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00:00:35.085SANTE, sante AMARE MORTI NECRADAS NOS IN TEIS PERAVERT in taste for a verant study out today that says women become unhappy as they get older.
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00:00:39.386Well, the flip side, men get happier as life goes on.
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00:00:52.241First of all, this study was conducted by mostly men, and when men conduct anything, they talk about their finances, because men judge themselves by the size of their wallet Toys, dare I say so?
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00:00:55.299You put all your toys together in a parking lot and it makes you happy.
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00:01:01.573If they were to ask other questions in this study about spirituality, about the other aspects of our lives, that women would have taken over.
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00:01:04.209I mean, first of all, a woman has a sexual crime at 35.
00:01:04.299 -->
00:01:05.120There's a reason that women live, have taken over.
00:01:05.120 -->
00:01:06.200I mean, first of all, a woman has a sexual crime at 35.
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00:01:07.519There's a reason that women live longer, mark, let me tell you.
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00:01:12.031It is because we are stronger and we are happier at the end of the day than most men.
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00:01:14.028And that is factual and you know it.
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00:01:19.152When men are married to women who scream like you they just want to die sooner.
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00:01:35.207Oh, that was good what I love about these is that you, anthony and rob, are catching up on like what we watched a decade ago, and you're like these are amazing.
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00:01:41.310They are amazing here's the thing I gave up I so I didn't actually give up twitter for lent.
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00:01:44.030What I did was yeah, we knew at this point.
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00:01:46.763I'm only going to post edifying stuff, right?
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00:01:59.426So yesterday I posted and we're going to get into one of the tweets I posted because it's one of the responses to it and then today I posted something edifying, and then I have to kind of go through Twitter to find show stuff.
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00:02:06.109It's where I get content for the show, so there's no way around it.
00:02:06.109 -->
00:02:07.504I kind of have to do it.
00:02:07.504 -->
00:02:10.849So I saw that video and I'm like okay, this works for an opener and I threw it up.
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00:02:13.687So that's where I got it, nick, I don't have to tell you.
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00:02:29.802But I'm glad we're all here today, because today we're going to be talking about the heresy that is SCOTUSM that is scotism and why St Thomas and Pinus?
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00:02:31.365So okay, so Gideon Lazar is here.
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00:02:33.187Gideon Lazar is here.
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00:02:36.931We've been trying to get Gideon on for a very long time now.
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00:02:50.073We have like 10,000 new subs in the past three months and we did Rob and I did like a series of episodes Nick episodes nick, too, nick was with us.
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00:02:56.520We did a series of episodes on evolution and we kind of like went through it over the course of a few months and then we haven't spoken about it in like a year and a half.
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00:03:05.169But we have a lot of new subscribers and I think it's oh, you know, I think it'll be exciting to talk about again, because we haven't touched on this topic in a long time.
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00:03:07.668Gideon this is kind of like his specialty.
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00:03:12.931Gideon, you're participating in a conference, coming up right, yeah.
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00:03:36.955So for my work, I work for something called the St Basil Institute for the Study of the Theology of Creation, of creation, and so essentially the idea behind this symposium is or behind this whole institute is that we felt a lot of the discussions around the theology of creation really tend nowadays to focus on sort of faith-science debates.
00:03:36.955 -->
00:03:39.504So you get on one side people are how do we reconcile Catholicism and evolution?
00:03:39.504 -->
00:03:44.783And on the other side you get all right, how do we use modern science to actually refute evolution?
00:03:44.783 -->
00:03:56.780But it really focuses on the scientific aspect and what we felt is that there wasn't actually enough discussion on what does the Catholic Church actually teach on the theology of creation, and this is a huge issue.
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00:04:04.033Like we've interviewed seminarians and stuff and found that a lot of seminaries today they're not even teaching seminarians about the theology of creation.
00:04:04.033 -->
00:04:07.180Seminaries today they're not even teaching seminarians about the theology of creation.
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00:04:14.859We have found I mean there's a mention at one point from Ratzinger in one of his books about how this isn't being taught in seminaries and it seems like it's gotten a bit better.
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00:04:17.129Like people are realizing this is a big discussion.
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00:04:33.387We're noticing other institutes are doing conferences as well, but we felt like we wanted to help advance that discourse and so we've been meeting in private for the last few years and we thought this year, why don't we do something a bit more public, invite in some other people to watch our discussions?
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00:04:40.350And this is not just like we're not as an institute against evolution per se, like we have theistic evolutionist speakers.
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00:04:49.988We have speakers who are very critical of theistic evolution, but what we try to do is say, all right, let's not focus on those scientific debates, let's focus on the theological matters at hand.
00:04:49.988 -->
00:04:54.750So the link in the description you'll find a link to the conference.
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00:04:58.509We have the schedule up as well as a link to register.
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00:05:04.031Tickets are selling, so please make sure to go ahead and register if you'd like to attend.
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00:05:08.466It's June 6th through 8th in Steubenville at the St Paul Center.
00:05:08.466 -->
00:05:10.552We have an amazing lineup of speakers here.
00:05:10.552 -->
00:05:19.583We got Scott Hahn, john Bergsma, jared Goff he used to be big on YouTube a few years ago Father Thomas Crean.
00:05:19.583 -->
00:05:30.473We also have this panel discussion with Father Thomas Crean and two other speakers, timothy Kearns and Brother Matthew Warnes, on how does human sin affect the natural world.
00:05:30.473 -->
00:05:36.552So we'll have Father Thomas Crean defending that Adam's sin not only caused human death but also caused animal death.
00:05:36.552 -->
00:05:50.521Dr Timothy Kearns will be arguing actually, it's the fall of Satan that caused animal death, and Brother Matthew Orna is arguing that no, actually it's the original intention of God that animals die and that animals were never included in this gift.
00:05:50.521 -->
00:05:52.747This is an open question in Catholic theology.
00:05:52.747 -->
00:05:56.610This will be a great discussion and we have a whole bunch of other speakers as well.
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00:06:01.927We have a retreat with Mass in the Dominican Rite, so it's going to be an awesome conference.
00:06:01.927 -->
00:06:02.608Please come if you can.
00:06:02.608 -->
00:06:04.454It'll be a great time, so it's going to be an awesome conference.
00:06:04.473 -->
00:06:04.995Please come if you can.
00:06:04.995 -->
00:06:05.476It'll be a great time.
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00:06:10.4646 to the 8th, right, yeah, I mean with that lineup it's going to sell out.
00:06:10.464 -->
00:06:19.016So I would tell you guys, if you have any interest in it, get your tickets, because it's at the St Paul Center, it's in Steubenville and you got guys like Han there.
00:06:19.016 -->
00:06:21.483It's going to sell out.
00:06:21.483 -->
00:06:26.093So if you guys can and you're considering it, definitely put it on your calendar and get those tickets as quick as you can.
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00:06:29.139So we're going to get into that topic a little bit later.
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00:07:13.182I wanted to kind of discuss the some of the insane Protestant takes that I've seen from Lent before we did, and we also have an article written by a Protestant protestant about how catholic apologetics are exploding online and how, like it used to be protestants who would use catholics as like prime, uh, like fertile ground to go and pull converts towards protestantism and it's kind of flipped the other way now where catholics are tempting, uh, protestants towards tradition because we kind of have like a more you know, uh, whatever, we'll get into the article and we'll get into that before we do.
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00:07:21.235Rob, we have, uh, we have a, an ad to read or anything, or yeah, let's play, uh, our ad for our sponsor requisite sellers.
00:07:21.877 -->
00:07:25.928And ant, while that plays, when you work on your mic, it's's making a terrible, terrible noise.
00:07:25.949 -->
00:07:26.771All right, let me.
00:07:26.771 -->
00:07:28.786Okay, but I'm going to play the ad here.
00:07:30.880 -->
00:07:35.005This video is brought to you by Reckless and Sellers, the winery with the mission.
00:07:35.005 -->
00:07:47.362These folks are unapologetically Catholic and pro-life, so they're not just fermenting grapes, they're fermenting conviction, a small family-run fruit farm and winery in Washington State.
00:07:47.362 -->
00:07:53.360They're pouring out big, full-bodied Bordeaux-style red wines that will make your taste buds say amen.
00:07:53.360 -->
00:07:56.103Plus, they've got farm-fresh fruit.
00:07:56.103 -->
00:08:13.767So pre-order now and they'll ship it when by their site, requisite sellerscom, use code based 25, that's b-a-s-e-d-2-5 for 10 off and sip some grace while supporting avoiding babylon.
00:08:13.767 -->
00:08:15.473Cheers to that.
00:08:15.473 -->
00:08:24.437Hold on, wait a minute okay, talk now.
00:08:24.596 -->
00:08:25.338Is it still going?
00:08:25.338 -->
00:08:26.040It's still happening.
00:08:26.040 -->
00:08:28.925What?
00:08:28.925 -->
00:08:29.526Is it all?
00:08:30.026 -->
00:08:34.673right guys crackling like you had wire interference all right, guys.
00:08:34.693 -->
00:08:35.760Let me know if it got any better.
00:08:35.760 -->
00:08:36.201I don't know.
00:08:36.201 -->
00:08:37.524Um, okay.
00:08:37.524 -->
00:08:47.316So I want to start off with uh, rob, I sent you the tweet to the show notes with me saying oh, no, no, that's no, no, that's the wrong one.
00:08:47.316 -->
00:08:51.745Wait, the one shoot.
00:08:51.745 -->
00:08:52.167Which one was it?
00:08:52.167 -->
00:08:52.488I don't know?
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00:08:52.850Sorry, guys.
00:08:53.860 -->
00:08:56.047Oh, embrace these small penances.
00:08:56.047 -->
00:08:56.488So I sent you a tweet.
00:08:56.488 -->
00:09:00.139It says embrace these small penances we offer All right.
00:09:00.139 -->
00:09:02.283So embrace these small penances we offer to God.
00:09:02.283 -->
00:09:08.270This is our opportunity to unite our sufferings to the cross of Christ, to participate even a little to the salvation of souls.
00:09:08.270 -->
00:09:20.347And I posted a quote from St Francis de Sales said so devotion is the real spiritual sweetness which takes away all bitterness from mortifications and prevents consolations from disagreeing with the soul.
00:09:20.347 -->
00:09:23.330It cures the poor of sadness and the rich of presumption.
00:09:23.330 -->
00:09:27.871It keeps the oppressed from feeling desolate and the prosperous from insolence.
00:09:27.871 -->
00:09:31.442It averts sadness from the lonely and dissipation from social life.
00:09:31.442 -->
00:09:35.350It is as warmth in winter and refreshing due in summer.
00:09:35.350 -->
00:09:40.328It knows how to abound and how to suffer, want, how to profit alike, by honor and contempt.
00:09:40.328 -->
00:09:47.683It accepts gladness and sadness with an even mind and fills men's hearts with wondrous sweetness.
00:09:47.683 -->
00:09:51.071So underneath it you'll see the response from aj.
00:09:51.130 -->
00:09:52.942Apparently no one can see what I'm sharing.
00:09:52.942 -->
00:09:54.688Which is what?
00:09:54.708 -->
00:09:54.830do you?
00:09:54.850 -->
00:10:00.945mean you guys can see what I have on screen right I see yeah yeah yeah that's very strange it's not appearing on the youtube, are you sure it's?
00:10:01.025 -->
00:10:06.815not appearing on the YouTube Are you sure it's not Well, I guess it's interesting.
00:10:07.659 -->
00:10:08.846Well, let's try this again.
00:10:11.142 -->
00:10:13.642Man, we're having all sorts of tech issues today.
00:10:13.682 -->
00:10:17.328Weird because we can all see it here but it's not actually streaming out.
00:10:19.221 -->
00:10:20.125Did they see the opening video?
00:10:21.823 -->
00:10:24.466Yeah, they saw the ad, they saw all that.
00:10:29.243 -->
00:10:30.125They just can't see what I'm sharing.
00:10:30.125 -->
00:10:30.585Still nothing Dang.
00:10:30.644 -->
00:10:31.927I just checked the YouTube stream.
00:10:31.927 -->
00:10:32.707It's not going.
00:10:32.707 -->
00:10:33.850That is all right.
00:10:33.889 -->
00:10:37.696Well either way our crazy resident AJ said.
00:10:37.696 -->
00:10:43.885And yet you tell me you don't believe in salvation by works.
00:10:43.885 -->
00:10:47.211See if they can see this?
00:10:47.251 -->
00:10:49.657Can you guys see that?
00:10:49.657 -->
00:10:50.177No, that's not so.
00:10:50.177 -->
00:10:52.447To say something like embrace these small penances we offer to God with joy.
00:10:52.447 -->
00:10:58.009This is our opportunity to unite our sufferings to the cross of Christ, to participate even a little in the salvation of souls.
00:10:58.009 -->
00:11:08.681And somebody else wrote if you think you can participate in your own salvation, then sorry the, the.
00:11:09.522 -->
00:11:27.794There is this strange thing that happens in Protestantism where they say good works are okay, so you're saved by faith alone and good works are done in gratitude because of the fact that you were saved.
00:11:27.794 -->
00:11:29.986That's how they see it, right.
00:11:29.986 -->
00:11:35.413So there's actually a canon from the Council of Trent that says that that's anathema.
00:11:35.413 -->
00:11:47.943If you claim that that's anathema Because in a way, what they're saying is they are responsible for their good works, like for a Catholic, look, I so not being on social media as much.
00:11:47.943 -->
00:11:50.409I'm not saying I'm off totally, but not being on it as much.
00:11:50.490 -->
00:12:14.614I've spent a lot of the last two days reading, and I've read more in the last two days than I have in, like the last year, and so much of what I'm reading is all about how, during this time of penance, the, the practice of fasting, prayer and almsgiving and good works throughout Lent, like the good works, will grow God's love in your heart, like you actually are.
00:12:14.614 -->
00:12:17.725It's like turning a flame into a fire.
00:12:17.725 -->
00:12:21.640By doing good works, you actually enkindle God's love within you.
00:12:21.640 -->
00:12:31.033They have absolutely no concept of this whatsoever and they don't actually see it as good works are the response to grace.
00:12:31.033 -->
00:12:35.304It's more like they see good works in opposition to grace.
00:12:36.847 -->
00:12:45.128I want to highlight here M Proximus' comment, because I think this biblical verse really blows up the whole Protestant position here.
00:12:45.128 -->
00:12:50.905Could you imagine if this quote wasn't in the new testament and was like in thomas aquinas or something, how protestants would react to it?
00:12:52.188 -->
00:12:53.611yeah, absolutely right.
00:12:53.653 -->
00:13:02.104If this was written by a church father and not, I know, paul I guarantee, if you just put this out as a tweet, you would get people.
00:13:02.183 -->
00:13:20.081You would get protestants saying that that's crazy yeah, and have you ever seen that like meme where there was some protestant debating with some eastern orthodox and the protestant guy like stuck up some quote from, uh, the new testament and then put like dash martin luther afterwards, and then the orthodox guy went on to explain how it's heretical, like I feel?
00:13:20.102 -->
00:13:23.830like you could do this here, but with like a church father against some.
00:13:23.870 -->
00:13:24.350Protestant.
00:13:24.350 -->
00:13:29.961Oh man, it really is strange how they see Lent Like.
00:13:29.961 -->
00:13:35.413There's another guy who said if you were going to give something up for Lent, I suggest that you give up pagan practices like Lent.
00:13:35.413 -->
00:13:49.904For example, how they can see the practice of fasting for 40 days to imitate our Lord Right, and even before that they understand tithing right.
00:13:49.904 -->
00:13:56.782So the original practice was actually giving up 36 days as a tithe of your days of the year.
00:13:56.782 -->
00:14:00.370So that was how Lent kind of originated.
00:14:00.370 -->
00:14:04.222It was like, oh, we have to tithe a 10th of our days, so it was 36 days.
00:14:04.222 -->
00:14:14.515Then the church later adds Ash Wednesday to Good Friday to make it more symbolic, with the 40 days of Christ and Moses and Elijah fasting for their time.
00:14:14.515 -->
00:14:25.235But the idea that they think imitating Christ could actually be a deficit to your salvation is like confounding to me.
00:14:25.235 -->
00:14:25.876I don't get it.
00:14:27.438 -->
00:14:27.960Well it's, it's.
00:14:27.960 -->
00:14:31.830It's interesting because it's like selective following of Christ.
00:14:31.830 -->
00:14:45.260So it's like they will, of course, emphasize the reality of like loving your neighbor and doing good to the poor, things on that sort, but when it comes to the, the reason that they're going to reject Lent is because Lent for us is penance.
00:14:45.260 -->
00:15:04.296Right us is penance, doing penance, punishing past sins, doing reparation for past sins, elevating the intellect, Whereas for them they don't have a concept of penance because, again in their mind, with perpetuatory justification by faith alone, it's just going to be God declares you righteous, so there is no need to do penance.
00:15:04.296 -->
00:15:07.639By faith alone, it's just going to be God declares you righteous, so there is no need to do penance.
00:15:07.639 -->
00:15:11.024Although it is weird you brought this up, Anthony about the swing of Protestants becoming Catholic.
00:15:11.044 -->
00:15:17.807I'm even starting to see local evangelical churches around here, including my old one from when I grew up, who are starting to do more Catholic-y practices.
00:15:17.807 -->
00:15:21.965As an example, this is the first year that they're celebrating Lent.
00:15:21.965 -->
00:15:22.625Now.
00:15:22.625 -->
00:15:23.267It's insane.
00:15:23.267 -->
00:15:28.823This is a non-denom evangelical normie place, but they're celebrating Lent Now.
00:15:28.823 -->
00:15:36.866They're not doing penances, they're not fasting, they're not doing almsgiving, but they're just talking about resurrection stories, about how Christ has impacted your life.
00:15:36.866 -->
00:15:42.508Of course that's fine, but it's interesting because you're just starting to see almost like a wayward child.
00:15:42.508 -->
00:15:46.883You have to imitate the parent in one form or fashion.
00:15:46.883 -->
00:15:51.253So it's like all evangelicals, deep, deep down, want to be Catholic in some form.
00:15:51.700 -->
00:16:35.783Well, I was going to ask you, do you think that's because that might link into the article we're going to read, where I think, more than our Catholic hierarchy recognizes it, that I do think a lot of Protestant pastors are starting to recognize the draw of tradition, right, Like going back to some ancient practices from the early church, something like Lent and I think they see the online apologists presenting these traditions and Protestants are jumping at them, where I think our own hierarchy is trying to get rid of some of these traditions, not recognizing the state the world is in right now and that especially young men want to be challenged and they kind of want to go find something the world doesn't offer them.
00:16:37.106 -->
00:16:39.312Yeah, orthodoxy is huge for that reason.
00:16:39.312 -->
00:16:51.586You see, and I think it's all it's similar to, for instance, in 2020, when everything got shut down how a lot of Catholics saw the traditional Latin Mass for the first time online and they got drawn to it.
00:16:51.586 -->
00:16:57.749A lot of evangelicals are looking around and they're like, okay, I kind of get tired of Big Eva Mega Rock Concert Church, I'm looking around for something more filling.
00:16:57.749 -->
00:17:07.479And then they look and they see the Orthodox Church or they see a traditional Mass and they're drawn to that the Orthodox church or they see a traditional mass and they're drawn to that.
00:17:07.538 -->
00:17:15.739And, honestly, for an evangelical, when you just crack the fathers open, you've most evangelicals have never been exposed to the church fathers and when they do, it comes as a hard shock.
00:17:15.739 -->
00:17:23.704As my own example, I didn't eat for three days whenever I realized the Catholic church was true, because I recognize just how messed up and wrong I was.
00:17:23.704 -->
00:17:27.953But that thing is happening over and over and over again to all of these people, all the young men.
00:17:27.953 -->
00:17:37.452When you go to a Protestant evangelical service, if you see this guy up there with his coffee and skinny jeans talking about how you know, how's your heart, brothers?
00:17:37.452 -->
00:17:40.061How is your heart as opposed to dude.
00:17:40.061 -->
00:17:41.885My life is like overcome with sin.
00:17:41.885 -->
00:17:42.989Society hates me.
00:17:42.989 -->
00:17:48.142I need to cling to somewhere Right and that's why they're going to tradition.
00:17:48.162 -->
00:17:49.483So, gideon, you were going to talk.
00:17:49.483 -->
00:17:49.624Ok.
00:17:49.624 -->
00:17:58.015So when we go on locals tonight, we're going to actually talk about the phenomena of Torah observing Christians and Messianic Jews.
00:17:58.015 -->
00:18:03.823We're going to talk to Gideon about that a little bit just to get his take.
00:18:03.823 -->
00:18:07.169So, gideon, you're actually a Jewish convert and you end up going to the Byzantine Rite.
00:18:07.169 -->
00:18:11.342Did you ever do the Novus Ordo thing or did you go right to the Byzantine Rite?
00:18:11.844 -->
00:18:18.223So I'll say, technically I'm Byzantine Rite, but like with two little kids in the Byzantine Rite and Latin Mass, both like an hour away.
00:18:18.223 -->
00:18:21.269Honestly, most Sundays I go to the local Novus Ordo nowadays.
00:18:21.868 -->
00:18:31.480But it's interesting for like, coming from this Jewish background, right, you're giving people an example of like just how liberal theologically the synagogue I grew up in is.
00:18:31.480 -->
00:18:34.948I remember hearing a sermon once about how the Exodus never happened.
00:18:34.948 -->
00:18:37.824I told my when I was going to become a Christian.
00:18:37.824 -->
00:18:46.989I went and I met with my rabbi and I told him about this and his answer was that really no religion is true, so you might as well just remain Jewish and what else.
00:18:46.989 -->
00:18:54.608Oh yeah, as another example, I'm pretty sure that they would have been okay, for example, with like marrying two men so long as they were both Jewish.
00:18:55.009 -->
00:18:59.551So like, this is the sort of like liberalism that I grew up in in terms of religion.
00:18:59.551 -->
00:19:09.513But we did everything liturgically very traditionally and like when I had my bar mitzvah I had to learn all the proper Hebrew chant and everything.
00:19:09.513 -->
00:19:16.153Like I spent a year learning all the proper notation and making sure I had to get a tutor and everything to make sure I had it.
00:19:16.153 -->
00:19:19.349We remember we had to look up like obscure chant, notation and stuff at some point.
00:19:19.349 -->
00:19:21.779So we were very liturgically traditional.
00:19:22.000 -->
00:19:28.253So coming into Christianity to me part of religion was liturgy from the beginning and like written set prayers.
00:19:28.253 -->
00:19:29.400Part of it was sacred language.
00:19:29.400 -->
00:19:41.532Like I did not pray in English at all growing up, I only prayed in Hebrew, and so to me this is just the world of like seeing especially low church Protestantism just looks so weird.
00:19:41.532 -->
00:19:44.728Like to me the Novus Ordo is extremely low church, you know.
00:19:44.728 -->
00:19:54.127And then you look at Protestants Like I in college I went to a Catholic college and I had a very good friend there who was non-denominational and he went to the Novus Ordo when he was at church.
00:19:54.127 -->
00:19:54.869He was lowercase.
00:19:54.869 -->
00:20:00.509You know there's the uppercase non-denominational where it's really a denomination and you've got the lowercase Christians.
00:20:00.509 -->
00:20:01.388He was more like that.
00:20:01.388 -->
00:20:23.266So he would go to mass with Catholics on Sunday at the church and he would go to the most college campus type like Novus Ordo, like the 10pm where they have flutes and guitars out and stuff, and he would talk about like oh, this is kind of too ritualistic for me, gideon, I'm curious real quick.
00:20:25.105 -->
00:20:28.311What sect of Judaism, because that's an interesting mix.
00:20:28.311 -->
00:20:30.384Is this like a conservative version or something?
00:20:31.909 -->
00:20:33.720So a lot of people they don't understand.
00:20:33.720 -->
00:20:38.087When they hear the word conservative they think like it's actually conservative, what it really means.
00:20:38.087 -->
00:20:39.420More is liturgically conservative.
00:20:39.420 -->
00:20:42.202Like it's compared to the Episcopalians.
00:20:42.202 -->
00:20:51.363Like you go into an Episcopal church and you almost think you're attending like a very beautiful Catholic church, until you hear the sermon and it's about gay marriage or something like that.
00:20:51.363 -->
00:20:58.203You know versus like I go to my cousin's reform synagogue and it was they would have like projectors up, they would use some guitars.
00:20:58.203 -->
00:21:00.329Like it was not as liturgically traditional.
00:21:01.000 -->
00:21:03.047But they'd be like gays are not going to heaven.
00:21:03.307 -->
00:21:09.546No, traditional, but they'd be like gays are not going to heaven, no, something like that.
00:21:09.546 -->
00:21:14.058So I'll tell you, the wildest sermon I ever heard is so they only read the do the readings in uh, hebrew.
00:21:14.058 -->
00:21:18.432They don't do the readings in english, but the, the books, have the readings in english if you want to read along.
00:21:18.432 -->
00:21:27.067So I'm at my cousin's bar mitzvah and I'm reading along in the english and the reading is something from like deuteronomy, like forbidding, forbidding-dressing.
00:21:27.067 -->
00:21:30.682But it also says at one point in there, justice, justice you shall pursue.
00:21:30.682 -->
00:21:37.007And the rabbi proceeds to give a sermon on how we need to fight for like gay rights and stuff like that, because the Torah talks about justice.
00:21:37.608 -->
00:21:51.288Like I don't know how these liberal rabbis get around this right, because you have like, if you like are Christian right and you like are Christian right, and you see, like some gospel readings, you can take some gospel readings and try to twist them into some sort of liberal message and stuff.
00:21:51.288 -->
00:21:53.701Right In Judaism you have liturgical readings about stoning people to death.
00:21:53.701 -->
00:21:56.666Like, how do you turn this into like some liberal stuff?
00:21:57.730 -->
00:22:08.720So so okay, so well, the reason I was asking is because you, going from Judaism into Catholicism, like how alien is this Protestant understanding of?
00:22:08.720 -->
00:22:14.666Just kind of like it's gotta seem more alien to you, like you were never tempted by Protestantism, right?
00:22:14.666 -->
00:22:15.328No, I wasn't.
00:22:15.862 -->
00:22:19.744No, there's some Protestant, like biblical scholars and stuff I very much liked reading.
00:22:19.744 -->
00:22:52.304I really appreciated their work, but I've never really been interested in being Protestant because it just it lacks any aspect of religion, like St Thomas Aquinas has this whole discussion on the virtue of religion and we tend to think about religion nowadays as something strictly supernatural, but St Thomas actually sees it as something natural that we know through human reason that God exists and we all have this longing in our human heart to honor God and we have a desire to honor God through ritual and so things like sacrifice and priesthood and other things.
00:22:52.304 -->
00:23:06.221St Thomas sees this as actually something natural that there's never been a society in human history that doesn't have things like sacrifice and priesthood and ritual and so on, and so that's just how we honor God and so you have to have something there.
00:23:06.221 -->
00:23:08.750If you take it away, something else is going to replace it.
00:23:10.476 -->
00:23:18.711Yeah, somebody pointed out the other day on Twitter that a lot of these um, uh, man, what was it?
00:23:18.711 -->
00:23:21.741Um, the Puritans that came over to America.
00:23:21.741 -->
00:23:34.169They come here and they get rid of all the liturgical trappings of Catholicism in their mind and they become Freemasons and they start doing these dark, ritualistic things, because the human heart really is designed for liturgy.
00:23:34.169 -->
00:23:38.236Yeah, absolutely so, okay.
00:23:38.236 -->
00:23:39.826So now, Rob, okay.
00:23:39.826 -->
00:23:43.711So the other one I saw was for the next 40 days, I'm giving up nothing.
00:23:43.711 -->
00:23:47.868Jesus paid it all and I will find rest in all that he gave up for me.
00:23:48.579 -->
00:23:50.969This, this lack of.
00:23:50.969 -->
00:23:57.633I don't understand what they think Jesus means when he says build treasure in heaven.
00:23:57.633 -->
00:24:09.625Like, how do you make sense of when Christ actually tells us, like, when you do something, don't you know if you give with your right hand, don't let your left hand see what you're doing?
00:24:09.625 -->
00:24:10.910Or don't you know when you pray?
00:24:10.910 -->
00:24:15.070Don't do as the Pharisees do, because you will receive your reward from men.
00:24:15.070 -->
00:24:23.906Like, if you're parading your holiness around, you're receiving your reward on earth, but do it in secret in a dark room and only your Father in heaven sees it, and then you will build treasure in heaven.
00:24:23.906 -->
00:24:25.650I don't understand what.
00:24:25.650 -->
00:24:27.713What they do with verses like that.
00:24:27.713 -->
00:24:31.150It's kind of like there's this compartment that they just ignore completely.
00:24:33.121 -->
00:24:34.644Yeah, it's a.
00:24:34.644 -->
00:24:48.154It's something that I think that, at least from my days, they would view those verses as you know, your these are going to be rewards given to you by in heaven, but not they don't determine whether or not you will be saved, but how much rewards you will get in heaven.
00:24:48.154 -->
00:25:14.837The issue, though, that, when you come across this, is that, when you look at the writings, in particular of St Paul right that we just referenced earlier, he is warning the churches over and over and over again 1 Corinthians, 6, 9, and 10, ephesians 5, 1 through 5, galatians 5, 19 through 21, that if you do wicked actions adultery, fornication, sodomy, effeminacy, lying, murder, cheating, etc.
00:25:14.837 -->
00:25:16.819You will not inherit the kingdom of God.
00:25:16.819 -->
00:25:23.093And these are written to Christians, like the books are addressed to the churches at Galatia, to the churches at Ephesians, etc.
00:25:23.093 -->
00:25:27.961At Galatia, to the churches at Ephesians, etc.
00:25:27.981 -->
00:25:32.411And so, when you look at what the Protestant mindset is, it's one of we've come from a founder that was hyper-scrupulous.
00:25:32.912 -->
00:25:34.253Luther was hyper-scrupulous.
00:25:34.253 -->
00:25:56.770He didn't like the fact that he was not experientially righteous in this exact moment, and so he created his system, and so, from there, we have this whole mentality of Christ paid it all, which is true in the sense that Christ earned a infinite amount of merits by his death and grace, but he applies that to us when we say yes.
00:25:56.770 -->
00:25:57.792So the only way.
00:25:57.792 -->
00:26:03.383I personally this is my hot take for the night, I guess, before we get into locals and start talking about really spicy stuff.
00:26:03.383 -->
00:26:14.392But for the normie crowd, my hot take is this the only consistent Protestant is a Calvinist Because ultimately, for Luther's system to work, you have to deny free will's existence.
00:26:14.392 -->
00:26:16.586That's the only way for it to work.
00:26:16.586 -->
00:26:22.949If you believe in free will, then man has to choose God in some form or fashion or cooperate with God in some form or fashion.
00:26:22.949 -->
00:26:27.194If man doesn't have free will, then, yes, it is totally ungodly and he has to declare us righteous.
00:26:28.922 -->
00:26:29.980We can't do anything because we don't have a will.
00:26:29.980 -->
00:26:41.817So okay, from here I think we should go into the two drastic opposing things that I saw online this week.
00:26:41.817 -->
00:26:43.750One was on Crisis Magazine.
00:26:43.750 -->
00:26:52.953Eric Sammons posted an article how, for every 100 Catholics that get baptized and brought into the church, 800 are leaving.
00:26:52.953 -->
00:26:58.583So that was one side and it was kind of like oh my goodness, this is devastating, we have to get a handle on this.
00:26:58.583 -->
00:27:05.851But then the other side was this Protestant article that Rob sent today and it says Roman Catholic apologetics is surging online.
00:27:05.851 -->
00:27:08.248Intended audience Protestants.
00:27:08.248 -->
00:27:10.467So, rob, you want to pull that article up.
00:27:12.522 -->
00:27:14.086Yeah, let's see if this one actually works.
00:27:14.106 -->
00:27:15.832Yeah let's see if it works.
00:27:15.832 -->
00:27:22.509Someone in the chat was saying that Christian Wagner had issues too, so there might be a StreamYard issue like overall system issue.
00:27:23.160 -->
00:27:24.306Let us know if you guys can see that.
00:27:24.306 -->
00:27:26.931Nope it.
00:27:26.931 -->
00:27:27.563Overall system issue.
00:27:27.563 -->
00:27:28.018Let us know if you guys can see that.
00:27:28.018 -->
00:27:29.893Nope, it's not broadcasting, it's not broadcasting.
00:27:29.932 -->
00:27:30.974Okay, I'll just read it then.
00:27:32.301 -->
00:27:33.467It has to be a StreamYard thing.
00:27:33.467 -->
00:27:34.845Did they do an update or?
00:27:34.944 -->
00:27:35.205something.
00:27:35.205 -->
00:27:41.088Streamyard just introduced something called Scenes, where you can edit.
00:27:41.088 -->
00:27:44.903You can have different scenes ready for different sort of things.
00:27:44.903 -->
00:27:46.547Oh wait, nope, it's on now.
00:27:46.547 -->
00:27:47.648It just took where you can edit.
00:27:47.648 -->
00:27:50.756You can have different scenes ready for different sort of things, and I've oh wait, no, it's on now.
00:27:50.776 -->
00:27:51.176It just took a while.
00:27:51.176 -->
00:27:51.698Okay, they see it.
00:27:51.698 -->
00:27:52.759Okay, they see it, okay, okay.
00:27:52.759 -->
00:27:58.560So in recent years, several notable Protestant converts to Roman Catholicism have made waves online.
00:27:58.560 -->
00:28:05.371Influencers like Cameron Bertuzzi of capturing Christianity, candace Owens, joshua Charles Josh gets a shot at this.
00:28:06.211 -->
00:28:07.473I want to see you try to pronounce this.
00:28:10.384 -->
00:28:12.871Eva Vlardingerbroke Vlardingerbroke.
00:28:13.599 -->
00:28:15.568That's better than I thought you were going to do?
00:28:16.362 -->
00:28:16.964I don't know.
00:28:17.267 -->
00:28:20.028So she throws the timer from various expressions of Protestantism.
00:28:20.028 -->
00:28:30.652Prominent evangelical pastors like Ulf Ekman, keith Nestor another shout out to our friend and Brooke Thelander have made headlines when they converted to Roman Catholicism.
00:28:30.652 -->
00:28:35.991Similar stories are littered across social media, youtube and websites like the Coming Home Network.
00:28:35.991 -->
00:28:44.905Prior decades witnessed numerous Protestant prominent Protestants to Catholic conversions, including Francis Beckwith, christian Smith and Thomas Howard.
00:28:44.905 -->
00:28:45.688I don't know any of them.
00:28:45.688 -->
00:28:48.993What drives these Christian thinkers to make this jump?
00:28:48.993 -->
00:28:57.829Several theories could be explored, but one factor might concern the surprising savvy of online Catholic apologetics, particularly on platforms like YouTube.
00:28:57.829 -->
00:29:12.651When someone has questions surrounding various views on Christian traditions, doctrines or sacraments example, given the Eucharist, a YouTube search will turn up a litany of Roman Catholic videos, while Protestant perspectives are rarely sufficient and accurately presented.
00:29:12.651 -->
00:29:14.787I suspect there are at least two reasons.
00:29:14.787 -->
00:29:16.686I'm going to keep reading, rob, so don't take it down.
00:29:16.686 -->
00:29:17.820I'm just.
00:29:17.820 -->
00:29:18.663I can't believe.
00:29:18.663 -->
00:29:21.191Catholic Answers doesn't get any kind of shout out in here.
00:29:21.191 -->
00:29:23.423This is so funny.
00:29:23.423 -->
00:29:25.809There's not even a mention of Catholic answers.
00:29:25.809 -->
00:29:29.104Trent Horn, jimmy Akin none of those guys.
00:29:29.124 -->
00:29:38.690So first, catholic apologists are much more focused on growing Roman Catholicism as an institution uh, ie, the one true church then on merely winning souls for Christ.
00:29:38.690 -->
00:29:39.432That's nonsense.
00:29:39.432 -->
00:29:46.425I wonder why this makes sense, giving Catholicism traditional view that to be outside the church is to be outside Christ.
00:29:46.425 -->
00:29:47.166That is correct.
00:29:47.166 -->
00:29:53.836The call home is a call to the institution of the Catholic Church, not merely a call to find redemption in Christ.
00:29:53.836 -->
00:30:07.669Secular cultures, loss of morality, with focusing enough on learning and practicing our Protestant distinctives.
00:30:07.669 -->
00:30:15.780But it is precisely this focus on Protestant distinctives that would naturally clarify the differences between Protestant tradition and Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
00:30:16.061 -->
00:30:17.425Take it down, we'll get back into it.
00:30:17.425 -->
00:30:40.541I want to just touch on something here real quick, because this goes kind of to the Michael Knowles Charlie Kirk conversation too Right Now the fact that modern evangelicalism is so disjointed and a majority of what you see as apologetics is different streams of Christian thought, none of it coherent.
00:30:40.541 -->
00:30:46.972You get people on on Twitter like S chad and aj and indiana brunner.
00:30:46.972 -->
00:31:01.122Now all of these guys all claim to read the bible and believe it and they have soul scriptura, but if you bring up like anything to do with um, like end times or anything like that, like they'll start arguing with each other.
00:31:01.241 -->
00:31:06.846none of them agree on anything I mean half the people that would read this would probably take issue with being called protestant.
00:31:06.846 -->
00:31:07.888Even you know what I mean.
00:31:08.329 -->
00:31:12.509Yeah, a lot of them a lot of them don't like the fact that they're being called, uh, protestant.
00:31:12.828 -->
00:31:24.703But I do think there's this new way of having this conversation where, um, they're, they're hearing things they've never heard before.
00:31:24.703 -->
00:31:34.441Right, like there was always just that one path of Catholic answers that people would go to and they would give these copy-paste answers from Catholic answers, which were always very good Don't get me wrong, I'm not.
00:31:34.441 -->
00:31:46.664You know, if you're talking about discussing something with a Protestant, like the Catholic answers platform has plenty of good resources, but I do think all of these new guys coming in are doing it from a different angle.
00:31:46.664 -->
00:32:15.761Like gideon, you said your first time watching our show was because you were looking something up with joshua, charles, yeah, and josh and I, like both of us, kind of feel the best way to evangelize now is not even through, like, uh, quote text or what do you call proof texting, through scripture and things like that, but more more to go back through Christian history and show the spread of Christianity through the pagan world or using typology or something like that are better arguments towards Protestants in this modern day.
00:32:16.523 -->
00:32:40.481Absolutely, and I think one of the big shifts in Catholic YouTube is that we used to be the Catholic answer, which was very much geared towards fundamentalist evangelicals, because those were really big and sort of the mid to late 20th century in America, right, but like people always talk about like, for example, dispensationalism on Twitter, like I've seen like two dispensationalists like ever on Twitter, like they're just not around among Gen Z Protestants even anymore.
00:32:40.481 -->
00:32:59.946Like the landscape has just shifted so much in the online Christian world that now we're responding to more intelligent critiques of Catholicism, for example, from the Orthodox, from people like Jay Dyer, from the Protestant side, people like Gavin Ortland, who are putting forward more substantive critiques of our tradition.
00:32:59.946 -->
00:33:04.705And I think at first, when that stuff began happening, it really scared the Catholic world.
00:33:04.705 -->
00:33:34.182Right, it was like Jay Dyer could seem to like steamroll Catholic answers, yeah, but now we've had a new generation of young people coming on who are returning to our tradition and they thought they sort of had us and now we're back to winning, I think, again online, you know, like we just have such a richer intellectual tradition and then there's also a lot of people online who are just interested in learning about, perhaps, what other religions have to think and just get impressed with our theological tradition.
00:33:34.324 -->
00:33:41.507I recently got in touch with a young rabbi he's about our age, about 25 or so, who reached out to me online.
00:33:41.507 -->
00:34:02.003We spoke over the phone for like four hours or so and he loves YouTube channels like mine or Christian Wagner's or other people because, coming from a very traditional Jewish education, he can then see what is a coherent theological system and what is not, and so he can really respect scholasticism even though he disagrees, because he can see its internal consistency and how it makes sense and so on.
00:34:02.003 -->
00:34:16.503Versus the catholic answers approach is not impressive unless your intellectual background is, just say, like fundamentalist evangelicalism, because then you have so little intellectual background in your tradition that anything looks really impressive.
00:34:16.503 -->
00:34:19.833You know, I was watching ruslan yesterday.
00:34:20.175 -->
00:34:30.530I was watching ruslan yesterday and his co-host said they were just because, cause they were talking about the Sam Shamoon thing, which we got to get Sam Shamoon back on to discuss his whole thing with George Janko.
00:34:30.530 -->
00:34:40.648I texted him and I did talk to him behind the scenes a little bit, but so Ruslan was discussing it and he was like talking about Catholicism a little bit and his co-host goes.
00:34:40.648 -->
00:34:50.851I got to tell you, the Catholics kind of got me on two issues the saints and and artificial birth control, and he goes and bruce, like I was really he goes.
00:34:50.851 -->
00:34:55.889Yeah, like the logic is so consistent when it comes to artificial birth control, he goes.
00:34:55.889 -->
00:34:57.393I don't think I'm gonna follow it.
00:34:57.840 -->
00:35:05.130I'm still gonna use it, but the logic is really sound and tight that's why you need the strict rules.
00:35:05.130 -->
00:35:30.219That's why you need the strict rules on these things, because when our concupiscence is so pushing us against doing something that for most people, the only way they'll do it is if they're told you have to so something like birth control anything short of it is absolutely forbidden is not going to convince 95% of people Listen the thing that actually convinced me the Catholic church was the one true church was the birth control issue.
00:35:30.460 -->
00:35:48.784It was like every other denomination of Christianity caved on this issue except Catholicism and it's like it is the and if you go through the teaching and you understand why Catholics teach that it's like the most sound logic and it's the only way you can use it.
00:35:48.784 -->
00:35:58.518Like Protestants, the only defense they have to say that same sex, anything is wrong is by quoting something from the old Testament Like it doesn't.
00:35:58.518 -->
00:36:08.454It's not even mentioned in the new text Testament where Catholics use the natural law and they say that there's a purpose behind your sex organs and it's like you know you have a purpose to these.
00:36:08.454 -->
00:36:16.626So when, by using the natural law, you could come to the conclusion that artificial birth control is wrong, any, any kind of sex outside of wedlock is wrong.
00:36:16.626 -->
00:36:21.621So you, you have a very consistent worldview where it's not just plucking a scripture verse.
00:36:21.621 -->
00:36:31.623And then, because if you just pull that Old Testament verse out where it says you know, man shall not lie with a man, you could also go and say, ok, but why can't you eat shellfish anymore, or why can't that'll?
00:36:31.643 -->
00:36:37.420be something will be interesting in the conversation later when we discuss the Torah observing Christians.
00:36:37.420 -->
00:36:39.340But, Nick, I know you have some things to say.
00:36:40.702 -->
00:36:50.710Oh, just the only thing that came to mind was on that point that you just made about Protestantism abandoning just, if you will, what they used to teach.
00:36:50.710 -->
00:36:55.472And then, gideon, your point about Protestants who try to rediscover their own tradition.
00:36:55.472 -->
00:36:58.695It reminds me of evangelicalism.
00:36:58.695 -->
00:37:00.777Again, this is just where my experience is.
00:37:00.777 -->
00:37:09.507They have the whole mantra of it's not a religion, it's a relationship right, which we've debunked and talked about the insanity of that.
00:37:09.507 -->
00:37:21.434But what's so insane about evangelicalism at this point and this is why I think a lot of young guys in particular converting is that because of that, evangelicals can't even go back to traditional protestantism.
00:37:21.434 -->
00:37:26.626Like to say, like I remember when I was growing up in evangelicalism, I was like why can't we go back to hymns?
00:37:26.626 -->
00:37:27.652Like can't we?
00:37:27.853 -->
00:37:36.773Uh, I'll tell you guys this one story one time when I was in like a senior of high school, we were at our evangelical church having this event where you could come and ask questions about the church.
00:37:36.773 -->
00:37:40.463So I showed up wanting to ask questions about like hey, what do we believe on?
00:37:40.463 -->
00:37:46.351Like a lot of these stuff, because we don't even have a statement of faith on our website and no statement of faith that's ever given to us.
00:37:46.351 -->
00:37:52.106We never had a catechism, so it was just denominations of all kinds of stuff hanging out with each other.
00:37:52.608 -->
00:37:57.311I showed up and a person cut me off at the pass, knowing that I was going to be speaking there.
00:37:57.311 -->
00:38:14.065They grabbed the back of my shirt and they escorted me out of the room and and the reason then was this might be divisive the whole issue with Protestantism is because you guys have abandoned the concept of tradition and, with that, just on a natural level, philosophy.
00:38:14.065 -->
00:38:41.385You have now regulated yourself into the world of solo scriptura, answering all the questions for yourself, and that's why, again, yeah, catholic answers is great for that crowd, but I'm glad that we have people like sam shamoon coming on, especially because, again, like there's that whole wing of apologetics to the islamic world that really needs to be discussed well, well, the one thing I'll say, I'll say about even uh, ruslan's co-host, um him, saying that, well, you know I'm not going to follow it, but it's definitely coherent.
00:38:41.505 -->
00:38:56.943It's like so you have this one teaching that you understand, but because you don't understand mortal sin and the ramifications of committing mortal sin and separation from God's grace, because you choose it like it really does come as a whole coherent thesis.
00:38:56.943 -->
00:39:06.190Catholicism and I think that is the most attractive quality of our faith, is that everything works together in harmony, you know, and it's not.
00:39:06.190 -->
00:39:14.809You can't just pick and choose one thing here, one thing there, and it just everything has to be a coherent thesis that all fits together and just works.
00:39:15.690 -->
00:39:40.650Yeah, yeah, I think one of the big reasons this is the birth control thing is convincing so many people now is if you read Humanae Vitae, like it was just so prophetic of what happened, Like could you imagine in the 1960s right, Even the people who were like very big sexual libertines could you imagine saying like, hey, in like 50, 60 years they're going to be doing like drag queen story hours in like publics, libraries and stuff like?
00:39:40.650 -->
00:39:47.152Stuff like that would shock even probably your most liberal people back when Humanae Vitae was released.
00:39:47.152 -->
00:39:52.786So now you see that everything that was predicted came true, and even a lot more than that.
00:39:52.786 -->
00:40:04.092And so we realize, I know you actually have to have some sort of guardrails on sexuality or else you run just rapidly down to crazy land real quick.
00:40:05.061 -->
00:40:08.510Every bit of the sexual revolution was caused by artificial birth control.
00:40:08.510 -->
00:40:17.789Like every single thing we're seeing today, that we're like the culture's falling apart, it all comes down to the sexual revolution and the allowance of birth control to even be legal.
00:40:17.789 -->
00:40:21.289You know, it's just, it just all falls from there.
00:40:21.289 -->
00:40:25.554So now, all right, should we go back to it real quick?
00:40:25.554 -->
00:40:29.268Yeah, um, okay.
00:40:29.268 -->
00:40:32.038So yeah, protestants are a primary catholic mission field.
00:40:32.038 -->
00:40:33.081This is what I found interesting.
00:40:33.081 -->
00:40:36.442And then we're going to get into evolution, because we only, we gotta, we gotta get off this topic.
00:40:36.442 -->
00:40:43.115But where protestant apologetics is more focused on winning the secular world to christ, roman catholic apologetics often has a different audience in mind.
00:40:43.115 -->
00:40:44.621They're separated brethren.
00:40:44.621 -->
00:40:47.608Targeting protestants is explicitly encouraged.
00:40:47.608 -->
00:40:51.846One writer argues we have from baptism a mandate to evangelize.
00:40:52.588 -->
00:40:58.989What, what happened, what I it's like, explicitly like, discouraged by like the I was like what?
00:40:59.090 -->
00:41:01.635no, like what are you talking about?
00:41:02.882 -->
00:41:03.483yeah, that's what's.
00:41:03.483 -->
00:41:12.000Oh, they see, they see, the thing is, even though all of their missions are in catholic countries, every single one of them.
00:41:12.780 -->
00:41:22.255What it is is that all of the online Catholics are just honestly dissidents and schismatics because they're evangelizing.
00:41:22.255 -->
00:41:24.766That's the reason why they're just still proselytizing man.
00:41:24.766 -->
00:41:28.565You can't get off that drug man, you just got to keep proselytizing.
00:41:29.039 -->
00:41:42.166Okay so William Lane Craig recently commented on this trend Many Catholic apologists seem to be more exercised and worked up about winning Protestants to Catholicism than they are with winning non-Christians to Christ, and that seems to me to be a misplaced emphasis.
00:41:42.166 -->
00:41:51.561Okay, so the reason why this is all happening is because, well, first off, what was who's the guy who started with the?
00:41:51.561 -->
00:41:53.487Uh, with the, with the jack chick?
00:41:53.487 -->
00:41:55.012Uh tracks that.
00:41:55.012 -->
00:42:01.150Uh, he wrote he started, yeah yeah, what's his name, oh um, carl keating, is that?
00:42:01.251 -->
00:42:02.172yeah.
00:42:02.172 -->
00:42:23.632So like what he realized was that protestants are actually really good, like, uh, it's a really good garden to go and harvest from because these are people who already love Christ, right, so it's like you don't have to convince them of the initial arguments of God's existence, they're not like, they already love Jesus.
00:42:23.632 -->
00:42:34.320You just have to show them how their theology is a little off and how a lot of times, if you just show how much protestants disagree on, they'll go wait a minute.
00:42:34.320 -->
00:42:35.322By whose authority?
00:42:35.322 -->
00:42:35.623Right?
00:42:35.623 -->
00:42:43.981Like if you could just get the idea of authority into a protestant's head, a lot of times that will be the thing that makes them go down the rabbit hole of wait a minute.
00:42:43.981 -->
00:42:47.065Why is the one that I'm with the right thing and that?
00:42:47.065 -->
00:42:49.427And that's why I think that does happen.
00:42:49.849 -->
00:42:51.210Tom has a great point here.
00:42:51.210 -->
00:42:55.235I wish the church was as bad-ass as Jack.
00:42:58.639 -->
00:43:00.565Jesuits infiltrating everywhere.
00:43:00.565 -->
00:43:02.271Yeah, I mean all kinds of Jesuit.
00:43:03.940 -->
00:43:05.945The octopus surrounding the white house.
00:43:07.527 -->
00:43:08.911Exactly, exactly.
00:43:08.911 -->
00:43:10.032So, all right.
00:43:10.032 -->
00:43:13.981Well, here's what I'll say to wrap that segment up is you guys are winning.
00:43:13.981 -->
00:43:15.824Keep at it, keep going.
00:43:15.824 -->
00:43:18.050Keep having these disagreements online.
00:43:18.050 -->
00:43:38.487I know you think they're not having any fruit, because a lot of times people just want to win an argument but you never know who's looking in on that conversation you're having with somebody that god will use to send that person down the rabbit hole I want to add maybe one point to that, which is you know, I think now, and I think we're moving in this way we shouldn't also just be evangelizing Protestants.
00:43:38.606 -->
00:43:43.382Like there's a lot of other false religions in the world that we need to be reaching out to as well.
00:43:43.382 -->
00:43:52.400That's why, initially, when I set up my YouTube channel, my goal was to talk about like SCOTUS and stuff, stuff, but I'm shifting more to realizing like that's really interesting and stuff.
00:43:52.420 -->
00:43:54.108But it's sort of an interesting hobby for me.
00:43:54.108 -->
00:43:58.344I could be using the platform for bringing people to the church in the first place.
00:43:58.344 -->
00:44:09.585I'm hoping to put out apologetics material responding to judaism, because we don't really have good catholic resources responding to judaism because it's almost, on one hand, too afraid to talk about it.
00:44:09.585 -->
00:44:18.353On the other hand, they are right in a certain sense, that we tend to outsource a lot of our discussions of other religions to Protestants.
00:44:18.353 -->
00:44:23.168We expect Protestants to go speak to the Jews, go speak to the Muslims, go speak to the atheists.
00:44:23.168 -->
00:44:31.027Then one from a non-denominational church will talk to them and be like hey, they told you 90% of it, but they're missing one little bit at the end there, and 90% of it, but they're missing one little bit at the end there.
00:44:31.027 -->
00:44:36.793You know, and we need to be the ones going in the first place to a lot of these people and telling them about the Catholic church and about Christ from the very beginning.
00:44:37.335 -->
00:44:39.961The Catholic church is the one who received the great commission.
00:44:39.961 -->
00:44:43.172So it is our duty to convert the world, not just Protestants.
00:44:43.233 -->
00:44:45.322So we've we've talked about this a lot on our channel.
00:44:45.322 -->
00:44:47.445And we have to, we have to remember like there's.
00:44:47.445 -->
00:44:49.827There's two purposes for apologetics.
00:44:50.027 -->
00:45:21.702One is to bring others into the church, but the second is to strengthen those already in the church no-transcript, and suddenly you learn something new about your faith and you find a new argument that you can bring to the table.
00:45:21.702 -->
00:45:29.485So I think, I think all of it is good, I think we're, uh, we're we're causing a little bit of waves out there and it's uh, it's's a good thing.
00:45:29.485 -->
00:45:32.150So everybody, stay at it, all right.
00:45:32.150 -->
00:45:34.233So now I want to get into.
00:45:34.233 -->
00:45:40.724I want to get into discussing evolution a little bit, because it's been a long time since we had that conversation on this channel.
00:45:40.724 -->
00:45:46.260Rob and I Rob and I both were cradle Catholics.
00:45:46.260 -->
00:45:50.382We were both raised in an environment where we were taught no, no, no, science and faith work together.
00:45:50.382 -->
00:46:07.065So you're allowed to believe in evolution and both of us like no, I know I I don't want to speak for rob, but like I never even considered that evolution wasn't true, I just like something internally always told me like this story seems like nonsense I mean I was a.
00:46:07.746 -->
00:46:17.932I was full-blown, like you know, like an evolution apologist, especially against my at that point then, like non-denom slash baptist wife, who was creation.
00:46:17.932 -->
00:46:28.784So I had all the evolution arguments and we got in like our actual worst fights in our relationship were because of that, were because of evolution versus creation.
00:46:28.784 -->
00:46:32.893And now here I am 10 years later being like yep, you were right, sweetie.
00:46:33.760 -->
00:46:37.170Well, what happened with me was I dude.
00:46:37.170 -->
00:46:37.972It's very strange.
00:46:37.972 -->
00:46:54.228So first I saw your conversation on frad arguing with Jimmy Akin, right, and I and I watched that debate and you were talking about living tissue inside the the, in some of the dinosaur bones that they discovered and stuff like that.
00:46:54.228 -->
00:46:57.931So that was kind of like the first fissure that happens Right.
00:46:58.599 -->
00:47:08.800Then I watch the Graham Hancock series ancient apocalypse, and he starts going to all of these ancient sites where they have very similar structures.
00:47:08.800 -->
00:47:30.748So they have pyramids in South America, they have pyramids in Egypt, they have pyramids in South America, they have pyramids in Egypt, they have pyramids all over the world, right, and he's talking about this cataclysmic event that happened and you know he's trying to come up with a theory for why the pyramids look the same in South America, as they do in Egypt, as they do in all these other countries, in Egypt, as they do in all these other countries.
00:47:30.748 -->
00:47:48.831And it kind of just dawned on me like the gods are real, right, like demons are real, and the reason these structures look similar is because they're worshiping these demons and the demons required them to build structures like this for worship of some kind.
00:47:48.831 -->
00:48:00.884So that was like the way I was seeing that whole thing happen and one of the main things he discussed on that series was how every single ancient civilization had a creation myth.
00:48:00.884 -->
00:48:05.641Every single civilization that has ever existed in human history had a creation myth.
00:48:05.641 -->
00:48:13.514And it's like just slowly kind of unfolded to me how we had a creation myth.
00:48:13.981 -->
00:48:29.489Now people take issue with that word myth, but we have the Christian creation story that God gave us and then suddenly, once you get to the scientific era, they're presenting a new creation story and to me it just like it was like scales falling from my eyes.
00:48:29.489 -->
00:48:31.172Like this is nonsense.
00:48:31.172 -->
00:48:43.769They are presenting a new creation story that can replace God, like it's a creation story that exists, that doesn't need God to be its origins, so it's just the modern creation story.
00:48:43.769 -->
00:48:44.952So like what?
00:48:44.952 -->
00:48:46.181What is it that?
00:48:46.181 -->
00:48:50.231Because were you a young earth creationist as a Jew before you converted?
00:48:50.231 -->
00:48:53.201Or like how does your whole story come about?
00:48:53.724 -->
00:48:55.793no, I grew up believing in evolution and stuff.
00:48:55.793 -->
00:48:57.902You know, among liberal jews they all believe in evolution.
00:48:57.902 -->
00:49:04.664In the orthodox jewish world this is a big debated issue, actually because the jewish calendar dates from the time of creation.
00:49:04.664 -->
00:49:09.985So it's almost impossible to like be a jew and hold up your traditional calendar and not believe in creation.
00:49:09.985 -->
00:49:12.590So this is a big debate going going on now in the Orthodox.
00:49:12.650 -->
00:49:13.110Jewish world.
00:49:13.110 -->
00:49:15.583Does BC and the Jewish calendar mean before creation?
00:49:15.625 -->
00:49:45.436then yeah, so when I initially became a Christian, this to me was almost like well, initially, when I came into, as I mentioned, eastern Orthodoxy, one of the things that sort of helped me initially is I heard like oh, the Catholics and the Orthodox, they follow tradition and they look like they believe in evolution because they follow tradition rather than just the Bible.
00:49:45.436 -->
00:49:59.514So, coming in from a very atheist background because I was I really gave up religion as very early on, beyond, like as a ritual thing, and so it made it easy, you know, transitioning over from atheism to religion.
00:49:59.514 -->
00:50:06.489All right, I can still accept evolution, and so this is why I try not to push the point too much on people coming into the church, just because, like I know, this is a stumbling block.
00:50:06.489 -->
00:50:07.141It was for me.
00:50:07.141 -->
00:50:15.327But very quickly, upon actually reading the church fathers, I'm like, wait, all of these church fathers they believe in like young earth creation.
00:50:15.327 -->
00:50:21.250Like you constantly hear the refrain of oh, the church fathers didn't take Genesis literally and that's just not true.
00:50:21.250 -->
00:50:34.315Like you can just read the church fathers, st Augustine makes fun of the pagans for thinking the world is older than 6,000 years and everyone loves to jump on St Augustine, everyone loves origin, origin tried to explain how all the animals could fit on Noah's Ark.
00:50:34.315 -->
00:50:37.829So even the most allegorical of the church fathers took Genesis pretty much literally.
00:50:39.400 -->
00:50:43.445And around the same time I encountered an Eastern Orthodox YouTuber named Sarah from Hamilton.
00:50:43.445 -->
00:50:45.543If people are not aware of him excellent YouTube channel.
00:50:45.543 -->
00:50:46.467I highly recommend him.
00:50:46.467 -->
00:50:52.811He does videos on biblical theology and he is young Earth, but approached in an intelligent way.
00:50:52.811 -->
00:51:00.940What he would say is yeah, I accept that there's a lot of people who sort of push forward like crackpot arguments against evolution that don't really deal with the real science.
00:51:00.940 -->
00:51:01.240He says.
00:51:01.240 -->
00:51:02.820That's all fair, he says, but do you know?
00:51:02.820 -->
00:51:08.528They're also actual scientists who are young earth and so, for example, this is sort of the classic examples.
00:51:08.528 -->
00:51:11.108He's sort of the most famous is this guy Kurt Wise?
00:51:11.108 -->
00:51:12.742This is one of the classic examples.
00:51:12.742 -->
00:51:13.804He's one of the most famous is this guy Kurt Wise?
00:51:13.804 -->
00:51:19.068So he studied at Harvard under Stephen Jay Gould, who's one of the leading biologists in the world at the time, and he's a young earth creationist.
00:51:19.068 -->
00:51:31.025So if you can study at Harvard under like the leading expert in your field and still come away being a young earth creationist, that to me shows that there's not enough of the science to say, no, you cannot accept this.
00:51:31.025 -->
00:51:33.371I'm not going to say that the science proves the unearthed.
00:51:33.371 -->
00:51:42.929I'll say, all right, I think when you deal with the science, there's good reason to be agnostic about it and say, all right, I can understand how an evolutionist would interpret the data this way.
00:51:42.929 -->
00:51:45.481But here's why you might also interpret the data this way.
00:51:46.483 -->
00:51:54.521And I think the point you made about creation myths is so central, because this is a point that's often brought up.
00:51:54.521 -->
00:52:11.034People will draw parallels between, for example, the Enuma, elish and other ancient Near Eastern creation myths and the Book of Genesis, and they'll say all the Book of Genesis is doing is it's polemically responding to other surrounding Near Eastern creation myths.
00:52:11.034 -->
00:52:14.028But my question then always is how does it respond?
00:52:14.028 -->
00:52:15.907Because you can respond to something in many ways.
00:52:15.907 -->
00:52:19.625I mean, it doesn't merely point out issues in those stories, it gives its own story.
00:52:19.625 -->
00:52:26.188And then we now have a new creation myth today, which is evolution, and evolution is not a modern idea.
00:52:27.260 -->
00:52:30.150Lucretius in the ancient world is already talking about evolution.
00:52:30.150 -->
00:52:41.271There's also, I think, empedocles, if I remember correctly, talks about evolution, and Aristotle was aware of this, and Aristotle responds in the physics, and St Thomas Aquinas comments upon Aristotle's response to Empedocles.
00:52:41.271 -->
00:53:00.112So Thomas Aquinas was aware of evolution, he was aware of the arguments for it Not necessarily all the data we now have but he was aware of the general idea that, all right, you have things that have all sorts of random traits and the ones that are more well-adapted will survive.
00:53:00.112 -->
00:53:04.543And St Thomas puts forward arguments from metaphysics against this even being possible and Lucretius's work is actually lost completely.
00:53:04.623 -->
00:53:12.108He had the same basic idea that, all right, in the past there were these atoms floating around and the atoms went in all sorts of random ways and they collided with each other.
00:53:12.108 -->
00:53:21.025And because they collided with each other they made up all sorts of different animals, and that's why there's all these different monsters recorded in, like Greek myths, and the ones that were more fit.
00:53:21.025 -->
00:53:22.751They survived and they're around today.
00:53:22.751 -->
00:53:28.666So Lucretius's work was actually lost, like Saint Jerome and a few other church fathers are aware of it.
00:53:28.666 -->
00:53:35.014They respond, but it was lost, except for in one monastery, and this was actually rediscovered during the Renaissance.
00:53:35.014 -->
00:53:51.228And there's actually a like secular historian who argues that the rediscovery of this work is what led to the modern world, because now there was a new creation that people could latch onto that did not require my Genesis, and this work was very influential on Machiavelli.
00:53:51.228 -->
00:53:56.648It was influential on thomas hobbes, like all the major figures of um.
00:53:56.867 -->
00:53:59.554Modernity are aware of this work and are very influenced by.
00:53:59.760 -->
00:54:04.054If you look at hobbes right, hobbes inverts the genesis story.
00:54:04.134 -->
00:54:14.150He says no man starts out in a state of war, and hobbes's idea that man starts out in a state of war rather than starting in the garden, that is the foundation of all of modern political philosophy.
00:54:14.150 -->
00:54:37.202It's how do we move from this conflict, which is just natural to humanity, to a state in which the government is going to stop people from killing each other, rather than our view that no man was originally in harmony with each other and with God, and it is our sin that introduced division with one another, and so we need to find a way to overcome our sins so that we can live in harmony with one another and with God again.
00:54:37.202 -->
00:54:57.188These are two very competing visions of reality, and so, while there's a whole bunch of different ways you can take it whether you take it as capitalism, totalitarianism, communism however you want to take it all of them presuppose this new creation story, and so the only way we can overcome all of this is by returning to the real creation story that God revealed to Moses.
00:54:58.021 -->
00:55:00.688There's a reason God gave it to us, right, exactly.
00:55:00.688 -->
00:55:35.268There's a very like a real reason why God gave it to us, and it's not just allegory, it's the idea that, because I've even heard Catholics that I like say things like like the garden, like there was still animal death going on outside of the garden, like to me, when God says sin and death enter into the world through sin, I don't understand how evolution can make sense from that standpoint, because you're talking about millions and millions of years of death.
00:55:35.268 -->
00:55:41.251I've heard Catholics argue that animal death is not the same as spiritual death and that's why that can make sense.
00:55:43.121 -->
00:55:45.934Yeah, and there is people in the tradition who do limit that to just humans.
00:55:45.934 -->
00:55:49.324But people often focus on maybe this or that particular issue.
00:55:49.324 -->
00:55:52.128But the issue is you have to take the totality of it right.
00:55:52.128 -->
00:56:00.456So one of the things I often point out to people is hey, every church father, they took the genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11 as literal historical years.
00:56:00.456 -->
00:56:12.653Every ancient commentator, every medieval commentator, every Protestant commentator, every Jewish commentator, universally to a man, everyone in human history up until very recently, read those as literal years.
00:56:12.653 -->
00:56:25.349What basis do you now have in modern scholarship to say no, I don't think those are literal years, because usually what people will say is they'll say that the literal sense is what the author intends by it and not necessarily taking it literalistically.
00:56:25.349 -->
00:56:25.971And that's true.
00:56:25.971 -->
00:56:30.614But if every person ever reading it read the meaning of the text, is that way, that seems to me to be the meaning of the text.
00:56:30.614 -->
00:56:33.382Is that way that seems to me to be the meaning of the text then?
00:56:33.382 -->
00:56:36.331And no one's ever presented me a compelling argument otherwise.
00:56:36.780 -->
00:56:43.750I had a whole conversation about this with a theistic evolutionist theology professor and he said well, what about the Sumerian kings list?
00:56:43.750 -->
00:56:49.846The Sumerians have these long list of kings, and some of these kings are reigning for like 36,000 years and stuff.
00:56:49.846 -->
00:56:53.452And so I asked him what makes you think the Sumerians didn't take that literally?
00:56:53.452 -->
00:56:54.894And he said I never considered that.
00:56:54.894 -->
00:57:05.052So, a lot of these histories, they have their talking points that they have learned right and that they don't then consider what the other alternatives are to these sorts of things.
00:57:05.052 -->
00:57:22.693And so to me, once you accept as a basis that the literal sense of scripture has to be correct and that there's no other way to read these biblical passages, that everyone has always read them, not only just the literal sense, we also take as binding the consensus of the fathers in reading scripture.
00:57:22.693 -->
00:57:25.409Well, this is the very clear consensus of the fathers.
00:57:25.409 -->
00:57:27.166Like, how do you get around these sorts of things?
00:57:28.980 -->
00:57:29.545the things Also you get into.
00:57:29.545 -->
00:57:52.543If you're going to start saying that the story of creation is allegory, well, that's why you ended up in your synagogue, before you converted, with your rabbi saying Exodus never happened, right, because if the creation story doesn't happen, then maybe Abraham doesn't exist and maybe that's just an allegory, and maybe Moses never really marched the Israelites through the desert either.
00:57:52.543 -->
00:57:55.893Maybe the the Red Sea was never part of it, like all of it becomes out.
00:57:55.893 -->
00:58:04.447So once you get rid of that main component, you actually start to disbelieve the rest of the story of scripture and think all of it's just allegory.
00:58:05.068 -->
00:58:05.550Absolutely.
00:58:05.550 -->
00:58:14.925And what you'll often see is people say, right, genesis 1 to 11 can be bracketed off from the rest of Genesis and they'll say Abraham is our first real historical aspect.
00:58:14.925 -->
00:58:17.949But Abraham doesn't first appear in Genesis 12.
00:58:17.949 -->
00:58:19.610He appears in Genesis 11.
00:58:19.610 -->
00:58:26.916We hear of Abraham's origins in Genesis 11 as part of a genealogy which stretches back to Noah.
00:58:26.916 -->
00:58:35.570So you can't easily break up Noah from Abraham because you get that genealogy connecting everything.
00:58:35.570 -->
00:58:44.081And then when the new testament, right, wants to go and give the genealogy of jesus in the gospel of luke, he just continues on back from abraham all the way back to adam, taking these as real generations.
00:58:44.623 -->
00:58:51.302Now the response you might get here is that some people will say that there can be gaps in jew Jewish genealogies.
00:58:51.302 -->
00:58:57.007It's unquestionable whether or not that's true, but the reason that they'll usually say this is in the Gospel of Matthew.
00:58:57.007 -->
00:58:59.230There's a few spots where he skips generations.
00:58:59.230 -->
00:59:00.331Now I think he's intentional.
00:59:00.331 -->
00:59:05.956In scripting generations there are things that have to do with lines being cursed, but let's say that principle works right.
00:59:05.956 -->
00:59:15.505What we get is that we get not only the person who is their child, we get the year at which that child was born.
00:59:15.505 -->
00:59:18.231So we get an interlocking set of genealogies stretching from Adam to Abraham.
00:59:18.672 -->
00:59:25.402And if we then accept Abraham forward as historical, you can't get more than a few thousand years back to Adam from Abraham.
00:59:25.402 -->
00:59:37.083And once you accept, even if you then want to say, all right, maybe we'll accept a young Adam, we'll accept an old world, well, all the same methods that we use to date an old world are what we use to date humanity as like a hundred thousand years old.
00:59:37.083 -->
00:59:45.967So there's no way you can accept geologically a young humanity without basically throwing a wrench in everything else.
00:59:45.967 -->
00:59:48.561And then we also have the issue as well of Noah's Ark.
00:59:48.561 -->
00:59:52.960Right, and Noah's Ark is really important, that it's a global flood.
00:59:52.960 -->
00:59:54.704Because turn to the New Testament.
00:59:54.704 -->
01:00:02.030Of the two letters of St Peter, I mean, he compares the second coming to Noah's Ark and he says he says you actually want to read the passage.
01:00:02.030 -->
01:00:03.302This is such a great passage.
01:00:03.302 -->
01:00:05.686Let me see if I can find it.
01:00:08.672 -->
01:00:10.983Well, while you're looking, I'll even I'll jump in and I'll fill it.
01:00:11.043 -->
01:00:18.038I'll fill some yeah, so the the, the same scientists that are telling you the word the world is a billion years old.
01:00:18.038 -->
01:00:21.434Five billion years old, like they just throw these numbers out and you're supposed to just go.
01:00:21.434 -->
01:00:22.661Oh yes, five billion years old.
01:00:22.661 -->
01:00:24.891It's like it's just such an astronomical number.
01:00:24.891 -->
01:00:28.585But those same scientists that are telling you that are the same ones that told you to get the shot.
01:00:28.585 -->
01:00:29.889They're the same ones telling you a guy in a dress is a girl.
01:00:29.889 -->
01:00:31.034They're the same ones that told you to get the shot.
01:00:31.034 -->
01:00:32.318They're the same ones telling you a guy in a dress is a girl.
01:00:32.318 -->
01:00:33.119They're the same ones telling you.
01:00:33.119 -->
01:00:40.811They're the ones telling you that the world is heating up because of carbon emissions, things like that.
01:00:40.811 -->
01:00:43.206The cows, the cow farts.
01:00:44.820 -->
01:00:48.170There's clearly an agenda behind science, right?
01:00:48.170 -->
01:00:48.400So?
01:00:48.400 -->
01:00:57.275And even to when you get a secular guy like Graham Hancock showing that there was this worldwide cataclysmic event, and they call it the Younger Dryas.
01:00:57.275 -->
01:01:07.009They come up with a whole bunch of different names for it, but to me it's quite clear there was a worldwide flood and all of humanity was wiped out at this worldwide flood.
01:01:07.068 -->
01:01:11.072It's just anytime you go up against their narrative, because that's what their science is.
01:01:11.072 -->
01:01:11.463It's a narrative.
01:01:11.463 -->
01:01:12.376It's just anytime you go up against their narrative, because that's what their science is.
01:01:12.376 -->
01:01:15.605It's a narrative, it's not genuine science.
01:01:15.605 -->
01:01:16.927Where there you know there is.
01:01:16.927 -->
01:01:22.315There obviously is a way that science can be done and things can be, can be worked through.
01:01:22.315 -->
01:01:34.815But when they're talking about an entire narrative that gets set forth by their scientific thesis, you're talking about on like upending an entire structure that they have put in and they don't like it.
01:01:34.815 -->
01:01:41.146So if you start trying to say the biblical flood happened now, you're actually giving credence to the Genesis story and they lose their mind.
01:01:41.146 -->
01:01:41.768So go ahead.
01:01:41.768 -->
01:01:42.230You can read that.
01:01:42.320 -->
01:01:43.445I want to read this section.
01:01:43.445 -->
01:01:45.173This is from 2 Peter 3.
01:01:45.173 -->
01:01:47.041This is just so relevant to our day.
01:01:47.041 -->
01:01:50.090This is like a prophecy from St Peter of our time, like right now.
01:01:50.090 -->
01:01:50.940This is really clear.
01:01:52.184 -->
01:02:05.387First of all, you must understand this that scoffers will come in the last day with scoffing, following their own passions, and saying where is the promise of his coming?
01:02:05.387 -->
01:02:07.940For ever since our fathers fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning of creation.
01:02:07.940 -->
01:02:20.626They deliberately ignore this fact that, by the word of God, the heavens existed long ago and an earth formed out of water and by means of water, through which that world that then existed was deluged with water and perish.
01:02:20.626 -->
01:02:29.603But by the same word, the heavens and the earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and the destruction of ungodly men.
01:02:29.603 -->
01:02:41.469So St Peter is telling us right there that in the last days, there's going to be people who come along and make fun of the second coming of Christ on the basis that, hey, everything just continues through natural processes.
01:02:41.530 -->
01:02:45.369We don't need to explain how the world came to be.
01:02:45.369 -->
01:02:49.903And he says they deliberately ignore the fact of what the creation and the global flood.
01:02:49.903 -->
01:02:56.668Now, if it was just a local flood, right, that's not something that they deny, like atheists say, yeah, there was lots of local floods.
01:02:56.668 -->
01:03:02.347I've heard plenty of atheists say, yeah, there was probably a local flood in the ancient Near East and that's what inspired the biblical story.
01:03:02.347 -->
01:03:03.885That's not denied by anyone.
01:03:03.885 -->
01:03:09.471What's denied has to be something that cannot be explained by the ordinary workings of the world.
01:03:10.273 -->
01:03:15.402Yeah, and explained by the ordinary workings of the world.
01:03:15.402 -->
01:03:18.311Yeah, and even what he says about things do not change right, like when you understand how evolutionary philosophy works.
01:03:18.311 -->
01:03:37.925They'll go and they'll find something, and they date it by where it is in the layers of the earth, as if the earth has gone through the same process over billions of years, and you can actually calculate exactly how old this thing is because of how many layers are in there.
01:03:37.925 -->
01:03:48.047What a fricking global flood would throw those layers completely out of whack, and there's no way you could ever calculate something's age If that event actually did happen.
01:03:51.998 -->
01:03:56.143Yeah, yeah, I'll also add on that St Peter passage as well.
01:03:56.143 -->
01:03:59.753I was thinking now in 1 Peter, was it?
01:03:59.753 -->
01:04:08.407St Peter uses this idea of everyone on the Ark was saved and everyone outside the Ark wasn't saved to defend extra ecclesiae omnola solis.
01:04:08.407 -->
01:04:13.583So if you, this analogy doesn't work if there was a bunch of areas that weren't flooded either?
01:04:15.009 -->
01:04:17.014well, the text in in self in genesis.
01:04:17.014 -->
01:04:28.431The text in genesis makes no sense if it's just a global or, excuse me, if it's just a local flood, because the text is very clear that it says and all the high hills were covered eight cubits and upward.
01:04:28.431 -->
01:04:34.284So it gives you an exact measurement and tells you all the high hills of the earth were covered by this amount of water.
01:04:34.284 -->
01:04:46.673Yeah, so it's like how do you have every all the mountains covered in one local area upwards of eight cubits, but then it just doesn't happen to spill over everywhere else I also asked theistic evolution.
01:04:46.713 -->
01:04:48.661So sorry, let's say it was a local flood right.
01:04:48.661 -->
01:04:53.054Can you explain to me how you would have written the text of genesis if it was a local flood right?
01:04:53.054 -->
01:04:55.179Can you explain to me how you would have written the text of Genesis if it was a global flood Right?
01:04:55.179 -->
01:04:58.449Because, let's say we said the entire globe was covered?
01:04:58.449 -->
01:05:01.329They would say, oh see, it's just a hyperbole there.
01:05:01.329 -->
01:05:05.208There's literally no possible language the text of Genesis could have used.
01:05:05.208 -->
01:05:07.393That couldn't be explained away.
01:05:08.740 -->
01:05:50.012Look, the thing is because Rob and I were talking about this earlier, like I was kind of excited to talk about this tonight because we did do this with our audience on our show live, like this was several episodes we dove into this stuff with keel owens and yeah, we, yeah, we interviewed pam acker like we had it was like several episodes that we went through this Right, but at the time we only had about six, five, 6,000 subscribers and I know a lot of the people that just recently subscribed, like Rob and I just hit 25,000 subscribers last night and we've gotten about 10,000 subscribers over the last two months and a majority of them were through our video.
01:05:50.012 -->
01:05:57.206Um of them were through our video disputing Protestantism right.
01:05:57.206 -->
01:06:01.943And when you look at the other channels that watch our show now you see guys like Trent Horn, jimmy Akin, so you're seeing a lot.
01:06:01.943 -->
01:06:04.554You're seeing a much different audience watching our show now.
01:06:04.554 -->
01:06:20.313So I thought it would be good to have this conversation to just kind of maybe have out like some of the people who were raised like Rob and I, where we just assumed evolution was true, because that's kind of maybe have out like some of the people who were raised like rob and I where we just assumed evolution was true, because that's kind of the the catholic apologist line is kind of just like no, no faith and reason go together.
01:06:20.313 -->
01:06:21.659They can never contradict each other.
01:06:21.659 -->
01:06:35.164Don't worry, we believe in evolution without ever giving a, because if you, if you understand how they present evolution, it is presented as all life comes from a single-celled organism and it just slowly goes from there.
01:06:35.164 -->
01:06:42.195There is no coherent Catholic way to explain that.
01:06:42.619 -->
01:06:47.581Even if you say no, god had his hand in it, their way of saying it is just well, god just made this happen.
01:06:47.581 -->
01:06:48.940The time doesn't add up.
01:06:48.940 -->
01:06:50.882There's not nearly enough time.
01:06:50.882 -->
01:06:53.344There's too many miracles that would have to occur.
01:06:54.125 -->
01:07:15.278And if you go back and you watch even a documentary on the creation of the earth from like Amazon prime or something, you'll see the giant leaps, like it starts as a single cell and then the next thing you know, there's algae on the shore and then and it's like wait a minute, what, how?
01:07:15.278 -->
01:07:19.005How does a single cell become like a multi-cell?
01:07:19.005 -->
01:07:19.989Like how does that happen?
01:07:19.989 -->
01:07:21.192None of these things make sense.
01:07:21.192 -->
01:07:28.920It just they expect you to just believe magic happened instead of just believing the actual like.
01:07:28.920 -->
01:07:39.081It's more difficult for me to believe that than it is for me to believe that God said let there be light and just brings creation into existence in one shot.
01:07:39.081 -->
01:07:58.344So I'm hoping that some of the newer people that are watching that kind of grew up like Rob and I are like okay, maybe, maybe I shouldn't just trust this thing that I've been fed my entire life because every single atheist, communist civilization that ever existed in the past couple of hundred years had evolution, as taught in their schools, because there's a reason for it.
01:07:58.344 -->
01:07:59.547You can have it without.
01:07:59.688 -->
01:08:06.028You can have life without God plus everything else we've been taught has been proven to be wrong anyways, yeah.
01:08:06.248 -->
01:08:10.867I think people are a lot more receptive to this discussion post 2020 than before 2020.
01:08:10.867 -->
01:08:15.106Like before 2020, I could not have a conversation with people about this.
01:08:15.106 -->
01:08:17.072Now everyone wants to talk to me about this.
01:08:17.072 -->
01:08:20.110Yeah, like the landscape has just completely shifted.
01:08:20.693 -->
01:08:22.902Well, you said that at the conference that you're doing.
01:08:22.902 -->
01:08:26.819So, yeah guys, june 6th through 8th Steubenville, there's going to be a conference.
01:08:26.819 -->
01:08:27.600What's the name of the conference?
01:08:27.600 -->
01:08:27.940Gideon?
01:08:28.322 -->
01:08:31.685Yeah, if you look, go in the link in the description.
01:08:31.685 -->
01:08:33.405It's here we go.
01:08:33.405 -->
01:08:39.652It's Symposium on the Theology of Creation 2025, an Exploration of Creation as God's Temple.
01:08:39.652 -->
01:08:41.193This is like awesome conference.
01:08:41.193 -->
01:08:45.117We have Scott Hahn, we have John Bergsma, we have Father Thomas Crean.
01:08:45.117 -->
01:08:51.326We're going to be having a retreat on that Sunday with Father Thomas Crean in the Dominican Rite.
01:08:51.326 -->
01:08:54.612We also have a Byzantine Rite priest there to do Vespers the night before.
01:08:54.612 -->
01:08:59.872This is going to be it's going to be an awesome debate on whether or not Adam's sin caused the death of animals.
01:08:59.872 -->
01:09:01.685Like this is going to be a great discussion.
01:09:01.685 -->
01:09:03.088As I mentioned earlier.
01:09:03.088 -->
01:09:03.631Like this is not.
01:09:03.631 -->
01:09:05.426That's like the Unearthed Conference.
01:09:05.426 -->
01:09:05.927Like this is.
01:09:05.927 -->
01:09:12.391We want to return to an actual theological discussion on creation and then we can get into discussions of the science and so on.
01:09:12.391 -->
01:09:12.631You know.
01:09:12.932 -->
01:09:15.234Well, that's what I'm kind of interested in.
01:09:15.234 -->
01:09:18.695So you guys are going to discuss the theology of creation, right?
01:09:18.695 -->
01:09:24.671Because that sounds so awesome to me, Like I've never really gotten into a theology of creation.
01:09:25.134 -->
01:09:35.819Yeah, and this is because I think this is an important question, right, but this is supposed to be one little tiny question in a whole, like larger system, right, and as we mentioned at the beginning, right of this evangelicalism.
01:09:35.819 -->
01:09:38.689That's really like theologically watered down.
01:09:38.689 -->
01:09:45.309I think the reason this issue became so heated in the Protestant world is this was their entire theology of creation.
01:09:45.309 -->
01:09:47.483Like it was all right, do you believe in evolution or not?
01:09:47.483 -->
01:09:57.077All right, but that's for us one question in like 100 questions, you know, like if you look at the sumo, like half of the prima pars is on creation, how exactly, like it's a.
01:09:57.077 -->
01:10:01.694It's, honestly, the issue of how does god even create in the first place?
01:10:01.694 -->
01:10:07.899Like how is that metaphysically possible, is actually, I think, a much more difficult question to answer than this evolution one.
01:10:07.899 -->
01:10:12.750Like there are much richer questions that we can be answering.
01:10:13.692 -->
01:10:16.805And then my point I offer all of these discussions with theistic evolutionists.
01:10:16.805 -->
01:10:18.565They'll come to our conferences and stuff.
01:10:18.565 -->
01:10:19.248They're great people.
01:10:19.248 -->
01:10:21.925I have many theologian friends that are theistic evolutionists.
01:10:21.925 -->
01:10:28.222I'll say, all right, you know you guys will dive into the texts of St Thomas really carefully to like this or that tiny little issue.
01:10:28.222 -->
01:10:31.088But like this is a like he believed this.
01:10:31.088 -->
01:10:33.052Why are you so dismissive of this point?
01:10:33.052 -->
01:10:39.689Because a lot of the theistic evolutionists it's not that merely they disagree, it's that they're often very dismissive of our field.
01:10:40.862 -->
01:10:42.470I want to say something to these discussions.
01:10:42.470 -->
01:10:49.891Yeah, I want to say something to Rob Rotterdam we better really be sure we know our stuff, because most people are not going to accept this.
01:10:49.891 -->
01:10:58.261If this is essential, it will be a stumbling block, okay.
01:10:58.261 -->
01:11:00.204So my, my point in this is not to convince people of uh, young earth creation, even my.
01:11:00.204 -->
01:11:07.742My main goal in this is to get catholics to stop believing the, the, the new creation myth like.
01:11:08.023 -->
01:11:12.092God gave us a creation story and he gave it to us for a reason.
01:11:12.092 -->
01:11:16.011And the atheists are trying to feed you a different creation story.
01:11:16.011 -->
01:11:19.569There's an agenda behind theirs and there's an agenda behind God's.
01:11:19.569 -->
01:11:21.507Whose story do you want to follow?
01:11:21.507 -->
01:11:26.251I'm not saying that Catholics should be arguing with scientists about this.
01:11:26.251 -->
01:11:30.085I'm saying don't pay attention to it, like it should mean nothing to you.
01:11:30.085 -->
01:11:32.780The, the evolution story there's, there's all.
01:11:32.780 -->
01:11:40.845The only reason you should want a creation myth like that is because you want to explain the way the world works without the existence of God, and you don't need that.
01:11:40.845 -->
01:11:46.067So there's some cool things you can learn about science, but for the most part, just take the story God gave us.
01:11:46.067 -->
01:11:47.322He gave it to us for a reason.
01:11:48.243 -->
01:11:54.908And also don't play the game of trying to debate the science with them, Like that's always the game they want to play, right, they want to bring it back to science.
01:11:54.908 -->
01:12:00.193Then we're debating the science with them and what I always tell them is I say, hey, I'm not a scientist and you're not a scientist.
01:12:00.193 -->
01:12:05.440Why would either of us be, like, have the ability to evaluate this?
01:12:05.440 -->
01:12:10.210You know, and even if I'm discussing with a scientist, I'll say I'm sure you know the science way way better than I do.
01:12:10.210 -->
01:12:17.630Like I'm sure you could destroy me in a debate about the science of evolution, but, like I also have scientist friends who believe in young earth creation.
01:12:17.630 -->
01:12:20.581So I know you can be a scientist and believe in either one.
01:12:20.581 -->
01:12:23.645So how can I, as a non-scientist, evaluate it?
01:12:23.645 -->
01:12:28.934What I am is a theology student, and so that's the approach that I have to take because, I don't have another option.
01:12:29.314 -->
01:12:30.556That's a great way to go about it.
01:12:30.556 -->
01:12:33.645Aaron Gorn, our resident Protestant who watches our show.
01:12:33.645 -->
01:12:42.126Sorry, rob, our resident Protestant who watches our show is quoting the Catholic Catechism yeah, but it's total Thomistic victory.
01:12:42.126 -->
01:12:52.721The Church's Magisterium as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and tradition teaches that death entered the world on account of man's sin.
01:12:52.721 -->
01:12:54.829Thank you, aaron, we will need you.
01:12:54.829 -->
01:12:57.260Uh, maybe we should get aaron on uh trivia.
01:12:57.260 -->
01:13:00.225Get aaron on for catholic trivia.
01:13:00.266 -->
01:13:05.042See how well he knows this question is he gonna be uh on the convert team at that point?
01:13:05.061 -->
01:13:09.827yeah, I don't think there's a third team All right.
01:13:09.846 -->
01:13:17.935so, guys, if you are interested, june 6th through 8th in Steubenville Ohio, go and check out that conference.
01:13:17.935 -->
01:13:23.867Man that seems like a really good conference.
01:13:23.867 -->
01:13:26.693We do have a couple of questions for you on evolution or on creationism.
01:13:27.279 -->
01:13:35.131So, from Aaron, actually are you aware of any partnerships between Catholic creation ministries and Protestant Creation Ministries?
01:13:36.520 -->
01:13:40.051So, from the Catholic side, I don't know the inner workings of the Colby Center.
01:13:40.051 -->
01:13:43.871I'm friends with them and stuff, but I don't know their inner workings so I can't comment on that at all.
01:13:43.871 -->
01:13:50.233I will say that there is a Protestant Creation Scientist, a pretty well-known one, that I'm friends with.
01:13:50.233 -->
01:13:53.569He actually came to an event we did in Rome.
01:13:53.569 -->
01:13:55.386I don't think I can name him, unfortunately.
01:13:55.386 -->
01:13:56.605He came to our event in Rome.
01:13:56.605 -->
01:14:06.211We went to the Latin mass together, we toured, like all these cathedrals in Rome and in the Vatican and stuff, and I think he's very close to coming home to the Catholic church.
01:14:06.211 -->
01:14:29.270But it's hard if you've dedicated like he's an older guy, he's dedicated his life to trying to scientifically show creation and now he wants to like walk into a church where instead of he's being invited around everywhere to give talks on this, he's instead of coming into a place where his own hierarchy is going to be hostile to him, you know, and that's probably a hard step to take anything else with family concerns and so on.
01:14:29.270 -->
01:14:55.033But I do know, I think, that there are definitely people in the Protestant creation world who are encountering this Catholic apologetics all the same, and this is, I think, actually an important reason that we need to make it clear that even if it's what is it like, not a dogmatic issue that there like not a dogmatic issue, that's not a dogmatic issue, then right.
01:14:55.033 -->
01:15:06.320So Catholic answers, I think, always really emphasize no, you don't have to believe in creation, in young earth creation, so that the way they could try to bring over atheists or maybe Protestants who are theistic, evolutionists.
01:15:06.320 -->
01:15:18.951But there's a lot of Protestants who are young earth, right, there are a lot of um, there's a lot of Eastern Orthodox who are young earth, a lot of, as I mentioned, a lot of Jews are young earth, right.
01:15:18.951 -->
01:15:20.729How does it feel when we go to them?
01:15:20.729 -->
01:15:51.733Like, as an example I mentioned, I had that discussion recently with that rabbi Um, he's been sort of diving into learning, watching Christian, christian YouTube and stuff, uh, during COVID, because he was stuck at home and there's not much on Jewish YouTube and he, as I say, he was shocked what most Christians believe about the Bible, because I mean, it is like dogma in Judaism, like Isaiah wrote all of Isaiah, that, like Moses wrote the whole Pentateuch, and then he's coming in like our own, like scholars are saying no, no, no, that's not true at all.
01:15:51.840 -->
01:15:57.671Like they are scandalized by that, and so we need to make it clear no, you don't have to believe any of that.
01:15:57.671 -->
01:15:58.581Maybe it's not dogma.
01:15:58.581 -->
01:16:02.970We can discuss what's dogmatic, what's not dogmatic, but it's clearly not.
01:16:02.970 -->
01:16:08.347You're not a heretic if you believe in young earth and actually you're going with the general tradition.
01:16:08.347 -->
01:16:14.411So I think that we need to make that clear to people, because this is probably a stumbling block for a lot of people.
01:16:14.411 -->
01:16:34.851And actually, as I mentioned, I went to Eastern Orthodox before I finally came into the Catholic Church and I was convinced of young earth when I was Eastern Orthodox and this was a stumbling block for me, like seeing the fact that you could be Catholic and believe in a young earth really did help me come over to the Catholic Church, and so I know for people this is a stumbling block.
01:16:34.851 -->
01:16:35.676Catholic answers.
01:16:35.716 -->
01:16:40.274You could believe in young earth creation, but you shouldn't, because it's stupid and will ruin catholicism.
01:16:40.274 -->
01:16:44.546Basically their, their company pretty much their position um we got.
01:16:44.546 -->
01:16:45.228We got a few more.
01:16:45.287 -->
01:16:47.613Rob god yep, um, let's see here.
01:16:47.613 -->
01:16:58.414So I know you said you don't like to argue the science, but what do you say when someone brings up the like billions of light years argument as to the age of the universe and such?
01:16:58.979 -->
01:17:14.421Yes, I'll bring up sort of two answers that have been given, and there's one put out by Jason Lyle, which kind of sounds like cope but technically works, which is that because of relativity, we cannot actually measure the two-way speed of the one-way speed of light.
01:17:14.421 -->
01:17:28.779So what we do is we assume that the speed of light is equal in all directions and then we assume all right, so if we measure, if you shoot a beam of light front to a mirror and then bounce it back, and then you divide that in half, and so that's what we'll assume is the speed of light.
01:17:28.779 -->
01:17:45.051But the issue is we don't actually know that because because of time dilation, if you take a clock and you bring it over to the other side so that you can measure the one way, speed of light have been different, and so it's actually impossible to make a measurement.
01:17:45.051 -->
01:17:59.449So it could very well be that the speed of light is actually instantaneous, coming in towards earth and twice the length going out to the planets.
01:17:59.449 -->
01:18:04.636That would actually be all our calculations and everything would be identical and it would solve it.
01:18:04.778 -->
01:18:08.335The other way which I'm more inclined to is this guy, russell Humphreys.
01:18:08.335 -->
01:18:30.426He's this Protestant astrophysicist or something who's come up with this whole complex cosmology that actually factors in, like certain things that lead to Big Bang Theory, and has this whole cosmology that would work where essentially again because of relativity, with an expanding universe, during the days of creation the clocks would be running faster towards the edge of the universe.
01:18:30.426 -->
01:18:36.826So it might very well be that if you were standing at the edge of the universe it would measure something like 14 billion years have passed.
01:18:36.826 -->
01:18:48.768But what's important in scripture is the amount of time that's passed here on earth, and so it would just be that like only a few thousand years have passed here on earth, but it could be much more time has passed somewhere else in the universe because of relativity.
01:18:48.768 -->
01:18:51.873And so those are sort of the two ways that I've seen to deal with it.
01:18:52.460 -->
01:18:55.587Probably the answer, honestly, is a third way that we have not yet figured out.
01:18:55.587 -->
01:19:03.930Like even Humphreys has gone through like three or four different models now, because people keep pointing out holes in his model, and then he'll go back and he'll fix it, and that's how science works, right?
01:19:03.930 -->
01:19:08.006Science works.
01:19:08.006 -->
01:19:09.948You try to come up it, then you go back to the drawing board.
01:19:09.948 -->
01:19:17.948So I think we probably just haven't solved this one yet, but those are sort of the two main ones that go around, and what this shows to me, though, is that this is not unresolvable.
01:19:17.948 -->
01:19:20.743Right, people can bring up all sorts of objections.
01:19:20.743 -->
01:19:38.143We might have an answer, we might not, but the question is, is it unresolvable Because mainstream science right, they have like millions of scientists with the grant money from like every major government in the world and like every major nonprofit and billionaire in the world working around the clock to solve this thing.
01:19:38.304 -->
01:19:43.503We have what like two or three dozen scientists, like some of them don't even have like PhDs.
01:19:43.503 -->
01:19:44.426They can't get funding.
01:19:44.426 -->
01:19:47.103And then they also have like almost no funding for their research.
01:19:47.103 -->
01:19:51.123Like we're funded by, like homeschool moms and stuff, who are like giving some extra money away.
01:19:51.123 -->
01:19:56.786So, like, why would you think that the creation scientists are going to have as good answers as the evolutionists?
01:19:56.786 -->
01:20:00.180They don't have the funding and the number of people to answer things as quickly.
01:20:00.180 -->
01:20:03.288It's amazing how much they have been able to answer.
01:20:03.329 -->
01:20:04.292This is what gives me faith.
01:20:04.292 -->
01:20:10.511Is that really the modern creation science movement actually really starts in the 1990s?
01:20:10.511 -->
01:20:20.394It's a great book on this by this guy, paul Garner, called the New Creationism, where he basically says the first wave of creationism was essentially just trying to debunk evolution.
01:20:20.394 -->
01:20:22.021Then there was a second wave that started in the 90s.
01:20:22.021 -->
01:20:27.483Of all right, if we don't agree with their model, how do we actually explain the data within our own model?
01:20:27.483 -->
01:20:30.734And so this movement really started in the 1990s.
01:20:30.734 -->
01:20:39.050So, given that there's been like 30 years and like two or three dozen scientists like working on this with almost no funding, it's amazing just how much they've been able to solve.
01:20:39.832 -->
01:20:45.939Yeah, If you guys, if you guys, well, first you should donate to Rob and I, but if you don't donate to Rob and I, donate to the Colby center.
01:20:45.939 -->
01:20:48.944They're a good they're a good outfit.
01:20:48.944 -->
01:20:51.248I like this one because I've heard Protestants say this.
01:20:51.248 -->
01:20:55.654I've heard Alistair Begg say this that God antiqued things.
01:20:56.461 -->
01:21:00.832Well, kind of like how Adam would have been created as an adult, for instance.
01:21:02.784 -->
01:21:04.029I don't know what Gideon's going to say.
01:21:04.029 -->
01:21:05.886I don't think that's the case.
01:21:05.886 -->
01:21:07.506I think that you're being lied to.
01:21:07.506 -->
01:21:11.331I don't think that God tricked us to think the world was older.
01:21:11.331 -->
01:21:15.868I think they're reading the science incorrectly and they're lying about some of their conclusions.
01:21:16.810 -->
01:21:23.323I think this works a little bit, but not really, because the issue is, when we dig down there, we get like dinosaur bones and stuff like that.
01:21:23.323 -->
01:21:31.231Or when we look out at the stars, we see occasionally like a star explode and stuff like that, Like it's not, like we're seeing a sort of static picture when we dig down.
01:21:31.231 -->
01:21:39.944We're seeing a more dynamic picture when we dig down or look outwards, which suggests to me that there's something that really it looks like we're seeing events that happened.
01:21:39.944 -->
01:22:04.007However you want to explain those events, it looks like we're seeing events that happened Because it would be one thing right If Adam created the world and then he walked out and he saw the Grand Canyon and there was like no fossils or anything and it was just a canyon, and then an atheist might come along and say this formed over millions of years, but all right, but God wanted to make a canyon because it's cool, you know, versus when we actually find evidence like things are happening here, that seems to me to pose a bit more of a problem.
01:22:06.841 -->
01:22:08.064So wait you're, you're agreeing.
01:22:08.064 -->
01:22:09.368God didn't antique things.
01:22:09.368 -->
01:22:10.490Yeah, I don't think he antiques.
01:22:13.680 -->
01:22:13.917I so wait, you're agreeing?
01:22:13.917 -->
01:22:14.176God didn't antique things?
01:22:14.176 -->
01:22:14.476Yeah, I don't think he antiqued things.
01:22:14.476 -->
01:22:16.746I do think, though, what I do think is important here is that it's actually a more complicated issue, right?
01:22:16.746 -->
01:22:20.646Because let's say God did antique things, how would that look different from now?
01:22:20.646 -->
01:22:23.664It's actually a more difficult issue than people give credit to.
01:22:23.664 -->
01:22:24.621Like.
01:22:24.621 -->
01:22:26.448I think you do have to seriously think.
01:22:26.448 -->
01:22:33.412What is reasonably a first state that God would have made Like a canyon right is reasonably a first state that God would have made, Like a canyon right, as mentioned, would have formed over millions of years ordinarily.
01:22:33.412 -->
01:22:35.435But like?
01:22:35.435 -->
01:22:41.788Could God not have created a canyon just because someone would have come along and said, oh, God would be tricking us if it didn't form over millions of years?
01:22:42.720 -->
01:22:47.247Well, also, I think the Great Flood could have formed that canyon Exactly.
01:22:47.247 -->
01:22:47.859Yeah, that's what I think.
01:22:47.859 -->
01:22:53.533I just think that I think all of these crazy earth anomalies you see are probably products of the flood.
01:22:54.060 -->
01:22:57.979Yeah, I mentioned Kurt Weiserling, sort of this whole new movement of the new creationism.
01:22:57.979 -->
01:23:05.881Something they point out is if you have a global flood like that for 11 months, the scripture describes things aren't just going to calm down immediately Like there's going.
01:23:05.881 -->
01:23:10.979They predict that was under 2000 years for the world to calm down Right.
01:23:10.979 -->
01:23:13.027Predict it would take like a thousand or two thousand years for the world to calm down, right.
01:23:13.027 -->
01:23:22.585Yeah, and this is why, like early on in scripture, they'll be go like like they go and hang around the dead sea and stuff and it's like a nice area to hang out in, like versus now if you go to the dead sea today like nothing lives there.
01:23:22.585 -->
01:23:31.342That's why it's called the dead sea like clearly, the geography they're describing it seems to be different than the geography we now have, which is something interesting to take account of.
01:23:31.363 -->
01:23:34.189And and just a slight 2000 year period too.
01:23:34.189 -->
01:23:35.813It's not like, yeah, yeah.
01:23:36.421 -->
01:23:44.911Like there was this one guy who created a model for the ice age I think his name is Michael Oward and he found that basically, you could have the ice age happen in 700 years.
01:23:45.211 -->
01:23:45.372Yeah.
01:23:46.161 -->
01:23:46.621And so it would be.
01:23:46.621 -->
01:23:52.972One ice age was sort of multiple comings and goings of the ice age, rather than multiple distinct ice ages Not actually perfectly fits.
01:23:52.972 -->
01:24:11.488And not only that, he did some sort of weather models, like with the global flood, and actually found that, because of the higher temperatures during the flood, when higher temperatures go down, the Earth tends to sort of swing around the other way then, and so actually an ice age is exactly what we would predict would happen after a global flood.
01:24:11.488 -->
01:24:15.271Yeah, alright way then, and so actually an ice age is exactly what we would predict would happen after a global flood.
01:24:15.271 -->
01:24:27.190Yeah, um, all right, uh, I got a couple more all right, let's go through them quick, because I want to get over to the other side so todd is wondering what your thoughts are on the maseratic versus septuagint timeline um, yeah yeah, yeah
01:24:27.211 -->
01:24:28.613the septuagint timeline, as he mentioned.
01:24:28.613 -->
01:24:32.310It makes it makes it a bit easier to fit in the data and stuff like that.
01:24:32.310 -->
01:24:36.369I will say I do find the Masoretic timeline like sort of cool.
01:24:36.369 -->
01:24:48.908Like it sort of breaks up history neatly until you had like 2000 years before Abraham, then 2000 years from Abraham to Christ, then like 2000 years from Christ to like around now and like something big is, like everyone knows something big is about to happen.
01:24:48.908 -->
01:24:54.284I'm not saying it's the apocalypse or something like that, but something is going on in the world, like the world is fundamentally changing.
01:24:54.284 -->
01:25:02.551It's sort of interesting in the Masoretic timeline, about every 2000 years like something really big happens, like the world fundamentally changes, and I think that's sort of cool.
01:25:02.551 -->
01:25:13.323I don't really have any evidence for it and I agree the Septuagint timeline seems to make a bit better sense of the data a bit better sense of the data grover.
01:25:13.342 -->
01:25:17.154We're not going to cover your question, but we do have father martin coming on in a few weeks so he'll probably enjoy that show.
01:25:17.154 -->
01:25:24.923We're not getting, we're not going to get into controversial topics tonight, we're just we're just talking to our friend gideon dealing with his uh, specialty.
01:25:25.685 -->
01:25:30.113So, um, you got a couple more, rob uh, there's, there's one, um, but it might be.
01:25:30.113 -->
01:25:37.273Might be better when we uh on locals, just for the subject okay, all right, guys.
01:25:37.554 -->
01:25:39.600Uh, if you haven't already, please hit like and subscribe.
01:25:39.600 -->
01:25:44.289If you guys are not subscribed to our locals, which most are not, most are not.
01:25:44.289 -->
01:25:46.765So locals is where we have most of our fun.
01:25:46.765 -->
01:25:50.243It's where we actually talk about the things we can't really talk about over here.
01:25:50.243 -->
01:26:00.005Um, it's a much, much different style of show, cause we're a lot less worried about presenting like this Well produced you know, yeah, cause we do that so well.
01:26:01.462 -->
01:26:02.127Come over to locals.
01:26:02.149 -->
01:26:03.439Guys, you won't regret it, I promise.
01:26:03.439 -->
01:26:05.608If you like this version of the show, come over to local.
01:26:05.648 -->
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01:26:15.250 -->
01:26:17.880So yeah, or you get the whole year for 50, and then you don't have to think about it again and uh, yeah.
01:26:17.880 -->
01:26:20.125So, guys, join us over on locals.
01:26:20.125 -->
01:26:24.694Um, also, we are going to be doing trivia on tuesday, april 1st.
01:26:24.694 -->
01:26:28.210I know that sounds like it's going to be an april fool's joke.
01:26:28.210 -->
01:26:28.783Oh, it sounds right now.
01:26:28.783 -->
01:26:29.244It's not planned to be.
01:26:29.244 -->
01:26:30.350We're not planning for it to be an april fool's joke.
01:26:30.371 -->
01:26:31.877It sounds right now it's not planned to be.
01:26:31.877 -->
01:26:34.426We're not planning for it to be a april fool's joke.
01:26:34.426 -->
01:26:37.782We're gonna try and do trivia on april 1st, so we will.
01:26:37.782 -->
01:26:42.390Uh, thank you for everybody for 25 000 subs and we'll see you on the other side.
01:26:42.470 -->
01:26:47.931Rob, take us out let me find a good outro to play here.
01:26:47.931 -->
01:26:50.581Uh, we'll just do this.
01:27:18.315 -->
01:27:22.819We should have promoted those Lenten videos, rob, because you put a lot into them and they are very good.
01:27:24.506 -->
01:27:24.807Darn it.
01:27:24.908 -->
01:27:28.458Oh well, I should have promoted those.
01:27:28.458 -->
01:27:29.261I'm sorry about that.
01:27:29.261 -->
01:27:33.154Next show we definitely will, but let me just pull up the chat.
01:27:33.154 -->
01:27:40.516Hang on, hang on, I'll do this later.
01:27:40.516 -->
01:27:43.213Join stream.
01:27:43.213 -->
01:27:48.492Okay, yeah, I wanted to.
01:27:48.492 -->
01:27:53.743Okay, so you were coming from a Jewish background.
01:27:53.743 -->
01:28:14.789To me that Jews like the hardest thing they gave you was that, so Gentiles, like Catholics, shouldn't have to observe Torah, but you, as a Jewish convert, should be observing Torah still.
01:28:15.869 -->
01:28:16.029Yeah.
01:28:16.029 -->
01:28:16.912So this is sort of.
01:28:16.912 -->
01:28:26.618I think a lot of people misunderstand the Jewish critique of Christians not keeping the Mosaic Law, because their critique is not.
01:28:26.618 -->
01:28:28.042At least the ones who are thinking through.
01:28:28.042 -->
01:28:31.591Them are not saying like, obviously you might have a Jew who just comes up with one off the top of his head.
01:28:31.591 -->
01:28:33.876But the more intelligent critiques, right.
01:28:33.876 -->
01:28:43.064They will say that it makes perfect sense, right, that you three don't keep the Mosaic Law Because they have an idea that Gentiles were never obligated to keep the Mosaic law.
01:28:43.791 -->
01:28:44.694They have this idea.
01:28:44.694 -->
01:28:52.462Basically it replaces natural law for them called the Noahide laws, which are a set of laws given to Noah that they think are binding upon all mankind.
01:28:52.462 -->
01:29:01.019And so it will be things like don't murder, don't steal, don't commit adultery and stuff, but it will also include honoring God as part of that.
01:29:01.019 -->
01:29:09.067So they think you have to basically follow a monotheistic religion as a Gentile in order to be righteous, but they don't think you have to go beyond following a monotheistic religion.
01:29:09.067 -->
01:29:11.579They all agree that Islam counts as that.
01:29:11.579 -->
01:29:18.975There's debates among them about whether or not Christianity counts as that Because of the Trinity, because of the Trinity and the Incarnation and so on.
01:29:18.975 -->
01:29:23.118Yeah, the general consensus among Jews is that it's okay.
01:29:23.118 -->
01:29:28.302It's sort of good enough monotheism for the Gentiles, but like the Jews should know better and so it doesn't count for them.
01:29:29.463 -->
01:29:30.243Good enough.
01:29:30.645 -->
01:29:33.027Yeah, that's sort of their, that's what a lot of them will have.
01:29:33.027 -->
01:29:45.689I don't think it really works as a solution, but I think it sort of fell out politically because it's a lot easier for Jews to live among righteous Gentiles in terms of following the Jewish law, because you can sign contracts and stuff and so on with righteous Gentiles.
01:29:45.689 -->
01:29:49.180So it made the lives of Jews a lot easier if they could count Christians as that.
01:29:49.180 -->
01:29:55.070But you would see, for example, a rabbi would feel perfectly comfortable walking into a mosque and pray.
01:29:55.070 -->
01:29:56.432You wouldn't do the Islamic prayers.
01:29:56.432 -->
01:30:04.877But if he couldn't find a synagogue and the imam was like, hey, you can use our mosque to have your synagogue service, the rabbi would feel perfectly comfortable doing that.
01:30:04.877 -->
01:30:10.820If we want to be like a practicing traditional rabbi, like hey, would you like to come?
01:30:10.820 -->
01:30:12.104Hey, take a look at our church.
01:30:12.104 -->
01:30:13.555You see what it's like on the inside.
01:30:13.555 -->
01:30:29.039They're not even allowed to set foot in it because for a Jew it would count as idolatry, and so they're not allowed to set foot in an idolatrous place.
01:30:29.039 -->
01:30:34.456Versus they would have no issue with you probably walking and even worshiping there and so on, and so that's sort of the difference that plays for them.
01:30:34.456 -->
01:30:37.369But the bigger issue they have was we go to them right and we tell them Jesus is the Messiah, here's all these prophecies he fulfilled.
01:30:37.369 -->
01:30:39.555And they might say, all right, that's nice.
01:30:40.096 -->
01:30:47.403But the Jews who become Christians sort of leave the Jewish community and they cease to practice the Mosaic law.
01:30:47.403 -->
01:30:55.514And their issue is that when God gave the Mosaic law to the Jews, he gave it to them forever, so it's not for the Gentiles forever.
01:30:55.514 -->
01:31:08.435It makes perfect sense that Christianity would have their own rituals for Gentiles, but their bigger issue is the fact that, like someone like me, when I come into the Catholic Church, historically I would have been completely forbidden from keeping any Jewish rituals.
01:31:08.435 -->
01:31:13.179Now that's debated whether it's completely forbidden, but at the very least it's not actively encouraged.
01:31:13.179 -->
01:31:22.577Versus it would seem that for the Jews there should be an obligation on Jewish Christians, if Christianity is true, to keep the Jewish law.
01:31:22.577 -->
01:31:31.055Now a lot of Jews will sort of say this is a blessing in disguise for them because, like traitors like me, will sort of leave the community, not be part of it anymore, and we're not a problem for them as much.
01:31:32.158 -->
01:31:34.413Versus Wait, wait, real quick, let me jump in there.
01:31:34.413 -->
01:31:36.980Are you no longer a part of your like?
01:31:36.980 -->
01:31:37.221Did you?
01:31:37.221 -->
01:31:39.032How did your family react to you converting part of your like?
01:31:39.032 -->
01:31:39.192Did you?
01:31:39.192 -->
01:31:39.591How did your family?
01:31:39.612 -->
01:31:40.073react to you converting.
01:31:40.073 -->
01:31:56.831Yeah, for my family I think, coming from a liberal Jewish background, the issue is more being like religious, like I think if I had become very Orthodox Jewish, it would have created attention as well, because the issue there more is joining like a very conservative religion, more so versus like.
01:31:56.831 -->
01:31:59.938I actually think I get along pretty well with Orthodox Jews because we'll tell each other like I think you're wrong, I think you're wrong.
01:31:59.938 -->
01:32:02.644Let's have a discussion about the theology because we're getting to it.
01:32:02.644 -->
01:32:06.652But to them I am still technically Jewish, right.
01:32:06.652 -->
01:32:10.340So they actually are forbidden to proselytize to non-Jews.
01:32:10.340 -->
01:32:14.457So if you come to them and you say I want to convert, they're allowed to let you convert.
01:32:14.457 -->
01:32:17.457They have to discourage you as much as possible, but you're allowed to convert to Judaism.
01:32:17.957 -->
01:32:18.801Vers versus for me.
01:32:18.801 -->
01:32:26.872They actually are encouraged to come to someone like me and encourage us to return back to Judaism or to less observant Jews and convinced them to be Jewish.
01:32:26.872 -->
01:32:29.582So under Jewish law I am still Jewish a hundred percent.
01:32:29.582 -->
01:32:34.884Um, my kids are not Jewish because my wife isn't Jewish and it's passed down maternally in Judaism.
01:32:34.884 -->
01:32:39.337But, like for a female convert, their kids would all be considered Jewish.
01:32:39.337 -->
01:32:55.001So, like I know a convert I'm friends with, where her grandmother is Jewish and converted to Catholicism and so she is still legally Jewish, so like she has met with various rabbis and stuff and they'll try to encourage her back to Judaism, even though now for like two generations in her family they haven't been Jewish.
01:32:55.001 -->
01:33:16.278Wow, but they'll say if Christianity were true, then right, it should seem to be the case then that Jewish Christians ought to continue keeping the Mosaic law because it was bound on all of Israel for all eternity, and so that's a big objection they have which is, I think, very different than someone like you mentioned Bryson, I think, is his name.
01:33:16.458 -->
01:33:17.461Yeah, Bryson Gray.
01:33:17.461 -->
01:33:20.872So he's, he's a Torah observant Christian.
01:33:20.872 -->
01:33:28.797Now, the thing I see mainly with these guys like they insist you call Jesus Yeshua but they also don't believe in the Trinity.
01:33:28.797 -->
01:33:33.041Like I don't know if they just think Jesus is a created being.
01:33:33.041 -->
01:33:44.390Like they have a lot of theological issues but they still think you need to keep the old covenant law issues, but they still think you need to keep the old covenant law.
01:33:47.149 -->
01:33:48.617Yeah, it seems to me there's sort of two sort of broad groups of people.
01:33:48.617 -->
01:33:49.641People use these labels in different ways.
01:33:49.641 -->
01:33:51.210This is the way I've heard like experts on this difference categorize it.
01:33:51.210 -->
01:33:53.997They'll distinguish Hebrew roots and Messianic Judaism.
01:33:53.997 -->
01:34:02.460So Hebrew roots is what someone like Bryson Gray is part of, where they think that all Gentile Christians are obligated to keep the Mosaic law right.
01:34:02.460 -->
01:34:08.036So they go actually much further than Jews would ever object to, because to them, like it doesn't make any sense.
01:34:08.036 -->
01:34:09.860Why would a Gentile be obligated to keep it?
01:34:09.860 -->
01:34:15.673Actually, there's certain aspects of the Mosaic law that Gentiles are forbidden to keep, so, for example, the Sabbath right.
01:34:15.673 -->
01:34:19.342So Jews will be very strict about, like, not turning on lights and stuff like that on the Sabbath.
01:34:19.342 -->
01:34:31.805They actually think it's forbidden for a Gentile to be that strict on the Sabbath because the Sabbath was given to Israel as a sign of the covenant, to Israel, not to the nations, and so they'll actually say no, it's completely wrong.
01:34:31.826 -->
01:34:51.481But there's also this other movement of Messianic Judaism, which has at least a significant number of people who actually are ethnically Jews, who became Christians, and to them there's a wide variety of views among them on what exactly should be kept, but some of them will actually think that like they should be keeping the Mosaic Law.
01:34:51.481 -->
01:34:56.979So as an example of actually one that I recently became friends with is this guy, mark Kinzer, who is actually very interesting.
01:34:56.979 -->
01:34:58.972He's written some books on Catholic theology.
01:34:58.972 -->
01:35:01.216He has very positive views of the Catholic Church.
01:35:01.216 -->
01:35:03.601He's written some books on Catholic theology and he has very positive views of the Catholic church.
01:35:03.601 -->
01:35:12.692He's actually been to the Vatican many times and stuff and actually spoken with people on theological commissions there and stuff Very positive views of the Catholic church.
01:35:12.692 -->
01:35:26.773But he actually says the issue for him why he cannot become Catholic is he thinks Jesus, as an ethnic Jew, requires him to be keeping the Mosaic law and that the Catholic Church doesn't agree with that and that's sort of his last big stumbling block to becoming Catholic.
01:35:26.773 -->
01:35:32.243And so this is a distinct and different issue to wrestle with.
01:35:32.243 -->
01:35:37.242And I think it's a more difficult one to wrestle with from a Catholic perspective of why.
01:35:37.242 -->
01:35:40.216Not only because there's sort of two distinct issues.
01:35:40.216 -->
01:35:43.083There's the dead and deadly aspects of the traditional teaching on this.
01:35:43.083 -->
01:35:47.496So the dead aspect is that Jewish Christians are no longer required to keep the law.
01:35:47.496 -->
01:35:57.355I think this is probably the easier for us to defend to other Christians because we can point out, like St Paul, for example, saying that I as one who am no longer under the law.
01:35:57.818 -->
01:36:02.712But we also see clear passages where the apostles seem to be keeping Jewish rituals.
01:36:02.712 -->
01:36:13.756There's actually a passage in the book of Acts where St Paul comes back from one of his missionary journeys and the church in Jerusalem they say, hey, we're hearing, there was a lot of Jews all over the Roman Empire at the time.
01:36:13.756 -->
01:36:22.122They say, hey, we're hearing that you're going to these Jewish Christians throughout the Roman Empire and you're telling them to stop observing the Mosaic Law.
01:36:22.122 -->
01:36:32.354And St Paul actually denies that accusation completely and he goes and offers a sacrifice to the temple to prove that he's not against Jewish Christians, at least voluntarily choosing to keep it.
01:36:33.095 -->
01:36:46.081But then you get a development of a later teaching, which is the idea that, additionally, the Mosaic Law is deadly, that not only that, if you are a convert from Judaism, you are obligated upon your baptism to renounce the keeping of any Jewish customs.
01:36:46.081 -->
01:36:56.162And this actually often got much wider, not only to things that are actually in the Mosaic law, but any sort of Jewish custom altogether, and this is, I think, another sort of difficulty.
01:36:56.162 -->
01:37:02.944There's debates around how dogmatic, various times, this was stated, was what it applies to, and so on.
01:37:02.944 -->
01:37:04.873Um, because, do you think?
01:37:04.913 -->
01:37:09.302the church was was worried about jewish infiltration or judaizing.
01:37:09.302 -->
01:37:11.842What do you think the church was was worried about during those?
01:37:11.863 -->
01:37:14.432that's what I've been trying to do research on, like how did this develop?
01:37:14.432 -->
01:37:29.662Because there was a group called the ebionites that seem to be all the church fathers are aware of the ebion, who are essentially they deny the Trinity, they're Jewish Christians and they think that Christ is just a human, from what I understand, and so this was a clear heretical group and stuff.
01:37:29.662 -->
01:37:40.300But there's also was a second group that seems to be a little bit smaller that we have some records of, called the Nazarenes, where it seems that they were essentially believed everything we believe, but they also kept the Jewish law.
01:37:40.300 -->
01:37:42.764Now we don't have any records from them themselves.
01:37:42.764 -->
01:37:44.265We don't know what they believed entirely.
01:37:44.265 -->
01:37:47.079We have sort of two 4th century records of them.
01:37:47.079 -->
01:37:50.072St Epiphanius mentions them and St Jerome mentions them.
01:37:50.072 -->
01:38:06.854So St Epiphanius just sort of mentions them briefly and it's unclear whether St Jerome is referring back to St Epiphanius' mention or he himself knew some of them and is mentioning them as a distinct group.
01:38:06.854 -->
01:38:08.199And St Jerome's explanation against them is he's actually worried.
01:38:08.199 -->
01:38:14.600He says if they become fully in communion with the church, we won't Christianize them, they will Judaize us, and that's St Jerome's response to sort of accepting them into the church.
01:38:14.621 -->
01:38:17.975So I think there is a concern of Judaizing there.
01:38:17.975 -->
01:38:24.425But it also seems to me that I understand that traditional teaching and I agree with it.
01:38:24.425 -->
01:38:38.438But I also think at times we've historically been too strict, that there's been an assumption that anytime a Jew keeps a Jewish custom in light of the church, that that's then been assumed that they are Judaizing, that they reject the teaching of the church, and so on.
01:38:38.438 -->
01:38:49.059There's also been a lot of times right when Jewish converts are living in countries where there are significant political advantages to being Catholic rather than Jewish, and so there was a fear of false converts as well.
01:38:49.059 -->
01:38:51.756Sorry, let's make them prove that they're going to be loyal converts.
01:38:51.756 -->
01:38:55.920You know, versus, that does not seem to me to be the situation now.
01:38:55.920 -->
01:38:57.896And what really changed my view?
01:38:57.896 -->
01:38:59.832I used to be of the view that, like and what really changed my view?
01:38:59.832 -->
01:39:06.083I used to be of the view that, like, no Jewish converts Catholicism beyond maybe doing some prayers in Hebrew or something like that that are already Catholic prayers, like the Psalms.
01:39:06.083 -->
01:39:12.533No, there should not be this cultural Judaism within the church.
01:39:12.533 -->
01:39:17.484What changed my view on it was actually speaking with Israeli Catholic friends, because there's about people talk a lot.
01:39:17.484 -->
01:39:19.478I don't want to get into the political situation in Israel at all.
01:39:19.609 -->
01:39:25.640People are very aware of the Arab Catholics in Israel, but there's also a number of Jewish converts in Israel.
01:39:25.640 -->
01:39:33.604It's about eight Hebrew speaking parishes in Israel, about 500 total people who attend them and about 200 Jewish converts, from what I hear from my friends there.
01:39:33.604 -->
01:39:39.565But my friends there will also tell me that there are Messianic Jews there which are.
01:39:39.565 -->
01:39:51.243It's one thing in America where you have the Messianic Jews, where they're heavily Gentiles attending these congregations, but you have these Messianic Jews in Israel where 99% of the people they're going to be going to are other Jews there.
01:39:51.243 -->
01:40:01.561So you have these congregations where they're all ethnically Jewish and they want a Christianity that is essentially culturally Jewish, that is recognizable to them as Judaism.
01:40:01.561 -->
01:40:10.100But it's very different when you're a pagan right approaching the New Testament and you're approaching it and all right, this Jesus guy is completely foreign to our tradition.
01:40:10.100 -->
01:40:15.694But it's a bit different when you're approaching a Jewish person right and you see Jesus and all the apostles are these Jewish people.
01:40:15.694 -->
01:40:22.400They're keeping various Jewish traditions and so on, and so these Messianic Jews have been very successful there.
01:40:22.489 -->
01:40:25.399Now the official numbers there are about 10,000 to 20,000.
01:40:25.399 -->
01:40:26.673I've heard from my friends there.
01:40:26.673 -->
01:40:28.699They think it's more 30,000 to 50,000 people.
01:40:28.699 -->
01:40:34.858This is the most successful Christian mission to Jews since the apostolic period, probably in human history.
01:40:34.858 -->
01:40:37.698Right, this is something huge that is going on there.
01:40:37.698 -->
01:40:44.359But they're not turning to the Catholic Church, right, because I think there it's a little bit of a political situation as well with the church there.
01:40:44.359 -->
01:41:02.597But I think a big part of it is that the Catholic church to them it's Gentile Christianity and they want Jewish Christianity and so to them the Catholic church, right, that's the Catholic church to them, especially to a lot of these people, those are the Christians who persecuted us for so long and stuff like that.
01:41:02.597 -->
01:41:13.426They'll sort of they think of the worst periods of like things catholics have ever done to jews and then they put all of that on the catholic church itself and then they never don't know any of the positive times.
01:41:13.547 -->
01:41:23.210You're talking about a 2000 year history that the church has and there has been this enmity between jews and catholics for thousands of years.
01:41:23.210 -->
01:41:31.511Right, it's like, yeah, and then you kind of get this, this uh, pro-zion protestant version that comes out.
01:41:31.511 -->
01:41:38.434I could see why they would maybe gravitate towards that a little bit more, you know yeah, and I think they're like.
01:41:38.474 -->
01:42:02.204I was looking through the account of um some like uh jewish christ who lives in Israel, who was hanging out, it seemed like, with some of the like Jewish Catholics I know in Israel and she actually seemed to be building a network there between, like the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians there and she said look like I have lots of friends who are Arab Christians in the various Catholic and Orthodox churches there, but I don't see how a Jew can possibly be a member of these churches Like.
01:42:02.225 -->
01:42:13.800It seems like they're like fundamentally opposed to Jewish identity altogether and it's great that like these Catholics are, because especially the church in Israel you have to recognize is very ethnic, right.
01:42:13.800 -->
01:42:16.734So you have Latin Catholic parishes that are like Arabs.
01:42:16.734 -->
01:42:19.682You have like Melkite parishes that are Melkites.
01:42:19.682 -->
01:42:28.043These are people who have been Melkites for like 2000 years, same with the Maronites, right, they can trace back their lineage many generations.
01:42:28.043 -->
01:42:40.302So it seems like, all right, this is an our ethnic church here for the Jews there, and it seems to me that a positive if we could develop a way that is in line with Catholic theology, a Jewish Christian presence there in Israel, kind of like a Jewish ordinariate.
01:42:41.470 -->
01:42:51.431Yeah exactly like that, just like we have the various Eastern churches, the Anglican ordinariate, as a sign to these various people that no, you can come back into communion with the church and keep some of your tradition.
01:42:51.431 -->
01:43:05.363That's what would be the same sign there towards the Jews there, and I think this could actually be a very effective way of evangelism there in the Holy Land, because everyone likes to sort of jump on St Pius X's statements there about Israel.
01:43:05.363 -->
01:43:18.112But he also says in that discussion with Theodor Herzl and we will be there with priests to baptize you, and I feel like we haven't kept up that part of it Like the church there in Israel I don't want to get into the politics again, but it really does.
01:43:18.112 -->
01:43:24.600If you look at their public statements, they're really publicly focused on ministering there to the Arab population, which is very understandable.
01:43:24.600 -->
01:43:28.945There's a lot of suffering going on there among the Arab Catholics, so I understand that.
01:43:28.945 -->
01:43:38.078But there's also this large Jewish population there that we need to reach out to with the gospel and actually Pius XII.
01:43:38.097 -->
01:43:46.139So initially when Israel was founded, there was a few Jewish converts there and they wanted to actually translate the west syriac right into hebrew and use that.
01:43:46.139 -->
01:43:48.453So it would be also native middle eastern as well.
01:43:48.453 -->
01:43:50.538Yeah, and they translate it and stuff.
01:43:50.538 -->
01:44:06.435The issue is they couldn't find any priests who knew the west syriac right who would be willing to do this, so they ended up getting permission from pope pius the 12th to translate the latin mass into Hebrew and that's what they started using initially, and now they just do the Novus Ordo there in Hebrew.
01:44:06.815 -->
01:44:11.038But they try I feel like I watched one of the masses online they try to add some like Jewish music into it.
01:44:11.038 -->
01:44:16.402They'll sort of reword some things to make it sort of sound more traditionally Jewish, but it's still.
01:44:16.402 -->
01:44:24.086Like what I've heard of people who attend these parishes yeah, they're about like a third maybe Jews attending them and the Jewish Catholic community.
01:44:24.086 -->
01:44:28.707It's a very close knit community, like apparently they get together every month and stuff and we'll hang out.
01:44:28.707 -->
01:44:34.340Because, like one of my friends who's part of it was posting on Twitter like, oh, I wish I could be in America.
01:44:34.340 -->
01:44:39.375Like you guys have Christmas celebrations everywhere, I'm like, bro, you have a holy site like every five feet in your country.
01:44:41.257 -->
01:44:43.360What was it that you said you and Nick disagreed on?
01:44:43.360 -->
01:44:45.423Because you said Nick did a video on something like this.
01:44:45.704 -->
01:44:45.984Yeah.
01:44:45.984 -->
01:45:04.117So, nick, you put out a video, basically seemed like taking sort of the hard line position against any keeping of Jewish customs whatsoever within the church, and someone in the comments asked you, for example, about like Jewish Christians in Israel who will like keep Hanukkah and stuff like that as a cultural thing, and you seem very opposed to that.
01:45:04.117 -->
01:45:06.230So I'd be curious to talk to you a bit more about this.
01:45:07.734 -->
01:45:13.873Yeah, essentially my position is the position of the Council of Florence, which again we'll have to interpret with some nuance.
01:45:13.873 -->
01:45:43.078But it's essentially that if a person goes back to the old law and sees any type of salvific necessity in it and we're talking about the ceremonial law here, so we're not talking about morality, but the ceremonial law, et cetera or if they go back to it thinking that they are just bound to observe it whether or not it is salvific, but they think it's at least a precept, then that would be something that would be anathematized 's, something that would be mortally sinful.
01:45:43.078 -->
01:45:44.002So they give examples.
01:45:44.021 -->
01:45:45.453I think gideon would agree with that.
01:45:45.453 -->
01:45:48.140Yeah, right, like if you see it as salvific, there's a problem.
01:45:48.159 -->
01:45:58.572Yeah, I would agree, so there's yeah, but not even salvific, because it includes also, if one thinks that one is supposed to observe it, even if there's not any hope of salvation into it.
01:45:58.572 -->
01:46:22.766And my concern would be, is be is that and this is why I said we'd have to address it with some nuance is that one could perhaps make the argument that, in a pastoral situation, one could have some elements of ethnic Judaism, if you will, cultural traditions perhaps be inserted into the customs?
01:46:22.766 -->
01:46:33.252My fear, though, is that in our post-1960s worldview, where we have individuals like, for instance, what's his name?
01:46:33.252 -->
01:46:38.391The cardinal that was put in charge of dealing with foreign religions by Pope Benedict XVI?
01:46:38.391 -->
01:46:42.402He's famously said Casper, cardinal Casper.
01:46:42.789 -->
01:46:50.497He's famously said multiple times that the Catholic Church has lost its right to try to convert the Jews, that we shouldn't try to convert the Jews.
01:46:50.497 -->
01:46:59.515This has been something that's been said by previous pontiffs over and over and over again, and it's definitely clearly some type of reaction from the things that took place in the 1940s.
01:46:59.515 -->
01:47:00.416We'll just put it that way.
01:47:00.416 -->
01:47:19.569I think that you just see this major kowtowing of the church to the Jewish community, and because of that, my fear is that any type of major promotion of anything Judaizing would be that it would be a Judaizing of the faith in some form or fashion if that makes sense.
01:47:19.609 -->
01:47:23.610Yeah, I understand where you're coming from and I think I could maybe make a few distinctions here.
01:47:23.610 -->
01:47:28.333On the Council of Florence, it seems like there's sort of two parts to that decree which are closely bound together.
01:47:28.333 -->
01:47:29.556Right, there is the right.
01:47:29.556 -->
01:47:36.898If you think this is salvific, that's heretical, and then you also have an additional canonical prohibition on practicing it at all.
01:47:36.898 -->
01:47:54.891But there also, then we have to read this in light of Benedict XIV, not Benedict XVI Benedict XIV's encyclical Ex Quo, where he makes a distinction about the fact that many Catholic rituals come from the old law and he actually says no, if that's part of a liturgical rite of the church, that's not Judaizing because it's been approved by the church.
01:47:54.891 -->
01:48:05.761And so what I see is I think it first of all, I think it has to be done in close connection with the magisterium of the church as an important point, that it has to be guided by the magisterium in this.
01:48:05.761 -->
01:48:14.927And I also think that if you look at what is the heart of the old law, it's the temple and sacrifice, and that has now been lost in Judaism.
01:48:14.927 -->
01:48:22.194They only have everything that goes around that, but they've lost the heart of it, and we have the heart of it with the Eucharist around that, but they've lost the heart of it and we have the heart of it with the Eucharist.
01:48:22.194 -->
01:48:39.613But I think, taking in any Jewish rituals, it has to be re-acclimated into a Eucharistic context, that these now become these sort of sacramentals by which Jewish Christians show their covenant fidelity towards God and they're ordering themselves to the reception of the Eucharist as the source and summit of the faith.
01:48:39.613 -->
01:48:40.655So I think that's important.
01:48:40.716 -->
01:48:44.947In terms of post-Vatican II documents, I think this is complex.
01:48:44.947 -->
01:48:50.002I've read through quite a bit of these documents now and there's two ways I think you can read that Now there are.
01:48:50.002 -->
01:48:52.657Casper has clearly made his interpretation public.
01:48:52.657 -->
01:48:56.654Right, that he thinks what these documents mean is that we shouldn't be evangelizing Jews.
01:48:56.654 -->
01:49:21.141But I think you could give a second interpretation, which is that what they're saying is that the goal of the church is not to erase the Jewish people, because the way that a lot of Jews understand the history of Christian evangelism towards the Jews right is, let's say, the church had historically been successful at evangelizing all the Jews, there might have been people identifying as ethnically Jewish for a generation, two generations, three generations.
01:49:21.141 -->
01:49:22.872It would not exist anymore, right?
01:49:22.872 -->
01:49:34.859And so they have the fear that maybe we come with the best of intentions for their salvation, but they think what's going to end up happening is the erasing of the Jewish people, if our mission was successful, no matter how well we mean it Right.
01:49:34.859 -->
01:49:45.125And then they look at the Holocaust and they say look, it might be that Hitler had very different intentions than Catholic missionaries, but nonetheless it has the same outcome in their minds.
01:49:45.685 -->
01:49:51.757So right, because Jews are very Jewish culture is very anti-individualist, right?
01:49:51.757 -->
01:50:03.242So I heard, for example, this one woman who grew up in the very strict Orthodox Jewish community and left, and she brought up to her parents at one point like I'm not happy in this community, and her parents' answer was whoever told you you're supposed to be happy?
01:50:03.242 -->
01:50:05.935You're doing this for the Jewish people, to continue on the Jewish people.
01:50:05.935 -->
01:50:12.865They have a very, very anti-individualist culture and so the idea is that is their people, no matter what happens.
01:50:12.865 -->
01:50:14.692You have to continue on the Jewish people.
01:50:14.692 -->
01:50:27.149This is why they're very opposed to our idea of like clerical celibacy, for example, because having kids is the most important thing you can do as a Jew.
01:50:27.149 -->
01:50:27.806To continue on the Jewish people.
01:50:27.735 -->
01:50:28.890And so Catholic missionaries are coming to them versus.
01:50:28.890 -->
01:50:29.557We could instead say no.
01:50:29.557 -->
01:50:38.154What we are trying to do is make you guys recognize, as the Jewish community, that Jesus is King of the Jews, and we want you, not merely as individual people coming over to the Catholic church.
01:50:38.154 -->
01:50:42.765We want you as a Jewish community, as a, to finally accept Jesus as your king.
01:50:42.765 -->
01:50:45.692And we're not saying in the process, you're going to cease being Jewish.
01:50:45.692 -->
01:50:49.820What we're saying is really almost the dead versus deadly thing.
01:50:49.820 -->
01:50:51.854You're going to die and then be resurrected.
01:50:51.854 -->
01:51:03.032The Jewish community has to die and be resurrected and so that way, all these Jewish rituals you've been doing, they will be transfigured in the light of Christ, and so I think that has to be very important.
01:51:03.051 -->
01:51:06.581I sometimes feel like online nowadays, I'm like combating two sides at once.
01:51:06.581 -->
01:51:15.581Right, there is obviously there's a lot of people who sort of weaponized antisemitism and like we'll say anything is antisemitism, anything under the sun is antisemitism, and it drives me insane to no end.
01:51:15.581 -->
01:51:39.137But you've also had people online who've now weaponized the weaponization of anti-Semitism to say things that are like very blatantly anti-Semitic, like praising Hitler and stuff like that, and saying like I wish the Holocaust happened, stuff like that, and you're using that and all saying like this, connecting it with Catholicism, and this concerns me on the other end as well, and so I feel like there's almost two sides.
01:51:45.109 -->
01:51:47.720There's one side that doesn't want a Jewish Christian presence, because then we're going to be evangelizing the Jews and we want to be nice to the Jews.
01:51:47.720 -->
01:51:49.036And there's the other side that doesn't want it because they don't want any ethnic Jews within the church.
01:51:49.036 -->
01:51:54.893Or if they do, they want sort of the token Jew who's going to expose the secrets of Judaism or something like that.
01:51:54.893 -->
01:52:03.364And I think that this could actually create a healthy medium between these two where we can say we're evangelizing Jews.
01:52:03.829 -->
01:52:18.494And I also think for you, like there's been a lot of, if you grow up as a white man in the West nowadays you're going to hear from your birth that being a white man is evil, that if you oppose your population being ethnically replaced, that you're a racist and stuff like that right.
01:52:19.396 -->
01:52:29.123And it's because the church is trying like people are not that the church per se, but what's going on there is we're saying that your ethnic identity plays no important role as a Catholic right.
01:52:29.123 -->
01:52:29.627But that's not true.
01:52:29.627 -->
01:52:55.289Historically we've always recognized that every ethnic community as a whole community is transfigured in the light of Christ and will have their own unique cultural expressions of the Catholic faith and I actually think putting this forward for Jews, as well as almost any, answers that and says no, we're actually going to stand in solidarity and we're going to say neither ethnic Jews nor Europeans should have their ethnic identity erased and that the erasure of ethnic identity is a problem.
01:52:55.289 -->
01:53:06.641And then, if you don't say that publicly and address that, what's going to happen then is like online, neo-nazis are going to take over the discourse yeah, I get you, I don't think we're actually in disagreement.
01:53:06.702 -->
01:53:12.105I think, yeah, I was like, I don't think, as you've explained, I don't think we're really in disagreement.
01:53:12.105 -->
01:53:32.957We, we might perhaps have disagreements and like the practicals of how it practically should be implemented, but in and of itself, I don't disagree with you, because I mean, for me, growing up as evangelical, when I read the Bible I started from the beginning, and so I just read the Old Testament over and over and over again, and the New Testament, of course, comes alive in light of the old and vice versa.
01:53:32.957 -->
01:53:50.761And that is the central problem with Judaism today is that all of the temple rituals and sacrifice are absent, and so you have to have some type of solution to this problem, and of course we know that that's in the person of Christ, it's not just in the rogue memorization of prayers at the Wailing Wall.
01:53:50.761 -->
01:53:52.364And so I think, yeah, we would agree.
01:53:52.364 -->
01:54:07.793We probably would just have to debate out practically how those things come to be, and I am, of course, open to um a more conservative reading of those texts of the count well, not even so much of the council, but of the post-council documents on this subject.
01:54:08.255 -->
01:54:12.489My main concern, though, is that all of the popes that I have seen as an example?
01:54:12.489 -->
01:54:13.893Pope francis's first book.
01:54:13.893 -->
01:54:21.439He co-authors with a jewish rabbi and they talk about blatantly in there that the catholic church has lost its right to try to evangelize the Jews.
01:54:21.439 -->
01:54:28.444So it's like you and I clearly both have a desire for the gospel right to go to the Jews and to the Gentiles, to all men wherever.
01:54:28.444 -->
01:54:38.680But I see that the way that these texts are being interpreted, at least by the authorities, again, not necessarily in official capacities but in their private writings and their sermons etc.
01:54:38.680 -->
01:54:41.604Seems to be antithetical to you and I as ideal.
01:54:42.586 -->
01:54:43.065That's fair.
01:54:43.065 -->
01:54:50.501Yeah, it is interesting because, like I'll say, there are certain things I can't reveal publicly.
01:54:50.501 -->
01:55:00.710But I will say, like discussions about these issues of Jewish Catholics are going on in the Vatican and it started under John Paul II and has continued under Benedictine.
01:55:00.710 -->
01:55:03.457Someone, actually I met with someone who's involved in this commission.
01:55:03.457 -->
01:55:17.011He said pray for Pope Francis, because he's actually encouraging us in this and so we want Pope Francis to keep living so that we can continue our mission on this, because it could very well be we get a future Pope where this becomes too politically incorrect.
01:55:17.011 -->
01:55:23.104So under John Paul II and Benedict, these discussions were completely secret.
01:55:23.104 -->
01:55:36.448So they invited, like Messianic Jewish theologians, over to the Vatican and had private discussions with them and they said look, we are amazed that all these Jews are becoming Christians and we want to understand from you guys you're the leaders of your community why is this happening?
01:55:36.448 -->
01:55:37.452Can you explain it to us?
01:55:37.452 -->
01:55:40.862Can we build a dialogue between Messianic Judaism and Catholicism?
01:55:40.862 -->
01:56:03.965And they met for many years on this, but they actually could not discuss this publicly because if these discussions were going on publicly, the Jewish community would have probably would have cut off their dialogue, as it is our public dialogue with the Jewish community is like always on eggshells, like we have to be extremely careful on what we say about this, and so some of this is now moving into the public.
01:56:04.331 -->
01:56:25.983I can't give away details of what I know, but I know that there is stuff that's going to be coming out publicly endorsing a Jewish Catholic presence somehow and basically opening discussion for this, and so I think it's actually important that conservative believing theologians get ahead of this, so that way we're the ones leading those discussions rather than, um, like the liberals taking it over.
01:56:25.983 -->
01:56:33.591Because it could be really concerning if this is then used as a way to sort of push theological liberalism.
01:56:33.591 -->
01:56:42.448Mostly interesting, like cardinal burke, for example, everyone not at all like a liberal um bishop, when he was the archbishop of what was it?
01:56:42.448 -->
01:56:49.855Uh, saint louis, he invited in a group that's working on this called the association for hebrew catholics, and the local jewish community was outraged by this.
01:56:49.855 -->
01:56:57.212Because then your thought is oh, like we finally accepted catholicism is good for gentiles, but like, please don't become any of the jews with this, you know.
01:56:57.212 -->
01:57:13.636And so I think if we had this and we acknowledged publicly like there was a Jewish Christian presence, that almost might in some ways, in good ways, break down the more problematic aspects of the Jewish Christian dialogue and saying like no, we still do believe Jews ought to become Christians.
01:57:13.697 -->
01:57:25.551And people often point to this 2015 document, which was actually well-known in the Jewish community because the way the media reported it on it as and there are passages you can interpret that way as Jews can be saved without becoming Catholics.
01:57:25.551 -->
01:57:34.836So, like I, went on to a Jewish YouTube channel, we had a whole discussion and someone in the live chat who's like a yeshiva professor over in Israel, he said, no, this guy's confused.
01:57:34.836 -->
01:57:46.953The Vatican themselves put out a document telling us not to become Catholic, but I looked at that document as another section of that document where it talks about how the church is composed from both Jew and Gentile as part of its essential identity.
01:57:46.953 -->
01:57:57.073So if you read that document consistently, it doesn't make sense to say we shouldn't be evangelizing Jews if part of the essential identity of the church is the fact that it has Jewish members within it.
01:57:58.197 -->
01:58:04.032Yeah, the church starts off as a Jewish members within it.
01:58:04.032 -->
01:58:04.913Yeah, the church starts off as a jewish.
01:58:04.913 -->
01:58:06.739The church, like there's a schism amongst judaism in the beginning of the church.
01:58:06.920 -->
01:58:11.072It's the original church is jewish so, yeah, it seems like saint paul.
01:58:11.072 -->
01:58:19.381He predicts things right so well in romans 11, there, right where he says, all right, the jews, he could already see in his day that the jewish church was going to die off.
01:58:19.381 -->
01:58:24.572Like he's seeing this right as it's beginning to beginning to the Gentiles, the ones who are really receiving it.
01:58:24.572 -->
01:58:30.639But he says, eventually the Jews are going to come in and it's going to be like life from the dead when the Jews come back in.
01:58:30.639 -->
01:58:40.863And I think we're beginning to see that as, all of a sudden, right For the first time in history, you're seeing like tens of thousands of Jews believing in Jesus, even though they might have all sorts of wacky theology.
01:58:40.863 -->
01:58:48.238Right, this could also be a big reason if they're embracing wacky theology, like denying the Trinity, believing they have to keep the old law, and stuff like that.
01:58:48.238 -->
01:58:54.238It seems like all the more important to me that we'd be reaching out to them with the Catholic faith, like many of them even want to rebuild the temple.
01:58:54.238 -->
01:58:55.375This is the antichrist thing.
01:58:55.375 -->
01:59:13.176So we better be reaching them to bring them away from these dangers that could be there.
01:59:13.195 -->
01:59:13.979Have you had any luck evangelizing Jews?
01:59:13.979 -->
01:59:16.105I've had people come Mitch and what kicked off my thoughts was sort of two things, or really three things.
01:59:16.105 -->
01:59:24.435One of them was just like sort of realizing we got to rethink our discussions of Judaism online after seeing the downfall of the discourse in the last few years of Judaism online.
01:59:24.435 -->
01:59:34.041The second major thing was people are asking me is this a shower curtain behind me, it is a shower curtain, but I'm not in a bathroom.
01:59:34.041 -->
01:59:42.217I am in a closet right now because I'm working on building a new office and stuff outside, building a shed with a new office and a chapel and stuff.
01:59:42.217 -->
01:59:43.304And I was working on that.
01:59:43.304 -->
01:59:49.189I got this thought of like I've studied all this catholic theology, why don't I go back and like re-engage with Judaism?
01:59:49.189 -->
01:59:50.091That's the second thing.
01:59:50.091 -->
01:59:53.841But the third major thing is I actually had this Jewish guy reach out to me online.
01:59:54.951 -->
01:59:58.755You look at a practicing orthodox Jew interested in becoming catholic and he's very.
01:59:58.755 -->
02:00:08.086He's been convinced that Jesus is the Messiah, but he's very torn between um like Messianic Judaism and Catholicism.
02:00:08.086 -->
02:00:13.141He sees all our arguments for it, but it really does feel to him like there's not a place for Jews to be in it.
02:00:13.141 -->
02:00:24.524You know, and he comes from, so a lot of people when they think of Jews, they think of Ashkenazi Jews like myself, but there's also a lot of Jews from the Middle East who lived in Arab countries for all this time and he's from that population.
02:00:24.524 -->
02:00:28.728So he has, like, no historical ill will towards the Catholic church or anything Like to him.
02:00:28.728 -->
02:00:38.618He knows that the whole idea that Jews live peacefully under Islam for like 1400 years is not true, like he can tell you stories about his grandparents like suffering under Islamic rule and stuff like that.
02:00:38.618 -->
02:00:43.104So he knows that like there's no, he has no ill will towards the Catholic Church at all.
02:00:44.411 -->
02:00:52.690But there is still that issue of like being a Jew within the Catholic Church that if you have a strong connection to your Jewish identity, it can be an issue Versus.
02:00:52.690 -->
02:01:07.372Like I didn't have a strong connection to my Jewish identity, but I also I understand now that I've studied like issues of nature and grace more.
02:01:07.372 -->
02:01:09.541I look at St Thomas' teachings on ideas like filial piety and the natural virtue of religion and stuff.
02:01:09.541 -->
02:01:11.989And I'm seeing these Jews who have much better filial piety towards their ancestors than I do.
02:01:11.989 -->
02:01:38.207They have much more piety towards God than I do and I'm the one who has less of a stumbling block than them to coming into the church and you feel like it should be the other way around, like these people who really are trying to uphold their identity as a people should seem like the people who should be most attracted to the church, because our whole theology about how grace perfects nature yeah, I mean, look, this was what Paul was dealing with as well.
02:01:38.708 -->
02:01:45.354Right, Like the early Jews, they thought their identity would be erased by allowing gentiles come in.
02:01:45.494 -->
02:01:56.917I mean it's always been a major issue for the jewish people we almost need, like the opposite of the council of jerusalem, because the council of jerusalem they all came together and they said can you be a gentile and be a christian?
02:01:56.917 -->
02:02:00.293They decided yes, and that was the discussion the time of the apostles.
02:02:00.293 -->
02:02:08.078But for almost that was the discussion in the time of the apostles, but for almost the rest of history after the time of the apostles the question has not been can you be a Jew and be a Christian, or be a Gentile and be a Christian?
02:02:08.078 -->
02:02:09.591It's can you be a Jew and be a Christian?
02:02:09.591 -->
02:02:20.038And even for part of this is the Jewish community right Historically did not want these Jews as part of their community anymore and so it was easiest pastorally to just completely assimilate them.
02:02:20.158 -->
02:02:24.465But now we have a situation where we have a lot of Jewish converts, like we don't just have a few.
02:02:24.465 -->
02:02:29.395So like in my situation I live in the Pacific Northwest there's like no Jews out here.
02:02:29.395 -->
02:02:31.899I can't even find hollow bread at the grocery store, it's crazy.
02:02:31.899 -->
02:02:58.782And so like to me there are, like it would not change my life very much beyond maybe some private devotions and stuff, right, but it's a very different situation areas either where you have a large Jewish community in the diaspora or especially in Israel, where you have, like most of the people you're going to be evangelizing, there are Jews, and so can we actually be there, like Pius X said, with the priests, to baptize them and actually make an active effort within the Holy Land to evangelize them there.
02:02:58.942 -->
02:03:09.328And I also think I don't want to get into the politics too much, but it would really change the conflict if we had a large number of Catholics on each side of the conflict who can then come together and be peacemakers within the conflict.
02:03:09.328 -->
02:03:46.060I don't want to get into the details of it I know everyone has their own opinion about it and stuff, but like, for example, I've heard many of the Jewish Catholics there will join the Arab Catholics in the pilgrimage to Our Lady of Palestine, and many of these Jewish Catholics and I know one, for example, who's very involved, who serves in the IDF and stuff even so, we'll do stuff that I'm sure a lot of people here would not be happy with, but he is there with his Arab brothers, heavily engaging with them, working together with them, and so I really do think this also could be a solution to peacemaking that we can come together there as Arabs and Jews in one church, together, worshiping together, even if there might still be some political disagreements that remain.
02:03:47.069 -->
02:03:49.498Well, if anything can unite them, it's going to be our lady, right?
02:03:49.498 -->
02:03:52.760So if they're going to see our lady of Palestine together, it would be our lady.
02:03:52.760 -->
02:03:58.230So, man Gideon, I have work at 4 am, so I do have to wrap this man, oh God.
02:03:58.292 -->
02:03:59.775We had one question that someone.
02:03:59.775 -->
02:04:03.697It's back from the evolution debate, but someone did ask that we ask it.
02:04:03.697 -->
02:04:12.738So they were wondering if you've heard of the rational seed like a proto evolution type of idea developed by St Augustine.
02:04:13.400 -->
02:04:17.434Yes, it'll be an idea you have in St Augustine St Bonaventure especially receives that.
02:04:17.434 -->
02:04:25.698It's in St Thomas a little bit that essentially God implanted the ability for creation to diversify more after its initial creation.
02:04:25.698 -->
02:04:29.716But the thing is this is actually accepted by most creation scientists.
02:04:29.716 -->
02:04:31.820So most creation scientists.
02:04:31.820 -->
02:04:36.323They don't think that God made lions and tigers and house cats all individually.
02:04:36.323 -->
02:04:46.761The general view that's developed is something called baromenology, that God created one original type of cat but then differentiated into house cats and lions and tigers and leopards and so on.
02:04:46.890 -->
02:04:49.197We actually see that happen in life.
02:04:49.859 -->
02:04:50.301Exactly.
02:04:50.301 -->
02:04:52.753But this traditional view.
02:04:52.753 -->
02:04:56.182It presumes God places diversity within an existing nature.
02:04:56.182 -->
02:05:02.073So God places the seminal reasons are that there already are distinct natures that then diversify.
02:05:02.073 -->
02:05:13.243I actually wanted to write a paper for a Protestant creation conference, actually telling them like, hey, you guys should be going back to metaphysics because there's a whole debate among them right now.
02:05:13.243 -->
02:05:19.006But how do we actually explain this diversifying so quickly Because it has to happen within like a few hundred years after the flood?
02:05:19.006 -->
02:05:20.488How do we explain this?
02:05:20.488 -->
02:05:22.390Because it has to happen within like a few hundred years after the flood?
02:05:22.390 -->
02:05:41.997How do we explain this and I actually think we have the answer in our Catholic tradition with this metaphysics of the seminal reasons that we can actually say metaphysically, god implanted within the soul of these animals the formal cause, the ability to have distinct powers that are only later actualized upon this diversification, and so I think to answer this they can't just use natural science.
02:05:41.997 -->
02:05:44.037You need metaphysics to fully answer these questions.
02:05:44.951 -->
02:05:46.257That makes perfect sense to me.
02:05:46.257 -->
02:06:03.800Like that makes perfect sense to me and that whole thing, because you see that happening right, like we've talked about I've used this example a hundred times and when you bring European pigs over to America, they develop tusks and in a very short period of time, in like 60, 70 years, they developed tusks.
02:06:03.819 -->
02:06:09.474So something like that actually makes very when God created Romans, he knew there'd be Sicilians eventually.
02:06:09.854 -->
02:06:15.212Absolutely and perfected them, perfected the Romans and the Sicilians.
02:06:15.474 -->
02:06:17.139The African people are not perfected.
02:06:21.171 -->
02:06:22.256Just got us all canceled there.
02:06:22.256 -->
02:06:23.916Thank you so much.
02:06:23.916 -->
02:06:26.438I want to mention one thing on the Augustine.
02:06:26.438 -->
02:06:27.716We had a better note, matt.
02:06:27.716 -->
02:06:30.177With Augustine there's an interesting thing, right.
02:06:30.177 -->
02:06:39.713People will often say like, oh, this will often say like Neanderthals and like Homo erectus, these other humans that might've looked pretty different than us, they're still humans, right, and they're sending from Adam.
02:06:39.713 -->
02:06:44.793And people will say how could you possibly say that?
02:06:44.793 -->
02:06:46.381St Augustine has a discussion about what about the dog-headed people?
02:06:46.381 -->
02:06:51.751And he says, no, the dog-headed people, they must also be descended from Noah and they just had, like, something that caused them to grow these dog heads instead of these human heads.
02:06:51.751 -->
02:06:56.542So St Augustine can accept that like dog-headed people, like, are descended from Noah.
02:07:05.390 -->
02:07:11.448I think it's not a big issue for us to say like andrethals are probably descended from noah yeah, like if you, if you did look, there are people that have handicaps too right like there are people who are oh yeah, you know, and people are deformed if their body gets fossilized.
02:07:11.448 -->
02:07:12.070You dig them up later.
02:07:12.070 -->
02:07:14.298You think there's a whole race of people that look like that.
02:07:14.298 -->
02:07:18.155You don't know what you're digging up oh, what did pam acker say?
02:07:18.176 -->
02:07:24.195like if someone dug up Shaquille O'Neal next to a race of giants, you think it's two separate races.
02:07:25.139 -->
02:07:27.074Yeah, so, gideon.
02:07:27.074 -->
02:07:27.698Thank you, man.
02:07:27.698 -->
02:07:35.520I hope everybody goes and checks out the conference June 6th to June 8th in Steubenville and yeah, we'll do this again, man.
02:07:35.520 -->
02:07:35.859Thank you.
02:07:36.100 -->
02:07:36.983Yeah, this was awesome.
02:07:37.369 -->
02:07:38.371Yeah, thanks for having me on.
02:07:38.371 -->
02:07:39.751All right, we'll do it again.
02:07:39.751 -->
02:07:40.391Take us out Absolutely.
02:07:40.391 -->
02:07:40.631Thank you.
