TIM ROGERS (00:00)
Hi everyone, this is Tim from the Sapphire Running Zone and this is another in our podcast series with fundraising managers and directors who run and today we are joined by Paul in glorious Devon. So welcome Paul, tell us where you work, what you do and give us a little bit of an intro into your running journey so far.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (00:20)
Tim, yeah, it's great to join you this morning. My name is Paul Courtney. I have the great joy and privilege to be director of fundraising for Children's Hospice Southwest, who are the most extraordinary charity that for over 30 years now been providing incredible palliative care for children, babies, young people, and their families as they journey through the unimaginable right across the Southwest Peninsula of the UK. And a great
part of my job as many fundraisers and team members listening may ⁓ know is that we get to journey alongside and encourage and cheerlead and support runners who are doing great challenges. And I suppose where my running and my fundraising career collide is that I've always had this principle in life that I should never ask somebody to do something that I'm not prepared to do myself.
And as an event fundraiser and as a community fundraiser, that's meant that as people have been running, run with them. Or I've taken on the challenge when we've had places in different runs and got myself in all sorts of trouble. So over the years, I've done loads and loads of 10Ks and half marathons, haven't quite cracked a marathon yet, although it is definitely on the list. And I've loved that sense of...
pounding the roads or running over Dartmoor because of where I live and being able to understand what it feels like to be fundraising for a cause that I work for and that slant of what does it feel like from the other side is really insightful.
TIM ROGERS (01:49)
I can imagine. So when was your first running event?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (01:53)
Well, the first run I took part in was just over 20 years ago now. Quite early on in one of my first fundraising jobs, I thought it would be great idea to do a half marathon and we needed some promo shots so I ended up standing there in a running vest with the marketing team to encourage other people to run and then somehow stood in the wrong place and got a place in the half marathon at the same time.
I did lots of training, I took it all very seriously and it was all very exciting. But it was also at the time when my wife was expecting our first child and my son arrived two weeks, three weeks before the race, which meant that all of my training and all of my sleep went completely out of the window. And I did a half marathon, not in the way that I was prepared to do it a few weeks earlier. Which again was a great reminder that life gets in
And even if you've got training plans, even if you've got people in your teams for your charities that are doing this stuff, things change right up until race day and we've got to be ready for that.
TIM ROGERS (02:51)
Absolutely, that flexibility is definitely the key. remember when I had my my son and I after a few weeks of absolutely no sleep, I thought, right, it's time to get running again. So I went out the door and came back about 30 seconds later. Completely incapable of putting one foot in front the other. The level of tiredness is it's quite something, isn't it? It really does take a bit of getting used to. That's for sure.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (03:15)
It does
indeed, and I can well remember that two hours and 26 minutes, it was probably one of the slowest half-marathons I've ever run, but it was a gloriously peaceful two hours and 26 minutes. And I had found you around the streets in that half marathon. But a gorgeous baby to greet me on the finish line. So hey, there we're up and down. Yeah.
TIM ROGERS (03:33)
Well, absolutely. It puts it all into perspective, doesn't it? Apart
from incredibly tired, how did you feel at the end of that half? Because obviously a lot of people, they do their first distance event and go, no, that's it, never again. Or yeah, I've got the bug and I really want to do this. Presumably you fell into the latter camp.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (03:54)
I think I did. I think if you'd asked me a sort of a mile or two before the finish line, I was definitely in the earlier camp and I was thinking, what the hell am I doing? You are just so stupid to even think that you could do this. But yeah, that after the finish line moment that gosh, I can do this. Isn't this cool? And interestingly, lots of people talk about that finish line euphoria moment, don't they? But for me,
It was more the wanting to get back out and carry on running in the weeks that followed. That it was a great thing that I'd done. I felt great. I'd raised a couple hundred quid along the way. This felt lovely. But what was unlocked more was the mental health benefits and the way that running had suddenly become a really important part of my week. And it was...
physically exerting, but it was mentally restorative. And I needed both of those things in my routine.
TIM ROGERS (04:46)
Yeah, yeah, both of those are incredibly important, aren't they? And the mental health benefits obviously are underutilized when the medical profession is involved for sure. And I think, you know, if more people were pushed towards the running world, things would be a lot better. But how long was it from that race where you were you then ventured back into the event world? Was it another half marathon that followed?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (05:10)
Yeah, I think it probably was. Yeah. And I think that was a wonderful reflection on some of the coms and some of the stewardship that were coming from the charity, both that I was working for and others around that.
that your sensitivity is heightened, you're looking for those sorts of things, aren't you? You Amazon are great at this stuff, aren't they? you bought this, people that bought that also bought this, you might like that. And we do that in our day to day lives, don't we? ⁓ well, I've done that, so now I'm interested in this. Those are those moments where people are more interested in those opportunities. And I think I suddenly got into this rhythm of going, yeah, let's try that one, or let's try that one.
and that became really fun because you enter into this community, you enter into this cycle in this calendar and I'm certainly someone that has very little willpower so having a racing the calendar to train for is really important particularly at a time of year when it's yuck and it's wet and it's dark and nobody wants to go outside so putting that head torch on and putting on extra layers and getting out of bed in the pitch black you need something that motivates you
TIM ROGERS (06:12)
Yeah, that's critically important. I say this to all the all the runners that we train, particularly for the likes of the London Marathon is make sure you have another target for when that marathon is finished, because it's very likely you know, you will finish that race, you'll have a couple of two, three, four weeks off. And then it might be you have the rest of your life off if you don't if you don't have another target because you need to get back on the horse as soon as possible or all those fitness benefits and the mental health benefits.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (06:32)
Yes.
TIM ROGERS (06:41)
of all that training will disappear and in six months you'll almost be back to square one and that is a that is a real tragedy.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (06:49)
Your thinking about motivations is really important. It's just as you were talking there, I was reflecting, what was my why? Is it because I want to keep going and I don't want to go back to square one? Is it because I really enjoyed doing it? Is it because I want to be fit? In my world, the great honour I have is journeying along with runners whose why is deeply profound and deeply painful.
many people who are running in memory of their son or their daughter or in celebration of a short and precious family life that they had but is now over and I think whatever our experiences, whatever our why is, it's really important that we revisit that, that we keep that in the forefront of our mind.
And whether it's fitness, whether it's that you just want to keep on top of it, whether you want to keep that rhythm or whether there is more of a deeply profound reason that that why is something that is always, I think, should be front and center.
TIM ROGERS (07:50)
Yeah, indeed.
And that why may of course change over time, right? No, but it but it's absolutely crucial to
Paul Courtney (he/him) (07:53)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I always
always reflect and you watch Cancer Research UK and other big charities when they do Race for Life and those sorts of things, know, Tough Mudder and what have you. know, they're running bibs in their numbers always have that space of I'm running for or I'm running because and we, you know, we write names on it, we write reasons for it. I think that's
That's brilliant, isn't it? Because front and centre at every point, when the going gets tough, when you hit that hill on the course, whatever it is, you look down and you're, yeah, that's the heart, that's the why. And we've just got to keep coming back to that.
TIM ROGERS (08:28)
Did you venture far in the early days of your running or did you tend to focus most of your events reasonably locally?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (08:36)
I think it probably was quite local. But then I think in the glorious southwest, quite a bit is local. And you can spread out. But I think what's interesting is that idea. know traveling with work across the country, what I love doing is running when I'm staying at the places and exploring different towns or cities whilst I'm on a morning run.
So I think that's something that I'd love to do in the future and it's something that would be great to sort of tick off other halves and help the marathons in different places. But for now there's plenty still across the southwest that are waiting to have a tick in that box.
TIM ROGERS (09:10)
Yeah, indeed. You've got some great opportunities there for sure. I do. I do love the whole, you know, just having a day or two somewhere completely different and doing a run, whether it be an event or whether it's just a training run, sort of dipping into another world for for an hour or so. And then going back to your sort of normal life is something very interesting about it. Seeing seeing a different community from a running perspective is nothing like it really.
What have you been your most recent events then?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (09:40)
So I have been, what have I done in the last couple of, I've done a couple of small 10Ks, but I took part in the autumn in Barnstable Half Marathon, which actually is an event that we as Children's Hospice stage, took over from North Devon Roadrunners a couple of years ago. Run Barnstable now has a full marathon, a half marathon, a 10K, and a schools challenge, final mile challenge, where children do 12 and a bit miles in schools in the run up to the day and then come and join with this massive
running Vestful with thousands of people and do that final mile to complete a half marathon challenge. And I took part in a half marathon of that race. think there was about 550, 600 runners in the half, another three, 400 in the marathon. Really wonderful, big, registered.
proper, authenticated marathon distance. It happens towards the end of September, so it's one of the last Good for Age qualifiers for the London Marathon in the annual calendar. Flat, fast, gorgeous scenery along the Tarka Trail and along the coast in North Devon, and the whole event delivered by Children's Hospice. So whether you're running with sponsorship or whether you're running for a target and enjoying the run, you're supporting the hospice, which is wonderful.
TIM ROGERS (10:54)
And you've got big plans for that race, presumably.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (10:56)
Yeah, something that we want to grow absolutely and you know it's it is the only you know once you get down into Devon and Cornwall the only proper registered distance marathon run.
and as I say that Good For Age qualifier so it's a wonderful event that we desperately want to grow and as you say we see the economic benefit, we see people coming and having a glorious week or weekend in North Devon, having a bit of a mini holiday and squeezing in a run as part of that stay and it is yes a wonderful event and as I said earlier that great opportunity as someone who's director of fundraising and oversees a whole range of events and challenge programs and
all
different fundraising on that morning, I put on the run invest and I become a punter. And I see it from the other side. I see the stewardship emails that runners receive because I'm registered to be a runner. I...
TIM ROGERS (11:41)
and
Paul Courtney (he/him) (11:49)
I feel what it's like to turn up at registration to do the bag drop. I wander around the event village and feel that anticipation and that welcome and that funnelling and that what does it feel like? What do I experience?
TIM ROGERS (12:04)
What's a bit apart from Banceable, of course, what's been your favourite event?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (12:08)
My favourite event, I think...
I think there's two. I think that first half marathon I ever ran in Plymouth, which was wonderful. Notoriously tough hilly course. Because it was just that first marker in the sand of I Dunning. But I think my favourite, which I'm just about to run again in a month or so's time, is Bath Half, just because it is beautiful.
to run around such a gorgeous city. Huge numbers, real great bars, lining up in Victoria Park, in the shadow of the Crescent, going out around the countryside, going through the city, and then it's this kind of funny, not complete, but almost double loop, so you get to kind of see some bits of it again. The crowds are fantastic, predominantly flat.
just a really great buzz
TIM ROGERS (12:57)
So let's talk a little bit about the fundraising then. Did you fundraise at that very first event in Newham, Plymouth? And how many of the races that you've done, have you fundraised at so far?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (13:10)
I think I fundraised for most of them. Again, it's that funny thing of being a professional fundraiser and my life when my kids were little and somebody used to say to them, you know, what do your parents do? And what does your dad do for a job? And I can remember my son saying, oh, he asked people for money all day. That's his job.
I'd like to suggest that it's slightly more nuanced than that, but I suppose at its basic level, that is what my job is. I prefer to see it more as a value exchange, that I invite people into the opportunity to support something fabulous and some money obviously will change hands. being a fundraiser means that when you then take part in a race where fundraising is important, you kind of got to do it. So, and when you do that a lot,
My friends often say to me, it's expensive knowing you, because you're always doing something. Some of my friends, when I ring them up, they don't say, hello Paul, they say how much. And you kind of know then that you're maybe asking a bit too much. So I do the just giving pages, I do the posts on social media, I do the different bits and pieces. But over the years with different races, what I've tried to do is just do things a little bit differently.
encourage people to maybe come to a quiz night or do something, an event. A great friend of mine is a super runner too and each year she does something a little bit different. she's running a race later in the year and she's staging a secret DJ disco night in town in a couple weeks time where the venue is completely a secret, nobody's going to know about it until the day before. And all the money from that is just what she's going to raise for the race.
Last year she did another race and everybody that put a sponsorship on her just giving page got a poem about them. In return, gorgeous. AI helped, thankfully, because she had lots of people that sponsored her and we all thought to start with that she was this incredible bard and poet but they were coming out at such speed that suddenly it was obvious what was happening.
TIM ROGERS (15:00)
really what AI can now deliver into the fundraising space. We've not talked about that with a lot of people, but that's a very interesting approach.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (15:09)
Yeah,
and I think, you know, I'm a great fan of AI, where it's responsible to use it. And I do believe it can help us and it can improve. And I think, you know, just simple things you know, this is who I am, this is what I'm doing. Give me some fun ways to share that with friends who...
hear about my fundraising all the time. just sometimes we can be so creative, but we end up going round and round in circles and just use it to help you think about things a bit differently.
TIM ROGERS (15:37)
Yeah, it is a challenge for you because obviously you're you're almost going back to the well multiple times aren't you and you have to be a little bit careful. Do you sometimes say, right, I'm doing this half, I need to raise four or 500 pound but I'm not going to talk to this batch of people. I'm going to focus on a different group or do you just take a different approach each time knowing that some will respond and some won't.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (16:02)
over the years, I've had great joy of running lots of different races and in some years I bang them together. So if I'm doing two or three half marathons or four, kind of do one page through the year and just drop things in and say, this is my challenge this year. And I'll post in the run up to each one and people will sponsor or give or whatever it may be.
events around them. In other places where it's been a big event or a one-off I've really gone for it and put the target a bit higher but I suppose because I do it more regularly I tend to keep it a sensible level of a couple hundred quid rather than a couple thousand pounds because I do know that often it is the same people that give, it is the same friends that start things off but I think what's joyous about
our friendship group and our networks knowing that we do this stuff and this is who we are and what we do is that there should never be any shame in sharing and celebrating us taking on challenges for a good reason. There's nothing wrong with that. And if we're filling people's feeds with posts about
great runs and great courses, that's a joyous thing. If I can't give, I can't give. My wife has just caught the bug and is currently doing a, she just started yesterday, a month's running challenge for Surfers Against Sewage. And I've got a page going on for my bath half and she's already smashing it out of the park and loads of people are sponsoring her and they're not sponsoring me, but it's because she's not a runner.
And our friends are going, brilliant, well done, go. And I'm over there going, hang on,
So it's it's what catches people's imaginations and different things do it at different times and I've got friends that Haven't sponsored me for a couple of years and then suddenly popped up on this Latest one and I've sponsored me and it's a lovely surprise and at the end of the day It's probably nothing to do with me what I'm saying how I'm doing it It's all about the algorithms and what's showing on people's feet
TIM ROGERS (18:03)
one
So that's the first time she's gone out to market as it were. You've done it multiple times and the novelty almost of her doing it is generating the response.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (18:05)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And she's incredibly surprised by it, incredibly humbled by it, slightly embarrassed by it, feels slightly uncomfortable about, my gosh, what do you mean posting things and asking people for money? don't know whether I wanted to do this. And she's the wife of a fundraiser, for goodness sake. You she should know better. But again, it's that wonderful insight of how it feels on the other side.
a lot of these Facebook challenges and things, know, auto post and auto create. So as she signed up, a fundraiser was already created, a post was already created, and then on my feed, I was seeing her posting this stuff. And she was like, hang on, I didn't do that, I didn't press those buttons, what's going on? But it was a wonderful, again, insight to...
as supporters experience. And in our head we will go, we'll just design all of that because it'll make it easier for them. Whereas her experience was, hang on, don't do that for me. I want to be in control about what I say and when I say it and who I say it to. And again, it was a very useful insight from the other side.
TIM ROGERS (19:17)
Talk to me about the calls. mean, clearly the calls is so important to fundraisers. is, you know, a few weeks ago, people were clamouring to get the last few London Marathon spots and still are. There are still people out there trying to get a spot and there are some charities with spots available, not many, but some people just want to run the race and they'll run for anybody.
I heard of a friend up in the north of England the other day running for a housing association in the south. And you think, that's got to be a fairly tough ask if you've got no relationship with the cause. How important do you think the cause is for runners?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (19:56)
Personally, I think the cause is King.
I am desperate to run London Marathon. It's my, as I'm sure loads of people that are listening to this that have never run it, it's on their bucket list. Over a million people apply for the ballot and for what? 10 to 12,000 places when you take out Gold Bond charity sponsors and all the rest of it. Yeah. It's beyond bonkers the odds. There's thousands of us that will never ever get a ballot place.
And you know, but that motivation is there really strongly. I want to run that race. But I couldn't do it for a cause that doesn't move me. I've been offered places for other charities in previous years and I just, I couldn't do it because I don't believe...
at mile 23 or mile 20, well probably at mile 6, 7, 13, 15 as well. But particularly towards the end. There has gotta be that something that goes beyond myself that I really desperately, passionately, profoundly believe in that will make me dig in. And I think, you know, that's what I said earlier, that what's your why? Really knowing your why and feeling that why.
is huge. And as I say, I get this wonderful joy of journeying with families. And I've seen how deeply impactful taking part in a run of any distance really, you know, I've known parents do 10 Ks and half marathons that are hugely, you know, a massive challenge for them physically.
But how valuable that is as part of their bereavement journey. I've had parents say to me before, you know, this, we've had bereavement counselling, we've talked about this, but running that run and doing all the training and having all of that time and having that focus has been the thing that has helped me to survive.
I don't think I would be here if you hadn't allowed me to run this race. Which is just so extraordinary because we are there, you know, cheerleading saying thanks so much, you're amazing, you know, how wonderful that you've raised this money. But the response is no, you don't understand.
TIM ROGERS (21:53)
Wow, that's quite a statement, isn't it?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (22:08)
without you I wouldn't be here. We wouldn't have survived this. And I think sometimes that's the bit that we miss when we, you know, whimsically talk about what's your why, is there is a depth to that motivation. And whether you...
you know, face the hideous unimaginable experience of being bereaved of a son or daughter or not, whether you've walked alongside it, whether you can't even begin to put yourself there in the place of imagining it. That motivation, that ability to run that race, to do that journey, to take on that challenge for somebody or with somebody in that way is just such a privilege.
TIM ROGERS (22:48)
So have you got people running the London Marathon this year for you guys then, or in that awful situation?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (22:54)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, we have lots of applications for our London Marathon places, as many charities do, and we invite people to, within the application process, share their why. Why is it you want to run? And sadly, because I want to run London, doesn't get many points.
We're interested in... I talk a lot when I train fundraisers about storytelling, the importance of storytelling. And nice stories in our charities talk about the problem that we exist to solve. Good stories.
invite our donors and our supporters and our, you know, runners or whoever into the story and ask them to be part of the narrative and, you know, show them what difference they make. But really, really awesome charity stories get the charity out of the way and remove the organisation and the institution from the narrative and connect supporters and donors directly with the people whose lives they change.
And that's the magic when you get the joy of running with people that really know the difference that you make. Is you feel it and you see it and you are deeply moved by it. It's not about funding a hospice building. It's not about funding the electricity bill or overheads. It's not about even funding nurses.
It's about me and my family journeying with this family in a place where I could never imagine ever being.
TIM ROGERS (24:21)
That's a very powerful message, isn't it? With all the races you've done, with all the fundraising you've done, what would you say was the most successful in your experiences, the most successful approach that you took with the fundraising?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (24:36)
I think.
There's been lots of just... The problem is when you're in my kind of job you're surrounded by people who are brilliant at doing the fundraising. And ironically as the director of fundraising I don't think I'm very good at fundraising because I'm good at helping other people fundraise. So when it comes to me doing it I think, my gosh, what shall I try? How shall I do it?
And I suppose there's no silver bullet, there's no magic formula, but I think the biggest encouragement I can give and the thing that I've always seen, not smash it out the park but consistently work, is to be consistent and own the fact that this is what you're doing.
Regular sharing of it, regular events, if events are your bag, if you like to do other things to support your fundraising, do it. I've not done a great deal of that, I think I've it twice over the years, but when my life is manic with loads of other stuff, I haven't got time to plan an event as well. So that general, consistent approach, once or twice a week, whatever it may be, on different platforms, in conversation, and just being visible and being fallible,
selfies in the pitch black with your head torch with the batteries run out, whatever it may be. Have fun with this stuff, don't take yourself so seriously, there's too much dull, upsetting, depressing stuff on people's feeds. Be the joy to connect people, engage people with a bit of fun so that you're leading with that rather than the ask.
TIM ROGERS (26:01)
That's a really good point, really good point. And how are you getting on with your fundraising for Bath?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (26:06)
I'm okay, I think. As I said, my wife's nicking all my donations from all our friends, so I'm in competition now. But I think I've raised a hundred or so. as I was saying earlier, the delight of people dropping donations. A great friend in Canada dropped a donation on my page a week or two ago, and it was a glorious surprise. So I think that's the other thing that I would also say in terms of, you know, things that work, things that you might want to share is celebrate when people do give. know, tag people in posts if you
you
know people like being tagged but celebrate when people do give celebrate those little milestones as you can get towards the event so yeah I'm doing all right with my fundraising
TIM ROGERS (26:44)
you're going to get the bulk of it the sort of week before and the week after the race aren't you? So where it's not a London Marathon 2-3 grand target, you can be reasonably relaxed at the moment can't you, knowing that the bulk of it will be later.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (26:53)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think that's the other thing that I would say to him in terms of hints and tips. You know, we do lots of supporting different people where they have smaller targets, where they're relatively big targets, where they think, my gosh, how am gonna raise three grand or whatever it may be. None of our targets are that high, by the way. But what we always say to people, and I'm sure you do the same, you know, is, I can always remember somebody saying to me, how do you eat an elephant? And me looking at them thinking they're from Mars.
TIM ROGERS (27:13)
and
Paul Courtney (he/him) (27:24)
And the answer is one spoonful at a time. You break it down into manageable chunks. you want to raise, make it easy for maths, you want to raise 1200 quid as your target and you're going to run a race and you've entered a race next year, well, that's a hundred pound a month. You break it down and you can overlay, as you say that sense that you'll get these peaks and troughs.
When you first post your crazy idea, a few people will trickle on and you'll get a boost. That'll be lovely. And then the curve will go like that to event day. I think all of us that have done events and done fundraising of these will attest that the most sponsorship you get is the post of the selfie on the start line with the link.
And then again, the sweaty selfie after the finish line, you know, those people that, those lovely friends that really believe in you that much, that wait and see whether you've actually done it before they sponsor you. Aren't they lovely friends? those are the points.
And the more you can do that, the more that you can share that stuff, the better. break that stuff down. There's so much, I cannot tell you the amount of joy that you feel on the starting line, knowing that your target's already been smashed. It's one less thing to worry about. And my gosh, does it give you a spring in your step? you know, try and put those milestones in where you know.
Yeah, that's ticked off. Yeah, that's done. Yeah, almost when you design, because we do this, we, with our training plans and we use apps and we do whatever, wonderful people like you provide us with these sort of training plans and advice and health and fitness stuff and all this stuff.
TIM ROGERS (28:52)
Yeah.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (29:07)
Have the same for your fundraising. At this week, I want to be doing a nine mile and two intensity runs and a bit of interval training. Well, at this point, I also want to be at 50 % of my target, have an event planned and know what is coming here and there. That doesn't feel, if we do it for our legs and our muscles, let's do it for our fundraising as well.
TIM ROGERS (29:28)
Yeah, absolutely right. Now, Paul, that's been absolutely fascinating. Yeah, I really appreciate you coming on and some great insights there and the focus on what's your why I think is absolutely crucial for everyone. So I really appreciate your time.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (29:43)
Thank you.
Hi everyone, this is Tim from the Sapphire Running Zone and this is another in our podcast series with fundraising managers and directors who run and today we are joined by Paul in glorious Devon. So welcome Paul, tell us where you work, what you do and give us a little bit of an intro into your running journey so far.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (00:20)
Tim, yeah, it's great to join you this morning. My name is Paul Courtney. I have the great joy and privilege to be director of fundraising for Children's Hospice Southwest, who are the most extraordinary charity that for over 30 years now been providing incredible palliative care for children, babies, young people, and their families as they journey through the unimaginable right across the Southwest Peninsula of the UK. And a great
part of my job as many fundraisers and team members listening may ⁓ know is that we get to journey alongside and encourage and cheerlead and support runners who are doing great challenges. And I suppose where my running and my fundraising career collide is that I've always had this principle in life that I should never ask somebody to do something that I'm not prepared to do myself.
And as an event fundraiser and as a community fundraiser, that's meant that as people have been running, run with them. Or I've taken on the challenge when we've had places in different runs and got myself in all sorts of trouble. So over the years, I've done loads and loads of 10Ks and half marathons, haven't quite cracked a marathon yet, although it is definitely on the list. And I've loved that sense of...
pounding the roads or running over Dartmoor because of where I live and being able to understand what it feels like to be fundraising for a cause that I work for and that slant of what does it feel like from the other side is really insightful.
TIM ROGERS (01:49)
I can imagine. So when was your first running event?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (01:53)
Well, the first run I took part in was just over 20 years ago now. Quite early on in one of my first fundraising jobs, I thought it would be great idea to do a half marathon and we needed some promo shots so I ended up standing there in a running vest with the marketing team to encourage other people to run and then somehow stood in the wrong place and got a place in the half marathon at the same time.
I did lots of training, I took it all very seriously and it was all very exciting. But it was also at the time when my wife was expecting our first child and my son arrived two weeks, three weeks before the race, which meant that all of my training and all of my sleep went completely out of the window. And I did a half marathon, not in the way that I was prepared to do it a few weeks earlier. Which again was a great reminder that life gets in
And even if you've got training plans, even if you've got people in your teams for your charities that are doing this stuff, things change right up until race day and we've got to be ready for that.
TIM ROGERS (02:51)
Absolutely, that flexibility is definitely the key. remember when I had my my son and I after a few weeks of absolutely no sleep, I thought, right, it's time to get running again. So I went out the door and came back about 30 seconds later. Completely incapable of putting one foot in front the other. The level of tiredness is it's quite something, isn't it? It really does take a bit of getting used to. That's for sure.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (03:15)
It does
indeed, and I can well remember that two hours and 26 minutes, it was probably one of the slowest half-marathons I've ever run, but it was a gloriously peaceful two hours and 26 minutes. And I had found you around the streets in that half marathon. But a gorgeous baby to greet me on the finish line. So hey, there we're up and down. Yeah.
TIM ROGERS (03:33)
Well, absolutely. It puts it all into perspective, doesn't it? Apart
from incredibly tired, how did you feel at the end of that half? Because obviously a lot of people, they do their first distance event and go, no, that's it, never again. Or yeah, I've got the bug and I really want to do this. Presumably you fell into the latter camp.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (03:54)
I think I did. I think if you'd asked me a sort of a mile or two before the finish line, I was definitely in the earlier camp and I was thinking, what the hell am I doing? You are just so stupid to even think that you could do this. But yeah, that after the finish line moment that gosh, I can do this. Isn't this cool? And interestingly, lots of people talk about that finish line euphoria moment, don't they? But for me,
It was more the wanting to get back out and carry on running in the weeks that followed. That it was a great thing that I'd done. I felt great. I'd raised a couple hundred quid along the way. This felt lovely. But what was unlocked more was the mental health benefits and the way that running had suddenly become a really important part of my week. And it was...
physically exerting, but it was mentally restorative. And I needed both of those things in my routine.
TIM ROGERS (04:46)
Yeah, yeah, both of those are incredibly important, aren't they? And the mental health benefits obviously are underutilized when the medical profession is involved for sure. And I think, you know, if more people were pushed towards the running world, things would be a lot better. But how long was it from that race where you were you then ventured back into the event world? Was it another half marathon that followed?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (05:10)
Yeah, I think it probably was. Yeah. And I think that was a wonderful reflection on some of the coms and some of the stewardship that were coming from the charity, both that I was working for and others around that.
that your sensitivity is heightened, you're looking for those sorts of things, aren't you? You Amazon are great at this stuff, aren't they? you bought this, people that bought that also bought this, you might like that. And we do that in our day to day lives, don't we? ⁓ well, I've done that, so now I'm interested in this. Those are those moments where people are more interested in those opportunities. And I think I suddenly got into this rhythm of going, yeah, let's try that one, or let's try that one.
and that became really fun because you enter into this community, you enter into this cycle in this calendar and I'm certainly someone that has very little willpower so having a racing the calendar to train for is really important particularly at a time of year when it's yuck and it's wet and it's dark and nobody wants to go outside so putting that head torch on and putting on extra layers and getting out of bed in the pitch black you need something that motivates you
TIM ROGERS (06:12)
Yeah, that's critically important. I say this to all the all the runners that we train, particularly for the likes of the London Marathon is make sure you have another target for when that marathon is finished, because it's very likely you know, you will finish that race, you'll have a couple of two, three, four weeks off. And then it might be you have the rest of your life off if you don't if you don't have another target because you need to get back on the horse as soon as possible or all those fitness benefits and the mental health benefits.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (06:32)
Yes.
TIM ROGERS (06:41)
of all that training will disappear and in six months you'll almost be back to square one and that is a that is a real tragedy.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (06:49)
Your thinking about motivations is really important. It's just as you were talking there, I was reflecting, what was my why? Is it because I want to keep going and I don't want to go back to square one? Is it because I really enjoyed doing it? Is it because I want to be fit? In my world, the great honour I have is journeying along with runners whose why is deeply profound and deeply painful.
many people who are running in memory of their son or their daughter or in celebration of a short and precious family life that they had but is now over and I think whatever our experiences, whatever our why is, it's really important that we revisit that, that we keep that in the forefront of our mind.
And whether it's fitness, whether it's that you just want to keep on top of it, whether you want to keep that rhythm or whether there is more of a deeply profound reason that that why is something that is always, I think, should be front and center.
TIM ROGERS (07:50)
Yeah, indeed.
And that why may of course change over time, right? No, but it but it's absolutely crucial to
Paul Courtney (he/him) (07:53)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I always
always reflect and you watch Cancer Research UK and other big charities when they do Race for Life and those sorts of things, know, Tough Mudder and what have you. know, they're running bibs in their numbers always have that space of I'm running for or I'm running because and we, you know, we write names on it, we write reasons for it. I think that's
That's brilliant, isn't it? Because front and centre at every point, when the going gets tough, when you hit that hill on the course, whatever it is, you look down and you're, yeah, that's the heart, that's the why. And we've just got to keep coming back to that.
TIM ROGERS (08:28)
Did you venture far in the early days of your running or did you tend to focus most of your events reasonably locally?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (08:36)
I think it probably was quite local. But then I think in the glorious southwest, quite a bit is local. And you can spread out. But I think what's interesting is that idea. know traveling with work across the country, what I love doing is running when I'm staying at the places and exploring different towns or cities whilst I'm on a morning run.
So I think that's something that I'd love to do in the future and it's something that would be great to sort of tick off other halves and help the marathons in different places. But for now there's plenty still across the southwest that are waiting to have a tick in that box.
TIM ROGERS (09:10)
Yeah, indeed. You've got some great opportunities there for sure. I do. I do love the whole, you know, just having a day or two somewhere completely different and doing a run, whether it be an event or whether it's just a training run, sort of dipping into another world for for an hour or so. And then going back to your sort of normal life is something very interesting about it. Seeing seeing a different community from a running perspective is nothing like it really.
What have you been your most recent events then?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (09:40)
So I have been, what have I done in the last couple of, I've done a couple of small 10Ks, but I took part in the autumn in Barnstable Half Marathon, which actually is an event that we as Children's Hospice stage, took over from North Devon Roadrunners a couple of years ago. Run Barnstable now has a full marathon, a half marathon, a 10K, and a schools challenge, final mile challenge, where children do 12 and a bit miles in schools in the run up to the day and then come and join with this massive
running Vestful with thousands of people and do that final mile to complete a half marathon challenge. And I took part in a half marathon of that race. think there was about 550, 600 runners in the half, another three, 400 in the marathon. Really wonderful, big, registered.
proper, authenticated marathon distance. It happens towards the end of September, so it's one of the last Good for Age qualifiers for the London Marathon in the annual calendar. Flat, fast, gorgeous scenery along the Tarka Trail and along the coast in North Devon, and the whole event delivered by Children's Hospice. So whether you're running with sponsorship or whether you're running for a target and enjoying the run, you're supporting the hospice, which is wonderful.
TIM ROGERS (10:54)
And you've got big plans for that race, presumably.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (10:56)
Yeah, something that we want to grow absolutely and you know it's it is the only you know once you get down into Devon and Cornwall the only proper registered distance marathon run.
and as I say that Good For Age qualifier so it's a wonderful event that we desperately want to grow and as you say we see the economic benefit, we see people coming and having a glorious week or weekend in North Devon, having a bit of a mini holiday and squeezing in a run as part of that stay and it is yes a wonderful event and as I said earlier that great opportunity as someone who's director of fundraising and oversees a whole range of events and challenge programs and
all
different fundraising on that morning, I put on the run invest and I become a punter. And I see it from the other side. I see the stewardship emails that runners receive because I'm registered to be a runner. I...
TIM ROGERS (11:41)
and
Paul Courtney (he/him) (11:49)
I feel what it's like to turn up at registration to do the bag drop. I wander around the event village and feel that anticipation and that welcome and that funnelling and that what does it feel like? What do I experience?
TIM ROGERS (12:04)
What's a bit apart from Banceable, of course, what's been your favourite event?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (12:08)
My favourite event, I think...
I think there's two. I think that first half marathon I ever ran in Plymouth, which was wonderful. Notoriously tough hilly course. Because it was just that first marker in the sand of I Dunning. But I think my favourite, which I'm just about to run again in a month or so's time, is Bath Half, just because it is beautiful.
to run around such a gorgeous city. Huge numbers, real great bars, lining up in Victoria Park, in the shadow of the Crescent, going out around the countryside, going through the city, and then it's this kind of funny, not complete, but almost double loop, so you get to kind of see some bits of it again. The crowds are fantastic, predominantly flat.
just a really great buzz
TIM ROGERS (12:57)
So let's talk a little bit about the fundraising then. Did you fundraise at that very first event in Newham, Plymouth? And how many of the races that you've done, have you fundraised at so far?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (13:10)
I think I fundraised for most of them. Again, it's that funny thing of being a professional fundraiser and my life when my kids were little and somebody used to say to them, you know, what do your parents do? And what does your dad do for a job? And I can remember my son saying, oh, he asked people for money all day. That's his job.
I'd like to suggest that it's slightly more nuanced than that, but I suppose at its basic level, that is what my job is. I prefer to see it more as a value exchange, that I invite people into the opportunity to support something fabulous and some money obviously will change hands. being a fundraiser means that when you then take part in a race where fundraising is important, you kind of got to do it. So, and when you do that a lot,
My friends often say to me, it's expensive knowing you, because you're always doing something. Some of my friends, when I ring them up, they don't say, hello Paul, they say how much. And you kind of know then that you're maybe asking a bit too much. So I do the just giving pages, I do the posts on social media, I do the different bits and pieces. But over the years with different races, what I've tried to do is just do things a little bit differently.
encourage people to maybe come to a quiz night or do something, an event. A great friend of mine is a super runner too and each year she does something a little bit different. she's running a race later in the year and she's staging a secret DJ disco night in town in a couple weeks time where the venue is completely a secret, nobody's going to know about it until the day before. And all the money from that is just what she's going to raise for the race.
Last year she did another race and everybody that put a sponsorship on her just giving page got a poem about them. In return, gorgeous. AI helped, thankfully, because she had lots of people that sponsored her and we all thought to start with that she was this incredible bard and poet but they were coming out at such speed that suddenly it was obvious what was happening.
TIM ROGERS (15:00)
really what AI can now deliver into the fundraising space. We've not talked about that with a lot of people, but that's a very interesting approach.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (15:09)
Yeah,
and I think, you know, I'm a great fan of AI, where it's responsible to use it. And I do believe it can help us and it can improve. And I think, you know, just simple things you know, this is who I am, this is what I'm doing. Give me some fun ways to share that with friends who...
hear about my fundraising all the time. just sometimes we can be so creative, but we end up going round and round in circles and just use it to help you think about things a bit differently.
TIM ROGERS (15:37)
Yeah, it is a challenge for you because obviously you're you're almost going back to the well multiple times aren't you and you have to be a little bit careful. Do you sometimes say, right, I'm doing this half, I need to raise four or 500 pound but I'm not going to talk to this batch of people. I'm going to focus on a different group or do you just take a different approach each time knowing that some will respond and some won't.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (16:02)
over the years, I've had great joy of running lots of different races and in some years I bang them together. So if I'm doing two or three half marathons or four, kind of do one page through the year and just drop things in and say, this is my challenge this year. And I'll post in the run up to each one and people will sponsor or give or whatever it may be.
events around them. In other places where it's been a big event or a one-off I've really gone for it and put the target a bit higher but I suppose because I do it more regularly I tend to keep it a sensible level of a couple hundred quid rather than a couple thousand pounds because I do know that often it is the same people that give, it is the same friends that start things off but I think what's joyous about
our friendship group and our networks knowing that we do this stuff and this is who we are and what we do is that there should never be any shame in sharing and celebrating us taking on challenges for a good reason. There's nothing wrong with that. And if we're filling people's feeds with posts about
great runs and great courses, that's a joyous thing. If I can't give, I can't give. My wife has just caught the bug and is currently doing a, she just started yesterday, a month's running challenge for Surfers Against Sewage. And I've got a page going on for my bath half and she's already smashing it out of the park and loads of people are sponsoring her and they're not sponsoring me, but it's because she's not a runner.
And our friends are going, brilliant, well done, go. And I'm over there going, hang on,
So it's it's what catches people's imaginations and different things do it at different times and I've got friends that Haven't sponsored me for a couple of years and then suddenly popped up on this Latest one and I've sponsored me and it's a lovely surprise and at the end of the day It's probably nothing to do with me what I'm saying how I'm doing it It's all about the algorithms and what's showing on people's feet
TIM ROGERS (18:03)
one
So that's the first time she's gone out to market as it were. You've done it multiple times and the novelty almost of her doing it is generating the response.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (18:05)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And she's incredibly surprised by it, incredibly humbled by it, slightly embarrassed by it, feels slightly uncomfortable about, my gosh, what do you mean posting things and asking people for money? don't know whether I wanted to do this. And she's the wife of a fundraiser, for goodness sake. You she should know better. But again, it's that wonderful insight of how it feels on the other side.
a lot of these Facebook challenges and things, know, auto post and auto create. So as she signed up, a fundraiser was already created, a post was already created, and then on my feed, I was seeing her posting this stuff. And she was like, hang on, I didn't do that, I didn't press those buttons, what's going on? But it was a wonderful, again, insight to...
as supporters experience. And in our head we will go, we'll just design all of that because it'll make it easier for them. Whereas her experience was, hang on, don't do that for me. I want to be in control about what I say and when I say it and who I say it to. And again, it was a very useful insight from the other side.
TIM ROGERS (19:17)
Talk to me about the calls. mean, clearly the calls is so important to fundraisers. is, you know, a few weeks ago, people were clamouring to get the last few London Marathon spots and still are. There are still people out there trying to get a spot and there are some charities with spots available, not many, but some people just want to run the race and they'll run for anybody.
I heard of a friend up in the north of England the other day running for a housing association in the south. And you think, that's got to be a fairly tough ask if you've got no relationship with the cause. How important do you think the cause is for runners?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (19:56)
Personally, I think the cause is King.
I am desperate to run London Marathon. It's my, as I'm sure loads of people that are listening to this that have never run it, it's on their bucket list. Over a million people apply for the ballot and for what? 10 to 12,000 places when you take out Gold Bond charity sponsors and all the rest of it. Yeah. It's beyond bonkers the odds. There's thousands of us that will never ever get a ballot place.
And you know, but that motivation is there really strongly. I want to run that race. But I couldn't do it for a cause that doesn't move me. I've been offered places for other charities in previous years and I just, I couldn't do it because I don't believe...
at mile 23 or mile 20, well probably at mile 6, 7, 13, 15 as well. But particularly towards the end. There has gotta be that something that goes beyond myself that I really desperately, passionately, profoundly believe in that will make me dig in. And I think, you know, that's what I said earlier, that what's your why? Really knowing your why and feeling that why.
is huge. And as I say, I get this wonderful joy of journeying with families. And I've seen how deeply impactful taking part in a run of any distance really, you know, I've known parents do 10 Ks and half marathons that are hugely, you know, a massive challenge for them physically.
But how valuable that is as part of their bereavement journey. I've had parents say to me before, you know, this, we've had bereavement counselling, we've talked about this, but running that run and doing all the training and having all of that time and having that focus has been the thing that has helped me to survive.
I don't think I would be here if you hadn't allowed me to run this race. Which is just so extraordinary because we are there, you know, cheerleading saying thanks so much, you're amazing, you know, how wonderful that you've raised this money. But the response is no, you don't understand.
TIM ROGERS (21:53)
Wow, that's quite a statement, isn't it?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (22:08)
without you I wouldn't be here. We wouldn't have survived this. And I think sometimes that's the bit that we miss when we, you know, whimsically talk about what's your why, is there is a depth to that motivation. And whether you...
you know, face the hideous unimaginable experience of being bereaved of a son or daughter or not, whether you've walked alongside it, whether you can't even begin to put yourself there in the place of imagining it. That motivation, that ability to run that race, to do that journey, to take on that challenge for somebody or with somebody in that way is just such a privilege.
TIM ROGERS (22:48)
So have you got people running the London Marathon this year for you guys then, or in that awful situation?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (22:54)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, we have lots of applications for our London Marathon places, as many charities do, and we invite people to, within the application process, share their why. Why is it you want to run? And sadly, because I want to run London, doesn't get many points.
We're interested in... I talk a lot when I train fundraisers about storytelling, the importance of storytelling. And nice stories in our charities talk about the problem that we exist to solve. Good stories.
invite our donors and our supporters and our, you know, runners or whoever into the story and ask them to be part of the narrative and, you know, show them what difference they make. But really, really awesome charity stories get the charity out of the way and remove the organisation and the institution from the narrative and connect supporters and donors directly with the people whose lives they change.
And that's the magic when you get the joy of running with people that really know the difference that you make. Is you feel it and you see it and you are deeply moved by it. It's not about funding a hospice building. It's not about funding the electricity bill or overheads. It's not about even funding nurses.
It's about me and my family journeying with this family in a place where I could never imagine ever being.
TIM ROGERS (24:21)
That's a very powerful message, isn't it? With all the races you've done, with all the fundraising you've done, what would you say was the most successful in your experiences, the most successful approach that you took with the fundraising?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (24:36)
I think.
There's been lots of just... The problem is when you're in my kind of job you're surrounded by people who are brilliant at doing the fundraising. And ironically as the director of fundraising I don't think I'm very good at fundraising because I'm good at helping other people fundraise. So when it comes to me doing it I think, my gosh, what shall I try? How shall I do it?
And I suppose there's no silver bullet, there's no magic formula, but I think the biggest encouragement I can give and the thing that I've always seen, not smash it out the park but consistently work, is to be consistent and own the fact that this is what you're doing.
Regular sharing of it, regular events, if events are your bag, if you like to do other things to support your fundraising, do it. I've not done a great deal of that, I think I've it twice over the years, but when my life is manic with loads of other stuff, I haven't got time to plan an event as well. So that general, consistent approach, once or twice a week, whatever it may be, on different platforms, in conversation, and just being visible and being fallible,
selfies in the pitch black with your head torch with the batteries run out, whatever it may be. Have fun with this stuff, don't take yourself so seriously, there's too much dull, upsetting, depressing stuff on people's feeds. Be the joy to connect people, engage people with a bit of fun so that you're leading with that rather than the ask.
TIM ROGERS (26:01)
That's a really good point, really good point. And how are you getting on with your fundraising for Bath?
Paul Courtney (he/him) (26:06)
I'm okay, I think. As I said, my wife's nicking all my donations from all our friends, so I'm in competition now. But I think I've raised a hundred or so. as I was saying earlier, the delight of people dropping donations. A great friend in Canada dropped a donation on my page a week or two ago, and it was a glorious surprise. So I think that's the other thing that I would also say in terms of, you know, things that work, things that you might want to share is celebrate when people do give. know, tag people in posts if you
you
know people like being tagged but celebrate when people do give celebrate those little milestones as you can get towards the event so yeah I'm doing all right with my fundraising
TIM ROGERS (26:44)
you're going to get the bulk of it the sort of week before and the week after the race aren't you? So where it's not a London Marathon 2-3 grand target, you can be reasonably relaxed at the moment can't you, knowing that the bulk of it will be later.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (26:53)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think that's the other thing that I would say to him in terms of hints and tips. You know, we do lots of supporting different people where they have smaller targets, where they're relatively big targets, where they think, my gosh, how am gonna raise three grand or whatever it may be. None of our targets are that high, by the way. But what we always say to people, and I'm sure you do the same, you know, is, I can always remember somebody saying to me, how do you eat an elephant? And me looking at them thinking they're from Mars.
TIM ROGERS (27:13)
and
Paul Courtney (he/him) (27:24)
And the answer is one spoonful at a time. You break it down into manageable chunks. you want to raise, make it easy for maths, you want to raise 1200 quid as your target and you're going to run a race and you've entered a race next year, well, that's a hundred pound a month. You break it down and you can overlay, as you say that sense that you'll get these peaks and troughs.
When you first post your crazy idea, a few people will trickle on and you'll get a boost. That'll be lovely. And then the curve will go like that to event day. I think all of us that have done events and done fundraising of these will attest that the most sponsorship you get is the post of the selfie on the start line with the link.
And then again, the sweaty selfie after the finish line, you know, those people that, those lovely friends that really believe in you that much, that wait and see whether you've actually done it before they sponsor you. Aren't they lovely friends? those are the points.
And the more you can do that, the more that you can share that stuff, the better. break that stuff down. There's so much, I cannot tell you the amount of joy that you feel on the starting line, knowing that your target's already been smashed. It's one less thing to worry about. And my gosh, does it give you a spring in your step? you know, try and put those milestones in where you know.
Yeah, that's ticked off. Yeah, that's done. Yeah, almost when you design, because we do this, we, with our training plans and we use apps and we do whatever, wonderful people like you provide us with these sort of training plans and advice and health and fitness stuff and all this stuff.
TIM ROGERS (28:52)
Yeah.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (29:07)
Have the same for your fundraising. At this week, I want to be doing a nine mile and two intensity runs and a bit of interval training. Well, at this point, I also want to be at 50 % of my target, have an event planned and know what is coming here and there. That doesn't feel, if we do it for our legs and our muscles, let's do it for our fundraising as well.
TIM ROGERS (29:28)
Yeah, absolutely right. Now, Paul, that's been absolutely fascinating. Yeah, I really appreciate you coming on and some great insights there and the focus on what's your why I think is absolutely crucial for everyone. So I really appreciate your time.
Paul Courtney (he/him) (29:43)
Thank you.
