Group B Rally: The Wild, Brief, Brilliant Era That Changed Everything

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John Summers is the motoring historian.
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He was a company car thrashing
technology sales rep that turned into
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a fairly inept sports bike rider.
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Hailing from California, he collects
cars and bikes built with plenty of
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cheap and fast, and not much reliable.
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On his show, he gets together with
various co hosts to talk about new
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and old cars, driving, motorbikes,
motor racing, and motoring travel.
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Have you seen that movie,
2001 A Space Odyssey?
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Yes, I have.
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You know, the black rock where the
monkeys are like, uh, uh, uh, uh,
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with the, that's me with technology.
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It's like the IT crowd where the internet
is in the box with the blinking light.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And you know, it is directly related to
what we're going to talk about tonight
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because I've been down this group B rat
hole for the last however many hours.
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All I've done is watch
group B rallying videos.
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And what I'm struck by is how fast
the technological Changes came.
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Yeah.
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You basically had today's world
rally car competing against
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Steve and Mike in an Escort Mk2.
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They prepared in Mark's dad's shed.
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That's been my learning.
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The changes were incremental, but the
increments were so incredibly fast.
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The organizers just did
not keep up with it.
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In other words, from.
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A 270 horse Opel Ascona 400 in
1982 at the beginning of Group B
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to 320 horse for the first Audis.
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And I've heard different figures and
you're probably better informed than me.
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But that's a big jump and there's
the jump around traction as well.
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But early on there was the
unreliability and, you know, the first
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year of Group B, well, should we?
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Actually do an intro here.
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I think we should, because we're going
to talk about one of my favorite topics,
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which I often feel completely alone
in the world with respect to rally.
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And it's, I think one of the, probably
the most interesting disciplines of
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motorsport, maybe one of the most
divisive when we really dig deep into the
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golden era of rally, which is group B.
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I'm really keen to do this Eric.
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Let me do my, uh, traditional
beginning of the episode.
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Good day.
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Good morning.
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Good afternoon.
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And welcome to the motoring historian
with John Summers and with Eric, his
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producer, Eric, there are two British
comedians called the two Ronnies.
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One of them was fat and funny.
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And the other one was
little and not so funny.
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And the little one would
always do a talk to the camera.
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And it always used to be very boring to
me when I was a small boy about Ollie's
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age, watching it, just because I wanted
to stay up and not go to bed, as you
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want to do when you're a small boy.
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And he would always tell a story sitting
in his chair, where he said, the producer
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said this, and the producer said that.
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And I was like, who the fuck
is this producer character?
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Is it his wife?
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And it was only when I got involved in
TV stuff that I was aware that there was
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always a producer there and you know in
the world of reality tv each star has
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their own producer right if the star
gets cut from the show the producer loses
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their income as well so the production
team is structured so that they wind up
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the reality tv stars to do the absurd
things that they do and we only see one
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side of the equation the Sistine Chapel
do you know who paid Michelangelo to
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paint that it was the Pope So that image
on the Sistine Chapel where there's all
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the completely inappropriate, is this,
what am I actually looking at here on the
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wall of a church stuff that Michelangelo
painted that was a direct dig at the Pope.
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He was biting the hand that fed it.
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And I use that metaphor with the
Sistine Chapel on purpose, right?
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That behind the artist, there's
always the financier is what
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I'm, uh, what I'm trying to say.
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And look, we're going to
talk about Group B rally.
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today and we're going to take it from a
perspective that we're going to set the
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scene a little bit Then we're going to
talk about the cars a little bit because
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you know These are the power behind the
throne right the pope vartanen is not
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vartanen without a really decent rally
car It is said that group b rally was
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more popular than Formula One at the time.
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That wasn't what I witnessed in period.
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What the was, was a capture
of the zeitgeist, right?
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Right.
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People who wouldn't turn on the TV
to watch a Formula One race, but
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people who were just like, you know,
Pamplona running of the bulls types.
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Those were the types who came from
the farms and it would stand at the
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side of the road in stupid places.
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Yes, and we'll get into that.
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Real rally fans, because I was nearly
run over by Bruno Sabe one time because
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I was standing in a stupid place.
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Sorry, Bruno.
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But, you know, it's really
short period, right?
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It's 82 to 86.
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So it's a very short period.
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And in that period, the
spectacle is incredible.
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The danger was palpable to everybody then.
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I was spat by it.
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For God's sake, I won't
fall down that rat hole.
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I won't do an aside now.
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I'll stay on course somewhat.
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So this fascinating thing with group
B is that it has resonated in a way
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that, oh my God, this group B stuff,
it is hot as you like, isn't it?
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And that's why I felt like it
was worth talking about it.
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So, so look, our title today is.
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Related to the presentation that I
promised I would give at the IMRRC,
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and I dare say, will appear in a future
episode, so by the time you're listening
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to this, that might have been published,
and then you yourself can see how well
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I've interpreted what Eric and I talk
about, how well I've turned that out.
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into what I present at the
IMRRC, which is The Real History.
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I think this is going to be
absolutely entertaining, but
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I feel underdressed today.
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Like, I don't have enough
quattro paraphernalia.
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I have a ton in the house.
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I just wanted to keep it subtle.
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I have no bias, no bias for this.
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So if you're watching this behind
the scenes on Patreon, you'll
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understand what we're talking about.
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See, with me, not only do you get
Rembrandt's Night Watch, but you
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also get all the sketches as well.
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I always like to go for the
jugular with this stuff.
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Everyone wants to know who
the greatest driver was.
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So you have to talk about that.
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But we can't talk about that
without talking about the cars.
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And we can't talk about that without
talking about the actual drivers.
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Canvas the actual backdrop against which
these events took place because that
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seems to be really important and I'll
talk about that in a minute, but let's
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begin at the beginning with that rules
package of what Group B really means.
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So the rules are very strange
because early Group B was all about
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homologation cars and around 1983.
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Um, When the horsepower numbers
doubled, they became evolution cars.
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So I think we need to split hairs
in terms of the rules package.
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You know, we're going
to talk about Lancia.
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We're going to talk about Audi.
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You mentioned the Citroen BX4TC, which
was designed to meet Group B regulations.
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But we also have to look at the cars
That carried over prior to group B.
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So I'll give a prime example.
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The lunch at 037 was adopted into group
B, but it was the replacement for the
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Stratos, which had just exited in 1978
1979 with Marco lane behind the wheel.
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So homologation rules versus.
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The evolution rules where
that all stems from.
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We have to go back and talk
about John Marie Balestra, who
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was at the head of world rally.
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It wasn't called WRC like it is today,
but as part of the FIA, he was at the
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head of what we would call WRC today.
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And the pages were mostly blank
as far as he was concerned.
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When you look back over reports and
documentaries that talk about Balestra.
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They talk about him more as a businessman.
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He was very coin operated.
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He could have cared less about racing.
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It was all about making money for the FIA.
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There was a cultural divide between
the frustration, both in Formula One,
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that these British garage Easters
were winning with these Ford V8s.
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100%.
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And you know who was winning in rally?
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Oh, it would have been lovely
if it was those Stratos.
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Yeah, it would have been, wouldn't it?
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But it wasn't.
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It was those.
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Fucking Fords again, wasn't it?
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It was.
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So there was this frustration.
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I learned this just last night.
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The rules were developed in
partnership with the manufacturer.
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Yes.
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So just like in Formula One, the turbos
were a deliberate attempt to destabilize
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The British hegemony, if you will, that at
least is one argument that you could make.
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I'm not trying to make it,
but it just occurred to me.
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How come the Metro 6R4
wasn't turbocharged?
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How come when Malcolm Wilson was
interviewed in the rally that he
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does in Equatro, he moans about turbo
lag when the Metro 6R4 is not laggy.
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Oh, I guess there was a lot of
politics lurking even behind the
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technical decisions that were made.
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There was, and the Metro 6R4 falls
into the evolution period of Group B,
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rather than the homologation period.
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Though it looked like an MG Metro
that was off the street, because that
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was always the facade, that was that
illusion that they wanted to paint.
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One thing though, Eric, you might not be
aware of this, being American and all.
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Peugeot ran very successful or very
memorable advertising campaign.
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It was in magazines.
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It was also advertisement hoardings,
and it was a picture of a 205 GTI and
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then reflected in a puddle nighttime.
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And it was like neon lights and the car
was black when reflected in the puddle.
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It was a T 16.
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So you've got the 205 on the 1.
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9 GTI.
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Alloys.
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And then in the reflection, you've
got the T16 on the rally car wheels.
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That ad alone lets you know how widely
understood, you know, the British public,
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the viewing public wouldn't recognize
what was going on here, that that was
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not just a car reflected in the puddle.
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It was a rally car reflected in
the puddle and it was the rally
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car that had won everything.
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And that's what drove Balestra was that
you would walk into the dealership and buy
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a Peugeot 205 Rally, but that was a front
wheel drive, front mount, 100 horsepower,
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GTI type of hatchback versus the Peugeot
205 T16 that you saw on the rally stage.
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They were selling the dream.
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They were selling the fantasy.
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If you think about Formula One at that
time, at the same time, yes, In period,
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Formula One was exciting, you have
Senna doing his thing in the rise, you
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have Andretti clinching his Formula One
championship, you have the rivalry quote
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unquote between Pironi and Villeneuve,
you have a lot of things happening there,
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but Formula One couldn't sell the dream.
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The same way that Raleigh could.
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So to your point for the FIA and for
Balestra, Raleigh is the golden child.
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It's where the money is being made.
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It's Indy versus NASCAR.
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Exactly.
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In that sense, Balestra
is sort of a big bill.
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Exactly.
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Who knew?
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Fascinating concept.
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So the evolution period of Group
B is just absolutely mental.
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But the thing is, we have to step
back to the homologation period.
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So again, that rules package, as dictated
by the FIA, said you have to build 200
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cars based on a production vehicle.
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Okay, well that's doable.
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That lasted until 1984.
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And for that, I would say the
Audi was forward looking, right?
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Yes.
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Feel like you could buy a road car.
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The other Group B cars at that time were
stuff that was not so different from,
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you know, the Escorts of the 1970s.
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Opel Manta, all those kinds.
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The Manta 400 is the
key evolution, isn't it?
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The previous version of the Manta is the
Escona, I now understand, and, you know,
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the Manta was better balanced than the
Bit more power according to Jimmy McCray,
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but this is fundamentally 270 horse.
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Yeah, normally aspirated, but there
was a lot of games that were being
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played by the different manufacturers.
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It wasn't hard for Audi
to crank out 200 cars.
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I mean, they sent 627 UR
Quattros to the United States.
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They sold 10 times that amount
in the United Kingdom alone.
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So the homologation rules were really
strange and the way they worked was
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sort of like Stock car used to be where
it needed to be based on a production
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car, just like Trans Am was in the 80s.
230
00:12:33,900 --> 00:12:36,839
It needed to be based on the
Firebird that you could buy from
231
00:12:36,839 --> 00:12:39,240
Chevrolet and that you could do
whatever you wanted with the motor.
232
00:12:39,339 --> 00:12:42,760
Even at 300 horsepower when
the Audis hit the scene.
233
00:12:42,994 --> 00:12:44,964
That was not what was in the street car.
234
00:12:45,014 --> 00:12:48,764
The Audi's five cylinder
was a 20 valve, 2.
235
00:12:48,764 --> 00:12:52,104
1 liter turbo making
somewhere between 275 and 320.
236
00:12:52,114 --> 00:12:53,384
The numbers are all over the map.
237
00:12:53,444 --> 00:12:59,664
The homologation car made 165
horsepower with a 10 valve turbo.
238
00:12:59,874 --> 00:13:04,194
So the homologation rules, you
had to have 200 at a minimum
239
00:13:04,264 --> 00:13:06,624
production cars sold in dealerships.
240
00:13:06,624 --> 00:13:08,344
It didn't matter where
it was in the world.
241
00:13:08,514 --> 00:13:12,354
And then you could qualify
to modify it for WRC.
242
00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:17,820
And again, that lasted until 1984, and
to your point, the Opel Manta 400 was
243
00:13:17,820 --> 00:13:21,730
one of the first cars, but the one that
really kind of just punched everybody
244
00:13:21,730 --> 00:13:26,500
in the gut was when Audi decided to cut
almost 13 inches out of the wheelbase
245
00:13:26,589 --> 00:13:30,619
on the Quattro and created the Shorty,
or the short wheelbase Quattro, or
246
00:13:30,620 --> 00:13:32,160
the sport Quattro, it's referred to.
247
00:13:32,260 --> 00:13:35,805
They had to then produce 200 of
those for the street, of which
248
00:13:35,805 --> 00:13:37,465
they sold six in the United States.
249
00:13:37,465 --> 00:13:38,955
And then the rest went all over the world.
250
00:13:39,115 --> 00:13:45,015
But the shorty is where you
suddenly saw in 1983 and 84.
251
00:13:45,015 --> 00:13:48,584
It's like Peugeot, Renault, Lancia.
252
00:13:48,585 --> 00:13:50,165
And everybody's going,
wait, hold on a second.
253
00:13:50,165 --> 00:13:50,924
What do you guys wait?
254
00:13:50,925 --> 00:13:52,265
We're allowed to cut the cars now.
255
00:13:52,475 --> 00:13:53,715
This isn't a production chat.
256
00:13:53,935 --> 00:13:55,415
What do you guys, what are you doing here?
257
00:13:55,515 --> 00:13:59,275
And so now begin the period
of the evolution cars.
258
00:13:59,315 --> 00:14:01,215
And so Balestra stands back and he goes.
259
00:14:01,455 --> 00:14:02,815
The fans are loving it.
260
00:14:02,985 --> 00:14:08,205
We've got 300, 000 people lining the
roads in Portugal to watch you crazy
261
00:14:08,205 --> 00:14:12,145
bastards go down at 130 miles an hour
and hope that nobody gets killed.
262
00:14:12,185 --> 00:14:14,204
And so the power numbers
continue to increase.
263
00:14:14,204 --> 00:14:16,144
It became like a space race.
264
00:14:16,454 --> 00:14:18,094
Oh, like the Mille Miglia in the fifties.
265
00:14:18,135 --> 00:14:19,085
Exactly.
266
00:14:19,085 --> 00:14:21,174
It was completely an
accident waiting to happen.
267
00:14:21,175 --> 00:14:24,305
I've watched, as I say, for the
last 24 hours, all I've done.
268
00:14:24,525 --> 00:14:32,255
Is watch all of the rally reports from the
1983, 1984, 1985, and 1986 RAC rallies.
269
00:14:32,355 --> 00:14:34,395
So that was the lens that
I had when I was a boy.
270
00:14:34,575 --> 00:14:39,164
I'm just stupefied that when you've
got guys like Mikkola saying, you know,
271
00:14:39,175 --> 00:14:43,164
the straights are getting shorter and
the corners, they are coming quicker.
272
00:14:43,334 --> 00:14:45,155
Oh man, it was.
273
00:14:45,235 --> 00:14:49,394
I mean, if you go back to the
early days of rally with the Lancia
274
00:14:49,394 --> 00:14:52,655
Fulvias and stuff like that, they
did 85 miles an hour downhill.
275
00:14:52,655 --> 00:14:53,625
If they were lucky.
276
00:14:53,780 --> 00:14:57,449
So as we said in the beginning,
you know, Group B started in 81 and
277
00:14:57,449 --> 00:14:59,040
you had a lot of carryover cars.
278
00:14:59,210 --> 00:15:04,290
The Lancia 037 is still in Group
B by the rules because they sold
279
00:15:04,290 --> 00:15:06,609
homologation versions of it on
the street and things like that.
280
00:15:06,609 --> 00:15:09,309
But it was based on the
Lancia Beta Monte Carlo.
281
00:15:09,510 --> 00:15:10,930
It wasn't really, was it?
282
00:15:11,210 --> 00:15:15,480
I mean, I always think Lancia completely
took the piss with the designer cars.
283
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,910
I always felt like Audi,
at least it vaguely.
284
00:15:17,970 --> 00:15:18,390
Yes.
285
00:15:18,430 --> 00:15:21,990
Whereas Lancia, you were like, what,
what, that, like that Delta S4.
286
00:15:21,990 --> 00:15:26,190
I mean, that looked like nothing, like
no fucking road car you could ever buy.
287
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:27,760
The Stratos.
288
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,820
Was the beginning, arguably the
Stratos was the first prototype
289
00:15:30,830 --> 00:15:35,020
rally car, although I just think
the Alpine A110 is more of that.
290
00:15:35,070 --> 00:15:35,520
I would agree.
291
00:15:35,550 --> 00:15:39,139
That was sort of positioned as a road
car to like slide under the rules.
292
00:15:39,140 --> 00:15:42,260
Whereas again, Lancia just completely
took a piss and put a Formula One
293
00:15:42,260 --> 00:15:44,419
engine in a bespoke chassis and.
294
00:15:44,579 --> 00:15:46,930
Well, the Stratos was a Dino 246 motor.
295
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:51,850
Yeah, it was a Ferrari derived from the
engine that bloody Tony Brooks had used
296
00:15:51,850 --> 00:15:54,140
to win the 1959 British Grand Prix.
297
00:15:54,140 --> 00:15:56,750
You know, really it was, it
was that engine, which, uh.
298
00:15:57,260 --> 00:15:59,310
Lancia invented the V6, did you know that?
299
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,780
I did know that, yeah, in the
Aurelia, if I remember correctly.
300
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:08,780
Yeah, well, so let's talk about events,
right, because that is really, I, I think,
301
00:16:08,839 --> 00:16:12,889
worth talking about that, you know, for
me, I've said in the past that I fell in
302
00:16:12,889 --> 00:16:16,080
love with, you know, motorsport really
through rallying and it was because
303
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:21,210
rallying made the equivalent of wide
world of sport it was called grandstand
304
00:16:21,210 --> 00:16:27,209
and rallying made grandstand and looking
back it captured the imagination of the
305
00:16:27,209 --> 00:16:32,670
british people so the lens for me is
the traditional season ending event the
306
00:16:32,670 --> 00:16:37,820
lombard rec rally of great britain the
thing about this event is no pace notes
307
00:16:37,820 --> 00:16:42,500
every other event you're allowed pace
notes for I guess the striking thing
308
00:16:42,510 --> 00:16:46,730
for me is that the season will begin
with Monte Carlo, the Monte Carlo rally.
309
00:16:46,730 --> 00:16:47,980
So this is snow and ice.
310
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,890
They do the one in Finland called
the Thousand Lakes, which is when
311
00:16:51,890 --> 00:16:54,830
you've seen rally cars jumping,
that's where it's going to be.
312
00:16:54,929 --> 00:16:59,229
The one in Africa, the safari rally,
that was always won by local people.
313
00:16:59,360 --> 00:16:59,539
Yeah.
314
00:16:59,539 --> 00:17:01,850
Like they weren't even
sent the first time.
315
00:17:01,860 --> 00:17:04,069
Valtteror, Valtteror
had been a rally driver.
316
00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:05,670
He'd been world rally champion.
317
00:17:05,889 --> 00:17:09,220
Once before he even went to
the thousand lakes, because he
318
00:17:09,220 --> 00:17:10,950
was like, why would I go there?
319
00:17:10,990 --> 00:17:13,909
It's like a pissing
competition between these fins.
320
00:17:13,909 --> 00:17:16,929
And I just, you know, I didn't
grow up driving these roads.
321
00:17:16,929 --> 00:17:20,910
I'm just not gonna be a madman to
try and, you know, mix it with them.
322
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:26,309
So the events are from a spectacle
perspective, perhaps similar
323
00:17:26,309 --> 00:17:31,279
to the way that they are at the
moment, but the endurance that
324
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,870
was expected of cruise is just.
325
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:36,470
boggles the mind today.
326
00:17:36,610 --> 00:17:40,270
We have to put it in perspective
for those that don't know as
327
00:17:40,270 --> 00:17:41,480
much as we do about Group B.
328
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:47,330
So first of all, 1981 to 1986,
12 countries in a season all
329
00:17:47,330 --> 00:17:48,409
over the world, to your point.
330
00:17:48,419 --> 00:17:50,769
It could be Corsica, it could
be Portugal, it could be Kenya,
331
00:17:50,769 --> 00:17:52,449
it could be up in Scandinavia.
332
00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:55,679
They did over 5, 000
kilometers of driving.
333
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,639
And this wasn't driving down the
highway down the A1 or the M1.
334
00:17:59,689 --> 00:18:05,645
This is 5, 000 hard
kilometers at breaking speeds.
335
00:18:05,745 --> 00:18:12,264
The 1985 RAC Rally, I learned
that from Tuesday night until
336
00:18:12,284 --> 00:18:17,849
Thursday morning, the end of the
rally, there was 10 hours of halt.
337
00:18:17,999 --> 00:18:23,669
So you could expect to get perhaps
five hours sleep, not counting the time
338
00:18:23,669 --> 00:18:27,799
that you can sleep in the passenger
seat whilst the co drivers driving.
339
00:18:27,809 --> 00:18:31,749
The route around England in
five days was 2, 000 miles.
340
00:18:32,249 --> 00:18:36,044
Vartanen was like, you know, are
they trying to do a parry dakka?
341
00:18:36,044 --> 00:18:36,399
That.
342
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,409
Did not mix and that's this is something
this is why I wanted to start out
343
00:18:40,409 --> 00:18:45,489
by talking about the events because
that didn't mix With the cars as they
344
00:18:45,489 --> 00:18:50,849
were coming along and and involving
let's Talk first about the cars.
345
00:18:50,939 --> 00:18:55,340
Then we'll talk about the drivers
and then You know, hopefully
346
00:18:55,340 --> 00:18:57,550
come to some kind of conclusions.
347
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:04,969
So clearly these early cars, the
Ascona 400, the Renault 5 Turbo,
348
00:19:04,970 --> 00:19:10,720
these two wheel drive things were
not competitive as time went on.
349
00:19:10,985 --> 00:19:15,685
I watched one event from the, like
the British Open Rally Championship
350
00:19:15,695 --> 00:19:17,644
from the beginning of 1982.
351
00:19:17,735 --> 00:19:23,134
You've got Vatanen fully brain out in
an Escort, which has got to have the
352
00:19:23,134 --> 00:19:25,804
same horsepower as the Opel Manta.
353
00:19:25,804 --> 00:19:32,534
And you've got Micola with a quattro
struggling to come to terms with not
354
00:19:32,534 --> 00:19:36,944
knowing the roads as well, the car being
understeery and then bits and pieces
355
00:19:36,955 --> 00:19:42,674
breaking on it all the time because it
was so many revolutionary technology.
356
00:19:42,804 --> 00:19:46,985
The cars were popular, they were hot,
but we also saw them at Geneva in
357
00:19:46,995 --> 00:19:51,284
1980 and they were prototyped in 1979.
358
00:19:51,414 --> 00:19:53,735
And so people were already
excited about this.
359
00:19:54,154 --> 00:19:58,864
production car with all wheel drive
and it's unique and it's different
360
00:19:58,864 --> 00:20:01,164
and Volkswagen thing it was based on.
361
00:20:01,174 --> 00:20:02,244
When did that come out?
362
00:20:02,374 --> 00:20:06,324
So the Iltis, if we go all
the way back to World War II.
363
00:20:07,164 --> 00:20:08,034
Oh, all right.
364
00:20:08,074 --> 00:20:09,564
Oh, it's right the way back there.
365
00:20:09,644 --> 00:20:12,124
Yeah, it comes post World War II.
366
00:20:12,194 --> 00:20:16,154
All the language the British
commentators talk about Audi's approach.
367
00:20:16,204 --> 00:20:19,394
William Woolard talks about
military precision, you know,
368
00:20:19,664 --> 00:20:20,634
they're not quite there.
369
00:20:20,694 --> 00:20:25,394
British commentators flirt with that kind
of thing all the time, very noticeably.
370
00:20:25,454 --> 00:20:28,554
So if we drop the pin all the way
back there, you have to realize
371
00:20:28,715 --> 00:20:32,465
In World War II, the Germans used
the Kübelwagen, which was sold in
372
00:20:32,475 --> 00:20:34,235
the United States as the VW Thing.
373
00:20:34,284 --> 00:20:36,624
So that was their military jeep.
374
00:20:36,654 --> 00:20:38,164
But remember, it's based on a Beetle.
375
00:20:38,184 --> 00:20:41,354
It's rear wheel drive, rear
engine, every problem that a Beetle
376
00:20:41,364 --> 00:20:43,084
has, the Kübelwagen had as well.
377
00:20:43,284 --> 00:20:47,225
Post war, when they were still able
to develop and refine and this and
378
00:20:47,225 --> 00:20:50,064
that, they were building other military
vehicles because there were other
379
00:20:50,064 --> 00:20:51,294
wars that were happening, right?
380
00:20:51,294 --> 00:20:54,455
You had the war in Korea, and later on you
had Vietnam and all these kinds of things.
381
00:20:54,465 --> 00:20:57,689
So the Iltis Was born
and you can look this up.
382
00:20:57,689 --> 00:21:04,100
The Volkswagen Iltis I L T I S was the
first for Volkswagen, all mechanical,
383
00:21:04,249 --> 00:21:08,889
all wheel drive system, punching
in the nose, other mechanical all
384
00:21:08,889 --> 00:21:10,299
wheel drive systems that existed.
385
00:21:10,549 --> 00:21:11,499
Ahead of the Jeep.
386
00:21:11,579 --> 00:21:16,189
I'd have to look at who did it first,
but I will say the Iltis was better
387
00:21:16,229 --> 00:21:19,299
because if you look at the trials that
they did with the Iltis, that thing
388
00:21:19,299 --> 00:21:21,169
could almost climb a vertical wall.
389
00:21:21,209 --> 00:21:21,419
Right.
390
00:21:21,419 --> 00:21:23,199
Is it insane how good it was?
391
00:21:23,439 --> 00:21:25,149
So they basically lifted that.
392
00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:27,679
Longitudinal design and
they're like, we're going to
393
00:21:27,679 --> 00:21:28,809
put that in a production car.
394
00:21:28,809 --> 00:21:33,299
And that was the result of the brainchild
of Roland Gumper, who, as we know,
395
00:21:33,299 --> 00:21:34,749
later designed his own car company.
396
00:21:34,749 --> 00:21:36,969
He was at the head of Audi
development for a long time.
397
00:21:36,979 --> 00:21:38,819
Very famous in German circles.
398
00:21:38,929 --> 00:21:40,219
Pieck is team manager.
399
00:21:40,370 --> 00:21:41,139
Am I correct?
400
00:21:41,199 --> 00:21:41,569
Yes.
401
00:21:41,739 --> 00:21:42,099
Okay.
402
00:21:42,099 --> 00:21:46,419
So that's for people who don't know,
that's the dude that did the Porsche 917.
403
00:21:46,449 --> 00:21:51,754
The dude that will go on to do the Bugatti
Veyron because, you know, cars are going
404
00:21:51,754 --> 00:21:53,454
to be all green in the 21st century.
405
00:21:53,485 --> 00:21:57,944
So we need a quad turbo V16, don't we?
406
00:21:57,984 --> 00:22:01,934
Most people will associate Ferdinand
Piëch with the Volkswagen Phaeton.
407
00:22:02,064 --> 00:22:03,834
That was sort of his swan song.
408
00:22:03,874 --> 00:22:05,844
You mean the Bentley Continental?
409
00:22:05,904 --> 00:22:07,224
Yeah, you mean the Audi 88L?
410
00:22:07,834 --> 00:22:13,954
This is why I'm faintly uncomfortable with
what Audi and Lamborghini are a wild bull.
411
00:22:14,179 --> 00:22:16,899
Bentleys are occasionally
faster than them.
412
00:22:16,899 --> 00:22:21,539
You can't snack rank them in your
nice little German brand thing.
413
00:22:21,539 --> 00:22:22,979
No, I rebel.
414
00:22:23,049 --> 00:22:27,549
But all that to say, it is a bit of a
coven or a mafia when you think about
415
00:22:27,549 --> 00:22:32,619
it, because Audi, Volkswagen, and Porsche
have really always been almost in bed
416
00:22:32,619 --> 00:22:34,709
together, if you use that analogy.
417
00:22:34,709 --> 00:22:39,634
But the thing is, Audi, being the auto
union going all the way back to the days
418
00:22:39,634 --> 00:22:43,984
of the silver arrows been around for
forever already had a racing pedigree
419
00:22:43,984 --> 00:22:48,034
and those kinds of things and just as
an aside it's a footnote audi didn't
420
00:22:48,034 --> 00:22:53,564
become part of the volkswagen audi group
officially until 1985 bear that in mind
421
00:22:53,575 --> 00:22:56,284
they were getting the support because
talks were already there and this and
422
00:22:56,284 --> 00:23:01,249
that but audi was this Cutting edge,
very different, always thinking outside
423
00:23:01,249 --> 00:23:04,899
of the box, one of the biggest problems
having owned many Audis from the 80s and
424
00:23:04,899 --> 00:23:09,669
the 90s especially, they used the public
as their test bed for new technologies.
425
00:23:09,679 --> 00:23:12,519
And it's like, well it might work,
it might not work, they're plagued
426
00:23:12,519 --> 00:23:15,869
with electrical gremlins, but the
ideas were way ahead of their time.
427
00:23:16,039 --> 00:23:20,614
First car I ever had to stop
start on was uh, an Audi 80.
428
00:23:20,844 --> 00:23:26,414
On the way to a rugby match, aged
about 9 or 10, it completely made
429
00:23:26,424 --> 00:23:28,174
up for the fact that I hated rugby.
430
00:23:29,084 --> 00:23:31,234
You know, I'd never known
a car do that before.
431
00:23:31,245 --> 00:23:35,974
It was, I felt the same way about that
technology now as I do then, which is
432
00:23:36,014 --> 00:23:40,214
that the kind of old Fords my dad had
in damp England, when they started, you
433
00:23:40,254 --> 00:23:41,864
generally didn't want to turn them off.
434
00:23:41,884 --> 00:23:44,614
In case they might not want
to start again early on.
435
00:23:44,614 --> 00:23:44,864
Right.
436
00:23:44,904 --> 00:23:49,214
I think we can say that probably in
the very early days of group B, the
437
00:23:49,214 --> 00:23:57,044
best car was not the Audi as we move
through, certainly by 83, you can say.
438
00:23:57,230 --> 00:24:01,760
very much that it was, but then
the moment somebody else did a new
439
00:24:01,790 --> 00:24:07,209
car, so when the Peugeot 205 T16
came, that car made the champion.
440
00:24:07,219 --> 00:24:11,929
When the Lancia Delta S4 came,
that car made the championship.
441
00:24:11,929 --> 00:24:16,360
Arguably the RS200, the Ford
was the next step over that.
442
00:24:16,540 --> 00:24:20,610
So I think this whitewash of the
question, which car was best, is it
443
00:24:20,620 --> 00:24:23,270
depends exactly which year you're asking.
444
00:24:23,439 --> 00:24:27,454
Our debate Has Audi versus
Lancia versus Peugeot.
445
00:24:27,594 --> 00:24:29,464
Yeah, and I agree with what you're saying.
446
00:24:29,464 --> 00:24:32,514
It's almost like debating the
vintages of wines, you know.
447
00:24:32,514 --> 00:24:37,674
Is the 71 bottling of Chateau
whatever as good as the 72 and the 73?
448
00:24:37,814 --> 00:24:40,414
And that's sort of where we're
at, and we do have to split hairs
449
00:24:40,434 --> 00:24:43,224
because as you mentioned in the
beginning, the technology jumps.
450
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,099
Very, very quickly, but some
of it is a bit quid pro quo.
451
00:24:47,109 --> 00:24:48,509
Some of it is tit for tat.
452
00:24:48,629 --> 00:24:51,109
Some of it is completely reactionary.
453
00:24:51,199 --> 00:24:55,219
So I want to highlight the years because
it's really important to understand this
454
00:24:55,289 --> 00:24:58,209
reaction and why the technology moves.
455
00:24:58,219 --> 00:25:00,839
So you mentioned it
before looking at 1982.
456
00:25:01,049 --> 00:25:03,529
You have Hana Mikola struggling.
457
00:25:03,834 --> 00:25:10,235
With the long base quattro coupe and it
just understeers like a broken ox cart
458
00:25:10,264 --> 00:25:11,995
through every turn and you can see it.
459
00:25:11,995 --> 00:25:16,995
I mean the amount of wheel deflection and
everything that's happening and having
460
00:25:17,084 --> 00:25:20,244
owned a UR quattro that polar moment.
461
00:25:20,495 --> 00:25:23,945
Of having that cast iron five
cylinder hanging out over
462
00:25:23,955 --> 00:25:25,374
the front end of that car.
463
00:25:25,674 --> 00:25:30,524
That was not the best design from
a weight balance proportionally.
464
00:25:30,534 --> 00:25:31,674
So that's why it makes sense.
465
00:25:31,674 --> 00:25:32,984
The mid engine cars came later.
466
00:25:33,144 --> 00:25:36,854
But the thing is they worked
with what they had because that's
467
00:25:36,854 --> 00:25:38,499
how the Iltis was laid out.
468
00:25:38,659 --> 00:25:42,669
It was front mount longitudinal
with this boat anchor hanging
469
00:25:42,669 --> 00:25:43,919
out over the front wheels.
470
00:25:44,079 --> 00:25:46,699
So they're like, we're going to
keep refining this technology.
471
00:25:46,699 --> 00:25:47,579
It's very German.
472
00:25:47,589 --> 00:25:49,459
We're going to evolve
it until it's perfect.
473
00:25:49,489 --> 00:25:50,579
Just look at the 911.
474
00:25:50,619 --> 00:25:51,799
It's incredibly German.
475
00:25:51,879 --> 00:25:52,979
It really is.
476
00:25:53,379 --> 00:25:53,629
Yeah.
477
00:25:53,809 --> 00:25:57,590
If you look at the Audi, you're
right, they struggled every time they
478
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,989
won, it was a miracle that they did.
479
00:25:59,999 --> 00:26:04,279
And they were getting beat by
Vauxhall Chevettes and Talbot would
480
00:26:04,299 --> 00:26:05,969
be equivalent to like the Omni.
481
00:26:06,049 --> 00:26:09,499
Oh, no, no, Eric, not the
equivalent of the Omni.
482
00:26:09,499 --> 00:26:13,429
I just wanna, the Omni
we got as the Horizon.
483
00:26:13,429 --> 00:26:13,869
Yes.
484
00:26:13,879 --> 00:26:17,949
It was a shortened, narrow version
of that with a Lotus twin cam.
485
00:26:17,959 --> 00:26:18,289
Yes.
486
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,510
Which in silver and black,
those really look the business.
487
00:26:22,510 --> 00:26:24,110
They were a tasty car.
488
00:26:24,159 --> 00:26:28,999
And I say that as a committed Ford
guy, as a committed, which of the
489
00:26:28,999 --> 00:26:30,919
seventies rally cars would I have had?
490
00:26:30,919 --> 00:26:33,579
I'd probably have an escort
even now over Stratos.
491
00:26:33,729 --> 00:26:34,149
I would.
492
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,250
So in that mix, you still have
Nissan, you have some Toyotas in
493
00:26:37,250 --> 00:26:39,879
there, all rear wheel drive layouts.
494
00:26:39,979 --> 00:26:43,360
And the reason they were beating
the Quattro in the early days.
495
00:26:43,564 --> 00:26:47,744
And Quatro did finally show
its superiority is that they
496
00:26:47,754 --> 00:26:49,544
could rotate through a corner.
497
00:26:49,664 --> 00:26:55,094
And that understeer, that polar moment,
that big brick that's up in front
498
00:26:55,094 --> 00:26:57,364
of the Audi was its Achilles heel.
499
00:26:57,674 --> 00:26:58,954
Eric, let's call a spade a spade.
500
00:26:58,984 --> 00:26:59,964
It looked crap.
501
00:27:00,574 --> 00:27:01,354
It looks crap.
502
00:27:01,474 --> 00:27:02,634
It sounds amazing.
503
00:27:02,654 --> 00:27:06,044
Steering your way to victory,
like there's no glory in that.
504
00:27:06,124 --> 00:27:10,224
The glory lies in Ari Vartanen
with one wheel in the ditch and
505
00:27:10,224 --> 00:27:11,774
all the dirt out of the back.
506
00:27:11,864 --> 00:27:13,974
Oh, 100%, 100%.
507
00:27:14,104 --> 00:27:17,984
When he won the RAC Rally in 1984,
he was leading the whole event,
508
00:27:18,104 --> 00:27:21,404
apart from a few minutes after
he had a roll on the last day.
509
00:27:21,474 --> 00:27:24,134
You would roll it on the last, like, what?
510
00:27:24,224 --> 00:27:27,744
He was so cavalier about that, he's
like, well, that's my weekend, it's over.
511
00:27:27,824 --> 00:27:31,214
So Audi's response to getting
beat by rear wheel drive cars,
512
00:27:32,245 --> 00:27:37,004
That the all wheel drive could and
would be superior in the long run.
513
00:27:37,104 --> 00:27:41,264
They had to make the car pivot somehow,
but they couldn't move the motor because
514
00:27:41,274 --> 00:27:45,184
the homologation rules said it had
to be based on a production vehicle.
515
00:27:45,194 --> 00:27:48,174
They didn't have a mid engine
production car at that time.
516
00:27:48,214 --> 00:27:50,554
Now there's some other concepts
and prototypes we can go down
517
00:27:50,554 --> 00:27:53,754
rabbit holes about, but the
point is their solution was.
518
00:27:54,070 --> 00:27:57,969
The wheelbase of the Audi is longer
than all of these rear wheel drive cars.
519
00:27:57,989 --> 00:27:59,199
What if we shorten it?
520
00:27:59,259 --> 00:28:03,189
So if they shorten it, which they
shortened it almost 13 inches, it caused
521
00:28:03,209 --> 00:28:07,439
the car to become extremely twitchy and
it made it easier for them to rotate.
522
00:28:07,679 --> 00:28:12,364
Now what people with the lens of
today's WRC don't understand is, We're
523
00:28:12,364 --> 00:28:17,024
still running three pedals back then,
and nobody had Billy Club hydraulic
524
00:28:17,024 --> 00:28:21,124
handbrakes that they could just wrap
on next to their sequential gearboxes.
525
00:28:21,164 --> 00:28:24,154
You weren't yanking the handbrake
to get the car to come around.
526
00:28:24,164 --> 00:28:25,714
That wasn't an emergency type of thing.
527
00:28:25,734 --> 00:28:29,534
So that's why you see the famous videos
of Walter Rural jumping on the pedals and
528
00:28:29,534 --> 00:28:33,934
left foot braking, and left foot braking
became a thing because of Rally, because
529
00:28:34,104 --> 00:28:35,664
they needed to keep the turbos spooled up.
530
00:28:35,674 --> 00:28:38,704
But it also helped them to
get the car to pitch in.
531
00:28:40,050 --> 00:28:42,899
Eric Carlson did that in
those two stroke Saabs.
532
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,150
They had so little power, he
would just, like, you never
533
00:28:45,150 --> 00:28:46,373
wanted to let them lose weight.
534
00:28:46,373 --> 00:28:48,899
He'd just keep his foot on the
throttle and dab at the brake.
535
00:28:48,970 --> 00:28:49,949
Yeah, exactly.
536
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,110
So the other thing that they did was,
when the Sport Quattro came out in 83,
537
00:28:54,260 --> 00:28:56,230
they also started to reduce the weight.
538
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,745
What people don't realize is the long
wheelbase cars, We're still sheet metal.
539
00:29:00,985 --> 00:29:05,125
They were still very much a
factory car that you could buy,
540
00:29:05,225 --> 00:29:06,514
but with a lot more horsepower.
541
00:29:06,665 --> 00:29:10,684
The thing was, the five
cylinder is an overbuilt engine.
542
00:29:10,744 --> 00:29:13,485
It's extremely reliable even to this day.
543
00:29:13,554 --> 00:29:14,995
It revs like a four.
544
00:29:15,034 --> 00:29:16,725
It has the torque of a six.
545
00:29:17,010 --> 00:29:19,950
But when you put it with a
turbo, suddenly it wakes up.
546
00:29:20,020 --> 00:29:20,690
It's alive.
547
00:29:20,700 --> 00:29:24,340
It has like tremendous horsepower
and it can turn to 10, 000
548
00:29:24,340 --> 00:29:25,530
RPM without batting an eye.
549
00:29:25,649 --> 00:29:30,309
Audi brought the turbos to WRC, but
that was being borrowed from Formula
550
00:29:30,309 --> 00:29:34,710
One technology because the turbo
era had already come to Formula One.
551
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,680
But in a strange way, turbos
made more sense in rally,
552
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,560
even though they were laggy.
553
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,290
Volkswagen, Audi,
Porsche working together.
554
00:29:43,290 --> 00:29:45,259
Where did the turbo technology come from?
555
00:29:45,414 --> 00:29:50,485
From the 9 11 that had already come out
in the late 70s in 1975 78 with the 9
556
00:29:50,495 --> 00:29:51,844
thirties, you know, things like that.
557
00:29:51,854 --> 00:29:54,004
So it wasn't a foreign concept.
558
00:29:54,054 --> 00:29:57,274
So, when the sport quattro came
out slightly bigger engine 2.
559
00:29:57,274 --> 00:29:58,545
2 liter all the way up to 2.
560
00:29:58,545 --> 00:30:00,404
3 at 1 point and things like that.
561
00:30:00,644 --> 00:30:02,434
And that motor continued to evolve.
562
00:30:02,574 --> 00:30:03,574
Suddenly it was made of.
563
00:30:03,734 --> 00:30:08,234
Carbon kevlar and it had crank fire
ignition and it had some other tricky
564
00:30:08,234 --> 00:30:11,914
bits that later became the torsion
torque sensing differentials and all
565
00:30:11,914 --> 00:30:14,884
this stuff that they were working
on and in one of the videos you know
566
00:30:14,884 --> 00:30:19,584
that we looked at together dual clutch
direct sequential gearboxes which
567
00:30:19,739 --> 00:30:22,860
We all go, well, Volkswagen invented
that with the GTI in the 2000s.
568
00:30:22,879 --> 00:30:25,889
Well, Audi worked on that
30 years before that point.
569
00:30:25,899 --> 00:30:29,829
So a lot of experimentation, a
lot of development happening.
570
00:30:29,859 --> 00:30:32,090
And every year they kept upping the ante.
571
00:30:32,109 --> 00:30:36,129
So as soon as Audi shortened the car
and Balestra raised his hands and
572
00:30:36,129 --> 00:30:37,799
said, you all do whatever you want.
573
00:30:37,989 --> 00:30:40,269
I don't really care because sales are up.
574
00:30:40,289 --> 00:30:42,369
He's making money on the back end somehow.
575
00:30:42,369 --> 00:30:46,559
And well, the sport was generating
so much money at that point.
576
00:30:46,579 --> 00:30:49,829
It was when you said he was more, I'd
not thought of him as a businessman
577
00:30:49,869 --> 00:30:53,699
before, but when you said that I had
a sort of like, duh moment with it,
578
00:30:53,729 --> 00:30:57,779
because the reason that everyone was
ignoring the obvious accident waiting
579
00:30:57,779 --> 00:31:02,289
to happen was that everyone was getting
rich off it because, you know, you
580
00:31:02,299 --> 00:31:03,929
weren't living in Europe at the time.
581
00:31:04,074 --> 00:31:07,435
Well, we were watching it in the States,
but it was, there was a real buzz.
582
00:31:07,445 --> 00:31:14,224
I mean, the BBC sponsored an Audi
Quattro in the 1984 Lombard IRC rally.
583
00:31:14,224 --> 00:31:17,655
They actually sponsored a car
themselves so that they could have
584
00:31:17,655 --> 00:31:20,349
proper camera access and all of that.
585
00:31:20,350 --> 00:31:23,659
The Lancias though, you talked
a bit there about the Audis.
586
00:31:23,729 --> 00:31:25,739
Talk about the Lancias though,
because we talked about how
587
00:31:25,739 --> 00:31:28,189
the Stratos is the 70s thing.
588
00:31:28,259 --> 00:31:28,559
Yeah.
589
00:31:28,579 --> 00:31:32,789
The 037 or the Lancia Rally as
it seemed to be known in period.
590
00:31:32,989 --> 00:31:37,269
Yes, it was based on what we in Europe
called the Monte Carlo and what I think in
591
00:31:37,269 --> 00:31:40,139
the States was called the Lancia Scorpion.
592
00:31:40,199 --> 00:31:40,609
Correct.
593
00:31:40,869 --> 00:31:42,549
But it wasn't really, was it?
594
00:31:42,549 --> 00:31:45,819
I mean, my understanding is you really
didn't want to crash head on in it.
595
00:31:46,064 --> 00:31:49,705
Because there's basically just a
spare tire and some suspension bits
596
00:31:49,924 --> 00:31:52,254
and your feet and the pedal box,
you know, and you're just going
597
00:31:52,254 --> 00:31:53,524
to get your legs all mangled up.
598
00:31:53,554 --> 00:31:55,784
So in that sense, the things
like a formula one car.
599
00:31:55,794 --> 00:31:57,294
So that was supercharged.
600
00:31:57,324 --> 00:31:57,754
Wasn't it?
601
00:31:57,834 --> 00:31:58,774
That was Lancey's experiment supercharger.
602
00:31:58,775 --> 00:32:04,094
Was that not more developed than
the short wheelbase Quattros,
603
00:32:04,094 --> 00:32:05,764
even though it was a earlier car.
604
00:32:06,159 --> 00:32:06,489
Exactly.
605
00:32:06,489 --> 00:32:11,189
But only two wheel drive, so awesome
on the tarmac events, okay on like
606
00:32:11,239 --> 00:32:16,539
the safari and the endurance kind of
event, crappy on events like the RAC.
607
00:32:16,569 --> 00:32:16,789
Yeah.
608
00:32:16,979 --> 00:32:21,079
So Lancia, or Lancia, depending on
how you want to pronounce it, it all
609
00:32:21,079 --> 00:32:23,519
goes back to a, the race director.
610
00:32:23,689 --> 00:32:25,019
Of the motor sports program there.
611
00:32:25,019 --> 00:32:28,499
So we have to talk about Cesare
Fiorio for just a second.
612
00:32:28,539 --> 00:32:31,589
And there's a great way to
summarize this for anybody that
613
00:32:31,599 --> 00:32:33,599
wants to dive off the deep end.
614
00:32:33,609 --> 00:32:36,709
Go watch last year's movie, Race to Glory.
615
00:32:36,709 --> 00:32:41,449
And it's about the sort of
dogfight between Audi and Lancia.
616
00:32:41,489 --> 00:32:44,629
And some of it is a dramatization,
but it's a really interesting
617
00:32:44,629 --> 00:32:46,129
way to engage with Group B.
618
00:32:46,159 --> 00:32:50,139
But again, going back to the Stratos,
to your point, The Stratos was the
619
00:32:50,139 --> 00:32:55,540
beginning of, like, the prototype cars,
but going even further back, Lancia had
620
00:32:55,580 --> 00:33:00,699
its racing heritage buried in Rally,
going back to the Fulvia and other
621
00:33:00,699 --> 00:33:03,110
cars, and they just continued to evolve.
622
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:07,959
When you're the incumbent, sometimes
the rules are bent in your favor,
623
00:33:08,029 --> 00:33:12,030
but then when you have somebody
like Fiorio at the helm, who says,
624
00:33:12,314 --> 00:33:16,274
If you can't be as strong as your
competitors, you must be more clever.
625
00:33:16,344 --> 00:33:20,544
And he was known for doing all sorts
of shenanigans, but the Oh, 37, even
626
00:33:20,544 --> 00:33:23,904
though it looked, it was reminiscent
to the beta Monte Carlo or the
627
00:33:23,904 --> 00:33:27,804
Scorpion in its shell, the reality
of the situation was as a completely
628
00:33:27,804 --> 00:33:33,485
tube frame car, the homologation
rules were written that it forced.
629
00:33:33,705 --> 00:33:37,705
Lancia to build street
versions of that car.
630
00:33:37,725 --> 00:33:41,584
And there's a really funny scene
and it's based on a true story where
631
00:33:41,684 --> 00:33:44,245
Lancia couldn't build the 200 cars.
632
00:33:44,254 --> 00:33:45,374
They played the shell game.
633
00:33:45,374 --> 00:33:49,254
And when the inspectors from the FIA came,
they had a hundred cars in one location.
634
00:33:49,254 --> 00:33:50,564
They said, well, there's
only a hundred here.
635
00:33:50,564 --> 00:33:51,214
Where's the rest of them?
636
00:33:51,215 --> 00:33:52,514
Well, Well, let's go to lunch.
637
00:33:52,524 --> 00:33:54,144
We'll do lunch, blah, blah, blah.
638
00:33:54,164 --> 00:33:55,654
And then we'll take you to
where the other cars are.
639
00:33:55,664 --> 00:33:59,254
Meanwhile, they load up those hundred
cars, move them to another facility.
640
00:33:59,404 --> 00:34:01,414
And then after lunch, drive
those guys over and they go, Oh,
641
00:34:01,444 --> 00:34:02,614
there's a hundred cars over here.
642
00:34:02,684 --> 00:34:03,794
Now we have 200.
643
00:34:03,904 --> 00:34:06,734
So again, if you can't be
stronger, be more clever.
644
00:34:06,734 --> 00:34:08,974
So these are the kinds of
shenanigans that Lance is doing
645
00:34:09,014 --> 00:34:10,844
because they want to maintain.
646
00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:16,479
Their reputation as the kings of
rally, but when it came to group B,
647
00:34:16,509 --> 00:34:21,289
the Oh, 37, unless it was a completely
tarmac rally like Corsica, which
648
00:34:21,289 --> 00:34:22,269
it was predominantly in the dry.
649
00:34:22,279 --> 00:34:26,829
And that's where the 37 failed was in
the rain at the RAC Lombard rallies.
650
00:34:26,829 --> 00:34:30,049
Is it just it couldn't do
the job of the other cars.
651
00:34:30,219 --> 00:34:32,139
They carried it as long as they could.
652
00:34:32,339 --> 00:34:35,239
And once you sort of scrambling
going, what do we do?
653
00:34:35,484 --> 00:34:36,324
What do we do?
654
00:34:36,334 --> 00:34:38,134
We are now the also rams.
655
00:34:38,164 --> 00:34:39,094
They have great drivers.
656
00:34:39,094 --> 00:34:41,994
They got Marco and I lane Toyvan and
all these folks driving for them.
657
00:34:41,994 --> 00:34:44,564
And it's like, we can't make this work.
658
00:34:44,664 --> 00:34:47,394
The Oh 37 wasn't a failure.
659
00:34:47,654 --> 00:34:50,914
It was just past its
prime because the beta.
660
00:34:51,149 --> 00:34:54,329
Monte Carlo that it was based
on was a car from the 70s.
661
00:34:54,329 --> 00:34:56,009
It was old technology.
662
00:34:56,049 --> 00:34:56,959
So what did they do?
663
00:34:57,029 --> 00:34:57,899
They said, you know what?
664
00:34:58,059 --> 00:35:03,049
Jujaro built us a really cool car,
the Delta, which was also a 70s car.
665
00:35:03,049 --> 00:35:04,330
I want to point that out.
666
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,949
By that point, by 1984, 1985, we
had moved away from homologation
667
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,290
into the Group B evolution period.
668
00:35:12,310 --> 00:35:17,605
And now, and I think it was In Lancia's
favor that they changed the rules, they
669
00:35:17,605 --> 00:35:22,335
developed the Lancia Delta S4, which,
to your point, the only thing that
670
00:35:22,345 --> 00:35:27,415
reminds you of a Delta is the backside
of it, that it's still a hatchback.
671
00:35:27,555 --> 00:35:28,885
And it was a little con, right?
672
00:35:28,945 --> 00:35:33,675
I remember I spent Christmas, when I was
first getting into reading car magazines,
673
00:35:33,765 --> 00:35:38,985
and I spent a Christmas in Germany,
Christmas 1985, and my uncle, very kindly,
674
00:35:38,985 --> 00:35:40,785
had bought me all these car magazines.
675
00:35:40,945 --> 00:35:44,935
For me to read, because you knew I had
an interest in cars and in a couple
676
00:35:44,935 --> 00:35:50,975
of these were pictures of the launch
of the Delta S4 and the pictures
677
00:35:51,025 --> 00:35:55,205
of it, it looks like a normal Delta
with like big wheels at the back.
678
00:35:55,404 --> 00:36:00,645
It looks nothing like what the actual
Delta S4 looked like when it rocked up
679
00:36:00,645 --> 00:36:04,625
on the street, because what the actual
Delta S4 looks like is nothing like.
680
00:36:05,095 --> 00:36:09,765
What the five door hatchback, the
Giugiaro ped, you know, no element,
681
00:36:09,985 --> 00:36:11,404
the windshield might've been the same.
682
00:36:11,404 --> 00:36:12,025
That was about it.
683
00:36:12,055 --> 00:36:18,105
You know, Lancia comes to the table
with the S4, but that wasn't until 1985.
684
00:36:18,145 --> 00:36:22,705
And what's interesting about that is
that's when the horsepower wars really
685
00:36:22,705 --> 00:36:27,005
started to ramp up because the S4
came to the table and Lancia said, we
686
00:36:27,005 --> 00:36:29,055
just broke the 500 horsepower mark.
687
00:36:29,285 --> 00:36:30,675
And they're like, well,
how did you do that?
688
00:36:30,795 --> 00:36:34,555
And to your point from earlier, they
used the supercharging technology and
689
00:36:34,555 --> 00:36:36,575
then partnered with the turbocharger.
690
00:36:36,735 --> 00:36:40,075
So they twin charged the
engine to reduce turbo lag.
691
00:36:40,125 --> 00:36:44,195
And now they have linear power, almost
unlimited power compared to everybody
692
00:36:44,195 --> 00:36:49,045
else, a huge rev range in a four
cylinder package in an extremely light
693
00:36:49,075 --> 00:36:51,925
car, mid engine, all wheel drive.
694
00:36:52,045 --> 00:36:53,715
And they're just kicking everybody's butt.
695
00:36:53,940 --> 00:36:55,890
But that's at the tail end of Group B.
696
00:36:56,090 --> 00:37:00,310
So now you have to remember,
it's a quid pro quo situation.
697
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,070
So Audi says, well, we
got the sport quattro.
698
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,089
It only makes 350 and we're
limited at 135 miles an hour.
699
00:37:07,110 --> 00:37:09,770
And the Delta is just 200 more horsepower.
700
00:37:09,770 --> 00:37:10,529
So what are we going to do?
701
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:12,429
Here comes the Evo S1.
702
00:37:12,430 --> 00:37:15,690
And there's another iteration beyond
that when we go beyond Group B.
703
00:37:15,750 --> 00:37:17,170
So Audi reacts.
704
00:37:17,530 --> 00:37:19,720
It takes the sport quattro
and puts it on steroids.
705
00:37:19,940 --> 00:37:24,100
And then Peugeot, though they had
already introduced the 205 T16 at
706
00:37:24,100 --> 00:37:26,600
that point, and everybody went, whoa.
707
00:37:27,089 --> 00:37:32,459
Lancia I think copied the 205 T16 because
who in their right mind puts a motor in
708
00:37:32,459 --> 00:37:34,239
the middle of a three door hatchback?
709
00:37:34,420 --> 00:37:35,340
Absolutely.
710
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:40,280
I felt like when the Delta S4 came
along, the permission for the Delta
711
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:46,729
S4 had come from the Peugeot 205
T16, and I felt like the T16 had been
712
00:37:46,729 --> 00:37:50,540
allowed to have a longer wheelbase
and have this engine in the backseat,
713
00:37:50,550 --> 00:37:52,960
which no real Peugeot 205 ever had.
714
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,995
It was allowed to have that partly because
Peugeot Sport and Ballest were based
715
00:37:57,995 --> 00:38:00,305
about 50 miles apart in Paris there.
716
00:38:00,545 --> 00:38:05,255
Well, not only that, Jean Todd, who went
to lead Peugeot Motorsport, which brought
717
00:38:05,255 --> 00:38:07,795
Peugeot back from the brink of extinction.
718
00:38:07,974 --> 00:38:12,315
Everybody's French, we all get
along, so Countrymen alike, we need
719
00:38:12,315 --> 00:38:14,865
to support each other, patriotism,
all these kinds of things.
720
00:38:14,875 --> 00:38:18,865
So you don't think Ballester is going to
turn a blind eye to Peugeot developing
721
00:38:18,865 --> 00:38:20,885
a car that makes absolutely no sense.
722
00:38:20,935 --> 00:38:23,935
And if it had the original wheelbase,
it would have been too twitchy.
723
00:38:23,985 --> 00:38:24,164
Yes.
724
00:38:24,164 --> 00:38:28,014
I mean, again, listening to these
rally reports, the Metro 6R4, Tony
725
00:38:28,015 --> 00:38:31,605
Pond on that first RAC rally on the
straights, he couldn't keep it straight.
726
00:38:31,695 --> 00:38:33,915
It was so twitchy because
the wheelbase is so short.
727
00:38:34,125 --> 00:38:34,575
Same thing.
728
00:38:34,695 --> 00:38:37,265
What Austin Rover, MG Metro on the planet.
729
00:38:37,460 --> 00:38:39,930
came with a six cylinder
that made 400 horsepower.
730
00:38:39,930 --> 00:38:40,770
Zero.
731
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:46,509
Before we talk about the Metro 6R4,
I want to talk about this Astra 4S.
732
00:38:46,510 --> 00:38:47,680
Had you heard of that?
733
00:38:49,075 --> 00:38:52,955
I had not heard of that before
doing research for this presentation
734
00:38:53,005 --> 00:38:56,525
and I wonder if Voxel were feeling
like, you know, as if they had
735
00:38:56,525 --> 00:38:59,195
to do something because Austin
Rover and everybody else was.
736
00:38:59,235 --> 00:39:03,745
But my understanding is that this was
a four wheel drive Astra, but it used
737
00:39:03,835 --> 00:39:08,680
a Zaxpeed Turbo Formula One engine.
738
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:09,980
Like the Capri had.
739
00:39:10,020 --> 00:39:13,620
Oh, like the Capri 1700 Zaxpeed.
740
00:39:13,830 --> 00:39:16,900
Oh, one of my all time
favorite cars, that car.
741
00:39:16,900 --> 00:39:19,210
I love a Ford Capri like nothing else.
742
00:39:19,260 --> 00:39:21,940
Those Zaxpeed ones are just so awesome.
743
00:39:22,130 --> 00:39:22,630
Yeah.
744
00:39:22,750 --> 00:39:23,230
Wow.
745
00:39:23,550 --> 00:39:25,990
So let's talk about the
6R4 then for a little bit.
746
00:39:26,100 --> 00:39:30,900
What an awe inspiring car, but a
disappointment at the same time.
747
00:39:30,900 --> 00:39:33,620
Like, I could never get
on board with the 6R4.
748
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,300
I have more appreciation for it
today with the eyes of a veteran
749
00:39:38,300 --> 00:39:40,770
WRC fan than I did in period.
750
00:39:40,770 --> 00:39:42,480
In period, I was like, what a joke.
751
00:39:42,665 --> 00:39:44,085
What a weird car.
752
00:39:44,185 --> 00:39:47,875
This is never going to work,
especially when you compared it to
753
00:39:47,875 --> 00:39:52,175
the Peugeot, or to the Lancia, and
even the Audi, which at that time
754
00:39:52,175 --> 00:39:54,255
was sort of falling behind the curve.
755
00:39:54,385 --> 00:39:58,515
But the sound of the 6R4 is one
of those things that, at first,
756
00:39:58,525 --> 00:40:00,605
you're like, is that the 939?
757
00:40:00,735 --> 00:40:04,265
Which most folks don't know is the
rally edition of the 911, which
758
00:40:04,275 --> 00:40:08,145
then later they developed into the
959 and all those kinds of things.
759
00:40:08,175 --> 00:40:10,245
And so, no, it's not a 911.
760
00:40:10,675 --> 00:40:12,200
That's Austin Rover.
761
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,190
Like, wait, what?
762
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,720
Yeah, 400 naturally aspirated
horsepower in a car.
763
00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:20,720
That's the size of a
Fiat 500 or Fiat Panda.
764
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:21,080
Really?
765
00:40:21,230 --> 00:40:24,500
I mean, it's absolutely microscopic
compared to the other cars.
766
00:40:24,500 --> 00:40:26,750
And to your point, the
early six R four was short.
767
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:32,270
If you listen to Pond and Wilson, they
talk about how they had to make the car
768
00:40:32,270 --> 00:40:36,650
longer and slightly wider to make it less
twitchy and make it more maneuverable.
769
00:40:36,770 --> 00:40:40,010
But again, all of this comes
as part of this space race.
770
00:40:40,245 --> 00:40:43,675
Everybody's trying to catch up
with Pujo until Lancia came on the
771
00:40:43,675 --> 00:40:48,275
scene and suddenly now the bar was,
well you only have 400 horsepower?
772
00:40:48,525 --> 00:40:49,805
We've got 520.
773
00:40:49,885 --> 00:40:53,795
I had the same sense as you, Eric,
that I was disappointed in Pyrrhage,
774
00:40:53,795 --> 00:40:57,934
and for me it was like yet another,
like, Austin Rover, wah wah.
775
00:40:58,085 --> 00:40:58,385
Right?
776
00:40:58,405 --> 00:41:02,335
It was like yet another
Red Robbo on strike.
777
00:41:02,435 --> 00:41:07,525
It was just like wet cardboard, just
like England, like, get out of my face.
778
00:41:07,805 --> 00:41:08,195
Right.
779
00:41:08,325 --> 00:41:09,885
Like, that's how I felt about it.
780
00:41:09,885 --> 00:41:13,345
And I, so I remember reading the
article about the launch and being
781
00:41:13,345 --> 00:41:15,165
like, it's not fucking turbocharged.
782
00:41:15,165 --> 00:41:16,684
Why are we even turning up?
783
00:41:16,755 --> 00:41:22,505
Yeah, whereas my thought now is if it
could put the power down better watching
784
00:41:22,515 --> 00:41:29,705
these RAC rallies, it's clear that Pond
is expecting Arlen and Teuvenin to crash.
785
00:41:29,745 --> 00:41:30,015
Yes.
786
00:41:30,025 --> 00:41:30,725
And they do.
787
00:41:30,865 --> 00:41:32,885
It just so happens they
get back on the road.
788
00:41:32,900 --> 00:41:37,040
You know, by freakness, they get back
on the road, you know, literally it.
789
00:41:37,050 --> 00:41:41,640
So at the time I was all about Lancia,
but looking back now, I'm like Austin
790
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,930
Rover had a super pragmatic approach and
certainly the events that, you know, the
791
00:41:45,930 --> 00:41:47,890
RAC rally that I watched, they, they were.
792
00:41:48,130 --> 00:41:53,290
Competitive ish and didn't seem to feel
the need to put it off the road or roll
793
00:41:53,290 --> 00:41:57,690
it or all of this other tomfoolery that
those awesome fins that I so loved in
794
00:41:57,690 --> 00:42:03,560
period did and I think when we look back
on it now with more education about the
795
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,570
mechanics of these cars and things like
that what you can come to respect about
796
00:42:07,570 --> 00:42:13,460
a non turbo six cylinder metro 6r4 making
400 horsepower compared to everybody
797
00:42:13,460 --> 00:42:15,800
else is that the torque was immediate.
798
00:42:16,175 --> 00:42:20,325
They didn't have to wait and so when you
look at some of those time trials and
799
00:42:20,325 --> 00:42:24,955
special stages from, let's say, Lombard
and other parts of the and other parts
800
00:42:24,955 --> 00:42:30,895
of the, you realize the Metro was quicker
out of the corners, even though it didn't
801
00:42:30,895 --> 00:42:32,575
have the top end that everybody else had.
802
00:42:32,575 --> 00:42:34,489
So, yes, the could go into a situation.
803
00:42:34,490 --> 00:42:38,320
Speed trap at 100 miles an hour and the
Audi was right behind it at 90 and the
804
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,770
metro would come trundling along at 88.
805
00:42:40,810 --> 00:42:44,120
But the difference was as Hanu
Mikola would say, you know, the
806
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:45,820
corners came up a lot faster.
807
00:42:45,820 --> 00:42:47,040
So you had to break harder.
808
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,010
You had to drop so much more speed.
809
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:53,470
And when you drop that kind of speed in a
corner, now you're outside of the optimal
810
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:58,060
torque band and rev range and boost
parameters that the motor is looking for.
811
00:42:58,080 --> 00:42:59,250
And they're absolute.
812
00:42:59,525 --> 00:43:02,035
Dogs versus the metro was small.
813
00:43:02,045 --> 00:43:02,945
It was agile.
814
00:43:03,115 --> 00:43:06,805
They could toss it in the corner and
just stand on it and wring its neck,
815
00:43:06,855 --> 00:43:08,805
but they had six cylinder torque.
816
00:43:08,905 --> 00:43:11,795
And that was what made
that car extremely special.
817
00:43:11,995 --> 00:43:15,565
So I feel like the Peugeot had
to do an extended wheelbase.
818
00:43:15,575 --> 00:43:19,225
And if you look at later iterations,
Of the T 16, you know, the Pikes
819
00:43:19,225 --> 00:43:20,995
Peak car that Vartanen uses.
820
00:43:20,995 --> 00:43:26,145
That's a 405 that was a four
door sedan, bigger class of car.
821
00:43:26,145 --> 00:43:29,645
And, and it allowed them to do that
longer wheelbase to balance it a bit more.
822
00:43:29,745 --> 00:43:33,345
And this is exactly the right opportunity
then to be like, well, what the F
823
00:43:33,345 --> 00:43:37,135
happened to Ford, given they were the
dominant force all the way through.
824
00:43:37,135 --> 00:43:41,705
And it goes right back to the place
that we started with this two stages
825
00:43:41,705 --> 00:43:45,225
of homologation, because they had a
car, I guess they were caught wrong
826
00:43:45,225 --> 00:43:46,895
footed because of the whole like.
827
00:43:47,010 --> 00:43:53,190
Silhouette issue that in 1980, the old
escort was replaced by a new escort.
828
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,570
The escort mark three, that was
a front wheel drive hatchback.
829
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:57,930
Well, that was shit for rally.
830
00:43:57,980 --> 00:43:59,130
It was shit in general.
831
00:43:59,130 --> 00:43:59,750
I mean, come on.
832
00:43:59,810 --> 00:44:00,680
No, no, it wasn't.
833
00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:02,420
It was actually a really good car.
834
00:44:02,420 --> 00:44:04,880
It was the beginning of Ford.
835
00:44:04,910 --> 00:44:07,420
The ones we got in America were terrible.
836
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,770
Oh, you did get that
body style in America.
837
00:44:09,790 --> 00:44:10,150
Didn't you?
838
00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:10,620
I'm sorry.
839
00:44:10,670 --> 00:44:15,310
The European ones, they were light on
their feet and faster than the The first
840
00:44:15,310 --> 00:44:19,580
generation Astra was better than that
first generation Escort, but the rest of
841
00:44:19,580 --> 00:44:22,830
the time through the eighties, the Escorts
were okay, but front wheel drive, right?
842
00:44:22,830 --> 00:44:23,660
No good for rallying.
843
00:44:23,660 --> 00:44:27,570
So Ford developed this
thing called the RS 1700 T.
844
00:44:27,580 --> 00:44:29,030
There were about three of them built.
845
00:44:29,060 --> 00:44:32,640
And by the time Audi were there with
the Quattro, I think Ford thought
846
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,540
this thing's just not fast enough
for us to be competitive with.
847
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,460
So they were like, right back
to the drawing board and created
848
00:44:39,490 --> 00:44:42,680
this thing, the RS 200, the.
849
00:44:42,870 --> 00:44:47,970
Right at the end of group B, so
it launches and in those early
850
00:44:47,970 --> 00:44:52,530
warmup events is involved in one
of the accidents that ends group B.
851
00:44:52,590 --> 00:44:55,440
I always looked at the RS 200
as a day late and a dollar
852
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,360
short . To summarize that thought.
853
00:44:57,450 --> 00:44:59,010
No, no, not a dollar short.
854
00:44:59,070 --> 00:45:01,350
I think it would've been,
I think it was a day late.
855
00:45:01,350 --> 00:45:05,100
I think it, it could have been developed
into a, I mean, fundamentally, who do you
856
00:45:05,100 --> 00:45:07,650
trust to organize winning rallies more?
857
00:45:07,650 --> 00:45:09,420
Ford or Lancia, I mean.
858
00:45:09,835 --> 00:45:10,585
Ford, right?
859
00:45:10,675 --> 00:45:13,735
If I look at the stats,
I'd lean on Lancia.
860
00:45:13,795 --> 00:45:15,835
Had the accidents not happened?
861
00:45:15,895 --> 00:45:16,285
Yes.
862
00:45:16,285 --> 00:45:23,365
The RS 200 would've been destroying,
and I say this as a committed RL fan,
863
00:45:23,515 --> 00:45:25,345
he would not have been competitive.
864
00:45:25,405 --> 00:45:27,925
'cause I think the Fords
would've been faster.
865
00:45:27,925 --> 00:45:31,105
I think the RS 200 was right at
the bottom of its development care.
866
00:45:31,105 --> 00:45:31,525
True.
867
00:45:31,585 --> 00:45:35,785
But the RS 200 took us back 10 years,
if you think about it, because.
868
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,410
The reason I looked at it as a day
late and a dollar short, not because
869
00:45:39,410 --> 00:45:44,140
Ford didn't spend an exorbitant
amount of money developing the RS200.
870
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:47,170
When you really stood back and
looked at it, that's a really
871
00:45:47,170 --> 00:45:49,260
interesting 037 with all wheel drive.
872
00:45:49,330 --> 00:45:52,380
It's basically the same
principle, the same idea.
873
00:45:52,710 --> 00:45:57,320
The drivers like Stig and Marco Alain
and other people that got behind the
874
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,760
wheel of an RS200 were the same guys
that drove 037s and cars like that.
875
00:46:01,770 --> 00:46:05,040
So did they design that car
for them or did they design it?
876
00:46:05,325 --> 00:46:09,105
To compete, there wasn't a clear
motivation for the RS 200 other
877
00:46:09,105 --> 00:46:10,825
than Ford wanted to come in and win.
878
00:46:10,945 --> 00:46:15,255
And Ford didn't become dominant in
WRC until now with M Sport and all
879
00:46:15,255 --> 00:46:18,055
those other things with the Puma and
the Fiesta and all those cars that
880
00:46:18,055 --> 00:46:19,415
we can talk about it in a later date.
881
00:46:19,515 --> 00:46:22,975
To me, the RS 200 was the
beginning of something good.
882
00:46:23,230 --> 00:46:27,820
But it's a day late and a dollar short
because of how Group B ended prematurely.
883
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:29,180
And we'll, we'll get into that.
884
00:46:29,240 --> 00:46:31,830
So Ford like miscoordinated, right?
885
00:46:31,830 --> 00:46:33,620
The timing was just unfortunate for them.
886
00:46:33,780 --> 00:46:36,390
They had one car that was
uncompetitive, developed another one
887
00:46:36,390 --> 00:46:37,700
that would have been competitive.
888
00:46:37,790 --> 00:46:41,010
Classic Ford, I think, but you know,
it just arrived a bit too late.
889
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:45,120
I think with a couple more seasons,
had they been going the way they'd
890
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:49,430
been going, we'd be also not just
talking about the RS200, we'd be
891
00:46:49,430 --> 00:46:51,630
talking about the battle between Ford.
892
00:46:51,855 --> 00:46:52,665
An MG.
893
00:46:52,755 --> 00:46:53,125
Yeah.
894
00:46:53,225 --> 00:46:58,225
Before this recent research, I'd have
not felt like that was the case at all.
895
00:46:58,225 --> 00:47:02,395
But with this recent research, I
have felt like that because I just
896
00:47:02,395 --> 00:47:07,275
feel fundamentally the Austin Rover
package was going to be more reliable.
897
00:47:07,415 --> 00:47:07,555
Yeah.
898
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:14,780
than this turbocharged, supercharged
space frame driven by these crashy fins.
899
00:47:14,870 --> 00:47:16,770
That feels like Lotus.
900
00:47:16,790 --> 00:47:17,820
It feels like Lotus.
901
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:18,730
That's what it feels like.
902
00:47:18,730 --> 00:47:21,599
Yeah.
903
00:47:21,780 --> 00:47:25,140
But to talk about Lancia,
the story continues.
904
00:47:25,270 --> 00:47:31,840
The Delta lives on a car as it hit
its zenith in the nineties in Group
905
00:47:31,990 --> 00:47:39,120
A with that Delta HF Integrale, which
is Take the S4 motor and detune it and
906
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,780
put it at the front of the car with a
synchro style all wheel drive system
907
00:47:43,780 --> 00:47:47,080
similar to a rally golf and some of
the other products that were out there.
908
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:52,570
Then you had a car that won from 87
to 93 and Lancia cemented itself.
909
00:47:52,710 --> 00:47:55,070
Because a new class was
born around that car.
910
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:56,750
But it was tiddlywinks, Eric.
911
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:57,310
It was.
912
00:47:57,580 --> 00:47:57,980
It was tiddlywinks.
913
00:47:57,980 --> 00:48:02,540
And I have respect for Mickey Biazion,
who was the winning driver of that period.
914
00:48:02,660 --> 00:48:07,450
You've told a nice story about how
it was, but no, it wasn't right.
915
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,250
This was the Giugiaro car
from the early seventies.
916
00:48:10,250 --> 00:48:10,810
Exactly.
917
00:48:11,130 --> 00:48:15,510
Hatchback with the slab side body
with the transverse inline four
918
00:48:15,510 --> 00:48:19,170
cylinder engine, making a feeble
hundred horsepower with a turbo on it.
919
00:48:19,180 --> 00:48:22,114
It was a bloody yawn in comparison
to the way that it had to be.
920
00:48:22,115 --> 00:48:22,385
Bit.
921
00:48:22,445 --> 00:48:24,065
The music was gone.
922
00:48:24,125 --> 00:48:24,575
Oh yeah.
923
00:48:24,575 --> 00:48:25,385
A hundred percent.
924
00:48:25,445 --> 00:48:27,035
But I so loved it in period.
925
00:48:27,485 --> 00:48:27,995
Oh, absolutely.
926
00:48:27,995 --> 00:48:30,035
I love the Lanius Imper.
927
00:48:30,035 --> 00:48:34,455
And you can't understate that
Martini livery looked good.
928
00:48:34,635 --> 00:48:38,865
Oh, that martini livery really looked
good, but they all looked good.
929
00:48:38,865 --> 00:48:39,885
I mean, let's be real.
930
00:48:39,885 --> 00:48:41,205
I mean, they're iconic.
931
00:48:41,265 --> 00:48:42,375
Even to this day.
932
00:48:42,375 --> 00:48:42,880
I mean, if I could.
933
00:48:43,270 --> 00:48:46,840
paint my cars or my house or
myself in, you know, an Audi sport
934
00:48:46,860 --> 00:48:50,560
livery or the Peugeot livery or
the Martini of old Rothmans cars.
935
00:48:50,710 --> 00:48:51,640
They're all gorgeous.
936
00:48:51,730 --> 00:48:54,210
Never to be done again in some respects.
937
00:48:54,210 --> 00:48:56,190
I mean, we pay tribute to those cars.
938
00:48:56,220 --> 00:48:59,540
There's all sorts of things like that that
exist today, but it's just not the same.
939
00:48:59,540 --> 00:49:00,879
Citroën.
940
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:01,989
They too are gorgeous.
941
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:03,640
We're caught with their pants down.
942
00:49:03,740 --> 00:49:08,970
The Visa GTI was meant to be
what Group B was meant to be.
943
00:49:08,980 --> 00:49:12,710
It was meant to be budget rallying,
but then Audi and everyone kind
944
00:49:12,710 --> 00:49:14,150
of got ahead of themselves.
945
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:19,330
And so Citroen too were caught on
the hot and then they did that BX.
946
00:49:19,380 --> 00:49:20,330
Before TC.
947
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:21,020
Right at the end.
948
00:49:21,020 --> 00:49:23,860
And we were talking about this
sort of before we came on air.
949
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,502
I was talking with my producer
before we came on air.
950
00:49:26,502 --> 00:49:26,864
Yeah.
951
00:49:27,135 --> 00:49:31,325
Yeah, the 4TC was their answer
to Group B, but again, another
952
00:49:31,325 --> 00:49:33,755
car that showed up in 1985.
953
00:49:33,755 --> 00:49:36,985
It took them two years to figure out
what they were going to build, and then
954
00:49:36,985 --> 00:49:39,965
by 85 into 86, Group B was disbanded.
955
00:49:40,195 --> 00:49:42,045
Again, a day late and
a dollar short, right?
956
00:49:42,175 --> 00:49:46,025
I'll tell you, it wasn't a day late
or a dollar short, and I was watching
957
00:49:46,025 --> 00:49:49,585
my rally and thinking, Oh, cool cars.
958
00:49:49,765 --> 00:49:51,675
The Toyota Celicas.
959
00:49:51,950 --> 00:49:55,670
Celica Sika with the two JayZ.
960
00:49:55,940 --> 00:49:59,480
These would've been early
examples of Turbocharging two
961
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,700
Jay-Z's, and they're big and long.
962
00:50:01,700 --> 00:50:03,770
This is full on Dukes of Hazard stuff.
963
00:50:03,860 --> 00:50:04,190
Oh yeah.
964
00:50:04,250 --> 00:50:04,940
And awesome.
965
00:50:05,150 --> 00:50:07,820
And the Nissans were the
same, but not Turbocharged.
966
00:50:07,820 --> 00:50:11,780
They were Nissan two forties that were
similar and, and not Turbocharged.
967
00:50:11,900 --> 00:50:15,950
Maybe we look on it with a bit of
nostalgia, rose colored glasses.
968
00:50:15,950 --> 00:50:18,980
But I tell you what, you made
the comment earlier about.
969
00:50:19,190 --> 00:50:23,020
The virtual world and how it's
paid homage to these cars.
970
00:50:23,300 --> 00:50:24,890
That's exactly what I
was going to say, right?
971
00:50:24,940 --> 00:50:29,350
Because when I'd been knocking around
the idea of revisiting Group B for
972
00:50:29,350 --> 00:50:33,140
ages, because I noticed how it had come
along in the games, and I noticed the
973
00:50:33,140 --> 00:50:36,320
way that my gamer mates love the cars.
974
00:50:36,410 --> 00:50:41,550
I'm not a gamer myself, but I was
sufficiently aware of the gaming community
975
00:50:41,670 --> 00:50:47,480
to see how the cars of Group B had
continually made themselves relevant.
976
00:50:47,740 --> 00:50:52,390
Group B was the motorsport
that I imprinted on as a kid.
977
00:50:52,460 --> 00:50:55,100
I'm less than 10 years
your junior, let's say.
978
00:50:55,250 --> 00:50:58,360
So I had a different way
of absorbing the data.
979
00:50:58,610 --> 00:51:00,960
You were there at some of those events.
980
00:51:01,010 --> 00:51:04,830
I was watching them here through very
expensive cable feeds and whatnot.
981
00:51:04,860 --> 00:51:06,400
But I'm watching them happen.
982
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:08,050
I'm watching the videos later.
983
00:51:08,050 --> 00:51:11,220
My dad would buy them from the
UK and we'd watch the replays.
984
00:51:11,230 --> 00:51:13,790
And I still have them on
the shelves to this day.
985
00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:16,020
I wanted to be a rally driver.
986
00:51:16,210 --> 00:51:17,360
Formula one was amazing.
987
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,950
And I, and I love Senna and we did
that whole tribute episode to him,
988
00:51:20,950 --> 00:51:22,879
but I wanted to be Hanu Mikola.
989
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,130
I wanted to ride shotgun
with Michel Mouton.
990
00:51:25,450 --> 00:51:28,860
I wanted to meet Walter Rural,
Stig Blumfuss, all these guys,
991
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:30,350
like they were incredible.
992
00:51:30,350 --> 00:51:34,020
Now, granted I'm, I'm listing all of
the works teams, drivers for Audi,
993
00:51:34,020 --> 00:51:36,450
but Marco Alain, all the same, right?
994
00:51:36,725 --> 00:51:42,445
Today, and ever since then, I started
playing The Sims, the original Dirt
995
00:51:42,455 --> 00:51:47,385
series by Codemasters, the Network Q
Rally series that existed on the PC,
996
00:51:47,385 --> 00:51:51,175
and now it's all WRC, this and that,
and Electronic Arts has bought them all.
997
00:51:51,255 --> 00:51:55,575
What's interesting is, the really
hardcore Sims, the stuff that's on
998
00:51:55,605 --> 00:51:59,405
par with the Assetto Corsas and the
iRacings of the world, They've done a
999
00:51:59,415 --> 00:52:04,445
very good job of studying those cars,
analyzing those cars, testing those
1000
00:52:04,445 --> 00:52:06,335
cars, doing the 3d renderings, all those.
1001
00:52:06,395 --> 00:52:11,415
And when I get behind the wheel on a
sophisticated SIM of a rally car, yes,
1002
00:52:11,415 --> 00:52:16,105
I'm, I'm sort of living through the
digital experience, having driven some
1003
00:52:16,105 --> 00:52:20,455
of these homologation versions, the R5
turbo two owning a UR quattro lunch at
1004
00:52:20,455 --> 00:52:24,275
Delta, you know, some of these other
cars I get behind the digital wheel.
1005
00:52:24,450 --> 00:52:25,730
And it translates to me.
1006
00:52:25,780 --> 00:52:29,310
I have a feeling of what it was
like and I watched the videos
1007
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:33,910
and I'm like the car reacts the
way it does in the file footage.
1008
00:52:34,030 --> 00:52:35,860
They've done a very good job of that.
1009
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:41,090
And so my only analysis of the actual
group B cars and their performance.
1010
00:52:41,330 --> 00:52:42,860
Is through the digital world.
1011
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:47,490
What is interesting is they're
so vastly different handling
1012
00:52:47,490 --> 00:52:49,260
characteristics, acceleration.
1013
00:52:49,330 --> 00:52:54,930
The Audi is like a missile when it
comes to off the line and at high
1014
00:52:54,940 --> 00:52:57,629
speed, because it can turn 10, 000 RPM.
1015
00:52:57,630 --> 00:53:01,910
It's just unbelievably good at the
top end, but you get it into a corner
1016
00:53:01,910 --> 00:53:06,680
and you're like, Oh God, it's just
plowing a field and it doesn't matter
1017
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:08,810
if it's the evolution versions either.
1018
00:53:09,025 --> 00:53:11,865
But the Peugeot is quick and it's nimble.
1019
00:53:12,075 --> 00:53:16,775
But then suddenly, because it's not
designed to be a mid engine car, its
1020
00:53:16,795 --> 00:53:18,765
polar moment is completely wrong.
1021
00:53:18,855 --> 00:53:21,455
And when you think it's going
to lift throttle oversteer,
1022
00:53:21,665 --> 00:53:23,435
it just completely snaps.
1023
00:53:23,505 --> 00:53:24,745
And it's all over the place.
1024
00:53:24,765 --> 00:53:25,875
And then you can't control it.
1025
00:53:25,875 --> 00:53:26,975
And it's tank slapping.
1026
00:53:27,045 --> 00:53:27,845
And it's a mess.
1027
00:53:27,875 --> 00:53:30,765
And when you watch the videos,
it does the exact same thing.
1028
00:53:30,765 --> 00:53:32,255
You're like, why did he spin there?
1029
00:53:32,455 --> 00:53:33,685
Because the cars are twitchy.
1030
00:53:33,845 --> 00:53:35,315
The Metro 6R4 the same.
1031
00:53:35,445 --> 00:53:36,885
The Delta S4.
1032
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:41,760
They did a lot of learning and studying
the mistakes of everybody else.
1033
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:46,140
It's very smooth, but it has this,
if you scruff it a little too
1034
00:53:46,140 --> 00:53:48,080
hard, it's going to bite you back.
1035
00:53:48,090 --> 00:53:48,990
You know, those kinds of things.
1036
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:52,040
I recommend people, if you want
to get a first hand experience,
1037
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:57,120
go try the latest version of WRC,
which is WRC 11 by Electronic Arts,
1038
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,100
where they bought Codemasters and
they're one big happy family now.
1039
00:54:00,180 --> 00:54:02,030
You get a sense of these cars.
1040
00:54:02,230 --> 00:54:03,420
It's unlike anything else.
1041
00:54:03,825 --> 00:54:08,445
I prefer the Group A cars, they're
easier to drive, they're a lot more fun.
1042
00:54:08,625 --> 00:54:13,625
Your stage times are actually
quicker with half the horsepower.
1043
00:54:13,815 --> 00:54:18,285
Well, that's why I wonder if that Metro
mightn't have been, uh, a bit of a
1044
00:54:18,285 --> 00:54:20,295
world beater, had the Binscope to do it.
1045
00:54:20,355 --> 00:54:23,785
So, I'll put you on the spot now, Eric,
which was the best car of the era?
1046
00:54:23,905 --> 00:54:25,845
I don't mind going first
whilst you're thinking.
1047
00:54:26,015 --> 00:54:29,985
I think, probably, based upon
what we've said here, Delta S4.
1048
00:54:30,215 --> 00:54:36,105
A lot of people would agree with you that
it is the halo car of the Group B, period.
1049
00:54:36,245 --> 00:54:41,985
As legendary as the Audi S1 is, as
legendary as the 205 T16 is, as quirky
1050
00:54:41,985 --> 00:54:45,975
as the Renault 5 Turbo 2 is, and some
of the other cars that are in the field,
1051
00:54:47,045 --> 00:54:50,475
my heart Always sort of leans Audi.
1052
00:54:50,505 --> 00:54:51,895
I bleed Audi.
1053
00:54:52,005 --> 00:54:54,755
But if I have to pick one, the best?
1054
00:54:55,235 --> 00:55:00,765
The Lancia is on paper the best, but
I think the Peugeot, as proven with
1055
00:55:00,765 --> 00:55:04,245
the right drivers, and this is where
we get into the conversation of is it
1056
00:55:04,245 --> 00:55:10,045
the car or is it the driver, I think
the Peugeot is something to respect.
1057
00:55:10,310 --> 00:55:13,040
But I also think it was
probably the best car.
1058
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:14,910
It was the most well thought out.
1059
00:55:15,030 --> 00:55:19,090
It was constantly refined, but in
an iterative way, not in a gigantic
1060
00:55:19,100 --> 00:55:23,420
way like the Audi was, or like the
Delta S4, just outlandish coming on
1061
00:55:23,420 --> 00:55:25,000
the scene and being ostentatious.
1062
00:55:25,380 --> 00:55:29,540
The Peugeot was just there, and their
changes, like I said, were subtle.
1063
00:55:29,570 --> 00:55:34,639
Think about when they added the
aerodynamics package to the 205 T16.
1064
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:35,540
Is that all you guys are doing?
1065
00:55:35,540 --> 00:55:37,520
You're putting a spoiler
and an airfoil on the front?
1066
00:55:37,540 --> 00:55:38,390
Like, really?
1067
00:55:38,685 --> 00:55:41,365
That's all you're going to do because
if you listen to the drivers, all we
1068
00:55:41,365 --> 00:55:45,125
needed was a little bit more control
over the jumps to keep the rear end
1069
00:55:45,125 --> 00:55:48,325
down so we could continue to maintrain
traction, you know, things like that.
1070
00:55:48,325 --> 00:55:52,545
So it doesn't seem very French
because they do very big and
1071
00:55:52,565 --> 00:55:54,215
outlandish things with their cars.
1072
00:55:54,245 --> 00:55:56,715
But the Peugeot, I think, was the best.
1073
00:55:56,845 --> 00:56:00,385
If it had gotten more time, it
would have continued to evolve.
1074
00:56:00,485 --> 00:56:03,635
They would Lanta and Vatanen.
1075
00:56:04,095 --> 00:56:05,495
Would have come back, wouldn't he?
1076
00:56:05,585 --> 00:56:06,075
Yes.
1077
00:56:06,115 --> 00:56:10,045
People may or may not be aware, but
sort of midway through 85 Argentina,
1078
00:56:10,235 --> 00:56:13,865
Vartan had a horrible accident where
the car did that jumping business.
1079
00:56:13,875 --> 00:56:14,065
Yep.
1080
00:56:14,225 --> 00:56:18,695
Didn't land properly and he end over ended
and the seat fell off inside the car.
1081
00:56:18,855 --> 00:56:21,705
So he got all knocked around
in the car and really flattened
1082
00:56:21,705 --> 00:56:23,225
his knees, broke his back.
1083
00:56:23,225 --> 00:56:23,785
He was in.
1084
00:56:23,915 --> 00:56:26,855
Traction basically for like a
year and a half or something.
1085
00:56:26,855 --> 00:56:28,155
I believe he said in an interview.
1086
00:56:28,235 --> 00:56:30,655
So, so we've, uh, we've
talked about the cars there.
1087
00:56:30,885 --> 00:56:31,895
Let's pivot now.
1088
00:56:31,895 --> 00:56:37,105
We'll talk about the drivers, see if
we can do a little thumbnail on each.
1089
00:56:37,195 --> 00:56:40,495
I've sort of stack rank, the
ones that we mentioned in the
1090
00:56:40,505 --> 00:56:42,445
title of our presentation here.
1091
00:56:42,625 --> 00:56:47,485
And it begins at ends where if you
look at any footage of Ari Vartanen
1092
00:56:47,495 --> 00:56:52,190
driving a Ford Escort, You've got
the car being driven completely
1093
00:56:52,390 --> 00:56:54,890
out of control, completely wildly.
1094
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:59,490
And then when he's interviewed
afterwards, his English is perfect,
1095
00:56:59,740 --> 00:57:02,320
his demeanour is completely calm.
1096
00:57:02,490 --> 00:57:07,630
The theatre of that made
it an awesome TV spectacle.
1097
00:57:07,750 --> 00:57:13,730
So the spectacle was almost there before
the cars came along and made it a thing.
1098
00:57:13,730 --> 00:57:18,590
But what I realized that I'm
predisposed to feel very positively
1099
00:57:18,590 --> 00:57:22,890
towards Hannu Mikkola, because he
had an amazing run at the RAC rally.
1100
00:57:23,060 --> 00:57:27,800
You talk about being imprinted as rallying
and motorsport was imprinted on me.
1101
00:57:28,015 --> 00:57:35,455
The superiority of Hannu Mikkola and
first the Escort and then the Quattro,
1102
00:57:35,645 --> 00:57:37,915
that was really impressed upon me.
1103
00:57:37,915 --> 00:57:42,135
In our notes here I put the comeback king
and when you watch the videos of events
1104
00:57:42,155 --> 00:57:46,135
now that's what's really striking about
him is that he can have issues but he
1105
00:57:46,135 --> 00:57:51,275
will still be there at the finish and
he seems to have incredible stamina.
1106
00:57:51,595 --> 00:57:54,355
He seems to get better the
longer the event goes on.
1107
00:57:54,875 --> 00:57:57,035
Hanumikola is a legend.
1108
00:57:57,045 --> 00:58:01,685
He's one of those people that big
fish stories are written about.
1109
00:58:01,725 --> 00:58:06,525
It's so unbelievable, the stuff that
happened to him, but it's also true.
1110
00:58:06,635 --> 00:58:10,835
And he also kind of epitomizes
what I call the full send.
1111
00:58:11,015 --> 00:58:12,185
Sort of mentality.
1112
00:58:12,235 --> 00:58:15,255
I mean, there's one of the videos
that you and I reviewed where they
1113
00:58:15,255 --> 00:58:18,955
broke the front suspension and I
won't talk about the stupidity of the
1114
00:58:18,955 --> 00:58:21,275
steering box design on those cars.
1115
00:58:21,305 --> 00:58:24,185
You know, it all makes sense when you put
it in the context of rally, but he's like,
1116
00:58:24,185 --> 00:58:27,415
you know what, to your point, I'm bringing
the car home with my shielder on it.
1117
00:58:27,415 --> 00:58:29,265
Very Greek in that sense.
1118
00:58:29,275 --> 00:58:31,029
So he decides, well, we can't go forward.
1119
00:58:31,030 --> 00:58:35,040
So I'll drive it backwards for the
next eight miles to the service stop.
1120
00:58:35,050 --> 00:58:36,200
And you're like, what?
1121
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,810
There's another one where he lost
a front wheel and he tells his co
1122
00:58:39,810 --> 00:58:43,700
pilot to get out on the back of
the car to counterbalance the fact
1123
00:58:43,700 --> 00:58:44,650
that he doesn't have a front wheel.
1124
00:58:44,650 --> 00:58:48,720
And he continues to go just full
out with only three wheels and just.
1125
00:58:48,860 --> 00:58:53,570
The nuttiest stuff happened to him, but
he would get out of the car and they're
1126
00:58:53,570 --> 00:58:56,070
like, I don't know what's going on.
1127
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:59,230
And he's got this cat ate
the canary grin on his face.
1128
00:58:59,230 --> 00:59:01,120
He was always so happy.
1129
00:59:01,190 --> 00:59:04,110
He's just one of these people
that would light up an interview.
1130
00:59:04,110 --> 00:59:06,789
And you're like, how could you
find fault with Hanu Mikola?
1131
00:59:06,940 --> 00:59:12,280
Not only that, he was sort of the elder
statesman, when you compare him to Alain,
1132
00:59:12,470 --> 00:59:16,880
who was in his 30s, Toivonen, who was
in his late 20s, Walter Rural was sort
1133
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:19,090
of there, but Hanomikola was in his 40s.
1134
00:59:19,270 --> 00:59:22,760
And I don't want to say he was an
original flying fin, but he's of that
1135
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:27,280
generation of rally drivers growing up in
Scandinavia, where to go to school every
1136
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:29,370
day, it was like driving a rally for him.
1137
00:59:29,370 --> 00:59:33,625
So, he was The guy, you know,
he was the man, if you will.
1138
00:59:33,645 --> 00:59:38,285
And so I realized that as a kid, I'm
like, this is somebody to aspire to be.
1139
00:59:38,285 --> 00:59:40,185
Hannu Mikkola, unbelievable.
1140
00:59:40,275 --> 00:59:44,915
He's from that part of Finland,
right up in the north, fought
1141
00:59:44,945 --> 00:59:46,175
the Russians in the war.
1142
00:59:46,525 --> 00:59:49,975
And there's definitely a difference
between these sort of blonde
1143
00:59:49,975 --> 00:59:54,265
Finns in the north and the
guys like Toivonen and Arlen.
1144
00:59:54,740 --> 00:59:59,060
who have dark hair and dark eyes and
are from around Helsinki and I need
1145
00:59:59,060 --> 01:00:03,340
to do more research but wasn't Arlen's
dad like an ice racing champion?
1146
01:00:03,510 --> 01:00:07,740
So you feel like their skills are
more the way that Kenny Roberts grew
1147
01:00:07,740 --> 01:00:12,300
up racing dirt track and therefore
he could slide a two stroke sports
1148
01:00:12,300 --> 01:00:13,890
race bike in exactly the same way.
1149
01:00:14,220 --> 01:00:17,310
You felt like there was that
translation for Arlen and Teuvenin.
1150
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:21,860
There doesn't seem to be any of that
for these guys like Vartanen and
1151
01:00:21,860 --> 01:00:23,520
Mikkola, who live in the far north.
1152
01:00:23,610 --> 01:00:27,980
What's also interesting about Hanno
is he was the first to come over
1153
01:00:27,980 --> 01:00:31,920
to the works team, and then they
brought over other popular drivers.
1154
01:00:31,940 --> 01:00:34,950
You look at Stig Blomqvist, you
look at Walter Röhrl, Michel Mouton.
1155
01:00:34,980 --> 01:00:38,560
They were already successful
with other cars, rear wheel drive
1156
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:40,000
cars, and so was Hanno Mikkola.
1157
01:00:40,030 --> 01:00:43,825
But the thing was, when you looked
at the progression, Audi didn't
1158
01:00:43,845 --> 01:00:47,045
favor him as their prized calf.
1159
01:00:47,155 --> 01:00:51,225
If you look, while everybody else
was running the Sport Quattro, he was
1160
01:00:51,225 --> 01:00:53,005
still driving the long wheelbase car.
1161
01:00:53,135 --> 01:00:56,275
And when the S1 came out,
then he got the Sport Quattro.
1162
01:00:56,275 --> 01:00:59,945
And it's like, he was always a generation
behind, even though all of these things
1163
01:00:59,945 --> 01:01:01,785
happened in very rapid succession.
1164
01:01:01,875 --> 01:01:06,050
It was like, your most experienced
guy, Doesn't have your best card.
1165
01:01:06,060 --> 01:01:08,440
No, because I think they
gave him the card of finning.
1166
01:01:08,610 --> 01:01:08,970
Yeah.
1167
01:01:09,070 --> 01:01:12,810
I think Mouton was a like,
go out and win or crash.
1168
01:01:12,870 --> 01:01:15,510
And I hadn't realized to be honest
that she was just that much.
1169
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:16,530
Super aggressive.
1170
01:01:16,540 --> 01:01:19,020
She was like that until I
did some research for this.
1171
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:24,439
I think Rawl, the RAC rally that I watched
where he was using that DSG gearbox.
1172
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:26,750
In the interview, he talks
about how the team just wanted
1173
01:01:26,750 --> 01:01:27,890
to get as far as possible.
1174
01:01:28,095 --> 01:01:30,555
And there was no way he was going
to, I mean, that whole no pace notes
1175
01:01:30,555 --> 01:01:34,465
thing on the RAC rally, really that
benefits the local runners, right?
1176
01:01:34,705 --> 01:01:37,215
Anybody, any British rally
guys, they're going to have used
1177
01:01:37,215 --> 01:01:39,625
these stages for local rallies.
1178
01:01:39,635 --> 01:01:43,465
So it was a way of tipping the
tables a little bit in our favor.
1179
01:01:43,465 --> 01:01:46,885
And somebody like Roel, who'd
only came for the international
1180
01:01:46,885 --> 01:01:49,425
event, you know, inevitably
he's at a bit of a disadvantage.
1181
01:01:49,425 --> 01:01:52,045
So I can understand, you know, why would
you want to commit to an event like
1182
01:01:52,245 --> 01:01:53,675
that where you're at a disadvantage?
1183
01:01:53,815 --> 01:01:54,705
I rate.
1184
01:01:56,190 --> 01:01:58,300
More and more as the years go by.
1185
01:01:58,690 --> 01:02:01,770
Partly because of stuff I've
seen him do with Porsche in
1186
01:02:01,770 --> 01:02:04,050
the years since World Rally.
1187
01:02:04,150 --> 01:02:08,290
He was World Rally Champion in 1980,
he was Champion in 82, even when the
1188
01:02:08,300 --> 01:02:10,710
Audi was borderline a developed car.
1189
01:02:10,820 --> 01:02:15,510
And he did that by not trying to beat
it on sheer speed, but just by doing the
1190
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:17,909
best that he could with his Ascona 400.
1191
01:02:18,050 --> 01:02:22,270
and letting the reliability of
the Audi be its own undoing.
1192
01:02:22,300 --> 01:02:27,040
Apart from Mouton, he and Mouton are the
only, I would describe those two as the
1193
01:02:27,060 --> 01:02:30,490
only non Scandinavian front rank drivers.
1194
01:02:30,630 --> 01:02:34,970
At that time, yes, there were a handful
of Italians and a couple of other
1195
01:02:34,970 --> 01:02:36,780
Frenchmen in there and things like that.
1196
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:38,180
Not front runners.
1197
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:42,600
Because what you don't realize about
WRC at that time is, there was still,
1198
01:02:42,715 --> 01:02:48,095
A clear delineation between the four
wheel drive cars, the two wheel drive
1199
01:02:48,095 --> 01:02:50,355
groupies, and then everybody else.
1200
01:02:50,375 --> 01:02:54,535
And today, you know, we call
that WRC1, WRC2, and WRCJr.
1201
01:02:54,605 --> 01:02:56,465
And so back then they
sort of didn't do that.
1202
01:02:56,465 --> 01:02:57,875
It was like, you know, here's everybody.
1203
01:02:57,925 --> 01:03:00,305
Yes, your front runners are
going to be the works teams
1204
01:03:00,305 --> 01:03:02,035
drivers that we're talking about.
1205
01:03:02,215 --> 01:03:05,675
But when you specifically talk about
Walter Wuerl, you have to remember
1206
01:03:05,675 --> 01:03:08,955
that his legacy starts in rally.
1207
01:03:09,155 --> 01:03:13,845
But continues with Audi for many
years after that, because he came to
1208
01:03:13,855 --> 01:03:17,195
the States and then partnered with
Hans Stuck and Hurley Haywood and
1209
01:03:17,195 --> 01:03:19,275
ran in Trans Am and then in IMSA.
1210
01:03:19,585 --> 01:03:24,775
Audi used Walter to teach Hans, who was
already a well established driver and
1211
01:03:24,785 --> 01:03:26,765
Hurley, this is how you drive an Audi.
1212
01:03:26,795 --> 01:03:29,405
This is how you drive a
turbo all wheel drive car.
1213
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:33,940
We need to use rally techniques
in road racing to get these
1214
01:03:33,940 --> 01:03:35,050
cars to be competitive.
1215
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:39,500
We have quote unquote an unfair
advantage here because of Quattro and
1216
01:03:39,500 --> 01:03:43,730
we won't get into that, but Walter
always compared himself to Ari Vatanen.
1217
01:03:43,810 --> 01:03:46,940
They were rivals without being rivals
because for whatever reason you would
1218
01:03:46,940 --> 01:03:50,080
think rally would be one of these
disciplines of motorsport where it's
1219
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:53,900
like coming after a football match and
you know bloody noses and smelling of
1220
01:03:53,900 --> 01:03:56,680
beer and sweat and things like that,
but it was actually very civilized.
1221
01:03:56,875 --> 01:03:58,035
polite in some ways.
1222
01:03:58,135 --> 01:04:00,105
Well, because what you're
doing is so dangerous.
1223
01:04:00,115 --> 01:04:00,555
Exactly.
1224
01:04:00,555 --> 01:04:05,295
You know, I read Kankanen, the next car
through the stage, comes upon Arlen in
1225
01:04:05,295 --> 01:04:09,555
trouble, stops, helps Arlen get back
on the road, helps push the Lancia back
1226
01:04:09,585 --> 01:04:11,315
on the road, doesn't just drive by.
1227
01:04:11,315 --> 01:04:15,945
And that's a legacy of that business
of when the events were less about
1228
01:04:15,965 --> 01:04:17,685
speed and more about endurance.
1229
01:04:18,115 --> 01:04:21,495
Yeah, there is a camaraderie, isn't there,
about rallying that you get a sense that
1230
01:04:21,495 --> 01:04:26,065
they're all friends with each other and
certainly there's a theater about the
1231
01:04:26,075 --> 01:04:30,905
interview which take place where it seems
like the interviewer always says, you
1232
01:04:30,905 --> 01:04:32,295
know, do you know what position you're in?
1233
01:04:32,295 --> 01:04:35,985
And the driver who's competing in
the rally says, No, I've no idea.
1234
01:04:36,685 --> 01:04:37,625
what position I'm in.
1235
01:04:37,695 --> 01:04:42,925
And you can see that there's a banter
about that, which is all sort of summed
1236
01:04:42,925 --> 01:04:47,595
up by that phrase that we all know
so well, associated with rallying.
1237
01:04:47,605 --> 01:04:49,335
How will you be driving Markku?
1238
01:04:49,655 --> 01:04:51,235
Oh, maximum attack.
1239
01:04:51,470 --> 01:04:55,080
My other favorite phrase of his
was, My mechanic is fantastic.
1240
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:56,240
Like, come on.
1241
01:04:56,310 --> 01:04:59,810
I wasn't gonna talk about him first,
but now we've started talking about him.
1242
01:04:59,920 --> 01:05:04,400
There's one interview where he's
like, he's got those Frankenstein dour
1243
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:07,630
brows, and he's like, leaning over the
interview, and it's a dark rally stage,
1244
01:05:07,630 --> 01:05:09,570
and they're talking about the Delta S4.
1245
01:05:09,650 --> 01:05:13,190
And then they mention to him about
the Stratos, and How much he must
1246
01:05:13,190 --> 01:05:15,420
have enjoyed and his face lights up.
1247
01:05:15,420 --> 01:05:18,080
He's like a child, like a child.
1248
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:19,150
He's been given a gift.
1249
01:05:19,150 --> 01:05:24,400
Like his face lights up and oh
man, I was struck in that moment.
1250
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:27,680
I realized that again, you
talk about the imprinted.
1251
01:05:27,750 --> 01:05:28,650
That was the moment.
1252
01:05:28,660 --> 01:05:33,020
It was those interviews that
made me such a Marco Arlen fan.
1253
01:05:33,190 --> 01:05:35,750
But what about Michel Mouton?
1254
01:05:35,820 --> 01:05:40,090
Because I have to say you bigged
her up before we did this.
1255
01:05:40,090 --> 01:05:40,790
And I thought.
1256
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:41,800
You know what?
1257
01:05:41,860 --> 01:05:44,200
She was a great piece of marketing fluff.
1258
01:05:44,350 --> 01:05:47,980
And, you know, she could drive a bit,
but she was great marketing fluff.
1259
01:05:48,100 --> 01:05:53,020
Oh, on the contrary, she could drive a
lot and the marketing fluff was good too.
1260
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:54,400
You know, 100%.
1261
01:05:54,490 --> 01:05:55,920
So what was her background?
1262
01:05:55,940 --> 01:05:57,280
Because I know very little about her.
1263
01:05:57,370 --> 01:05:59,000
She's very private.
1264
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:01,970
It's really hard to get her backstory.
1265
01:06:01,980 --> 01:06:05,660
What I've been able to collect over
the years, she's still on my, you know,
1266
01:06:05,670 --> 01:06:09,965
Mount Everest of People that I would
love to interview on break fix is that
1267
01:06:10,035 --> 01:06:14,055
she came from money, Southern France,
everything that goes along with that.
1268
01:06:14,085 --> 01:06:20,595
And so how she got into racing is still
a little bit foggy, but she got in.
1269
01:06:20,695 --> 01:06:23,565
Cause she's French and she got in
with a French team and then they
1270
01:06:23,565 --> 01:06:26,155
realized she was really fast and
she could do all these things.
1271
01:06:26,310 --> 01:06:29,420
And then moved around like
all the rally drivers did.
1272
01:06:29,420 --> 01:06:33,010
If you follow them, you're like,
man, Stig Blumfuss drove a Talbot?
1273
01:06:33,020 --> 01:06:33,450
Really?
1274
01:06:33,470 --> 01:06:35,200
Like, I always thought
he just drove for Audi.
1275
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:36,590
And, you know, Walter Ruhl drove an Opel.
1276
01:06:36,950 --> 01:06:38,460
They all had to start somewhere.
1277
01:06:38,470 --> 01:06:40,860
So her beginnings are a little foggy.
1278
01:06:41,070 --> 01:06:44,880
How she came to Audi, I have
never been able to figure out.
1279
01:06:44,910 --> 01:06:49,070
Other than the fact that if you look
at what Audi did, they sort of cherry
1280
01:06:49,100 --> 01:06:51,210
picked the best drivers at the time.
1281
01:06:51,220 --> 01:06:54,470
Stig Blumfuss, Walter Ruhl,
Hannu Mikkola, Michel Mouton.
1282
01:06:54,590 --> 01:06:56,230
And they said, Let's do this.
1283
01:06:56,380 --> 01:06:59,660
They talk about it a little bit
in that movie, Race to Glory.
1284
01:06:59,710 --> 01:07:03,720
They introduce her as the new kid
compared to Hanu, compared to Walter,
1285
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:05,560
but they don't go much more into that.
1286
01:07:05,630 --> 01:07:10,820
What makes her more important in some
ways than just the marketing fluff and
1287
01:07:10,820 --> 01:07:14,660
her speed, because she's still fast to
this day when she gets behind the wheel
1288
01:07:14,700 --> 01:07:19,170
of a rally car, Is that there were a
surprising number of women in rally.
1289
01:07:19,180 --> 01:07:22,120
Even one of the commentators
from Top Gear, Sue Baker,
1290
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:24,170
was a former rally co driver.
1291
01:07:24,220 --> 01:07:25,770
We saw that in some of those interviews.
1292
01:07:26,010 --> 01:07:31,520
You know, her and Fabrizia Pons,
an all woman team on an underdog.
1293
01:07:31,580 --> 01:07:33,580
Audi had never done rally before.
1294
01:07:33,690 --> 01:07:35,000
They were the new kid on the block.
1295
01:07:35,010 --> 01:07:35,680
Everything was new.
1296
01:07:35,700 --> 01:07:36,630
All wheel drive was new.
1297
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:37,460
All of it was new.
1298
01:07:37,460 --> 01:07:41,250
And here we have a woman and a female co
driver and they're out running with the
1299
01:07:41,250 --> 01:07:44,190
bulls, kicking butt and taking names.
1300
01:07:44,210 --> 01:07:47,560
Now, Is she as winning as the others?
1301
01:07:47,740 --> 01:07:49,260
Yes and no.
1302
01:07:49,390 --> 01:07:51,140
On paper, maybe not.
1303
01:07:51,140 --> 01:07:56,190
Hanu Mikala had 20 rally wins under his
belt by the time he had gotten to Audi.
1304
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:57,940
Again, he was the elder statesman, right?
1305
01:07:57,940 --> 01:08:00,690
He had already seen it, been there,
done that, gotten the t shirt.
1306
01:08:00,970 --> 01:08:04,470
But Michelle, she's someone to aspire to.
1307
01:08:04,630 --> 01:08:10,260
In the face of everything, in the face
of the early 80s, and all the tropes and
1308
01:08:10,260 --> 01:08:13,860
the stereotypes and the discrimination
and everything that goes along with
1309
01:08:13,890 --> 01:08:16,540
motorsport at that time, she persevered.
1310
01:08:16,710 --> 01:08:20,425
But what's interesting
is, Rally supported her.
1311
01:08:20,465 --> 01:08:21,745
It didn't hold her back.
1312
01:08:21,795 --> 01:08:25,285
They didn't say, well, you're just a
third rate, we need a fourth driver, and
1313
01:08:25,295 --> 01:08:26,955
you're going to drive the slowest car.
1314
01:08:26,985 --> 01:08:27,775
Those kinds of things.
1315
01:08:27,785 --> 01:08:29,045
They let her shine.
1316
01:08:29,045 --> 01:08:29,965
They let her excel.
1317
01:08:30,005 --> 01:08:32,705
Isn't there something of the
sort of Margaret Thatcher thing?
1318
01:08:32,735 --> 01:08:35,855
They always said that, you know,
in a cabinet meeting that Margaret
1319
01:08:35,855 --> 01:08:37,524
Thatcher just outmanned all the men.
1320
01:08:37,705 --> 01:08:38,245
In the room.
1321
01:08:38,385 --> 01:08:39,565
In some ways you could say that.
1322
01:08:39,615 --> 01:08:42,805
And in that sense, there's almost
an argument that she sort of
1323
01:08:42,885 --> 01:08:46,705
knocked back equality because
she was just so fucking awesome.
1324
01:08:46,895 --> 01:08:47,225
Yeah.
1325
01:08:47,275 --> 01:08:50,465
You know, almost like a Barack Obama
was another, you know, his sheer
1326
01:08:50,465 --> 01:08:52,825
ability as an individual overcame.
1327
01:08:52,955 --> 01:08:56,885
Whatever prejudices there might've been
knocking around, her speed overcame.
1328
01:08:56,975 --> 01:09:01,175
You know, I've had that revelation now
that I really thought it was clever
1329
01:09:01,185 --> 01:09:04,795
marketing for Audi because Audi always
did have clever marketing and I'm sure as
1330
01:09:04,795 --> 01:09:06,835
shit it was that, but she's really fast.
1331
01:09:06,835 --> 01:09:10,675
And that decision in one of those RAC
rallies to give her the short wheelbase
1332
01:09:10,725 --> 01:09:15,645
car with more power, like absolutely
give her the fast car and give Mikkola
1333
01:09:15,685 --> 01:09:17,695
the car that's more likely to get home.
1334
01:09:17,705 --> 01:09:20,185
Like that's exactly what I would
have done if I was the team manager.
1335
01:09:20,580 --> 01:09:22,350
What a awesome pairing.
1336
01:09:22,440 --> 01:09:28,100
There is film I've seen, this was
some years ago, of her and Mikkola
1337
01:09:28,300 --> 01:09:32,000
communicating with each other basically
where it's a safari rally and Mikkola
1338
01:09:32,580 --> 01:09:37,030
has stopped to help and the teamwork
there with Mikkola making the effort
1339
01:09:37,030 --> 01:09:39,240
to help her with it being about Audi.
1340
01:09:39,320 --> 01:09:43,330
Finishing that I remember
feeling was, uh, was really cool.
1341
01:09:43,380 --> 01:09:46,380
Audi viewed it more as
an endurance than a race.
1342
01:09:46,420 --> 01:09:49,520
They were proving their
technology in a big way.
1343
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:51,770
They needed those cars to
finish because think about it.
1344
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:55,450
If the Quattros failed
consistently and they broke,
1345
01:09:55,480 --> 01:09:57,440
they didn't fail, but they broke.
1346
01:09:57,540 --> 01:10:01,870
But if they had failed miserably,
where would we be with Audi today?
1347
01:10:01,950 --> 01:10:03,070
Think about that for a second.
1348
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:03,580
Yeah.
1349
01:10:03,710 --> 01:10:07,720
Well, my granddad had
an Audi coupe in 1970.
1350
01:10:07,935 --> 01:10:12,655
There were hundreds of Audis in Britain,
only hundreds, you know, it was that.
1351
01:10:12,715 --> 01:10:18,085
By 1980, and when the Quattro came
along, the brand was established.
1352
01:10:18,145 --> 01:10:23,055
They did that very famous Vaux Brun
Duc technique advertising campaign,
1353
01:10:23,085 --> 01:10:24,745
which was based around the Quattro.
1354
01:10:24,875 --> 01:10:28,885
Not to wax poetic about Michelle Mouton,
but one thing I want to point out about
1355
01:10:28,885 --> 01:10:34,580
her, when you watch her drive, she's
not as Ham fisted, like Hanumikola is,
1356
01:10:34,580 --> 01:10:35,950
where he's willing to take the risk.
1357
01:10:35,950 --> 01:10:39,580
He brings the car home, but he's going
to bring it home again, come hell or
1358
01:10:39,580 --> 01:10:42,000
high water, but she's not as precise.
1359
01:10:42,355 --> 01:10:45,265
As Walter rural, Walter is very exact.
1360
01:10:45,265 --> 01:10:46,545
He's very consistent.
1361
01:10:46,555 --> 01:10:49,965
You know, it's just his very
German way of being and of driving.
1362
01:10:50,005 --> 01:10:53,645
So we got a flamboyant Flynn
and we got a very stoic German.
1363
01:10:53,695 --> 01:10:57,515
And then we have this French woman
who sort of blends the two together.
1364
01:10:57,660 --> 01:11:01,610
Watching her drive was like
watching someone ballroom dance.
1365
01:11:01,810 --> 01:11:04,420
She had this relationship
with the quattro, especially
1366
01:11:04,420 --> 01:11:05,280
with the sport quattro.
1367
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:07,810
Once they got her away from
the long wheelbase car, that's
1368
01:11:07,810 --> 01:11:08,950
where she began to blossom.
1369
01:11:08,950 --> 01:11:10,310
She could get it to rotate.
1370
01:11:10,470 --> 01:11:12,940
It's like watching a
formula drift person today.
1371
01:11:12,940 --> 01:11:16,850
Where it's just like, it's like no sweat
to have the car completely out of control.
1372
01:11:16,890 --> 01:11:19,950
And she is composed and
as cool as a cucumber.
1373
01:11:20,030 --> 01:11:22,030
So, that's the magic.
1374
01:11:22,225 --> 01:11:26,915
Of Michel Mouton is when you understand
that she's the middle ground.
1375
01:11:27,125 --> 01:11:31,075
And then sadly you have Stig
Blumfist, who's the quiet guy in
1376
01:11:31,075 --> 01:11:36,035
the background, but is an absolute
unbelievable driver behind the wheel.
1377
01:11:36,275 --> 01:11:37,775
And he gets out and he's just.
1378
01:11:37,900 --> 01:11:42,020
Very mild mannered Clark Kent type and
you're just like, oh, okay, but again,
1379
01:11:42,020 --> 01:11:43,240
behind the wheel, you're Superman.
1380
01:11:43,340 --> 01:11:46,590
We should draw a distinction
between the true Scandinavians,
1381
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:47,620
the Swedes and the Norwegians.
1382
01:11:48,050 --> 01:11:49,280
We're not mentioning Norwegians.
1383
01:11:49,410 --> 01:11:51,290
The Swedes like Blomqvist.
1384
01:11:51,340 --> 01:11:55,440
And of course, Stig Blomqvist is the
reason why Top Gear had the Stig.
1385
01:11:55,440 --> 01:11:56,950
That's where the name came from.
1386
01:11:57,010 --> 01:11:59,570
So the Audi Works team, superstars.
1387
01:11:59,725 --> 01:12:00,725
In some respects.
1388
01:12:00,865 --> 01:12:03,705
Here's the thing, I want to go back
to rural for a second, just a second,
1389
01:12:03,705 --> 01:12:05,285
because it brings us to Peugeot.
1390
01:12:05,455 --> 01:12:09,185
As you and I have been studying this
and talking about this, I began to
1391
01:12:09,315 --> 01:12:11,945
reanalyze it with a whole new lens.
1392
01:12:12,055 --> 01:12:14,765
Something started to emerge from this.
1393
01:12:15,135 --> 01:12:19,285
Listening to interviews where Walter
would say something about Ari Vatanen,
1394
01:12:19,425 --> 01:12:21,915
and he's like, well, don't tell Ari I
said that, and Ari would be like, well,
1395
01:12:21,915 --> 01:12:24,695
don't tell Walter I said that, you know,
and they would critique each other.
1396
01:12:25,005 --> 01:12:27,915
You know, again, very stoic,
very German, Walter World.
1397
01:12:27,915 --> 01:12:29,055
This is how we do things.
1398
01:12:29,075 --> 01:12:30,715
This is the moment that we turn.
1399
01:12:30,715 --> 01:12:33,145
This is the time at which we break
and all these kinds of things.
1400
01:12:33,305 --> 01:12:37,575
And Ari Vatanen talks about playing
music with his eyes closed and
1401
01:12:37,575 --> 01:12:41,035
how driving a rally car was like
playing the piano and this and that.
1402
01:12:41,085 --> 01:12:46,800
And I began to realize There was two
other drivers, very notable rivalry,
1403
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:50,380
that you and I have talked about quite
a bit, that paralleled the two of them,
1404
01:12:50,430 --> 01:12:55,600
and that is, the professor himself,
Alan Prost, is like Walter Rural,
1405
01:12:55,750 --> 01:12:58,339
and Ari Vatanen is like Ayrton Senna.
1406
01:12:58,340 --> 01:13:04,090
I mean, Vatanen's appeal to me is
similar to the appeal that Senna had.
1407
01:13:04,685 --> 01:13:04,935
Exactly.
1408
01:13:04,935 --> 01:13:07,625
I mean, the two of them both
leapt off the screen for me.
1409
01:13:07,625 --> 01:13:14,865
Vartanen, the level of commitment
that Vartanen shows is just God
1410
01:13:14,885 --> 01:13:16,565
is protecting him, let's be clear.
1411
01:13:17,025 --> 01:13:21,660
There's also, especially with the
escorts, And you talk about the
1412
01:13:21,660 --> 01:13:27,420
artistry of the drift, the length of
the slide, the elegance of the slide,
1413
01:13:27,450 --> 01:13:30,410
that is just what Ari Vatanen did.
1414
01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:31,650
Just feel like nobody else.
1415
01:13:31,700 --> 01:13:35,980
I didn't come to respect Vatanen until
he broke Audi's record at Pike's Peak.
1416
01:13:36,050 --> 01:13:38,940
If you go back and watch the film,
and you can search for this on
1417
01:13:38,940 --> 01:13:40,740
YouTube, it's called Climb Dance.
1418
01:13:40,760 --> 01:13:44,820
It's set to music with the sound
of the 205 engine in that 405,
1419
01:13:44,860 --> 01:13:46,390
the whole way up Pike's Peak.
1420
01:13:46,460 --> 01:13:48,290
Then you see the magic.
1421
01:13:48,505 --> 01:13:53,025
of Ari Vatanen, because he's by himself,
as are the rules of the Pikes Peak Hill
1422
01:13:53,025 --> 01:13:55,065
Climb, in the old days of Pikes Peak.
1423
01:13:55,065 --> 01:13:57,745
Not today, where it's asphalt
all the way to the summit.
1424
01:13:57,925 --> 01:14:02,185
This is back when it was loose gravel
and dirt and changing weather conditions.
1425
01:14:02,195 --> 01:14:03,755
13 miles of hell.
1426
01:14:03,820 --> 01:14:05,310
To get to the top of Pikes Peak.
1427
01:14:05,340 --> 01:14:06,850
I'm not going to spoil it.
1428
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:11,810
If Ollie and I, my son, we'll talk about
the Ari Vatanen sun visor, because there's
1429
01:14:11,810 --> 01:14:15,550
one moment where he comes around the
corner and the sun's right in his eyes.
1430
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:19,280
And he's holding the car in a slide
right on the edge of the mountain.
1431
01:14:19,470 --> 01:14:21,630
And he puts his arm up to block the sun.
1432
01:14:21,990 --> 01:14:22,130
Yep.
1433
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:23,480
And I always think of that.
1434
01:14:23,500 --> 01:14:27,340
You know, I have a class of students
every year and they quite often come up
1435
01:14:27,340 --> 01:14:29,250
with that as students are wont to do.
1436
01:14:29,470 --> 01:14:32,550
They're quite into solving
problems that don't really exist.
1437
01:14:32,610 --> 01:14:36,410
And a couple of students have talked
about how the sun in the eyes is really
1438
01:14:36,410 --> 01:14:41,520
dangerous and what you need is one of
these windshields that light shade, light.
1439
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:44,970
And I'm like, you know, I've got something
that's really going to work well for you.
1440
01:14:45,020 --> 01:14:45,460
It's the Vatanen.
1441
01:14:46,550 --> 01:14:48,310
The Vatanen Sun Visor!
1442
01:14:49,620 --> 01:14:53,390
And again, that whole trip
to the summit is incredible.
1443
01:14:53,420 --> 01:14:55,270
And if you've never seen
it, you have to watch it.
1444
01:14:55,300 --> 01:14:59,600
But what you do need to realize, though,
is even though Ari Vatanen broke the
1445
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:04,140
record at Pike's Peak at that time,
in period, it wasn't by that much.
1446
01:15:04,190 --> 01:15:07,080
If you go back and look at
the timesheet, it's enough.
1447
01:15:07,310 --> 01:15:10,910
But it's not like, oh, we destroyed it
by 10 seconds, like what the Peugeot
1448
01:15:10,910 --> 01:15:15,800
205 T16 was doing when it first came
on the scene way ahead of everybody.
1449
01:15:15,810 --> 01:15:17,460
So it's a glorious run.
1450
01:15:17,460 --> 01:15:19,600
It's sort of like the lap
of the gods at Monaco.
1451
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:22,250
When you're watching Senna,
he's just in the zone.
1452
01:15:22,260 --> 01:15:23,440
He's doing his thing.
1453
01:15:23,450 --> 01:15:26,270
Although I don't think Senna ever
put his hands up to the sun, but
1454
01:15:26,270 --> 01:15:30,479
the point is, I began to draw a
parallel between Prost and Senna.
1455
01:15:30,620 --> 01:15:32,640
and Volta Rural and Ari Vatnan.
1456
01:15:32,700 --> 01:15:33,640
I think it works.
1457
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:34,560
I think it's valid.
1458
01:15:34,730 --> 01:15:38,480
Yeah, I mean, I feel like rallying is
so much more random than Formula One.
1459
01:15:38,480 --> 01:15:40,060
I mean, I feel like Rural.
1460
01:15:40,150 --> 01:15:42,110
Well, I don't know, Prost
was too, weren't you?
1461
01:15:42,110 --> 01:15:44,200
You produced a calculated approach.
1462
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:47,200
You didn't just throw caution
to the wind in the way that
1463
01:15:47,210 --> 01:15:49,270
people like Senna and Vatnan did.
1464
01:15:49,270 --> 01:15:53,390
There was a definite sense that they
threw caution to the wind and, and if
1465
01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:57,200
you were an event competing with them, if
you were going to win, you needed to be
1466
01:15:57,200 --> 01:15:59,490
able to have that same kind of brain out.
1467
01:15:59,740 --> 01:16:04,110
commitment because the British stuff
they always talk about how only Roger
1468
01:16:04,110 --> 01:16:08,080
Clark could like compete with the
Scandinavians and it's yeah only Roger
1469
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:12,470
Clark had the courage to slide the
car that much all the others British
1470
01:16:12,470 --> 01:16:15,780
guys prior to that time they just
didn't have the commitment level.
1471
01:16:15,925 --> 01:16:17,465
So we talked about Vartan in there.
1472
01:16:17,465 --> 01:16:21,515
Final thing I would say about him is like
Mikkola, he's from the north from that.
1473
01:16:21,525 --> 01:16:24,955
So there's that kind of
sort of stoicism about him.
1474
01:16:24,955 --> 01:16:27,255
The other thing I'd say about
him is, and you and I've talked
1475
01:16:27,325 --> 01:16:30,635
about this before, Eric, there's a
wonderful biography that's about him.
1476
01:16:30,635 --> 01:16:33,335
And it's, I mean, he had this terrible
accident and then he convinced
1477
01:16:33,335 --> 01:16:38,525
himself he had AIDS and couldn't rid
himself of the idea that he had AIDS.
1478
01:16:38,525 --> 01:16:38,955
It was a.
1479
01:16:39,255 --> 01:16:43,975
full on like and as bonkers as he was
behind the wheel this was as bonkers as
1480
01:16:43,975 --> 01:16:48,345
a whole that he fell down and somehow
managed to drag himself out of it's
1481
01:16:48,345 --> 01:16:52,055
really an incredible kind of a story
and then he goes on and does like pike
1482
01:16:52,085 --> 01:16:56,375
peak and harry dakar and it's like no
slower than he was before and then he
1483
01:16:56,375 --> 01:17:00,275
goes on to be a member of the european
parliament because obviously that's you
1484
01:17:00,275 --> 01:17:04,325
know that's what you do i mean you know
that's what you do yeah so we'll move
1485
01:17:04,465 --> 01:17:10,455
to my favorite Now, you described Lancia
as the sort of grandee team of rallying.
1486
01:17:10,625 --> 01:17:11,805
You know, I think they were, right?
1487
01:17:11,805 --> 01:17:13,535
Because they had this continual presence.
1488
01:17:13,535 --> 01:17:17,025
And you would expect them,
therefore, to pick the best driver.
1489
01:17:17,305 --> 01:17:22,055
And this is why I feel like, although
I love Vartanen, he's like Mouton.
1490
01:17:22,085 --> 01:17:23,845
I mean, the guy just couldn't finish.
1491
01:17:23,915 --> 01:17:24,305
No.
1492
01:17:24,415 --> 01:17:25,985
He finished more than Mouton.
1493
01:17:26,055 --> 01:17:27,155
He couldn't finish enough.
1494
01:17:27,165 --> 01:17:29,385
And your comparison with Roar.
1495
01:17:30,150 --> 01:17:31,650
I mean, Roar was a finisher.
1496
01:17:31,700 --> 01:17:35,360
With him, it was done
in a very, very study.
1497
01:17:35,380 --> 01:17:37,970
I'd have no fear sitting
next to him driving fast.
1498
01:17:38,060 --> 01:17:40,620
Sitting next to Vartanen,
fucking hell, you were taking
1499
01:17:40,620 --> 01:17:42,160
your life in your hands, right?
1500
01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:43,790
Because Extra insurance policy.
1501
01:17:44,260 --> 01:17:49,070
I mean, the bloke, he drove it like
it was like a computer game, right?
1502
01:17:49,070 --> 01:17:50,570
Where it doesn't matter if you crash.
1503
01:17:50,780 --> 01:17:52,260
Literally, that's how he was.
1504
01:17:52,300 --> 01:17:53,570
Now, I feel like I'll end.
1505
01:17:53,810 --> 01:17:55,040
Was like that as well.
1506
01:17:55,040 --> 01:17:57,900
And Arlen was at Lance here for 20 years.
1507
01:17:58,380 --> 01:18:01,530
When you see interviews of
him, his Italian's like mine.
1508
01:18:01,710 --> 01:18:06,190
The Finns would call him like the Italian
Finn, because he like lost his temper and
1509
01:18:06,190 --> 01:18:08,590
was all like gesturing and was passionate.
1510
01:18:08,670 --> 01:18:12,070
You know, it was like the Finns were like,
this is, he's not one of ours anymore.
1511
01:18:12,070 --> 01:18:13,990
He's like, he's gone native.
1512
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:16,170
Sort of like Schumacher
in that way, right?
1513
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:17,850
So many years of Ferrari.
1514
01:18:18,020 --> 01:18:21,280
No, because Schumacher
never humanized Arlen.
1515
01:18:21,420 --> 01:18:26,030
He was Dauer, and then there
was the moment of humanity.
1516
01:18:26,180 --> 01:18:27,170
So comical.
1517
01:18:27,250 --> 01:18:31,150
In the interviews, whenever they
ask him what's happening, he always
1518
01:18:31,170 --> 01:18:32,760
beats up his own performance.
1519
01:18:32,890 --> 01:18:35,450
They're like, oh, you crashed off down
a fire road, and he's not like, oh,
1520
01:18:35,610 --> 01:18:36,970
I'm lucky to still be in the rally.
1521
01:18:36,970 --> 01:18:40,715
He's like, oh, Two minute penalty
that penalized us two minutes
1522
01:18:40,715 --> 01:18:42,275
and 12 seconds kind of thing.
1523
01:18:42,275 --> 01:18:43,935
It's, it's like all of this.
1524
01:18:43,975 --> 01:18:48,025
I've an auto sport that I, I wish I'd
found the quote before we did this, but
1525
01:18:48,025 --> 01:18:51,365
that where the journalist interviews
him and throughout the interview,
1526
01:18:51,425 --> 01:18:53,185
it's San Remo or something like that.
1527
01:18:53,235 --> 01:18:56,695
And it's like between throughout the
interview, he just keeps muttering
1528
01:18:56,705 --> 01:19:01,115
too fast, too fast, or he's just
set fastest stage times, but he
1529
01:19:01,115 --> 01:19:03,135
just keeps muttering too fast.
1530
01:19:04,155 --> 01:19:09,175
On one of the RAC rallies, he
spins the S4 flat in fifth,
1531
01:19:09,295 --> 01:19:10,725
and then he's able to recover.
1532
01:19:10,955 --> 01:19:13,835
And in the next two stages,
sets fastest stage time.
1533
01:19:13,935 --> 01:19:17,425
I mean, the bloke just had, I
wouldn't say no fear, because
1534
01:19:17,425 --> 01:19:18,825
I feel like that's Vartanen.
1535
01:19:18,855 --> 01:19:23,215
I feel like he just erred the
right side of the Vartanen.
1536
01:19:23,215 --> 01:19:26,075
But he would be my number one.
1537
01:19:26,175 --> 01:19:28,265
Like Lancia, I would have picked him.
1538
01:19:28,435 --> 01:19:29,915
And I might have picked Mikkola.
1539
01:19:30,135 --> 01:19:33,005
As a backup, if I was
gonna pick a dream team.
1540
01:19:33,145 --> 01:19:36,735
And then if you talk about like
Toivonen, his teammate in the other
1541
01:19:36,735 --> 01:19:39,465
car, who had also been rallying forever.
1542
01:19:39,505 --> 01:19:42,795
And unfortunately, Toivonen
died in a horrific accident.
1543
01:19:42,865 --> 01:19:45,245
Well, and let's be clear, if
people aren't aware, it's the
1544
01:19:45,245 --> 01:19:46,545
accident that ends Group B.
1545
01:19:46,545 --> 01:19:49,505
There were other accidents, and
we don't want to dwell on that.
1546
01:19:49,505 --> 01:19:52,685
But really, it's Toivonen's
accident, which ends Group B.
1547
01:19:52,685 --> 01:19:56,245
And something that I hadn't learned
until I was reading about that, was
1548
01:19:56,255 --> 01:19:58,545
that, without getting into details.
1549
01:19:58,565 --> 01:20:00,525
It was the design of the car.
1550
01:20:00,555 --> 01:20:00,855
Yes.
1551
01:20:00,855 --> 01:20:05,075
The fact that the car was fundamentally
a Formula One car, not like a
1552
01:20:05,075 --> 01:20:08,175
Skoda 400, a converted road car.
1553
01:20:08,175 --> 01:20:12,795
No, it was a Formula One kind of
construction, which then meant that
1554
01:20:12,795 --> 01:20:16,415
it was particularly delicate and
vulnerable when the worst happened.
1555
01:20:16,495 --> 01:20:19,035
To be explicit about it, it was a bomb.
1556
01:20:19,265 --> 01:20:23,335
They were sitting on top of the gas
tank, much like a series one Land Rover,
1557
01:20:23,535 --> 01:20:25,125
where you sit on top of the gas tank.
1558
01:20:25,135 --> 01:20:29,245
So those cars were made out of
tube frame and carbon Kevlar.
1559
01:20:29,245 --> 01:20:30,335
They were super light.
1560
01:20:30,345 --> 01:20:34,355
They had none of the crash impact
and safety things because again,
1561
01:20:34,355 --> 01:20:39,095
this was the middle eighties and
developed on top of 1970s ideas.
1562
01:20:39,175 --> 01:20:41,305
So the protection wasn't there.
1563
01:20:41,305 --> 01:20:46,190
And the rules of the FIA didn't dictate
like they do now where the gas tank must
1564
01:20:46,190 --> 01:20:50,080
be protected in this way and so many
inches from the driver and blah blah
1565
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:54,340
blah blah blah and all these systems
that exist there was no fire prevention
1566
01:20:54,350 --> 01:20:59,255
there was maybe a fire extinguisher
if they were lucky That crash was
1567
01:20:59,275 --> 01:21:02,685
absolutely horrific and, and there's
others that go right along with it.
1568
01:21:02,685 --> 01:21:05,925
But the thing about Toivonen though is
when you listen to his interviews, you
1569
01:21:05,925 --> 01:21:11,265
know, with his big gradiated aviator
glasses that he always wore, like
1570
01:21:11,265 --> 01:21:14,665
a lot of other Scandinavians of the
style of that time, you know, those
1571
01:21:14,665 --> 01:21:16,305
big ski glasses that they would wear.
1572
01:21:16,575 --> 01:21:22,585
But the thing is, he reminds me
so much of, like, an Oittanic,
1573
01:21:22,705 --> 01:21:25,185
if you follow today's WRC.
1574
01:21:25,195 --> 01:21:27,005
He's one of those types.
1575
01:21:27,005 --> 01:21:31,665
Like, there's a certain aura in the
new drivers that remind me of Toivonen.
1576
01:21:31,755 --> 01:21:35,990
If you ask me, paint me a picture
of a rally driver, It's Toivonen.
1577
01:21:36,070 --> 01:21:39,970
That's the guy that you go to as
sort of the stereotypical rally
1578
01:21:39,970 --> 01:21:41,800
driver, especially from Scandinavia.
1579
01:21:41,920 --> 01:21:45,380
And he was entertaining, you
know, his English wasn't so great.
1580
01:21:45,390 --> 01:21:47,060
He always made for a good interview.
1581
01:21:47,170 --> 01:21:49,580
Like, Hannu Mikkola, he
was always kind of happy.
1582
01:21:49,670 --> 01:21:53,560
And that's also part of the tragedy
because he's another one of these
1583
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:56,100
cast of characters of Group B.
1584
01:21:56,375 --> 01:22:00,185
That today we have, as you say, there's
this bit of theater, it's almost
1585
01:22:00,195 --> 01:22:04,025
artificial drama, if you think about
it, like is painted even in formula one,
1586
01:22:04,075 --> 01:22:06,015
they want to make racing more exciting.
1587
01:22:06,195 --> 01:22:09,865
Back then there was a camaraderie and you
could tell that they were partying the
1588
01:22:09,865 --> 01:22:11,595
night before and things were happening.
1589
01:22:11,595 --> 01:22:15,935
And it was just the spirit of rally
and of motorsport at that time was
1590
01:22:15,935 --> 01:22:17,285
very different than it is today.
1591
01:22:17,355 --> 01:22:23,215
And I think he epitomized all of it in
one person Toivonen was that example
1592
01:22:23,235 --> 01:22:25,615
of what it was to be group B rally.
1593
01:22:26,290 --> 01:22:30,300
He was another one, like
Pond, who was the MG driver.
1594
01:22:30,390 --> 01:22:32,510
These guys were relentless.
1595
01:22:32,530 --> 01:22:36,310
They had this tenacity, and it was
stupid, and it was foolish, to get
1596
01:22:36,310 --> 01:22:40,740
behind the wheel of a car knowing
that you're suffering from influenza.
1597
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:44,790
Today, your doctor would not clear
you to get on track, or to get on
1598
01:22:44,790 --> 01:22:46,460
a rally, knowing that you're sick.
1599
01:22:46,470 --> 01:22:49,290
They'd be like, look, we're gonna
call another driver, you're gonna lose
1600
01:22:49,290 --> 01:22:50,790
your driver points, whatever it is.
1601
01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:53,190
There's a lot more precaution.
1602
01:22:53,410 --> 01:22:56,610
Taken today than there was back
then launches putting pressure.
1603
01:22:56,610 --> 01:23:00,320
They've got two cars, especially at
Corsica and a lot of the other tracks.
1604
01:23:00,330 --> 01:23:01,760
We need to get this done.
1605
01:23:01,850 --> 01:23:04,140
I don't care if you're
sick, get out there race.
1606
01:23:04,230 --> 01:23:05,300
But they had that drive.
1607
01:23:05,310 --> 01:23:07,130
They had that foolish determination.
1608
01:23:07,270 --> 01:23:10,580
I feel like Toyford in his
head was just farther above the
1609
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:12,420
parapet that anybody else is.
1610
01:23:12,420 --> 01:23:15,250
The car was faster and more
fragile than the others.
1611
01:23:15,370 --> 01:23:16,540
And he.
1612
01:23:16,785 --> 01:23:19,295
was a Vatanen of a driver.
1613
01:23:19,365 --> 01:23:19,795
Yes.
1614
01:23:19,905 --> 01:23:22,175
Rather than an Ahlen of a driver.
1615
01:23:22,265 --> 01:23:26,375
He fell on the wrong side of the two fast.
1616
01:23:26,395 --> 01:23:28,135
And I think Ahlen was lucky.
1617
01:23:28,175 --> 01:23:30,105
That's the word I'd use to describe.
1618
01:23:30,115 --> 01:23:31,905
It was always, he was on the edge.
1619
01:23:31,955 --> 01:23:34,505
But to your point, I think
he drove at 11 tenths.
1620
01:23:34,555 --> 01:23:37,655
Whereas Vatanen and
Teuvenen drove at 13 tenths.
1621
01:23:37,655 --> 01:23:39,505
They were well over their skis.
1622
01:23:39,535 --> 01:23:39,775
Yeah.
1623
01:23:39,805 --> 01:23:40,885
When something went wrong.
1624
01:23:40,975 --> 01:23:43,075
Yeah, I think so as, uh, as well.
1625
01:23:43,085 --> 01:23:47,475
Of course, Arlen and Teufel and both
from the Helsinki area, you know, as
1626
01:23:47,475 --> 01:23:52,085
I say, I, I feel like there's further
investigation around whether or not it
1627
01:23:52,095 --> 01:23:57,525
was the ice racing stuff, how they got
involved in longer stage rallying in
1628
01:23:57,525 --> 01:24:01,905
the first place, because I feel like for
Vatanen and for Mikkola growing up in the
1629
01:24:01,915 --> 01:24:06,005
North, it would have been natural for them
to be on those dirt roads all the time.
1630
01:24:06,155 --> 01:24:08,705
Less so for people living in Helsinki.
1631
01:24:08,775 --> 01:24:12,985
So I want to come back to your lead
in question, to this whole discussion,
1632
01:24:12,985 --> 01:24:16,535
to your presentation, to what you're
doing at the symposium, you laid it out.
1633
01:24:16,825 --> 01:24:17,965
Who was the best?
1634
01:24:18,285 --> 01:24:19,635
Was it the Audi works team?
1635
01:24:19,635 --> 01:24:20,385
Was it Lancia?
1636
01:24:20,425 --> 01:24:21,195
Was it Peugeot?
1637
01:24:21,195 --> 01:24:24,495
And when you say the best, not
necessarily the manufacturer, but we're
1638
01:24:24,505 --> 01:24:26,105
talking about the driver specifically.
1639
01:24:26,135 --> 01:24:28,445
And we've been talking about
them now for a little bit.
1640
01:24:28,555 --> 01:24:33,005
My research, rather than making it easier
for me to answer the questions about the
1641
01:24:33,005 --> 01:24:35,365
driver, it's actually made it harder.
1642
01:24:35,505 --> 01:24:39,955
Because the opportunity to show
greatness was so based on the car,
1643
01:24:39,955 --> 01:24:44,215
you know, like Vatanen was only
great when he had the Peugeot, Arlen
1644
01:24:44,405 --> 01:24:48,285
was only actually competing on the
rallies when the Delta S4 was there.
1645
01:24:48,295 --> 01:24:49,675
So it, cause let's be clear, right?
1646
01:24:49,705 --> 01:24:50,935
Audi won in 18.
1647
01:24:51,090 --> 01:24:52,230
to 83.
1648
01:24:52,470 --> 01:24:57,010
Audi won some events, but Roar won
in 82 with a Niscona 400, which then
1649
01:24:57,010 --> 01:24:58,730
evolves into the Manta later on.
1650
01:24:58,870 --> 01:25:01,710
In 83, Blancas is champion for Audi.
1651
01:25:01,940 --> 01:25:05,770
84 is the year that the
Peugeot comes and is dominant.
1652
01:25:05,800 --> 01:25:10,570
And then 85, you have the Lancia come
in and that being dominant, don't you?
1653
01:25:10,570 --> 01:25:11,660
And yes, absolutely.
1654
01:25:11,700 --> 01:25:15,260
Maybe we should have talked about the
Audi, then the Peugeot, then the Lancia.
1655
01:25:15,425 --> 01:25:18,285
That is the progression,
that is the progression.
1656
01:25:18,435 --> 01:25:23,495
My response to that, my only pushback
to the question is, if you look at
1657
01:25:23,595 --> 01:25:29,845
how Rally was organized before Group
B, and even after Group B, where the
1658
01:25:29,845 --> 01:25:35,815
drivers would switch teams, if Group B
had lasted longer, On the global stage,
1659
01:25:35,855 --> 01:25:39,695
and we had shuffled the deck, let's
just say Vatnan got behind the wheel
1660
01:25:39,695 --> 01:25:43,835
of the Audi and Marco Alain broke his
relationship with Lancia and maybe went
1661
01:25:43,835 --> 01:25:48,855
to Peugeot and Walter Rural went to, you
know, lots of, we shuffled it around.
1662
01:25:49,015 --> 01:25:52,585
It goes back to, is it the
car or is it the driver?
1663
01:25:52,645 --> 01:25:55,695
So can we really quantify
who was the best?
1664
01:25:55,725 --> 01:25:59,685
And if we're going to say who is
the best, what criteria do we use?
1665
01:25:59,685 --> 01:26:02,665
I think this actually goes a
lot back to our conversation.
1666
01:26:02,665 --> 01:26:03,145
We had.
1667
01:26:03,315 --> 01:26:04,935
about the greatness of Senna.
1668
01:26:05,005 --> 01:26:08,125
Where does he stack rank
against a Lewis Hamilton or a
1669
01:26:08,125 --> 01:26:09,995
Michael Schumacher or a Fangio?
1670
01:26:10,125 --> 01:26:17,525
So if you look at it just between 1981 and
1986, how do we quantify who's the best?
1671
01:26:17,575 --> 01:26:20,495
I picked a question that was
going to provoke us talking.
1672
01:26:20,555 --> 01:26:24,035
I didn't necessarily pick a question
that I thought was something that
1673
01:26:24,055 --> 01:26:26,395
we could answer in a meaningful way.
1674
01:26:26,465 --> 01:26:29,185
I suppose I hedged my
bets already, didn't I?
1675
01:26:29,185 --> 01:26:32,235
I picked somebody who
errs if there's a line.
1676
01:26:32,450 --> 01:26:35,510
with crashing on this side and
being too slow on the other side.
1677
01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:39,920
I picked Arlene, who I feel
sits on the crashing too much
1678
01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:41,810
side, but just by a little bit.
1679
01:26:42,020 --> 01:26:46,450
And I'd pick Mikala, who I feel
sits on the slow side of the
1680
01:26:46,450 --> 01:26:48,280
line, but just by a little bit.
1681
01:26:48,280 --> 01:26:53,520
For me, the other people we've had, they
fall too far on one side or the other.
1682
01:26:53,560 --> 01:26:57,230
You don't think Michelle is most
iconic of the bunch, based on
1683
01:26:57,250 --> 01:26:58,980
all the other facts involved?
1684
01:26:59,210 --> 01:27:03,960
No, maybe that's because, for me,
it is that childhood imprint, right?
1685
01:27:04,010 --> 01:27:08,490
And am I thinking specifically
about that period, 81, 82 to 86?
1686
01:27:08,510 --> 01:27:09,190
Maybe I'm not.
1687
01:27:09,200 --> 01:27:12,010
Maybe I'm thinking about
the earlier period as well.
1688
01:27:12,010 --> 01:27:16,490
And maybe that's why Mickela and
Vartanen, uh, sort of loom large for me.
1689
01:27:16,670 --> 01:27:19,740
I do feel like, you know, you can
measure it in different ways, can't you?
1690
01:27:19,740 --> 01:27:22,690
You can look at the statistics and
say who won the most events, and
1691
01:27:22,690 --> 01:27:24,310
you can see who won the most points.
1692
01:27:24,310 --> 01:27:27,290
And you can also use these
satiric measures and say,
1693
01:27:27,290 --> 01:27:28,340
you know, you could just see.
1694
01:27:28,545 --> 01:27:32,495
By the way that Vartanen drives,
there's an artistry there,
1695
01:27:32,495 --> 01:27:34,915
which is a kind of greatness.
1696
01:27:35,295 --> 01:27:39,995
That work that I did around Senna
and the strange way that he's moved
1697
01:27:40,005 --> 01:27:43,275
to being considered the greatest of
all time in Formula One, whether or
1698
01:27:43,275 --> 01:27:46,854
not he really is, that sort of weird
beatification thing that I've done.
1699
01:27:47,085 --> 01:27:52,245
Talked about with Senna, the hard thought
coming out of that work is that maybe
1700
01:27:52,245 --> 01:27:57,965
greatness is about the way in which
you do things rather than what you do.
1701
01:27:58,045 --> 01:28:01,035
So it's not about whether you
win 50 million championships.
1702
01:28:01,085 --> 01:28:05,195
It's about whether you do it
with style and class and panache.
1703
01:28:05,355 --> 01:28:07,195
And then it's about what appeals, right?
1704
01:28:07,215 --> 01:28:10,355
So definitely Vatanen
appeals to me for that.
1705
01:28:10,925 --> 01:28:14,295
You know, in this presentation that
we've done tonight, I feel like
1706
01:28:14,295 --> 01:28:18,635
my passion for Arlen's method of
communication and the fact that he is
1707
01:28:18,635 --> 01:28:21,115
in just the right place for me, right?
1708
01:28:21,135 --> 01:28:25,385
As I say, if I was, he's the first
guy that I would want to sign.
1709
01:28:25,495 --> 01:28:27,115
Absolutely no question.
1710
01:28:27,345 --> 01:28:31,525
And I'd go for Vatanen afterwards as well,
because my thought would be, I've got two
1711
01:28:31,565 --> 01:28:33,595
cars, so one of them will probably finish.
1712
01:28:33,595 --> 01:28:33,875
Yeah.
1713
01:28:34,035 --> 01:28:36,635
I think if we played the pit stop
question game, where it's like, well,
1714
01:28:36,635 --> 01:28:38,095
who do you want to have a beer with?
1715
01:28:38,175 --> 01:28:41,635
It's sort of like, Alain,
Hannu Mikola, and Vatanen.
1716
01:28:41,655 --> 01:28:45,239
Those are the guys you want to sit down
at a pub and have a pint and drink.
1717
01:28:45,240 --> 01:28:48,570
Talk war stories about rally
because they're entertaining.
1718
01:28:48,580 --> 01:28:49,110
They're personal.
1719
01:28:49,980 --> 01:28:50,980
Oh, pond is yeah.
1720
01:28:50,980 --> 01:28:55,940
To love to have a beer with Tony
pond because he's so understated.
1721
01:28:55,940 --> 01:28:58,980
It would have to be a pub in
the Midlands, like a pub in
1722
01:28:58,980 --> 01:29:01,050
the Midlands in England, right?
1723
01:29:01,100 --> 01:29:04,630
It would have to be, I would
just want to meet him, you know,
1724
01:29:04,630 --> 01:29:06,690
because he died very young.
1725
01:29:07,790 --> 01:29:11,520
56 in 2002 pancreatic cancer.
1726
01:29:11,520 --> 01:29:12,170
My God.
1727
01:29:12,300 --> 01:29:14,620
So the problem is in period.
1728
01:29:14,850 --> 01:29:19,030
You can only go based on the time
sheets and the results and the rally
1729
01:29:19,030 --> 01:29:22,810
stage wins and the points and all that
kind of stuff to say, who is the best?
1730
01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:23,820
Was it Walter?
1731
01:29:23,830 --> 01:29:24,600
Was it Hanu?
1732
01:29:24,610 --> 01:29:26,230
Was it Marco, et cetera.
1733
01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:31,870
But 40 years later, when you look at it
under new eyes, this is the conclusion
1734
01:29:31,870 --> 01:29:35,420
that I came to when you talk about who
was the best, and it was very simple.
1735
01:29:35,560 --> 01:29:38,580
If we just stay within the
confines and the parameters
1736
01:29:38,610 --> 01:29:41,730
of Lancia, Peugeot, and Audi.
1737
01:29:42,000 --> 01:29:43,490
Launcher doesn't exist anymore.
1738
01:29:43,770 --> 01:29:45,970
Stellantis has no plans.
1739
01:29:46,020 --> 01:29:48,910
They've teased, you know,
the Epsilon might be coming.
1740
01:29:49,140 --> 01:29:54,730
There's some tribute cars out there,
like singer style, Delta HFs and O37s
1741
01:29:54,730 --> 01:29:56,750
and Stratos's and things like that,
that have been developed at the factory.
1742
01:29:56,940 --> 01:29:58,770
Launcher doesn't really exist.
1743
01:29:58,870 --> 01:29:59,630
So they're gone.
1744
01:30:00,035 --> 01:30:01,235
Peugeot Sport.
1745
01:30:01,235 --> 01:30:03,485
No, it's gone.
1746
01:30:03,755 --> 01:30:07,795
I read that they closed it a couple
of years ago, the original place on
1747
01:30:07,795 --> 01:30:09,915
the road out of Paris, South of Paris.
1748
01:30:09,915 --> 01:30:16,575
That they're sort of still around only
in LMP one GTP now in WEC, the world
1749
01:30:16,575 --> 01:30:20,155
endurance championship with the Peugeot
nine X eight, you could say Peugeot
1750
01:30:20,155 --> 01:30:23,335
sport is still around their branded
as Peugeot sport, you know, but it's
1751
01:30:23,335 --> 01:30:27,335
different, it's not the Peugeot sport of
John Todd of the eighties and all that.
1752
01:30:27,980 --> 01:30:31,350
One could say Lancia doesn't
exist as a brand, Peugeot is still
1753
01:30:31,350 --> 01:30:34,000
around making cars, they make
some really interesting stuff.
1754
01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:37,500
I'd love to drive some of the new 208s
and some of those cars that I've seen
1755
01:30:37,500 --> 01:30:39,070
even last year when I was in Europe.
1756
01:30:39,140 --> 01:30:41,560
But on the racing scene, not so much.
1757
01:30:41,670 --> 01:30:45,370
They did a couple of things
in the past with Le Mans.
1758
01:30:45,390 --> 01:30:49,660
They've done Formula 1, if you
think about Jordan Peugeot based.
1759
01:30:49,680 --> 01:30:50,620
So that's great.
1760
01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:51,850
And then Audi.
1761
01:30:52,385 --> 01:30:56,295
Audi has come well beyond
anybody's expectations.
1762
01:30:56,295 --> 01:31:02,615
If you think about Audi in 1980, when
it approaches rally with a new car and a
1763
01:31:02,615 --> 01:31:08,155
new technology and a team of all stars,
but really an underdog and unknown Roland
1764
01:31:08,165 --> 01:31:12,594
Gumpert, who's this guy, the head of
Audi development, what, who Audi, what?
1765
01:31:12,595 --> 01:31:13,485
You think about it.
1766
01:31:13,865 --> 01:31:16,615
Audi went, proved what
they needed to prove.
1767
01:31:16,765 --> 01:31:18,515
And this is a very German thing, right?
1768
01:31:18,545 --> 01:31:19,885
We've done what we needed to do.
1769
01:31:20,075 --> 01:31:20,835
Now we move on.
1770
01:31:20,845 --> 01:31:23,095
They go to Trans Am and they
kick butt and they get banned.
1771
01:31:23,235 --> 01:31:25,535
Then they go to DTM and they
kick butt and they get banned.
1772
01:31:25,675 --> 01:31:27,755
They go to IMSA and they kick
butt and they get banned.
1773
01:31:27,915 --> 01:31:30,095
Then they end up in ALMS forever.
1774
01:31:30,215 --> 01:31:31,355
They end up winning at Le Mans.
1775
01:31:31,595 --> 01:31:34,315
And now next year they're
going to be in Formula One.
1776
01:31:34,555 --> 01:31:38,305
So if you think about it from
that perspective, who's the best?
1777
01:31:38,455 --> 01:31:39,405
It's still Audi.
1778
01:31:39,695 --> 01:31:43,535
And people like Walter Rural and Michelle
Mouton who are still with us are still
1779
01:31:43,535 --> 01:31:49,215
associated with the brand that to me
and I'm trying to put my bias aside, but
1780
01:31:49,345 --> 01:31:51,955
they've proven themselves to be the best.
1781
01:31:52,125 --> 01:31:56,375
And I think they will continue in any
discipline that they apply themselves.
1782
01:31:56,530 --> 01:32:00,260
But they have to realize that
their roots came from WRC.
1783
01:32:00,450 --> 01:32:02,010
That's an interesting perspective, Eric.
1784
01:32:02,120 --> 01:32:03,070
I'm not sure if I agree.
1785
01:32:03,070 --> 01:32:05,730
I, I still feel like you
have to look at it from the
1786
01:32:05,730 --> 01:32:07,800
perspective of the period itself.
1787
01:32:07,920 --> 01:32:11,040
And in that period, you
have to pick the Lancia.
1788
01:32:11,150 --> 01:32:12,710
It's the most technologically advanced.
1789
01:32:12,810 --> 01:32:17,250
Just to bring this full circle for
those that are maybe now Googling
1790
01:32:17,260 --> 01:32:18,860
Group B, learning more about it.
1791
01:32:18,890 --> 01:32:20,660
Maybe you knew something about it before.
1792
01:32:20,660 --> 01:32:22,190
Maybe you've learned something from this.
1793
01:32:22,395 --> 01:32:28,275
I want to let people know that group
B did continue after it was disbanded.
1794
01:32:28,275 --> 01:32:31,305
So there's a couple things that we have
to myth bust here at the tail end of this.
1795
01:32:31,315 --> 01:32:34,275
So Toivonen's death was the turning point.
1796
01:32:34,285 --> 01:32:37,125
That's when Balestra said
it's time to pump the brakes.
1797
01:32:37,205 --> 01:32:39,205
The space race is over.
1798
01:32:39,235 --> 01:32:41,735
We're not doing this unlimited
horsepower thing anymore.
1799
01:32:41,735 --> 01:32:44,205
We're not letting you do evolution
cars, all this kind of stuff.
1800
01:32:44,215 --> 01:32:47,335
He did a complete 180 on
group B and he shut it down.
1801
01:32:47,465 --> 01:32:48,875
What people don't realize is.
1802
01:32:49,100 --> 01:32:54,390
Audi had already pulled out basically the
tail end of the season before, because
1803
01:32:54,420 --> 01:32:58,140
of a death that had occurred at Portugal.
1804
01:32:58,380 --> 01:33:00,640
And they were like, this is getting crazy.
1805
01:33:00,670 --> 01:33:04,110
Crowd control is an issue, which
begs the question, if we had better
1806
01:33:04,110 --> 01:33:07,070
crowd control, would the rally
stage times have been faster?
1807
01:33:07,170 --> 01:33:10,460
Because the drivers had to really
compensate for people in the middle
1808
01:33:10,460 --> 01:33:12,390
of the road and the journalists
and all this kind of thing.
1809
01:33:12,645 --> 01:33:16,395
There were other deaths before that point,
you know, they call the Group B years
1810
01:33:16,405 --> 01:33:18,465
also the killer years in motorsport.
1811
01:33:18,515 --> 01:33:22,875
And so, Toivonen's death is that
moment in which Group B died.
1812
01:33:22,925 --> 01:33:28,345
But, it got two extra years everywhere
else around the world because of special
1813
01:33:28,345 --> 01:33:32,305
events like Perry Dakar, Pike's Peak
Hill Climb, where Group B cars were
1814
01:33:32,305 --> 01:33:38,385
still used in official events, but
they weren't sanctioned WRC Group B
1815
01:33:38,405 --> 01:33:40,175
class events, those kinds of things.
1816
01:33:40,510 --> 01:33:44,510
Group B, like I said before, was
disbanded and replaced by Group A.
1817
01:33:44,640 --> 01:33:47,140
And that's where the Delta HF
Integrale comes on the scene.
1818
01:33:47,140 --> 01:33:50,200
This is where you start to
see Mitsubishi coming to play.
1819
01:33:50,280 --> 01:33:51,600
And of course, the Subies.
1820
01:33:51,610 --> 01:33:52,850
That's the Exactly.
1821
01:33:53,000 --> 01:33:55,490
Subaru is making a bigger splash.
1822
01:33:55,550 --> 01:33:57,680
The Celica GT4.
1823
01:33:57,730 --> 01:33:58,360
That's right.
1824
01:33:58,370 --> 01:34:00,870
That's the other car that
the young'uns like now.
1825
01:34:01,430 --> 01:34:06,370
Real rally pedigree and that's a whole
new generation of rally fans coming
1826
01:34:06,370 --> 01:34:12,050
into the 90s into the early 2000s the
lower horsepower cars to this day even
1827
01:34:12,050 --> 01:34:17,000
the current WRC cars with their hybrid
systems on their tricky bits and all
1828
01:34:17,000 --> 01:34:21,320
the stuff that they have going on are
not as powerful and Has been proven.
1829
01:34:21,330 --> 01:34:24,710
They're not as fast As the
group B cars, the group B cars
1830
01:34:24,790 --> 01:34:28,060
are the monsters of rally.
1831
01:34:28,060 --> 01:34:30,040
And they always will be
never to be repeated again.
1832
01:34:30,100 --> 01:34:33,610
I think it's like in the rule book
at FIA that nothing like it will
1833
01:34:33,610 --> 01:34:37,140
ever happen again, you know, because
of everything that went down and
1834
01:34:37,140 --> 01:34:38,140
Toyvan and his death and all that.
1835
01:34:38,985 --> 01:34:44,525
So for those of you listening to this and
listening to us pontificate about group B
1836
01:34:44,555 --> 01:34:48,685
for so long now, it's one of those things
that if you're not familiar with it,
1837
01:34:48,775 --> 01:34:50,925
you will suddenly become addicted to it.
1838
01:34:51,045 --> 01:34:52,695
And then follow rally.
1839
01:34:52,735 --> 01:34:53,935
It's really interesting.
1840
01:34:53,935 --> 01:34:57,975
And I try to remind people all the
time, you don't have to buy WRC plus.
1841
01:34:58,265 --> 01:35:01,495
Although it's awesome to go back just
like Formula 1 subscription service.
1842
01:35:01,495 --> 01:35:04,705
You can go back and watch all the old
footage and all the old rallies, which
1843
01:35:04,705 --> 01:35:08,695
is really cool because rally, there's
a lot of it captured in the 80s.
1844
01:35:08,735 --> 01:35:13,165
They had amazing footage considering
how long a rally stage is and how
1845
01:35:13,165 --> 01:35:14,555
complicated they are and things like that.
1846
01:35:14,625 --> 01:35:17,455
But today you can watch
Red Bull's coverage.
1847
01:35:17,620 --> 01:35:20,450
Of WRC on the Red Bull app for free.
1848
01:35:20,450 --> 01:35:21,700
And I highly recommend people do that.
1849
01:35:21,700 --> 01:35:22,760
You can jump into the cars.
1850
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:26,180
You can watch Terry Neuville live,
Oitanic, Esa Pekka Lappi, all the
1851
01:35:26,220 --> 01:35:30,820
current drivers and the hilarity
of rally hasn't changed the danger.
1852
01:35:30,950 --> 01:35:34,580
It's the riskiest, if not the
riskiest, one of the riskiest
1853
01:35:34,580 --> 01:35:35,760
motor sports out there.
1854
01:35:35,980 --> 01:35:38,150
But their car control is second to none.
1855
01:35:38,150 --> 01:35:42,300
Now, granted, they're two pedal cars,
they're ruddering, hybrids and hydraulic
1856
01:35:42,310 --> 01:35:44,240
this and flappy paddle that and all that.
1857
01:35:44,250 --> 01:35:48,400
And it's not, it doesn't have the same
appeal, let's say, as Group B does.
1858
01:35:48,410 --> 01:35:50,920
But go back and check out Group B footage.
1859
01:35:50,920 --> 01:35:52,350
It's all over YouTube.
1860
01:35:52,360 --> 01:35:54,200
Group A footage for that matter.
1861
01:35:54,350 --> 01:35:55,610
It'll get you excited.
1862
01:35:55,990 --> 01:36:00,100
And I wish there was a drive to survive
sort of thing for Rally because I think
1863
01:36:00,100 --> 01:36:02,000
more people would be interested in it.
1864
01:36:02,040 --> 01:36:04,710
And you get to see some
of the most unique.
1865
01:36:04,975 --> 01:36:07,815
Biomes and the planet by watching rally.
1866
01:36:07,815 --> 01:36:08,615
You don't get that.
1867
01:36:08,615 --> 01:36:08,765
Yeah.
1868
01:36:08,765 --> 01:36:11,005
Formula one, you're like, Oh yeah,
they go to Singapore and they go to
1869
01:36:11,015 --> 01:36:15,495
Austin and they go to Australia, but
it's on a paved circuit in rally.
1870
01:36:15,495 --> 01:36:17,245
You never know what's going to happen.
1871
01:36:17,255 --> 01:36:18,655
The weather is constantly changing.
1872
01:36:18,655 --> 01:36:19,605
Sometimes it's at night.
1873
01:36:19,605 --> 01:36:21,905
Sometimes it's a day,
something torrential downpour.
1874
01:36:22,005 --> 01:36:23,605
You never know what you're going to get.
1875
01:36:24,070 --> 01:36:28,500
Ah, well, thank you for that insight
into, uh, into Modern Rally there, Eric.
1876
01:36:28,510 --> 01:36:30,780
That's, uh, that's really useful for me.
1877
01:36:30,960 --> 01:36:33,430
We've come to the end
of the agenda here now.
1878
01:36:33,500 --> 01:36:37,560
So I feel like I have more than enough
material, not just create a pod here, but
1879
01:36:37,570 --> 01:36:40,870
also to create something for the IMRRC.
1880
01:36:40,980 --> 01:36:45,110
I always jump at the opportunity to
do a crossover episode with you, John.
1881
01:36:45,230 --> 01:36:46,110
Thank you very much, Eric.
1882
01:36:46,180 --> 01:36:46,630
Good stuff.
1883
01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:48,550
Well, anyway, I look forward to seeing.
1884
01:36:48,700 --> 01:36:51,690
What you come up with
for the, uh, symposium.
1885
01:36:51,690 --> 01:36:54,730
So I want to know how you're
going to boil all this down.
1886
01:36:54,820 --> 01:36:55,030
Yeah.
1887
01:36:55,030 --> 01:36:57,000
Well, I want to know I'm
going to do it as well.
1888
01:36:57,140 --> 01:37:00,930
And yeah, I'm going to really get on the
case and do this sooner rather than later,
1889
01:37:01,020 --> 01:37:02,490
because I'm just not going to have time.
1890
01:37:02,500 --> 01:37:02,900
Otherwise.
1891
01:38:10,120 --> 01:38:13,540
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1892
01:38:13,540 --> 01:38:15,210
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01:38:15,390 --> 01:38:19,220
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1894
01:38:19,220 --> 01:38:22,910
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1897
01:38:28,010 --> 01:38:32,820
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01:38:32,870 --> 01:38:33,930
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1900
01:38:36,580 --> 01:38:39,880
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1901
01:38:39,880 --> 01:38:41,760
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1902
01:38:41,915 --> 01:38:44,415
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1903
01:38:44,525 --> 01:38:48,035
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1904
01:38:48,035 --> 01:38:52,115
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