71: Unlocking the Transformative Power of Play with Sally Haughey

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Today on Blooming Curious, we have the
very special Sally Haughey She's the
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founder and CEO of fairy dust teaching
now called Wunderled and a passionate
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advocate for early years educators
embracing a play-based philosophy with
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a teaching journey that began in 1996.
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Sally draws inspiration from
many approaches like Waldorf
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and Reggio Emilia In two.
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In 2010, she established fairy dust
teaching, and today it has grown into
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a vibrant global community of over
240,000 educators across 120 countries.
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Sally's strong dedication lies
in empowering educators to unlock
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the transformative power of play,
nurturing children's imagination.
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And curiosity.
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Welcome to Blooming Curious Sally, it is
wonderful to have you here today sharing
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your amazing passion with all of us.
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Ha, I am so excited.
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So thank you for having me.
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Oh, I'm so excited for having you.
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Listen, I want you to share with
everybody, we've just had a chat off
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record, but I want you to share with them.
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What inspired you to start
fairy Dust teaching and how
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did it evolve into Wunderled
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Yeah, so I started fairy dust teaching
really as a. Passionate stand for
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children globally out of my own struggles
when I was a child and then my son
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had similar struggles and I knew that
the, as Seth Godin calls, the factory
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model of education wasn't working.
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And in fact.
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In terms of building of our own
identities, it was damaging.
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So, you know, I began to just do a
little bit online and I was blown away.
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I have to tell you, I, I started like six
different blogs just trying to find my
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way, and, uh, finally hit with Fairy dust
teaching and I had been Waldorf trained,
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so I was sharing Waldorf activities.
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I kind of was still.
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Not quite sure how to share my passion.
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So it came through projects
and things like that.
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But what kind of took my breath away
is the first time I made an offering
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about how to be with children.
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And because it was fairy dust, I
called it, um, a dash of wonder
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as I think is what I called it,
is how many people signed up.
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And from there it just became like.
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It was like throwing seeds on
the ground that began to blossom.
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So it was just going along
beautifully and I had had several
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iterations of the websites.
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Of fairy Dust I was in the
process of, it was so funny,
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like whatever mood hits, right?
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Like I'm, oh, it's been so fairy
like maybe I should go MoMA, you
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know, contemporary artist look.
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'cause I am an artist by, you
know, went to college for art.
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Um, and I was in the middle of that
in Covid trying to redesign my website
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and I had a dream And In the dream,
someone hands me a magazine and it
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says, wonder Led and it's the most
beautiful magazine I get teary eyed.
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It was like so vivid I could see
it like it was an actual lived
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experience in my dream and I woke
up and I knew I had to create that.
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It was.
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And I think sometimes it's
like Fairy Dust teaching.
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I'm not really sure what
will happen with that site.
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I keep it there.
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You know, it's like a child.
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I don't wanna let go of it, but I'm
so excited about Wunderled and, and.
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The future it holds.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So you didn't just decide just to
change the name like I have, you just
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changed the name, kept the site, and
let grow and evolve, but just changed
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the name you decided to keep both.
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Yeah.
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It's a lot of work.
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It is.
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But you know, there's, it's, they're
living, you know, this is the
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part of being a conscious mm-hmm.
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Entrepreneur is that
there actually works of.
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Art for me.
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They're actually, yeah, an expression
of my heart, and I can't kill that.
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You know?
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I can't take it away
and say it wasn't there.
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I need to, like, I know one day
I'll wake up from another dream.
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I know something, or someone will say
something, you know, because again,
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I'm a creative first and foremost.
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I paint, I draw, I write.
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And I know that work of art will have its
purpose, but it's a living thing to me.
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'cause it still serves people.
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I.
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Exactly, and it is beautiful and I'm,
I dabble all around there very often
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and it is just such a beautiful place.
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So absolutely keep them both, Sally.
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Just keep them both until why
not You have another dream?
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Another dream.
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Exactly.
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Tell me what's the core philosophy behind
Wunderled and how it supports curiosity
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driven and wonder based teaching?
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'cause I know that that's your
passion, but what's, what's that
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core that that drives Wunderled
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I would, you know, I, I love that
question because I think this is
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really important that for me, children
are born with this innate desire.
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And actually it's a drive to be
curious and to wonder and to have awe.
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It, it actually, in my
opinion, drives development.
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I think it's, it's been
inside of us to have us.
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It's, you know, like whatever it is
that's driving the flower to bloom,
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curiosity is driving the child to stand.
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Driving the child to speak, driving
the child to run, driving the child
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to, you know, it's like, it's the
drive that gives us everything.
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It's what drives me.
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Absolutely.
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You know, it's the drive behind passion.
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It's the drive behind innovation.
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It's the drive behind anything we do as
humans that takes it to the next level.
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That's evolutionary.
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You know, we need curiosity to
meet the needs of our our planet.
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So I think what I stand for is to stop
killing it in young children, to stop
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denying the drive and instead support it.
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We have classrooms globally.
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There are absolutely stifling the
very thing children need most, and
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I think it's because it's easier.
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To control and dominate and tell
children, you know, it's easier
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for the machine to process them.
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You know, it takes something to be
a present, fully alive educator in
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the classroom that's not checked out.
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I've just suddenly had this
wave of sadness wash over me
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as you spoken those words.
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How do you,
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so how did you, I mean, you've obviously
had these, your passion and your drive
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like myself is for curiosity and both
of us feel so strongly that that drive.
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That's really been driven out.
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Absolutely.
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We are fighting to keep that
drive alive because without
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curiosity, we have nothing.
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'cause curiosity is the
foundation of learning, you know?
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Mm-hmm.
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Just yesterday, I was thinking to myself.
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And we were talking about this
earlier, children now have
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this access to technology.
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But the great minds today, the
great creators, the great problem
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solvers today did not have
technology when they were growing up.
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They were readers and um.
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Creators and problem solvers and probably
pushed boundaries and read ferociously
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and worked with their hands and explored
and tried out their little thoughts and
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ideas, but they did not have technology.
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They were driven by play an
exploration in the real world.
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And so I want to ask you is
how did this play led learning
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become your cornerstone approach?
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Was it just this this desirable,
this undying fire in you that
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you wanted this for children?
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What made you decide, this is it,
this is what I'm going to follow?
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I think, you know, I had a lot of
different experiences as an educator.
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Everything from private education
to a government funded, you know,
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establishment to public school.
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And when I was in kindergarten,
you know, they hired me in
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as a kindergarten teacher.
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I was hired to teach the children to
read and all those academic things.
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Right.
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And I was curious, I had been.
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Primarily play-based.
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I had a curiosity.
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What would it be like to be
in a highly academic setting.
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The team that I went on to with
were very much academic, but
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beautiful human beings, you know?
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So I walked into a climate of
love, which is really important.
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Who, you know, when they saw me
doing all of my things that were
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different than what they were doing,
they'd say, you're so cute, you know?
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They were accepting and I,
you know, forever grateful.
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Um, but what I saw when I implemented
some of the academic things was
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the light go out in the children's
eyes and I began to see, you know,
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what is this at five years old?
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There's this shutting down another
child was this one little boy
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still, just again, those lived
moments that change you internally.
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This little boy was in my first
kindergarten class and he had been in
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foster homes and had been through trauma.
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And we were in, you know, it
was my first year, so I was
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taking them through a process.
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They were wanting us to do handwriting.
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So instead I was doing a guided drawing,
you know, I just felt like handwriting
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was too soon, too much, too quick.
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What can I do?
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I'd always look, what can I do
that fulfills the requirement, but
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isn't quite so inappropriate, you
know, like always balancing that.
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Even that, you know, 'cause I
would say we're all, everyone's
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drawing is gonna be different.
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It's meant to be different and we
don't wanna look like the others.
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You know, like really trying to set
them up and he broke down sobbing,
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saying, I can't, I can't do this.
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I was like, why does he have to do it?
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What is it about being five that he
cannot just follow his own curiosities,
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his own interest at this point?
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And I began to really work at bringing
in open play because I think the
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hard pill to swallow as an educator,
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is that this is not just a
child saying I can't do it.
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This is the formation of
his identity as a learner.
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This is his self-concept.
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This is who he sees in him himself as.
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At this age, so tender.
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Shouldn't he be in an environment
where what he experiences is the
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joy of learning, but instead the
system even adapted and accommodated.
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It's still being, you
have to do what I'm doing.
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You're saying such powerful things.
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My goodness.
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And so
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I feel for schools and educators
because there are people like you and
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I who, who see things this way, right?
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Mm-hmm.
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And perhaps there, those of us that
aren't scared to take on that challenge,
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but we're still, and educators are
still bound by curriculum demands.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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They're still bound by curriculum
demands and not everybody perhaps
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has, or is fortunate enough, like us
to just say, okay, we're starting our
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own website and we're going to do our
own thing for educators and children.
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So how can educators then in the classroom
that don't have the choice perhaps.
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Hmm.
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Of leaving, how are they gonna
balance this play, lead teaching
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with curriculum demands?
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What do we say to them?
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Well, when, yeah.
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So I'm gonna say, which I never thought
I'd say, but Covid changed my perspective.
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Like Covid was like a tuning
for, to me that went, boom.
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You know what, what matters
most is relationship.
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So I think no matter what.
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Play-based, traditional based, you
know, Montessori, academic, Reggio,
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whoever you are, the the tuning fork
is saying you've got to be related
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to the individual in front of you.
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You have to be tuned in,
you have to start there.
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Because Without being in
relationship with the child, how
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can you possibly support them?
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So I'm really almost
relationship based first.
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Play based second.
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Yeah.
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And I think the, the, what we're
seeing in the classroom demands this.
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I think we have to look at their needs.
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If a child is breaking
down, not self-regulating.
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Then we have to take on being curious.
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The educator's, the first
curious one in the room, right?
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Our curiosity allows us to, instead
of react, reflect I. You know,
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what can I do to help this child?
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I mean, I know classrooms around the
world right now are like teachers
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who've been in the room for 30 years
are saying it's never been like this.
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Be like this.
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Never.
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Absolutely.
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And so I think it's calling
for us to recalibrate.
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You know, I don't wanna, I don't
wanna sit on my ideals in the
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face of the call of the children.
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I am here in service of
the children, period,
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and I'm just thinking now as well.
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Of course you're absolutely 100% correct
with this, but I'm also now thinking,
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do you know what else is increased?
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Instead of us becoming perhaps curious
and asking those exact questions.
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If a kid isn't doing what the
rest are doing, it's now a
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question of can you please make an
appointment with a pediatrician?
00:16:44.760 --> 00:16:44.790
Mm,
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yep.
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And I understand being in a classroom,
that it is really, really difficult.
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Now things have changed.
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Things have changed and it's really
difficult to be in a classroom of 30 kids
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and having so many different needs and
so much demand being placed on teachers
00:17:11.919 --> 00:17:14.359
and having, you know, so many
00:17:15.109 --> 00:17:20.239
different education plans even to meet the
needs of different children and different
00:17:20.239 --> 00:17:25.550
children's needs that I think for teachers
now, they're really just trying to get
00:17:25.550 --> 00:17:29.300
through the day right, in one piece.
00:17:30.110 --> 00:17:35.689
Um, and so how do we really get to
this place where we can encourage
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teachers to trust themselves and
trust children's natural curiosity.
00:17:44.195 --> 00:17:50.675
And allow for unstructured exploration
in a classroom, and as we are talking,
00:17:50.675 --> 00:17:59.254
especially early childhood primary, that
meets the needs of all children because
00:17:59.675 --> 00:18:03.395
not everybody is ready at the same time.
00:18:03.725 --> 00:18:09.605
Not every child in kindergarten or first
grade or second grade is ready for the
00:18:09.605 --> 00:18:12.905
demands that a curriculum expects at that
00:18:13.745 --> 00:18:14.555
year level.
00:18:15.845 --> 00:18:23.254
So how do we encourage them to teachers to
say, follow the child when they are still
00:18:23.254 --> 00:18:29.045
so much under the control of education
departments, districts, um, in the
00:18:29.045 --> 00:18:32.105
states, for example, the administrators.
00:18:32.645 --> 00:18:34.655
It's a hard call to make, isn't it?
00:18:35.524 --> 00:18:35.915
It is.
00:18:35.915 --> 00:18:41.675
And I do think our own
wellbeing is crucial and that
00:18:41.725 --> 00:18:44.935
you have to find what's
gonna work for you.
00:18:44.935 --> 00:18:49.525
So when I taught first grade, I only
did one year, my last year of teaching,
00:18:49.765 --> 00:18:51.595
it was a very challenging year.
00:18:52.269 --> 00:18:57.999
And I had, after lunch, I agreed,
I got the principal to agree.
00:18:58.149 --> 00:18:59.919
You know, 'cause you have
to negotiate these things.
00:18:59.919 --> 00:19:00.189
Absolutely.
00:19:00.189 --> 00:19:04.659
You don't want administration walking in
the room, you know, and go, wait a minute,
00:19:05.050 --> 00:19:08.709
um, to agree to give me unstructured play.
00:19:08.889 --> 00:19:14.050
And during that time I would have my
one-on-one with children, you know?
00:19:14.050 --> 00:19:17.019
So I gave a really, I think
sometimes we have to pull out
00:19:17.019 --> 00:19:19.389
really good arguments and.
00:19:19.794 --> 00:19:24.895
That was a really good argument that
she could completely have buy-in with.
00:19:25.495 --> 00:19:30.294
The other thing that I found really
important in my own wellbeing
00:19:30.564 --> 00:19:34.824
is to keep a work home boundary.
00:19:35.725 --> 00:19:35.905
Yes.
00:19:35.905 --> 00:19:39.054
And when I didn't do that,
I paid for it greatly.
00:19:39.895 --> 00:19:41.485
I struggle with that.
00:19:41.485 --> 00:19:44.004
I still struggle with that greatly.
00:19:44.965 --> 00:19:45.595
Um.
00:19:46.525 --> 00:19:49.675
I think we, every individual is different.
00:19:49.675 --> 00:19:54.505
There's no recipe other than, you
know, you have to have the oxygen
00:19:54.505 --> 00:19:58.375
mask on first and that you are enough.
00:20:00.475 --> 00:20:03.835
You know that you have to look in
the mirror and go, you are enough.
00:20:04.855 --> 00:20:09.325
You are the pilot of the plane.
00:20:10.060 --> 00:20:14.110
You know, you need the oxygen mask,
not because you're the hostess.
00:20:14.110 --> 00:20:20.409
Because you are the pilot and that,
you know, I, I literally, I, I think
00:20:20.409 --> 00:20:24.039
this is something that we don't talk
about enough, so I love that you
00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:28.629
brought this up, is that we have to
find our own way of finding the way.
00:20:29.334 --> 00:20:32.274
So, you know, for me, I
would get really creative.
00:20:32.274 --> 00:20:38.215
I might draw, um, different ways that I
could bring literacy into the classroom.
00:20:38.455 --> 00:20:41.455
That allowed a more open-ended way.
00:20:41.574 --> 00:20:49.854
One thing that I did discover in my
time early on, like in 2005, I was a
00:20:49.854 --> 00:20:55.284
bar part of a arts integration movement,
and I was sent to Brown University
00:20:55.284 --> 00:20:57.895
and took part in this great pd.
00:20:58.420 --> 00:21:04.990
And what I brought was having discussions
with children to make the decisions
00:21:04.990 --> 00:21:07.780
with me about how we would move forward.
00:21:09.430 --> 00:21:14.560
And I think if the children
can feel that agency of their
00:21:14.560 --> 00:21:19.390
voice, I would say sometimes in
kindergarten, I go, okay, today.
00:21:19.959 --> 00:21:23.830
The district and I explained what
the district was and what all the
00:21:23.830 --> 00:21:25.779
children in Oklahoma were doing.
00:21:26.050 --> 00:21:26.139
Mm-hmm.
00:21:26.379 --> 00:21:29.080
This is what we're having, what
we're supposed to do today.
00:21:29.350 --> 00:21:31.899
This is my idea, what's yours?
00:21:32.379 --> 00:21:38.080
And by, by the end of the year, they
literally were helping to design what
00:21:38.080 --> 00:21:40.269
it is we were gonna do in the classroom.
00:21:41.529 --> 00:21:42.669
They were driving it.
00:21:42.774 --> 00:21:45.100
It is not just with play.
00:21:45.715 --> 00:21:50.575
Play is also about creating
play is also about inventing.
00:21:50.815 --> 00:21:52.885
It's also about experimenting.
00:21:52.885 --> 00:21:58.735
It's also, so it's this multifaceted
amazing thing that we can bring
00:21:59.514 --> 00:22:02.035
conscious participation in.
00:22:02.665 --> 00:22:03.655
Does it make sense?
00:22:03.715 --> 00:22:05.335
It's like, absolutely.
00:22:06.745 --> 00:22:10.615
And so when we give those
children that, I mean the voice,
00:22:10.915 --> 00:22:11.965
and I'll tell you one thing.
00:22:11.965 --> 00:22:13.375
I got a a note.
00:22:13.750 --> 00:22:20.470
Probably two years ago on Facebook
from a parent who I'd had in like 2007.
00:22:20.470 --> 00:22:25.840
And she goes, our family, you know,
of course the kids are grown, um, you
00:22:25.840 --> 00:22:30.880
know, at the time, uh, senior year
I think, or first year of college.
00:22:30.910 --> 00:22:31.000
Mm-hmm.
00:22:31.240 --> 00:22:34.900
And she said, we were in
Dallas at a museum, and Sam,
00:22:34.900 --> 00:22:36.790
our son, was looking at art.
00:22:37.615 --> 00:22:41.995
The art museum and giving us
this full expression of what
00:22:41.995 --> 00:22:43.795
he saw and what he thought.
00:22:44.035 --> 00:22:48.865
And he was extremely articulate
in the classroom and in
00:22:48.865 --> 00:22:50.725
that, what are we gonna do?
00:22:51.325 --> 00:22:55.735
Um, and they looked at each other,
the mother and father, and said,
00:22:55.885 --> 00:22:59.155
oh yeah, he had Mrs. Haughey Oh.
00:22:59.155 --> 00:23:04.885
Like the impact of that
discussion and that co-creation.
00:23:05.739 --> 00:23:11.139
You know, and he, he went on to
Princeton and he is a football player.
00:23:11.499 --> 00:23:12.519
You know, this football
00:23:15.610 --> 00:23:16.239
creative.
00:23:17.019 --> 00:23:18.489
And he's creative loving.
00:23:18.729 --> 00:23:19.719
Football player.
00:23:19.719 --> 00:23:20.290
Football player.
00:23:20.290 --> 00:23:20.679
That's okay.
00:23:21.669 --> 00:23:26.019
But I think this is like, I get
really upset because when we talk
00:23:26.019 --> 00:23:30.370
play-based, so many people have the
idea of these children running wild.
00:23:30.429 --> 00:23:30.939
Yes.
00:23:31.749 --> 00:23:34.254
You know, like that is, that's.
00:23:34.930 --> 00:23:36.100
Children running wild.
00:23:36.550 --> 00:23:38.390
That's not my idea of Play based.
00:23:38.650 --> 00:23:39.370
Play based.
00:23:39.520 --> 00:23:45.190
When I play, like anyone who thinks
that's play hasn't been playing recently.
00:23:46.660 --> 00:23:47.800
Yeah, that's running wild.
00:23:47.830 --> 00:23:50.890
That's being a headless chook
as they say here in Australia.
00:23:56.625 --> 00:24:00.310
Sally, do you know what, while you were
talking about children having agency.
00:24:01.585 --> 00:24:03.145
Having that bit of choice.
00:24:03.145 --> 00:24:03.565
Right.
00:24:03.565 --> 00:24:09.145
And it immediately made me think of one of
the problems we have, and I hear so many
00:24:09.145 --> 00:24:14.245
educators talk about it, and I've been,
you know, looking on, uh, Facebook groups
00:24:14.245 --> 00:24:20.425
and in subreddit groups, teachers lament
the fact that children are now disengaged.
00:24:20.425 --> 00:24:21.925
So disengaged, right?
00:24:22.375 --> 00:24:24.925
They're very engaged when you
put them in front of a computer
00:24:24.925 --> 00:24:27.625
screen, but they're very disengaged.
00:24:28.010 --> 00:24:31.550
When they're sitting in a classroom
listening to a teacher speak, and I do
00:24:31.550 --> 00:24:36.590
wonder whether that has something to do
with the fact that they have no agency.
00:24:37.129 --> 00:24:44.420
Because if they could have a say in what
they're doing, because you can still
00:24:44.420 --> 00:24:49.129
stick to your curriculum, but you can
give them a little bit of agency in terms
00:24:49.129 --> 00:24:53.840
of how are you going to produce this,
this project, or how are you going to
00:24:53.840 --> 00:24:59.590
show me, you know, your understanding
if you're An art lover, you might want
00:24:59.590 --> 00:25:01.570
to create a painting and talk about it.
00:25:01.600 --> 00:25:06.310
Or if you are a fabulous writer,
you might want to write a story or
00:25:06.310 --> 00:25:08.885
a drama or even just write a report.
00:25:09.215 --> 00:25:13.685
But to give children some agency
where they can express their own
00:25:13.685 --> 00:25:19.774
understanding and learning, but also
have a say in how they're going to
00:25:20.375 --> 00:25:25.355
show their learning or even in terms
of the topic that they want to explore.
00:25:25.925 --> 00:25:29.675
And you can still be meeting
your curriculum outcomes, but
00:25:29.675 --> 00:25:31.235
giving children some agency.
00:25:31.235 --> 00:25:38.275
And I really think that that solves
the problem of this lack of attention,
00:25:38.275 --> 00:25:43.735
this disengagement that so many people
are talking about in our classrooms.
00:25:43.765 --> 00:25:49.325
And I know that, the, our big
inquiry proponents for inquiry, like
00:25:49.325 --> 00:25:54.065
Trevor McKenzie for example, he talks
very much about this designing the
00:25:54.065 --> 00:25:55.235
learning together with children.
00:25:55.235 --> 00:25:55.325
This.
00:25:56.209 --> 00:25:57.769
This agentic learning.
00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:03.289
So I think that this is a really
powerful, a powerful strategy
00:26:03.289 --> 00:26:04.789
for getting children engaged.
00:26:04.789 --> 00:26:11.569
And yes, I think that many of us have
to actually stop a moment and focus
00:26:11.569 --> 00:26:13.639
on the relationships and just observe.
00:26:13.669 --> 00:26:17.899
And I remember being at university and
one of the lecturers saying, you know,
00:26:17.899 --> 00:26:20.179
when you start out teaching in that first.
00:26:20.549 --> 00:26:23.549
Your first year, that
first term of every year.
00:26:24.120 --> 00:26:27.929
Don't be so in a hurry to
start teaching the curriculum.
00:26:28.439 --> 00:26:34.080
Take some time to just observe, get
to know the children, build your
00:26:34.080 --> 00:26:38.249
relationships, and have a look at
what it is that they love to do
00:26:38.249 --> 00:26:42.059
and how they love to learning so
you can tap into what they know.
00:26:42.855 --> 00:26:46.875
But I think that once school starts,
you're bang, you're into it, right?
00:26:46.875 --> 00:26:48.915
That curriculum, you've gotta
get this done and that done
00:26:48.915 --> 00:26:49.965
and the next thing done.
00:26:51.195 --> 00:26:55.534
But you can do all of those things,
but just and breathe first.
00:26:55.534 --> 00:26:56.074
Yeah.
00:26:56.074 --> 00:27:00.814
And I think there's two chemicals
we have to remember at play here,
00:27:01.144 --> 00:27:02.915
but I think are really interesting.
00:27:03.544 --> 00:27:05.104
One is.
00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:12.169
I think the reason self-care is, is
non-negotiable for any educator listening.
00:27:13.069 --> 00:27:13.339
Absolutely.
00:27:13.339 --> 00:27:17.629
Like if you have to walk out of the room
and go home, at the end of the day you
00:27:17.629 --> 00:27:21.619
don't have time, then walk out of the
room and go home at the end of the day.
00:27:21.889 --> 00:27:32.629
Because we know on a neuroscience level
who you are as a, your state of being.
00:27:34.489 --> 00:27:39.109
Sets the climate through mirror
neurons of the classroom.
00:27:39.259 --> 00:27:40.999
You're enthusiastic.
00:27:41.239 --> 00:27:42.949
The children are enthusiastic.
00:27:43.099 --> 00:27:43.459
Absolutely.
00:27:43.459 --> 00:27:46.459
You're dragged out, the
children are dragged out.
00:27:46.819 --> 00:27:51.919
You're, you know, like our state,
you know, just be like, um, again,
00:27:51.949 --> 00:27:56.269
a pilot on a plane all grumpy and
yelling is gonna get us all upset.
00:27:57.469 --> 00:28:04.029
You know, I've been on planes where
the pilot was like, just amazingly
00:28:04.029 --> 00:28:07.869
present, talking, laughing, giggling
with us as we got onto the plane.
00:28:07.869 --> 00:28:12.039
Like it could have had horrid
turbulence and I would've
00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:14.529
been chill because of who was.
00:28:14.739 --> 00:28:17.469
And in the front I knew
I, I knew he was with me.
00:28:18.894 --> 00:28:18.985
Yes.
00:28:18.985 --> 00:28:22.704
And then the other brain science
piece I wanna bring in is
00:28:22.704 --> 00:28:25.644
engagement is a dopamine hit.
00:28:26.860 --> 00:28:30.159
And so, you know, I think about myself.
00:28:30.159 --> 00:28:35.289
Like there's things John's interested
in, and there is no dopamine happening
00:28:35.289 --> 00:28:39.639
in me when he's listening to a YouTube
video or he is telling me about this
00:28:39.639 --> 00:28:44.679
prehistoric whatever, and I'm just like,
you know, tell me right before bed so I
00:28:44.679 --> 00:28:50.499
can go to, sleep you know, and I think
children experience the same thing.
00:28:50.499 --> 00:28:55.209
What's so beautiful about choice
and play is we're activating
00:28:55.614 --> 00:28:57.474
engagement through dopamine.
00:28:57.474 --> 00:29:03.684
And so the thing that happens that in
play that, that I think is not really
00:29:03.684 --> 00:29:11.514
fully understood in public domain is
that when engagement has fully taken the
00:29:11.514 --> 00:29:17.334
child, they're going return to what they
did day after day after day after day.
00:29:18.294 --> 00:29:21.954
And with that, the dopamine
of reward is hitting.
00:29:21.954 --> 00:29:26.184
So they're like, yes, they're
focusing executive functioning.
00:29:26.334 --> 00:29:32.274
You know, executive functioning does
not develop without correct environment.
00:29:32.904 --> 00:29:37.494
I think children are not engaged
because they have not played,
00:29:38.544 --> 00:29:42.894
because play develops the
foundation of executive functioning.
00:29:43.449 --> 00:29:45.789
Through the dopamine hit of engagement.
00:29:46.479 --> 00:29:51.459
You know, like the child who wants to
go to blocks every single day and do the
00:29:51.459 --> 00:29:57.549
same, like they're planning, strategizing,
expanding what they did, bringing other
00:29:57.549 --> 00:29:59.919
kids in, you know, it's, it's huge.
00:29:59.919 --> 00:30:06.489
And this is what's young children
need to be prepared for academics.
00:30:06.969 --> 00:30:11.139
Toss out the worksheets, bring
out the dopamine, please.
00:30:12.609 --> 00:30:15.249
So really education needs a
whole new structure, right?
00:30:15.309 --> 00:30:16.479
Education needs.
00:30:16.479 --> 00:30:17.319
It does a revamp.
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:22.419
And so actually say, this is amazing
because this goes to my next question I
00:30:22.419 --> 00:30:29.259
wanted to ask you is how do you envision
the future of education to better align
00:30:29.259 --> 00:30:34.004
with the principles of curiosity and
wonder, which of course includes play.
00:30:34.599 --> 00:30:38.649
So if you were able to
go to the White House.
00:30:39.084 --> 00:30:47.424
Or be this worldwide influencer
to make real change happen.
00:30:47.484 --> 00:30:48.204
What would you do?
00:30:48.234 --> 00:30:49.134
What would you say?
00:30:49.134 --> 00:30:54.324
What would you, how do you think
we should get change happening
00:30:54.354 --> 00:30:55.944
for the benefit of our children?
00:30:58.194 --> 00:31:04.224
Again, it goes back to,
I would say we must.
00:31:04.734 --> 00:31:15.824
From the, from infancy through age nine,
the primary concern has to be serving the
00:31:15.824 --> 00:31:25.094
foundational needs of the children, the
need for certainty that they, they have
00:31:25.094 --> 00:31:30.104
certainty about the care and wellbeing of.
00:31:30.914 --> 00:31:35.684
Their own being in the classroom, that
they know they have an educator that
00:31:35.684 --> 00:31:37.664
cares who's gonna serve their needs.
00:31:37.904 --> 00:31:40.814
Do you know a little girl who
comes to the Hummingbird Cottage?
00:31:41.384 --> 00:31:42.914
My little play space?
00:31:43.184 --> 00:31:43.484
Oh, yes.
00:31:43.484 --> 00:31:46.454
You must talk about,
we must remember, yeah.
00:31:46.454 --> 00:31:48.194
To talk about Hummingbird Cottage.
00:31:48.314 --> 00:31:49.214
Very exciting.
00:31:49.214 --> 00:31:55.424
She, she was in a public preschool and
the Hummingbird Cottage is a play lab.
00:31:55.424 --> 00:31:58.034
It's not a full educational setting.
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:04.519
She came in and was really depressed
and her mother told me her teacher,
00:32:04.549 --> 00:32:10.279
because she was moping, her teacher
was withholding snack from her.
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:16.009
To me, this is grounds for being fired.
00:32:16.129 --> 00:32:17.989
You do not play with food.
00:32:18.259 --> 00:32:21.889
You know, it's like this, like
that is messing with her sense of
00:32:21.889 --> 00:32:25.159
certainty that her needs will be met.
00:32:26.164 --> 00:32:30.784
You know, the need to the the need
of significance to know that you
00:32:30.784 --> 00:32:37.174
matter, that if you fall on the floor
crying, that you're not viewed as
00:32:37.294 --> 00:32:42.574
someone who's trying to manipulate
the teacher, rather, you're viewed as.
00:32:43.999 --> 00:32:47.689
You're doing the best you can
to regulate, and right now
00:32:47.689 --> 00:32:49.249
you're trying to see if I care.
00:32:49.489 --> 00:32:51.919
You know, it's like, or you're crying.
00:32:51.979 --> 00:32:54.169
I mean, you have to figure
out what the message is.
00:32:54.169 --> 00:32:54.469
Right.
00:32:54.469 --> 00:32:54.619
That's
00:32:54.619 --> 00:32:57.229
all Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right?
00:32:57.289 --> 00:33:04.399
It is, and I think that until
we put this in place, what we're
00:33:04.399 --> 00:33:08.629
actually having in the us we had
another school shooting today.
00:33:09.709 --> 00:33:11.149
No, I haven't seen it.
00:33:11.149 --> 00:33:11.749
Yes.
00:33:12.049 --> 00:33:17.989
A female high school student, and
again, it goes back to, I would
00:33:17.989 --> 00:33:24.679
say, those, those students who have
taken those horrific actions did not
00:33:24.679 --> 00:33:29.449
get their needs met at home or at
school, and they're taking it out.
00:33:29.449 --> 00:33:38.749
And so I think that it's a crisis of
humanity that until we say the identity.
00:33:39.399 --> 00:33:46.774
and The joy of children matters
first, and we know the thing that
00:33:46.774 --> 00:33:52.985
we know is when we deal with those
foundational needs, as Maslow said.
00:33:53.314 --> 00:33:58.474
Then another way we put it is the,
if you look at the three brains
00:33:58.474 --> 00:34:04.774
survival, um, the mammalian brain
and the neocortex, you know.
00:34:05.914 --> 00:34:06.994
Survival.
00:34:07.054 --> 00:34:08.135
You're born with it.
00:34:08.434 --> 00:34:11.614
Baby screams for food, screams
for diaper to be changed.
00:34:11.854 --> 00:34:13.534
We're driven for survival.
00:34:13.864 --> 00:34:15.304
The limbic system.
00:34:16.385 --> 00:34:19.955
The second brain is where
early childhood is at.
00:34:20.885 --> 00:34:23.045
Children not regulated.
00:34:23.045 --> 00:34:23.764
Guess what?
00:34:23.764 --> 00:34:27.199
Normal, you know, that's our work.
00:34:28.564 --> 00:34:30.724
Children fighting normal.
00:34:30.844 --> 00:34:34.205
Our work is to teach conflict resolution.
00:34:34.205 --> 00:34:37.489
I. Children not knowing what to do.
00:34:38.779 --> 00:34:42.170
What we're doing is supporting
them, helping them make choice
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:45.019
like that whole limbic system.
00:34:46.220 --> 00:34:51.949
Children do not have access to the
neocortex until they have regulation.
00:34:52.790 --> 00:34:55.550
What person do you know
who's dysregulated?
00:34:55.880 --> 00:34:58.460
Who has access to thinking?
00:35:00.184 --> 00:35:00.964
No, no one.
00:35:02.734 --> 00:35:06.389
You know, it's, I, it just
sparked a little memory in me.
00:35:06.389 --> 00:35:09.659
I actually, I think I wrote a
blog post about it a while back.
00:35:10.439 --> 00:35:15.959
It was about looking at really violent
perpetrators and there was a scientist
00:35:15.959 --> 00:35:21.479
who and I can't remember the details,
sorry, that's my, um, menopausal brain.
00:35:21.559 --> 00:35:24.649
Um, but it's somewhere in a blog post
and I'll find it and put a link so
00:35:24.649 --> 00:35:25.909
that people can actually read it.
00:35:25.909 --> 00:35:26.209
Oh, nice.
00:35:27.769 --> 00:35:31.529
There was a researcher that went
and researched, , these very
00:35:31.529 --> 00:35:35.309
violent perpetrators, and he
actually discovered that none of
00:35:35.309 --> 00:35:37.109
them played in their childhood.
00:35:37.144 --> 00:35:37.434
They
00:35:37.434 --> 00:35:39.449
had Stuart, they were deprived of play.
00:35:39.449 --> 00:35:40.289
Was it Stuart Brown?
00:35:40.289 --> 00:35:40.619
Actually.
00:35:40.619 --> 00:35:41.039
Thank you.
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:42.449
I think that that that reminds me yeah.
00:35:42.449 --> 00:35:43.139
Stuart Brown.
00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:44.639
Massively important.
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:45.569
Absolutely, yes.
00:35:45.569 --> 00:35:49.469
They were deprived of play in childhood
and therefore became violent perpetrators.
00:35:49.949 --> 00:35:50.994
I mean, know that sounds common.
00:35:50.994 --> 00:35:54.209
It one of the very simplistic,
but it was a common thread
00:35:54.299 --> 00:35:55.859
across all of them, wasn't it?
00:35:55.859 --> 00:36:02.994
So what this study said that, um, as he
interviewed and looked at, you know, what
00:36:02.994 --> 00:36:10.524
was the common, like you said, thread is
that they had come from a home of trauma.
00:36:10.644 --> 00:36:10.944
Yeah.
00:36:11.244 --> 00:36:13.374
And two, they had not played.
00:36:13.929 --> 00:36:15.429
Yeah, those two things.
00:36:17.139 --> 00:36:18.879
And I think that's just shocking.
00:36:18.879 --> 00:36:19.209
You know?
00:36:19.209 --> 00:36:24.579
It's like, but I think if you really get
into the brain science of play, which
00:36:24.579 --> 00:36:29.409
most teachers don't have time to do, which
is why I love what I do, I get to break
00:36:29.409 --> 00:36:39.489
things down for people, um, is that play
is literally our innate drive to develop.
00:36:40.644 --> 00:36:46.764
It's, you know, we, we can delight
in infants and toddlers as the infant
00:36:46.884 --> 00:36:52.494
goes to, to, is being driven by play,
to crawl, to stand, to reach, to grab.
00:36:53.184 --> 00:36:55.974
We're like, yay, we, we
want them to come on.
00:36:56.094 --> 00:36:59.449
But the minute children get
articulate, they start speaking,
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:01.734
they start holding crayons.
00:37:01.854 --> 00:37:06.294
We wanna take it and strip it
of the innate drive and put in.
00:37:07.044 --> 00:37:12.234
Um, our fabric, you know,
our idea of what academic is.
00:37:12.474 --> 00:37:17.634
So I think if we could see that
it's not just the, the academic part
00:37:17.634 --> 00:37:21.054
really is the least of my concerns,
00:37:21.744 --> 00:37:23.454
because children will learn,
00:37:24.204 --> 00:37:25.434
they will learn.
00:37:25.434 --> 00:37:28.434
My son did not read until third grade.
00:37:28.644 --> 00:37:32.184
He graduated in the top of his class.
00:37:34.134 --> 00:37:38.574
There's signs that tell us if a
child, it's normal to start reading
00:37:38.574 --> 00:37:41.934
from anywhere of age three to age 12,
00:37:44.094 --> 00:37:45.924
and I do not understand.
00:37:47.394 --> 00:37:51.264
'cause really, if we want to
give childhood back to children
00:37:52.104 --> 00:37:54.984
to get them back to being happy.
00:37:55.494 --> 00:37:57.954
Really and curious.
00:37:58.374 --> 00:38:01.704
We need to delay formal learning.
00:38:02.754 --> 00:38:03.054
Yes.
00:38:03.054 --> 00:38:08.394
I was lucky enough when I was
growing up in South Africa, my very
00:38:08.394 --> 00:38:10.554
first year of formal education.
00:38:10.614 --> 00:38:15.114
Then it was called grade one,
which is now kindergarten, was
00:38:15.114 --> 00:38:17.154
the year that I turned seven.
00:38:17.874 --> 00:38:19.704
I was six going to school.
00:38:19.704 --> 00:38:21.054
My birthday's in August.
00:38:21.054 --> 00:38:23.034
I turned seven in that first year.
00:38:24.249 --> 00:38:30.729
I was ready and I did not come from a
family where my parents pushed me to
00:38:30.729 --> 00:38:32.679
read and write and do all these things.
00:38:33.309 --> 00:38:34.419
We just played.
00:38:35.019 --> 00:38:39.159
We literally, I played,
I drew, I loved drawing.
00:38:39.429 --> 00:38:41.049
There were books in the house.
00:38:41.049 --> 00:38:46.719
I loved reading about animals and nature,
but we just went fishing and played.
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:48.489
We didn't, there was none of this.
00:38:48.519 --> 00:38:49.389
Oh my gosh.
00:38:49.389 --> 00:38:50.529
You know, I've gotta get
you ready for school.
00:38:50.529 --> 00:38:51.639
You go, please.
00:38:51.639 --> 00:38:53.049
I still remember.
00:38:53.934 --> 00:38:58.704
I was, I went to a, convent then, uh,
the nuns were our teachers, right?
00:39:00.414 --> 00:39:03.804
And they used to give us these
little cards home for homework.
00:39:04.344 --> 00:39:05.814
Didn't have lines on.
00:39:05.934 --> 00:39:11.144
We weren't expected to write our
little letters in dotted thirds
00:39:11.604 --> 00:39:16.704
it was a blank card on how we
then practiced shaping letters.
00:39:17.094 --> 00:39:20.334
I was seven, and am I behind?
00:39:21.864 --> 00:39:28.914
I mean, literally, you know, and I do
remember, , reading came easy to me.
00:39:29.094 --> 00:39:30.804
Writing came easy to me.
00:39:30.804 --> 00:39:31.824
I was ready.
00:39:32.064 --> 00:39:35.574
I mean, and I remember them going to
my mom saying, we need to accelerate.
00:39:35.604 --> 00:39:36.594
And my mom said, no.
00:39:36.964 --> 00:39:41.044
I don't know what would've happened
if they did, or, or what, but I wasn't
00:39:41.044 --> 00:39:44.494
accelerated and life was fine, you know?
00:39:44.494 --> 00:39:44.584
But.
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:47.269
I started at seven.
00:39:47.879 --> 00:39:50.609
It's the same thing with now technology.
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:53.699
We're saying, well, oh, well if we
don't give kids these one-on-one iPads,
00:39:53.699 --> 00:39:57.599
if we don't get them learning about
technology really, really early and
00:39:57.599 --> 00:39:59.159
get them, they're gonna miss the boat.
00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:01.769
Because, you know, our
whole world is technology.
00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:04.739
Have you seen a young child
how quickly they learn?
00:40:05.014 --> 00:40:06.269
They don't even need.
00:40:06.644 --> 00:40:07.664
Instructions.
00:40:07.964 --> 00:40:11.504
They take that iPad and within
a half an hour they have figured
00:40:11.504 --> 00:40:13.214
out exactly how to use it.
00:40:13.604 --> 00:40:15.104
You do not need to tell them.
00:40:15.734 --> 00:40:22.424
So to take that and to delay that I don't
believe is going to do any harm at all.
00:40:22.484 --> 00:40:24.284
In fact, I think it's the opposite.
00:40:24.914 --> 00:40:26.864
I think it'll do the more good.
00:40:27.104 --> 00:40:27.824
Then harm.
00:40:28.184 --> 00:40:31.994
So this whole thing, agree about
we've gotta start them early.
00:40:32.504 --> 00:40:37.334
I don't think it's for anyone's benefit,
except governments who want to, this
00:40:37.334 --> 00:40:40.964
is now gonna cause a hoo-ha, except
governments who want to get parents
00:40:41.024 --> 00:40:43.004
working so that they can pay tax.
00:40:43.034 --> 00:40:47.834
That's what I think because the more
kids we can get into schools, learning
00:40:48.014 --> 00:40:54.164
away from homes means that parents can
go off and do jobs so that they can earn.
00:40:54.554 --> 00:40:55.364
And pay tax.
00:40:55.394 --> 00:41:00.554
That's what I think it's all about and
that's why in the US institutions to have
00:41:00.614 --> 00:41:04.664
these children and so we better, we may as
well then do something with them, right?
00:41:04.694 --> 00:41:08.744
Like teach them how to read and
write instead of allowing them fine.
00:41:08.744 --> 00:41:12.644
I. Just play, create
environments where kids can play.
00:41:12.944 --> 00:41:15.614
So that's just my soapbox
for the day, Sally, sorry.
00:41:16.184 --> 00:41:21.134
Well, I would say in the US, even
when I was a young mother in the
00:41:21.134 --> 00:41:27.734
eighties, that it was the sooner a
child did a milestone, the better.
00:41:28.004 --> 00:41:31.784
So there is this whole
thing, sooner is better.
00:41:32.564 --> 00:41:37.574
There were literally in the eighties,
it'd be like, is your child, uh.
00:41:38.454 --> 00:41:41.174
walking Yet mine were late walkers.
00:41:41.174 --> 00:41:45.074
No, I would feel shame, like
I'd done something wrong then.
00:41:45.074 --> 00:41:46.784
Is your My child's reading.
00:41:47.024 --> 00:41:51.074
My child started reading and at three
years old, is your child reading,
00:41:51.074 --> 00:41:57.224
you know, like just this pressure
on parents and in the US definitely
00:41:57.224 --> 00:42:02.444
there's pressure on parents to have
their children achieving the milestones
00:42:04.034 --> 00:42:07.244
and that the schools that deliver.
00:42:07.904 --> 00:42:08.834
Are packed.
00:42:10.184 --> 00:42:19.034
So in, in my opinion, in the US, what
we need is to turn the tide with parents
00:42:20.774 --> 00:42:28.274
that parents need to understand and
education feels like a consumer product.
00:42:28.724 --> 00:42:28.814
Mm-hmm.
00:42:29.144 --> 00:42:29.234
Right?
00:42:30.194 --> 00:42:32.444
And the consumer is the parent.
00:42:32.449 --> 00:42:32.679
Mm-hmm.
00:42:33.839 --> 00:42:39.869
The, the family unit who wants their
child to succeed and they feel like
00:42:39.869 --> 00:42:41.759
they're gonna be letting them down.
00:42:42.179 --> 00:42:48.149
Like, you know, um, in the nineties,
in my first, you know, 4-year-old
00:42:48.149 --> 00:42:52.829
class, I had a parent ask me, what
reading program are you going to use?
00:42:53.759 --> 00:42:55.349
Where are the worksheets?
00:42:57.329 --> 00:42:58.619
You know, I was like.
00:42:59.774 --> 00:43:03.344
You know, I was in the middle of my
Waldorf training and I was like, what?
00:43:04.004 --> 00:43:05.684
What are you talking about?
00:43:05.834 --> 00:43:12.734
You know, it's like, it's so, you
know, it's like a fungus growing
00:43:12.734 --> 00:43:15.074
on the system, in my opinion here.
00:43:15.074 --> 00:43:21.254
So it's interesting in the cultural
sense, what's keeping this going?
00:43:22.124 --> 00:43:25.184
What's driving what children don't need?
00:43:26.444 --> 00:43:29.384
Not serving us even as a culture.
00:43:33.404 --> 00:43:36.284
It's a really complicated
subject, isn't it?
00:43:36.284 --> 00:43:41.324
It's because as educators who've gone
through university and done all the
00:43:41.324 --> 00:43:47.084
psychology units on how children learn,
we know what's best for children.
00:43:47.084 --> 00:43:47.099
We know.
00:43:47.414 --> 00:43:49.064
We know what's best for children, right?
00:43:49.064 --> 00:43:53.115
But yet we then get into these situations
and in these institutions, in schools.
00:43:54.089 --> 00:44:00.209
And then we forget because actually what's
happening is that parents have more and
00:44:00.209 --> 00:44:06.059
more influence and parents are making,
they drive it off here are making demands.
00:44:06.059 --> 00:44:06.539
Right?
00:44:06.839 --> 00:44:10.349
And so I guess then schools are
just delivering on that demand.
00:44:10.619 --> 00:44:15.959
Instead of saying, hang on a minute,
your child is actually going to meet
00:44:16.019 --> 00:44:22.499
all these milestones and they're
going to excel if we do it this way.
00:44:23.429 --> 00:44:25.589
And, but I also do see Sally.
00:44:26.099 --> 00:44:29.069
There is a slow movement,
there's a change happening.
00:44:29.459 --> 00:44:30.329
Um mm-hmm.
00:44:30.329 --> 00:44:35.249
More so with things like homeschooling
home education, and there's this
00:44:35.249 --> 00:44:41.549
massive movement, um, happening here
in Australia, more so in the States,
00:44:41.549 --> 00:44:43.899
of course, a little bit in the uk.
00:44:44.359 --> 00:44:47.579
But In speaking to some friends
in, in Europe, homeschooling is
00:44:47.579 --> 00:44:49.379
not a big thing in Europe at all.
00:44:49.379 --> 00:44:52.559
In fact, it does not exist in
some of those countries at all.
00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:56.909
But certainly the states here
in Australia, it's a movement
00:44:56.909 --> 00:44:58.409
that is gaining momentum.
00:44:59.129 --> 00:45:00.240
Part of it is.
00:45:00.449 --> 00:45:05.999
And this is the sometimes the part, and
I understand it completely, but then
00:45:05.999 --> 00:45:09.419
on the other side of the scale, I'm
seeing kids that are just, as we said
00:45:09.419 --> 00:45:11.939
before, are just left to free range.
00:45:11.939 --> 00:45:13.679
And I'm thinking, uh, hang on a minute.
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:17.099
Because that in itself is also not.
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:22.049
You know, you have to
have that free range.
00:45:22.049 --> 00:45:26.459
You have to have that free play
that has to be there where children
00:45:26.459 --> 00:45:32.159
can explore and push their own
boundaries and learn innately, right?
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:32.219
Yeah.
00:45:32.939 --> 00:45:35.759
But at the same time, if you're
going to be pulling children out
00:45:35.759 --> 00:45:38.249
of schools, you also need to.
00:45:39.269 --> 00:45:43.019
Turn that play into playful learning.
00:45:43.109 --> 00:45:45.059
And so that takes a skill.
00:45:45.839 --> 00:45:50.909
And so I do, it does, I do wonder a
little bit about that as well, but Yep.
00:45:51.089 --> 00:45:55.349
I think there is a, an
awakening by certain parents
00:45:55.349 --> 00:45:57.115
as well in terms of children,
00:45:57.115 --> 00:45:59.245
and it used to be that free range.
00:45:59.605 --> 00:46:03.080
Was, you know, when I was a little
girl, I had free range at home.
00:46:03.080 --> 00:46:03.200
Yeah.
00:46:03.205 --> 00:46:05.214
I had free range until seven
00:46:05.214 --> 00:46:06.205
and it's been taken.
00:46:06.205 --> 00:46:09.625
Now we don't let our children free
range, so I think unfortunately
00:46:09.625 --> 00:46:10.794
they're not getting it.
00:46:11.125 --> 00:46:15.895
You know, ideally when they were
home, they'd have that freedom to,
00:46:16.645 --> 00:46:24.325
you know, be fully engaged and, and
playing with neighbors and all of that.
00:46:24.325 --> 00:46:26.035
But we are in a different world.
00:46:26.874 --> 00:46:27.774
Unfortunately,
00:46:27.834 --> 00:46:28.134
yes.
00:46:28.134 --> 00:46:30.240
And I've had children, wouldn't
I say to them, oh well.
00:46:30.700 --> 00:46:32.740
No, well, you're just
gotta go home and play.
00:46:32.740 --> 00:46:34.600
And they go, oh, I
don't have time to play.
00:46:34.690 --> 00:46:35.200
I said, what?
00:46:35.259 --> 00:46:36.460
What do you mean you
don't have time to play?
00:46:36.790 --> 00:46:42.009
Oh, well I've got swimming lessons,
I've got ballet, I've got music, da da.
00:46:42.580 --> 00:46:46.390
So a lot of children, as you said, you
know, once they go home from school,
00:46:46.569 --> 00:46:48.460
which ideally would then be a time.
00:46:48.740 --> 00:46:50.029
A downtime, right.
00:46:50.089 --> 00:46:51.499
To play and explore.
00:46:51.680 --> 00:46:53.930
Run around with your
friends, go to the park.
00:46:54.649 --> 00:46:57.890
A lot of these kids don't get
that even because they now have
00:46:58.160 --> 00:46:59.749
extracurricular activities.
00:46:59.749 --> 00:47:00.140
Right.
00:47:00.709 --> 00:47:06.499
So there's a lot to think of and it's
a lot to consider in society today.
00:47:06.890 --> 00:47:14.959
Um, and it does need a whole
rethink and putting children first.
00:47:14.990 --> 00:47:16.459
'cause that's really what it's about.
00:47:16.459 --> 00:47:18.319
It's not about us, it's about them.
00:47:19.495 --> 00:47:25.375
It is, and I think Sir Ken Robinson said
it really beautifully when I read this.
00:47:26.005 --> 00:47:28.155
I, got great comfort from it.
00:47:28.275 --> 00:47:34.145
You know, I would remind myself, he said,
we don't have to transform the whole
00:47:34.235 --> 00:47:36.995
educational system to make a difference.
00:47:37.325 --> 00:47:41.135
He goes, you are transforming this
system when you close your door.
00:47:42.035 --> 00:47:43.445
Oh, and face those children.
00:47:43.835 --> 00:47:46.175
That is transformation of the system.
00:47:46.715 --> 00:47:48.395
Just your piece.
00:47:49.595 --> 00:47:50.525
I love that.
00:47:51.395 --> 00:47:52.475
It's very comforting.
00:47:52.475 --> 00:47:53.975
'cause it can get overwhelming.
00:47:53.975 --> 00:47:55.085
The bigger picture.
00:47:55.415 --> 00:47:55.714
Yes.
00:47:55.745 --> 00:48:03.305
But if just with those children in,
in your care as their educator that
00:48:03.305 --> 00:48:09.305
you bring, you know, I even advocate
if you just brought one hour of play,
00:48:09.305 --> 00:48:17.435
a day of free play a day, you are
doing something massive, massive.
00:48:18.965 --> 00:48:25.175
I am gonna champion you because you are
doing something that, you know, millions
00:48:25.175 --> 00:48:30.605
of children are not getting in the
classroom at 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 years old.
00:48:32.135 --> 00:48:32.315
And
00:48:32.315 --> 00:48:34.055
children that eight, nine need it too.
00:48:34.415 --> 00:48:34.985
Yes.
00:48:34.985 --> 00:48:40.745
And as you said earlier as well, if
you are that teacher who is really.
00:48:41.840 --> 00:48:44.480
Committed to children and their needs.
00:48:44.540 --> 00:48:48.830
And as you said earlier, if you
just go to your administration and
00:48:48.830 --> 00:48:50.390
say, look, this is what I'm doing.
00:48:50.450 --> 00:48:53.060
This is what the research
says, this is what I know.
00:48:53.060 --> 00:48:59.000
Let, and this is what we know is best
practice for children, and I'm going
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:04.100
to be there and I will facilitate and
observe because so many times now I know
00:49:04.250 --> 00:49:05.765
here in Australia, they're very strict.
00:49:07.295 --> 00:49:09.665
In terms of contact hours.
00:49:09.995 --> 00:49:13.115
So you could easily, you
know, that is contact hours.
00:49:13.145 --> 00:49:18.005
I'm going to allow them to play,
but I will observe and do my
00:49:18.005 --> 00:49:25.384
observations and facilitate and have
my provocations and my invitations out
00:49:25.654 --> 00:49:27.995
and see how children learn with that.
00:49:28.355 --> 00:49:32.795
So there are ways around the system, you
know, you just have to be, first of all,
00:49:32.795 --> 00:49:35.685
you really just want, must want want.
00:49:35.685 --> 00:49:36.995
it badly enough.
00:49:37.110 --> 00:49:37.730
That's it.
00:49:37.730 --> 00:49:43.565
And then secondly, you really just, if you
really wanted badly enough and you believe
00:49:43.565 --> 00:49:46.265
in it enough, you'll make it happen.
00:49:46.265 --> 00:49:47.945
You can make those small changes.
00:49:47.945 --> 00:49:49.265
I really believe that.
00:49:50.735 --> 00:49:52.174
You just have to, I never
00:49:52.355 --> 00:49:52.805
push that.
00:49:52.805 --> 00:49:55.320
I never had an administrator turn me down.
00:49:56.000 --> 00:49:58.670
Yeah, not one because I gave the evidence.
00:49:58.759 --> 00:49:59.000
Exactly.
00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:03.170
And I think that's the key point that
you mentioned is that do your research.
00:50:03.470 --> 00:50:09.680
I had a supervisor in a three-year-old
classroom come by and say, you,
00:50:09.680 --> 00:50:11.299
we have to label everything.
00:50:11.299 --> 00:50:14.779
It's a mandate, everyth,
single thing in the classroom.
00:50:14.779 --> 00:50:19.430
We're talking like 300 little
labels up on doorknob door,
00:50:19.515 --> 00:50:21.935
you know, cubby window, window.
00:50:22.670 --> 00:50:27.380
And I pull, I had what I called
the red notebook and I pulled it
00:50:27.380 --> 00:50:32.000
out, opened it up, and I said, and
here is evidence and research done.
00:50:32.270 --> 00:50:37.700
That visual noise can increase behaviors
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:50:38.090 --> 00:50:40.970
And I said, it needs to be
meaning, here's another one.
00:50:40.970 --> 00:50:42.320
It needs to be meaningful.
00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:46.310
So I'll label what's meaningful,
but I'm not gonna label the room.
00:50:46.340 --> 00:50:48.410
And she says, check, you're fine.
00:50:49.955 --> 00:50:50.695
She, knew.
00:50:50.875 --> 00:50:51.205
Okay.
00:50:51.205 --> 00:50:52.015
She understands.
00:50:52.015 --> 00:50:53.785
What's it, what's it's about.
00:50:53.875 --> 00:50:55.045
She's gonna manage it.
00:50:55.465 --> 00:50:56.095
I'm okay.
00:50:56.930 --> 00:50:59.815
I, I love that Sally having a red
folder with all the research in.
00:51:01.209 --> 00:51:06.309
Oh, I always at my fingertips
and here it's, it's like one.
00:51:06.309 --> 00:51:09.490
The other thing that I would say I
think is really important, I meet the
00:51:09.490 --> 00:51:13.329
teacher, not meet the teacher at back
to school night with the parents.
00:51:13.720 --> 00:51:18.639
I always educated them on the
brain research and I would warn
00:51:18.639 --> 00:51:20.709
them, and I never had a complaint.
00:51:20.709 --> 00:51:22.209
In 20 plus years.
00:51:22.629 --> 00:51:26.079
Nobody complained about me, so, you know.
00:51:27.999 --> 00:51:29.649
Where there's a will there's a way.
00:51:30.369 --> 00:51:30.819
Absolutely.
00:51:30.999 --> 00:51:32.049
But I believe that
00:51:32.829 --> 00:51:35.884
where there's a will there's a way
you just want to, you, you have to
00:51:35.914 --> 00:51:38.214
want it, and then you will want it.
00:51:38.214 --> 00:51:38.654
You have to want it.
00:51:38.889 --> 00:51:39.279
Yep.
00:51:40.599 --> 00:51:46.509
Sally, you've mentioned a lot of examples
already in your career that you've
00:51:46.509 --> 00:51:48.934
seen the transformative power of play.
00:51:50.200 --> 00:51:54.890
Do you have any upcoming projects, at
Wunderled that you are particularly
00:51:54.890 --> 00:51:57.440
excited to share with us today?
00:52:00.190 --> 00:52:01.900
You know, it's interesting.
00:52:01.900 --> 00:52:08.920
I'm sitting in Santa Fe, New Mexico
in a Airbnb that looks out and I can
00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:14.320
see hundreds of miles and mountains
and landscape, and I'm planning.
00:52:14.770 --> 00:52:20.350
The next iteration of what I'm up
to in Wunderled And one thing that's
00:52:20.350 --> 00:52:28.360
there is definitely I am concerned with
children's emotional wellbeing in the
00:52:28.360 --> 00:52:35.040
classroom and because of the heightened
dysregulation and I'm just going say
00:52:35.040 --> 00:52:37.470
I have been there, it's overwhelming.
00:52:37.470 --> 00:52:42.090
As an educator, it can feel like you're
going underwater and you can't breathe.
00:52:42.540 --> 00:52:46.620
I had a classroom one time that
literally every night I would go
00:52:46.620 --> 00:52:51.090
home and cry for an hour, and then at
that time I would look for a new job.
00:52:51.810 --> 00:52:54.660
Because I'm like, do I
really have to go back?
00:52:54.660 --> 00:52:55.830
Don't make me go back.
00:52:55.860 --> 00:53:00.090
You know, it's like this is, you know,
I'm, I'm trying to regulate myself
00:53:00.090 --> 00:53:05.670
and I have six children who are, you
know, I, I, I'm not an octopus and
00:53:05.670 --> 00:53:10.410
I didn't have the help, you know,
it was just me and 28 children.
00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:17.550
And so I think we have to start
looking at the reality and
00:53:17.550 --> 00:53:21.090
giving teachers real knowledge.
00:53:21.615 --> 00:53:27.015
Of the limbic system in early childhood
and how do we address that in the
00:53:27.015 --> 00:53:33.525
classroom so that we can actually have
children follow their own interest.
00:53:34.185 --> 00:53:36.345
Otherwise, we're just putting out fires.
00:53:36.645 --> 00:53:41.445
We're, we're surviving the day and
it's not necessary we, you don't
00:53:41.445 --> 00:53:47.205
have to survive the day, but it
takes the knowledge of how do you
00:53:47.625 --> 00:53:50.385
reach children who seem unreachable?
00:53:52.260 --> 00:53:55.020
There's so many of them
now in our classrooms.
00:53:55.440 --> 00:53:57.180
Teachers are really juggling that.
00:53:57.240 --> 00:54:01.380
It's just, it's quite frightening
and yeah, you're right.
00:54:01.380 --> 00:54:04.950
I remember days sitting in my
car in the parking lot doing deep
00:54:04.950 --> 00:54:08.730
breathing and thinking, okay,
what is today going to bring?
00:54:08.730 --> 00:54:11.550
You know, it is very, very real.
00:54:12.535 --> 00:54:13.015
And I think if
00:54:13.015 --> 00:54:17.275
we could make, I, if I could say
anything to the president back to that,
00:54:17.275 --> 00:54:21.505
I would say we need smaller classrooms
so teachers can actually address
00:54:21.505 --> 00:54:25.855
the real needs in the room so that
children can actually grow and learn.
00:54:26.275 --> 00:54:34.135
But I do think we're in crisis and um,
I literally follow the educator's lead.
00:54:35.845 --> 00:54:40.525
With my business, you know, it's not, it's
not about what I wanna do, it's about what
00:54:40.525 --> 00:54:42.925
their need is and how can I fulfill that.
00:54:43.375 --> 00:54:48.565
And so, you know, I'll always have
offerings on play-based education,
00:54:48.565 --> 00:54:54.595
but I want to have the educator
out there who doesn't know if
00:54:54.595 --> 00:54:56.455
they can survive another year.
00:54:56.965 --> 00:55:03.355
I wanna give them the toolkit that
they're like, oh, this is where I belong.
00:55:04.120 --> 00:55:04.750
Amazing.
00:55:04.750 --> 00:55:06.790
This is, and that's exactly
what they need, Sally.
00:55:06.790 --> 00:55:11.770
So on everybody's behalf, I say thank
you for that, and also thank you for
00:55:11.770 --> 00:55:18.190
all the amazing work that you do with
Wunderled on your website and just
00:55:18.190 --> 00:55:21.370
everywhere where I see you, your summits
that you have every year, which is
00:55:21.370 --> 00:55:25.960
where I initially found you, . So I'll
definitely put all your links to your
00:55:26.230 --> 00:55:31.840
website, which has got loads of courses
on there that educators can do so that
00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:34.030
we all know exactly where to find you.
00:55:34.030 --> 00:55:38.500
And I really urge everybody
listening to go and check out, follow
00:55:38.500 --> 00:55:41.920
those links, and go and check out
Sally's website and her offerings
00:55:42.160 --> 00:55:44.200
because they're there to help you.
00:55:44.830 --> 00:55:46.300
And they're amazing.
00:55:46.300 --> 00:55:50.530
'cause ultimately all the help
that we get directly impacts
00:55:50.530 --> 00:55:51.970
the children that we teach.
00:55:52.210 --> 00:55:54.280
And ultimately, that's
what it's all about.
00:55:54.700 --> 00:55:59.920
So Sally, I'd like to thank you so,
so very much for being here, taking
00:55:59.920 --> 00:56:05.100
this time while you're in Santa Fe,
working on your latest, offering.
00:56:05.340 --> 00:56:10.730
And thank you for taking the time
out to come and chat to us and share
00:56:10.730 --> 00:56:14.690
your passion and your wisdom with
Blooming Curious and myself today.
00:56:14.720 --> 00:56:15.950
So thanks very much.
00:56:16.700 --> 00:56:17.270
Well, thank you.
00:56:17.270 --> 00:56:19.190
It Has been a delight.
00:56:19.490 --> 00:56:24.800
So that was the incredible Sally Haughey
from Wundeled, and I really hope that
00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:30.830
today's episode sparked your curiosity and
your awe and your wonder, and that you're
00:56:30.830 --> 00:56:36.110
gonna go out and find something in today's
episode that you can think about and
00:56:36.110 --> 00:56:39.380
implement in your teaching from tomorrow.
00:56:40.530 --> 00:56:45.570
If I could ask one small, tiny little
favor, it would be please click that share
00:56:45.570 --> 00:56:50.850
button and send this episode to a friend,
to a colleague, to a parent, anyone with
00:56:50.850 --> 00:56:52.590
children or who works with children.
00:56:52.890 --> 00:56:56.880
'cause that's the only way we can get
this message out to more people so
00:56:56.880 --> 00:56:58.680
that more children can ultimately.
00:56:58.695 --> 00:56:59.355
Benefit.
00:56:59.445 --> 00:57:02.655
And so thanks very much again for
listening, for taking the time
00:57:02.955 --> 00:57:04.995
to be here right until the end.
00:57:05.245 --> 00:57:08.575
And until next time,
stay blooming curious.
00:57:08.785 --> 00:57:09.385
I'll see you around.