Anthony Joshua Returns

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Speaker 1: All right, welcome back s I Boxing Podcast. On this episode, we've got Brian Kenny, the blow by blow man for Fox Sports for The Zone. He joins me to talk about what we saw last weekend with Errol Spence against Danny Garcia. What we're going to see this weekend with Anthony Joshua defending his titles against Kubra Pulev. We get into Canello a little bit and the Floyd Mayweather exhibition against Logan Paul. Do we care? Should we care? What do we think about Floyd making another exhibition ring return? A little bit later on Anthony Joshua, the unified heavyweight champion. He is back after more than a year, almost a year out of the ring. His last fight last December against Andy Ruiz. A J and I talked about his time off and what exactly should we expect from Joshua in this return. Will we see the old Anthony Joshua, the guy that sought out knockouts or has Andy Ruiz changed him? Will we see a more cautious version of Joshua, one that fights off the jab more. I dive into that with a J and much more. Finally, Eric Draft, who is the director of the new documentary on Hector Macho Camancho. It is terrific. I talked to Eric about the process of putting that film together and what he thinks happened to Macho Camacho back in two thousand twelve when he was killed in Puerto Rico. That's a big part of this documentary. Terrific film. It's on Showtime on demand right now. Check it out and check out my conversation with Eric draft. As always, the best way to support this podcast get over to Apple podcast, most a comment, leave a rating. It's simple, it's easy, it's free. It's the best way to make sure that we keep doing this podcast week after week. That's it, all right, onto the show. This is the Sports Illustrated Boxing Podcast. It's boxing a look inside boxing with Sports Illustrated Chris Mann. Interviews, analysis and everything going on in boxing. And now a man who I wish was called the Boston Leader. It's sort of like getting punched in the face Christmas Meddix. All right, Brian Kenny is here by day, you know him from MLB Network. By night, he is the voice of boxing, at least for the month of December. Anyway. Last week Brian was on the call for Errol Spence's decision win over Danny Garcia that was on Fox pay per view. The next two weeks, he'll be back with me and his old friends on the Zone, first for Anthony Joshua's heavyweight title defense against Kobrod pool Lip on Saturday, and then a week later the Big One, Canello Alvarez he returns against Callum Smith. And if you want to see a grown man slobber over a fighter, tune in a little bit early to see Brian's favorite fighter, Julio Cesar Martinez defend his flyweight title. Is any of that intro inaccurate, Brian Kenny, No, that can all be defended in court doing greed. Uh well, welcome back, man, we got two more fights back to back. Ready to go back on the Zone. You're looking forward to it? I am. I've well one I've missed. I've missed you guys, even Sergio Um. And I've missed being with with the whole crew at the Zone. It's been far too long. And look I'm look, I'm calling an Anthony Joshua fight and then a Canello fight. You know. Look at the top of the food chain, I had Errol Spence last week. To see this level of boxing, especially well like last week. UM, just to be back with fans in an arena. UM. I've been calling a lot of fights from remote during the shutdown and obviously the months before that we weren't doing anything. So to qualified in front of fans was was fabulous. Very little can compared to eighty thousand at Wembley where we made our zone debut, right with Joshua and Pevekin. But just to have some fans there, Chris, if we go to a middle school and see guys fighting four rounders, that would be exciting. So yeah, to see and Joshua looked, is so much intrigue there. And how I how I feel about Canello and Canello is going for the real title at won six. Caleb Plant, I think we're on the same page. Is the number one contender at sixty eight. He's got a belt and he's a champion, all that, he's a titlist, But I think the best champion, the number one guy, is Callum Smith. So Canello is going for the real title now, be the real champ at sixty the real champ at sixty eight. That's rare in the history of boxing. Yeah, we'll get into Callum Smith, but I'm with you, this is a real fight. Anyone thinking that Callum Smith is somebody you look past on your way to other things is crazy. Callum Smith is the real deal at a hundred sixty eight pounds. Before we get into that, I want to talk about Floyd Mayweather and his recent announcement attention to return to the ring for another exhibition, this time against YouTuber Logan Paul. Last seeing the ring Floyd was in December dropping Sorry, Logan Paul was last see in the ring in December, dropping a decision to another YouTuber k s. I uh. This will be Floyd's a second straight exhibition, following a one sided knockout of Japanese kickboxer Tension Nasaka. With last year, Brian, you covered almost the entirety of Floyd Mayweather's career. What do you make of this latest chapter. It is what it is, Um. I have very little interest in these exhibitions, and it's just me. I'm not trying to make a statement. I'm not trying to be a boxing snob. But look, I used I trained with Mike Tyson, you know, in sight Um, and I've known Mike through the years. I'm certainly nostalgic for those days and for Mike, and Mike was is about the most exciting fighter. Know, He's the most exciting fighter I've ever seen with my own eyes. And I was in the gym with him every day, and yet he came back to fight Roy Jones, who is the best fighter I've ever seen with my own eyes, and I just you know, and I know it, but it's two fifty year old guys boxing. I know what it is. So I just wasn't excited, even though I love both guys in the ring, love them, but I know I'm not seeing them unless be time trouble. I'm noting the reel them. I'm seeing this them. And so with Floyd, I didn't say the fight that you just mentioned because you know, Floyd's not not even Roy Jones or Mike Tyson exciting like I think a lot of people might think, Oh, Tyson could really wreck havoc in the ring. You know, Floyd's not. He's just gonna outbox this guy. Floyd alt box most everybody on the planet when he's sixty. But again, I don't want to put it down. I'm not looking to I'm I'm not interested. I'm sorry, I'm not interested. I'm much more interested in you know better Beev and Canelo and Spence and Terence Crawford and the guys are on top now. It's just like you know, Sugar Ray. I was texting Sugar Ray all over the week, you know, weekend about Errol Spence and we worked together with Sugar Ray Leonard. Do I want to see sugar Yn Leonard box now? No? Do I want to watch him on tape? Yes? What did I pay full boat all through the eighties to see Sugar Ray box? Yes? I just how do you feel about it? Because I'm just it leaves me empty. Yeah, I feel at this point ambivalent, kind of like you do to what he's doing. And it's because I don't consider Floyd a boxer anymore. I think I would be. I was more upset that Floyd went for his fiftieth win against Connor McGregor that I am about any of this. Like this doesn't bother me one bit. Floyd is a retired athlete. He is trying to make a couple of bucks off his name and his likeness, and he's doing it and fights that he can clearly win. Uh. If you have like nineties seconds, go back and watch Floyd versus Tension, Yes Nosakawa, which was a demolition by Mayweather against a Japanese kickboxer. I don't know how this will play out. We both have seen Logan Paul before, having been part of the broadcast. His fight was on onto his own last November when he fought ks. I is a bigger guy, but big deal like Floyd's gonna box circles around him in that fight. It just it doesn't have any impact on me. If you want to pay fifties, sixties, seventy dollars whatever it is to see Floyd Mayweather back in the ring one more time, more power to you. A lot of people did when Mike Tyson fought Accorded Trailler. It was upwards of one and a half million people that bought that pay per view. If the same number of people want to see Floyd against a Logan Paul, great, but it's not boxing. Like if Floyd, I mean, I get your I take your point, Brian. Where if Floyd came back and boxed at sixty out boxing a lot of guys. But like if Floyd decided like I would, to get back into the welterweight rankings right now. I wouldn't make him top five in my opinion. He's just he's older, like he's still a good fighter, and he beat some guys. But Spence is better, Crawford's better, Danny Garcia is probably better, Thurman's probably better. The list of guys is probably better because that's been more active. Packy at this point is probably better. So it Floyd. Floyd's almost like a w W E character to me at this point. It's just you watch it for show. You don't watch it to see a master at work. And I don't blame him. I think Floyd truly Chris sits back like he did with the Connor McGregor thing, and was talking to his guys, you know, while while he's watching his seventy foot TV in his living room and going, uh, they're gonna pay me how much to fight this guy? Really? Oh God, well what am I thinking? Like? You don't, I don't blame them. You have to And for Tyson to come back and get over a million buys again, it's mind boggling. So God bless again, go ahead and do it. Um, I'm just not that excited now. You even said Errol Spence, Like if Floyd came back and said, I want to box Errol Spence, whoa, whoa, I go out of my mind and I know, yeah, but we get to see it right, and that's it. In quotes, it top of the food chain, Like just like when Oscar Oscar Delahoyah said he was coming back for real. I don't know where that stands now, but that's a different animals Like, wait, you're gonna box the top guys at top ten, you know, guy, it whatever way, it doesn't matter. That's a very different story. I'm very interested in that because that's the real test. Everything else is. As Snoop Dawn said, you're you're two drunk uncles fighting each other at a barbecue, even if they were once the best in the world. That's where they are right now. Yeah, I know we're on the same page. There the the the Tyson Jones fight. Not to get off track here, but like Roy looked like it had worked out at all, you know, going into that, whereas Tyson made a little bit exciting Roy. When I saw the picture of Roy, I just went, oh my god, Like Roy had the most like fantastic boxing physique for seemingly ever like, so I didn't see him fight, and I think the last time I saw the box was in Boise, like when he's fighting in Boise, idahoan not on even on TV. And then he fought over in Russia and I didn't even see those. So my image of of Roy Jones is this fantastic physique, you know, just electro finally fast. And when I saw the picture, I'm standing there for the way and I just went, oh, oh no, like no, like it's I didn't want to see that, you know, I didn't want I didn't want to see that. I want to see it. But it looked it looks good for most humans, I'm not saying, but that's not Roy Jones. Roy Jones looked like a god. And that's what I wanted to see now. And listening to him, we talked about this last podcast, but listening to him gasp at the end of the interview with Jim Gray, like I'll do this again. No, no, we're we're done. Where what's collective ice? Check? Roy? Seven figure check? And let's walk away. Before you know, you fight somebody bigger and meaner and look at someone looking to hurt you in that point in that moment that we don't we don't need to see any more of that. All right, let's talk about a real fight. This was last Saturday. You were down in Arlington, Texas ringside for that with arrow. Spence defended his unified hundred forty seven pound championships, dominating Danny Garcia and route to a unanimous decision. Uh. Spence keeps his titles and proves, which is maybe more important, that there were no lasting effects from that horrific car crash he was in just over a year ago. So sitting there, Brian, what did you think of Spence's performance? Oh? I thought it was fantastic. Um, and I think it'll be better next time out. Um. I'm almost a little disappointed to hear him say I'll be back in the summer. I'm like summer, I think, I said on the end of the telecast, how's March? Where's April? Like, come on, you can fight March April, February, come back and then in the summer again, like I want to. I think he needs to be active now, look all things considered, of course, he was thrown from Miss Ferrari in a hundred miles an hour. I mean Thank God he's alive. And he looked like Errol Spence, so you're right, he looked great. Now let me ask you why am I disappointed in Danny Garcia? Because I was, and you you already know why. I mean, he didn't engage at least not anywhere near as much as he should have fighting a guy that I thought you wanted to test his chin earlier in that fight, I didn't see And look, I haven't seen the Danny Garcia at one forty that we're seeing at one seven. I think they're two different fighters. I think the guy on seven was more willing to trade and try to time you. Where's the guy at one four or one forty was wanted to do? The guy seven is just a little bit more tentative than that. Here's why you're you're You're right on it, You're near it. But I'll go even deeper because we haven't discussed this ahead of time. But I know we kind of think in a similar fashion as I praised both of us at the same time. UM no, that's we're fine on that too. I just know I appreciate your sensibility on most of these things, because um we Danny and Angel had to know that the score going in from the get go, knowing that this isn't Chris Algeri fighting Manny Pacio, where it's like I've got to come up with the fight plan of a lifetime. I've got to try something tremendously different. I'm really gonna get crazy. I've got to change a lot in order to even compete. This is not that. This is you know, Spences here and Garcia is here. He's very close. He's a top five welterweight. He was right. He was great against Lucas Matisse that night when he that was a true big time fight for and that was for supremacy at one forty world supremacy. But he had to know in every conversation I had with him an angel, I know they're not gonna tell me everything fight plan. They think I'm gonna ab even though I don't like when I'm asking them something lost camera. Um, you know, you know when we do fighter meetings, it's like, we don't go talking about this until we're in the fight and you're doing it. But so they didn't tell me ahead of time when I was on camera talking to Danny, didn't tell me on the fight in the fighter meetings. But I really got the sense and Lennox Lewis did as well, that I don't hear a new game plan, and you have to know you need a different game plan. Your natural style is to is to be is to lay back, CounterPunch, punish, and be consistent. Danny's very consistent, He's very tough, he's very smart. But the pre fight game planning, what's your what's your plan A, B and C? Because we already know A is not working like A gets you another loss. It was my first question to him, Chris, was you already lost close to Keith Thurman and Thurman was chasing him around the ring. You already lost close to Sean Porter. A lot of people thought he beat Porter. I thought it was really close. So you already lost to the top two guys. What makes you think you're gonna, you know, beat the guy who's even better than those two you know who beat Sean Porter fairly, but did um wow, what makes you think that? Like you must think I'm so close to this guy, but I can't do myself. Their styles were perfect for Spence and you had to know yet to do something a little different. And I just felt like he didn't, and you had to try something radical otherwise. Now, I said to Joe Goose, and why take the final? He said, oh, you don't want to take the fight. Take the money. No, take the money, but then think it through a lot and have planned B and C when A obviously isn't gonna work and it's and I want to point out, I want to be specific, there's only so much you can do. A lot of cases. I pointed out Chris Algerie against Manny Pati. People remember that fight. Here was only so much that kid from Long Island who started boxing when he was twenty one years old was going to be able to do against pakiow Right. But that's not the case with Danny Garcia. There were lots of things he could have done. And to hear Angel in the corner between rounds telling him, I think Angels done a great job with him, Dad, But to hear him saying, like, you know, you're giving them too much respect. No, you've got to give them specific things, and it wasn't there, and it made it an easy night. I thought the most likely scenario was that at the end of the night, it'll be seven five, eight four and Danny and Angel will be putting their hands up in the air again like they did against Thurman and Porter and go, oh we won that fight. But they couldn't even get that close. So that's why I'm disappointed. I think the world of Danny Garcia. You know, I really thought he but that was it's up here. You had to come up with something a little different, and they just didn't. Yeah, I think we see things along the same wavelength. I mean I was sort of zeroed in listening to Angel between rounds saying you're showing them too much respect. How I interpreted that was that Danny knew what was coming back at him and he was getting caught, even if it wasn't these you know, explosive exchanges. He knew what kind of power Errol had and didn't want to get in there and mix it up. But you know that. But you know that right like you know that, you know going in he is popping you with a real jeb and then snaking in that left hand that will hurt you to the body. You know that when you sign for the fight, So you gotta come up with something something like, hey, turn south paw, double up on the jab bum rush him. That you know, anything like and I thought even his best chance like you and watching. I watched a ton of tape because I was sequestered. You know, we're all quarantined. So I said, I'm gonna do let me watch more t Let's go back and watch more Spence tapes, more spend stage. I watched like almost all of his fights, everything I could, and it was clear, if you don't get this guy early, you're not getting him late. He is. He is, and I'll give this the highest praise. He is like Floyd Mayweather in that his form stays true round after round after round, and so if you don't get him early, he's gonna just beat you up late. It's a fact he does it to everybody. Look what he did to Kell Brooke. Brooke was boxing great. That was an even fight. By the end, Brooke took on the and said, I'm I'm done. He doesn't stop. It's not like he just overwhelms you, you know, with just this consistency of time, and he won't stop bopping you. So like, why wouldn't after the guy has a car crash that almost kills him, why wouldn't you just you know, bum rush him in the first round, really rough him up. Don't come out and go okay, let ding here we go. No, chase him down and make him think from the get go. Look, Peter McNeely did it, but he couldn't close that gap in skill. Muhammad Ali did it to George Foreman. Raced across the ring and just started firing shots at him, saying, I'm big and strong too. I can just and there's nothing you can do to me for now for these fifteen seconds. And I'm not saying it works it knocks him out, but try something because otherwise the end to me seemed obvious and it was even more widespread than I thought it was gonna be. It was anticlimactic. By the middle of the fight, when you knew that Danny wasn't going to get outside his comfort zone and change up the game plan at all, you knew this was the result. Spence, uh for whatever reason. I mean, he was clearly a good tactical decision, was going to keep doing what he's doing. That's kind of what he's done in the last few fights. Um, Danny. What most frust for me about Danny's thirty two years old, and it's not make or break, especially on the PVC universe where there are big fights, you can make rematches, you can make with guys like Thurman and Porter down the line, even Adrian Browner's and mention as a possible candidate to fight Danny Garcia. But this was your moment and you didn't kind of give it everything you had in that moment. Let me ask you about Spence, Um, what was the difference? I mean, did you see a difference in these guys or did you see the same level of skill in Spence that you saw a year plus ago. I thought he was great against Porter because and look at the styles, make the fights. He had a guy that was that had a real plan, you know, not not and a plan and a style that was going to you know, test Errol Spence from his sheer, volume and physicality. It was a much better matchup for Porter than it was for Danny Garcia. Um. And I thought Spence was marvelous. Uh. He was. He was strong enough to hold him off early and then he caught him twice in the eleventh Once he stunned Sean with I think it was like kind of a straight right and stunned him and weakened him, and then we hit him with the hook, the left hook, that's when he put him down. And if you watch the end of that fight, the way he's chasing Sean Porter to try to knock him out in the twelfth round is you know, kudos to him hard to top that and he didn't have to. Um. That's why I say, I think if he got back in the ring in the spring fight someone lower fine, I think we all accept that and then get another mega fight in the in the summer. Um, I think he would just get Sharper and Sharper. Let me ask you something, because people are asking me this and I don't quite know the answer. I think I know who i'd favor Spence versus Crawford. Who would you favor? Man, It's tough. I'd probably favor Spence the because I think Spence can keep Crawford off him with that jab and make it the kind of fight we saw against Danny Garcia, Whereas crawford size disadvantage would probably force him to take more chances. He would certainly be successful because he's an incredible talent and an incredible athlete. But I'd probably favor Spence given what I saw in this last fight. What about you, Yeah, same in that and that's because Spence is a little bigger. He's extremely consistent, he's extremely intuitive. It's a very high boxing I q um. And obviously we're both saying almost goes without saying. Crawford is so tough and so good and a good fighter that obviously it would be a mega fight and it would be great. Um. That's why I'm not saying, oh, Spence speaks him. I would favor Spence only because I think he's speaking you know right now. Uh, you know, these these next eighteen months, and I hope the fight can be made. People have been asking me about this and I'm like, look, I get disappointed. I don't talk about it a lot because I don't see it being made. Um, and I hope it doesn't turn out to be Remember how hot it was like we were working to other. Uh. Deontay Wilder Anthony Joshua. Deontay Wilder Anthony Joshua would have owned the world. They would have been doing a million buys easy on pay per view. They could have fought each other three straight times, shut out everybody else, including Tyson Fury because Tyson was just coming back and say, look, Tyson, you can find anybody you want, but you went away three years by they couldn't. They wouldn't have lost to anybody else except each other. They could have made it would have been a worldwide thing. Remember that, that that moment in time where it was so big, globally big. This wouldn't be globally as big. But I think Spence Crawford would just like ignite everybody's imagination. We always bring them back. It's cliche, but like the eighties and the Welterway, it's with Sugar Ray, with Hagler, with Hearns, with direct where you're like, I don't know who wins this fight, and I've got to see it. And what you're doing by delaying it is making it less likely you get those rematches and get Spence Crawford Part one, Part two, Part three. I think you eventually do get Spence versus Crawford, for no other reason than when Crawford's contract is up in about a year, which is what I've been told it is up. After a couple of fights, he's gonna be gone, like he'll go over to the PBC side, and eventually that fight gets made. But in two thousand twenty two, Brian I think it's still a great fight. But every month that passes, literally at this point, I think it's less and less significant or less and less. No, every and everything can have, anything can happen, Anybody can lose, anybody can get thrown from their ferrari. Oh that already happened, but he survived, and and guys just diminished Crawford's what thirty three? Um, you know that's that's you know, I know, you know thirty three is the new twenty nine, but it's not Young and thirty and Spencers thirty. So like it's on now and everyone thinks I've been I've lived through this. I sat next to Lennox Lewis and I put it to him during the finals, like you know what, uh we we've already seen this. Guys throwing you know, belts and garbage camps rather than take the fight. And Lennox, for those kids out there, Lennox Lewis, Riddick bow never happened, and Lennox Lewis Mike Tyson almost never happened. And it happened very overripe, way past it's it's due date, and Tyson holy Field finally happened. But if you put something off. You think, oh, there's time, Nope, nope, they'll go away. And it doesn't have to be as egregious as Mayweather PACKI out that was egregious, and that was obviously way past its sell date. But it happens faster than you think. And there's no better example right now than thinking. Try to remember how hot Anthony Joshua Deontay Wilder would have been worldwide. Everybody and Chris, you want to tell all these guys, you all would have made so much money. You all like, this helps everyone I've lived through, and I get tired of it, and then I get criticized because, oh, you're not pushing forward. I'm like, what do you I'm calling a fight? What do you want from me? Yes, of course I want to see it, and yes, of course I try to acknowledge everybody in the division. Um, but it's it's maddening that we've kind of now gotten back to and it's just it's an organic thing that's happened on its own. But much like in the nineties, just before Scool Delahoya fought like Quarte and then suddenly the welter weights that was then it was welter weight too, you had Whittaker, Delahoya, Quarte all the same division. Nobody's fighting each other, and then they started because Oscar got after it. So you can only hope they You know, Tyson Jones just did one point six million buys. You want to tell these guys it's possible. I don't want to hear. Oh, in this fragmented universe, you can't blah blah blah. They just did it. They just did it. I was, I was, I was gonna laugh out of why fighters care about the fragmentation, Like they'll never make less money. The people that make a little bit less money, other promoters who have to be involved in a co promotion and the network. You have to be involved in the network. What do you care if you're a fighter, why do you give a damn what Fox or to Zone or ESPN makes, Like why could you possibly care about the outcome of their find Is that that always always the fund and the other thing too, Brian, like these guys Spence and Crawford have got to stop chasing Mandy Packy out. Mandy Packy has not fighting either one of them. He's just not if the people around him, some of the guys at the top have brain cells, they say, Connor McGregor and Mikey Garcia, and then be done with it. You've done all that you needed to accomplish in your career. You fought the tough guys. Why in the world would you put yourself in a position to get your head caved in by one of those two guys when you can make more money against McGregor and against Mikey Garcia in Saudi Arabia or wherever you want to put in the Middle East, and maybe you lose to Mikey Garcia, but you don't get beat up. And at this point, I don't know about you, but I don't want to see paty Ill beat up. I don't need to see that of a forty one almost forty two year old man in the ring. It's almost like I was watching the Hector Camacho documentary Less Guy. It was. It was I was outstanding. Uh, you know, my friend Teddy Atlas was all over. It was great that I kind of relive boxing in the eighties in New York. It was great. It was nasty um. And then to see there's Sugar Ray Letard in his last fight and the same sort of thing. I'm thinking, Oh, man, that's not Sugar Ray Leonard. It looks like him, but it's not him. And so pack I was gonna find that the worst thing that happened. I thought it would happen against Keith Thurman. But credit to Paki, oh it didn't. He he looked great against Thurman. But that's like the worst thing that can happen to you. It's like, whoa, Now he's emboldened. He's gonna keep on going until he gets beat up for good. And that's it's a bad ending. We've seen it many times. Yeah, I don't need to see I just don't need to see it. I'd like to see if he loses to Mikey Garcia. It's a nice graceful way to go out with a golden parachute behind him and then do exhibitions. I don't care. There's gonna be somebody that wants to fight you. And he seems busy enough, like you know, he keeps getting more public honors and and and higher station and government in the Philby. He seems to be busy enough, like he's he's transitioned already, you know, leave it, leave us alone, or fight you know. Look, I don't know what I want to see him fight, of course, and that's that's the issue. He's still exciting and his brand is still red hot. It is it is, and I get while these guys are chasing him, but I just don't get the sense. I mean, Freddie Roach might say one thing that gets a headline on boxing scene, but you know, behind the scenes, he's like, I don't want Spence, I don't want Crawford, Like why would he want these guys for his fighter. He knows what man he is, knows the level of guys man he can beat, and there's really no need to go down that path. All right, Let's talk about the two fights coming up. First, Anthony Joshua back in the ring, first fight since last December when he knocked off Andy Ruise in Saudi Arabia, this time taking care of a mandatory in Kubra Poulev. We don't have to get too deep into poul Lev here. I can respect him getting this mandatory shot. He's won eight fights in a row since he beat Vladimir klitschkoh he beat Derek Chassa, which is the goodwin. He has some other semi decent wins on that resume. This is fine. I don't look at him though, as a significant threat to Joshua, because I don't think he has the chin of Andy Ruiz and I don't think he has the hand speed of Andy Ruise, the two things that did a j N in his last loss to Ruise. But about Joshua, you saw him in Saudi Arabia. That was not the Anthony Joshua we had seen for the twenty plus fights that preceded it. He was more cautious, he was more calculating. He didn't engage as much as he had as another fights. I think my question coming into this fight, Brian, is will we see that version of Anthony Joshua moving forward? Has he become Anthony Joshua Klitchko? Has he become a new version of Vladimir Klitchko where he fights off the jab, he used his size, he counterpunches, and he is okay with lopside of decisions. Do you think that we see that version of Joshua or was Ruise just the one guy he needed to get past and we see the in ring predator once again? Yeah? I um, we don't know. To answer the last question, you and I disagreed slightly. I believe ringside. I don't want to mischaracterize what you thought what you said, but we had plenty of time to chat on then traveled back from Saudi Arabia. For what I recall, I thought Joshua was masterful against Ruise, doing what he had to do. But I know, I think if I'm recalling what you were saying, there's a there's a fine line between masterful and reluctant. You know it's closed and I get it. But against Ruise, you can't blame him for being a little reticent to engage. Even a fat Andy Ruise, a fat or randy Andy Ruise who is still was still you can see a dangerous guy when you get in his grill, like right in front of you. So A j was like, whoa, I've been down that road before and I landed on my back. I don't blame him for boxing that way. I thought he boxed beautifully, masterfully. He also really slims down. I'd be interested to see what he weighs in and how he looks physically when he gets into the ring this week. But I think he looked no. But you never go back to being the same guy. But I think he'll be much more like that exciting kind of multidimensional boxer puncher. He's just too big and physical to do that. He did what he had to do against Ruise, and I think he now has a chance against a slightly lesser opponent to kind of dictate the physicality in the ring, and we have to see it happen. But I'd love to see him impose his will a little more when he's out boxing guy and bring the phone. Look, he only has to win this fight to get the fight everybody is looking forward to that being Tyson fury A j potentially the undisputed heavyweight championship. He doesn't have to look good in this fight, but I'd like to see him look good. I think this is an ideal opponent for him to look good against. One of the films I've been watching of Poolev was his loss to Klitschko, the only loss of his career. He had in that fight, I think the worst game plan in the history of boxing game plans. I might take it a step further, he might have had the worst game plan in the history of sports game plans. He just stood there and traded with Vladimir Klitscho. I think lad was just standing there being like, is this guy really gonna stand there and see if my left hook can knock him out? And sure enough it didn't knocked him down I think four or five times and then eventually knocked him out. If that's the same pool Lev, and I don't think a guy changes all that much in his late thirties. I think we're gonna see the same Kubrat Poulev. This is an opportunity. This is a guy that's standing right in front of you that does not have a great shin like Andy Ruiz does that you can knock out and say, look, I got my titles back. Now, I'm all the way back. Now you Tyson Fury your next. It wouldn't surprise me, Brian. You know there's a thousand fans will be let into that building on fight night. Wouldn't surprise me if Tyson Fury is one of them, and that they have some kind of build up to that fight with him sitting ringside, climbing into the ring immediately afterwards. This will be Joshua's opportunity to present b Roll to the world. Getting ready for that Fury showed. I think that's what's on the line here. He wins, he wins, he gets it no matter what. But the buzz will be so much bigger if he goes out and flattens Poolev in the same ways flattened so many others. You're right, remember um, I remember uh going to work at MLB network um on a Monday, like after a fight weekend, and I couldn't believe how many people were talking about Deonte Wilder, Dominic Brazil. You know, and we know who Dominic Brazil is, like a sturdy guy, former football player, but he got pole axed by Deonte and like just mainstream sort of boxing fans, guys who are on the fringe. These are all my baseball producers who like boxing, but you know, could take it or leave it depending on how exciting it is. They couldn't get get enough of talking about how great Wilder was. So yes, if we have a big knockout, that's the b role you need to build and for people to get excited about Joshua, because we were excited about Joshua, you know, not that long ago. He's Apollo Creed. I mean, he's just fantastic, So what's not to love about that guy? If he's exciting in the ring and normally he is he was against Abetkin. That's the kind of fight I'm looking for here where the guy will engage. And you're right too. In order to really ignite everybody's imagination, you need everyone to think that this isn't just fodder for Tyson Fury, because our last image of Fury is out boxing Wilder, you know, by a wide, wide margin. I'm serious, worst game plan you'll ever see, Like this is like Grady it all, leaving Pedro in in the playoffs. This is you know, the Rams throwing on the Patriots with three men in the box, Like this was bonkers. How bad that game plan was coming in this weekend Jet splits on the last play. I mean, like this, there's bad decisions. This is thinking worse. It's even worse because you're gonna get knocked out, like you're about to get hit in the face by a missile and you're just lining yourself up to go and take it. So if he has that same approach, this is a great opportunity for Anthony Joshua in this one. All right, let's finish with Canelo. Back on December nineteenth, He's taken on Callum Smith, which I feel like a lot of people Brian are saying, like, all right, he's taken on Callum Smith. Let's see what's after Callum Smith. I am not talking about what's after Callum Smith. We can get into Glafkin, we can get into the unifications that Canello was talking about. But Callum Smith, to me, is so much more than just alive underdog. It's not a coin flip fight because Canello, I think is the best fighter in the world, and the best fighter in the world deserves the respect of being a significant favorite going in. But Callum Smith is not up the fighter that looked bad against John Rider. John Rider is a south paw. He makes fights ugly. He made that fight out with Callum Smith, and I don't think Callum took that fight all that seriously. To me, Callum Smith is the big, sturdy, hundred and sixty eight power pounder that knocked out George Groves, that knocked out Hassan da Dam, that was undefeated or is undefeated in his professional boxing career. This is going to be the biggest man that Canelo Alvarez has faced in the ring, a legit six ft three probably gonna way in like on fight that a guy with a jab, a guy with real power. I don't know, Brian, This this to me is I don't know if we can say it's Cannello's toughest test to date because the first go off Can fight, there was so much build up for that, and aris Landy Lahar was certainly really tough at one. But this is a real fight for Canelo Alvarez. In my opinion, what do you think, Oh, this is the real champ at one like this, he's the ring magazine champ, and I know I think that's fallen out of favor, but all that does is tried reflect what's happening in the ring, Like you need to do a lot to win to win a ring magazine title. He's got what two of the belts and the ring magazine belt. Again, I think Caleb Plant is right there. I thought he looked fantastic in his last fight, and he trains beautifully. He's very dedicated, so I think the world of him. I think he's like what you would call the number one contender in the old days. That's meaningful. Callum Smith's the real champ. When you go and fight the real champ, that means something. And this is also not Sergey Kovalev on the back end. This is a champ in his prime and as you know, like through the years, Um like even like the criticism Floyd Mayweather a god, he carefully avoided fighting a guy who is peaking, Like you want no part of that guy, Callum Smith, Like as much as anybody's peaking now after this pandemic. Who knows, but Callum Smith is at is in his prime. He's on top. He should be completely geared up to this and right at his best. He's rangy and strong and stylish. He's very good. He's the champion of the world in that weight class, and the champion of the world just below him is going up. It should be a super fight. Smith hasn't kind of made that level yet, but I agree with you, this is it's legit, like unless he went up to seventy five and fought better beef. This is the best fight out there, Like you know, because who who's stepping up? Like are the Charlos moving up? You know, Charlot's at one sixty or his brother who's the real champ at one fifty four? Like you know, Jamal and Jamal both present a test. But you could make a case. I think this is if you said, hey, b kay, you could you know, find one fight for Canelo right there, I'd say that one the most realistic one. When I want to see Triple gf third time, yeah of course, um, but this is this is the real thing. I'm with you completely. Triple G is for the the more casual fans. Like that's to bring them back because I think there's still an appetite for Gallofkin versus Canelo three, because I do think there's a disconnect between what like the boxing die hard see and what the casual fans want. Right Like they the boxing purists will say, we've seen Golofkin the last couple of fights. He's not the same guy he was going into the first Canello fight. But casual fans don't care. They know Golofkin's name, they know his knockouts, that know close those first two fights are. They want to see that fight. But you know, this was kind of like casually accepted by Canello Alvarez with a month plus to go before the fight, and this is the toughest fight out there for him. It's tougher, I think than Jamal Charlo, who is still not yet proven at one sixty, it's tougher than Jamal Charlo. We still at one That's a big guy that has the ability to hurt Canello. Now he does present opportunity for Canello like that is a long Torso Brian that he's got there. And Canello is one of the best, not the best body punchers in all of boxing. So that's gonna be open for him at different times during this fight that was open as Rocky Fielding made it back in two thousand and eighteen. But I think that's gonna be open for him. But this is a guy that can hit harder than Rocky Fielding, is more talented than Rocky Fielding, and can do a whole bunch of bad things to you if you make any mistakes in the ring. That I almost I almost said that name. By the way, I wanted to say, you know, for anybody out there that that's thinking, oh, this is Rocky Fielding, No, no, no, it's a very different guy. Don't get your Brits confused. It's a very different human being. And you have building had And this is what is a shame about all the belts that are out there, is that a guy like Rocky Fielding no disrespect. Had one of the belts that really didn't mean anything, but Canelo grabbed it. And no matter what we say or point out, people will say, well he wont a title, and then someone say, well he has a title at at at at No, not really, it was a belt, It was a trinket. Um Callum Smith has real belts, you know, and just like Caleb Plant has a real belt. But Callum Smith's the best guy. This is not Rocky Fielding. And this is again, this is part of the whole you know, uh problem with boxing. I don't wanna be talking problems with boxing all the time, but that's part of it. Is that here's a real guy, a real champ, and we're trying to sell him. It should go without saying. It's like, this guy is the champion of the world. You don't have to explain what you When Ricardo Mayorga was the welterweight champion of the world, you don't have to explain. I know he's raw, I know he doesn't look the part, but he said it's like, wait, is he the welter weight champion world? Yes, well, what else do I need to know? So he's the super middleweight champion of the world, Callum Smith is the real thing. And yet because there's so many belts devaluing what the real champ is, this is what we're left with. I don't think the phrase unification fight will come out of any of our mouths. On the nineteenth. This is not please yeah, it is no. It is no um last thing for you. Canelo, on his press conference, uh dismissed the idea of fighting Golofkin next, saying he wants to unify at I'm not really buying that, Brian. I think you know, the stars are kind of lining up for that third Golofkin fight. If both get through their fights on that weekend, Golofkin gainst Camille's are Metta on December eighteen, that's a fight he should win going away. If Golofkin is anything close to the same Golofkin, he should knock out Camille's are Metta, which will give him some momentum the next night, Canello against uh Calm Smith. I'm not against Canelo against Caleb plant down the line, or David Benavidez or Jamal Charlo, any of that. But I think the most interest is gonna be in a third Golofkin fight, and I think by far the most money is going to be in a third Golofkin fight, because you and I both know that the fight to zone has been craving for the better part of the last three years has been Canello Golofkin three. So I don't think they'll be uh skimping on the offers for that fight ultimately happened. What do you think about what Canello said about his future? Yeah, well, well, one boy, he really hates Glovekin like he does. He hates he hates him so much he doesn't even want to beat him up another time. Like that's that's how much like it's like. But if you hate him so much, you know you can go in and beat him up again. No, I hate him too much. I don't even want to touch him with my fists. Um doesn't want to get doesn't want to get this punished. He wants to punish the guy. I get it. But you're right again. We would have to when I say we, because we're trying to be honest brokers to the fans, we would have to say, hey, Jamal Charlo is excellent. Hey, Jamal Charlo is the junior middleweight champion of the world. So that's real. He's the champ. At fifty four, he'd be moving up to fight Canello. But you should be excited people, Um, Caleb Plant is excellent at I called him the number one contender. He has a belt that would be almost kind of a not quite like Vernon Forrest Shane Moseley, but almost like, Hey, Canello, I know you're the champion when saying you're the real champ after you beat Colin Smith. If that happens, I think it does. But you got business to do here, right that would be honest to say he has business with Caleb Plant to call himself the super middleweight champion. He doesn't have to do it right away, but you gotta do it, um. But we'd be selling it. We don't have to triple g Canello pre sold you know, a million pay per view buys or you know on the zone. Um, just getting a huge subscriber base. Yeah, maint And if we've learned nothing over the last week or two, it's that mainstream fans have an appetite for boxing if you give him a really a familiar match up, right, you know Jones, you know Tyson? What are you talking about now Cannello, Canello, Triple G. It's familiar, I think too, if you're Canello and Eddie Renault. So you have to look at the business of this, like Caleb Plants gonna be there. He's in his late twenties. The Charlot's are just thirty years old. Like those fights end of into those fights gonna be there. They may even get bigger if both those guys wins. Eventually Golofkin goes away, like if Canello doesn't fight him and golof has to go win with say Demetrius Android or even a Mongia like he could lose and then that entire pay day goes away. So from a business perspective, take the money man, take the check, and then then go over to PBS. I think it's the right move. Now that Canello is as finished his litigation there with Golden Boy into own, it's probably the right move for him to stay flexible out there because going to PBC makes sense for a few fights. Maybe you know, Billy Joe Sanders gets bigger a few fights later. You can find him in twenty two or something like that, flexible, and he's good for for Canelo. But it's gotta be Glafkin the second time or third time. It's gotta belf So yeah, and I'm with I'm with you on not at all fronts and right if it makes dollars, that makes sense, as Floyd Mayweather said, And that's a great way to punctuate this podcast. Brian, good to talk to you man. Looking forward to seeing you back virtual ringside on Saturday, then actual ringside on the nine team for Canelo and Colum Smith. Good to see you man. Alright, Chris, I'll see it in a few days. Effony Joshua is the Unified heavyweight champion. He regained his titles last December with the win over Andy Ruiz, and he will make his debut on Saturday when he faces Kobra Pula at s sc Arena, where a thousand fans will be in attendance, making it I believe the first UK show to have fans present since the pandemic hit. That's a fight you can see live on the Zone in the US. And A J joins me on the show. Edge let's start there. How do you feel about having at least a small crowd in attendance with this fight? It's been up and down. I was really like condition in my mind as to say no, fans allowed a lot of focus abot tunnel vision. Then they say fans allowed some thinking. Right, perfect, that's gonna be you know, forty fifty people. Then it's like only two thousand. So it's gonna be one of those things where it's like I'm going to hear everyone's voice, I'm gonna hear a pin drop in there. Well, we'll keep a tunnel vision. But I feel like it's gonna be good for the fans because it's going to be intimate. It's gonna be something that they've never experienced before witnessing a heavyweight championship fight amongst a thousand people. So it's gonna be like a a lucky crowd for example. So it's just up to me and Poula to make sure we put on a good show and want for them to remember. So when you were deciding, you know, if you were going to fight, when you were going to fight, I mean, how tough a car was that? Because I mean you're used to fighting in front of huge crowd and making a lot of money that comes with those crowds. I would imagine this is you know, a pretty big hit for you. I mean, how how tough was the decision to take this fight with all the circumstances. You know, Interestingly, when when this opportunity came about, it wasn't so much about the finances. It was like, this is your mandatory. You've got to fight him. And looking back sometimes I wish I thought him, you know, around the time that Dylan White had his fighters for Vetkim, because I would have tried to get out again in December, so I wasn't this year. I wasn't so much concerned about the financial loss. It was like, I just need to stay active and hopefully you hope for a better is annoying, it's a big loss, but there's a bigger picture that we're trying to create as well. And I need to get past poo Left. He's a tough fighter and I'm going to have to fight him at some stage, so you know, there's no better time than to do it now. I feel like I've had a lot of time to work on my craft over the last year coming back from Saudi. I've got my tight was back. I feel like the pressures off me now and I can just focus on myself again. Um yeah, gone so so you're saying you wish you fought Neddie Herne's backyards when you're telling me, yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't have mind have fighting in his back yard, getting tool about the way, and then like I would have been able to focus on the next fight And it's about being back on that gravy train again, like this is the first stop. I'm back at that first stop. Now I've been away for a year. Now I'm now like at the first stop of this journey once again. It's like we stopped for a bit and it's about to pick up again. So I wish that Like if I would have fought in Eddie Harnds back garden, it probably would have been six to seven months out of the ring, but now it's been twelve months out of the ring, so it spit more of a longer a longer stretch. I think the one question a j I have going into this fight is has Anthony Joshua changed as a fighter? Has Andy Ruiz changed you and made you, perhaps permanently more of a guarded fighter, a guy that fights even more off the jab, or are you still the guy that you know when he sees somebody hurt. He's a seeking, destroyed type of fighter, a N plus knockout rate type of guy. Has Andy Ruiz changed you physically? He hasn't changed me. I still carry and possessed of powers. I feel like, technically, why is he's improved me? He's changed me for the better. He changed my mental focus as well about what this really means. Because I was that guy that just coming to the boxing gym. Three years later I was Olympic champion when I turned pro. Three years later, I was World champion, so I didn't even really embrace what I was doing. And then I get to see Andrew's living life over in America and Mexico, I was like, Wow, that's what it means to be champions. So he definitely changed me for the better. But what he's done he made me realize there's two different things. There's what we call defining performances and there's defining fights. So I feel like when I boxed Andrewuis and Saudi, he wasn't a defining fight, but I was a defining performance. I had to guard and had to put on a spectacular performance, which was sticking to my game plan to win. So with who left the defined import performance does include power punches and earning his respect. So yeah, I definitely still possessed that killer instinct and gladiate and mindset for sure. I haven't lost that. You know, when you were scheduled to fight Ruise back in June of two thousand nineteen, a lot of people before that fight, we're talking about Deontay Wilder. Before this fight, people are talking about Tyson Fury and the possibility you'll face him in Have you learned from that experienced as as has that educated you at all how to kind of drown out what could be coming next and focus on what's right in front of you. Last last year, it was difficult then when I was about to fight Ruise. Remember I was that guy that was duck in everyone. I didn't want to fight Deonte wild I was going on different sports shows in America and They're saying, why are you ducking John World? And I'm like, I'm telling you now, I'm not, and I'm trying to explain myself. I'm fighting Ruiz in the background, so no one cares about Ruiz. So I'm just sitting there, like you know, when I'm in the ring, you can see in that corner. I'm not even interesting. I'm just like, why am I ben here? Like there's no there's no respect, there's no admiration for fighting these guys. And then when I lost her, I was like, wow, Ruise and you Rocky and he's listening. I'm like, but why wouldn't you give me that love for beating him? So it was like people were exing me out of the division. So I just learned to just focus on myself. You know, back then it was easy to live in my head rent free. You could tell me I was ducking Dante. I would have tried to back it up, um. But now I just learned to just focus on myself. Now, people know Dante wid admitted himself that he gave a few of the offer and he could have fought me, but he didn't want to. So now I'm just like, I don't have to prove myself anymore. That's why I feel more more settled within myself now. I'm sure you appreciated that. Yeah, Deante kind of throwing in in one of his rats that he could have made more money to fight you, basically confirming everything that you've been you and Eddie heard have been saying. Yeah, definitely leaving. Like Louis Ortiz. We offered to fight Louis Ortise. I offered to fight Dinner White and then Andrew Ruise. A man respected the boy. He stepped up. We offered to fight. We felt farm gonna fight jeral Miller, you know. And look, I'm keen to fight anyone. What does it do. It just gives me an opportunity to test myself. And that's why I could pool. It's not so much about the financial loss or the financial gain. It's just let me get out this year because it's been a long time out of the ring. Let me just test myself and see how much I've learned from that Ruise lost because I lost to Ruise. I rematched Ruise and this is the first fight that isn't Ruise in a year. So it's like, let me just get back on the gravy train and get back to my old ways of you know, showcasing what I can do. It will be a bit more technical. Hopefully I would have improved and become smarter, but it was. It will be with that mindset of I want to hit this guy and I want to hurt you know. That's what my game planning. Yeah, and look it's it's a good fight. I mean, I've said Pool have earned this mandatory position with what he's done since that Vladimir Klitchko lost many years ago. Uh Is it it all hard for you though? All that being said about focusing on Pool v I mean, you versus Fury is like the biggest fight in British boxing history. It is a fight that will probably put a hundred thousand fans god willing in the stadium in the UK if you fight there. I mean, is it hard not to think about that stuff? It is hard not to. But remember what what I've learned is that none of these guys live in my head no more. I just know that with all that stuff with world I went through you last year three with even It's like Fury and Worlder came together to try and knock me out in the division. It was like both of them came together to say I'm the weak Lincoln the division. So back then I was always trying to but bout myself and be like no I'm this, I'm that, um, furious this and furious that. But now I don't really When Furies ready, he knows where to find me. When wild is ready, he knows where to find me, and I'm going to sit here and continue on my path until they're ready. As I said Wilder, last year we offered Louis Ortiz. Last year we offered Jerome Miller. Last year we offered Dylan White, last year we offered and who's last year we offered. That's a good roster of names that we tried to bring to the heavyweight division. We didn't fight. No, no, I'm not going to mention any other heavyweights names to disrespect them. The other heavyweights out there are fighting lower tier opponents, and then they're telling me that I don't want to challenge myself. So all I know is I know who I am. I like challenges, and I'm willing to fight these guys. So when these guys are ready, they know where to find me. Explained to me the picture that surfaced over the summer of you and Fury crossing paths on vacation. How did that happen? So it's like, you know, in Europe, one of the countries were open, so you was allowed to travel there. So I took a break ten day break over to get some sign and to do some warm weather training. Et cetera. So I'm walking down it's like the port where all the shops are and stuff like that, and it's a one way traffic so cars are only about to go in one direction, but customers allowed to walk up and down the street. And then I see some guy in the range rover and then he's kind of wound down the window. You know. Then when you're creeping up and the window comes out and there's an oar tyson fury, it's like, how are you doing? Mush? So we had a quick five minute conversation, you know, all respect, but you know what it is if I go off of what I feel. The conversation is about we're gonna fight one day. So just I'm here like I'm not going anywhere. That's the kind of conversation. So even though it's about respect, and he's with his family and with a couple of my cousins and my palths, it's just one of them things that I'm looking at him and he's talking to me as to say, one day we're going to get on. You gotta love the new narrative though, you know, a year and a half ago, Deontay Wilder was going to knock you out. Now, Tyson Fury is going to outbox you. You you clearly can't win. No, I really, I know it's weird, but I think I've come to learn this year. I've just got one of them faces that people love to hate. I swear, but it understanding that has made me tougher. The stuff I went through last year with my loss, the stuff I went through with being black labeled and being called like so many ducks the heavyweight division, and then Wilder admitting that we gave him an offer, it just made me realize that all I have to do is focus on myself, and I don't worry about no one else. What I worry about it myself. Before I let you go, you were, as you said, pretty well thrashed last year after the Ruise lost. But I mean you took it like a man. You took it on the chin. You congratulated Andy Ruise, you went back to work, and you beat him six months later. I'm wondering what your reaction was, you know, kind of watching Wilder unraveled over the last six months as he blamed everyone, cited conspiracy theories, said the referee was drunk. I mean, as you're watching that what did you think? He didn't even have it as tough as I did. I had like fight is telling me I should never take the immediate rematch with Ruise, but it's telling me that Ruise is the next best thing coming out of America. Fights, telling me if I lose, I should retire. You know, Andre Wards saying that you know, I'm just a jack tup heavyweight and I need to focus some on my box in And a lot of people were cussing me about and it's like they just ignored everything I've done for the division, everything I've done for the amateur seen as well, and it was just like I'm just some heavyweight that just looks good that he is trying to fight. And I was like, wow, this is what the division think of me. So he he comes from a place of he's the hardest constresses and his shavers. He's this is that he took his loss. No one really disrespect to him and told him he should quit. No one said anything, but I think that he couldn't live with it himself. So he's now come out and like that's just the way he's expressing it to himself. In a while, and he just can't get over it, like Tyson Fury hasn't been too to vocal about it. The boxing grades and legends and icons of the industry haven't said anything to negative towards the Wilder. It's only when he come out of all of his excuses that they're saying like he's just talking too much. That's all they're saying about him. So he's lucky, but he just doesn't know how to handle the responsibilities of being a champion. And it just shows that when it's all setting down and he retires, will be interesting to see what party goes down because without boxing, he ain't got no backbone. And just last question for the the you know you are are defending your title against POOLV. The fight against Joshua everybody's hoping is for under sputed. It's possible the w b A will say you gotta fights next. Tell me what matters to you. Does it matter to you for that fight to be for undisputed or are you willing to drop a belt to make that fight happen next? In my heart of hearts, I don't think I'll drop a belt. I think I'll fight you sick, no problem, um. But I feel like the government body should overrule h a mandatory for an undisputed fight if they could so if they were keen to get its own disputed fight. And I'm sure they'll say, look, who's it right now? We have the undisputed championship for the world fight coming together, which overrides a mandatory SA. But what I mean is that what it's hard to try and um, you know, put undisputed fights together last year. This year has been a bit up and down, and I have to really focus on poo leave and then hopefully next year we can then look, you know, two years on from twenty nineteen, hopefully me and a few you can finally get it on and hopefully the governing bodies will see and then say, you know, we'll all right the mandatory position so you can compete for the underste champiship of the world. I think you should fight for the bridger weight title. Actually is that the is that the one in between? That's the one in between. It's so stupid. That's the one that wanted to everybody's turning it down. Though Michael Hunter said he wouldn't want to do it, like nobody wants to do it. Sooner or later, someone will sooner or later. Oh, they're all dumb though, It's all it's such a stupid title. A J A J. Always great to talk to you, man, looking forward to your fight on Saturday, December twelve, catch that fight on his own. Good luck, man, and we'll talk to very much all right. Eric Draft is a two time Emmy winning director and his latest project is a terrific One Macho The Hector Macho Camacho Story, which tells the story of the life and tragic death of one of the most charismatic figures in boxing. The documentary is currently airing on Showtime and can be seen on Showtimes on demand platforms. And Eric joins me here on the show. Eric, thanks for joining me. Thanks so much for having me Chris. All right, So, as with any project, there's gotta be sort of an impetus to it, right, Like why Macho Camacho? Well, you know, Camacho was one of those fighters that when I was a kid, and you know, growing up, especially being from New York City myself and he was from Spanish Harlem. He was just one of those guys that like popped out of the TV, you know, one of those guys that really transcended the sport. You know, he was like brass. He was so much charisma. You know, his outfits were over the top. He was in your face and he was really you know, it was it was really fun to watch him. So, you know, just as a fan, as a kid, I was always really impressed with him and uh. And then when I was a journalist, I got to cover him in against Leonard I was working at Fox and UH, and it was great to be around him and he just like filled the room and uh. And at that point I also met his promoter, Michael Akery, who was one of the quiet giants uh in this sport. He was Camacho's promoter. He was a Rand's promoter, just a great guy, one of my very dear friends. And you know, so I got to meet him then. And then I took a turn in my career and I started working in boxing. I woind up representing a whole lot of fighters working in the sport, working with a lot of promoters. And I met Hector Jr. Who in his own right as a great champion and a great guy. So I knew the family and UM, and then when he was murdered, I was like wow. I mean, you know, I always knew he lived on the edge, but and and that you know, there was always a little sense of day, there was always a sense of danger about his life. UM. But his murder was just, you know, it was just it really took me for you know, it really got me down. And I was actually in Panama interviewing Berto Duran at the time for No Maas, which was on ESPN, and I remember asking It was a couple of months after his murder, and I asked Duran, well, you know, what do you think of when you heard about Camacho getting killed? And he started to tear up. And I knew right then that if Roberto Duran, you know, the toughest Latino fighter and the history of boxing, arguably maybe Chavez, you know, there's a couple others, but you know, right up there, if he would all of a sudden start crying and start getting so worked up that that Camacho's death had a major impact. UM. I did do a little filming in in Puerto Rico with this son, but I put the project down. I had a whole host of other things coming up, and about two and a half years ago, I was like, listen, I can't believe nobody's ever done, had done this story. I didn't want this unbelievable character to be lost in the history of you know, the sport, uh, and not be celebrated again. And I knew that there was this question about his murder and it was still on samb. I couldn't believe seven years after his murder at that time it's now eight um that his murder was unstabbed and uh. You know, it was a pretty easy connection to talk to Showtime and they got it right away and uh, and it was two years ago basically now we started with the project. You know, it's it's not unique for boxers to be the kind of people where their lives can go two very different directions at a certain point in time. And Camacho certainly exemplifies that. And you covered this in in the documentary where Milokey was in jail at age sixteen. I mean, him becoming a world championship boxer, it seems as just as likely to him being serving a life sentence or being dead even earlier than when he passed away. And you know, Chris is such a good point because we've seen this in other sports with other athletes. It's like they're on the press of us of either greatness or you know, jail or you know the streets, and and you know, it's such a testament to his talent that he was able to hold it together for so long. I mean he had almost eighty four I think he had eighty four fights. It's unbelievable the length of his career. And he only got knocked to the campus twice, never knocked out. Um. But yeah, you're right. I mean, you know, from Spanish Harlem, from the projects, you know, the streets were very allering. You know, when you're when you're a young kid and you've got nothing, and the guy on the corner says, you know, go move this package for me, or do this or that, and I'll give you a hundred bucks and that's more than your parents are bringing home, you know, in a week. At that time, you know, it's very allering. And and then god, you know, he found boxing, and there are a couple of mentors and coaches early on in his career that that saw his talent and helped him get to where he was. Yeah, there's a period of time when when Sugar Ray tired that you could probably argue that Hector Camacho was the best fighter of the world. You know, in the early to mid uh nineteen eighties. You know, when you look at how his his prime years went, like how much did he leave on the table because of whether it's drugs or associating with the wrong people, which is something boxing boxers do as you know all the time, how much did he leave on the table as a fighter? Well, first, I want to agree with you, like night six, right at the Rosario fight. You know, if you look at the Rosario poster and the original poster, there's a great artwork of Camacho and on the undercard is Julio says our job as and Mike Tyson. So in nineteen six, you're right, you know, it was Macho time. I mean he owned the sport. Um. And as far as what he left on the table, it's hard to tell. I mean, you know, he was one of those guys that would party, then stop training, fight, and then as soon as the fight was over, it was party time. Um. You know, he held it together as best as he could. Um. But again it's a testament to his unbelievable world class talent that he could do that and get away with that. UM. So, I don't know, maybe he would have had. You know, he probably if he didn't do drugs and didn't have that lifestyle, he would have had a better record. Um, but I don't know that his career would have necessarily meant more. I don't think Camacho's career is defined by wins and losses. I think it's defined as a real pioneer and trend setter. He was completely authentic inside and outside of the ring. He believed in the costumes he was wearing in the ring, and he could just as comfortably walk through the ropes and into the crowd with that outfit and walk home with that at the fine In fact is uh. His next wife, Baby told us a couple of funny stories. I can tell you one real quick. One um that didn't make the movie. She said she was you know, there was a couple of things. But she said, like there were nights that she didn't want to go out with him because he had more fishing net on than him than she did, and she's like, I'm not going out with him like this. And then she said, you know, one time they were in a in a shoe store and he goes, oh, Amy, I really liked those shoes, and the clerk over here and says, oh, those are for women. They walk outside of the store, he gives her his Amy two and says, go get me those in size ten. You know. So he he loved the dramatic, he loved the flair, and and he would wear that outside unabashed. You know. With covering boxing the last twenty years, you know, I've seen or saw Floyd Mayweather whether make the turn from I don't want to call him a hero early in his career, but from a hero esque type figure to a villain. And that was intentional on the part of Floyd Mayweather. Camachos didn't seem like it was intentional when when he sort of turned into this bill and his figure people want people booed from the one that was extremely popular. It just seemed like that happened organically. How did that turn happen for Hector Camacho? I think there you could if you look back now, you could see like two main reasons how he went from the hero to the villain. One was his boxing style, I mean, you know, and it was that Rosario fight too, where you can actually look back. He got rocked. He won the fight, he got rocked, and he went from being a fighter to a dancer, and he, man, could he dance. He had unbelievable legs and some of the greatest fighters have the best footwork and the great greatest legs. And he and and a lot of his fans left him. They said, you know, we want a Chad as we wanted Toro Gaddy. We want a guy that's just gonna stand there and brawl. And that was in Camacho. That's probably why a lot of people don't like Mayweather. I mean Mayweather, you know, once in a while he put on a boxing clinic, but his his style is is pretty boring to watch. He's an amazing act and a great defensive fighter, but that's not the kind of boxing that most fans want to see. And then the other thing was that is just, you know, with the trouble, he started getting into the antics outside of the rings, people stopped, you know, thinking like, oh, this is okay, this is okay. I mean, he had some serious defenses. You know, he got you know, their drug charges, Um, there was you know, domestic abuse charge. You know, there were things that people started to say, you know, uh, not my guy anymore. So, but those same problems are also what made him relatable and what made him so appealing to many Puerto Rican fans out there where he wasn't Trinidad or Kodo or Vasquez. You know, he didn't have maybe that same same talent or winds, so to speak. But he he's felling in public and people could relate to him. And so he became what what lou Dabella called, and he's one of our executive this is called him the hero of the streets. And that's really what he was. And it was that those same streets that lifted him up and made him for who he was, that ultimately brought him down. What do you mean by that, Well, he could never get out of the streets. I mean he loved people. He loved just laughing and and being affable and hugging people and touching people and signing autographs and you know, being amongst people. And he felt a kinship to the people that he was, you know, brought up with. And he never looked down his nose. You know, early on his career, he was still living in with his mother and the projects, even when he won his first you know belt. You know, so he was really a man of the people. And I think that's why he was that hero of the streets and even at the end he's undoing. You know, he was very comfortable going out. He felt so confident in himself, like, who's gonna kill Macho? Camacho and Puerto Rico right now is a very dangerous place, and the younger generation didn't take to him so kindly. Uh, and it's more violent than I think he he estimated. And uh, you know, there's only one third of all murders gets solved there. So you know, the fact is is that if Puerto Rico can't solve the murder of their hero of their streets, that whose murder can they solve? So let's talk about that for a minute. You you say that the younger generation didn't take to Camacho too kindly, And in the documentary, you uh, you know, show the first world title fight that took place in Puerto Rico and it talks about that that you know, Camacho is Puerto Rican by descent, but not necessarily embraced as as the native son. How would you describe the dynamic between Camacho and his native country. Well, you know again, and this is what I learned this making the film. There's there's there's a type of a term called New York Ricans, and the New York Rican uh is someone that's born in Puerto Rico but moves to New York or is uh born in New York but is Puerto Rican, And they call him New York Ricans as opposed to island Puerto Ricans. And at first they didn't accept people of the island didn't really accept him. You know, Trinidad as a Puerto Rican born in Puerto Rico. Quoto is born in Quarte, Puerto Rico. UM. But it's hard for someone born in New York to capture the minds and and and heart, hearts and soul of the the Puerto Ricans on the island. And he was able to do that when he beat Lamon but zookal Lemon for the title in Puerto Rico. That was his moment. That was his coming out moment, and you know it was brilliant of Don King, you know, promoted it there, one of the best promoters ever maybe you know, in just a sense of understanding where to put fights on, who put them on again and Uh and that was really his big homecoming. So as you start to get into the death of Camacho and I was reading that. You know, going to bay Arne was your first your first stop in kind of preparing for this documentary. What did you know and what did you learn about, you know, his killing? Well, we learned a lot, and in fact, this was the most difficult documentary I've done to date. Um I did a whole version which is just about the investigation. I mean, we went to some really scary places. Uh you know, we were uh you know, we we were held up at one place where a guy came out. We were driving down this road and another car comes in front of us, stops us. Guy comes at the window, goes roll down the window. I'm like, I'm not rolling down the window. Roll down the window. He showed you, lift up his shirt and shows me a piece. You know, I'm born and raised in New York City. I've never seen a gun on the street. I thought there. Of course I rolled down the window. We were lucky to have Hector Jr. There who quit thinking blah blah blah blah blah in Spanish, and he said, okay you could go, but no cameras. But you know there was there was another time like that too, with our armed cards. So what did I learned I learned not only how dangerous it is, but there's a lot more to the story. There was really bad police work. Um. You know, the two suspects, the two hit men, got through uh you know, they had a chase with the with the police and got away. Um. The police finally went back to get the car, and the car had been moved so they couldn't get the forensics. Um. And this was done in broad daylight. So you know, the film talks about the different theories, but there's a lot more information out there. And um, there's a good chance that at this point the police know who did it. So it's an active investigation and we and I didn't want to tell too much in order to hamper the investig aation. Of course, did it surprise you as you learned all the things that you learned that this case was still unsolved. I mean, a figure as prominent as Camacho, that something like this could go unsolved up at this point, Yeah, And I mean, you know, and and again you know, we have footage going to the police and they gave every excuse. Well, Maria happened and a lot of the suspects left the island. Uh, you know, you know, as recently, as you know, the government with the protest, you know, the government was basically you know, uh, you know, stepped down. A lot of the governor resigned and and so you know, there's so many excuses to why. But but now it seems like the point of the the FBI, uh, you know, is involved and and things are changing. So you know, we can really hope that that our work. And sometimes it's the press just showing up with a camera. Oh yeah, it reminds them that there are people that care about this and we're watching you, and you better do your job because you know, you've got a country to protect, and you know, this is one of your heroes. Before I let you go, the you kind of touched on this a little bit with his you know, talking about him being a trend setter and a pioneer. But what is Hector Camacho's legacy in boxing? He was a very good boxer at times a great boxer. You probably don't consider one of the great of all time necessarily, But as far as legacy goes, how would you define it? You know, I might, I might put him in the grade of all times because he thought everybody, you know, when I when I first started, you know, you know, one of the things that we were up against. You know, one of the we talked to another network and they were like, oh, well, you know, why is he so important? You know, and and can you give us the beats, the story beats of the documentary. Well, you know, you can't give story beats of a documentary. You know, a documentary is you've got a story, and then you gotta trust that we're gonna go out and tell it and find out new information. So you know that. But but when you go to his legacy, he fought everybody. It was a totality of his fight. He didn't and he never got knocked down, and he went toe to toe, and the lifestyle he had, he still was able to hang with these guys. So to your earlier question, he probably would have got more winds had the lifestyle not been part of his you know, training and his career so much. But ultimately, I think what he brought to the sport was a level of attention that the sport needs. You know, right now, I'm sorry to say, but the probably the biggest fight of the year was Tyson Roy Jones Jr. You know, and that's a commentary because Tyson transcends the sport. We need the Camachos, we need the Tysons, We need those personalities to get people to watch the sport because just good boxing alone, unfortunately is not enough. I mean, you know, it's something, but we want to we want to celebrate our heroes who want to know other stories, and we want to know that there's something relatable that they have. Maybe they have a flaw, maybe they've gone had some obstacle, and those are the things that make us really care about the people and the the athletes we watch. And I think that's why a lot of people now may be excited about guys like Ryan Garcia, Tafia Me Lopez, even Javonte Davis, young guys that may have that that charisma and certainly the desire to face the best and to change boxing for the better. Eric it's a terrific documentary. You can check it out on Showtime on all the Showtime on demand platforms. Uh start to finish this gripping man. Thanks up, thanks for taking up time to join me. Thank you, thanks so much, Chris really appreciate it. All Right, that's it for this week's episode. My thanks to my guests. As always, subscribe to the podcast over at Apple Podcast. Great review. You know I appreciate it, and I'll see you next week.