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Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Between Sessions with Berries.
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Today's guest, I'm super excited to have him here today, is Michael Fulweiler.
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He's a marketing strategist, copywriter, and creative director with over a decade of experience in mental health marketing.
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He's the creator of Therapy Marketer, a go-to newsletter for therapists, and the founder of Folweiler Media, where he helps mental health brands grow through content marketing that actually works.
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He's also held leadership roles at Heard and the Gottman Institute.
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And today he's here to talk about the intersection of therapy, AI, and content and how to make smarter marketing decisions without losing your voice.
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You hold space for others every day.
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This space is for you.
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Welcome to Between Sessions with Barry, the podcast where mental health professionals have real conversations to simplify documentation, fight burnout, and reconnect with the work they love.
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Michael, welcome.
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I'm so excited to have you here.
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Thank you, Kim.
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Excited to be here.
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It's a great intro.
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I was listening back to a few of the uh most recent episodes of the podcast, and I have to say that you do great intros.
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So we're off to a good start.
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Well, thank you.
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Yeah.
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AI helps me, I should say.
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Sure, we can talk about that.
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Yeah, yeah, definitely.
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So your background includes really big names.
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When I was reading you bio, I was like, this is so cool.
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So you were a marketer or like in a role at the Gottman Institute and with Heard.
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So how did you get started in mental health marketing and you know, into those places?
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I guess you like, did you learn from the Gottman Institute or did you go in with a really strong marketing background?
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I'd love to just like hear your history a little bit because I find that stuff so interesting.
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No, to be completely honest, I got into mental health marketing by accident.
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I was an English literature major at the University of Washington.
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I thought that I was going to go to law school and be a lawyer in my senior year.
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I got an internship at the Gottman Institute.
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It was a marketing internship and just really fell in love both with marketing but also with the mental health space.
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And that was in 2011.
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And so once I graduated in 2012, they offered me a full-time role.
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And I I stayed at the Gottman Institute for almost 10 years.
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I was there for eight and a half years.
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By the end, I was the chief marketing officer.
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I had built out the entire marketing team there and just such a wonderful opportunity for me.
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I think he did a really good job being there because I mean he doesn't know who the Gottman Institute is at this point.
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You know, I mean, they're like world renowned.
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So that's amazing.
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Content marketing, let's talk about what that means a little bit because I mean I kind of know what it is, but maybe the average therapist listening, they probably like, I don't even know what content marketing is.
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So maybe we could get into that a little bit and what that entails.
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When people hear content marketing, they might think about posting on social media or they might think about writing blog posts for your website, which these are forms of content marketing, but really like when it's distilled down, content marketing is a value exchange.
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And what I mean by that is as a therapist, before you can ask for cash value for your services, it's important to provide use value through the form of content.
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And so by writing articles and blog posts for your website, by posting on social media, you're building trust, you're building authority, you're building thought leadership, all of these things that, you know, are going to make clients more likely to book that first session with you.
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And so the way that I like to think about it is, you know, providing use value, and that's very key.
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And we can talk about what that actually means.
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But you know, that your content is valuable for people, it's helpful, it's educational, it can even be entertainment value, right?
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It doesn't have to be so serious all the time.
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There's therapists who have great, you know, social media accounts that are just really funny, providing entertainment value value, excuse me.
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But really, you're providing value, and that's a way to grow an audience, build your reputation, and make it more likely for potential clients not just to reach out, but also to to book that session with you.
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Amazing.
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Let's talk about that.
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What is like use useful content versus maybe just like just random stuff you throw out on the internet?
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Like there's a strategy behind this, right?
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Like how to be like thoughtful in your content, how to like incorporate it into your brand, and then how to make it like helpful for people so they actually find that you care about helping them, I guess.
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Like how can we talk about that?
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Like the strategy behind it and how how you go about that?
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When I work with you know a company or with a therapist to build out a strategy for content marketing, it really starts with your audience.
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And really any marketing strategy, right, starts with the who.
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So who are you trying to reach with your content?
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And that's super important.
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As a therapist, that's your ideal client or the population that you want to work with.
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And so once you've identified the who, then you can identify the types of problems that they have, the things that they're struggling with, the questions that they have.
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And then you can create content to answer those questions that they have.
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And that's really gonna provide them with value, right?
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These are things that they're struggling with.
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And so if, you know, say they're an athlete who's struggling with like performance anxiety, if if I come across a performance psychologist who's talking about these things on Instagram, that's gonna pique my interest, right?
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It's it's speaking to me.
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Oh, this is this is really helpful.
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Let me check this person out, let me go look at their website, right?
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So it really starts with the who.
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And I think where a lot of therapists kind of start start to go wrong or the mistake that they make with content marketing is they don't have clarity on who they're creating content for.
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That's where I I like to start.
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Any tips for that?
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I mean, I feel like it's niching down, right?
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Or like figuring out like who am I actually speaking to?
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Do you have tips for that?
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Because I hear that a lot too, like in the coaching realm, you know, people come to me and say, I don't know, I just want to like teach people about anxiety or whatever.
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And it's like, well, that's probably not gonna work because everybody's talk talking about anxiety.
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You need it to be like specifically about this person with anxiety, right?
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So when we talk about, you know, defining your audience for content or even your ideal client, your niche for your therapy practice, it really has two components.
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One is a demographic, right?
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So, you know, a type of person, say it's working moms.
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So that's kind of the demographic or the population.
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And then there also is a second part, and this part I think gets overlooked, and that's the presenting concern to use clinical language, right?
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It's like what is the problem that they're struggling with?
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It's working moms struggling with burnout or something like that, right?
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So it's like that's a great niche, and so it's it's a demographic and then a problem.
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And so when you're starting to think about or even refining who you think your, you know, your target audience is for your content or your ideal client for your therapy practice, it really needs to check both of those boxes.
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So once you've figured that part out, how does that translate then into like, I mean, I could see how the blog posts, but like for somebody listening that maybe has never even thought about having an Instagram account or something like that, how do you take that niche and then translate it into something special out there that's actually going to attract a client to you?
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Yeah.
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So I think for a lot of fields, creating, coming up with content ideas for social media, for example, for you know, email, for, for blog, for blogging can be a challenge.
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Like you really need to do audience research, keyword research.
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But for a therapist, like you're talking in theory, right?
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You're talking to your ideal clients every day.
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And so you you should have a like a general idea of the types of things that they're struggling with, the questions that they have.
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You know, these are questions that you're getting on your, if you're offering consultation calls or your intake calls in session, right?
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Obviously, you're not disclosing confidential, you know, conversations you're having with clients, but if you're starting to see themes come up in your practice, those are great ideas and can be inspiration for topics to create content around.
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And when we when we start to get to, okay, I've identified who I'm creating content for, who my audience is.
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Now I'm sort of moving into what am I creating content about?
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I would recommend sticking to what I would call content pillars.
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So say two or three things.
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These are the things that I'm going to talk about related to my niche and you know, experience and expertise as it relates to the specific population or audience that I'm trying to reach.
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So, like the burnout mom, for example, a niche that you might have.
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What what would be an example of like content pillars for that that somebody listening could learn how to develop their own content pillars?
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Because I guess is it different for every person, like what the content pillars would be, or is it kind of the same pillars for everybody?
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Did that make sense?
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Yeah.
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So for in that example, right, like you could have a whole content series or a whole content pillar on like signs of burnout, like how to recognize that you're approaching or in burnout, right?
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And so that's like a pillar.
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And then you could have a pillar on sort of what to do once you've recognized that you've reached burnout.
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So sort of what are the strategies or kind of like interventions, right?
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Like once you've reached burnout.
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And then I think as a therapist too, as you're building your personal brand online, like it's also okay to share some like personal stuff too.
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And, you know, as it relates to, you know, self-disclosure, every everyone needs to kind of do what they're most comfortable with.
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But like I've seen that be a successful content pillar as well, you know, someone talking about say their own experience as a burnout, as a mom who has burned out, and that's why it led them to work with this particular population, right?
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So they're talking about their own story and background, and that could be a great kind of third pillar for your content that makes you, you know, relatable to your audience.
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We've really seen a shift, I think, over the last like five to eight years, I guess, with like, you know, it used to be no self-disclosure, but now I feel like every therapist on Instagram or whatever that's trying to get attract new clients, I mean, super personal stuff.
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Like I was right where you are, and this is how I got through it, kind of thing.
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So, so you feel like that's a good strategy if you're comfortable, I guess, with disclosing your story.
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I think so.
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Yeah, I think the kind of the rule of thumb that I've heard and I've asked therapists about this extensively, is that like if it's in service of the client, then it's okay to talk about indisclosed, right?
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If it's going to help build rapport, build that therapeutic alliance and relationship.
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If it's like in service of you, then you probably should just keep that to yourself.
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Um but yeah, I I don't know.
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I I think again, like it's it's a personal preference.
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Yeah.
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But I think that when someone is looking for a therapist, it's a very different buying decision, right?
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Than looking for an electrician or like looking for a plumber to come to my house, right?
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Like if I'm looking for a like a service provider like that, I'm probably looking at their reviews, like, are their testimonials?
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Like with a therapist, it's a much more personal, kind of an emotional decision.
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And so, you know, I'm looking for someone who I feel like I could relate to, who would understand me, who you know, I would get along with.
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And so, you know, the more that you can show that kind of who you are, show up authentically in your content, I think you're gonna attract people who are like-minded and you're gonna attract clients that you want to work with.
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And maybe that might turn some people off, depending on your content.
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Like, I have a friend Patrick Cassal, who we were just chatting about.
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Like, he curses in his content.
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If you look at his website, he has curse words on his website.
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That's just like who he is.
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And like some therapists might say, like, I would never do that, but he does, and that's who he is.
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And I think that authenticity is a a big part of why he's successful, because he you know attracts people who are like, Oh wow, I I love that this this guy is just like unfiltered and you know himself.
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He's someone that you know I feel like I could work with.
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Right, that makes perfect sense.
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It's it's part of his brand, right?
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He cusses a lot, yeah.
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Or, you know, knowing Patrick, he likes Lord of the Rings, you know, like I kind of know his brand a little bit, but he that's kind of his personality, and he puts it out there.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So if you're comfortable with it, I like that.
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If you're it's your comfort level and then putting it out there so your client can figure out if they relate to you or not, and then they want to work with you and they figure out, yeah, you you love game of thrust.
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I think there's yeah, there's there's a line, right?
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Like, I think that kind of like sharing your interests can be helpful.
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Like there's another therapist I know who like loves Disney, and that's like a big part of what they post about.
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And like that's great, you know.
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But if you're posting like what you had for lunch today, it's like I don't know that people are really gonna care about that.
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So then that sort of becomes like more of like a personal Instagram page, right?
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Versus like kind of as a as a brand for your therapy practice.
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So I think there's like there's a line I would probably draw there.
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We're not like sharing everything that's happening in our personal lives, and some, you know, some therapists that I'm connected with, they'll share about themselves, but maybe they won't post about their romantic relationship or they won't share their kids, right?
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Like there's parts of their life that they keep private, even though they disclose things about themselves.
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Um and that's intentional.
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Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
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Yeah.
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I mean, if I'm if I want to work with burnout moms, I'm probably want to talk about being burned out sometimes and the kids that I have.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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If you feel comfortable with it.
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Yeah.
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So can we talk about AI?
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I mean, that's that's a big topic, especially with content creation.
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In fact, I just did a webinar recently that taught therapists how to build so like social media content creation machines using AI.
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So I'd love to talk about like your thought on it and like the dudes and adults and how to help help people, you know, do it.
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If you don't think they should use AI, like what should they do to make that an easy process for them?
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Well, I know before we hit record, I was sharing with you that you know you are one of the first therapists that I saw talk about AI.
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Like everyone talks about AI now, right?
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But you've been talking about AI for for a long time, and so you really know this stuff.
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I'm I'm curious your take on this.
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So my general perspective, and I will say that it's still forming because this is all very new, is that in general, I wouldn't recommend using AI to create content.
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So, you know, using AI to write posts for LinkedIn, for example, or using a like AI video avatar of yourself to create videos on social media.
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Like, I just think as a therapist going back to authenticity, I think authenticity is so important in how you connect with potential clients.
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I think AI is not good enough yet that you can't tell if it was written by AI or created by AI or not.
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Like I think we still, as like humans, have a pretty good gauge of what's AI and what's not.
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So I think when it comes to content creation, I think that my recommendation would be in general to stay away from using AI.
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I think it can feel like a shortcut, right?
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Like, oh, I can just put in Chat GPT, you know, write me 10 LinkedIn posts or write me a blog post.
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Um and it's much more efficient.
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But you I think you lose that authenticity.
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I think you also lose originality, right?
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This is an argument that I've heard, like if you're using AI to write 10 LinkedIn posts about anxiety, like someone else could use AI to write the exact same posts, right?
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Yeah.
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So like it's the it's not it's not original.
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Um with that said, I think there are definitely opportunities to use AI in content marketing.
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I think a big one is in doing research, like coming up with topics.
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That's something that I use Chat GPT for.
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You know, I'll like ask Chat GPT questions and try to brainstorm, kind of use it as like a research assistant.
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Um, I also think in kind of like content production, you know, you could take this podcast recording, use AI to cut up clips for social media.
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I think that's a great use case for AI.
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Yeah.
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So I'm curious your reaction to that, too.
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No, I I agree with that, and I really run into that a lot, especially like in my clinical AI club.
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A lot of people come in and they're like, Yeah, I'm trying to use Chat GPT to write social media and it sounds terrible, nobody clicks, I get no engagement, that sort of thing.
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You know, so I just I do a lot of coaching around, you know, developing what your brand is in the first in the first point.
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Like you're talking about, like first, like you're just what you're saying, my niche, what's my brand, what's my personality, you know, all of those things that make you unique in you.
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And then you've got to train the AI to know who you are, how you talk, by uploading like content that, you know, transcripts of how you talk to people, that sort of thing.
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So I feel like if you're not doing that in the beginning, it's gonna be terrible, you know.
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And then, you know, once it does create content for you, like reading it back out loud and and asking yourself, does this sound like AI wrote this?
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And if it does, going back in and training again and saying, I need you to sound like a human, like look at this transcript.
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This is how I talk, you know.
00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:15.000
I I use contractions.
00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:21.559
I don't say, you know, I cannot, I say can't, you know, or if it's Patrick, I cuss a lot, you know.
00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:37.319
Right, you know, so trying to trying to like really nuance that out, and then of course, still having like a super critical eye if you go back and use it because there's tons of like giveaways, like the M dashes and there's like kind of cliches it does that just sounds very AI.
00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:46.039
So I think being like really well versed in that before you try to just go hop on Chat GPT and write a social media post is helpful, yeah.
00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:47.240
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:47.319 --> 00:19:00.519
I think I think if you are going to use AI to create content, I think the important like step that you're mentioning here is use it as a way to create a first draft, right?
00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:04.200
Like have it draft something for you and then edit it, change it into your own voice.
00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:22.920
So, you know, if it can get it 75% of the way there, and then you can take that and then you can edit it to sound like you maybe add more of a unique perspective or you know, something that you feel strongly about or or whatever that feels more unique, then I think that that's okay too.
00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:24.359
Yeah, totally.
00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:30.039
And you know, I'm kind of getting into like the Sora videos of myself lately, you know.
00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:35.160
But basically, Sora Sora is like chat GPT is video content creation for anybody listening.
00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:42.599
And you can like upload a cameo, like it's basically it's a video of yourself, and then you just tell it to do things, like you're sitting at your desk typing, and it looks like a video of you.
00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:59.400
I mean, you could tell it's AI, yeah, but it also it's it's interesting because I've like tested these, like I'll put some of the AI ones on, and it's really interesting because I get a lot of engagement on the AI ones, not people saying, Oh my god, that's AI, but just like people stopping and looking, trying to figure out if it is AI.
00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:00.759
So I don't know.
00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:04.120
For my brand using AI, that's that's been an interesting journey.
00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:09.079
And I wonder in the future how that's gonna be with just therapists like marketing, that sort of thing.
00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:16.120
Like in as we incorporate AI more into like the therapy room, if that's gonna be a marketing strategy in the future, I don't know.
00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:18.680
Yeah, just interesting to think about.
00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:19.079
Yeah.
00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:29.079
Yeah, I I know I was on Psychology Today recently because I was looking into therapists who had uploaded videos to Psychology Today.
00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:41.240
And I don't know if you've seen this, but now in the Psychology Today feed, so if you search for a therapist in Providence, Rhode Island, which is where I live, right, you get the results.
00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:47.799
And then about halfway down the page, there's videos of therapists who've uploaded a video to their psychology today profile.
00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:53.960
So they're actually showing up now in the search results to encourage, I think, and probably just encourage people to upload videos.
00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:59.880
And I was scrolling through those videos just to get a sense of what these videos looked like.
00:20:59.960 --> 00:21:05.240
And I think the third or fourth one that I watched was like very, like very clearly an AI video.
00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:18.120
For me, it's like okay, like this guy clearly just like made this video and it's just like very obviously like his hands, you know, they'd have like the AI thing, and it's just like I don't know, it doesn't do anything for me.
00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:30.680
Um now I think if like for you, AI is part of your brand and your content and what you talk about, and like so I think it's okay that you're experimenting with AI to create content, and people might even expect that from you.
00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:38.759
And I think that would be cool for you to like use AI to create content, share it, talk about it, give people's reaction, like create a conversation about it.
00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:54.359
Like, I think that's that's an interesting way to think about it versus like I'm just gonna use this AI tool to create this like intro video of myself because you know I don't I don't want to record a video, or it's it's just easier to do that.
00:21:54.680 --> 00:21:56.359
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:21:56.599 --> 00:21:58.120
Yeah, it's an interesting topic.
00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:05.880
I'm so curious to see how it's gonna evolve because as you said, I've been into it for a long time and I'm kind of a real geek when it goes to and trying to figure out.
00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:17.400
I'm always actually trying to find shortcuts, and that's why I'm so obsessed with AI, I think, and and trying to figure out a way to get really good content creation because it's it's like soul sucking for a lot of therapists, you know, to be able to do that.
00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:27.000
And I think places like your newsletter, I downloaded it's really great newsletter, you know, offer a lot of really good strategies to help.
00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:31.079
Therapists move along with this without using AI.
00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:35.319
There's tips, tricks, that sort of thing in there to help therapists like get really easy content creation.
00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:36.599
I think that's amazing.
00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:38.200
Because it's the hardest part of it.
00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:43.960
I think you know, everybody just wants to be a therapist, but then you've got to worry about all this other stuff on top of it, you know.
00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:44.839
Definitely.
00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:48.759
Yeah, and that's something that I tell therapists all the time.
00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:54.680
I actually just had a call with a therapist this week who asked me, Do I need to be on Instagram?
00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:58.200
I I feel like my all of my colleagues are on Instagram.
00:22:58.279 --> 00:22:59.319
I'm not on Instagram.
00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:04.200
And I said, Well, why do you like why do you need to be on Instagram?
00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:05.000
Do you need clients?
00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:07.480
And she said, Well, no, like my practice is full.
00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:25.400
And I was like, Okay, well, if you don't need it for your business and it's not something that you particularly enjoy doing, you know, if you're not someone who likes to create content and you're on Instagram as someone who's consuming content on the platform, then no, I don't think you need to be on Instagram, right?
00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:32.120
So I think there's this pressure that a lot of therapists feel when it comes to creating content, being on social media.
00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:37.160
It's like, well, I just I feel like I need to because other people are.
00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:46.680
And so I just I guess that gives hopefully permission for people not to if they don't feel like they want to, if that makes sense.
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:49.400
Yeah, I I I love that message.
00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:49.960
Definitely.
00:23:50.120 --> 00:23:53.400
You don't have to just like do what everybody else is doing to try to get clients.
00:23:53.640 --> 00:24:02.039
What are some other ways that people can content market without being on like social media that you recommend or help people with?
00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:03.000
Hmm.
00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:08.440
I mean, I I think this is a great way to kind of do content marketing, right?
00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:17.319
Is either host a podcast, partner with a company who you know is hosting a podcast like you're doing, or even be a guest on a podcast, right?
00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:20.200
Because correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this will go on YouTube, right?
00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:21.240
And it'll go on social media.
00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:28.519
And so this is a great way to kind of do content marketing in a sort of more like just it's like a low-key way, right?
00:24:28.599 --> 00:24:33.960
Like you can just come on, have a conversation, and then this like content is created from it, which is great.
00:24:34.120 --> 00:24:36.759
Um, but yeah, I mean, social media is just one way, right?
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:43.480
Like I'm a huge fan of email marketing, which is like a whole nother conversation to be had.
00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:58.359
Um, but I think, you know, what I'll say about email is that email is what I would describe as an owned audience, meaning you have a direct relationship with your email subscribers.
00:24:58.599 --> 00:25:04.359
Whereas if you build an audience on social media, I would describe that as a borrowed audience, right?
00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:10.759
Like you're at the mercy of an algorithm, you're building this audience on a third-party platform.
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:17.480
Um, you you know, you could have a huge TikTok following, and then TikTok could go away.
00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:17.960
Yeah.
00:25:18.120 --> 00:25:21.079
And so I'm always talking to therapists about building an email list.
00:25:21.240 --> 00:25:22.759
It's way more defensible.
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:30.359
And so as you're thinking about, you know, doing content marketing and building an audience, how are you getting people onto an email list?
00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:38.279
Are you offering what you know what we call a lead magnet, some kind of like downloadable content that people can give their email for?
00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:45.559
You know, maybe you're hosting a free webinar is another great content marketing tactic.
00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:48.359
And you know, people sign up for that webinar, give their email address.
00:25:48.519 --> 00:26:06.920
So I'm always thinking about you know, the content I'm creating, okay, the end goal is to get people to join my email list because then once they're on my email list, then I can continue to provide them value, going back to what we talked about in the beginning through a weekly newsletter that's helpful for them.
00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:19.160
And at some point, if I have a course that I'm offering or, you know, something, a product that I'm selling, now I have this audience that then I can, you know, offer that to.
00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:19.799
Yeah.
00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:20.279
Yeah.
00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:22.839
No, I I know that my email list is gold.
00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:28.279
I mean, it's, you know, I've built it for years, and it's just so important to to do that and have it.
00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:31.720
I have lots of Facebook groups, but it literally could go away tomorrow.
00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:36.279
I've heard people get their groups shut down for weird reasons, for no reason, really.
00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:42.359
So it's yeah, it's definitely scary to think about not having your own list somewhere.
00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:46.440
So a freebie or like a lead magnet, do you have any tips around that?
00:26:46.519 --> 00:26:48.039
Like how to because people ask me that a lot.
00:26:48.120 --> 00:26:52.039
It's like, well, I don't know what I don't know what to offer, or how do I even come up with that?
00:26:52.120 --> 00:26:55.799
Do you have any tips on how to think of a freebie to get people on your email list?
00:26:56.120 --> 00:27:02.039
Yeah, I mean, I I think that going back to you know, content marketing be being a value exchange.
00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:04.039
I feel like I've said value a hundred times.
00:27:04.200 --> 00:27:06.680
It's like it just needs to be valuable, it needs to be helpful, right?
00:27:06.759 --> 00:27:06.920
Yeah.
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:14.120
I think, yeah, if you're just putting something up that isn't helpful, people aren't gonna, you know, they're not gonna want it, right?
00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:33.400
But if you have like a private practice checklist, for example, and you are marketing to therapists or your audience as therapists who are starting private practice, that's a great example of a a lead magnet or what I would call gated content, meaning you have to give your email address in order to get access to it.
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:43.079
Um, so I think when I think about like a lead magnet, typically it can be like a one-page PDF, so a checklist, a cheat sheet, something like that.
00:27:43.319 --> 00:27:48.599
I think on my my newsletter website, I have like a marketing cheat sheet.
00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:51.480
So like that's one option.
00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:57.079
I've also seen people offer like ebooks as a kind of free, free download.
00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:09.079
If you do a webinar, you could just take the video recording and offer that as well as something that I've seen, or even just creating like a five, 10, 15-minute video on a particular topic.
00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:17.160
But I think something that is is helpful to your target audience, I think, is sort of where I would start.
00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:29.720
And if there's you know, a particular topic that you find resonates most with your audience, going back to those content pillars we had talked about, um, that's like a good place to focus.
00:28:30.120 --> 00:28:41.640
I would say so at Herd, for example, you know, we found that whenever we talked about tax write-offs or tax deductions, oh, yeah, it got a lot of engagement, right?
00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:45.400
Because everybody's a therapist who wouldn't want to save money on their taxes, right?
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:49.400
And so we wrote a guide to tax write-offs for therapists.
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:54.839
And if you search Google tax write-offs for therapists, it's the number one search result now that comes up.
00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:55.400
Wow.
00:28:55.640 --> 00:29:07.079
And now if you click on that guide, within the guide, kind of in the like in line, there's a there's a button where you can download a tax deduction cheat sheet for therapists, right?
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:14.359
So it's associated with the the blog posts or the you know the on-site content, and then it's a a free download.
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:15.240
Really smart.
00:29:15.799 --> 00:29:22.519
Has been you know downloaded a bunch of times and generated a lot of emails for the herd email list.
00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:23.640
That's amazing.
00:29:23.799 --> 00:29:25.079
Yeah, really cool.
00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:36.120
So so can we talk about therapy marketer and how you like decided to start that and and what you do and how you help therapists through that business?
00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:37.160
Yeah, absolutely.
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:41.640
So I mentioned that I worked for the Gottman Institute for eight and a half years.
00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:48.359
And when I left, I really wanted to help therapists with marketing.
00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:56.839
And I I couldn't help like enough people, like I couldn't help all the therapists that I wanted to help as a service business.
00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:06.200
And so I started that newsletter as a way to just kind of extend kind of my reach and share knowledge and you know, hopefully help more therapists.
00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:09.880
And so I I think I started it in 2020, 2021.
00:30:09.960 --> 00:30:17.480
So I've been writing it for about five years now, and it has like just over 3,000 therapists on the list.
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:26.599
And and yeah, so I I really share like a lot of it is you know, like very kind of distilled down takeaways for folks.
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:34.759
My my goal is like each newsletter, there should just be like one thing that people can take away and apply to their to their practice.
00:30:35.480 --> 00:30:48.200
Um, and so some of that is just like kind of general marketing and and branding, kind of like concepts that I distill down for therapists, but also it's just what I'm learning, like things that I'm reading, things that I'm seeing.
00:30:48.440 --> 00:30:53.559
And AI is something I've been talking about more recently, which isn't something that I talked about five years ago, right?
00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:56.920
Because it just wasn't wasn't really like a thing yet.
00:30:57.079 --> 00:31:04.440
Um, so so yeah, I'm also just kind of sharing what I'm learning and also sharing kind of like my point of view or perspective on it.
00:31:04.519 --> 00:31:07.960
And I think that that that's important when we think about content, right?
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:11.240
Is like what is my point of view?
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:12.200
What is my perspective?
00:31:12.279 --> 00:31:15.559
What am I adding to this topic or conversation?
00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:20.440
Otherwise, like someone could probably just search on Chat GPT for that answer, right?
00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:20.839
Right.
00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:25.720
You're not just like regurgitating information, you're actually putting like your unique spin on it.
00:31:25.880 --> 00:31:26.279
Yeah.
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:26.920
Mm-hmm.
00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:28.440
So interesting.
00:31:28.759 --> 00:31:35.160
Have you been talking much about you know, AI becoming a search engine and marketing?
00:31:35.319 --> 00:31:37.559
So you're showing up on Chat GPT.
00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:40.039
That's you know, really been a hot topic.
00:31:40.120 --> 00:31:45.880
People have been asking me about like the ask engine optimization versus you know, SEO and that sort of thing.
00:31:46.120 --> 00:31:48.599
Just wonder if you're in that realm at all.
00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:50.120
I am, yeah.
00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:58.039
This is one of the I laugh because I feel like what I'm starting to see on LinkedIn in particular is like SEO is dead.
00:31:58.440 --> 00:31:58.680
Yeah.
00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:00.039
I saw this post yesterday.
00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:01.400
It was like blogging is dead.
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:08.599
Like, I don't know about every time something new comes out, people always think like the old thing is you know is dead or doesn't exist.
00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:09.480
People love to say that.
00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:12.599
Um like what we know, yeah.
00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:13.400
No, exactly.
00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:15.799
It's it's like good engagement bait, I guess.
00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:24.440
But you know, what we know about like what I've heard is it's called GEO generative engine optimization or okay, like SEO for AI.
00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:28.920
It's the same kind of basic principles that apply to SEO.
00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:38.279
And so when you search on ChatGPT, right, like when you're using an AI tool, it's it's largely pulling results from Google and search engines.
00:32:38.759 --> 00:32:46.759
And so it's like the same kind of basic SEO principles will help you to show up in in AI search.
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:57.640
And so I would be somewhat wary of people who claim to be like AI search or you know, LLM like experts, just because it's like also new.
00:32:57.799 --> 00:32:58.120
Yeah.
00:32:58.279 --> 00:33:04.680
Um, then there's definitely an opportunity, right, for people to come in and help companies show up in AI searches.
00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:18.440
But the the one thing that I have seen about AI search versus Google search is that historically Google really values backlinks, so like links to your website, right?
00:33:18.599 --> 00:33:27.079
So if there's a lot of websites that link to your website, especially if those other websites are what Google would consider high authority.
00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:30.120
So they get a lot of traffic, they have content.
00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:36.039
If those websites link to your website, Google would consider your website high authority.
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:40.440
And so that's why you kind of backlinking is kind of an SEO strategy, right?
00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:42.359
Like getting other websites to link to your website.
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:50.440
What I've heard with AI search is it's less about backlinking and more just about your name or your brand being mentioned.
00:33:50.680 --> 00:34:03.160
Um, and so as if you're like being mentioned on other websites or people are talking about you or your brand, or you're appearing on podcasts, or maybe you're guest blogging, or you're you're sort of like your name is showing up.
00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:06.120
It's kind of more about frequency, if that makes sense.
00:34:06.680 --> 00:34:16.279
Um and so like the actual link itself isn't as important, it's more about the mention because AI is just like searching the internet essentially for mentions of you and and your brand.
00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:19.239
So that's like one thing that I've heard as a difference.
00:34:19.639 --> 00:34:22.199
So take that for what it is.
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:37.000
Um but I think the the takeaway for me, at least at this point, is like creating content for your website that you know is shows expertise, authority, and trustworthiness, that EAT that you see in SEO.
00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:45.559
Yeah, like if you're doing that and you're showing up on Google search, like the likelihood that you're gonna show up in AI search is is pretty good.
00:34:46.439 --> 00:34:47.239
That's great.
00:34:47.399 --> 00:34:48.359
Those are great tips.
00:34:48.519 --> 00:34:49.239
Oh my goodness.
00:34:49.479 --> 00:34:50.839
Yeah, I mean, who knows where it's gonna be.
00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:51.639
Something else.
00:34:51.959 --> 00:34:52.519
Yeah, okay.
00:34:52.839 --> 00:34:53.559
Yeah, no, totally.
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:54.279
And it's always changing.
00:34:54.359 --> 00:35:13.079
And something else I would just add, and we we saw this at Heard over the last like year or so, is that you know, I mentioned if you search tax deductions or tax write-offs for therapists, historically, what you get on what you get back, right, is like a list of links.
00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:13.399
Yeah.
00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:19.000
And so you click the first link or the second link and you'd go to the website and you'd read the the content.
00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:25.959
Now, what a lot of people do is they search tax write-offs for therapists or tax deductions for therapists.
00:35:26.199 --> 00:35:31.719
And instead of clicking through to the link in the search result, they just read the AI summary.
00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:36.519
So that's what shows up now under the at the top of the search result.
00:35:36.919 --> 00:35:40.919
So we're seeing click-through rate go down because of that.
00:35:41.879 --> 00:35:46.759
Now that AI summary is pulling from sources, right?
00:35:46.919 --> 00:35:53.799
So, you know, people are still like seeing, could be seeing your name or your brand mention, but that's something that's it's making it more difficult.
00:35:54.039 --> 00:36:01.079
And that's one sort of reason why I think people now are saying that SEO, you know, isn't as effective.
00:36:01.399 --> 00:36:11.799
But I I don't know, I'm not I'm not convinced that it doesn't I don't think that it means that you know SEO is dead or it's not something that you should be investing in, but still.
00:36:12.359 --> 00:36:12.839
Definitely.
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:17.079
I mean, I it couldn't hurt to put yourself all over the place with backlinks and that sort of thing.
00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:19.319
I mean, that couldn't be a bad strategy, I don't think.
00:36:19.479 --> 00:36:20.039
Yeah.
00:36:20.279 --> 00:36:20.599
Yeah.
00:36:20.759 --> 00:36:26.919
And then it would feed the AI too, the generative search, too, if you're like showing up all over the place that way, too.
00:36:27.879 --> 00:36:29.079
Very interesting.
00:36:29.479 --> 00:36:30.839
So thank you.
00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:37.319
So many good tips and strategies and just like helping people get from a starting point because I think it it really is.
00:36:37.399 --> 00:36:40.279
And I'm sure you've seen it over your career just for therapists.
00:36:40.359 --> 00:36:42.439
It's just this is such a hard topic for therapists.
00:36:42.519 --> 00:36:43.799
Like, how do I market myself?
00:36:44.119 --> 00:36:47.239
So, how how do you help therapists market themselves?
00:36:47.399 --> 00:36:58.599
Like, what do you we had the therapy marketer, the wonderful newsletter, and that sort of thing, but what do you do like strategy-wise, or how do you work with therapists just for somebody that's listening and might want to look you up and talk to you?
00:36:58.919 --> 00:36:59.479
Yeah, absolutely.
00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:02.439
So I offer marketing consulting calls.
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:05.239
So these are just 60-minute, you know, conversations.
00:37:05.399 --> 00:37:17.239
If if you're listening and you're like, wow, this sounds really interesting, or I have a particular question, or there's something that I've been like trying to figure out and I'm it's just not working, I'd I'd love to jump on a call.
00:37:17.399 --> 00:37:20.519
And that's like the best way to just pick my brain.
00:37:20.759 --> 00:37:37.399
And then also I do kind of longer-term engagements as well, you know, say where I'll work with therapists kind of on an ongoing basis and we meet once a month or twice a month, and we kind of talk about their practice and what's going on, and I'll give them, you know, kind of a roadmap to follow.
00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:38.439
That's awesome.
00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:40.599
Yeah, that sounds really helpful.
00:37:40.839 --> 00:37:50.119
And is it do you mainly like focus on like therapists that are just like focus on their private practice, or do you help with other like side income, side hustles, that sort of thing?
00:37:50.199 --> 00:37:56.839
Like somebody like me, maybe that's got, you know, clients, but also maybe some other income streams and trying to market that way.
00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:58.279
Do you help with that as well?
00:37:58.599 --> 00:37:59.559
Yeah, definitely.
00:37:59.879 --> 00:38:06.839
I would say, you know, it's therapists who are kind of just getting started and they're just trying to figure out how do I, how do I market myself?
00:38:06.919 --> 00:38:13.319
Sort of the what are sort of the basic kind of marketing foundations that I need to set up.
00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:16.519
Who is my ideal client trying to, you know, figure that out, right?
00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:17.879
What is my niche?
00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:41.879
And then yes, I also work with therapists who, you know, maybe they're full in their private practice and they're interested in exploring other income streams, for example, or they're expanding into a group practice, or maybe they want to cut down on their caseload a little bit so they can do kind of other stuff, or maybe they're a practice that's launching kind of a new offering for their you know business.
00:38:42.039 --> 00:38:46.279
I work with uh a group practice who's now offering leadership consulting.
00:38:46.359 --> 00:38:51.079
And so we've talked about okay, how do we get that off the ground and come up with a marketing plan for that?
00:38:51.319 --> 00:39:01.799
Because when you introduce a new service, right, the way that you market that service might be different than kind of what you're used to doing just to get therapy clients.
00:39:02.599 --> 00:39:10.279
Definitely, definitely, but it's a different like genre altogether, like leadership versus like how do I get another client in the door, kind of thing.
00:39:10.359 --> 00:39:11.799
Yeah, that's so cool.
00:39:11.959 --> 00:39:13.319
So, where do people find you?
00:39:13.399 --> 00:39:16.679
What's the websites or the links where they go to find you?
00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:22.039
So, my my personal website is just my name, Michael Fulweiler.com.
00:39:22.439 --> 00:39:29.159
My newsletter is therapymarketer.co, just because therapymarketer.com was taken, unfortunately.
00:39:29.319 --> 00:39:33.079
So if you own that, want to sell it to me, uh yeah.
00:39:33.159 --> 00:39:37.559
If you just Google Therapy Marketer as well, hopefully my SEO is good enough that it will show up.
00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:42.679
But yeah, and in terms of social media, I find myself more active these days on LinkedIn.
00:39:42.839 --> 00:39:52.759
You know, going back to like social media platforms changing, I used to be more active on Twitter and just Twitter has changed a lot in the last you know few years.
00:39:52.919 --> 00:40:01.879
And I I've noticed like the community that I kind of was engaging with on Twitter is now more on LinkedIn, and so I find myself more on LinkedIn these days.
00:40:01.959 --> 00:40:06.359
So I think if you're you know looking to connect on social media, I would connect with me there.
00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:08.199
Yeah, I definitely follow you over there.
00:40:08.279 --> 00:40:10.839
And I love your posts, they're very interesting and informed.
00:40:10.919 --> 00:40:11.959
They're always interesting.
00:40:12.119 --> 00:40:12.679
Yeah.
00:40:12.919 --> 00:40:15.079
I'm like, I'm like, what's he talking about today?
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:16.039
Yeah.
00:40:16.279 --> 00:40:18.119
Well, thanks so much for taking the time today.
00:40:18.199 --> 00:40:19.000
This is super helpful.
00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:24.759
I think it's gonna help a lot of people just kind of get over that hump and figure out how to start marketing their practice better.
00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:33.479
Between sessions is brought to you by Berries because clinicians deserve support too.
00:40:33.719 --> 00:40:41.079
To learn how berries can help you streamline your notes, if you're stressed, and make space for what matters most, visit hayberries.com.
00:00:27.319 --> 00:00:31.399
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Between Sessions with Berries.
00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:36.280
Today's guest, I'm super excited to have him here today, is Michael Fulweiler.
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He's a marketing strategist, copywriter, and creative director with over a decade of experience in mental health marketing.
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He's the creator of Therapy Marketer, a go-to newsletter for therapists, and the founder of Folweiler Media, where he helps mental health brands grow through content marketing that actually works.
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He's also held leadership roles at Heard and the Gottman Institute.
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And today he's here to talk about the intersection of therapy, AI, and content and how to make smarter marketing decisions without losing your voice.
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You hold space for others every day.
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This space is for you.
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Welcome to Between Sessions with Barry, the podcast where mental health professionals have real conversations to simplify documentation, fight burnout, and reconnect with the work they love.
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Michael, welcome.
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I'm so excited to have you here.
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Thank you, Kim.
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Excited to be here.
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It's a great intro.
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I was listening back to a few of the uh most recent episodes of the podcast, and I have to say that you do great intros.
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So we're off to a good start.
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Well, thank you.
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Yeah.
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AI helps me, I should say.
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Sure, we can talk about that.
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Yeah, yeah, definitely.
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So your background includes really big names.
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When I was reading you bio, I was like, this is so cool.
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So you were a marketer or like in a role at the Gottman Institute and with Heard.
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So how did you get started in mental health marketing and you know, into those places?
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I guess you like, did you learn from the Gottman Institute or did you go in with a really strong marketing background?
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I'd love to just like hear your history a little bit because I find that stuff so interesting.
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No, to be completely honest, I got into mental health marketing by accident.
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I was an English literature major at the University of Washington.
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I thought that I was going to go to law school and be a lawyer in my senior year.
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I got an internship at the Gottman Institute.
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It was a marketing internship and just really fell in love both with marketing but also with the mental health space.
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And that was in 2011.
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And so once I graduated in 2012, they offered me a full-time role.
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And I I stayed at the Gottman Institute for almost 10 years.
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I was there for eight and a half years.
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By the end, I was the chief marketing officer.
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I had built out the entire marketing team there and just such a wonderful opportunity for me.
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I think he did a really good job being there because I mean he doesn't know who the Gottman Institute is at this point.
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You know, I mean, they're like world renowned.
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So that's amazing.
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Content marketing, let's talk about what that means a little bit because I mean I kind of know what it is, but maybe the average therapist listening, they probably like, I don't even know what content marketing is.
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So maybe we could get into that a little bit and what that entails.
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When people hear content marketing, they might think about posting on social media or they might think about writing blog posts for your website, which these are forms of content marketing, but really like when it's distilled down, content marketing is a value exchange.
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And what I mean by that is as a therapist, before you can ask for cash value for your services, it's important to provide use value through the form of content.
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And so by writing articles and blog posts for your website, by posting on social media, you're building trust, you're building authority, you're building thought leadership, all of these things that, you know, are going to make clients more likely to book that first session with you.
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And so the way that I like to think about it is, you know, providing use value, and that's very key.
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And we can talk about what that actually means.
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But you know, that your content is valuable for people, it's helpful, it's educational, it can even be entertainment value, right?
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It doesn't have to be so serious all the time.
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There's therapists who have great, you know, social media accounts that are just really funny, providing entertainment value value, excuse me.
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But really, you're providing value, and that's a way to grow an audience, build your reputation, and make it more likely for potential clients not just to reach out, but also to to book that session with you.
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Amazing.
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Let's talk about that.
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What is like use useful content versus maybe just like just random stuff you throw out on the internet?
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Like there's a strategy behind this, right?
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Like how to be like thoughtful in your content, how to like incorporate it into your brand, and then how to make it like helpful for people so they actually find that you care about helping them, I guess.
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Like how can we talk about that?
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Like the strategy behind it and how how you go about that?
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When I work with you know a company or with a therapist to build out a strategy for content marketing, it really starts with your audience.
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And really any marketing strategy, right, starts with the who.
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So who are you trying to reach with your content?
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And that's super important.
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As a therapist, that's your ideal client or the population that you want to work with.
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And so once you've identified the who, then you can identify the types of problems that they have, the things that they're struggling with, the questions that they have.
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And then you can create content to answer those questions that they have.
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And that's really gonna provide them with value, right?
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These are things that they're struggling with.
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And so if, you know, say they're an athlete who's struggling with like performance anxiety, if if I come across a performance psychologist who's talking about these things on Instagram, that's gonna pique my interest, right?
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It's it's speaking to me.
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Oh, this is this is really helpful.
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Let me check this person out, let me go look at their website, right?
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So it really starts with the who.
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And I think where a lot of therapists kind of start start to go wrong or the mistake that they make with content marketing is they don't have clarity on who they're creating content for.
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That's where I I like to start.
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Any tips for that?
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I mean, I feel like it's niching down, right?
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Or like figuring out like who am I actually speaking to?
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Do you have tips for that?
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Because I hear that a lot too, like in the coaching realm, you know, people come to me and say, I don't know, I just want to like teach people about anxiety or whatever.
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And it's like, well, that's probably not gonna work because everybody's talk talking about anxiety.
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You need it to be like specifically about this person with anxiety, right?
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So when we talk about, you know, defining your audience for content or even your ideal client, your niche for your therapy practice, it really has two components.
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One is a demographic, right?
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So, you know, a type of person, say it's working moms.
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So that's kind of the demographic or the population.
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And then there also is a second part, and this part I think gets overlooked, and that's the presenting concern to use clinical language, right?
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It's like what is the problem that they're struggling with?
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It's working moms struggling with burnout or something like that, right?
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So it's like that's a great niche, and so it's it's a demographic and then a problem.
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And so when you're starting to think about or even refining who you think your, you know, your target audience is for your content or your ideal client for your therapy practice, it really needs to check both of those boxes.
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So once you've figured that part out, how does that translate then into like, I mean, I could see how the blog posts, but like for somebody listening that maybe has never even thought about having an Instagram account or something like that, how do you take that niche and then translate it into something special out there that's actually going to attract a client to you?
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Yeah.
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So I think for a lot of fields, creating, coming up with content ideas for social media, for example, for you know, email, for, for blog, for blogging can be a challenge.
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Like you really need to do audience research, keyword research.
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But for a therapist, like you're talking in theory, right?
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You're talking to your ideal clients every day.
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And so you you should have a like a general idea of the types of things that they're struggling with, the questions that they have.
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You know, these are questions that you're getting on your, if you're offering consultation calls or your intake calls in session, right?
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Obviously, you're not disclosing confidential, you know, conversations you're having with clients, but if you're starting to see themes come up in your practice, those are great ideas and can be inspiration for topics to create content around.
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And when we when we start to get to, okay, I've identified who I'm creating content for, who my audience is.
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Now I'm sort of moving into what am I creating content about?
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I would recommend sticking to what I would call content pillars.
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So say two or three things.
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These are the things that I'm going to talk about related to my niche and you know, experience and expertise as it relates to the specific population or audience that I'm trying to reach.
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So, like the burnout mom, for example, a niche that you might have.
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What what would be an example of like content pillars for that that somebody listening could learn how to develop their own content pillars?
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Because I guess is it different for every person, like what the content pillars would be, or is it kind of the same pillars for everybody?
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Did that make sense?
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Yeah.
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So for in that example, right, like you could have a whole content series or a whole content pillar on like signs of burnout, like how to recognize that you're approaching or in burnout, right?
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And so that's like a pillar.
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And then you could have a pillar on sort of what to do once you've recognized that you've reached burnout.
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So sort of what are the strategies or kind of like interventions, right?
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Like once you've reached burnout.
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And then I think as a therapist too, as you're building your personal brand online, like it's also okay to share some like personal stuff too.
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And, you know, as it relates to, you know, self-disclosure, every everyone needs to kind of do what they're most comfortable with.
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But like I've seen that be a successful content pillar as well, you know, someone talking about say their own experience as a burnout, as a mom who has burned out, and that's why it led them to work with this particular population, right?
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So they're talking about their own story and background, and that could be a great kind of third pillar for your content that makes you, you know, relatable to your audience.
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We've really seen a shift, I think, over the last like five to eight years, I guess, with like, you know, it used to be no self-disclosure, but now I feel like every therapist on Instagram or whatever that's trying to get attract new clients, I mean, super personal stuff.
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Like I was right where you are, and this is how I got through it, kind of thing.
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So, so you feel like that's a good strategy if you're comfortable, I guess, with disclosing your story.
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I think so.
00:11:00.279 --> 00:11:13.560
Yeah, I think the kind of the rule of thumb that I've heard and I've asked therapists about this extensively, is that like if it's in service of the client, then it's okay to talk about indisclosed, right?
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If it's going to help build rapport, build that therapeutic alliance and relationship.
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If it's like in service of you, then you probably should just keep that to yourself.
00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:23.639
Um but yeah, I I don't know.
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I I think again, like it's it's a personal preference.
00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:27.399
Yeah.
00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:35.159
But I think that when someone is looking for a therapist, it's a very different buying decision, right?
00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:41.080
Than looking for an electrician or like looking for a plumber to come to my house, right?
00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:48.840
Like if I'm looking for a like a service provider like that, I'm probably looking at their reviews, like, are their testimonials?
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Like with a therapist, it's a much more personal, kind of an emotional decision.
00:11:54.840 --> 00:12:01.799
And so, you know, I'm looking for someone who I feel like I could relate to, who would understand me, who you know, I would get along with.
00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:15.159
And so, you know, the more that you can show that kind of who you are, show up authentically in your content, I think you're gonna attract people who are like-minded and you're gonna attract clients that you want to work with.
00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:19.960
And maybe that might turn some people off, depending on your content.
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Like, I have a friend Patrick Cassal, who we were just chatting about.
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Like, he curses in his content.
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If you look at his website, he has curse words on his website.
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That's just like who he is.
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And like some therapists might say, like, I would never do that, but he does, and that's who he is.
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And I think that authenticity is a a big part of why he's successful, because he you know attracts people who are like, Oh wow, I I love that this this guy is just like unfiltered and you know himself.
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He's someone that you know I feel like I could work with.
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Right, that makes perfect sense.
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It's it's part of his brand, right?
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He cusses a lot, yeah.
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Or, you know, knowing Patrick, he likes Lord of the Rings, you know, like I kind of know his brand a little bit, but he that's kind of his personality, and he puts it out there.
00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:06.840
Yeah, exactly.
00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:08.680
So if you're comfortable with it, I like that.
00:13:08.759 --> 00:13:18.039
If you're it's your comfort level and then putting it out there so your client can figure out if they relate to you or not, and then they want to work with you and they figure out, yeah, you you love game of thrust.
00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:21.560
I think there's yeah, there's there's a line, right?
00:13:21.639 --> 00:13:27.240
Like, I think that kind of like sharing your interests can be helpful.
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Like there's another therapist I know who like loves Disney, and that's like a big part of what they post about.
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And like that's great, you know.
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But if you're posting like what you had for lunch today, it's like I don't know that people are really gonna care about that.
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So then that sort of becomes like more of like a personal Instagram page, right?
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Versus like kind of as a as a brand for your therapy practice.
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So I think there's like there's a line I would probably draw there.
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We're not like sharing everything that's happening in our personal lives, and some, you know, some therapists that I'm connected with, they'll share about themselves, but maybe they won't post about their romantic relationship or they won't share their kids, right?
00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:11.879
Like there's parts of their life that they keep private, even though they disclose things about themselves.
00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:13.879
Um and that's intentional.
00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:15.480
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:15.799
Yeah.
00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:21.320
I mean, if I'm if I want to work with burnout moms, I'm probably want to talk about being burned out sometimes and the kids that I have.
00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:21.960
Yeah.
00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:22.519
Right.
00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:23.960
If you feel comfortable with it.
00:14:24.039 --> 00:14:24.360
Yeah.
00:14:24.680 --> 00:14:27.000
So can we talk about AI?
00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:30.600
I mean, that's that's a big topic, especially with content creation.
00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:39.159
In fact, I just did a webinar recently that taught therapists how to build so like social media content creation machines using AI.
00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:47.879
So I'd love to talk about like your thought on it and like the dudes and adults and how to help help people, you know, do it.
00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:51.960
If you don't think they should use AI, like what should they do to make that an easy process for them?
00:14:52.279 --> 00:15:00.279
Well, I know before we hit record, I was sharing with you that you know you are one of the first therapists that I saw talk about AI.
00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:02.440
Like everyone talks about AI now, right?
00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:05.879
But you've been talking about AI for for a long time, and so you really know this stuff.
00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:08.519
I'm I'm curious your take on this.
00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:22.519
So my general perspective, and I will say that it's still forming because this is all very new, is that in general, I wouldn't recommend using AI to create content.
00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:34.919
So, you know, using AI to write posts for LinkedIn, for example, or using a like AI video avatar of yourself to create videos on social media.
00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:42.120
Like, I just think as a therapist going back to authenticity, I think authenticity is so important in how you connect with potential clients.
00:15:42.759 --> 00:15:49.560
I think AI is not good enough yet that you can't tell if it was written by AI or created by AI or not.
00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:55.639
Like I think we still, as like humans, have a pretty good gauge of what's AI and what's not.
00:15:56.039 --> 00:16:04.680
So I think when it comes to content creation, I think that my recommendation would be in general to stay away from using AI.
00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:07.399
I think it can feel like a shortcut, right?
00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:12.919
Like, oh, I can just put in Chat GPT, you know, write me 10 LinkedIn posts or write me a blog post.
00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:15.720
Um and it's much more efficient.
00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:18.039
But you I think you lose that authenticity.
00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:21.480
I think you also lose originality, right?
00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:31.879
This is an argument that I've heard, like if you're using AI to write 10 LinkedIn posts about anxiety, like someone else could use AI to write the exact same posts, right?
00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:32.279
Yeah.
00:16:32.519 --> 00:16:36.279
So like it's the it's not it's not original.
00:16:36.680 --> 00:16:43.480
Um with that said, I think there are definitely opportunities to use AI in content marketing.
00:16:43.560 --> 00:16:48.680
I think a big one is in doing research, like coming up with topics.
00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:51.159
That's something that I use Chat GPT for.
00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:58.120
You know, I'll like ask Chat GPT questions and try to brainstorm, kind of use it as like a research assistant.
00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:07.399
Um, I also think in kind of like content production, you know, you could take this podcast recording, use AI to cut up clips for social media.
00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:10.039
I think that's a great use case for AI.
00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:10.440
Yeah.
00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:12.759
So I'm curious your reaction to that, too.
00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:19.639
No, I I agree with that, and I really run into that a lot, especially like in my clinical AI club.
00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:27.879
A lot of people come in and they're like, Yeah, I'm trying to use Chat GPT to write social media and it sounds terrible, nobody clicks, I get no engagement, that sort of thing.
00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:35.240
You know, so I just I do a lot of coaching around, you know, developing what your brand is in the first in the first point.
00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:43.880
Like you're talking about, like first, like you're just what you're saying, my niche, what's my brand, what's my personality, you know, all of those things that make you unique in you.
00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:53.960
And then you've got to train the AI to know who you are, how you talk, by uploading like content that, you know, transcripts of how you talk to people, that sort of thing.
00:17:54.120 --> 00:17:59.240
So I feel like if you're not doing that in the beginning, it's gonna be terrible, you know.
00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:07.160
And then, you know, once it does create content for you, like reading it back out loud and and asking yourself, does this sound like AI wrote this?
00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:12.440
And if it does, going back in and training again and saying, I need you to sound like a human, like look at this transcript.
00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:13.799
This is how I talk, you know.
00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:15.000
I I use contractions.
00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:21.559
I don't say, you know, I cannot, I say can't, you know, or if it's Patrick, I cuss a lot, you know.
00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:37.319
Right, you know, so trying to trying to like really nuance that out, and then of course, still having like a super critical eye if you go back and use it because there's tons of like giveaways, like the M dashes and there's like kind of cliches it does that just sounds very AI.
00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:46.039
So I think being like really well versed in that before you try to just go hop on Chat GPT and write a social media post is helpful, yeah.
00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:47.240
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:47.319 --> 00:19:00.519
I think I think if you are going to use AI to create content, I think the important like step that you're mentioning here is use it as a way to create a first draft, right?
00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:04.200
Like have it draft something for you and then edit it, change it into your own voice.
00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:22.920
So, you know, if it can get it 75% of the way there, and then you can take that and then you can edit it to sound like you maybe add more of a unique perspective or you know, something that you feel strongly about or or whatever that feels more unique, then I think that that's okay too.
00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:24.359
Yeah, totally.
00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:30.039
And you know, I'm kind of getting into like the Sora videos of myself lately, you know.
00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:35.160
But basically, Sora Sora is like chat GPT is video content creation for anybody listening.
00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:42.599
And you can like upload a cameo, like it's basically it's a video of yourself, and then you just tell it to do things, like you're sitting at your desk typing, and it looks like a video of you.
00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:59.400
I mean, you could tell it's AI, yeah, but it also it's it's interesting because I've like tested these, like I'll put some of the AI ones on, and it's really interesting because I get a lot of engagement on the AI ones, not people saying, Oh my god, that's AI, but just like people stopping and looking, trying to figure out if it is AI.
00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:00.759
So I don't know.
00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:04.120
For my brand using AI, that's that's been an interesting journey.
00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:09.079
And I wonder in the future how that's gonna be with just therapists like marketing, that sort of thing.
00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:16.120
Like in as we incorporate AI more into like the therapy room, if that's gonna be a marketing strategy in the future, I don't know.
00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:18.680
Yeah, just interesting to think about.
00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:19.079
Yeah.
00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:29.079
Yeah, I I know I was on Psychology Today recently because I was looking into therapists who had uploaded videos to Psychology Today.
00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:41.240
And I don't know if you've seen this, but now in the Psychology Today feed, so if you search for a therapist in Providence, Rhode Island, which is where I live, right, you get the results.
00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:47.799
And then about halfway down the page, there's videos of therapists who've uploaded a video to their psychology today profile.
00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:53.960
So they're actually showing up now in the search results to encourage, I think, and probably just encourage people to upload videos.
00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:59.880
And I was scrolling through those videos just to get a sense of what these videos looked like.
00:20:59.960 --> 00:21:05.240
And I think the third or fourth one that I watched was like very, like very clearly an AI video.
00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:18.120
For me, it's like okay, like this guy clearly just like made this video and it's just like very obviously like his hands, you know, they'd have like the AI thing, and it's just like I don't know, it doesn't do anything for me.
00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:30.680
Um now I think if like for you, AI is part of your brand and your content and what you talk about, and like so I think it's okay that you're experimenting with AI to create content, and people might even expect that from you.
00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:38.759
And I think that would be cool for you to like use AI to create content, share it, talk about it, give people's reaction, like create a conversation about it.
00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:54.359
Like, I think that's that's an interesting way to think about it versus like I'm just gonna use this AI tool to create this like intro video of myself because you know I don't I don't want to record a video, or it's it's just easier to do that.
00:21:54.680 --> 00:21:56.359
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:21:56.599 --> 00:21:58.120
Yeah, it's an interesting topic.
00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:05.880
I'm so curious to see how it's gonna evolve because as you said, I've been into it for a long time and I'm kind of a real geek when it goes to and trying to figure out.
00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:17.400
I'm always actually trying to find shortcuts, and that's why I'm so obsessed with AI, I think, and and trying to figure out a way to get really good content creation because it's it's like soul sucking for a lot of therapists, you know, to be able to do that.
00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:27.000
And I think places like your newsletter, I downloaded it's really great newsletter, you know, offer a lot of really good strategies to help.
00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:31.079
Therapists move along with this without using AI.
00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:35.319
There's tips, tricks, that sort of thing in there to help therapists like get really easy content creation.
00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:36.599
I think that's amazing.
00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:38.200
Because it's the hardest part of it.
00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:43.960
I think you know, everybody just wants to be a therapist, but then you've got to worry about all this other stuff on top of it, you know.
00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:44.839
Definitely.
00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:48.759
Yeah, and that's something that I tell therapists all the time.
00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:54.680
I actually just had a call with a therapist this week who asked me, Do I need to be on Instagram?
00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:58.200
I I feel like my all of my colleagues are on Instagram.
00:22:58.279 --> 00:22:59.319
I'm not on Instagram.
00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:04.200
And I said, Well, why do you like why do you need to be on Instagram?
00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:05.000
Do you need clients?
00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:07.480
And she said, Well, no, like my practice is full.
00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:25.400
And I was like, Okay, well, if you don't need it for your business and it's not something that you particularly enjoy doing, you know, if you're not someone who likes to create content and you're on Instagram as someone who's consuming content on the platform, then no, I don't think you need to be on Instagram, right?
00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:32.120
So I think there's this pressure that a lot of therapists feel when it comes to creating content, being on social media.
00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:37.160
It's like, well, I just I feel like I need to because other people are.
00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:46.680
And so I just I guess that gives hopefully permission for people not to if they don't feel like they want to, if that makes sense.
00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:49.400
Yeah, I I I love that message.
00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:49.960
Definitely.
00:23:50.120 --> 00:23:53.400
You don't have to just like do what everybody else is doing to try to get clients.
00:23:53.640 --> 00:24:02.039
What are some other ways that people can content market without being on like social media that you recommend or help people with?
00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:03.000
Hmm.
00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:08.440
I mean, I I think this is a great way to kind of do content marketing, right?
00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:17.319
Is either host a podcast, partner with a company who you know is hosting a podcast like you're doing, or even be a guest on a podcast, right?
00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:20.200
Because correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this will go on YouTube, right?
00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:21.240
And it'll go on social media.
00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:28.519
And so this is a great way to kind of do content marketing in a sort of more like just it's like a low-key way, right?
00:24:28.599 --> 00:24:33.960
Like you can just come on, have a conversation, and then this like content is created from it, which is great.
00:24:34.120 --> 00:24:36.759
Um, but yeah, I mean, social media is just one way, right?
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:43.480
Like I'm a huge fan of email marketing, which is like a whole nother conversation to be had.
00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:58.359
Um, but I think, you know, what I'll say about email is that email is what I would describe as an owned audience, meaning you have a direct relationship with your email subscribers.
00:24:58.599 --> 00:25:04.359
Whereas if you build an audience on social media, I would describe that as a borrowed audience, right?
00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:10.759
Like you're at the mercy of an algorithm, you're building this audience on a third-party platform.
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:17.480
Um, you you know, you could have a huge TikTok following, and then TikTok could go away.
00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:17.960
Yeah.
00:25:18.120 --> 00:25:21.079
And so I'm always talking to therapists about building an email list.
00:25:21.240 --> 00:25:22.759
It's way more defensible.
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:30.359
And so as you're thinking about, you know, doing content marketing and building an audience, how are you getting people onto an email list?
00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:38.279
Are you offering what you know what we call a lead magnet, some kind of like downloadable content that people can give their email for?
00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:45.559
You know, maybe you're hosting a free webinar is another great content marketing tactic.
00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:48.359
And you know, people sign up for that webinar, give their email address.
00:25:48.519 --> 00:26:06.920
So I'm always thinking about you know, the content I'm creating, okay, the end goal is to get people to join my email list because then once they're on my email list, then I can continue to provide them value, going back to what we talked about in the beginning through a weekly newsletter that's helpful for them.
00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:19.160
And at some point, if I have a course that I'm offering or, you know, something, a product that I'm selling, now I have this audience that then I can, you know, offer that to.
00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:19.799
Yeah.
00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:20.279
Yeah.
00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:22.839
No, I I know that my email list is gold.
00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:28.279
I mean, it's, you know, I've built it for years, and it's just so important to to do that and have it.
00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:31.720
I have lots of Facebook groups, but it literally could go away tomorrow.
00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:36.279
I've heard people get their groups shut down for weird reasons, for no reason, really.
00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:42.359
So it's yeah, it's definitely scary to think about not having your own list somewhere.
00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:46.440
So a freebie or like a lead magnet, do you have any tips around that?
00:26:46.519 --> 00:26:48.039
Like how to because people ask me that a lot.
00:26:48.120 --> 00:26:52.039
It's like, well, I don't know what I don't know what to offer, or how do I even come up with that?
00:26:52.120 --> 00:26:55.799
Do you have any tips on how to think of a freebie to get people on your email list?
00:26:56.120 --> 00:27:02.039
Yeah, I mean, I I think that going back to you know, content marketing be being a value exchange.
00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:04.039
I feel like I've said value a hundred times.
00:27:04.200 --> 00:27:06.680
It's like it just needs to be valuable, it needs to be helpful, right?
00:27:06.759 --> 00:27:06.920
Yeah.
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:14.120
I think, yeah, if you're just putting something up that isn't helpful, people aren't gonna, you know, they're not gonna want it, right?
00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:33.400
But if you have like a private practice checklist, for example, and you are marketing to therapists or your audience as therapists who are starting private practice, that's a great example of a a lead magnet or what I would call gated content, meaning you have to give your email address in order to get access to it.
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:43.079
Um, so I think when I think about like a lead magnet, typically it can be like a one-page PDF, so a checklist, a cheat sheet, something like that.
00:27:43.319 --> 00:27:48.599
I think on my my newsletter website, I have like a marketing cheat sheet.
00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:51.480
So like that's one option.
00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:57.079
I've also seen people offer like ebooks as a kind of free, free download.
00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:09.079
If you do a webinar, you could just take the video recording and offer that as well as something that I've seen, or even just creating like a five, 10, 15-minute video on a particular topic.
00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:17.160
But I think something that is is helpful to your target audience, I think, is sort of where I would start.
00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:29.720
And if there's you know, a particular topic that you find resonates most with your audience, going back to those content pillars we had talked about, um, that's like a good place to focus.
00:28:30.120 --> 00:28:41.640
I would say so at Herd, for example, you know, we found that whenever we talked about tax write-offs or tax deductions, oh, yeah, it got a lot of engagement, right?
00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:45.400
Because everybody's a therapist who wouldn't want to save money on their taxes, right?
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:49.400
And so we wrote a guide to tax write-offs for therapists.
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:54.839
And if you search Google tax write-offs for therapists, it's the number one search result now that comes up.
00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:55.400
Wow.
00:28:55.640 --> 00:29:07.079
And now if you click on that guide, within the guide, kind of in the like in line, there's a there's a button where you can download a tax deduction cheat sheet for therapists, right?
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:14.359
So it's associated with the the blog posts or the you know the on-site content, and then it's a a free download.
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:15.240
Really smart.
00:29:15.799 --> 00:29:22.519
Has been you know downloaded a bunch of times and generated a lot of emails for the herd email list.
00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:23.640
That's amazing.
00:29:23.799 --> 00:29:25.079
Yeah, really cool.
00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:36.120
So so can we talk about therapy marketer and how you like decided to start that and and what you do and how you help therapists through that business?
00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:37.160
Yeah, absolutely.
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:41.640
So I mentioned that I worked for the Gottman Institute for eight and a half years.
00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:48.359
And when I left, I really wanted to help therapists with marketing.
00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:56.839
And I I couldn't help like enough people, like I couldn't help all the therapists that I wanted to help as a service business.
00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:06.200
And so I started that newsletter as a way to just kind of extend kind of my reach and share knowledge and you know, hopefully help more therapists.
00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:09.880
And so I I think I started it in 2020, 2021.
00:30:09.960 --> 00:30:17.480
So I've been writing it for about five years now, and it has like just over 3,000 therapists on the list.
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:26.599
And and yeah, so I I really share like a lot of it is you know, like very kind of distilled down takeaways for folks.
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:34.759
My my goal is like each newsletter, there should just be like one thing that people can take away and apply to their to their practice.
00:30:35.480 --> 00:30:48.200
Um, and so some of that is just like kind of general marketing and and branding, kind of like concepts that I distill down for therapists, but also it's just what I'm learning, like things that I'm reading, things that I'm seeing.
00:30:48.440 --> 00:30:53.559
And AI is something I've been talking about more recently, which isn't something that I talked about five years ago, right?
00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:56.920
Because it just wasn't wasn't really like a thing yet.
00:30:57.079 --> 00:31:04.440
Um, so so yeah, I'm also just kind of sharing what I'm learning and also sharing kind of like my point of view or perspective on it.
00:31:04.519 --> 00:31:07.960
And I think that that that's important when we think about content, right?
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:11.240
Is like what is my point of view?
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:12.200
What is my perspective?
00:31:12.279 --> 00:31:15.559
What am I adding to this topic or conversation?
00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:20.440
Otherwise, like someone could probably just search on Chat GPT for that answer, right?
00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:20.839
Right.
00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:25.720
You're not just like regurgitating information, you're actually putting like your unique spin on it.
00:31:25.880 --> 00:31:26.279
Yeah.
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:26.920
Mm-hmm.
00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:28.440
So interesting.
00:31:28.759 --> 00:31:35.160
Have you been talking much about you know, AI becoming a search engine and marketing?
00:31:35.319 --> 00:31:37.559
So you're showing up on Chat GPT.
00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:40.039
That's you know, really been a hot topic.
00:31:40.120 --> 00:31:45.880
People have been asking me about like the ask engine optimization versus you know, SEO and that sort of thing.
00:31:46.120 --> 00:31:48.599
Just wonder if you're in that realm at all.
00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:50.120
I am, yeah.
00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:58.039
This is one of the I laugh because I feel like what I'm starting to see on LinkedIn in particular is like SEO is dead.
00:31:58.440 --> 00:31:58.680
Yeah.
00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:00.039
I saw this post yesterday.
00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:01.400
It was like blogging is dead.
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:08.599
Like, I don't know about every time something new comes out, people always think like the old thing is you know is dead or doesn't exist.
00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:09.480
People love to say that.
00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:12.599
Um like what we know, yeah.
00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:13.400
No, exactly.
00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:15.799
It's it's like good engagement bait, I guess.
00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:24.440
But you know, what we know about like what I've heard is it's called GEO generative engine optimization or okay, like SEO for AI.
00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:28.920
It's the same kind of basic principles that apply to SEO.
00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:38.279
And so when you search on ChatGPT, right, like when you're using an AI tool, it's it's largely pulling results from Google and search engines.
00:32:38.759 --> 00:32:46.759
And so it's like the same kind of basic SEO principles will help you to show up in in AI search.
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:57.640
And so I would be somewhat wary of people who claim to be like AI search or you know, LLM like experts, just because it's like also new.
00:32:57.799 --> 00:32:58.120
Yeah.
00:32:58.279 --> 00:33:04.680
Um, then there's definitely an opportunity, right, for people to come in and help companies show up in AI searches.
00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:18.440
But the the one thing that I have seen about AI search versus Google search is that historically Google really values backlinks, so like links to your website, right?
00:33:18.599 --> 00:33:27.079
So if there's a lot of websites that link to your website, especially if those other websites are what Google would consider high authority.
00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:30.120
So they get a lot of traffic, they have content.
00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:36.039
If those websites link to your website, Google would consider your website high authority.
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:40.440
And so that's why you kind of backlinking is kind of an SEO strategy, right?
00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:42.359
Like getting other websites to link to your website.
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:50.440
What I've heard with AI search is it's less about backlinking and more just about your name or your brand being mentioned.
00:33:50.680 --> 00:34:03.160
Um, and so as if you're like being mentioned on other websites or people are talking about you or your brand, or you're appearing on podcasts, or maybe you're guest blogging, or you're you're sort of like your name is showing up.
00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:06.120
It's kind of more about frequency, if that makes sense.
00:34:06.680 --> 00:34:16.279
Um and so like the actual link itself isn't as important, it's more about the mention because AI is just like searching the internet essentially for mentions of you and and your brand.
00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:19.239
So that's like one thing that I've heard as a difference.
00:34:19.639 --> 00:34:22.199
So take that for what it is.
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:37.000
Um but I think the the takeaway for me, at least at this point, is like creating content for your website that you know is shows expertise, authority, and trustworthiness, that EAT that you see in SEO.
00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:45.559
Yeah, like if you're doing that and you're showing up on Google search, like the likelihood that you're gonna show up in AI search is is pretty good.
00:34:46.439 --> 00:34:47.239
That's great.
00:34:47.399 --> 00:34:48.359
Those are great tips.
00:34:48.519 --> 00:34:49.239
Oh my goodness.
00:34:49.479 --> 00:34:50.839
Yeah, I mean, who knows where it's gonna be.
00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:51.639
Something else.
00:34:51.959 --> 00:34:52.519
Yeah, okay.
00:34:52.839 --> 00:34:53.559
Yeah, no, totally.
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:54.279
And it's always changing.
00:34:54.359 --> 00:35:13.079
And something else I would just add, and we we saw this at Heard over the last like year or so, is that you know, I mentioned if you search tax deductions or tax write-offs for therapists, historically, what you get on what you get back, right, is like a list of links.
00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:13.399
Yeah.
00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:19.000
And so you click the first link or the second link and you'd go to the website and you'd read the the content.
00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:25.959
Now, what a lot of people do is they search tax write-offs for therapists or tax deductions for therapists.
00:35:26.199 --> 00:35:31.719
And instead of clicking through to the link in the search result, they just read the AI summary.
00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:36.519
So that's what shows up now under the at the top of the search result.
00:35:36.919 --> 00:35:40.919
So we're seeing click-through rate go down because of that.
00:35:41.879 --> 00:35:46.759
Now that AI summary is pulling from sources, right?
00:35:46.919 --> 00:35:53.799
So, you know, people are still like seeing, could be seeing your name or your brand mention, but that's something that's it's making it more difficult.
00:35:54.039 --> 00:36:01.079
And that's one sort of reason why I think people now are saying that SEO, you know, isn't as effective.
00:36:01.399 --> 00:36:11.799
But I I don't know, I'm not I'm not convinced that it doesn't I don't think that it means that you know SEO is dead or it's not something that you should be investing in, but still.
00:36:12.359 --> 00:36:12.839
Definitely.
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:17.079
I mean, I it couldn't hurt to put yourself all over the place with backlinks and that sort of thing.
00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:19.319
I mean, that couldn't be a bad strategy, I don't think.
00:36:19.479 --> 00:36:20.039
Yeah.
00:36:20.279 --> 00:36:20.599
Yeah.
00:36:20.759 --> 00:36:26.919
And then it would feed the AI too, the generative search, too, if you're like showing up all over the place that way, too.
00:36:27.879 --> 00:36:29.079
Very interesting.
00:36:29.479 --> 00:36:30.839
So thank you.
00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:37.319
So many good tips and strategies and just like helping people get from a starting point because I think it it really is.
00:36:37.399 --> 00:36:40.279
And I'm sure you've seen it over your career just for therapists.
00:36:40.359 --> 00:36:42.439
It's just this is such a hard topic for therapists.
00:36:42.519 --> 00:36:43.799
Like, how do I market myself?
00:36:44.119 --> 00:36:47.239
So, how how do you help therapists market themselves?
00:36:47.399 --> 00:36:58.599
Like, what do you we had the therapy marketer, the wonderful newsletter, and that sort of thing, but what do you do like strategy-wise, or how do you work with therapists just for somebody that's listening and might want to look you up and talk to you?
00:36:58.919 --> 00:36:59.479
Yeah, absolutely.
00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:02.439
So I offer marketing consulting calls.
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:05.239
So these are just 60-minute, you know, conversations.
00:37:05.399 --> 00:37:17.239
If if you're listening and you're like, wow, this sounds really interesting, or I have a particular question, or there's something that I've been like trying to figure out and I'm it's just not working, I'd I'd love to jump on a call.
00:37:17.399 --> 00:37:20.519
And that's like the best way to just pick my brain.
00:37:20.759 --> 00:37:37.399
And then also I do kind of longer-term engagements as well, you know, say where I'll work with therapists kind of on an ongoing basis and we meet once a month or twice a month, and we kind of talk about their practice and what's going on, and I'll give them, you know, kind of a roadmap to follow.
00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:38.439
That's awesome.
00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:40.599
Yeah, that sounds really helpful.
00:37:40.839 --> 00:37:50.119
And is it do you mainly like focus on like therapists that are just like focus on their private practice, or do you help with other like side income, side hustles, that sort of thing?
00:37:50.199 --> 00:37:56.839
Like somebody like me, maybe that's got, you know, clients, but also maybe some other income streams and trying to market that way.
00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:58.279
Do you help with that as well?
00:37:58.599 --> 00:37:59.559
Yeah, definitely.
00:37:59.879 --> 00:38:06.839
I would say, you know, it's therapists who are kind of just getting started and they're just trying to figure out how do I, how do I market myself?
00:38:06.919 --> 00:38:13.319
Sort of the what are sort of the basic kind of marketing foundations that I need to set up.
00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:16.519
Who is my ideal client trying to, you know, figure that out, right?
00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:17.879
What is my niche?
00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:41.879
And then yes, I also work with therapists who, you know, maybe they're full in their private practice and they're interested in exploring other income streams, for example, or they're expanding into a group practice, or maybe they want to cut down on their caseload a little bit so they can do kind of other stuff, or maybe they're a practice that's launching kind of a new offering for their you know business.
00:38:42.039 --> 00:38:46.279
I work with uh a group practice who's now offering leadership consulting.
00:38:46.359 --> 00:38:51.079
And so we've talked about okay, how do we get that off the ground and come up with a marketing plan for that?
00:38:51.319 --> 00:39:01.799
Because when you introduce a new service, right, the way that you market that service might be different than kind of what you're used to doing just to get therapy clients.
00:39:02.599 --> 00:39:10.279
Definitely, definitely, but it's a different like genre altogether, like leadership versus like how do I get another client in the door, kind of thing.
00:39:10.359 --> 00:39:11.799
Yeah, that's so cool.
00:39:11.959 --> 00:39:13.319
So, where do people find you?
00:39:13.399 --> 00:39:16.679
What's the websites or the links where they go to find you?
00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:22.039
So, my my personal website is just my name, Michael Fulweiler.com.
00:39:22.439 --> 00:39:29.159
My newsletter is therapymarketer.co, just because therapymarketer.com was taken, unfortunately.
00:39:29.319 --> 00:39:33.079
So if you own that, want to sell it to me, uh yeah.
00:39:33.159 --> 00:39:37.559
If you just Google Therapy Marketer as well, hopefully my SEO is good enough that it will show up.
00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:42.679
But yeah, and in terms of social media, I find myself more active these days on LinkedIn.
00:39:42.839 --> 00:39:52.759
You know, going back to like social media platforms changing, I used to be more active on Twitter and just Twitter has changed a lot in the last you know few years.
00:39:52.919 --> 00:40:01.879
And I I've noticed like the community that I kind of was engaging with on Twitter is now more on LinkedIn, and so I find myself more on LinkedIn these days.
00:40:01.959 --> 00:40:06.359
So I think if you're you know looking to connect on social media, I would connect with me there.
00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:08.199
Yeah, I definitely follow you over there.
00:40:08.279 --> 00:40:10.839
And I love your posts, they're very interesting and informed.
00:40:10.919 --> 00:40:11.959
They're always interesting.
00:40:12.119 --> 00:40:12.679
Yeah.
00:40:12.919 --> 00:40:15.079
I'm like, I'm like, what's he talking about today?
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:16.039
Yeah.
00:40:16.279 --> 00:40:18.119
Well, thanks so much for taking the time today.
00:40:18.199 --> 00:40:19.000
This is super helpful.
00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:24.759
I think it's gonna help a lot of people just kind of get over that hump and figure out how to start marketing their practice better.
00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:33.479
Between sessions is brought to you by Berries because clinicians deserve support too.
00:40:33.719 --> 00:40:41.079
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