S4 E4: From Poverty to Physician: Dr. Betty-Ann Bernard on Women in Medicine, Leadership, & Purpose

Intro
Welcome to Behaviorally Speaking: Leadership for Change-Makers—where leadership is grounded in behavior, guided by dignity, and designed for change. I'm your host, Dr. Esther Bubb. Let's dive into today's episode.
Interview
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Dr. Esther Bubb: So, Betty, and thank you so, so much for being on the show with me today. I'm just so happy and excited, you know, just because we grew up together, we're friends, and then obviously professionals, even though different fields, but there's some overlap, so I'm really looking forward to what I'm going to learn from you today. How are you doing today?
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Very good. Thank you for having me.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Wonderful.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I hope you can learn something from me. I mean, I don't think there's anything… it's not a teaching class, so we'll see how it goes. I'm sure I'll learn from you, too.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, absolutely, we'll definitely see how it goes. So let's start, Betty, and we're talking about, like, your roots, your identity, and your early aspirations growing up. So, we've known each other, Betty, since our school days in Grenada, and so when you reflect on your early years, what experiences and people
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Dr. Esther Bubb: In your opinion, right, first shaped your desire and your decision to become a doctor, and what helped you believe that the path was possible?
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Back to the early days.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: That's gonna happen.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: happy memories attached to that, and then there are some not-so-happy memories, because when I remember some of the conditions that I grew up in.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Though, I do see, I usually do see.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I'm grateful, right? Yeah. I'm grateful that I was born into this family, I'm grateful that I grew up the way I grew up.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Honestly, looking at other people, looking at their situation, comparing, and…
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I usually say, you know what, I'm glad how I am now, and I think the way I grew up.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: helped shape me, so I'm glad I grew up how I grew up, and not the other way, because I don't think I would have been the same person.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I'm not sure if much people know, I come from a very poor family.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I don't get the impression that they think so, because people have made a comment.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And I have to be like, hello, do you know me? You know where I grew up?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: But my mother had a lot to do with the
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Betty Ann bernard -John: in terms of education, from early on, I realized
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I do not want to be in the same position as an adult, as I grew up, in terms of our financial situation, even the place where we grew up. I mean, I grew up in a, how you call them? The Janet House?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Yeah. It was a very small house.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: as far as I remember, it was a building with 4 rooms, basically.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: first room you enter, that's where we would usually call the sitting room.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I had one little couch or chair. Then, opposite that room, you had a small room where my grandma used to stay. Okay. You go to the other section, the area we use as a kitchen, but I remember my aunt used to sleep in that area on the floor. Okay. And then you had another bed.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: another room where my mom, my dad, and myself used to stay. I mean, the conditions were deplorable, there are holes, I used to sleep on the floor, there were holes right there. And from earlier, I said, I don't want to be growing up in that.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So, my mom used to always push the education.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Mmm.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So we were always ready for school, we had all that we needed. She used to literally… when she gets home, you have to have all your homework done by the time she gets home.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: She has to pick us up in our work, so she knew we had spelling the next day, you had to be able to spell. You get your lips if you spell one word wrong, and you go back in the corner, revise all of them, and come back.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: I'm coming.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I know all of them.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right?
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Betty Ann bernard -John: She used to look over our homework, make us make corrections, and mind you, my mom didn't go secondary school, but she.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Very intelligent.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So, I always had that from preparing me go all the way up to secondary school. She always used to push education.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I don't remember when exactly I decided to become a doctor, but I know she always said from early… Yeah. …to say, I want to be a doctor. The earliest I remember wanting… knowing that I intentionally wanted to be a doctor, there was a time I went to visit the family doctor.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: My early teens.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And it was a male doctor, Dr. Klein, got her.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah. Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And I remember he had to stom my chest. Yeah. And I had to open my shirt. Now, during the preteen times, you know, you're a bit shy, and there.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: This month.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And telling me to open my shirt, although my mom was there.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: But I was very nervous, and I remember saying to myself afterwards.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: If I'm feeling so scared.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: a little bit timid with a male doctor, maybe there need to be more female doctors, because back in those times, I don't remember ever hearing of any female doctor. Most of the.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Well, guys, Dr. Gabriel.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Dr. Klein, Dr. Kelly's is just guys.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So then and there, I said, you know what, I think I'm gonna be a doctor. I remember saying, I want to be an OBGYN. Definitely, a female doctor for females.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: as far as I remember. In terms of the reality of it happening.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: It was kinda… I had the dream, but I was never 100% sure I would get to do it, because one…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: My mom is working in a nutbank station.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: fisherman.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And I came from a poor family with no links. Back in the day, if you had a little lynx, probably you could get through with something. Yeah. Lo and behold, when I was in secondary school, almost finishing, I have an uncle who used to work in agriculture.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I've never forgotten Uncle Peter.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Nice.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I remember he come… I think he passed by, and he told my mom, the government is giving scholarships to go to Cuba. That's when they first reopened the Cuba Scholarship Program.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: 9 to 7.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And I remember him saying,
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I go bring a form for you, make sure she fills up, and she could get a chance to go. And I remember after I left, I said to myself, well, what about him? He seems so excited.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: I don't.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I don't have no links, my mother don't have no links. Only people who have links could get through. So, honestly, I never thought about it.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Mmm.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: The time passed.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And then the deadline went.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Remember?
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Betty Ann bernard -John: A day he passed in on the road, and he called, oh, they bring in the farm? And mommy said, no!
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Betty Ann bernard -John: He said no word. He intentionally came back, he bought the.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Let me pull it up.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: to me.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And he brought it in.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Now, that happened, and I didn't even think it was a possibility still. I said, okay, doesn't hurt to fill up the farm. And then… well, I was in Tamsici at the time.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: We had finished, and then they had a teacher's program going on, because.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: After school, I think most people applied to the banks, and I also.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: for teaching. Yeah. That's what it used to be mostly.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Exactly.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So, my mind, I would either be a banker in Grenville.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Well, it's working.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Cool.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I would be teaching. At that time, too, Ms. Britton, I don't know if you remember.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: She was principal of St. Rose, Mount Rose, the one in Mount Trose.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yep.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And I remember she said, I remember she became principal of that school, so I know she had like me.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: She and Mommy used to talk, so I figured, you know what, I might get a job up there anyways.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So, after time CC, during the summer program, they had some teaching program, introduction to teaching.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I was doing.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes. That's cool.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And I remember one day walking, it was a Friday, walking through college, and all who I meet was like, can you name me on the radio? You need to contact the ministry. I'm like, what? What's going on here?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: That probably was a teaching job, maybe.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So, when several people told me that, I was like, okay.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Let me call who. They didn't hire me, I had to go and find a payphone.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I think I went in the office and asked for a phone call, and I called that. He was home, and he was like, yes, I don't know how to meet you. It came out on the radio, you get through the scholarship, and you have to bring in all the paperwork today. Deadline was the same day.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: That's true.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Well, I don't have no paperwork, because I didn't do anything.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right?
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Betty Ann bernard -John: The good thing is, I think Mommy had done a passport for us already. Okay. Although we don't want money to travel, I don't know.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Dad.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And…
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Betty Ann bernard -John: But certificate, all these things are in Grenville. I'm in St. George's, yes, I'm close to the Ministry, but, I mean.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Yes. So, I think I ended up walking up to the ministry and finding out what would I do, because I just got a message, and the lady had me…
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Betty Ann bernard -John: call home, get my father to look for my passport, and believe me, them times their mommy didn't know where everything is. I didn't even know if Daddy knew where it was. He was so mommy at work. He found the passport number, he gave it to me, I gave it to the lady, and she told me on Monday morning, first thing, bring in all the paperwork.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And that's how I ended up with myself.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: to go to Cuba.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Oh boy.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: I love that story, Bethianne.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: It is, yes. A lot of people chipped in.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: we get to Cuba.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Mrs. Linda Johnson, that was Dr. Johnson's wife at the time.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: She was a family friend also, so she told mommy to have me come check her one day. I went to her house, she put my stick down, she told me what Cuba is different from Grenada. She even… I didn't even know Cuba had cold temperature. She told me I.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Sorry.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: to get jackets and stuff to go with. She actually gave me 3 jackets to go with.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: my tree jackets for Cuba. And, she gave me a little rundown of what to expect.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And…
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I left for Cuba, I got the call, that was the ending of August, September, and I left for Cuba October that year, first time I ever traveled. Yeah. First time ever leaving home, leaving all my friends. Oh, you were at the airport? Did you? Yeah.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yes, yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I just cried, and then I left.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yep. Yep.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Yeah, I remember that.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So… That's the trip down memory lane.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, that's… that's, your story, Bettian, has so much…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: of courage, like, determination, like, strength, you know, like, the family, right? That support around you?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: And so I think you sharing that story is so great, because sometimes all we can see is who we see now, but sometimes, you know, knowing the story and what people went through, like, it's encouraging to others, right? Like, I can do that too, you know? So, so I really
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Dr. Esther Bubb: I took a lot. Yeah, yeah. I took a lot away from that, that, Tetian, and I'm sure our listeners would too, so I really appreciate you sharing that. It's very valuable.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: So, speaking of value, Bethian, in all of that, right, but just in your life in general, what personal values from growing up? I mean, I think I could pull a lot out of that, but I'm gonna let you answer, right? What personal values from growing up in Grenada continue to guide your work as a physician and a leader today?
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Oh, I think… All the personal values, you know.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay, yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Goodness, right?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yes, yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Because, I mean, you have personal growth, wanting.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: this situation.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: It's something I always stood by, personal growth, even to this day, when you.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: boat.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: teens being so bad, and people turning out to be so bad, and people like, oh, as parents, I always ask.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: If I could look at my situation, because from early.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: My family, they were poor. All the females on my mother's side.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And if I think back, at least one of my…
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I know of one of my father's family relatives. All of them had teenage pregnancy.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: All of them was pregnant before 20, all of them, and most of them, especially on my mom's side, remain in the same situation. And from early, I always said.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I am not gonna be a statistics.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: to get pregnant at teenage, and I stood by that.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I didn't have a boyfriend.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I intentionally not had any boyfriends.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, true.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: my secondary education. Even when I got to Cuba, it was… you could almost say I had a boyfriend when I had 20 years, because I had always put it in my head. School, school, school, no boys to get caught.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: I like that. Okay.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: The personal go-off.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Get to me!
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Betty Ann bernard -John: higher education.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: moving forward.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Perseverance.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Perseverance, because… The limited financial resources you have.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: They're seeing other people with their things.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: The hardship of leaving to go to Cuba, a whole new.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Yeah. The challenges I met there, the language barrier, I mean, I knew a little bit of Spanish before I.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Remember our Spanish days in…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Convent. Yes, convent, yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: You know, at one point, I was planning to drop Spanish.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And I can't remember if it was Ms. Francis or whoever told me, no, don't drop it.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: stay with it, because I was going to drop it and do social studies, and I thought, I don't like it, I don't want to do it, and she said, no. She said, if you really want to do social studies, you could do it on the side, and then she forced me to do the extra subject, I remember that. I didn't like it at first, but believe me, it felt great when I got.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Yeah, so the little Spanish did help a lot.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And then, it's a new culture, new people, you're away from home, you're missing your family, communications was not like then, so it took a lot.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: But perseverance to get what you need?
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: All the values, the core values you learn as a family. My family was always close-knit, my father is always about family, gatherings, and all of that. Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I learned about fairness.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Mmm.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: You know where you've been, so where.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: the others…
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And the empathy that goes with it. You put yourself… I'm able to put myself in people who are less fortunate.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Yeah. To try and understand where they come from.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And use that to better help them. At least these are just a few.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: mention.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: But believe in me, everything…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: together, all the core values that I know. Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Filter into my profession and my life every day.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: I like that you talked about perseverance, and then I want to segue into women in medicine and breaking barriers, because to me, that whole thing encapsulates what you talked about, right? Because you talked about that thought in your head from a young girl, like, I want to see people like me in medicine. I want females like me to be comfortable, right? And I think that has a lot to do with perseverance, but I also think of it, and like, we always say to people.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: whatever it is you want to be, say it, speak it, you know, believe it. And then at some point, right, you know, it'll just manifest itself. So, saying all of that, you had this early idea from early on, didn't really believe, you know, because of financial situation, it would happen, right? But you're stuck in there. So, as a woman pursuing medicine today, Bethian, what barriers or biases do you encounter, did you encounter, and how do you navigate them?
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I think at the… at the time that I entered medicine, Drew, around that time, is when you found that a lot of… there was a shift in society norms.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Where…
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Betty Ann bernard -John: around that time, a lot of the roles that you usually use to grow up, like I said, when I was a child, was mostly rules.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Around that time, there were more females integrating into… there was this change that more females were doing, so I never really had any stigma or barrier in terms of being a female doctor. I never had to encounter it.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Where I studied.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Cuba, they encourage everybody, everybody has free tertiary education, so almost every Cuban you meet, believe you me, they have completed university and they have a degree. And there were a lot of females, there were a lot of male equal.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So, I can't say that I had any barrier. If I have to say any barrier or challenge I had to come up with, it had nothing to do with gender.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: when I got back to Grenada, when we got back to Grenada, remember back then, we just started the whole.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: training program. So, most of the people who were at the hospital were people who would have been trained abroad, or training SGU.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: But aside stigma with a tendency to the person who are in charge of the doctors and stuff, tending to more favor, or so it seemed to us at the time, yes, experience is your teacher, that it most favored the SU students.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And how did we overcome that? We as the Cuban students, we knew, we realized what was happening, but we were able to put what we learned and our practice.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Hills eventually showed them that, hey, listen.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: the Cuban-trained doctors are doing so well, especially in the practical part, and then eventually we overcome… we overcame that stigma. In addition to they were taking in more of us, because more of us were going and coming back, and you have your Grenadian-trained professionals. So a lot of the interns that came back were mostly Grenadian, mostly.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: that kind of overcame that stigma, but other than that, I've never really had any barrier or anything that I had to say, like, oh, there's a stigma that, oh, you're a female doctor, you better stay in your lane. Never really.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay, okay. Well, I'm happy to hear that, but I'm also able to hear that you… the Cuban-trained doctors were able to come together, right, and demonstrate their skills. I really like that. Yes, yes, yes. Wonderful. And obviously, you're a great doctor, so thank you for all you do.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yep.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: You're very welcome. So, on that note, still sticking with, like, women, what advice would you give to young women in Grenada and across the Caribbean, Bettian, or anyone actually listening to this, who aspire to careers in medicine or other traditionally challenging fields? You know, when I spoke with my brother, we talked about civil engineering, like, it's just mostly male, you know, so even fields like that. So, whether it's medicine, whatever it is, what advice do you have for them?
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Any young person I meet, my advice thing, and then again, it goes back to my core values. If I can't do it, you can do it.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: If you're.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: want it, then you want to put in the work. Once you put in the work, you would reap the benefit, and you can be anything you choose to be. There's nothing about, oh, it's a male job anymore, and you see that more and more every day.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Most times, whatever you put your mind to do, it's gonna entail hard work. Medicine is hard work. You have to study a lot, you have to read the books. I mean, most times you hear about university life, and you hear about the partying part most of the time. You know, you hear about all those.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: IT's and the.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: I mean…
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I did have parts of that also, but…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Balance the book.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Make sure that you put your foot… and once you're dedicated, you're motivating, and that's what you really want, you can achieve it, especially in this day and age where everything is at your fingertips.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: There's nothing to stop you. For people who want to study medicine, who are Grenadians.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: because of the way the health system is now in Grenada.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: and you have so much limited resources, you wouldn't be pushed, you wouldn't get to be at your optimal in this day and age, if you understand what I'm saying.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, I…
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So I would say to them, it doesn't mean that you don't study medicine.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Go ahead, study your medicine, but be prepared that you may want to work outside if you are.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: enjoy the full benefit of everything, and not necessarily remain in Grenada.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay, okay.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes. Those are great words of wisdom, you know, keeping an open mind, right? Keeping an open mind, yes, yes. So, let's go a little bit behind the diagnosis, Bethian, right? So, what moments in your work have taught you the importance of listening? Like.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: just beyond their surface. Like, for example, someone comes in with a curt, a bruise on the face, right? You know, like, what are you hearing? What are they not saying, right? Or, what should I really be listening for? What has your experience taught you about that importance, right, of listening beyond the surface to understand the human story behind what is presented?
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Betty Ann bernard -John: This… The ability to listen beyond, it comes with time.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: It definitely comes with time.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I think… to an extent, my roots, where I grew up, how I grew up.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: have a part to play in my personal experience with listening beyond.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And there are a lot of stigmas that tend to interfere also and cause you not to listen
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Initially beyond.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Yes. There are a few workshops I recently did that shows that I still do have a little bias sometimes, and I need to work on that. Okay. But, throughout my medical career, there are a lot of times when, I must say, I'm happy that I can pick it up now.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: to do that, better known than when I first started.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: The first time, when you asked that question, and I think back.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: First time there's an incident, the first time that I intentionally realized.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: some things are not exactly what they are. I mean, probably I always knew, but as a young house officer, when I newly started in Guineyard.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Yeah. You know, there were a lot more teenagers coming in with incomplete miscarriages, incomplete abortions.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And I remember… sometimes you hear…
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Like, it's not just me, other staff members would be like, oh god, another young girl I came, they can't learn
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Betty Ann bernard -John: The legs closed and whatnot.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And… You realize I'm a talker, so when I'm…
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: admissions.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I try to make people feel comfortable, so I might just go down to their level A. How are you doing? What going on? Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So, what happened? And I remember a time we were chatting, and this young girl opened up, and she was like.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I didn't intentionally get pregnant, you know. You don't understand. Her grandmother was telling her that she should go out there with this older guy, because he helps them financially.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So, because he had been financially, she was encouraging the relationship, she got pregnant. That particular one didn't throw her child, as most people, when they see teenagers coming, they think.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Good morning.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: determination. She didn't intentionally, she just happened to miscarriage, whether it was a blessing or a curse.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And she came in, and there she is, all fearful, thinking about all that's going on. Everybody's judging, and I realized…
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Sometimes you just have to dig deeper.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So that's just one, but there are many. There are people who… a young girl who came in for symptoms that didn't really match.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And when I questioned further, I realized it's just a simple thing that she was home depressed, she had fallen out of school at 13, and she was just home. Apparently, she, around the time she came in, she had applied
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Betty Ann bernard -John: to Nulo to see if she could get into the hair thingy.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Hmm.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: they didn't respond to her, so she was just there, and I realized she was starting to get depressed. Yeah. And then sometimes she tried to see what she could do to help with them.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Just recently, a lady came in with anxiety symptoms. She didn't know, she said she having chest pain, and she came in.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And when I asked, and I realized it was anxiety, I told her, and I'm like.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So what do you think causing me to get a chest pain? When exactly? And from there, I realized.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: She and her husband was having some… well, they have been having issues, it started escalating, and like I told her, I guess with… I said to her, well, I guess…
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Betty Ann bernard -John: With everything you're hearing about how many women so far has died.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: from gender-based violence, I said to her, I guess, probably a thing in your head, and you're probably scared now, even.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: That he might end up to that, because she claimed he never hit her.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I don't know how true that is, I didn't.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: fully believe it, but I said all of that is what is triggering you. I can't tell you what to make, what decisions you need to make, because I even suggested Thompson, but she was already doing that. Okay. After when she told me that, I was like, well, you're working, because if you're doing Comsten, and you're all the same book. But I didn't say that out loud.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right, right.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: okay, you already started, but you have to make a decision if you want to continue. And you know, you try to guide them and help them.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: As best as you can. Once you pick up.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Depart. Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Yeah. Listen.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you sharing that, Bethian. It's, you know, that caring, right, that compassion, that for me, like, just seeing everybody as a human, you know what I mean?
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Try because I would like the seat.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: We would like the same.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: to the people that I care about.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yes, and not assuming and judging, right? Just, like, tabula rasa. Just a clean slate. This is a new patient. I've never met this person before, right?
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I'm not saying I don't still do it, whether I do it internally, most
347
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I would do it externally, but I… it's something I've realized from research.
348
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And I still have a lot of work that.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: you try not to judge at all, at all, at all.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So, eventually.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Probably I'll get there.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: No, but you made a good point. We all do it, but I think the most important point you made, Bettian, is that reflection. Like, you're constantly reflecting, right? So, like, you're like, alright, I'm identifying, I'm doing this, I'm having this thought, you know, what can I change? So, we're all… it's all of us, Betien, but, like, I think the fact that you're even saying it.
357
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Dr. Esther Bubb: is huge, you know what I mean? Like, you're actively talking about, you know, how you learned and how your experience has shaped you.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: So, in addition to that, Betsy, and, like, in your work, even in my work too, right, there are so many stories. People are going through, like, trauma, traumatic experiences, things like that, and so we often carry their stories with us, good, bad, or indifferent, right? So, how have difficult cases, Betsy, and shaped your views on, like, humility?
359
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Dr. Esther Bubb: uncertainty, like, lifelong learning, and how do you personally process those experiences while continuing to serve others? And I'm thinking so much more… so much, Betty, and in terms of, that it doesn't start to impact you. Like, you're not taking it on, you know?
360
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I mean, the question came up.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And it's not the first time I'm asked.
362
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Yeah. And I don't know if I have a really good answer about that. It's not that…
363
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I'm not seeing any physical impact, per se. Okay.
364
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Betty Ann bernard -John: But… Do I deal with it?
365
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Mmm.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: For example.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: You know, I work in OBGYN for a lot of years, and that's where I had most of my impact. Now, it's not as…
368
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Betty Ann bernard -John: terrible, the difficult cases where I am now as it was then. So, you would have, for example.
369
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Betty Ann bernard -John: My first maternal death.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
371
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Betty Ann bernard -John: The first time a mother died, because it's not often.
372
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And…
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Betty Ann bernard -John: It was all of a sudden, it was on call, they call you about the patient, she was there behaving right. Actually, it turned out that she had a bleed.
375
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Betty Ann bernard -John: She died. I was on call tonight.
376
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I called out my consultant, we dealt with the issue, and after that, I was expected to continue the rest of the shift.
377
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Hmm…
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Betty Ann bernard -John: So… That happened, it's like, you put this aside, that one patient now, next patient, on to the next.
379
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Betty Ann bernard -John: when I had…
380
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Betty Ann bernard -John: people giving birth. People give birth to stillbirth, people give birth during the late process, baby die. You have those who you know they come in, the baby's already dead, you have to deal with that, tell them the diagnosis, figure out how you go about it. Even…
381
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Betty Ann bernard -John: On the other side, in the gyne ward, where you have patients coming in.
382
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
383
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Betty Ann bernard -John: With cancer, all those things.
384
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
385
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Betty Ann bernard -John: And… I mean, it has always been… You deliver a dead baby.
386
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Betty Ann bernard -John: in half times, I go, like, especially if it happened during the process, so you had a labor, and the
387
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Betty Ann bernard -John: make it… And you'll have to explain to the mother.
388
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Betty Ann bernard -John: You do it, you do what you have to do, you go. There are times I went to the bathroom, I cried, because you try not to cry in front of the patient.
389
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Little T are gonna come down.
391
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Betty Ann bernard -John: You go, you go to the bathroom, you cry about it, and then you go back to the living room and you continue your job.
392
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah. Yeah.
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Betty Ann bernard -John: Because that's what's expected of you.
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Mmm.
395
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Betty Ann bernard -John: what? I think after a while.
396
00:29:10.210 --> 00:29:12.590
Betty Ann bernard -John: I became a little bit… should I say dumb?
397
00:29:12.870 --> 00:29:14.820
Dr. Esther Bubb: Oh, yeah, yeah, it happens.
398
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Betty Ann bernard -John: It just became, like, routine.
399
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
400
00:29:16.800 --> 00:29:21.550
Betty Ann bernard -John: I think you know about this case. My sister.
401
00:29:21.550 --> 00:29:22.720
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yes.
402
00:29:23.040 --> 00:29:24.670
Betty Ann bernard -John: Who had a stillbirth.
403
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
404
00:29:25.650 --> 00:29:30.100
Betty Ann bernard -John: She came in, she delivered. At the time she came in, we didn't know the baby was dead.
405
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Cheers.
406
00:29:30.760 --> 00:29:36.779
Betty Ann bernard -John: During the delivery process, I remembered I, like, you know, she came in all of a sudden, everything happened. When she came.
407
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
408
00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:43.410
Betty Ann bernard -John: fully dilated, brought her across, started a process, and then I remember saying, guys, we didn't do a fetal heart.
409
00:29:43.700 --> 00:29:51.169
Betty Ann bernard -John: Granted, I think the nurse who brought her from Princessary, she was transferred, knew there was not a fetal heart, but didn't say anything.
410
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Hmm.
411
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Betty Ann bernard -John: What I thought strange was, in reflection, usually when Princess Alice comes with a patient to transfer, they give us the patient, we take over, and then they leave.
412
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
413
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Betty Ann bernard -John: That particular nurse, I mean, she's a friend of ours, so I guess when she stayed at the time, I didn't think it was anything, but in reflection.
414
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
415
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Betty Ann bernard -John: She stayed for the delivery, and I thought it odd.
416
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Mmm.
417
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Betty Ann bernard -John: is afterwards, when I asked, hey, we didn't check a fetal heart, can we document a fetal heart? And my coworker went, and he was
418
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Betty Ann bernard -John: anything, and I'm between my sisters, like, trying to do this delivery and.
419
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
420
00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:32.670
Betty Ann bernard -John: And my co-worker is looking at me, and like…
421
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Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
422
00:30:35.020 --> 00:30:38.480
Betty Ann bernard -John: And then and there, I knew we were gonna get a dead baby.
423
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:38.880
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
424
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:40.400
Betty Ann bernard -John: I couldn't tell her that.
425
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:41.210
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
426
00:30:41.210 --> 00:30:42.040
Betty Ann bernard -John: time.
427
00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:42.870
Dr. Esther Bubb: You're right.
428
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Betty Ann bernard -John: I look at the nurse, and the nurse is whispering to another nurse that she think there was a decreased fetal heart, or something to do with the fetal heart.
429
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:52.680
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
430
00:30:53.600 --> 00:30:58.139
Betty Ann bernard -John: So here I am now, and that was in the peak of COVID, when COVID was just.
431
00:30:58.140 --> 00:30:58.900
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
432
00:30:58.900 --> 00:31:07.029
Betty Ann bernard -John: the day before they shut down the hospital, and I remember the baby born, And the baby didn't cry.
433
00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:07.610
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
434
00:31:07.610 --> 00:31:11.769
Betty Ann bernard -John: I had to tell my sister no. The baby's dead, her husband was there with her.
435
00:31:11.970 --> 00:31:12.360
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
436
00:31:12.360 --> 00:31:16.189
Betty Ann bernard -John: From there, I had to go call my parents.
437
00:31:16.190 --> 00:31:17.580
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
438
00:31:18.040 --> 00:31:22.070
Betty Ann bernard -John: And… afterwards… Continue like normal?
439
00:31:22.070 --> 00:31:23.170
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
440
00:31:23.170 --> 00:31:26.529
Betty Ann bernard -John: She had complications afterwards, I had to deal with all of that.
441
00:31:26.530 --> 00:31:28.120
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
442
00:31:28.120 --> 00:31:32.699
Betty Ann bernard -John: And then, usually post-call, you go home, 8 o'clock in the morning.
443
00:31:32.840 --> 00:31:34.710
Betty Ann bernard -John: That's a standard with her.
444
00:31:34.710 --> 00:31:35.160
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
445
00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:38.889
Betty Ann bernard -John: And then they shut down the hospitals, so no visitors whatsoever.
446
00:31:39.120 --> 00:31:40.700
Betty Ann bernard -John: So, it was a lot.
447
00:31:40.700 --> 00:31:41.320
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
448
00:31:41.320 --> 00:31:46.589
Betty Ann bernard -John: But I remembered, it's not like you got a chance to say, you know, I have to grieve, let me take a day off.
449
00:31:46.590 --> 00:31:47.150
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
450
00:31:47.150 --> 00:31:48.080
Betty Ann bernard -John: Nothing like that.
451
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:52.469
Betty Ann bernard -John: Lately, I think they said they have…
452
00:31:53.020 --> 00:31:55.749
Betty Ann bernard -John: Counselor or somebody you could go talk to.
453
00:31:55.750 --> 00:31:56.280
Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
454
00:31:56.520 --> 00:32:02.500
Betty Ann bernard -John: But from hindsight, I don't think much people bother. Most of us doctors don't bother. We just go on.
455
00:32:03.070 --> 00:32:03.570
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
456
00:32:03.570 --> 00:32:07.200
Betty Ann bernard -John: So… It does. You come home, you're sad.
457
00:32:07.990 --> 00:32:12.300
Betty Ann bernard -John: about it sometimes, and talk about the experience, of course, without giving names, but sometimes.
458
00:32:12.300 --> 00:32:12.780
Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
459
00:32:12.780 --> 00:32:14.089
Betty Ann bernard -John: Get it off your chest.
460
00:32:14.090 --> 00:32:14.570
Dr. Esther Bubb: True.
461
00:32:14.570 --> 00:32:17.620
Betty Ann bernard -John: So you talk it over, my mother-in-law was a nurse.
462
00:32:17.620 --> 00:32:17.970
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
463
00:32:18.740 --> 00:32:23.369
Betty Ann bernard -John: So, she would know, she's still working OBGYN also at one point.
464
00:32:23.890 --> 00:32:27.310
Betty Ann bernard -John: So you talk about the hard cases without giving names.
465
00:32:27.450 --> 00:32:31.929
Betty Ann bernard -John: And that's the most I get, like, you know, to talk about it, and then that's it.
466
00:32:32.340 --> 00:32:32.920
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
467
00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:33.560
Betty Ann bernard -John: Move on.
468
00:32:33.560 --> 00:32:34.540
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
469
00:32:34.570 --> 00:32:38.650
Betty Ann bernard -John: So… Has it impacted my life? I mean…
470
00:32:41.090 --> 00:32:48.290
Betty Ann bernard -John: Not necessarily my family life, I wouldn't say that. It hasn't changed anything or anything grand, so I'm.
471
00:32:48.290 --> 00:32:48.670
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
472
00:32:48.670 --> 00:32:50.010
Betty Ann bernard -John: Not really.
473
00:32:50.010 --> 00:32:50.380
Dr. Esther Bubb: Thank you.
474
00:32:50.380 --> 00:32:51.150
Betty Ann bernard -John: Yes.
475
00:32:51.460 --> 00:32:52.180
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
476
00:32:52.180 --> 00:33:15.329
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, that… that was… that was a powerful, inspiring story, Betty, and so we all, you know, have those experiences. So, like, I've had several instances where staff, I had to… they were… had a medical emergency, and we had to call 911, the ambulance came, you know, and I always… my practice is, Betty, and I always, always, always go with, whether it's a staff or a student, I ride on the ambulance with them and go to the hospital until family shows up, right? But…
477
00:33:15.510 --> 00:33:34.320
Dr. Esther Bubb: But I can tell you there was a recent experience where, like, I'm in the waiting room, in the lobby, waiting, you know, for them to say, because the parent wasn't there, like, you can go back and be with her, and I was just overcome with tears, because I'm like, you know what I mean? It impacts you, you know what I mean? It takes a toll, and I don't know how much people realize that the only… the one thing I can tell you, though, Bethian, is,
478
00:33:34.350 --> 00:33:48.080
Dr. Esther Bubb: my job has, like, an employee assistance program, so if you need to talk to someone, or if you need to, you know, take a break, whatever the case is, but sometimes it's not as intentional as we would all like it to be, right? But it does have an impact. But I think, Betty, on your upbringing.
479
00:33:48.080 --> 00:34:02.889
Dr. Esther Bubb: Because you have a supportive system around you, and I think, and your family, you know, and your friends, and I think you have so many positive, you know, experiences in your environment that kind of, you know, would not necessarily allow that to overcome you. Some people just don't, right? So…
480
00:34:02.890 --> 00:34:03.590
Betty Ann bernard -John: Okay.
481
00:34:03.590 --> 00:34:04.690
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
482
00:34:04.810 --> 00:34:07.260
Dr. Esther Bubb: I think that contributes a bit, you know?
483
00:34:07.260 --> 00:34:13.810
Betty Ann bernard -John: talk about a support, something I usually talk to, well, say, young mothers.
484
00:34:14.080 --> 00:34:14.620
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
485
00:34:14.620 --> 00:34:17.179
Betty Ann bernard -John: You know, in our society, you have…
486
00:34:17.429 --> 00:34:20.130
Betty Ann bernard -John: Just think about… and up to this day.
487
00:34:20.350 --> 00:34:22.679
Betty Ann bernard -John: I can't understand it, I mean… Yeah.
488
00:34:23.870 --> 00:34:28.269
Betty Ann bernard -John: I have a baby, I'm pregnant, I have a boyfriend, we don't live together.
489
00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:32.239
Betty Ann bernard -John: one house, I live in one house. Sometimes they live in different parishes.
490
00:34:32.370 --> 00:34:32.690
Dr. Esther Bubb: beer.
491
00:34:32.690 --> 00:34:36.719
Betty Ann bernard -John: And here you are, you're coming to have a baby, and you're gonna go home with the baby.
492
00:34:36.889 --> 00:34:37.239
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
493
00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:40.039
Betty Ann bernard -John: I mean, childbirth in itself has its trauma.
494
00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:40.770
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
495
00:34:40.770 --> 00:34:46.009
Betty Ann bernard -John: And now you… I'm from experience, now I know when you have a young baby, it's such a different…
496
00:34:46.010 --> 00:34:46.440
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
497
00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:52.809
Betty Ann bernard -John: everything. And here you are going to go home, back to your house, where your partner is not there.
498
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:53.310
Dr. Esther Bubb: Ian.
499
00:34:53.310 --> 00:35:00.769
Betty Ann bernard -John: And I'm trying to figure out, how do they end up getting the closeness of a family unit? Yeah. Mother, father, child?
500
00:35:00.770 --> 00:35:01.100
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
501
00:35:01.100 --> 00:35:02.600
Betty Ann bernard -John: I can never understand it.
502
00:35:02.600 --> 00:35:02.960
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
503
00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:06.090
Betty Ann bernard -John: I had support when I had my child.
504
00:35:06.090 --> 00:35:06.540
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
505
00:35:06.540 --> 00:35:11.760
Betty Ann bernard -John: I was living with my mother-in-law, she was there for us, I lived with my husband.
506
00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:12.380
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
507
00:35:12.380 --> 00:35:18.209
Betty Ann bernard -John: My mom used to come down. When I went back to work, she would come down, stay with the baby.
508
00:35:18.210 --> 00:35:18.600
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
509
00:35:18.600 --> 00:35:23.829
Betty Ann bernard -John: I mean, I had all this support, and at times, I felt overwhelmed.
510
00:35:24.410 --> 00:35:27.040
Betty Ann bernard -John: And I always used to be like, I don't know how this young.
511
00:35:27.040 --> 00:35:27.550
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
512
00:35:27.550 --> 00:35:28.420
Betty Ann bernard -John: Do it!
513
00:35:28.420 --> 00:35:29.030
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
514
00:35:29.190 --> 00:35:44.269
Betty Ann bernard -John: Without the support, without this… I had all the support, and I was still feeling overwhelmed sometimes. Yes, yeah. So, whenever I were underwater, I started realizing that. So, when I see the young mothers come, and I know they're not in that kind of family unit.
515
00:35:44.270 --> 00:35:44.690
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
516
00:35:44.690 --> 00:35:48.589
Betty Ann bernard -John: I always, in my mind, I'm thinking, oh boy, you don't know how hard it is there.
517
00:35:48.590 --> 00:35:49.919
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
518
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:50.770
Betty Ann bernard -John: on that.
519
00:35:50.770 --> 00:36:15.759
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah. So, so, yeah, really good point, and support is critical, and I think some of that, Bethian, lends itself to the next part of our conversation, right? Like, leadership in healthcare, but really social change, and talking… extending our conversation about gender-based violence. So it remains, as we all know, you know, a critical issue in Grenada, the Caribbean, but the world. Like, let's just be honest, right? We've just been seeing a lot more cases recently, and at this point, Bethian, with the most recent incident, it's not just even
520
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:16.390
Dr. Esther Bubb: young.
521
00:36:16.470 --> 00:36:23.710
Dr. Esther Bubb: People, it's seniors, right? How do you view gender-based violence as both a public health issue, but also a leadership challenge?
522
00:36:27.680 --> 00:36:30.259
Betty Ann bernard -John: We're doing a lot of workshops, we're doing a lot.
523
00:36:30.260 --> 00:36:30.750
Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
524
00:36:30.750 --> 00:36:41.820
Betty Ann bernard -John: for that, no. And, it's so complicated. It is. Whenever I hear gender-based violence, it's complicated. Very complicated.
525
00:36:42.170 --> 00:36:46.760
Betty Ann bernard -John: Because… Honestly, sometimes I feel so helpless when I do.
526
00:36:46.760 --> 00:36:47.170
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
527
00:36:47.170 --> 00:36:49.690
Betty Ann bernard -John: the litter, and I don't get…
528
00:36:49.860 --> 00:36:53.480
Betty Ann bernard -John: I don't get the big cases, like the rape cases. Okay.
529
00:36:53.650 --> 00:36:54.030
Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
530
00:36:54.030 --> 00:36:59.809
Betty Ann bernard -John: I've never had anything grand to have to deal with, honestly, from my own experience.
531
00:37:00.220 --> 00:37:04.469
Betty Ann bernard -John: I think, thank God, because, I mean, thinking about those poor women and not being.
532
00:37:04.470 --> 00:37:04.860
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
533
00:37:04.860 --> 00:37:06.260
Betty Ann bernard -John: I'm interested in helping them.
534
00:37:06.450 --> 00:37:07.659
Betty Ann bernard -John: Yeah. I mean…
535
00:37:09.020 --> 00:37:18.089
Betty Ann bernard -John: It's difficult. The government, we try. I don't know. Well, I say we try. I'm hoping that they do… they are trying, because here's one.
536
00:37:19.620 --> 00:37:22.440
Betty Ann bernard -John: I would be the first line, the doctors are the first line.
537
00:37:22.560 --> 00:37:41.549
Betty Ann bernard -John: That a patient come to. Right. So here you have somebody you have to offer emotional support, you have to treat them physically, and then you're left with the task of seeing where do you go from here? Yeah. Because it's not just, like, somebody coming with a cut, you suture it, tape it out, and they go about their business.
538
00:37:41.550 --> 00:37:42.710
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
539
00:37:42.710 --> 00:37:48.770
Betty Ann bernard -John: And… You see them. You have to try not to show no bias.
540
00:37:48.990 --> 00:37:54.680
Betty Ann bernard -John: Try to be sympathetic, listen carefully, try to make them feel as best as they can in that.
541
00:37:54.680 --> 00:37:55.230
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
542
00:37:55.230 --> 00:38:00.579
Betty Ann bernard -John: While trying to get information also, which would help them as best as you can.
543
00:38:00.580 --> 00:38:01.250
Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
544
00:38:01.420 --> 00:38:07.879
Betty Ann bernard -John: Then, the hard part is… After you've treated the wound, Collected what you need.
545
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:09.400
Betty Ann bernard -John: How do you go about?
546
00:38:09.730 --> 00:38:14.969
Betty Ann bernard -John: This is one of the harder parts, because there are so many limited resources.
547
00:38:15.340 --> 00:38:16.070
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
548
00:38:16.580 --> 00:38:22.269
Betty Ann bernard -John: counsellors, In Grenada, I think they are very limited. So…
549
00:38:22.410 --> 00:38:35.000
Betty Ann bernard -John: social development aspect in the ministry, where you have the counselors, I know they're understaffed, I know they're overworked. And then you have to deal with the fact that a lot of these women in Grenada… the Grenada is small.
550
00:38:35.190 --> 00:38:36.440
Dr. Esther Bubb: It is small, yeah.
551
00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:47.099
Betty Ann bernard -John: And this thing about confidentiality, nobody believes that there's any confidentiality. Yeah. So, I've had a lot of people who I refer to Congress say.
552
00:38:47.100 --> 00:38:57.170
Betty Ann bernard -John: I don't want no counseling, because I don't want my business all over the thing. So here you are now with a patient who definitely needs counseling, who doesn't want it because.
553
00:38:57.170 --> 00:38:57.530
Dr. Esther Bubb: Beautiful.
554
00:38:58.720 --> 00:39:01.600
Betty Ann bernard -John: You're challenged with that. That's one aspect.
555
00:39:01.600 --> 00:39:02.040
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
556
00:39:02.040 --> 00:39:05.520
Betty Ann bernard -John: Do I send her back in the same pool?
557
00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:09.499
Betty Ann bernard -John: They have a few safe houses, usually it's filled.
558
00:39:10.630 --> 00:39:10.950
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
559
00:39:10.950 --> 00:39:12.459
Betty Ann bernard -John: You have to call the police.
560
00:39:12.590 --> 00:39:16.529
Betty Ann bernard -John: You have to call the department. I think they have a special victims unit now.
561
00:39:16.530 --> 00:39:17.350
Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
562
00:39:17.350 --> 00:39:24.720
Betty Ann bernard -John: I've never had to call them so far since they've been established, so I can't say if they really work very well. Yeah. I mean…
563
00:39:25.020 --> 00:39:35.209
Betty Ann bernard -John: It's just… and then at the end of the day, most times, the women end up back the same place where they start, and you feel that all the challenges you have tried to overcome to help them.
564
00:39:35.350 --> 00:39:54.479
Betty Ann bernard -John: has gone to waste. Because I remember there was a time when they told me it had a safe house where women of domestic violence can go. And I remember a nurse saying, it doesn't make sense, because you're passing next to the house, and you're seeing the same men you tried to get the woman from at the gate, talking to the woman through the gate.
565
00:39:54.750 --> 00:39:55.440
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
566
00:39:55.440 --> 00:40:01.869
Betty Ann bernard -John: Some of them, within a few days, they leave and they go back. And it's just so much. That's why I said.
567
00:40:02.040 --> 00:40:02.730
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
568
00:40:02.730 --> 00:40:04.489
Betty Ann bernard -John: I don't even know how to approach it.
569
00:40:04.770 --> 00:40:05.100
Dr. Esther Bubb: Thank you.
570
00:40:05.100 --> 00:40:07.579
Betty Ann bernard -John: What I'll tell you is, like, that young lady.
571
00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:11.199
Betty Ann bernard -John: The same one I was talking about with the Andy, actually.
572
00:40:11.330 --> 00:40:11.990
Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
573
00:40:12.420 --> 00:40:13.910
Betty Ann bernard -John: she's GBV.
574
00:40:14.790 --> 00:40:19.989
Betty Ann bernard -John: I mean, she already started her channels, because I did talk to her about counseling stuff.
575
00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:27.910
Betty Ann bernard -John: And… I mean, I can't make the decision for her. The most I could have done in that aspect was say to God, you know what?
576
00:40:28.530 --> 00:40:32.020
Betty Ann bernard -John: You will have to sit down and decide what's best for you and your kids.
577
00:40:32.140 --> 00:40:35.220
Betty Ann bernard -John: You know all the answers, because I've been asking her.
578
00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:42.259
Betty Ann bernard -John: How does it affect your kids? What happens? I said, you've seen it, so you know, and you have to make that decision.
579
00:40:42.690 --> 00:40:50.540
Betty Ann bernard -John: I am… there was one, I gave a number for the police, I tell her she can call them, they would guide her what to do.
580
00:40:50.720 --> 00:40:51.050
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
581
00:40:51.050 --> 00:41:01.690
Betty Ann bernard -John: They come with their cuts and their bruises. There was once I had to do with somebody who claimed she was beaten. You take your pictures, I asked her, she took her pictures. Have your pictures, report to the police.
582
00:41:02.040 --> 00:41:02.730
Dr. Esther Bubb: Dear.
583
00:41:02.730 --> 00:41:10.660
Betty Ann bernard -John: I try, but sometimes it feels… not sometimes. Most times, and in workshops I point to that, most times it feels like
584
00:41:10.910 --> 00:41:20.910
Betty Ann bernard -John: your hands are tied in terms of, after treating the wounds, what to do. And I think it's something we really, really need to work more on.
585
00:41:21.650 --> 00:41:24.400
Betty Ann bernard -John: And that need improvement faster rather than later.
586
00:41:24.630 --> 00:41:44.300
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah, I agree, with you, with you, Bethian, on that. It's… it's one of those things where it's so complex. It's a, it's a complex issue, because, you know, we're talking about an island, we're talking about a small island, we're talking about limited resources, we're talking about mindsets, you know, culture, things like that. So it's very complex, and so I've spoken to,
587
00:41:44.390 --> 00:41:55.740
Dr. Esther Bubb: the episode I released yesterday, all of the youths, you know, we talked about that, but I also spoke to Timothy about this topic as well, and we all talked about, like, the education, right? That it has to start from young.
588
00:41:55.930 --> 00:42:15.729
Dr. Esther Bubb: But to your point, we could do it from young, right? But then, there are… people encounter so many, you know, different circumstances and experience in life that we can do all of this when young, but it can't be undone. But I think at the end of the day, it just… it has to come from home. It has to come from home, because I think of your story, I think of my story, I think of other stories. I think of your daughter, I think of my daughter.
589
00:42:15.730 --> 00:42:18.890
Dr. Esther Bubb: It started for them, it started for us, Betsyan, at home.
590
00:42:18.890 --> 00:42:20.410
Dr. Esther Bubb: And so, if…
591
00:42:20.410 --> 00:42:40.219
Dr. Esther Bubb: I think that's one of the places we have to start, is in the home, but how do we do that is really the question. You know what I mean? And not just for the girls, for the boys, too. How are we raising our boys? You know, what are we teaching them? What are we exposing them to? Another thought is, so they may… we may give them all these resources, but if they don't have a job, so how can we help them find jobs? And I know it's a complex conversation, Betty, and for.
592
00:42:40.220 --> 00:42:40.660
Betty Ann bernard -John: I agree.
593
00:42:40.660 --> 00:42:41.990
Dr. Esther Bubb: Nita, right?
594
00:42:41.990 --> 00:42:42.330
Betty Ann bernard -John: It is.
595
00:42:42.330 --> 00:42:44.369
Dr. Esther Bubb: But, yeah, you're so right.
596
00:42:44.890 --> 00:42:52.810
Betty Ann bernard -John: And you do have a point with your education. The last workshop I was in, we were talking about
597
00:42:54.510 --> 00:43:02.130
Betty Ann bernard -John: the… trying to change… Yeah. This law is trying to change where they let children 12 years be able to seek.
598
00:43:03.150 --> 00:43:03.850
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
599
00:43:04.260 --> 00:43:12.419
Betty Ann bernard -John: Yeah. And even in the gender-based violence workshop, too, education is key, and I have stated that I don't think
600
00:43:12.750 --> 00:43:20.429
Betty Ann bernard -John: we put… enough… Emphasis in the curriculum when it comes to education and sexual.
601
00:43:20.430 --> 00:43:21.670
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
602
00:43:21.670 --> 00:43:27.249
Betty Ann bernard -John: They don't. And I remember telling them in the last meeting, HFLE, all I learned about was puberty.
603
00:43:28.170 --> 00:43:33.400
Betty Ann bernard -John: They don't have the raw sex talk. They don't talk about domestic violence, they don't.
604
00:43:33.400 --> 00:43:33.750
Dr. Esther Bubb: Right.
605
00:43:33.750 --> 00:43:42.930
Betty Ann bernard -John: about how you treat one another. I mean, I remember joking with my daughter, one time and say, I don't find you guys know what it is to date.
606
00:43:43.460 --> 00:43:52.300
Betty Ann bernard -John: them young guys know what it is to use a pickup line, or how to attract a girl. Hey, girl, your bottom look good. I said, that's not a pickup line.
607
00:43:52.300 --> 00:43:53.239
Dr. Esther Bubb: Nope, not at all.
608
00:43:53.240 --> 00:44:06.850
Betty Ann bernard -John: And unless we don't have proper training, I think we need to do better in curriculum. You talk about home. Yes, home have a lot to play with it, but we have to remember, society has shifted. We no longer have the older folks being.
609
00:44:06.850 --> 00:44:07.560
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
610
00:44:07.560 --> 00:44:10.949
Betty Ann bernard -John: leading parent. Yeah. You have the teenagers who got.
611
00:44:10.950 --> 00:44:11.269
Dr. Esther Bubb: pregnant with.
612
00:44:11.270 --> 00:44:20.570
Betty Ann bernard -John: and they were in their teens, so now the child is a little bit older, and they have a little bit more freedom. They don't have time to do any educating there. They want to be able to live the life that they miss.
613
00:44:20.570 --> 00:44:21.550
Dr. Esther Bubb: Right, yeah.
614
00:44:21.550 --> 00:44:29.860
Betty Ann bernard -John: So, it has been a big breakdown in terms of getting proper education at home, proper motivation, proper moral modeling.
615
00:44:29.860 --> 00:44:30.250
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
616
00:44:30.250 --> 00:44:32.799
Betty Ann bernard -John: So, where there's a little slack at home.
617
00:44:33.040 --> 00:44:33.410
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
618
00:44:33.410 --> 00:44:34.340
Betty Ann bernard -John: and pickup.
619
00:44:34.340 --> 00:44:35.840
Dr. Esther Bubb: The school can pick up, yes.
620
00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:37.490
Betty Ann bernard -John: curriculum guidelines.
621
00:44:37.490 --> 00:44:37.810
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
622
00:44:37.810 --> 00:44:42.899
Betty Ann bernard -John: Let's talk about sex. Talk about the real sex. The generation nowadays don't want nothing sugar-coated.
623
00:44:42.900 --> 00:44:44.080
Dr. Esther Bubb: Nope, nope.
624
00:44:44.260 --> 00:44:48.820
Betty Ann bernard -John: Right? And they have so much more tools now that they can use in school.
625
00:44:48.820 --> 00:44:49.600
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
626
00:44:49.600 --> 00:45:03.339
Betty Ann bernard -John: It's no longer telling the child, go and study, go in the library and look for encyclopedia XYZ, and come back and bring it. You have so much more tools, and until they don't change the curriculum to include proper education as early as
627
00:45:03.660 --> 00:45:06.949
Betty Ann bernard -John: I say as early as grade 1.
628
00:45:06.950 --> 00:45:07.650
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
629
00:45:08.050 --> 00:45:08.829
Dr. Esther Bubb: To start the call?
630
00:45:08.830 --> 00:45:12.340
Betty Ann bernard -John: Our children are talking about, oh, mommy and dad in the bedroom.
631
00:45:12.340 --> 00:45:12.800
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
632
00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:14.340
Betty Ann bernard -John: On top of one another.
633
00:45:14.340 --> 00:45:15.000
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
634
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:19.579
Betty Ann bernard -John: So, if you don't bring in a proper education, we will not reach
635
00:45:19.830 --> 00:45:22.270
Betty Ann bernard -John: The minds that we're trying to reach.
636
00:45:22.270 --> 00:45:22.730
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
637
00:45:22.730 --> 00:45:25.489
Betty Ann bernard -John: And we can't wait till they are adults.
638
00:45:25.490 --> 00:45:25.850
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
639
00:45:25.850 --> 00:45:31.069
Betty Ann bernard -John: Yes, having proper job and all of that. It goes back to what you learned from early, like me.
640
00:45:31.070 --> 00:45:32.220
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
641
00:45:32.350 --> 00:45:41.179
Betty Ann bernard -John: what you learn from early, what you understand from early, and then your motivation to do what is right. Because I have a path to Esther.
642
00:45:41.180 --> 00:45:41.660
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
643
00:45:41.660 --> 00:45:43.770
Betty Ann bernard -John: Two sisters grew up in the same home.
644
00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:45.870
Dr. Esther Bubb: True, true, yes, yes.
645
00:45:45.870 --> 00:45:50.109
Betty Ann bernard -John: They get the same… they see the same parent, they see the same thing every day.
646
00:45:50.380 --> 00:45:52.899
Betty Ann bernard -John: And one decided to be a bad girl, and one.
647
00:45:52.900 --> 00:45:53.360
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
648
00:45:53.360 --> 00:46:08.030
Betty Ann bernard -John: follow the straight and narrow. So it has to do, too, with the mindset. A lot of it. Yeah. But we do need to, I don't know, we do need to get something going to break this… I don't know if you say bad streak we have going on.
649
00:46:08.030 --> 00:46:09.559
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
650
00:46:09.560 --> 00:46:10.530
Betty Ann bernard -John: It's catching the list.
651
00:46:10.640 --> 00:46:16.960
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, and you raise an excellent point, Betsyan, about nature-nurture, right? Like, so everybody grows up in the same house, and we walk different paths.
652
00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:19.949
Betty Ann bernard -John: That's what you call it, nature nurture? Yeah.
653
00:46:21.900 --> 00:46:25.099
Dr. Esther Bubb: Nature, what we're all born with, and nurture, what we exposed to, like, you know, the.
654
00:46:25.100 --> 00:46:25.560
Betty Ann bernard -John: Yeah.
655
00:46:25.560 --> 00:46:36.950
Dr. Esther Bubb: And it's just like, yeah. And, you know, you've raised some really excellent points, because McKaylin Elementary School had those conversations in school. They happened here, you know, with me. You know, as her mother.
656
00:46:36.950 --> 00:46:47.630
Dr. Esther Bubb: But then also, once she turned 14, whenever she went to the doctor, like, I had to excuse myself from the room. They would say, we need to ask her some questions. So then they would ask them those kinds of questions so that they're not influenced
657
00:46:47.630 --> 00:47:02.120
Dr. Esther Bubb: And if she needed to share some information, like this was happening, she can share it, and I'm not there making her feel like she can't respond. Even me now, Betty, and at my age, when I go to the doctor, they ask those kinds of questions. Are you safe at home? Are there any guns in home? You know, things like that. They have social work and support, so, like.
658
00:47:02.410 --> 00:47:15.479
Dr. Esther Bubb: whether I choose to answer or not and share the information is a different question, but, like, those are just some ideas, you know, the education and, like, you know, making sure people have opportunities to answer those questions. Because even if you… I'm thinking back to your story about
659
00:47:15.600 --> 00:47:30.059
Dr. Esther Bubb: the girl who came in, and the grandmom, you know, told her she had to have sex with this guy, I think it's just the way you approached it. You were just a human, and just having a conversation, right? And then it came out, so I think… I think those are, like, all parts of, like, this larger puzzle.
660
00:47:30.240 --> 00:47:32.470
Dr. Esther Bubb: You know, on this topic.
661
00:47:32.470 --> 00:47:41.949
Betty Ann bernard -John: There's still this thing here where, we're not allowed to treat patients without underage, under 18, without an adult in the room.
662
00:47:42.520 --> 00:47:44.650
Betty Ann bernard -John: Right? Yeah. So…
663
00:47:45.160 --> 00:47:57.230
Betty Ann bernard -John: that's something probably we need to work on. What I do to… if I realize, and not everybody have the ability to realize, because some people may not be like me and push, I guess my daughters here fast.
664
00:47:58.510 --> 00:47:58.830
Betty Ann bernard -John: What else?
665
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:10.760
Betty Ann bernard -John: I realize there's something I need to ask that I don't think, for example, she come in, there's this young girl that came in, and the mother said she was complaining of having a vaginal discharge.
666
00:48:10.760 --> 00:48:11.240
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
667
00:48:11.240 --> 00:48:16.169
Betty Ann bernard -John: No. If I ask her if she's sexually active in front of the mother, more than likely she would say no.
671
00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:40.850
Betty Ann bernard -John: So yes, we still have all of this to deal with.
672
00:48:41.210 --> 00:48:41.870
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
673
00:48:41.870 --> 00:48:49.520
Betty Ann bernard -John: But education, I think they need to do better in school. If we start from school, at least, whatever they missed at home.
674
00:48:49.720 --> 00:48:50.370
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
675
00:48:50.370 --> 00:48:56.730
Betty Ann bernard -John: We might be able to push forward, because believe it or not, whether we teach them in a structured way.
676
00:48:56.910 --> 00:48:57.340
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
677
00:48:57.340 --> 00:49:03.520
Betty Ann bernard -John: They do learn it. They go on the internet, they visit the pond sites, and then what they learn are the TV and stuff.
678
00:49:03.860 --> 00:49:04.320
Dr. Esther Bubb: BF.
679
00:49:04.320 --> 00:49:08.389
Betty Ann bernard -John: So, if you don't take control, and I learned that from early with my daughter.
680
00:49:08.390 --> 00:49:08.870
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
681
00:49:08.870 --> 00:49:13.090
Betty Ann bernard -John: Because from day one, stage one, kindergarten.
682
00:49:13.090 --> 00:49:13.650
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes.
683
00:49:13.650 --> 00:49:19.050
Betty Ann bernard -John: First day of school, she came back home and said to me, Mommy, at girl time, let's go behind the school and play the kissing game.
684
00:49:19.530 --> 00:49:20.210
Dr. Esther Bubb: Hmm.
685
00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:21.049
Betty Ann bernard -John: I was like, what?
686
00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:25.220
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah. No, no, no, no!
687
00:49:25.220 --> 00:49:30.089
Betty Ann bernard -John: And then I… I pushed that away, and then at some other point, was it grade 1?
688
00:49:30.180 --> 00:49:45.890
Betty Ann bernard -John: She's talking about how to make babies, how her friend tell her the mother and father just go in the room, and they just stick articles and lay them on one another. So when I got that one, I was like, no, no, no, no, no. I have to start talking about this problem now, because if I don't teach her.
689
00:49:45.890 --> 00:49:46.300
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yep.
690
00:49:46.300 --> 00:49:48.739
Betty Ann bernard -John: She's gonna learn it, and she's gonna learn the wrong things.
691
00:49:48.740 --> 00:49:49.140
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
692
00:49:49.140 --> 00:49:50.710
Betty Ann bernard -John: I was forced, because it was
693
00:49:51.070 --> 00:49:54.530
Betty Ann bernard -John: intention at that time, from how I learned, how I grew up.
694
00:49:54.530 --> 00:49:55.650
Dr. Esther Bubb: Exactly, yeah.
695
00:49:55.650 --> 00:50:08.120
Betty Ann bernard -John: not my intention to talk about it so early, probably when I had the talk when I had my first period. So I was probably thinking around them time there, but then when my girl coming home and telling me things that…
696
00:50:08.310 --> 00:50:11.600
Betty Ann bernard -John: I should be telling her. I started pretty early.
697
00:50:11.600 --> 00:50:19.529
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yep, yep, exactly, and same. So once I started hearing those conversations around Michaela, or getting those questions, and you're right, it's just how we were raised, it was like, shh, no.
698
00:50:19.930 --> 00:50:37.549
Dr. Esther Bubb: That's not for you to know. So, I think, you know, just our experiences, but I think also, so Betty and, you know, our education, going out of the country traveling, I think all of that, you know, contributes to how we view things now, and, you know, I'm ready to support however I can, so reach out.
699
00:50:37.680 --> 00:50:55.889
Dr. Esther Bubb: So, let's close our conversation up, Etienne, in terms of, like, what advice you'd have for change makers. So, what is one Monday morning move you would recommend? Just something small, you know, specific, intentional, that listeners listening to this conversation can take away this week to begin creating positive change in their own lives, the lives of their children, you know, the communities, those that they serve.
700
00:50:56.960 --> 00:50:59.050
Betty Ann bernard -John: Is there a Monday morning routine?
701
00:50:59.560 --> 00:51:00.040
Betty Ann bernard -John: like.
702
00:51:00.040 --> 00:51:07.579
Dr. Esther Bubb: a Monday morning move, something they can do as they start the week or as they start the day, you know, to create change, even if it's just small.
703
00:51:08.320 --> 00:51:10.530
Betty Ann bernard -John: You know, I hate Mondays.
704
00:51:10.530 --> 00:51:12.050
Dr. Esther Bubb: I'm gonna hit pause.
705
00:51:12.050 --> 00:51:13.090
Betty Ann bernard -John: Days of the week, but.
706
00:51:13.090 --> 00:51:13.550
Dr. Esther Bubb: We did.
707
00:51:13.550 --> 00:51:14.579
Betty Ann bernard -John: These are the worst.
708
00:51:14.580 --> 00:51:15.850
Dr. Esther Bubb: Okay.
709
00:51:15.850 --> 00:51:18.069
Betty Ann bernard -John: I mean, I'm not a morning person.
710
00:51:18.070 --> 00:51:18.410
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah.
711
00:51:18.410 --> 00:51:19.710
Betty Ann bernard -John: You know, it's a bed.
712
00:51:20.490 --> 00:51:31.100
Betty Ann bernard -John: So, there's nothing that I… I can't think of anything that I do on a Monday to motivate me. All I know, I keep telling myself, oh, I wish the weekend was a little bit longer.
713
00:51:31.100 --> 00:51:32.389
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, exactly, yeah.
714
00:51:32.390 --> 00:51:34.709
Betty Ann bernard -John: I could teach them how to make the weekend longer.
715
00:51:35.160 --> 00:51:36.329
Betty Ann bernard -John: That would be the best.
716
00:51:37.180 --> 00:51:37.940
Betty Ann bernard -John: Ta-hum!
717
00:51:39.420 --> 00:51:47.229
Betty Ann bernard -John: I can't think of anything I do that makes Mondays better. Nothing at all. Probably the Sunday night, I decide what I'm gonna wear.
718
00:51:47.500 --> 00:51:49.430
Dr. Esther Bubb: So, planning ahead.
719
00:51:49.730 --> 00:52:09.640
Betty Ann bernard -John: planning ahead, but yes, you could put it that way. I never look at it as a motivation, but I do know that Sunday I would say, let me decide what I'm wearing Monday, because I already know I'm going to be waking up in a groggy mood, not wanting to go to work. So, at least if I have my outfit ready, or I know what I'm going to wear, it takes away from one less thing to be grouchy about.
720
00:52:09.640 --> 00:52:20.850
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yes, I love that, I love that. That's… that's super active. In terms of what I… all the stuff I do, behavior, that's the antecedent. Everything we do before, that makes it more likely that that behavior is going to happen. So, see ya.
721
00:52:20.850 --> 00:52:22.430
Betty Ann bernard -John: But I'm still grocery on a Monday.
722
00:52:22.430 --> 00:52:24.289
Dr. Esther Bubb: You're so grouchy!
723
00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:26.799
Betty Ann bernard -John: And I can tell you tomorrow I'll be grocery too soon.
724
00:52:26.800 --> 00:52:45.550
Dr. Esther Bubb: But I love that you entered my world of behavior analysis, so that was great. It was a great way to close this out, but planning ahead, being prepared, and I think just… you even gave it in your daughter, and for me, like, planning ahead, educating them, right? So, whatever it is, whether it's picking out the outfit or having those conversations, you know, doing it before the thing that we don't want to happen happens, yeah.
725
00:52:46.300 --> 00:53:04.560
Dr. Esther Bubb: Bethian, this was a very down-to-earth, open, honest, relational, you know, inspiring, and just fun conversation, you know? Obviously, we grew up together, we know each other for years, but there are a lot of aspects of the intricacies of our life that we may not necessarily be aware of, so I was able to learn a bit more today, and I do appreciate that. Thank you so much.
726
00:53:05.050 --> 00:53:07.770
Betty Ann bernard -John: Very welcome. Thanks for thinking about me.
727
00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:11.929
Betty Ann bernard -John: I mean, I was very hesitant, because, you know…
728
00:53:11.930 --> 00:53:13.600
Dr. Esther Bubb: I'm glad.
729
00:53:13.600 --> 00:53:14.879
Betty Ann bernard -John: I was able to help.
730
00:53:15.130 --> 00:53:16.070
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yeah, yeah.
731
00:53:16.070 --> 00:53:19.070
Betty Ann bernard -John: And I hope whatever I say here helps somebody.
732
00:53:19.220 --> 00:53:34.460
Dr. Esther Bubb: Yes, yes, and that's… yes, that's the goal bit, and I think it will. You've shared the stories, the stories are what really, you know, what people hold onto, and you've shared so many stories, and I do appreciate that. They're very authentic, you know? Yeah. Thank you so much.
Outro
Thank you for listening to Behaviorally Speaking: Leadership for Change-Makers. Be sure to visit esthercbubbabaservices.com/blog for today's companion blog and additional leadership resources. Until next time, create the conditions for growth wherever you lead. I'm Dr. Esther Bubb. Stay inspired.