Mixed Heritage: Finding Wholeness Between Chinese and Kiwi Worlds | A Conversation with Rose Li

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Welcome to Authentic Leadership Podcast, Rose.
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It's really an honour to have you because I think
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there's a lot that we can talk about. But as
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usual, I let my guests introduce themselves.
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So would you like to introduce yourself? Yeah,
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so Kia ora, I'm Rose. My whanau comes from China,
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in Shanghai in China on my dad's side, and then
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England on my mum's side. And my English side
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came to New Zealand. 1842 and then my dad came
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to New Zealand from Shanghai in 1995 I just learned
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I thought I better ask him awesome yeah so that
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was cool to find out because I always thought
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he'd been here for a lot longer yeah I was going
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to say because I came in 2001 so he'll be here
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just about six years before me yeah so like not
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that long at all yeah And also you'll find out
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about your mum's site as well when her great
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-grandparents came to New Zealand. Yeah, that
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one I already knew because my grandma was like,
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this is important, Rose, learn it. And she took
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us because they came in a ship and landed in
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Nelson. And their names are sort of like on the
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stone thing. So she took us down and she was
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like, that's what your family came down on. And
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I was like, yeah. She brought it all together
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to share with the whole extended family. And
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she still lives with us now. 87 and a half. Wow.
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And she like still goes to the gym every morning
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and goes for a swim. She's great. She still goes
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to the gym and goes to swim. She still swims
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one kilometre every morning. So your father came
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from Shanghai, China and your mum is Kiwi and
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New Zealander. How is it to like growing up with
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a Chinese father and a Pākehā mum? In our household.
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Well, in our household, we also had my grandma
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and my sister, who's a year younger. And growing
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up, I thought it was quite normal. But I guess
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looking back, it wasn't necessarily. My dad never
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learned much English. Yeah. So he knows a couple
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of words, but not sentences. And my grandma speaks
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to him, he'll just hold his head and be like,
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don't understand. So he teaches Tai Chi. Yes.
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But during the day, he doesn't work. So we would
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spend time with him. when we were little. Do
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you also speak Mandarin with your father? I never
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considered this being like not normal, but when
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we were little, we learned English first. Yes.
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Because everyone in our family spoke English
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except my dad. And then my grandma was saying
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ages ago, like she was worried that like we weren't
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going to learn Mandarin because then how are
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we going to speak with our dad? And, you know,
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because like we were like one, two, like three
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years old and like there was no, like no Mandarin.
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Only English. And then she said like one day
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she heard us like coming up the stairs, just
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like babbling with our dad, speaking like totally
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fluent Mandarin with no accent or anything. So
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he's been speaking Mandarin to you both, but
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is this probably at an age you're still able
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to pick up Mandarin? Yeah, that was kind of great
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because then we never had to like learn how to
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speak. Then do you go to a private tuition for...
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mandarin or chinese we did for a short while
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um and we didn't want to go because me and my
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sister went at the same time and we were both
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at the same level and it was a little bit of
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ego actually because she was like younger than
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me but like honestly a little bit better so instead
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of becoming a better person i was just like i
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don't want to go anymore and then also at school
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we like to do lots of activities because you
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know our dad kept all the Chinese cultural values
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and my mum very much lent into those so he was
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like you got to take up like education is really
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important you got to take up like all the opportunities
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so we would go to school it's actually quite
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cute seeing as my dad didn't work during the
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day he would catch the bus with us and drop us
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off at primary school and then he would walk
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all the way home and then in the afternoon he
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would walk all the way to school and then catch
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the bus home with us and it was lovely but after
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school we would normally have like you know how
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in school there's the PE shed and you can hire
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out like balls and stuff after school. We would
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do that quite often so he'd come a little bit
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later. We sort of just did a lot of extra because
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it was sport related. So you have a lot of fond
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memories from your childhood especially with
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your father. Oh 100 % like it was so great and
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then also somewhat important context. My dad
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speaks full Mandarin and very minimal English
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and then my mom grew up speaking English and
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that's it. When they met, my mom was like, she
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met my dad teaching Tai Chi and she just learned
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Mandarin from books in the 90s because there
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was no Google or anything. And she got fluent
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enough that she could go to China and they went
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there and lived there for a little bit. And she
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just like lived. She had enough language to sort
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of live there, which is awesome. Wow. Your mom
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must really love your father. Yeah. And that
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stuck with me so much because I never thought
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about it at all. Because they always speak about
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it in the most unromantic way. I was like, I
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remember asking them like, oh, when you got married,
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did you have a nice dress? And like, does dad
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in a suit? And how do you deal with it? Because
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you're so tall and he's so short. But no, they
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just went and signed the paper and they're like,
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you're married now. And I was like, that's not
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romantic at all. Was it in New Zealand or back
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in China at the time? It was in New Zealand and
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they just did the paperwork. But it was really
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cute because like we did go back to China when
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I just finished primary school as a family. So
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like it was 2012 and we were in Shanghai, which
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is where like all my family is. And it was my
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first time meeting them. So I was so excited.
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And I'm used to being the oldest out of all my
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cousins. And we've got quite a lot of cousins
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in New Zealand. But in China, I was like the
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youngest and they were all adults. We went to
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like a big Chinese wedding. Everyone was so welcoming
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and lovely. And then we did these cool anniversary
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photos. So it was my mom and dad both got a little
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bit dressed up. And it was like the first time
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I ever saw them. You know, a real lovey -dovey
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couple, because that's not how they normally
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are. But it was quite nice. Yeah. And then me
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and my sister got dressed up in the most fluffy,
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like, fluff dresses. And we were little, so it
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was quite cute. But, interestingly, that was
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the first time I ever learnt culture was, like,
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an influence on my life. Because I always thought,
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like, in New Zealand, I was like, I'm just Kiwi,
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but I tan more than others. Because I'd always
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notice in school, like, there were international
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kids who, you know, had sort of the 1 .5 generation.
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Yes. And they were all marginalised. Mm. And
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I never really experienced that before being
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Chinese. When I met you, without you disclosing
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to me, I wouldn't even think that your father's
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Chinese. And also I think like culturally, I
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sort of act in what would be like a typical Kiwi
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way. That's really interesting because when we
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went to China and then also when I'm with Chinese
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friends, the language changes. I'll switch to
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Mandarin and then the worldview comes with it.
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So I do know all the customs and stuff quite
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well because my dad's sort of like traditional.
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And they all come in, but they only come with
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the language. And then in English, I just sort
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of have that worldview, plus a couple of strange
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things. Like people just see them as, oh, you're
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really friendly. Go out and get takeaways. Normally
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you order a plate and then everyone shares them.
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And then my sister was telling me that her boyfriend
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went to get some takeaways and she just assumed
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they would share and he didn't want to. And she
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was really surprised. It's the same with me as
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well. You always first came to New Zealand when
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you eat. with your classmates, you share the
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dishes. So when everybody starts eating their
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own dishes, huh, you don't share. So that was
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the first learning that I picked up. Because
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like what you say, most of the Asian food, they
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cook in a way that enable you to share. But if
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you have sandwich, how do you share it? Even
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the Western food design in a way that is not
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necessarily allowing you to share. Yeah. And
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the food thing is interesting. For breakfast,
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you know, like... You're weird if you have a
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sandwich and equally like you eat it in a single
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bowl and it's normally like some sort of cereal
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in the shape of a brick with dairy. Whereas we
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grew up with pafan, which is like rice, like
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boiled in water with like veggies and meat, which
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was great. It was so good. Just like what a great
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way to start the morning. It was delicious. And
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then sometimes eggs, you know, on toast. So like
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mix it up. But we were never a cereal family,
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which I always, I got so sad about it. You know,
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when people go to school with their packed lunches.
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When we went to school, we had sort of like European
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white lunch. And my mom would make these beautiful
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sandwiches and my dad would make homemade bread.
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And then I would literally like swap my sandwich
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for someone's cereal because it was like such
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a treat. Okay, about food. What is your favorite
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go -to food at home or if you go out? My dad's
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great. He does most of the dinner cookings because
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he's home during the day. Yum. And when he grew
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up, his mom cooked everything. And once she died.
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his brother cooked everything so he never really
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learned and then when he came to New Zealand
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he was like wow the food sucks people only season
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food with salt and pepper so he's learned a little
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bit but he does these really good stir -fried
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like broccoli and then separately he does a really
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good like stir -fried like dabote it's all like
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a cabbage see that's a funny one because my English
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is far better than my Mandarin but there are
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some words that I don't know in English because
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I don't use them which is funny like in English
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I'd just be like that veggie that I really like
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Oh, my dad loves making hong shou rou, which
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is my favorite thing in the world. It's the best.
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But for breakfast, we're very like, you know,
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like porridge or eggs or a bit of a mix. And
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then, you know, lunch is normally leftovers.
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Do you cook at all then? Yeah, I do cook. But
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I've realized that if I cook anything Chinese,
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it's always like a special thing. I was making
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dumplings from scratch for Chinese New Year last
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year. And it was so funny because I had not made
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them in a really long time. And our dad used
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to make them with us when we were younger, but
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he would buy the wrappers. And I was like, I'm
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going to be extra fancy and make the wrappers.
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So I mixed the flour and the hot water together
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and then put it in a roll and then put it through
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the pasta maker. So there was this big, long
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sheet. And then I put it on and cut out holes
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with a wine glass. And my dad was like, what
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are you doing? He was like. So confused. And
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I was like, they're perfectly thin and they're
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like perfect circles. Like, what are you talking
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about? And he's like, no, you just break a bit
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off. And then he got this and rolled it into
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like a perfect circle. And he's like, and like
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this. And I was like, but we've done the same
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thing. And he's like, no, no, no, you've done
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it wrong. And I was like, okay, not impressed.
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And then also when we were making, because you
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know how you can just do the crimp, but if you're
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going to the effort to make them, you got to
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do the little pleats. And I was doing it and
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my dad was just like sitting over my shoulder
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and he was like. you're going so slow we used
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to do this so much faster you know all the little
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old ladies in china they just do it with their
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eyes closed super fast and then you'll be like
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no no it's fine you've been great so can i ask
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you these questions did you have a moment where
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you realize that ah you actually live in both
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cultures um i think i think there's lots of like
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little things that all add up one that one that
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stands out is like birthday parties yes My parents
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were great. They let me have like Western birthday
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parties and just like invite all my friends over
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and like play dress -ups in the house and do
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little shows. And it was really fun. But the
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one thing that they were very strict on is that
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like when people bring you presents, it's extremely
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rude to open them while they're there. Yeah,
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that's the Western thing. Because like, you know,
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Western kids always like open their presents
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and sort of like show off, which is like not
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really what you do. and sort of like asian cultures
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yeah like fully western birthday party and like
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you know like classic western birthday party
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food like cheesels and like those like red little
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sausage things with like so many sweets you'll
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feel sick but then like for the presents thing
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they're like no you can't open them and then
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like people would be like oh that's really weird
00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:35.159
like why aren't your parents letting you open
00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:36.759
your presents and then like one of my friends
00:11:36.759 --> 00:11:38.240
got like really concerned they were like are
00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:40.120
they going to give them to you and i was like
00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:41.919
i was like yeah yeah no they definitely will
00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:44.120
like i'll just open them later but i felt i felt
00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:46.259
really weird because i never i never thought
00:11:46.259 --> 00:11:48.970
of doing it Any other way. When I first learned
00:11:48.970 --> 00:11:51.289
that you open your gift in front of us, I was
00:11:51.289 --> 00:11:54.110
equally shocked because I, huh, so that's how
00:11:54.110 --> 00:11:56.889
you do it here. I always felt more like I lived
00:11:56.889 --> 00:11:59.450
in Kiwi culture. And also I think my dad was
00:11:59.450 --> 00:12:01.429
like set on like assimilating. So he was like
00:12:01.429 --> 00:12:03.470
very keen for us to do that anyway. But then
00:12:03.470 --> 00:12:05.649
when we went back to China, you know that feeling
00:12:05.649 --> 00:12:07.090
of you're like, oh, I just really don't fit.
00:12:08.580 --> 00:12:10.259
Like everywhere. I'm like, oh, maybe it's because
00:12:10.259 --> 00:12:12.500
I'm like math stork or something because in school
00:12:12.500 --> 00:12:14.429
I was really good at it. math and I never ever
00:12:14.429 --> 00:12:16.950
connected it to culture ever until like we went
00:12:16.950 --> 00:12:19.450
to China and like there was someone who came
00:12:19.450 --> 00:12:23.100
over at my like dad's brother's house and they're
00:12:23.100 --> 00:12:24.820
like oh like where are you from and I was like
00:12:24.820 --> 00:12:27.899
oh I'm like a little bit Chinese and then my
00:12:27.899 --> 00:12:29.919
dad's brother butted in he was like oh no you're
00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:31.860
Chinese I was like you know there's probably
00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:34.480
like a little bit I saw like one China mentality
00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:37.100
behind that but like it was really nice it was
00:12:37.100 --> 00:12:39.240
so nice and I was like oh my goodness I'm allowed
00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:42.340
to be I'm allowed to be part of this world saw
00:12:42.340 --> 00:12:44.340
like permission to be part of that world and
00:12:44.340 --> 00:12:46.179
it was really nice actually I was so touched
00:12:46.179 --> 00:12:47.840
I was still quite little and I was just like
00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:49.759
I need to go pee and then I went to the toilet
00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:51.899
and had like a little cry because that was really
00:12:51.899 --> 00:12:54.120
nice because you're growing up you also sense
00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:56.320
that there's something else that you don't really
00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:58.980
feel like you fit into the culture or the world
00:12:58.980 --> 00:13:01.799
that you live in because of probably the culture
00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:04.299
yeah and then also they're like fitting within
00:13:04.299 --> 00:13:06.580
the culture is so different you know my dad he
00:13:06.580 --> 00:13:09.840
just turned 72 so he's kind of old and then The
00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:11.879
other thing is he's a Tai Chi master and he always
00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:14.679
told us stories from when he grew up and people
00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:16.539
would line the street and he would go to these
00:13:16.539 --> 00:13:20.379
fights and he's really short. And he would win
00:13:20.379 --> 00:13:21.840
and they would line the streets and carry him
00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:23.919
out. And then I was like, that's a lovely story.
00:13:24.139 --> 00:13:27.019
And then ha ha ha ha ha. Our grandma would tell
00:13:27.019 --> 00:13:29.440
us creative stories while we were falling to
00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:31.440
bed too. So I put them in the same class. I was
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:33.139
like, it's made up, it's fiction. Anyway, when
00:13:33.139 --> 00:13:35.460
we went to China, we realized people all went
00:13:35.460 --> 00:13:39.580
to the park to meet him. every morning and bought
00:13:39.580 --> 00:13:41.960
him gifts every morning and took him to like
00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:44.080
the best restaurants in town for like lunch and
00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:46.440
dinner and he was like oh but my family and then
00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:48.820
they were like bring them too we'll ask out for
00:13:48.820 --> 00:13:51.019
all of them and it was really overwhelming because
00:13:51.019 --> 00:13:54.259
we really thought it was a nice story that he
00:13:54.259 --> 00:13:57.159
told us and not real and then like coming back
00:13:57.159 --> 00:13:59.059
was interesting because I never thought of living
00:13:59.059 --> 00:14:01.879
in two worlds really but then coming back I remember
00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:04.289
thinking about quite a lot like We get to live
00:14:04.289 --> 00:14:05.730
in this world where it's very chill. There's
00:14:05.730 --> 00:14:08.070
not many expectations that we got great at Tai
00:14:08.070 --> 00:14:12.210
Chi or that I can't write, so I can only speak.
00:14:12.409 --> 00:14:15.129
And there was sort of no real expectations around
00:14:15.129 --> 00:14:16.990
that. So we got to live fully in this world.
00:14:17.070 --> 00:14:18.970
But then as I've gotten a little bit older, I
00:14:18.970 --> 00:14:21.370
felt sort of almost with urgency that I've got
00:14:21.370 --> 00:14:23.750
to preserve and strengthen every little bit of
00:14:23.750 --> 00:14:26.350
my Chinese side because it's very easy to sort
00:14:26.350 --> 00:14:29.470
of lose. Your father is a well -respected Tai
00:14:29.470 --> 00:14:33.169
Chi master back in China. Yeah. insane and then
00:14:33.169 --> 00:14:35.070
like his students in new zealand sort of like
00:14:35.070 --> 00:14:37.490
take it a lot more casually well i mean i guess
00:14:37.490 --> 00:14:39.450
one massive sign of respect is that a lot of
00:14:39.450 --> 00:14:41.929
them are kiwi and they've all my dad does not
00:14:41.929 --> 00:14:43.970
learn english the reason why he didn't do it
00:14:43.970 --> 00:14:46.370
was because he he tried to learn it when he first
00:14:46.370 --> 00:14:48.470
came and he did a little bit and then my mom
00:14:48.470 --> 00:14:50.570
was nagging him too much and he just had a tantrum
00:14:50.570 --> 00:14:52.210
he was like i'm never gonna learn it ever again
00:14:52.210 --> 00:14:54.470
and then when he told me he was like actually
00:14:54.470 --> 00:14:55.789
it was a really good thing because otherwise
00:14:55.789 --> 00:14:57.470
you guys wouldn't have known any mandarin and
00:14:57.470 --> 00:15:00.720
i was like yeah true yeah But also he's still
00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:03.279
teaching Tai Chi and he still have his students
00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:05.779
and all that. Yeah, and most of his students
00:15:05.779 --> 00:15:07.620
are sort of like, you know, Kiwi. So they've
00:15:07.620 --> 00:15:09.919
all just learned Mandarin. Because of him? Yeah.
00:15:10.279 --> 00:15:13.080
Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, it is pretty nice.
00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.860
Yeah. So do you learn Tai Chi at all? No, I mean,
00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:18.899
we did for a short amount of time. Me and my
00:15:18.899 --> 00:15:20.580
sister were learning it before school, but my
00:15:20.580 --> 00:15:22.940
dad's like a real perfectionist. So he'd be like,
00:15:23.019 --> 00:15:25.120
this is the first move. He'd be like, do it a
00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:27.419
thousand times. We were in primary school and
00:15:27.419 --> 00:15:29.379
I was the oldest and my youngest sister was with
00:15:29.379 --> 00:15:31.220
me. And I'd do it and then he'd come and look
00:15:31.220 --> 00:15:32.820
at it on the thousandth time and he'd be like,
00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:34.840
just change this one bit. I'd be like, okay.
00:15:34.940 --> 00:15:37.139
And he'd be like, thousand times. Wow. So that
00:15:37.139 --> 00:15:39.139
didn't last very long. I don't think he was that
00:15:39.139 --> 00:15:41.039
strict with his other students, but I think it's
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:42.779
just because we were his kids. He was like, it'll
00:15:42.779 --> 00:15:45.360
be perfect. True. Because you have to preserve
00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:48.039
the name. Yeah. But then it's quite nice because
00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:50.440
he sort of frames it as like, he sort of did
00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:53.210
what he did to like the best that he could. And
00:15:53.210 --> 00:15:55.429
then for me and my sister, he's kept the same
00:15:55.429 --> 00:15:57.710
mindset, but then said it doesn't have to be
00:15:57.710 --> 00:15:59.730
Tai Chi. So I didn't do very well in school.
00:15:59.830 --> 00:16:03.230
He was very supportive, but I think quietly a
00:16:03.970 --> 00:16:06.870
little bit sad in himself. But then when my sister,
00:16:07.049 --> 00:16:10.090
she's an engineer now, and I sort of did some
00:16:10.090 --> 00:16:12.909
health science -y things. He's so proud, so proud.
00:16:13.070 --> 00:16:15.450
So he's very supportive of that sort of thing,
00:16:15.529 --> 00:16:18.210
which is interesting because it is still like
00:16:18.210 --> 00:16:20.610
be the best, sort of give the best that you can
00:16:20.610 --> 00:16:23.360
for what you do, but like transferred into. something
00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:25.539
else it doesn't have to be tai chi or whatever
00:16:25.539 --> 00:16:29.240
but just be the best or whatever you do and give
00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:32.340
your best yeah yeah very much it's never had
00:16:32.340 --> 00:16:34.700
to be tai chi like he was very like encouraging
00:16:34.700 --> 00:16:37.539
of us at school i did like ballet for a little
00:16:37.539 --> 00:16:40.980
while and i was so untalented really the worst
00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:44.000
and he let us do it for like quite a long time
00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:46.220
um and he was like oh just keep trying just keep
00:16:46.220 --> 00:16:48.440
trying you did you did better than last time
00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:50.679
He's, like, Chinese, so he's very honest. Like,
00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:52.320
he would never say you did great if you didn't
00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:54.580
do great. So, like, he was like, yeah, you did
00:16:54.580 --> 00:16:59.000
better than last time. Like, good job. And then,
00:16:59.019 --> 00:17:01.200
like, and then eventually I was like, I'm really
00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:04.019
bad at this. It's so funny. You're right. Chinese
00:17:04.019 --> 00:17:06.640
terrorists would never say you are the best when
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.319
you are not. No. If they say you are the best,
00:17:09.380 --> 00:17:11.059
it's like they're saying it as a fact. Like,
00:17:11.140 --> 00:17:13.980
you actually did the best. Yeah, in the Western
00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:16.269
world. And the parents will probably praise the
00:17:16.269 --> 00:17:18.309
kids, even though they might not be the best,
00:17:18.430 --> 00:17:20.670
so that they can have the confidence that Asian
00:17:20.670 --> 00:17:22.750
parents will never do that. No way. They will
00:17:22.750 --> 00:17:25.470
tell you how good you are, but they will appreciate
00:17:25.470 --> 00:17:27.630
your effort. Yeah, I always found, I mean, I
00:17:27.630 --> 00:17:29.190
guess that's one of the living in two worlds
00:17:29.190 --> 00:17:31.920
thing. I think I'd do it. My dad would always
00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:35.920
be very honest. Sometimes he didn't do very well,
00:17:35.980 --> 00:17:39.339
not as an insult, but just as constructive feedback
00:17:39.339 --> 00:17:42.029
or something. you know like old school if I was
00:17:42.029 --> 00:17:43.890
crying about something he'd be like oh just don't
00:17:43.890 --> 00:17:48.549
cry like really so lovingly but then I remember
00:17:48.549 --> 00:17:50.930
seeing other people's parents and I'd be like
00:17:50.930 --> 00:17:53.470
wow you must really hate your kids because they'd
00:17:53.470 --> 00:17:55.849
tell their kids oh you're the best no they're
00:17:55.849 --> 00:17:57.750
not the best and then well they'd be sitting
00:17:57.750 --> 00:17:59.630
there with their kids doing a lot of emotional
00:17:59.630 --> 00:18:01.890
stuff that seems very uncomfortable for both
00:18:01.890 --> 00:18:04.440
of you and then I think That came across not
00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:06.579
as a cultural thing, but it was more like being
00:18:06.579 --> 00:18:09.119
a bit weird. So what about your mum? How is she
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:12.279
like compared to your dad? Well, my mum, I think
00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:14.200
they're like the perfect couple because my mum
00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:16.980
was like extremely, extremely shy when she was
00:18:16.980 --> 00:18:19.220
younger. She said she didn't really like have
00:18:19.220 --> 00:18:23.880
that huge amount of friends because like she
00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:25.559
just like didn't want to talk to people. So I
00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:27.079
think when she met my dad, it like did her quite
00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:28.799
well because she doesn't like doing things on
00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:31.569
her own. So I think the sort of like... sort
00:18:31.569 --> 00:18:33.809
of values, they did it quite well. And I remember
00:18:33.809 --> 00:18:35.910
me and my sister used to always joke, my dad's
00:18:35.910 --> 00:18:37.750
the Chinese one, but my mom's the dragon mom.
00:18:37.910 --> 00:18:40.390
She got those melted into the culture quite well.
00:18:40.529 --> 00:18:42.730
And also she lived in China for a couple of years.
00:18:43.450 --> 00:18:46.609
Who are you closer to? There's like a nice balance
00:18:46.609 --> 00:18:48.930
in my family. Without a doubt, I'm closer to
00:18:48.930 --> 00:18:51.309
my dad and my sister's closer to my mom. And
00:18:51.309 --> 00:18:53.130
then to sort of balance that out, I look more
00:18:53.130 --> 00:18:55.029
like my mom and my sister looks more like my
00:18:55.029 --> 00:18:57.410
dad. Would people recognize you both as sisters?
00:18:58.000 --> 00:18:59.819
Sometimes they get that we're sisters. They always
00:18:59.819 --> 00:19:01.480
think that she's older, which is not the case.
00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:04.220
Yeah, but a lot of people don't think that we're
00:19:04.220 --> 00:19:05.680
sisters. A lot of people are quite surprised,
00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:07.440
yeah. I guess we all look quite different. I
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:09.160
don't look much like my mum because she's white.
00:19:09.500 --> 00:19:11.319
One thing I did get from my mum is when I'm really
00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:13.720
warm, my cheeks go real pink or embarrassed or
00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:16.519
shy or something. So I'm definitely more like
00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:18.859
my dad. My sister's more like my mum. I look
00:19:18.859 --> 00:19:20.460
more like my mum, but my sister looks more like
00:19:20.460 --> 00:19:23.940
my dad. But then my Mandarin's good. I could
00:19:23.940 --> 00:19:27.069
sort of go to China and... you know like go about
00:19:27.069 --> 00:19:29.269
my day and have no issues but I'd have an accent
00:19:29.269 --> 00:19:32.130
like a sort of like English accent but like my
00:19:32.130 --> 00:19:34.250
sister who's only like a year and four months
00:19:34.250 --> 00:19:36.490
younger I was like in a totally different boat
00:19:36.490 --> 00:19:38.109
I felt really bad because like we were going
00:19:38.109 --> 00:19:41.410
out for dinner and me and my dad were just talking
00:19:41.410 --> 00:19:43.650
and one of his friends whose Chinese was also
00:19:43.650 --> 00:19:45.269
there and we were just talking and afterwards
00:19:45.269 --> 00:19:46.970
my sister was really sad and she was like you
00:19:46.970 --> 00:19:48.970
guys were just like making fun of me the whole
00:19:48.970 --> 00:19:51.849
time and then I was like what are you talking
00:19:51.849 --> 00:19:53.589
about because like we weren't And then she was
00:19:53.589 --> 00:19:54.990
like, oh, you said blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:19:55.049 --> 00:19:56.769
And she heard like one part of the conversation
00:19:56.769 --> 00:19:58.730
and then didn't quite understand the rest. And
00:19:58.730 --> 00:20:00.109
she just thought that we were making fun of her
00:20:00.109 --> 00:20:02.529
for the whole conversation, but we weren't. We
00:20:02.529 --> 00:20:04.789
were just having a normal chit chat. But her
00:20:04.789 --> 00:20:07.630
fluency wasn't quite there enough to follow.
00:20:08.130 --> 00:20:10.470
Yeah. Which is crazy because like we grew up
00:20:10.470 --> 00:20:13.769
in the same. Yeah. In the same house. Yeah. So
00:20:13.769 --> 00:20:16.289
probably because you talk to your father more
00:20:16.289 --> 00:20:20.690
often than she talked to your dad. You think
00:20:20.690 --> 00:20:22.829
that could be the reason or because you also
00:20:22.829 --> 00:20:25.609
have more Chinese friends outside of family?
00:20:26.009 --> 00:20:27.930
That's a good point. I'm not aware of my sister
00:20:27.930 --> 00:20:31.819
having any Chinese friends, whereas I had a couple.
00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:34.680
Although I never felt quite at home with my Chinese
00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:37.880
friends because how respect looks very different
00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:40.720
in Asian cultures than it does to Yui cultures.
00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:42.559
And I always got like really nervous about coming
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:44.740
off as accidentally rude or something. So yeah,
00:20:44.819 --> 00:20:46.759
I don't know if I actually had that many Chinese
00:20:46.759 --> 00:20:49.460
friends except during primary. It's interesting
00:20:49.460 --> 00:20:51.769
because... I always wonder if I'd grown up in
00:20:51.769 --> 00:20:53.410
China, whether I would have looked more Chinese.
00:20:53.890 --> 00:20:56.329
Because your mannerism, your hairstyle and all
00:20:56.329 --> 00:20:59.289
that would be more Chinese, of course. Yeah.
00:20:59.490 --> 00:21:01.609
And there's this one picture of me that got given
00:21:01.609 --> 00:21:03.690
this lotus thing. And I think I was wearing like
00:21:03.690 --> 00:21:05.910
a shower cap or something as a joke. And it was
00:21:05.910 --> 00:21:07.809
one of those like crunchy pink shower caps. And
00:21:07.809 --> 00:21:09.549
it was like my cute little straight across fringe.
00:21:09.589 --> 00:21:11.230
And it looked like I had a bob and holding this
00:21:11.230 --> 00:21:12.730
plant. And I was sitting next to my dad, like
00:21:12.730 --> 00:21:14.430
looking all happy. And I was like... My goodness,
00:21:14.509 --> 00:21:17.589
I look so Chinese. That must be a very cute photo.
00:21:18.009 --> 00:21:19.910
It was so cute. I just imagined like another
00:21:19.910 --> 00:21:22.049
life like flash before my eyes. That could have
00:21:22.049 --> 00:21:23.990
been quite different. Because when your mom's
00:21:23.990 --> 00:21:26.730
dad was in China, they could have stayed and
00:21:26.730 --> 00:21:29.450
you would have been in China growing up instead
00:21:29.450 --> 00:21:32.009
of New Zealand. Think about that so much because
00:21:32.009 --> 00:21:34.150
obviously now I'm in such a privileged position
00:21:34.150 --> 00:21:36.849
again to do my master's at AUT and then also
00:21:36.849 --> 00:21:40.509
working here. I was such a privilege to be able
00:21:40.509 --> 00:21:42.710
to do school in New Zealand because in China,
00:21:42.789 --> 00:21:45.490
I just never would have stood a chance because
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:47.619
I didn't do very well. I left high school without
00:21:47.619 --> 00:21:50.799
university entrance. So like obviously in China,
00:21:50.819 --> 00:21:53.059
you're just not going to university. And I imagine
00:21:53.059 --> 00:21:54.700
I probably just would have done Tai Chi or something.
00:21:56.019 --> 00:21:59.599
But yeah, no, you do get more. like second and
00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:01.880
third and fourth chances here. I'm now a good
00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:04.619
student back home because of my ADHD. If not
00:22:04.619 --> 00:22:06.220
because of New Zealand, I wouldn't have given
00:22:06.220 --> 00:22:08.079
a second chance too. I know where you're coming
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:11.619
from. Back home in Malaysia, I consider a worse
00:22:11.619 --> 00:22:14.299
student. I just couldn't follow the curriculum.
00:22:14.619 --> 00:22:17.880
So there's no way I would be able to excel or
00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:20.700
even society will look at me or give me a second
00:22:20.700 --> 00:22:23.579
chance really because I'm just not good at study.
00:22:24.299 --> 00:22:27.940
So now as an adult, how would you identify yourself?
00:22:28.609 --> 00:22:30.829
When people ask you, like, what are you? I'm
00:22:30.829 --> 00:22:32.970
always like, I'm Chinese. Because going back
00:22:32.970 --> 00:22:34.609
to when I was in China, they were like, you're
00:22:34.609 --> 00:22:36.470
Chinese. And I was like, oh, that's nice. So
00:22:36.470 --> 00:22:38.589
I'll sort of take that one and then like flesh
00:22:38.589 --> 00:22:41.769
it out after that. But then how do I identify
00:22:41.769 --> 00:22:44.650
myself? I guess that's sort of it. How do you
00:22:44.650 --> 00:22:47.549
identify yourself? I know it's a hard one too,
00:22:47.670 --> 00:22:49.930
because I still see myself as Malaysian Chinese.
00:22:50.190 --> 00:22:53.970
Like that's still how I introduce myself, even
00:22:53.970 --> 00:22:57.029
though I hold New Zealand passport and that's
00:22:57.029 --> 00:23:00.289
my nationality. That's why I can connect to 1
00:23:00.289 --> 00:23:03.190
.5 second generation in a sense. You're kind
00:23:03.190 --> 00:23:06.170
of like here, but not quite here. There, but
00:23:06.170 --> 00:23:09.210
not really there at the same time. I feel fortunate
00:23:09.210 --> 00:23:13.009
to be able to walk in both worlds as well. Yeah,
00:23:13.009 --> 00:23:14.690
no, it is sort of interesting. I think if you'd
00:23:14.690 --> 00:23:17.329
asked me when I was a little bit younger, I probably
00:23:17.329 --> 00:23:19.809
would have said, I'm Kiwi. But yeah, I think
00:23:19.809 --> 00:23:21.970
as I've been thinking about it more, when I decided
00:23:21.970 --> 00:23:24.029
that it really mattered was when I was trying
00:23:24.029 --> 00:23:26.470
to write down my name in Mandarin. Yes. And I
00:23:26.470 --> 00:23:28.740
forgot. I couldn't even remember it. And I was
00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:30.460
looking up, like I was looking up on my phone,
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:32.220
like typing in the pinyin, but I couldn't remember
00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:34.099
the right accent to put on the second character.
00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:36.440
And I was like, oh, there's only four options.
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:38.960
But I couldn't even identify it looking at them.
00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:40.940
And I was like, I've actually forgotten my name.
00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:43.359
So then I went and like, you know, like when
00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:45.319
I got home, you know, I asked my dad, I was like,
00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:46.420
how do I write my name? And he's like, what are
00:23:46.420 --> 00:23:47.839
you even talking about? And I was like, I forgot
00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:49.839
how to write my name. He just looked at me, like
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:51.380
his face went white. He was like, oh no, I've
00:23:51.380 --> 00:23:53.140
done something wrong. Anyway, and then he showed
00:23:53.140 --> 00:23:54.960
me and he was like, just remember it now, okay?
00:23:55.450 --> 00:23:58.670
So your li is the mu zi li, like the wood. My
00:23:58.670 --> 00:24:01.569
actual name is Zhen Hong. Li Zhen Hong? Yeah.
00:24:02.009 --> 00:24:05.369
It's a beautiful name. You know what? I spent
00:24:05.369 --> 00:24:07.490
my whole childhood really hating that name because
00:24:07.490 --> 00:24:10.450
I thought, because rose and then Zhen Hong, if
00:24:10.450 --> 00:24:12.529
you translate it directly, sort of just means
00:24:12.529 --> 00:24:15.930
like really red. And I was like, what a stupid
00:24:15.930 --> 00:24:18.750
name, like really red rose. And like also my
00:24:18.750 --> 00:24:21.519
cheeks go red when I'm nervous. And I was like,
00:24:21.619 --> 00:24:24.000
you're just making fun of me. Like, I'm so mad.
00:24:24.220 --> 00:24:27.119
Anyway. That's so funny though. But you're right.
00:24:27.380 --> 00:24:29.259
You're right. That's literally the translation
00:24:29.259 --> 00:24:33.839
of it. Yeah. Really rad. Yeah. Yeah. So I hated
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:35.720
it so much and I never let people know that it
00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:37.619
was my name. Like in school when they were like,
00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:39.059
oh, what's your middle name? I was like, I don't
00:24:39.059 --> 00:24:42.299
have one. Yeah. Yeah. But then, yeah, no, I've
00:24:42.299 --> 00:24:43.799
been thinking about it a lot since I couldn't
00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:45.740
remember how to write my name. So like now, whenever
00:24:45.740 --> 00:24:47.299
people are like, what, like, you got to write
00:24:47.299 --> 00:24:49.579
your name, I'm always like, Rose Jin Hong Lee.
00:24:49.819 --> 00:24:52.480
And then like, Yeah, just adding it in. Because
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:55.140
then also, an interesting thing being at uni
00:24:55.140 --> 00:24:57.220
is I did, like, some, like, Māori health papers.
00:24:57.339 --> 00:24:59.640
Yeah, yes. And then I just treated that as, like,
00:24:59.660 --> 00:25:01.259
another world. I was like, that's another worldview
00:25:01.259 --> 00:25:05.779
to my worldview, and my worldview is Kiwi, and
00:25:06.069 --> 00:25:08.549
that's a Māori worldview. And then I was like,
00:25:08.589 --> 00:25:09.910
oh, there are some things that sort of, like,
00:25:09.910 --> 00:25:12.509
overlap. And then that was when I was like, I
00:25:12.609 --> 00:25:14.269
do actually have, like, a little bit of a Chinese
00:25:14.269 --> 00:25:16.450
worldview too. And then through that, I just
00:25:16.450 --> 00:25:18.970
used a bit of, like, sense to be like. Zhen Hong
00:25:18.970 --> 00:25:20.710
doesn't actually mean really red when you say
00:25:20.710 --> 00:25:23.650
it in Chinese worldview. It means like true and
00:25:23.650 --> 00:25:25.890
stuff. You know, like how it talks about high
00:25:25.890 --> 00:25:28.910
context countries talk around the concept. And
00:25:28.910 --> 00:25:31.250
Hong is like red, but also like red symbolizes
00:25:31.250 --> 00:25:34.190
a lot. So I had like renewed pride in my name.
00:25:34.430 --> 00:25:36.809
Wow. I really like it. I was going to say, because
00:25:36.809 --> 00:25:40.289
Zhen also means something true. And also Hong,
00:25:40.390 --> 00:25:43.250
it can be red, but symbolize something else as
00:25:43.250 --> 00:25:45.289
well, like celebration and all that. So there's
00:25:45.289 --> 00:25:48.380
a lot more to unpack with your name. Even the
00:25:48.380 --> 00:25:50.240
sound of it, Li Zhenhong, actually is really
00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:52.440
nice. And I thought it's a beautiful name too.
00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:55.640
And I really like what you just say because identity
00:25:55.640 --> 00:26:00.500
is always evolving. And then it was so funny
00:26:00.500 --> 00:26:03.519
that I had to be learning about another group's
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:05.440
culture that I actually turned around and was
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:07.920
like, oh, I have a culture too. It sounds like
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:09.680
a bit of a silly thing to say out loud actually,
00:26:09.779 --> 00:26:12.119
but it felt quite a big thing. Not at all. You
00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:15.400
know why? When I studied at AUT, the only paper
00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:18.269
that I could identify with it. was Maori paper.
00:26:18.569 --> 00:26:21.609
And that's when I began to look at my culture
00:26:21.609 --> 00:26:24.470
differently because of Maori paper. So I know
00:26:24.470 --> 00:26:26.470
where you're coming from because Maori paper
00:26:26.470 --> 00:26:29.970
really teach you about seeing your own worldview
00:26:29.970 --> 00:26:33.569
and appreciate what your ancestors have bring
00:26:33.569 --> 00:26:37.329
forward to your places now. I would have never
00:26:37.329 --> 00:26:40.710
appreciate my own culture as much without doing
00:26:40.710 --> 00:26:43.509
that Maori paper. So I totally know where you're
00:26:43.509 --> 00:26:47.069
coming from. Yeah, so I'm going to China next
00:26:47.069 --> 00:26:50.680
year with my dad, my sister, my mum, and I'm
00:26:50.680 --> 00:26:53.180
so excited and also a little bit nervous because
00:26:53.180 --> 00:26:56.220
I do have a lot of positive memories there and
00:26:56.220 --> 00:26:58.440
I hope it's still good. I haven't changed too
00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:01.039
much that it's like a distant thing. It's such
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:03.279
an amazing opportunity to go with your mum and
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:05.920
dad and your sister as a whole family. I mean,
00:27:05.940 --> 00:27:08.019
that kind of opportunity wouldn't come again.
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:10.650
Yeah, I think it's going to be huge. Also, one
00:27:10.650 --> 00:27:12.470
of the biggest standout things when we went to
00:27:12.470 --> 00:27:16.230
China in 2012 was my dad looked so happy. Like,
00:27:16.250 --> 00:27:18.750
you know, he's normally quite, you know, like
00:27:18.750 --> 00:27:21.009
very like positive and sort of like in his own
00:27:21.009 --> 00:27:23.950
way, but like very reserved. But like in China,
00:27:23.970 --> 00:27:26.609
he was just like fully at home. Like his, his
00:27:26.609 --> 00:27:29.450
like smile changed, like his eyes changed. It
00:27:29.450 --> 00:27:31.529
was a beautiful thing. So I'm really excited
00:27:31.529 --> 00:27:34.750
to go back more than words. What that means to
00:27:34.750 --> 00:27:37.349
you, because I can sense that you care about
00:27:37.349 --> 00:27:39.650
him a lot. He does everything for us. When he
00:27:39.650 --> 00:27:42.170
goes home, it's just like a nice little recharge.
00:27:42.329 --> 00:27:43.990
But he does always want to come back because
00:27:43.990 --> 00:27:47.700
he knows that we've sort of got our lives sort
00:27:47.700 --> 00:27:50.920
of like created. Yeah, you know, like his life
00:27:50.920 --> 00:27:53.019
still exists. Yeah, like he's the only one from
00:27:53.019 --> 00:27:55.380
his family who came over. So I'm curious, what
00:27:55.380 --> 00:27:58.640
would you like people to know about what you
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:02.059
learned from your childhood and also through
00:28:02.059 --> 00:28:05.400
your life journey so far, if you could? Oh, you
00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:06.940
know how like in the lived experience space,
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:09.200
like our lived experience will necessarily...
00:28:09.390 --> 00:28:11.369
shape our perspective our culture sort of does
00:28:11.369 --> 00:28:13.609
too but like in a more like underpinning difficult
00:28:13.609 --> 00:28:16.410
to name so my thing that i would love to communicate
00:28:16.410 --> 00:28:19.250
is that it's like so foundational possibly more
00:28:19.250 --> 00:28:21.170
than the direct lived experience stuff because
00:28:21.170 --> 00:28:24.410
it like sort of tints the lenses of your glasses
00:28:24.410 --> 00:28:26.789
through which you see things when did you realize
00:28:26.789 --> 00:28:29.730
that you possess something more than what normal
00:28:29.730 --> 00:28:33.109
kiwi might have i think i'm still figuring it
00:28:33.109 --> 00:28:35.089
out it's really interesting because i guess i
00:28:35.089 --> 00:28:38.109
guess being half And then growing up in New Zealand,
00:28:38.170 --> 00:28:41.569
people focus a lot on the half. Like in China,
00:28:41.569 --> 00:28:43.710
they sort of like focus on the different parts
00:28:43.710 --> 00:28:46.170
and they sort of like melt together. But in New
00:28:46.170 --> 00:28:50.130
Zealand, it's like 0 .5 here and 0 .5 there.
00:28:50.250 --> 00:28:52.190
And then in terms of knowledge and like where
00:28:52.190 --> 00:28:54.329
I felt like I was allowed to speak, I think I
00:28:54.329 --> 00:28:56.210
like rounded down. So I'd be like, I have zero
00:28:56.210 --> 00:28:58.410
authority to speak on either matter because I'm
00:28:58.410 --> 00:29:02.400
not either. I hear you. And also like in sort
00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:04.119
of the Asian world, it's like additive. Like
00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:06.180
you have this and this and this and this and
00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:08.759
this. Whereas in sort of New Zealand mindset,
00:29:08.859 --> 00:29:11.140
it's more like you have one and you can split
00:29:11.140 --> 00:29:13.180
it into as many parts as you want. But if you
00:29:13.180 --> 00:29:15.380
split it into two, that means you have two halves.
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:18.259
It's just like, oh, it's funny logic. Yeah. So
00:29:18.259 --> 00:29:20.920
this is a question I ask all my guests. What
00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:22.960
would you say to your younger self if you can
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:25.960
go back to a time to talk to her yourself? I
00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:29.660
think I would say like, take your time. It's
00:29:29.660 --> 00:29:31.740
going to come together. but just make sure you
00:29:31.740 --> 00:29:34.319
bring all the pieces and weave them together
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:35.920
in the most beautiful way. I don't know, I think
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:38.799
that's quite abstract, but also fitting. I love
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:42.519
that our whole is made up by many pieces of the
00:29:42.519 --> 00:29:45.819
fragmentation and it's acknowledging that fragmentation
00:29:45.819 --> 00:29:48.640
is where we can become whole. Yeah, that's beautiful.
00:29:49.549 --> 00:29:51.609
Yeah, and then just have different pieces and
00:29:51.609 --> 00:29:54.150
remodel them in different ways into a different
00:29:54.150 --> 00:29:56.630
whole. Yeah, that's cool. I really like it. So
00:29:56.630 --> 00:29:58.970
where are you at right now in your life? Where
00:29:58.970 --> 00:30:03.009
am I at? I'm a very proud cat mum. I've got some
00:30:03.009 --> 00:30:05.210
like overgrown broccolis that are starting to
00:30:05.210 --> 00:30:09.690
grow flowers. And then just work. I work at AUT.
00:30:10.450 --> 00:30:12.329
Stuff's going well. Our lived experience research
00:30:12.329 --> 00:30:15.269
group is getting ready to plunge into the things
00:30:15.269 --> 00:30:16.690
that we're going to finish before the end of
00:30:16.690 --> 00:30:19.269
the year. Can I flip the script? If there's one
00:30:19.269 --> 00:30:22.029
little thing that you could go up and tell younger
00:30:22.029 --> 00:30:24.259
Ivan, what would you say? I always wondered.
00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:25.779
I've been listening to so many of your podcasts,
00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:27.200
Brett, and I was like, oh, what would you answer
00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:31.539
me? Yeah. Wow. That really kept me going. Yeah.
00:30:31.859 --> 00:30:35.240
Wow. Say, trust yourself. Everything is going
00:30:35.240 --> 00:30:39.000
to be fine. Yeah. And despite how hard a journey
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:42.200
it is, you're going to be okay. My God, I have
00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:45.799
a taste of my own medicine. No, beautiful words
00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:48.380
though. Beautiful words. Yeah. Thank you for
00:30:48.380 --> 00:30:51.259
asking me that. Far out. I have no idea how.
00:30:52.230 --> 00:30:55.019
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. You make me cry.
00:30:55.460 --> 00:30:58.519
I thought, oh, finally I go to one podcast without
00:30:58.519 --> 00:30:58.839
crying.