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Hello and welcome to Branching Out, a Tree Fork Strategies podcast.
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I'm Elizabeth Shea, the founder and CEO, and I created this show to help business owners navigate the ins and outs of an exit event.
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So each episode, I sit down with seasoned founders and CEOs who have successfully sold their companies through a strategic or financial transaction.
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Together we discuss what went into their decision to sell, what worked, what they would do differently, and the valuable lessons that they would like to pass along to founders with a sale on the horizon.
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Our goal is simple to provide a playbook that you can use as you approach your own sale with confidence and clarity, knowing that you're not alone in the process.
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This is Branching Out.
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Thank you for joining me.
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Well, welcome to Branching Out.
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Thank you for joining us today.
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Um, we have in our studio today Sarah Evans.
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Nice to see you, Sarah.
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It's wonderful to be here.
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Thank you, Elizabeth.
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Thank you.
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So I'm really excited to hear Sarah's story today because I met her um just a couple of months ago at an event where she spoke at the Exit Planning Institute.
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There's a new DC chapter in town.
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And she spoke on the topic of how to prepare the human side for business transition.
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And she comes to us as an industrial and organizational psychologist, so we can dissect what that looks like, and has been working with a lot of organizations from succession planning and again the human side of either a founder or their team making a transition.
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So thank you for joining us today, Sarah.
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I'm excited to hear your story.
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Thank you for having me again.
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Yeah, it's great to be here.
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Okay, so let's let's start from the beginning.
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Tell me how you got into this business because as I understand it, you worked for Fortune 500 companies.
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You've also worked for small businesses, and now you have your own company, Sarah G Consulting.
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Sarah G.
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Evans Consulting.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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So it's kind of a long story.
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I feel like the story, though, of how I got here is as important as where I am.
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And I often, in working with people, that's the part I find fascinating in and of itself, is that what we become is such a mix of where we've been.
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So I started my career in public relations.
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Um I worked in Boston.
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Um and uh from there, and and mind you, I uh was working in uh 2000 for a consumer technology team.
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We served all consumer technology clients and got laid off from that job because there was a big blow up in that field.
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Uh so navigated that, then went in-house to a medical device company where I became the spokesperson.
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Uh, somebody who I worked in the agency with uh introduced me to her client and I worked there for two years.
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I wrote the press release for my own layoff.
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So half the company was laid off.
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I didn't realize I was part of it.
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I got laid off.
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And I often say those are two of the best things that could have happened to me.
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I think they really helped me learn how to be resilient, but also learn how to network and learn how to build relationships.
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And from there, I did a lot of independent consulting and it kind of I got the entrepreneurial bug.
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That's where that sort of respect for the entrepreneur came in and the grit.
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And then I moved to the Washington, D.C.
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metro area.
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I got a job working in the career office of University of Maryland's business school, which is the Smith School.
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And um I really caught the coaching bug.
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So working with students, helping them sell themselves.
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I actually sat on the admissions board to help the school get their rankings up.
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I really wanted to better understand who we were selecting and make sure the right people were coming in so that the experience could be the right one for them.
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And at the end, they had good things to say, and employers had good things to say, and the rankings would follow.
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So I was there for a great while, probably about eight years, um, and ultimately decided I love the people side of business.
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So I was in a business school working with people, and I realized that in order to convince decision makers to invest in the people side of a business, you need facts, you need data, you need quantifiable metrics, but you need to be able to use them in a way that people understand them and will make decisions.
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And that's exactly why I went into industrial and organizational psychology.
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Biopsychology, as it's uh often referred to, is the science of people in the workplace, really looking at what factors contribute to success, satisfaction in the workplace.
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And so you've got your I, the IO, you've got your I, which is industrial, which is all the research, the psychology, the business side, all of the sort of really in-depth research that goes into understanding people in business.
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And the O, the organizational side, which I gravitated to, uh, I think I've always been more on that O side, which is how it's applied.
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How do you go into a workplace and use those data points with live humans to influence their decisions and to really make an impact in a way that people can get behind because you have the data to show that there are results associated with human action?
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Um, and so I worked for a couple of HR risk management.
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I worked for an HR risk management firm.
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And then ultimately I also worked for a management consulting firm doing a lot of organizational development, change management work, largely for the federal government.
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And also did some communications work, did a lot of different kinds of work, and landed what was really my dream job, working for Marriott International in a change management role, working for global change management through HR.
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And lo and behold, about a year later, Marriott acquired the Starwood brand of hotels, which many would say would be the largest change that Marriott encountered in its history and was able to lead a number of global change management initiatives around HR systems and really helping properties from the Starwood brand of hotels.
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So your Westons, your St.
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Regis, your Sheratons, migrate over to the Marriott way.
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And then I moved to an organizational design team where I led REOX of sales, marketing, and revenue management teams in the Americas, for Marriott International, and then ultimately led succession planning for Marriott's chief sales and marketing officer in the Americas.
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And that I would say was such an eye-opening experience working with these C-suite leaders for Marriott International who were, in some cases, they didn't have people to speak with and help them navigate all of these changes and these decisions.
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And so Marriott put me through certified coach training.
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And that was an added tool for me that has really informed where I am now.
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And in, let's see, so then in uh I led succession planning in 2019 in Toronto.
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And in 2020, we all know what happened.
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COVID hit.
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Yeah.
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I ended up on furlough.
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And while I was waiting for to be invited to come back to work uh after watching about a month of Netflix, I decided that I was, I thought I'd always wanted to start my own business.
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And I thought, well, maybe I'll just hire a business coach to help me do that and put my shingle out there and see what happened while I was waiting to go back to work and ended up getting a few clients and loving it.
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And thought, huh, I think this is my time.
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And I took a buyout.
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Marriott offered managers a buyout for anyone who was willing to take it.
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And so when it was my time to come back to work, I said, I'm gonna take a buyout and the rest is history.
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And we started this business.
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Congratulations.
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That is a great story.
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That is a great story.
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So tell me the focus of your organization today, of your company.
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I mean, I know at the event you talked quite a bit about the founder dependency and trying to create succession plans, things like that.
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Where do you most focus your efforts?
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What do you find that's most important for your clients?
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So I'd say I have three main clients.
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I have clients who are experienced professionals, often leaders, navigating career transitions.
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So it could be navigating the sale, sort of going from being the CEO of my business to something else after I sell, right?
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It could be I'm an executive somewhere and I'm doing fine by, you know, monetary standards or even in my business, they say I do great work, but I'm just not motivated.
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It's stressful, I'm overwhelmed, the work-life balance doesn't work for me.
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Whatever.
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I also work with business owners and their teams.
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So looking at do they have the right teams, make sure they have the right uh roles in place, and also make sure they have the right people in those roles.
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That often applies to businesses looking ahead to when they want to sell, but also how they want to operate, making sure that they have the, I like to say, the right butts and the right seats.
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And also working with high potential leaders to help them grow.
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So oftentimes a leader will reach out to me and say, I have this leader who is amazing and wonderful and I see as a future mainstay in my company.
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But they could use help with this one area or they're looking to grow in this area.
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Can you work with them directly?
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And then the third group is the sort of larger organizations like Amarriad, who bring me in to do change management, help them with larger initiatives, redesign, communication, succession planning, larger scale initiatives.
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So I work with the very small business and the business owner just one-on-one.
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And I also can can go larger than that and work with teams and groups.
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Well, that's great.
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So we've had a lot of people on our podcast, a lot of guests who talked about the transition post-acquisition and how it was difficult for them.
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And many of them are surprised by that.
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Has that been your experience when you work with clients and they go through a transaction or a transition of some sort?
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What's been your experience?
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So I wish I got to people earlier.
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Oftentimes, like I think Pricewater HouseCoopers did a study, and the Exit Planning Institute also validated these results through their research that I think it was 75% of owners who sell regret their sale a year after they sell.
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I've had owners call me crying from their beautiful backyards at their beautiful vacation homes.
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They got everything they wanted or they thought they wanted and they're miserable.
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And it's very sad.
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Um, loss of identity, loss of purpose.
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Uh, some of them feel guilty that they left their teams and they loved their people and it got acquired by a company that's not treating them well or doing their own rework.
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And in some cases, they just didn't foresee the importance of thinking about themselves and where they would go and where they would fit.
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They were so focused on selling and getting the money that they overlooked and undervalued the importance of finding their place in the world after.
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And so I think to answer your question, I am fortunate enough to have some clients who have reached out to me while they're planning.
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So five to eight years before they want to sell or exit, getting in touch with me.
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Often they get in touch with me to make sure their org is in a good place, right?
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Help me with the human capital stuff.
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Help me make sure that I can exit and my business can run without me, which is a very important factor when it comes to how businesses are valued.
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But I often help them very gradually think about themselves.
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So what is your plan after?
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Here's why it matters.
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Let's start thinking about both the legacy you want to leave, but also what you're leaning into.
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Mm-hmm.
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And do you find that the people are receptive that the people that you're talking to, is it, oh, well, they figure that out later?
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Or is it more along the lines of, well, I never really thought about that?
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What do you extract from them that helps them to understand that this is a challenge?
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Yeah.
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I think there's a little of everything.
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Some people seem to get it almost automatically.
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Maybe they'd be the 15% anyway that sells and has already thought about it, right?
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Because they've reached out to me.
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I have partners, my finance partners, who will know that this is a very critical component.
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And so they'll have encouraged their client to get in touch with me.
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And maybe they need a little convincing, like, why is this important?
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I'm not really sure, but I'll play along.
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And then they get to a point where they are are glad they did.
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They'll say, Yeah, I have a friend.
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Oftentimes the people who are open to it say, Yeah, I have a friend who sold and got a divorce after.
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And it was like a whole crisis that they went through because they hadn't planned for this.
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And then there are those who don't necessarily feel it's on their radar, and they ask me, All right, so I'm willing to consider it.
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So how you asked, how do I get them there?
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Um tactfully, slowly, and asking them questions.
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You can bring a horse to water, you can't make it drink.
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So I'm not gonna tell somebody something.
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I'm gonna help them explore what they need to explore at the same time that I'm helping them accomplish whatever goal they hired me for.
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So help them think about their people and also ask them questions about what their life will look like after, how they'll know they made the right decision, who the supporting actors will be in their life, and and how much money they need to save and account for is also very important.
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And so these go hand in hand, right?
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Like a financial planner also needs to know how much money do you want to have after the sale to support your lifestyle?
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They have to know what their lifestyle is, right?
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So oftentimes I'll partner with a financial planner on stuff to really flesh out okay, what is your life gonna look like?
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What brings you satisfaction?
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What role do you want to play in your business?
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Some people want to stay tethered.
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They want either to have a role in the business, to be an outside consultant for a period of time.
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And so helping them think through how they want to sell it or or how they want to transition it and what role they want to play naturally starts to lead into who they will be afterward.
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Uh, so it's it's a gradual process.
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I don't like pushing anybody into any conversation they can't feel comfortable with or envision for themselves.
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So it's a process.
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Sure.
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Well, I imagine it's based on a lot of trusts established over time and probing the right kind of questions because I do know that a lot of the people that have been on our on our show um talked about specifically the the fact that, yeah, no one prepared me for that.
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But I figured I'd be fine.
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And so it it is a challenge.
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And so I imagine that if you start early with someone like yourself, then you can have the opportunity to to build that trust and be able to have a s a safe place to talk and communicate.
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Because it sort of feels like a soft thing to think about, but it's really very important because it's the human side of it.
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It does, and and it's interesting.
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I mean, if there's not a perfect, like everyone has a perfect plan and a perfect vision, and they leave with a package and they say goodbye to me and they sail off into the sunset and everything's perfect.
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I think a lot of times I get people to a place where we know each other well and they've uh prepared themselves and they've researched and they feel like they are in control of what's next.
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And some of my clients continue to work with me after they make the transition to, you know, flesh out any pieces because life changes, right?
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Unexpected things happen, but they feel prepared, they feel in the driver's seat and they can navigate what's next confidently and in a place where they feel empowered versus feeling like the rug has been ripped out from under them and they're just kind of sitting there looking into the the beautiful sunset of Greece or wherever they are that they're supposed to be so happy and they're not.
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It's an awful feeling.
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Oh, exactly.
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It really is.
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Um, has anybody ever come to you post-transaction when they're in that state looking for support or help or questions for how to navigate their their life afterwards?
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Yes, yes.
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And I can help them.
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I can help them.
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I I feel sad for them because there's a trauma associated with my whole life revolved around this baby that I built.
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Right.
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And and I thought I controlled for everything.
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And it's not exactly what I expected.
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Um, there's one client I just remember, he was sitting in his backyard and feeling like, oh my gosh, what now?
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He said, like, I'm a nothing now.
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I'm a nobody.
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I'm a nobody with a lot of money.
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I don't know what to do with myself.
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And we really thought about it together.
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And he had a lot of transferable skills.
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And there were a lot of things he could do.
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But it was helpful, I think, for him to have me there to challenge him.
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Have you considered doing this?
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What would it look like to try to be a member of this board or do some community service?
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Like to really ask the question like what motivates you?
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Some people don't want to do that.
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Some people like working with children, some people like working out in nature.
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I had one gentleman who wanted to actually get a job.
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Yeah.
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That can happen.
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That can happen, certainly.
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I mean, I know that I went through that when I sold my company.
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It was definitely a transition that I had not anticipated.
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And I didn't know you then.
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So I wish I had.
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I really wish I had.
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Yeah, but I know.
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And I through EPI, to be honest with you, I think I've told you this.
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I've discovered that there's this whole market of people who don't know I exist.
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And how would they know, right?
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Like they don't see the statistic about people selling.
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They reach out to the logical mentors, the logical advisors who do their best.
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And they don't realize that their own, I'm not going to call it mental health.
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It's not, this is not therapy.
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This is not necessarily all about mental health.
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:13.200
This is about strategic preparation for your career beyond the sale of your business.
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:22.400
Because when you've gone at 150 miles an hour and when you're an overachiever in a type A, which many of us, I say us, I'm in there too, are.
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:29.839
And so much of our self-worth is aligned with building something and selling something.
00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:31.440
And then we just stop.
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:37.519
It is very much, it is against who we are as people.
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:45.440
And then we start driving people around us nuts, also, uh, which I've seen in men and women alike do to their spouses, their children, their grandchildren.
00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:49.920
We need other places to use our brain and exhort our energy.
00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:51.599
Isn't that the truth?
00:19:51.759 --> 00:20:00.240
I mean, it sort of um harkens back to the days when they said someone will retire and they want to play golf all day, and then the the spouse is saying, go back to work, do something.
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:01.759
You know, we're driving me crazy.
00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:02.880
That's so true.
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:08.640
Um Yeah, you've just displaced my retirement plan with your retirement plan, right?
00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:09.440
Yeah.
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:10.319
Exactly.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:11.920
Uh well, those are great stories.
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:14.240
This is super informative and helpful.
00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:16.000
I really appreciate all your insight.
00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:26.640
Any other any other stories that you'd like to share that might help some of our listeners who are typically people that are looking to exit within the next few years, other than to make sure that they give you a call?
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:31.279
Yeah, there is somebody I worked with and he owned a business with his brothers.
00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:45.359
So I work with a lot of family-owned businesses, whether it's transition, you know, the father or the parents are they want less of a role and they're handing it over to children or other relatives, husband and wife teams.
00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:47.599
I work with a lot of husband-wife teams.
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:52.400
You know, there's this assumption that if we life well together, we should be able to work well together.
00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:59.440
And often a third-party to just sort of identify roles, responsibilities, expectations can be helpful.
00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:11.759
I worked with a client and he is the youngest of three brothers that inherited their parents' business, ran it very successfully for many years, and then decided to sell.
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:13.759
And he reached out to me.
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:15.119
He was very aware.
00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:16.960
Again, there are some people that are just very aware.
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:28.319
He said, I need to figure out what my next move is because I'm very aware that I will not, it will not be good for me to be sitting there looking out into space.
00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:31.440
I'd like to have a plan and a transition for myself.
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:41.200
And we work together to really think about who he is, the value he brought to the business and what motivates him.
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:47.119
And a lot of people don't think about or recognize what motivates them.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:54.960
And I think that, you know, recognizing what motivates you is different than recognizing what you like to do.
00:21:58.000 --> 00:21:58.240
Right?
00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:06.799
Like he said, uh, I love to play basketball and I love golf and I love being with my family and all this, but what motivates me is operations.
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:09.759
I love solving problems.
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:10.079
No.
00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:10.799
Right.
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:16.480
And I can't do that by going to the beach with my family necessarily, or at least they don't want me to be that.
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:20.000
I I can't be that role, you know, in my regular life all the time.
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:24.000
And so he concluded through our work together that he wanted to start his own business.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:30.240
But it took him a while to, like his own personal business doing operations.
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:38.319
So he goes in and helps companies that want to outsource a lot of the, you know, in the weeds work, right?
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:41.599
Um, developing process procedures, et cetera.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:23:02.960
It took him a little while to realize that he could do this on his own and that it was worth doing and what it would take and why that motivated him and how he could fit that into the life of a retired person who also goes to the beach and also makes time for himself because he hadn't done that in his previous job.
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:17.519
So, how to be both healthy and productive and hold himself accountable, I found that to be a very personally satisfying client to work with.
00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:20.880
He was very self-aware, but he was also very aware of what he wasn't aware of.
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:21.920
Right, right.
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:23.119
That's a great story.
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:24.240
That is an amazing story.
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:25.839
And did they end up selling in the end?
00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:27.359
And they did.
00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:28.240
That's amazing.
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:28.960
They did.
00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:33.039
And what's fascinating is I have since heard that there were a lot of issues.
00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:36.160
A lot of the people that he really cared about got laid off.
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:38.480
They came in, they changed things around.
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:42.480
But he was very much aware of what he could and could not control.
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:46.000
And he was able to sort of say, let them, right?
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:47.279
I can't control that.
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:49.599
And I have all this stuff now.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:56.079
And and make peace with that chapter in a way that I think served him.
00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:59.039
Um yeah, that's a great story.
00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:00.559
How can people get a hold of you?
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:03.279
What's the best way of people for people to reach out?
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:05.440
Yeah, email is great.
00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:10.160
Sarah at SGE-careers.com is one way.
00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:12.799
Yeah.
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:15.599
Um, I I think that's probably the best way.
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:20.400
On my website, there's a place for people to say request a free consultation.
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:23.359
So uh my website's always a good way.
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:27.599
I'm actually putting together a new website, which we'll be launching soon.
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:28.720
So I'm excited about that.
00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:30.160
Same address so you'll have that.
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:39.599
And uh yeah, I mean, people can always call me too, but I think email or through my website is is uh the people will get a response quickly and they can see what I'm about.
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:48.799
Well, you were fascinating to listen to at the EPI event, and I do encourage any of our listeners to look for their local chapter of the Exit Planning Institute.
00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:52.319
And I look forward to seeing you in the next couple of meetings, miss the next couple of events.
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:53.519
Thank you so much, Sarah.
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:54.640
I really appreciate it.
00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:55.440
Thank you.
00:24:55.519 --> 00:24:56.720
It's been my pleasure.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:57.519
Okay.
00:24:58.160 --> 00:24:58.960
Bye bye.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.759
Hello and welcome to Branching Out, a Tree Fork Strategies podcast.
00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:10.800
I'm Elizabeth Shea, the founder and CEO, and I created this show to help business owners navigate the ins and outs of an exit event.
00:00:11.039 --> 00:00:19.120
So each episode, I sit down with seasoned founders and CEOs who have successfully sold their companies through a strategic or financial transaction.
00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:29.039
Together we discuss what went into their decision to sell, what worked, what they would do differently, and the valuable lessons that they would like to pass along to founders with a sale on the horizon.
00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:37.119
Our goal is simple to provide a playbook that you can use as you approach your own sale with confidence and clarity, knowing that you're not alone in the process.
00:00:37.359 --> 00:00:38.560
This is Branching Out.
00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:40.159
Thank you for joining me.
00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:45.119
Well, welcome to Branching Out.
00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:46.799
Thank you for joining us today.
00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:49.439
Um, we have in our studio today Sarah Evans.
00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:50.880
Nice to see you, Sarah.
00:00:51.359 --> 00:00:52.640
It's wonderful to be here.
00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:53.520
Thank you, Elizabeth.
00:00:53.840 --> 00:00:54.079
Thank you.
00:00:54.399 --> 00:01:02.240
So I'm really excited to hear Sarah's story today because I met her um just a couple of months ago at an event where she spoke at the Exit Planning Institute.
00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:04.319
There's a new DC chapter in town.
00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:10.000
And she spoke on the topic of how to prepare the human side for business transition.
00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:23.519
And she comes to us as an industrial and organizational psychologist, so we can dissect what that looks like, and has been working with a lot of organizations from succession planning and again the human side of either a founder or their team making a transition.
00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:25.439
So thank you for joining us today, Sarah.
00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:26.959
I'm excited to hear your story.
00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:28.719
Thank you for having me again.
00:01:28.879 --> 00:01:30.400
Yeah, it's great to be here.
00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:32.560
Okay, so let's let's start from the beginning.
00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:36.799
Tell me how you got into this business because as I understand it, you worked for Fortune 500 companies.
00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:41.120
You've also worked for small businesses, and now you have your own company, Sarah G Consulting.
00:01:41.280 --> 00:01:41.840
Sarah G.
00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:42.799
Evans Consulting.
00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:43.439
Yes.
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Yes.
00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:46.239
So it's kind of a long story.
00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:51.040
I feel like the story, though, of how I got here is as important as where I am.
00:01:51.200 --> 00:02:01.680
And I often, in working with people, that's the part I find fascinating in and of itself, is that what we become is such a mix of where we've been.
00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:05.519
So I started my career in public relations.
00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:08.960
Um I worked in Boston.
00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:20.159
Um and uh from there, and and mind you, I uh was working in uh 2000 for a consumer technology team.
00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:27.439
We served all consumer technology clients and got laid off from that job because there was a big blow up in that field.
00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:34.400
Uh so navigated that, then went in-house to a medical device company where I became the spokesperson.
00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:40.479
Uh, somebody who I worked in the agency with uh introduced me to her client and I worked there for two years.
00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:43.120
I wrote the press release for my own layoff.
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So half the company was laid off.
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I didn't realize I was part of it.
00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:47.680
I got laid off.
00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:51.520
And I often say those are two of the best things that could have happened to me.
00:02:51.599 --> 00:03:00.000
I think they really helped me learn how to be resilient, but also learn how to network and learn how to build relationships.
00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:05.120
And from there, I did a lot of independent consulting and it kind of I got the entrepreneurial bug.
00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:09.919
That's where that sort of respect for the entrepreneur came in and the grit.
00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:13.599
And then I moved to the Washington, D.C.
00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:14.400
metro area.
00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:21.759
I got a job working in the career office of University of Maryland's business school, which is the Smith School.
00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:26.080
And um I really caught the coaching bug.
00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:30.000
So working with students, helping them sell themselves.
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I actually sat on the admissions board to help the school get their rankings up.
00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:46.719
I really wanted to better understand who we were selecting and make sure the right people were coming in so that the experience could be the right one for them.
00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:52.240
And at the end, they had good things to say, and employers had good things to say, and the rankings would follow.
00:03:52.400 --> 00:04:01.280
So I was there for a great while, probably about eight years, um, and ultimately decided I love the people side of business.
00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:23.920
So I was in a business school working with people, and I realized that in order to convince decision makers to invest in the people side of a business, you need facts, you need data, you need quantifiable metrics, but you need to be able to use them in a way that people understand them and will make decisions.
00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:28.000
And that's exactly why I went into industrial and organizational psychology.
00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:42.639
Biopsychology, as it's uh often referred to, is the science of people in the workplace, really looking at what factors contribute to success, satisfaction in the workplace.
00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:57.839
And so you've got your I, the IO, you've got your I, which is industrial, which is all the research, the psychology, the business side, all of the sort of really in-depth research that goes into understanding people in business.
00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:06.720
And the O, the organizational side, which I gravitated to, uh, I think I've always been more on that O side, which is how it's applied.
00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:26.000
How do you go into a workplace and use those data points with live humans to influence their decisions and to really make an impact in a way that people can get behind because you have the data to show that there are results associated with human action?
00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:32.000
Um, and so I worked for a couple of HR risk management.
00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:34.399
I worked for an HR risk management firm.
00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:45.120
And then ultimately I also worked for a management consulting firm doing a lot of organizational development, change management work, largely for the federal government.
00:05:45.279 --> 00:06:00.399
And also did some communications work, did a lot of different kinds of work, and landed what was really my dream job, working for Marriott International in a change management role, working for global change management through HR.
00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:22.560
And lo and behold, about a year later, Marriott acquired the Starwood brand of hotels, which many would say would be the largest change that Marriott encountered in its history and was able to lead a number of global change management initiatives around HR systems and really helping properties from the Starwood brand of hotels.
00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:24.000
So your Westons, your St.
00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:28.240
Regis, your Sheratons, migrate over to the Marriott way.
00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:45.600
And then I moved to an organizational design team where I led REOX of sales, marketing, and revenue management teams in the Americas, for Marriott International, and then ultimately led succession planning for Marriott's chief sales and marketing officer in the Americas.
00:06:45.839 --> 00:07:06.800
And that I would say was such an eye-opening experience working with these C-suite leaders for Marriott International who were, in some cases, they didn't have people to speak with and help them navigate all of these changes and these decisions.
00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:10.560
And so Marriott put me through certified coach training.
00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:18.720
And that was an added tool for me that has really informed where I am now.
00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:26.480
And in, let's see, so then in uh I led succession planning in 2019 in Toronto.
00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.319
And in 2020, we all know what happened.
00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:31.600
COVID hit.
00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:32.240
Yeah.
00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:34.560
I ended up on furlough.
00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:47.759
And while I was waiting for to be invited to come back to work uh after watching about a month of Netflix, I decided that I was, I thought I'd always wanted to start my own business.
00:07:47.920 --> 00:08:00.079
And I thought, well, maybe I'll just hire a business coach to help me do that and put my shingle out there and see what happened while I was waiting to go back to work and ended up getting a few clients and loving it.
00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:03.680
And thought, huh, I think this is my time.
00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:04.639
And I took a buyout.
00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:08.720
Marriott offered managers a buyout for anyone who was willing to take it.
00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:13.680
And so when it was my time to come back to work, I said, I'm gonna take a buyout and the rest is history.
00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:14.879
And we started this business.
00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:16.000
Congratulations.
00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:17.360
That is a great story.
00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:18.800
That is a great story.
00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:22.720
So tell me the focus of your organization today, of your company.
00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:29.680
I mean, I know at the event you talked quite a bit about the founder dependency and trying to create succession plans, things like that.
00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:31.439
Where do you most focus your efforts?
00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:34.639
What do you find that's most important for your clients?
00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:36.879
So I'd say I have three main clients.
00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:42.399
I have clients who are experienced professionals, often leaders, navigating career transitions.
00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:49.840
So it could be navigating the sale, sort of going from being the CEO of my business to something else after I sell, right?
00:08:50.000 --> 00:09:00.639
It could be I'm an executive somewhere and I'm doing fine by, you know, monetary standards or even in my business, they say I do great work, but I'm just not motivated.
00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:05.679
It's stressful, I'm overwhelmed, the work-life balance doesn't work for me.
00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:06.559
Whatever.
00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:10.960
I also work with business owners and their teams.
00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:20.080
So looking at do they have the right teams, make sure they have the right uh roles in place, and also make sure they have the right people in those roles.
00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:30.639
That often applies to businesses looking ahead to when they want to sell, but also how they want to operate, making sure that they have the, I like to say, the right butts and the right seats.
00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:34.799
And also working with high potential leaders to help them grow.
00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:45.039
So oftentimes a leader will reach out to me and say, I have this leader who is amazing and wonderful and I see as a future mainstay in my company.
00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:49.360
But they could use help with this one area or they're looking to grow in this area.
00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:51.200
Can you work with them directly?
00:09:51.360 --> 00:10:08.559
And then the third group is the sort of larger organizations like Amarriad, who bring me in to do change management, help them with larger initiatives, redesign, communication, succession planning, larger scale initiatives.
00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:12.639
So I work with the very small business and the business owner just one-on-one.
00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:17.120
And I also can can go larger than that and work with teams and groups.
00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:18.159
Well, that's great.
00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:27.279
So we've had a lot of people on our podcast, a lot of guests who talked about the transition post-acquisition and how it was difficult for them.
00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:29.440
And many of them are surprised by that.
00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:35.360
Has that been your experience when you work with clients and they go through a transaction or a transition of some sort?
00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:37.360
What's been your experience?
00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:42.320
So I wish I got to people earlier.
00:10:42.720 --> 00:11:00.159
Oftentimes, like I think Pricewater HouseCoopers did a study, and the Exit Planning Institute also validated these results through their research that I think it was 75% of owners who sell regret their sale a year after they sell.
00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:06.320
I've had owners call me crying from their beautiful backyards at their beautiful vacation homes.
00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:09.600
They got everything they wanted or they thought they wanted and they're miserable.
00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:11.039
And it's very sad.
00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:14.000
Um, loss of identity, loss of purpose.
00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:24.480
Uh, some of them feel guilty that they left their teams and they loved their people and it got acquired by a company that's not treating them well or doing their own rework.
00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:35.200
And in some cases, they just didn't foresee the importance of thinking about themselves and where they would go and where they would fit.
00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:49.039
They were so focused on selling and getting the money that they overlooked and undervalued the importance of finding their place in the world after.
00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:57.120
And so I think to answer your question, I am fortunate enough to have some clients who have reached out to me while they're planning.
00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:02.320
So five to eight years before they want to sell or exit, getting in touch with me.
00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:05.919
Often they get in touch with me to make sure their org is in a good place, right?
00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:07.759
Help me with the human capital stuff.
00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:17.919
Help me make sure that I can exit and my business can run without me, which is a very important factor when it comes to how businesses are valued.
00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:24.080
But I often help them very gradually think about themselves.
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:25.679
So what is your plan after?
00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:27.200
Here's why it matters.
00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:34.000
Let's start thinking about both the legacy you want to leave, but also what you're leaning into.
00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:35.600
Mm-hmm.
00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:42.240
And do you find that the people are receptive that the people that you're talking to, is it, oh, well, they figure that out later?
00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:45.440
Or is it more along the lines of, well, I never really thought about that?
00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:50.000
What do you extract from them that helps them to understand that this is a challenge?
00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:50.960
Yeah.
00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:53.120
I think there's a little of everything.
00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:56.240
Some people seem to get it almost automatically.
00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:01.279
Maybe they'd be the 15% anyway that sells and has already thought about it, right?
00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:02.639
Because they've reached out to me.
00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:08.559
I have partners, my finance partners, who will know that this is a very critical component.
00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:11.840
And so they'll have encouraged their client to get in touch with me.
00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:14.960
And maybe they need a little convincing, like, why is this important?
00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:16.960
I'm not really sure, but I'll play along.
00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:20.399
And then they get to a point where they are are glad they did.
00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:22.399
They'll say, Yeah, I have a friend.
00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:27.360
Oftentimes the people who are open to it say, Yeah, I have a friend who sold and got a divorce after.
00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:33.039
And it was like a whole crisis that they went through because they hadn't planned for this.
00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:43.440
And then there are those who don't necessarily feel it's on their radar, and they ask me, All right, so I'm willing to consider it.
00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:46.399
So how you asked, how do I get them there?
00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:52.159
Um tactfully, slowly, and asking them questions.
00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:54.559
You can bring a horse to water, you can't make it drink.
00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:56.960
So I'm not gonna tell somebody something.
00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:04.879
I'm gonna help them explore what they need to explore at the same time that I'm helping them accomplish whatever goal they hired me for.
00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:25.840
So help them think about their people and also ask them questions about what their life will look like after, how they'll know they made the right decision, who the supporting actors will be in their life, and and how much money they need to save and account for is also very important.
00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:28.159
And so these go hand in hand, right?
00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:35.279
Like a financial planner also needs to know how much money do you want to have after the sale to support your lifestyle?
00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:37.360
They have to know what their lifestyle is, right?
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:46.320
So oftentimes I'll partner with a financial planner on stuff to really flesh out okay, what is your life gonna look like?
00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:48.879
What brings you satisfaction?
00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:51.200
What role do you want to play in your business?
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:52.799
Some people want to stay tethered.
00:14:52.960 --> 00:15:00.399
They want either to have a role in the business, to be an outside consultant for a period of time.
00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:14.559
And so helping them think through how they want to sell it or or how they want to transition it and what role they want to play naturally starts to lead into who they will be afterward.
00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:17.679
Uh, so it's it's a gradual process.
00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:24.879
I don't like pushing anybody into any conversation they can't feel comfortable with or envision for themselves.
00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:26.080
So it's a process.
00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:26.799
Sure.
00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:40.720
Well, I imagine it's based on a lot of trusts established over time and probing the right kind of questions because I do know that a lot of the people that have been on our on our show um talked about specifically the the fact that, yeah, no one prepared me for that.
00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:42.240
But I figured I'd be fine.
00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:44.000
And so it it is a challenge.
00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:54.000
And so I imagine that if you start early with someone like yourself, then you can have the opportunity to to build that trust and be able to have a s a safe place to talk and communicate.
00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:59.919
Because it sort of feels like a soft thing to think about, but it's really very important because it's the human side of it.
00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:01.919
It does, and and it's interesting.
00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:13.600
I mean, if there's not a perfect, like everyone has a perfect plan and a perfect vision, and they leave with a package and they say goodbye to me and they sail off into the sunset and everything's perfect.
00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:27.919
I think a lot of times I get people to a place where we know each other well and they've uh prepared themselves and they've researched and they feel like they are in control of what's next.
00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:39.759
And some of my clients continue to work with me after they make the transition to, you know, flesh out any pieces because life changes, right?
00:16:39.919 --> 00:17:04.319
Unexpected things happen, but they feel prepared, they feel in the driver's seat and they can navigate what's next confidently and in a place where they feel empowered versus feeling like the rug has been ripped out from under them and they're just kind of sitting there looking into the the beautiful sunset of Greece or wherever they are that they're supposed to be so happy and they're not.
00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:05.920
It's an awful feeling.
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:07.279
Oh, exactly.
00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:08.160
It really is.
00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:19.119
Um, has anybody ever come to you post-transaction when they're in that state looking for support or help or questions for how to navigate their their life afterwards?
00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:20.160
Yes, yes.
00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:21.839
And I can help them.
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:23.759
I can help them.
00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:31.119
I I feel sad for them because there's a trauma associated with my whole life revolved around this baby that I built.
00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:31.519
Right.
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:34.319
And and I thought I controlled for everything.
00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:37.039
And it's not exactly what I expected.
00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:44.799
Um, there's one client I just remember, he was sitting in his backyard and feeling like, oh my gosh, what now?
00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:46.480
He said, like, I'm a nothing now.
00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:47.519
I'm a nobody.
00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:49.039
I'm a nobody with a lot of money.
00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:50.480
I don't know what to do with myself.
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:52.799
And we really thought about it together.
00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:55.440
And he had a lot of transferable skills.
00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:57.680
And there were a lot of things he could do.
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:02.799
But it was helpful, I think, for him to have me there to challenge him.
00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:04.400
Have you considered doing this?
00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:10.079
What would it look like to try to be a member of this board or do some community service?
00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:12.559
Like to really ask the question like what motivates you?
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:13.759
Some people don't want to do that.
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:17.920
Some people like working with children, some people like working out in nature.
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:20.319
I had one gentleman who wanted to actually get a job.
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:20.799
Yeah.
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:21.680
That can happen.
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:23.119
That can happen, certainly.
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:25.920
I mean, I know that I went through that when I sold my company.
00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:28.559
It was definitely a transition that I had not anticipated.
00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:29.680
And I didn't know you then.
00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:30.640
So I wish I had.
00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:32.079
I really wish I had.
00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:33.039
Yeah, but I know.
00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:37.839
And I through EPI, to be honest with you, I think I've told you this.
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:45.119
I've discovered that there's this whole market of people who don't know I exist.
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:47.200
And how would they know, right?
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:50.400
Like they don't see the statistic about people selling.
00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:55.599
They reach out to the logical mentors, the logical advisors who do their best.
00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:00.960
And they don't realize that their own, I'm not going to call it mental health.
00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:03.119
It's not, this is not therapy.
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:05.759
This is not necessarily all about mental health.
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:13.200
This is about strategic preparation for your career beyond the sale of your business.
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:22.400
Because when you've gone at 150 miles an hour and when you're an overachiever in a type A, which many of us, I say us, I'm in there too, are.
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:29.839
And so much of our self-worth is aligned with building something and selling something.
00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:31.440
And then we just stop.
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:37.519
It is very much, it is against who we are as people.
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:45.440
And then we start driving people around us nuts, also, uh, which I've seen in men and women alike do to their spouses, their children, their grandchildren.
00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:49.920
We need other places to use our brain and exhort our energy.
00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:51.599
Isn't that the truth?
00:19:51.759 --> 00:20:00.240
I mean, it sort of um harkens back to the days when they said someone will retire and they want to play golf all day, and then the the spouse is saying, go back to work, do something.
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:01.759
You know, we're driving me crazy.
00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:02.880
That's so true.
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:08.640
Um Yeah, you've just displaced my retirement plan with your retirement plan, right?
00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:09.440
Yeah.
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:10.319
Exactly.
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:11.920
Uh well, those are great stories.
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:14.240
This is super informative and helpful.
00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:16.000
I really appreciate all your insight.
00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:26.640
Any other any other stories that you'd like to share that might help some of our listeners who are typically people that are looking to exit within the next few years, other than to make sure that they give you a call?
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:31.279
Yeah, there is somebody I worked with and he owned a business with his brothers.
00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:45.359
So I work with a lot of family-owned businesses, whether it's transition, you know, the father or the parents are they want less of a role and they're handing it over to children or other relatives, husband and wife teams.
00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:47.599
I work with a lot of husband-wife teams.
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:52.400
You know, there's this assumption that if we life well together, we should be able to work well together.
00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:59.440
And often a third-party to just sort of identify roles, responsibilities, expectations can be helpful.
00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:11.759
I worked with a client and he is the youngest of three brothers that inherited their parents' business, ran it very successfully for many years, and then decided to sell.
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:13.759
And he reached out to me.
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:15.119
He was very aware.
00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:16.960
Again, there are some people that are just very aware.
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:28.319
He said, I need to figure out what my next move is because I'm very aware that I will not, it will not be good for me to be sitting there looking out into space.
00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:31.440
I'd like to have a plan and a transition for myself.
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:41.200
And we work together to really think about who he is, the value he brought to the business and what motivates him.
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:47.119
And a lot of people don't think about or recognize what motivates them.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:54.960
And I think that, you know, recognizing what motivates you is different than recognizing what you like to do.
00:21:58.000 --> 00:21:58.240
Right?
00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:06.799
Like he said, uh, I love to play basketball and I love golf and I love being with my family and all this, but what motivates me is operations.
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:09.759
I love solving problems.
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:10.079
No.
00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:10.799
Right.
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:16.480
And I can't do that by going to the beach with my family necessarily, or at least they don't want me to be that.
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:20.000
I I can't be that role, you know, in my regular life all the time.
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:24.000
And so he concluded through our work together that he wanted to start his own business.
00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:30.240
But it took him a while to, like his own personal business doing operations.
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:38.319
So he goes in and helps companies that want to outsource a lot of the, you know, in the weeds work, right?
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:41.599
Um, developing process procedures, et cetera.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:23:02.960
It took him a little while to realize that he could do this on his own and that it was worth doing and what it would take and why that motivated him and how he could fit that into the life of a retired person who also goes to the beach and also makes time for himself because he hadn't done that in his previous job.
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:17.519
So, how to be both healthy and productive and hold himself accountable, I found that to be a very personally satisfying client to work with.
00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:20.880
He was very self-aware, but he was also very aware of what he wasn't aware of.
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:21.920
Right, right.
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:23.119
That's a great story.
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:24.240
That is an amazing story.
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:25.839
And did they end up selling in the end?
00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:27.359
And they did.
00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:28.240
That's amazing.
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:28.960
They did.
00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:33.039
And what's fascinating is I have since heard that there were a lot of issues.
00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:36.160
A lot of the people that he really cared about got laid off.
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:38.480
They came in, they changed things around.
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:42.480
But he was very much aware of what he could and could not control.
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:46.000
And he was able to sort of say, let them, right?
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:47.279
I can't control that.
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:49.599
And I have all this stuff now.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:56.079
And and make peace with that chapter in a way that I think served him.
00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:59.039
Um yeah, that's a great story.
00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:00.559
How can people get a hold of you?
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:03.279
What's the best way of people for people to reach out?
00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:05.440
Yeah, email is great.
00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:10.160
Sarah at SGE-careers.com is one way.
00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:12.799
Yeah.
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:15.599
Um, I I think that's probably the best way.
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:20.400
On my website, there's a place for people to say request a free consultation.
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:23.359
So uh my website's always a good way.
00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:27.599
I'm actually putting together a new website, which we'll be launching soon.
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:28.720
So I'm excited about that.
00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:30.160
Same address so you'll have that.
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:39.599
And uh yeah, I mean, people can always call me too, but I think email or through my website is is uh the people will get a response quickly and they can see what I'm about.
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:48.799
Well, you were fascinating to listen to at the EPI event, and I do encourage any of our listeners to look for their local chapter of the Exit Planning Institute.
00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:52.319
And I look forward to seeing you in the next couple of meetings, miss the next couple of events.
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:53.519
Thank you so much, Sarah.
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:54.640
I really appreciate it.
00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:55.440
Thank you.
00:24:55.519 --> 00:24:56.720
It's been my pleasure.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:57.519
Okay.
00:24:58.160 --> 00:24:58.960
Bye bye.
