh,
2193
01:02:45.439 --> 01:02:48.030
and I mean it absolutely destroys the body and those,
2194
01:02:48.080 --> 01:02:48.800
those pictures,
2195
01:02:48.840 --> 01:02:49.330
uh,
2196
01:02:49.679 --> 01:02:49.800
you know,
2197
01:02:49.879 --> 01:02:50.159
you don't,
2198
01:02:50.239 --> 01:02:50.750
you don't forget,
2199
01:02:50.800 --> 01:02:51.739
you don't forget those either.
2200
01:02:53.070 --> 01:02:53.510
Yeah,
2201
01:02:53.669 --> 01:02:54.020
well,
2202
01:02:54.229 --> 01:02:54.909
I appreciate you,
2203
01:02:54.949 --> 01:02:55.219
um,
2204
01:02:55.350 --> 01:02:55.860
talking with me,
2205
01:02:55.989 --> 01:02:56.189
Ted.
2206
01:02:56.229 --> 01:02:57.409
I know it's probably been a
2207
01:02:57.750 --> 01:02:59.010
kind of a crazy 24 hours,
2208
01:02:59.110 --> 01:02:59.709
but thank you,
2209
01:02:59.750 --> 01:02:59.979
um,
2210
01:03:00.080 --> 01:03:01.250
thank you for taking the time.
2211
01:03:01.709 --> 01:03:01.889
Yeah,
2212
01:03:01.989 --> 01:03:02.270
absolutely,
2213
01:03:02.389 --> 01:03:02.469
no,
2214
01:03:02.550 --> 01:03:03.370
thank you for having me on.
2215
01:03:03.620 --> 01:03:03.739
Really,
2216
01:03:03.830 --> 01:03:06.229
really appreciate Ted for taking the time to talk with me.
2217
01:03:06.550 --> 01:03:09.729
I'm obviously gonna stay on top of the situation in Tennessee
2218
01:03:10.429 --> 01:03:12.530
that's evolving really by the minute and
2219
01:03:12.989 --> 01:03:16.070
maybe we'll get more information soon about her condition.
2220
01:03:16.520 --> 01:03:16.830
Um,
2221
01:03:16.879 --> 01:03:18.120
but I'll keep you guys posted.
2222
01:03:18.239 --> 01:03:19.790
Appreciate everybody for watching.
2223
01:03:20.060 --> 01:03:21.100
Appreciate everybody who has,
2224
01:03:21.149 --> 01:03:21.379
uh,
2225
01:03:21.399 --> 01:03:23.699
subscribed to my channel and supports my content,
2226
01:03:24.080 --> 01:03:25.139
and I'll talk to you guys later.