Ep. 22: Idols, Brands & The Originality We Worship

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All right, let's do our favorite parts.
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Ricky.
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My favorite part was when Tim got very passionate about Pantone colors and about
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basically, I think, unimportant similarities.
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I could see it.
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My favorite part was when Tim told us about the cheesy church music he used to make.
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What was that?
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I fumbled all over that.
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No, cheesy church music.
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Say it again.
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It's like a tongue twister.
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My favorite part was the cheesy church music that Tim used to make.
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All right, you got it, Reggie.
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Cheesy church music.
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That is really close.
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I don't know, maybe not a favorite thing, but an appreciation for all the little epiphanies that kept popping up and all connected.
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I don't know what I'm doing with this.
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Will?
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I actually thought the copyright law stuff was kind of interesting, which is not what I would normally call out, but I was like, ooh, okay.
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Brandon, copyright.
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Taking credit.
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Mary.
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My favorite moment was hearing about the spark of inspiration that created sort of a new medium for Lindsay.
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Oh, yeah.
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And Tim.
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Lindsay saying something about authenticity and how she transitioned herself from Brandon to art was moving to me.
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Hey guys, we see you out there.
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Hey, thanks for being here.
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This is Age.
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If you have been watching for a while, you know that I am Reggie Tidwell.
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This is- Mary Green.
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That is- Kim Scrogg.
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And today we have a lovely guest.
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Lindsey Gray.
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And Lindsey Gray is a friend who's an amazing painter.
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I'll let her say just a little bit about, like, what are you, what's going on?
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What are you crazy about?
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Tim likes to say, like, what's the phrase?
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Yeah, what are you obsessed with right now?
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Her obsession?
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Yeah.
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Oh, I think.
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Getting enough sleep.
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Oh, I love it.
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I gotta find that one.
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It's underrated, right?
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It's underrated.
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Oh my gosh.
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And it's affecting my ability to create more and more, right?
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I have been getting to bed earlier and earlier.
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I've been valuing my sleep.
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And it's been paying off.
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I feel so old when I go to bed early.
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I mean, I do too, but man, I've been reading it.
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But it does from that.
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I do, I get attached from this old thing.
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If you have a good book, which I do right now, I'm reading, I have some questions for you.
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Really good book, gosh, I forget the author's name, but,
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I am like in it now.
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So I'm like, I want to go to bed early so I can read a chapter before I fall asleep.
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So you can actually get through a chapter?
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Yeah.
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I'm like one page.
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Yeah, I used to be, but I'm getting it up.
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I can do like a chapter a night.
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All right.
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I read a hell of a book by Jason Mott, and it took me like two years because I would do like a page a night.
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Paragraph a night.
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Sometimes it was like a paragraph line, I got it in me and I'll just fall asleep.
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But yeah.
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Anyway, we are age.
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We like to have long, gripping conversations about a topic that we pull from this very trash can right here, which without further ado, I'm going to go ahead and...
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While you're polling, can I just say that another friend of ours came in yesterday and was having some, you know, brainstorm time with me.
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Tim was here.
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And he, without asking, walked up with a rolled up, wadded up post-it note and put another piece of trash.
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Fun.
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He's like, there's a trash can right there.
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We have to cover it up.
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We need to, I'll cut a perfect little thing that goes over it that we can take off.
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Like a little drain.
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This is not a trash can.
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This is a perfect UX fail.
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Yeah, it really is.
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A trash can that's not a trash can.
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That's a perfect UX fail.
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Perfectly balled up.
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Yeah, I know.
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It's like, oh, that looks like trash.
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That's a cohesive trash.
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And it's so low.
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It's not so full.
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So you're like, I've got somebody checked.
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Look stage.
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This is going to be an interesting one.
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Is it sleep?
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No, it's not.
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It would be cool if it was sleep.
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I don't even know if sleep is in there.
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We should put it in there.
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The trash can's kind of got magic power.
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Slowty.
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I don't know what that means.
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It usually has something that's relevant to someone in the group.
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Good.
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All right.
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Idols.
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Ooh.
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Idols.
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Hmm.
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Hmm.
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How much time do we have?
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Oh, man.
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What's the first thing that comes to mind?
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American Idol, because I hated it.
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Really?
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I hated it literally from the first one.
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It was so horrible.
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Yeah, and all of my friends and family loved it.
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I'm like, what is happening to the world?
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I love like a season or two.
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I like the first season.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I guess there's something to be like, because you had Justin and...
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I can't remember his last name.
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And then Kelly Clarkson.
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Kelly Clarkson.
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Was she first?
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And then, oh, what is her name?
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There were like three people out of that one.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Was it the country?
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But so a lot of these people have become, they've become things.
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Well, that's the, I don't know.
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I'm not going to get into it.
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I'm going to harp on it, but I don't want to.
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I'm going to let everyone give it.
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Name your most memorable American Idol.
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Anybody got one?
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Mine was Kelly Clarkson.
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I think just Kelly Clarkson because it's the only one I paid attention to.
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Where are the David Archuleta stans?
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That's all I'm trying to say.
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No.
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Okay, moving on.
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Actually, Benson Boone was in American Idol.
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No way.
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Was he?
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I didn't know this.
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I didn't know that.
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I think that he's the one that went through like three rounds and then he dropped out himself so he could record his album.
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Do you think he did any?
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He slipped?
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He may not have needed it.
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I was going to say, yeah, he's like, I'm better than this.
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Well, he's the one I think, if I got this wrong, I'll look it up and have Will edit it.
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But there's one guy that comes in to the American Idol's tryouts and he's like, I've only been playing piano for a few months.
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And he sits down and just like rocks the place.
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Wow.
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Awesome.
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And I'm like, what the hell?
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That's not true.
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How can that be true?
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No one plays the piano and just starts singing.
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Three months in, it sounds like him.
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No way.
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I don't know.
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I have my suspicions that it was like some kind of a plant.
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I like the series with Caleb.
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I forget his last name, but he was from Asheville.
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Oh, yeah.
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Caleb.
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I can't remember his last name either.
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He was more like kind of rockabilly, not full country, kind of like Wilco vibe.
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He was awesome, though.
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This is my thing.
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I met him.
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We got a rep. Guys, we got to do better.
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No, but this is not us.
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This is American Idol's failure.
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They say they're going to make these stars and artists, and they go through and grind through this thing, and then you forget about them.
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Yeah.
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You remember the ones that didn't even win.
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Right.
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First thing that comes to mind for me is all the like idols our kids have, like all these like YouTube influencers and they're like looking up to like Mr. Big, Mr. Yeah.
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Mr.
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Beast.
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Mr.
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Beast.
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Mr. Big.
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I thought you were saying that's from Sex and the City.
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Mr.
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Beast.
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We just dated ourselves.
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Chris Noth.
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Yeah, he was amazing.
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Chris Noth.
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Was he our idol back then?
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He's way cooler than Mr.
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Beast.
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I think so.
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Mr. Big.
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Yeah.
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Like K-pop idols.
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I know.
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K-pop demon hunters.
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My kid was watching, one of my twins was watching K-pop demon hunters again yesterday.
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And I was like, I know that song.
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And I was like, oh, I know it.
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My son thought it was an incredible movie.
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I thought it was fun.
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My daughter just survived, so she's still a little... Too young.
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Trying to keep the overstimulants down.
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Yeah, that's hard in this world.
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That's a good call.
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That is a very stimulating movie.
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I was getting on top of the back of the couch dancing myself.
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I know somehow my son has seen it already, and he was like, yeah, Dad, you remember the girl who they start showing her tattoos to prove that she's a demon?
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I was like, what did you watch?
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What's happening?
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Nothing.
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He keeps walking around and making me.
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I'm just seating and I didn't rearrange myself.
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OK. Rearrange yourself, Mary.
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I needed to check myself before I I love how Will did it very discreetly.
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And I was like, what's wrong?
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What's going on?
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And Tim was like, what's happening?
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Reggie has no chill.
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You try to do something subtle and Reggie's going to be like, what's happening?
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Don't be straight, guys.
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Don't be straight.
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And then Tim got involved.
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He's like, what's going on?
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If I didn't get to see him.
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All right.
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Sorry.
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Will, you did a great job.
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Will did exactly the way he was supposed to be.
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What comes to mind when you hear the word idols?
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I think back to what my kid is currently looking up to right now, which is Moana, like any other toddler in the elementary, which I'm okay with.
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I was going to say, that's pretty good.
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Because her immediate kind of reasoning, like a grandparent or somebody will come up and say, oh, she's referring to Moana as a princess, and she'll quickly correct she's not a princess yet.
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Chief.
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Yes.
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Oh, yeah.
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I love that.
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That's a neat, no.
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Prince Charming.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I love that.
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So I'm okay with that.
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He's a chief.
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And like kindness, love of nature.
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Like Moana stands for all these great things.
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Helping others.
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So that's not that ideal to have.
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And how can you see that last scene where she says, let her come to me?
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Yes.
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Wait, is this the new one?
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No, the original cartoon.
262
00:09:24.496 --> 00:09:25.076
Oh, the original one.
263
00:09:25.096 --> 00:09:25.596
Have you seen it?
264
00:09:25.956 --> 00:09:27.036
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
265
00:09:27.096 --> 00:09:27.717
I do remember.
266
00:09:27.737 --> 00:09:30.657
You would break down crying when the lava monster comes to her.
267
00:09:30.677 --> 00:09:30.997
Yeah, yeah.
268
00:09:31.037 --> 00:09:32.038
Oh, my goodness.
269
00:09:32.238 --> 00:09:32.478
Graffiti?
270
00:09:32.558 --> 00:09:33.098
Graffiti?
271
00:09:33.298 --> 00:09:34.138
I still cry every time.
272
00:09:34.158 --> 00:09:34.718
What was her name?
273
00:09:34.738 --> 00:09:35.158
Two.
274
00:09:35.698 --> 00:09:36.399
It was Graffiti.
275
00:09:36.439 --> 00:09:37.299
It was Graffiti.
276
00:09:37.319 --> 00:09:37.779
Hi, of course.
277
00:09:37.879 --> 00:09:39.619
It's a ride in the flying june.
278
00:09:39.719 --> 00:09:41.200
It's a T-T-T-T-T. No, it's a T-T-T. That's right.
279
00:09:41.300 --> 00:09:44.941
I always want to say Graffiti, but that's the monkey in Lion King, right?
280
00:09:45.221 --> 00:09:45.901
Yeah, that's not.
281
00:09:46.141 --> 00:09:46.661
Yeah.
282
00:09:46.721 --> 00:09:48.321
It's something like that, though.
283
00:09:48.341 --> 00:09:48.802
Yeah, it's T-T
284
00:09:51.602 --> 00:10:19.056
we watch it about twice a day so it's to pt you got it maybe you should think it unless i'm saying it wrong but yeah are you gonna show her the live action when it comes we saw it already saw it wow what do you think it was a good great yeah really you went to the movies to see it wow that's like full-on stimulation was that her first movie no like in the theater had her first movie for her birthday last year which was the live action lilo and stitch which that also was very good
285
00:10:19.636 --> 00:10:20.196
Oh, nice.
286
00:10:20.736 --> 00:10:21.037
Love it.
287
00:10:21.097 --> 00:10:22.897
I didn't know they did a live action Lilo and Stitch.
288
00:10:22.917 --> 00:10:23.557
They did a great job.
289
00:10:24.178 --> 00:10:24.698
What a stitcher.
290
00:10:24.718 --> 00:10:27.218
So her idol is a chief, a woman chief.
291
00:10:27.258 --> 00:10:27.959
How cool is that?
292
00:10:27.999 --> 00:10:28.759
What a new world.
293
00:10:28.779 --> 00:10:29.919
I love that.
294
00:10:30.419 --> 00:10:31.420
It's not a typical princess.
295
00:10:31.460 --> 00:10:31.860
I'll take it.
296
00:10:31.900 --> 00:10:32.160
Hi.
297
00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:33.440
How are you?
298
00:10:34.201 --> 00:10:34.601
Oh, this.
299
00:10:34.621 --> 00:10:35.101
Can I marry?
300
00:10:36.438 --> 00:10:37.359
Just let it out, Mary.
301
00:10:37.419 --> 00:10:38.120
Let it all out.
302
00:10:38.180 --> 00:10:39.902
When we were starting an episode, my hand was here.
303
00:10:39.922 --> 00:10:40.703
That's what I thought about.
304
00:10:40.723 --> 00:10:45.107
It's like kings and queens would sit like this as people like approach the throne.
305
00:10:45.127 --> 00:10:46.248
Oh, that's right.
306
00:10:46.989 --> 00:10:47.570
I love that.
307
00:10:48.110 --> 00:10:50.653
I get like way too deep on idolatry.
308
00:10:50.793 --> 00:10:53.876
I started reading this book called We Are Gods.
309
00:10:54.437 --> 00:10:54.677
Ooh.
310
00:10:56.576 --> 00:10:57.157
We are gods.
311
00:10:57.738 --> 00:11:04.827
And it's just the thing that comes to me is like, we have turned a lot of things into idols, so to speak.
312
00:11:05.348 --> 00:11:10.315
And so much so that we almost, I'm going to go a step further.
313
00:11:11.056 --> 00:11:13.880
I think people have flipped the image of even something like,
314
00:11:14.140 --> 00:11:15.941
Jesus Christ into an idol.
315
00:11:16.081 --> 00:11:19.603
We've turned it into something that's not as profound and deep as it was meant to be.
316
00:11:19.943 --> 00:11:23.825
We're not looking beneath the surface at the values and the... No longer a compass.
317
00:11:24.185 --> 00:11:24.725
Yeah.
318
00:11:25.165 --> 00:11:28.967
It's not this eternal big picture macro thing.
319
00:11:29.007 --> 00:11:31.028
It becomes very bland and superficial.
320
00:11:31.508 --> 00:11:35.370
So I am surrounded on all sides by idols is how I feel.
321
00:11:35.750 --> 00:11:38.412
And I worship at the altar of a few like TikTok.
322
00:11:38.432 --> 00:11:38.772
TikTok.
323
00:11:40.672 --> 00:12:08.920
like coffee like yeah you know those are called addictions sure and you could maybe pull on that thread you know so i don't please don't idolatry is everywhere and i don't mean that in like the strictly christian old school biblical sense just generally it does change the feel of it when you say idolatry versus idols it really does yeah yeah i know it feels more like profound and like oh yeah
324
00:12:09.262 --> 00:12:10.650
I'm pretty deep, guys.
325
00:12:10.851 --> 00:12:11.555
I don't know.
326
00:12:11.575 --> 00:12:12.139
Just drop the...
327
00:12:12.955 --> 00:12:14.116
Wait, Anna.
328
00:12:14.176 --> 00:12:18.759
When you unfolded it, I was like, all right, this is going to be the episode.
329
00:12:18.859 --> 00:12:21.562
Lindsay, we don't know each other that well, but buckle up.
330
00:12:23.783 --> 00:12:25.665
But then he said American Idol.
331
00:12:25.925 --> 00:12:26.205
Yeah.
332
00:12:26.245 --> 00:12:28.006
And I was, oh, yeah.
333
00:12:28.287 --> 00:12:28.627
Oh, yeah.
334
00:12:28.647 --> 00:12:29.467
There's all kinds of that.
335
00:12:29.708 --> 00:12:29.988
Oh, yeah.
336
00:12:30.008 --> 00:12:31.629
There's lighthearted idols.
337
00:12:31.949 --> 00:12:32.390
No, you know what?
338
00:12:32.410 --> 00:12:39.815
When I first started watching it, I was more in like the Christian religion, psychologically, or what do you call it?
339
00:12:39.835 --> 00:12:40.656
Philosophically.
340
00:12:40.816 --> 00:12:59.536
philosophically whatever it was my being was more in the Christian religion and I did feel like we were idolizing these people yeah that was the point yeah right like the K-pop idols right the point come worship right but it's like it was new to me because it was called American Idol yeah
341
00:12:59.756 --> 00:13:02.999
when we have generations of the same thing.
342
00:13:03.019 --> 00:13:03.459
Yeah.
343
00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:09.083
It's like, I don't know why I like hyper-focused on it and I tried to make it the thing that was wrong.
344
00:13:09.183 --> 00:13:17.069
I mean, I will say I also grew up Christian and there was that whole like, thou shall not have any other gods before me or idols before me or whatever.
345
00:13:17.089 --> 00:13:19.731
And so I absolutely took it to heart.
346
00:13:19.771 --> 00:13:20.732
I was the same way.
347
00:13:20.752 --> 00:13:24.795
I was like, you know, don't look up to anything too much.
348
00:13:24.835 --> 00:13:27.037
Don't put anything on a pedestal and...
349
00:13:27.617 --> 00:13:33.919
So I think I, of course, cut out of the whole Christian religion way long ago.
350
00:13:34.459 --> 00:13:40.201
But there was still this residual sort of what was left over.
351
00:13:40.501 --> 00:13:41.842
Yeah, the unlearning of that.
352
00:13:42.362 --> 00:13:44.223
Yeah, definitely, because it sinks deep in.
353
00:13:44.283 --> 00:13:51.325
Not that I need to have idols, but I definitely see when people are doing good in the world, I wouldn't say I...
354
00:13:52.352 --> 00:13:59.634
idolize them, but I will say that I definitely have a deep, deep amount of gratitude and appreciation.
355
00:13:59.654 --> 00:14:00.915
Respect.
356
00:14:01.155 --> 00:14:01.475
Yeah.
357
00:14:02.395 --> 00:14:03.916
Which could feel like idolizing.
358
00:14:03.976 --> 00:14:04.336
Yeah.
359
00:14:04.496 --> 00:14:05.636
Idolize people.
360
00:14:05.696 --> 00:14:09.397
I don't idolize celebrities so much, but I idolize people.
361
00:14:09.538 --> 00:14:13.899
Like, yeah, I'll meet somebody and they're really sparkly and I'm just obsessed.
362
00:14:14.119 --> 00:14:18.100
And I'm thinking, this person is the answer to all the questions that I've had.
363
00:14:18.160 --> 00:14:20.041
Like, let me go find answers in that person.
364
00:14:20.801 --> 00:14:25.465
We had an episode, I will not name the episode or the person, but you just fall.
365
00:14:25.505 --> 00:14:26.065
I know what episode is.
366
00:14:26.085 --> 00:14:30.568
You just find yourself falling into the deepest well.
367
00:14:30.889 --> 00:14:33.331
But I do that with a lot of people, I find.
368
00:14:33.551 --> 00:14:36.913
And it takes me a minute to reel back in and say, oh no, this energy is mine.
369
00:14:37.334 --> 00:14:40.116
And it's a tricky thing.
370
00:14:41.016 --> 00:14:47.481
Yeah, I think the thing that drives me crazy about idols in general is that it's like a stuck place.
371
00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:54.062
Idols are things that mean something and they stay the same.
372
00:14:54.082 --> 00:14:57.624
They stay consistent, like a statue or a person.
373
00:14:57.864 --> 00:15:03.146
Because we idolize people that are constantly changing, but we idolize something about them that we think and that we love.
374
00:15:03.167 --> 00:15:05.328
We fixate, we obsess over something.
375
00:15:06.228 --> 00:15:28.714
And for me, the way that idolization has kind of filtered through my maturity and growing up and kind of developing my relationship with God is that the idolization is what keeps you from finding the truth because you get stuck on these assumptions about what is good and real and right.
376
00:15:28.814 --> 00:15:31.175
And and you don't move past it.
377
00:15:31.355 --> 00:15:34.176
And I've been recently going through this moment where
378
00:15:35.598 --> 00:15:39.902
The God I know and love isn't the same all the time, even though he says he never changes.
379
00:15:40.262 --> 00:15:43.165
He isn't the same because people are always different.
380
00:15:43.545 --> 00:15:48.890
Like we're all these unique universes of connections and upbringing and relationships.
381
00:15:49.370 --> 00:15:55.396
None of us literally have anything similar because we're raised in such different places.
382
00:15:55.416 --> 00:15:55.796
Yeah.
383
00:15:55.856 --> 00:15:57.017
And I wonder if that's by design.
384
00:15:57.097 --> 00:15:58.279
Yeah, totally by design.
385
00:15:58.539 --> 00:16:01.602
When someone's asking you to idolize something, whether it's a celebrity or...
386
00:16:02.357 --> 00:16:09.499
or religious figure, they want you to get stuck in that and not be open to change and evolution.
387
00:16:10.359 --> 00:16:15.080
Exactly, because they fear that growth, like they're going to lose control.
388
00:16:15.760 --> 00:16:20.121
So the idols are the thing that keep us from growing and from expanding.
389
00:16:21.041 --> 00:16:29.803
And so one of the key examples, and people, I get into discussions about the Bible, because that, to me, you said Jesus Christ, but I think more the Bible has become an idol to a lot of people.
390
00:16:30.063 --> 00:16:32.144
It has, and not in a good way.
391
00:16:32.424 --> 00:16:37.747
No, not in a good way because they use their understanding of what it says, and that's the idol.
392
00:16:38.107 --> 00:16:44.270
So they make this book, this thing they can beat people over the head with or hurt people with because they're interpreting it in a certain way.
393
00:16:44.630 --> 00:16:52.954
So when I talk about this idea of God changing, being something unique to everyone, it's this—when Moses was in the desert, he raised an idol—
394
00:16:53.694 --> 00:16:55.938
It's a serpent on a stick because everyone was sick.
395
00:16:56.338 --> 00:16:58.802
And so God told him to raise the serpent on a stick.
396
00:16:59.263 --> 00:17:04.511
So first of all, he's like breaking his own rule because that's kind of like what the pagan religions were doing around them.
397
00:17:05.012 --> 00:17:06.754
So he raises the stick, everyone gets healed.
398
00:17:07.315 --> 00:17:08.477
And then 200 years later, that
399
00:17:09.382 --> 00:17:31.642
thing they had been worshiping it in the temple because it was the thing moses used and then god asked them to destroy the idol 200 years later so you see how god once makes it a miraculous thing that was like against the understanding of what they were supposed to do to do a miracle and then later it's it's an idol that's holding them back and asks them to destroy it right
400
00:17:31.822 --> 00:17:32.764
So it's not like this.
401
00:17:33.224 --> 00:17:34.026
That's the thing about idols.
402
00:17:34.046 --> 00:17:39.515
They get us stuck and we get held by our assumptions or our expectations.
403
00:17:40.497 --> 00:17:41.158
Oh, go ahead.
404
00:17:41.178 --> 00:17:43.041
I was going to say, I think it's funny that
405
00:17:44.187 --> 00:17:53.889
Like, I think of all the figures, historical figures that you could, like, worship, I would say of someone who is a non-Christian, Jesus would be one because of the way he lived his life.
406
00:17:53.949 --> 00:17:58.470
Like, he is someone, like, if you said, be more Jesus-like, I'm okay with that.
407
00:17:58.510 --> 00:18:00.370
You don't have to be a Christian to be more Jesus-like.
408
00:18:00.411 --> 00:18:01.891
You could just be a good human.
409
00:18:02.271 --> 00:18:04.611
However— They've got a whole Trinity thing going on.
410
00:18:04.851 --> 00:18:06.452
I know, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
411
00:18:06.512 --> 00:18:07.352
He's not just a dude.
412
00:18:07.812 --> 00:18:19.600
But I almost think that they've taken Jesus and made him a false idol because what they've done is they've taken the parts of him that they like and they've thrown, like, for instance, I would.
413
00:18:19.902 --> 00:18:43.730
you know, and certainly will out myself with someone that's not very fond of super, I'm not very fond of far left or right, but far right has taken this Jesus and used it in this almost like weaponry and not in a way where they're saying, you know, like for instance, they seem to be completely against feeding the homeless people and the sick people and the poor and like,
414
00:18:44.771 --> 00:18:56.303
taking care and being kind and loving your neighbors and all those things that I would consider to be very Jesus-like, it seems like they're vehemently against it, which makes it seem to me like, well, who are you worshiping?
415
00:18:56.323 --> 00:18:57.404
Because it's not Jesus.
416
00:18:57.744 --> 00:18:58.966
Contradiction is deafening.
417
00:18:59.266 --> 00:18:59.747
Yeah.
418
00:18:59.887 --> 00:19:00.387
Hypocrisy.
419
00:19:00.668 --> 00:19:05.393
What you will find, though, is I think in political arenas, and I see this sometimes in the people I know and love,
420
00:19:06.302 --> 00:19:12.886
People get hopped up on a thing, like a trend, like pull yourself up by your bootstrap.
421
00:19:13.346 --> 00:19:19.329
But if you know, if those same people in real life situations are the most giving people.
422
00:19:19.689 --> 00:19:20.109
Oh, are they?
423
00:19:20.350 --> 00:19:22.030
Yeah, the ones that I know.
424
00:19:22.150 --> 00:19:26.413
They're in the conservative, far-right conservative crowd, but they give so much.
425
00:19:26.953 --> 00:19:31.176
And I think there are people out there who we assume to be that way because that is the narrative.
426
00:19:31.196 --> 00:19:34.458
You know, like there is this strong like you deserve it.
427
00:19:34.678 --> 00:19:38.460
You've you've used capitalism to gain your wealth and you can keep all your wealth.
428
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:40.761
You don't have to share it like there is a kind of that like tight grip.
429
00:19:41.402 --> 00:19:46.405
But the ones I know who are kind of positioned with that side are so giving.
430
00:19:46.785 --> 00:19:47.866
They donate money.
431
00:19:47.886 --> 00:19:48.666
They give money.
432
00:19:48.686 --> 00:19:48.826
They.
433
00:19:50.407 --> 00:19:54.850
buy food for these closets, you know, these... With no strings attached.
434
00:19:54.870 --> 00:19:55.830
Yeah, with no strings attached.
435
00:19:55.850 --> 00:19:57.591
Sometimes it's for a tax write-off.
436
00:19:58.332 --> 00:20:05.656
But it's interesting to find, I think, to find where politics is trying to divide us and to find where people actually are.
437
00:20:06.456 --> 00:20:11.319
Because I've had a friend told me, more people than you know and than you expect are in the middle.
438
00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:13.080
Yeah, right.
439
00:20:13.100 --> 00:20:14.041
Between the extremes.
440
00:20:14.061 --> 00:20:15.401
I would like to think that, yeah, absolutely.
441
00:20:15.762 --> 00:20:16.302
Absolutely.
442
00:20:16.762 --> 00:20:24.405
I'm really curious, Lindsay, you said you thought of your daughter and how she sort of idolizes Moana at this moment in life.
443
00:20:24.605 --> 00:20:33.528
And I think many of us as children, and we watch other children go through that phase, I start to question what's the difference between an idol and a role model.
444
00:20:33.548 --> 00:20:34.068
Right.
445
00:20:34.449 --> 00:20:42.892
But I wonder, are there characters that you've seen in media that you would be really upset if your daughter had latched onto in a similar way?
446
00:20:42.912 --> 00:20:43.012
Yeah.
447
00:20:44.242 --> 00:20:45.003
Probably.
448
00:20:45.023 --> 00:20:46.524
I don't think.
449
00:20:46.704 --> 00:20:52.550
We're pretty, I mean, pretty considerate.
450
00:20:52.570 --> 00:20:56.234
And, like, I guess we try to vet, I would say, what she watched.
451
00:20:56.334 --> 00:20:59.077
I mean, we're not, like, controlling, but, like, PBS is fair game.
452
00:20:59.417 --> 00:21:00.178
Anything on PBS.
453
00:21:00.318 --> 00:21:00.759
Absolutely.
454
00:21:00.779 --> 00:21:00.959
Yeah.
455
00:21:01.459 --> 00:21:03.181
And very few Disney.
456
00:21:03.261 --> 00:21:03.421
Yeah.
457
00:21:03.882 --> 00:21:04.142
Yeah.
458
00:21:04.970 --> 00:21:11.073
Like there's definitely some, I mean, there's been some date, you know, some older movies that I grew up with and then older than that, that are very dated.
459
00:21:11.473 --> 00:21:12.513
And there are scenes where.
460
00:21:12.553 --> 00:21:13.814
Oh my gosh, I can't believe.
461
00:21:13.974 --> 00:21:16.915
Oh, I can't think of one specifically right now, but.
462
00:21:18.336 --> 00:21:21.337
There's a lot of patriarchy and colonialism.
463
00:21:21.417 --> 00:21:21.737
Oh yeah.
464
00:21:21.777 --> 00:21:22.417
One that comes to mind.
465
00:21:22.477 --> 00:21:24.078
A lot of the other princesses and then.
466
00:21:24.728 --> 00:21:25.269
Yeah.
467
00:21:25.409 --> 00:21:28.612
You know, needing, yeah, they're this damsel in distress.
468
00:21:28.672 --> 00:21:29.733
I'm like, nope, we're not watching it.
469
00:21:29.773 --> 00:21:30.374
What?
470
00:21:30.394 --> 00:21:31.255
Turn it off.
471
00:21:31.275 --> 00:21:31.816
Wait a minute.
472
00:21:31.836 --> 00:21:34.018
You're trying to tell me she's pretty and she's smart.
473
00:21:34.058 --> 00:21:34.959
Yeah, yeah.
474
00:21:34.999 --> 00:21:35.980
Must be a fairy tale.
475
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:36.841
Cleaner, yeah.
476
00:21:37.021 --> 00:21:44.289
I watched, my kids and I, my son and the twins, we watched Castle in the Sky, Miyazaki's.
477
00:21:44.930 --> 00:21:46.912
It's been a long time since I watched that one.
478
00:21:46.972 --> 00:21:53.118
Well, you would be kind of shocked if you watched it today because I'd never seen it.
479
00:21:53.458 --> 00:21:55.219
So I'm looking at it with fresh eyes.
480
00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:59.924
It's like one of the few Studio Ghibli movies that I haven't seen.
481
00:22:00.204 --> 00:22:08.251
But there's this one scene where Shita, who is the young girl character, Shita and Patsu,
482
00:22:12.486 --> 00:22:17.828
I guess she's sort of the antagonist in the movie, Dola.
483
00:22:18.189 --> 00:22:26.572
She's got these grown-ass men's sons, and they're all like, one has got a full beard, like seemingly in their 20s and late 20s, early 30s.
484
00:22:30.214 --> 00:22:34.158
And they are actually making advances toward this little girl.
485
00:22:34.218 --> 00:22:39.084
This is one moment where she's in this room and they sneak up and they're peeping in on her.
486
00:22:39.144 --> 00:22:42.808
And then one guy comes in and he like closes the door behind them.
487
00:22:42.828 --> 00:22:45.571
And he's like, well, I don't have anything else going on.
488
00:22:45.651 --> 00:22:48.173
And I'm like, what is happening right now?
489
00:22:48.674 --> 00:22:50.496
And they were just fumbling over themselves.
490
00:22:50.556 --> 00:22:50.776
Yeah.
491
00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:57.885
So they either they should have been more like, you know, transparent with what the age gap was.
492
00:22:57.925 --> 00:23:02.389
So we can understand maybe she was really 18 and they were like 21 or 22.
493
00:23:02.789 --> 00:23:03.209
I don't know.
494
00:23:03.269 --> 00:23:08.934
But she seemed they portrayed her like she was maybe like 13, 14, 15, something like that.
495
00:23:09.054 --> 00:23:11.696
And these it was just unsettling for me.
496
00:23:12.076 --> 00:23:13.718
My kids were like, oh, they're so cute.
497
00:23:13.778 --> 00:23:15.039
Fumbling over themselves for her.
498
00:23:15.059 --> 00:23:17.701
And I was like, wouldn't call that.
499
00:23:18.442 --> 00:23:18.762
No.
500
00:23:19.495 --> 00:23:20.336
They were idolizing her.
501
00:23:20.456 --> 00:23:21.497
They were idolizing her.
502
00:23:21.517 --> 00:23:23.680
They were, that was the epitome of idolizing.
503
00:23:23.840 --> 00:23:24.420
Yeah, I think.
504
00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:28.965
They were like bringing her flowers, which is like bringing the, you know, the gift to the altar.
505
00:23:28.985 --> 00:23:32.850
Well, I think in old cultures, I mean, girls were betrothed at young ages.
506
00:23:33.875 --> 00:23:50.919
I would say actually, as it pertains to idolizing, I think in relationships is where it happens a lot, where you have one person that is so in love and infatuated with the other, and to the point where they are idolizing them, which puts an incredible amount of strain.
507
00:23:50.939 --> 00:24:02.382
I've seen this play out over and over again, where somebody falls in love with someone and they were just like, oh man, they're the greatest and blah, blah, and the other person, you don't get the same vibe from them, and then, yeah,
508
00:24:02.882 --> 00:24:04.083
No big surprise.
509
00:24:04.123 --> 00:24:05.144
It doesn't last.
510
00:24:05.384 --> 00:24:11.890
And then I'll speak from my own experience and from having watched other people do it and cringe and think, oh, that was me.
511
00:24:12.450 --> 00:24:13.491
Oh, I'm the problem.
512
00:24:13.852 --> 00:24:14.572
You've been there.
513
00:24:14.732 --> 00:24:17.475
But you, you like fall in love in whatever sense.
514
00:24:18.155 --> 00:24:20.758
And you put this person on a pedestal, idolize them.
515
00:24:21.438 --> 00:24:31.100
And suddenly, you know, something will change, it will shift, and they're not behaving the way that you expected them to behave because you associated them, like you were saying, you have these three things.
516
00:24:31.280 --> 00:24:36.301
They are perfect, and yet they're not behaving toward me in the way that someone who's perfect would.
517
00:24:36.821 --> 00:24:41.482
And if over time you start resenting them as if they are the problem...
518
00:24:41.722 --> 00:24:42.382
But it wasn't.
519
00:24:42.622 --> 00:24:49.964
The issue is your own expectation, and you just start projecting, and eventually it becomes very bitter and, yes, resentful...
520
00:24:50.568 --> 00:25:02.014
and painful and you have to precedent that they could never really live up to and you you like work yourself up into this fervor and it takes some distance to step back and think
521
00:25:02.753 --> 00:25:06.137
wow, I really hurt my own feelings.
522
00:25:06.858 --> 00:25:08.399
But I guess that's growing up.
523
00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:09.460
That's growing up.
524
00:25:09.561 --> 00:25:10.902
Yeah.
525
00:25:11.102 --> 00:25:12.364
Heart pains, heart trauma.
526
00:25:12.564 --> 00:25:18.631
And it's partially because you take the idol that you have about the perfect person, and then you kind of put it on them.
527
00:25:18.971 --> 00:25:19.572
Yeah.
528
00:25:19.612 --> 00:25:22.815
For a moment, they spark that, like, yeah, they could be this thing.
529
00:25:22.975 --> 00:25:23.256
Right.
530
00:25:23.296 --> 00:25:24.297
They just do it for me.
531
00:25:24.417 --> 00:25:26.178
clouds your judgment too, right?
532
00:25:26.258 --> 00:25:27.198
Or how you see them.
533
00:25:27.498 --> 00:25:27.758
Yeah.
534
00:25:27.778 --> 00:25:28.598
Oh, absolutely.
535
00:25:28.698 --> 00:25:34.360
It also forces, I mean, even saying the phrase, it puts them on a pedestal implies this.
536
00:25:34.860 --> 00:25:37.241
It creates this distance between you.
537
00:25:37.741 --> 00:25:40.862
You can't be like cozy snuggled up to an idol.
538
00:25:40.982 --> 00:25:43.943
It is by definition above and distant from you.
539
00:25:44.463 --> 00:25:50.064
So if you are actually seeking connection with that person, you have to take them off the pedestal.
540
00:25:50.084 --> 00:25:52.265
You have to see them wholeheartedly.
541
00:25:53.347 --> 00:25:58.171
But if you'd rather have something to worship, if you'd rather have—worship is what I just said.
542
00:25:58.191 --> 00:25:58.592
Worship.
543
00:25:58.672 --> 00:26:00.493
It's a new type of worship.
544
00:26:00.614 --> 00:26:01.434
I'm good for those.
545
00:26:01.815 --> 00:26:04.557
If you would rather have an obsession— Yeah.
546
00:26:04.877 --> 00:26:09.141
And I think a lot of us do for whatever reason, avoidance or anxiety or whatever.
547
00:26:09.842 --> 00:26:11.884
You can't have the connection.
548
00:26:11.944 --> 00:26:13.265
You don't get to have both.
549
00:26:13.865 --> 00:26:16.328
That is why I think the Bible says don't have no idols.
550
00:26:17.152 --> 00:26:18.314
because there's no relationship.
551
00:26:18.974 --> 00:26:20.637
And the Bible is all about relationship.
552
00:26:21.217 --> 00:26:22.519
Jesus was all about relationship.
553
00:26:22.539 --> 00:26:32.472
So that's why I think that when it's turned into this thing where you have to be this way, and that's I think what the political agenda is, is trying to, like you were saying, they're trying to,
554
00:26:33.453 --> 00:26:54.598
sameness put a thing on like you can only vote this way you can only care about this you can only hate these people you can't change your mind you can't change your mind you can't be free because of all the risk that comes with opening yourself up to unknown things and so idolization keeps relationship from happening it stagnates it it makes it cold
555
00:26:56.743 --> 00:26:57.363
Hot take.
556
00:26:57.503 --> 00:26:57.983
Hot take.
557
00:26:58.083 --> 00:26:58.603
Hot take.
558
00:26:58.743 --> 00:26:59.584
New hot take.
559
00:26:59.644 --> 00:27:00.224
Oh, new hot take.
560
00:27:00.244 --> 00:27:01.004
Nail on the head.
561
00:27:01.024 --> 00:27:02.184
Brands are idols.
562
00:27:03.044 --> 00:27:03.884
Oh, yes.
563
00:27:04.164 --> 00:27:06.885
Our whole job is to create idols.
564
00:27:06.945 --> 00:27:07.785
Yeah.
565
00:27:07.805 --> 00:27:08.645
They have rules.
566
00:27:08.705 --> 00:27:10.566
They have guidelines.
567
00:27:11.186 --> 00:27:11.486
Yeah.
568
00:27:11.826 --> 00:27:14.126
They have the exterior, the polished exterior.
569
00:27:15.126 --> 00:27:17.567
And the whole point is to make people worship them.
570
00:27:17.867 --> 00:27:22.768
The whole point is to make people obsess and want to consume and be with, and yet they
571
00:27:23.621 --> 00:27:24.242
And at a distance.
572
00:27:24.623 --> 00:27:25.044
Yeah.
573
00:27:25.104 --> 00:27:26.587
You don't have control over it.
574
00:27:26.687 --> 00:27:29.532
You don't have reciprocity from it.
575
00:27:29.612 --> 00:27:32.177
You don't get to dictate to the brand what the brand does.
576
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:35.222
But the brand gets to...
577
00:27:35.978 --> 00:27:37.780
set the rules and rules.
578
00:27:37.840 --> 00:27:38.341
That's funny.
579
00:27:38.661 --> 00:27:46.210
And we don't typically do like interview style on this, but I am curious as someone who is in a hot seat now.
580
00:27:46.590 --> 00:27:47.331
I'm like the president.
581
00:27:47.371 --> 00:27:48.052
Get ready, Lindsay.
582
00:27:48.072 --> 00:27:56.801
As someone who has been a brand designer, but is now really focused on your natural media art, fine art, like,
583
00:27:57.422 --> 00:27:59.203
What's what has that been like?
584
00:27:59.763 --> 00:28:04.684
And to move from having to build brands up to be idols to now.
585
00:28:05.004 --> 00:28:05.765
Build yourself up.
586
00:28:06.545 --> 00:28:07.405
Yeah.
587
00:28:07.465 --> 00:28:08.346
You're the brand.
588
00:28:08.366 --> 00:28:11.987
You're focused like you have focused all your brand energy into yourself.
589
00:28:12.227 --> 00:28:13.147
Yeah.
590
00:28:13.687 --> 00:28:18.929
Well, I mean, the most obvious being that that gave me the skills to be able to
591
00:28:19.434 --> 00:28:20.955
to do art successfully, right?
592
00:28:20.995 --> 00:28:25.098
Cause I've tried before and failed multiple times because I didn't know the business side.
593
00:28:25.118 --> 00:28:26.319
I didn't know the marketing side.
594
00:28:28.140 --> 00:28:31.823
But I think learning, I think my biggest lesson from moving from
595
00:28:32.535 --> 00:28:55.720
one thing to the other and how to do it properly or at least in a way that works for me is authenticity right and not not falling into that to that idle trap that you know look at my art it's the best this is don't you want that you know so I don't present it that way or at least I try not to no you don't actually I think you do it really well just want to focus on
596
00:28:56.910 --> 00:29:12.343
you know, making the viewers and whether they're collectors or not feel invested and feel part of the process and at least try to tap in, invite them to tap into what, I guess, sensations that practice provides me.
597
00:29:13.324 --> 00:29:14.645
So I don't know.
598
00:29:14.665 --> 00:29:16.046
I don't know.
599
00:29:16.207 --> 00:29:19.489
And I got away from the overpolished, you know,
600
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:49.632
content that I share that I used to do for myself as a brand designer and interior designer and then for other you know clients as well um and I would become just obsessed with how that's reading for that client or for for my own business and so getting away from that and so you feel more authentic in doing your art yes you know it's interesting but I didn't when I tried it years before right I didn't understand how like what not to do you just not care now
601
00:29:50.455 --> 00:29:51.436
I mean, I care.
602
00:29:51.456 --> 00:29:56.119
No, but like what gave you that like, what gave you that sense of like, I can be who I am now?
603
00:29:57.519 --> 00:29:59.401
Honestly, this is going to make me cry.
604
00:29:59.421 --> 00:30:00.161
I'm going to try not to cry.
605
00:30:00.742 --> 00:30:02.002
My daughter.
606
00:30:02.843 --> 00:30:04.544
Her ratings will go up if you cry.
607
00:30:04.584 --> 00:30:17.132
When I was, well, when I was, I think, you know, making sure that she understands that it's okay to be herself, obviously, is something that I want to instill in parenting that I have to constantly remind myself multiple times a day.
608
00:30:17.907 --> 00:30:25.649
But I think when I was on the precipice of, do I stop my design work and go full-time artists?
609
00:30:25.669 --> 00:30:26.830
Do I try to do both?
610
00:30:28.050 --> 00:30:34.192
One of the, I guess, final nudges for me, I think it was when she first started going to Mountain City or Little Grove.
611
00:30:35.152 --> 00:30:41.274
And we were at one of the events, it might've been an open house or something, I don't remember exactly what,
612
00:30:42.990 --> 00:30:46.271
And she's never met a stranger, so she'll go up and introduce whoever.
613
00:30:46.291 --> 00:30:47.271
This is my mom.
614
00:30:47.311 --> 00:30:48.032
She's an artist.
615
00:30:48.292 --> 00:30:49.652
Oh, my God.
616
00:30:49.692 --> 00:30:53.433
And I've never really allowed myself to call myself that before.
617
00:30:53.453 --> 00:30:54.453
I love that.
618
00:30:54.514 --> 00:31:01.496
And that was right when I was kind of making that decision, do I shut the client door to focus on this?
619
00:31:01.516 --> 00:31:02.936
I love that.
620
00:31:02.996 --> 00:31:04.877
So that gave me, I guess, the remission.
621
00:31:04.897 --> 00:31:05.557
That's so awesome.
622
00:31:05.577 --> 00:31:05.797
Yeah.
623
00:31:06.742 --> 00:31:09.004
And I think you've done a really good job with the transition.
624
00:31:09.524 --> 00:31:16.128
I used to be a big fan of your, Tim and I both were, your really polished, like designed, like your, I liked how you used to.
625
00:31:16.148 --> 00:31:17.409
That's an embarrassing amount of time on that.
626
00:31:17.549 --> 00:31:18.850
I know, I can imagine.
627
00:31:18.890 --> 00:31:20.531
No one will say that truth.
628
00:31:20.711 --> 00:31:21.371
Right, right.
629
00:31:21.912 --> 00:31:27.295
It's a deep obsession and you have to give, sacrifice yourself to make that work.
630
00:31:27.315 --> 00:31:32.959
And going back to art was to kind of not cure, but as a treatment for that perfectionism, right?
631
00:31:32.979 --> 00:31:34.220
And pull yourself away from it.
632
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:34.380
Yeah.
633
00:31:36.681 --> 00:31:46.968
I got to brag about you a little bit because I think the way that you did that transition and the authenticity part, like she makes her own charcoal.
634
00:31:47.088 --> 00:31:53.312
Like she'll actually go and get sticks and burn them down in a can and then use them to draw.
635
00:31:53.332 --> 00:31:55.873
That's me.
636
00:31:55.953 --> 00:31:56.734
And she would like...
637
00:31:57.334 --> 00:31:59.556
That's my desperation to get away from the computer.
638
00:31:59.817 --> 00:32:01.878
Yeah, touch the material.
639
00:32:02.219 --> 00:32:03.840
It's the coolest fucking thing.
640
00:32:03.860 --> 00:32:04.401
I love it.
641
00:32:04.441 --> 00:32:09.485
And I think I could see as if, you know, if I were like this big art collector.
642
00:32:09.505 --> 00:32:11.467
Which you will be one day.
643
00:32:11.527 --> 00:32:11.987
Me and you both.
644
00:32:12.048 --> 00:32:12.628
Absolutely.
645
00:32:12.648 --> 00:32:13.108
You are.
646
00:32:13.149 --> 00:32:14.370
You're just not buying them yet.
647
00:32:14.390 --> 00:32:15.230
Yes, yes.
648
00:32:15.270 --> 00:32:18.193
I'm collecting them in here.
649
00:32:18.253 --> 00:32:19.654
I'm saving them in Instagram.
650
00:32:20.875 --> 00:32:23.377
But that will be my final form, is patron of the arts.
651
00:32:23.517 --> 00:32:24.277
Oh, hell yeah.
652
00:32:24.297 --> 00:32:25.138
That's the mountain I'm climbing.
653
00:32:25.158 --> 00:32:25.798
Absolutely.
654
00:32:25.918 --> 00:32:26.499
A hundred percent.
655
00:32:26.519 --> 00:32:27.539
Same page, same page.
656
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:28.220
Is that your idol?
657
00:32:28.280 --> 00:32:30.021
Admirable.
658
00:32:30.061 --> 00:32:31.021
My idol's myself.
659
00:32:31.381 --> 00:32:32.762
No, your future self.
660
00:32:33.403 --> 00:32:33.963
Yeah, maybe.
661
00:32:33.983 --> 00:32:34.483
Yeah.
662
00:32:34.503 --> 00:32:35.104
I could buy that.
663
00:32:35.184 --> 00:32:35.464
Yeah.
664
00:32:35.484 --> 00:32:37.205
It's not a bad thing.
665
00:32:37.385 --> 00:32:42.988
Oh, well, here's the thing about why I asked you about being authentic, being an artist, is that I just watched this interview with Seth Godin.
666
00:32:43.488 --> 00:32:43.829
You know him?
667
00:32:43.849 --> 00:32:44.989
He wrote The Gap and...
668
00:32:47.099 --> 00:32:47.740
I don't know what it's called.
669
00:32:47.760 --> 00:32:47.960
Who cares?
670
00:32:48.300 --> 00:32:49.021
Seth Godin, we all know.
671
00:32:49.742 --> 00:32:51.804
He was just talking to someone about authenticity.
672
00:32:52.224 --> 00:32:58.830
And he said that authenticity is a problem because people say it and it's not possible.
673
00:32:59.231 --> 00:32:59.751
And I'm going to...
674
00:33:00.712 --> 00:33:04.356
He says, when you go to see your doctor, you don't want them to be authentically themselves.
675
00:33:04.376 --> 00:33:06.958
You want them to be their best self working on you.
676
00:33:06.978 --> 00:33:07.619
That's right.
677
00:33:07.979 --> 00:33:09.321
When you go to anyone you see.
678
00:33:09.401 --> 00:33:15.468
And so when you sign up to do social media, you don't want to see someone be authentically themselves on any given day.
679
00:33:15.489 --> 00:33:17.271
You want them to show you their best stuff.
680
00:33:17.291 --> 00:33:18.192
That's what you're paying for.
681
00:33:18.692 --> 00:33:21.155
So these people that are saying they want to be authentic are just...
682
00:33:22.144 --> 00:33:26.625
getting away from the point or getting away from the job that they're doing, the part they're playing.
683
00:33:27.326 --> 00:33:28.886
And he also said perfectionism.
684
00:33:29.066 --> 00:33:33.888
How perfectionism is just someone stating that it'll never be perfect, so I never have to deliver.
685
00:33:35.148 --> 00:33:43.770
And it's funny you bring both words up in the same story because I think they are these weird, but when it comes to art, it's different because art is an expression.
686
00:33:44.131 --> 00:33:44.891
You want...
687
00:33:45.671 --> 00:33:46.853
I mean, maybe this is wrong.
688
00:33:46.893 --> 00:33:54.027
Maybe when Michael Jackson or when Queen or when Bono gets on stage, do you want them to come out and be authentically themselves?
689
00:33:54.408 --> 00:33:56.852
Or do you want them to come out and perform the song you came to see?
690
00:33:56.872 --> 00:33:57.153
Hmm.
691
00:33:57.778 --> 00:33:59.659
I want each song to be different.
692
00:33:59.819 --> 00:34:00.939
Because I've listened to it.
693
00:34:00.999 --> 00:34:02.099
Than the record, yeah.
694
00:34:02.359 --> 00:34:12.582
Like going to see Pearl Jam ages ago, and they end it with this epic version of Yellow Leadbetter that was so different from the album that I was like, oh.
695
00:34:12.982 --> 00:34:15.583
I'm just fascinated by this idea of authenticity.
696
00:34:15.623 --> 00:34:17.763
Because I feel like I've always wanted to be authentic.
697
00:34:19.744 --> 00:34:23.285
But do people want to see authenticity, really?
698
00:34:24.232 --> 00:34:27.454
You know, when you see authenticity, it's very uncomfortable.
699
00:34:27.534 --> 00:34:27.754
Yeah.
700
00:34:27.954 --> 00:34:30.255
You know, your authenticity shows up beautiful.
701
00:34:30.515 --> 00:34:31.716
I mean, like your work and everything.
702
00:34:32.196 --> 00:34:36.818
But there are some people in their authenticity are a broken down thing.
703
00:34:36.878 --> 00:34:42.481
There are also people who hold up the word authenticity as a way to justify being a dick.
704
00:34:43.421 --> 00:34:43.641
Yes.
705
00:34:43.781 --> 00:34:44.242
That's true.
706
00:34:44.282 --> 00:34:45.102
Just call it.
707
00:34:45.122 --> 00:34:46.363
Like they're telling you the truth.
708
00:34:46.383 --> 00:34:47.623
Like they're disrespectful.
709
00:34:47.643 --> 00:34:48.904
Like they're disrespectful.
710
00:34:49.044 --> 00:34:49.304
Yeah.
711
00:34:49.344 --> 00:34:50.285
He says it like, yeah.
712
00:34:50.425 --> 00:34:51.685
This is who I am.
713
00:34:52.186 --> 00:34:53.086
He's authentic.
714
00:34:55.057 --> 00:34:56.479
Oh, well, probably.
715
00:34:56.499 --> 00:34:57.980
I think it's all.
716
00:34:58.441 --> 00:35:00.924
Oh, I think so, too.
717
00:35:00.984 --> 00:35:15.600
When you when we first brought up the topic of authenticity and how that sort of helps us draw the line between idolatry and something else, natural gravitation and attraction, I guess, is the opposite.
718
00:35:15.620 --> 00:35:15.900
Yeah.
719
00:35:17.517 --> 00:35:20.978
I started trying to think of what breaks idolatry.
720
00:35:21.058 --> 00:35:23.059
What are the tools?
721
00:35:23.239 --> 00:35:24.619
And authenticity is one.
722
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:29.741
I find that very, very difficult because I seek to perform in all ways.
723
00:35:30.101 --> 00:35:31.521
And that shouldn't be frowned upon.
724
00:35:31.741 --> 00:35:33.522
Like performance isn't a bad thing.
725
00:35:33.722 --> 00:35:34.102
Right.
726
00:35:34.902 --> 00:35:35.522
Like a doctor.
727
00:35:35.582 --> 00:35:37.783
You want a doctor to perform at a certain level.
728
00:35:37.983 --> 00:35:39.804
You want actors in a play to perform.
729
00:35:39.844 --> 00:35:40.124
Yeah.
730
00:35:40.164 --> 00:35:41.284
Actors in a movie to perform.
731
00:35:41.324 --> 00:35:42.624
You want athletes to perform.
732
00:35:42.704 --> 00:35:44.125
It's actually a wonderful...
733
00:35:45.105 --> 00:35:49.088
I think there's something about the American spirit that is about performance and achievement.
734
00:35:49.489 --> 00:35:53.272
And we've taken it to an extreme and idolized parts of it.
735
00:35:53.712 --> 00:36:08.645
But I wonder if a component for me that breaks it down and makes something more connective and real is the ability to be messy or the permission to be messy and or the permission to change your mind.
736
00:36:09.085 --> 00:36:09.245
Yeah.
737
00:36:09.585 --> 00:36:13.090
Feel confident to step forward and say, I'm changing.
738
00:36:13.470 --> 00:36:14.672
That's a huge thing.
739
00:36:14.692 --> 00:36:21.320
And I think maybe it kind of touched on in the past, maybe at some AIGA meetings or something, but...
740
00:36:23.078 --> 00:36:28.862
Where, you know, you kind of know a little bit of my work history where I was doing strictly brand design.
741
00:36:28.902 --> 00:36:32.665
And then I started looping in interiors more again and doing things together.
742
00:36:32.685 --> 00:36:38.149
And then, you know, so it's this whole multidisciplinary thing, right?
743
00:36:38.169 --> 00:36:39.750
And there's the whole battle on that.
744
00:36:39.770 --> 00:36:40.991
Like, is it good or bad?
745
00:36:41.011 --> 00:36:41.851
Is it good or bad?
746
00:36:41.871 --> 00:36:44.433
Like, I don't want to be a Jill of all trades, but also...
747
00:36:45.040 --> 00:36:49.145
you know, can show that you can do these different things and every project can be different.
748
00:36:49.165 --> 00:36:49.666
It's great.
749
00:36:50.307 --> 00:37:01.921
And it is fun and interesting, but a big part of that, and also leading into deciding whether or not to leave design behind and go for art again, is this...
750
00:37:03.142 --> 00:37:04.923
like how is that going to read to other people?
751
00:37:04.943 --> 00:37:06.743
How is the fact that I'm changing my mind?
752
00:37:06.763 --> 00:37:08.124
Does it show that I'm not committing?
753
00:37:08.144 --> 00:37:10.945
Does it show that I can't stay focused?
754
00:37:10.965 --> 00:37:11.885
Because I can.
755
00:37:11.965 --> 00:37:23.870
And I think I finally was able to, you know, give myself permission and even pat myself on the back a little bit for being able to see when another door opens or when it's time to pivot.
756
00:37:24.590 --> 00:37:27.851
Like I had a really big contract with a publishing company.
757
00:37:27.871 --> 00:37:30.072
I was the art director for several publications.
758
00:37:30.452 --> 00:37:30.672
Wow.
759
00:37:31.052 --> 00:37:35.853
And the company was, you know, there's an acquisition and 90% of their staff was laid off.
760
00:37:35.873 --> 00:37:36.974
Their contracts were terminated.
761
00:37:37.094 --> 00:37:38.574
And that was one of mine.
762
00:37:39.634 --> 00:37:42.355
And it was right before COVID.
763
00:37:44.195 --> 00:37:49.797
Luckily, you know, thanks to all the moonlighting and others, you know, I had plenty of clients.
764
00:37:50.277 --> 00:37:52.357
So I was like, okay, this is my time to go with that.
765
00:37:52.377 --> 00:37:55.238
And I didn't pursue any other employment or bigger contracts.
766
00:37:56.418 --> 00:38:00.059
I just kept the clients that I had and continued to grow from there.
767
00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:05.304
And then, you know, the next time something like that happened, pivot, pivot, pivot, instead of panic.
768
00:38:05.684 --> 00:38:06.785
I mean, there was some panic there.
769
00:38:06.825 --> 00:38:08.367
I'm not going to say that.
770
00:38:08.387 --> 00:38:10.649
Pivot, pivot, panic, pivot.
771
00:38:10.749 --> 00:38:15.433
You know, like, I see a commission in our future, pivot, don't panic.
772
00:38:15.553 --> 00:38:16.634
Oh, I like that.
773
00:38:16.654 --> 00:38:21.579
But that was a big struggle for part of it was, you know, how has this looked to everyone else?
774
00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:23.921
So there's family to people who have.
775
00:38:23.941 --> 00:38:26.743
following my Instagram for years, and they see me doing this, and now she's doing that.
776
00:38:26.783 --> 00:38:27.223
What does she do?
777
00:38:27.243 --> 00:38:27.923
She's all over the place.
778
00:38:27.943 --> 00:38:28.984
Does she even know herself?
779
00:38:29.384 --> 00:38:29.564
Right.
780
00:38:29.584 --> 00:38:30.945
Does she put it in the end?
781
00:38:31.145 --> 00:38:31.705
Yeah.
782
00:38:31.785 --> 00:38:33.666
And I finally just said, screw it.
783
00:38:34.107 --> 00:38:34.247
No.
784
00:38:34.547 --> 00:38:35.207
You're doing it for you.
785
00:38:35.547 --> 00:38:37.188
I'm really putting you on a pedestal right now.
786
00:38:37.288 --> 00:38:38.389
It's becoming a problem.
787
00:38:38.429 --> 00:38:40.110
Don't idolize me.
788
00:38:40.130 --> 00:38:41.351
Don't idolize me.
789
00:38:41.391 --> 00:38:41.731
Don't.
790
00:38:41.751 --> 00:38:43.052
Never said I was a role model.
791
00:38:44.012 --> 00:38:46.793
I, you know, I've talked about this in the dumbest terms.
792
00:38:47.313 --> 00:38:50.414
I tend to reduce something down to a really stupid example.
793
00:38:50.714 --> 00:38:52.434
Here's an example of a stupid example.
794
00:38:52.834 --> 00:38:56.235
I talk about cutting my hair, changing my hairstyle.
795
00:38:56.415 --> 00:38:59.276
One, because my hair is one of the first things people notice about me.
796
00:38:59.896 --> 00:39:01.236
Whatever, move that aside.
797
00:39:01.996 --> 00:39:08.698
When I cut my hair, if I do especially a significant shift, like I chopped a lot of my hair off a couple years ago,
798
00:39:09.421 --> 00:39:11.903
I feel this sense of distrust.
799
00:39:12.704 --> 00:39:14.866
Almost like people can't pin me down.
800
00:39:14.966 --> 00:39:15.887
They thought I was this.
801
00:39:15.967 --> 00:39:18.089
I think there's a whole gender thing tied up in it.
802
00:39:18.209 --> 00:39:18.449
Yeah.
803
00:39:18.750 --> 00:39:24.855
Like, oh, I thought, but wait, are we still, what's my, I'm like, nothing has changed here, baby.
804
00:39:24.975 --> 00:39:27.177
Like, why is this such a big deal to you?
805
00:39:27.197 --> 00:39:27.858
Still new.
806
00:39:27.878 --> 00:39:29.359
I'm sorry to bring that up.
807
00:39:29.620 --> 00:39:33.123
I know because you've got the story about shaving your head unexpectedly.
808
00:39:33.643 --> 00:39:49.751
But I think it gives people pause and it doesn't give us, it makes us feel as if we don't have social permission to evolve or to become someone else or to experiment or express ourselves in a different way to discover ourselves through a process.
809
00:39:49.891 --> 00:39:56.014
And does that come back to other people and how they idolize us and their, you know, people just have to know too much?
810
00:39:56.074 --> 00:39:56.375
Like, why?
811
00:39:56.395 --> 00:39:57.115
We don't have to.
812
00:39:58.066 --> 00:40:00.108
I'm just obsessed with my hair.
813
00:40:00.148 --> 00:40:01.028
It's a nosey.
814
00:40:01.128 --> 00:40:01.629
It's a nosey.
815
00:40:01.669 --> 00:40:02.189
Real.
816
00:40:02.329 --> 00:40:05.471
We are the nosiest world ever.
817
00:40:05.491 --> 00:40:07.052
The nosiest civilization.
818
00:40:07.152 --> 00:40:08.633
I got small town trauma.
819
00:40:08.653 --> 00:40:10.034
What's going on?
820
00:40:10.054 --> 00:40:10.214
Don't.
821
00:40:10.234 --> 00:40:10.915
What you doing?
822
00:40:10.935 --> 00:40:11.415
Nosy, nosy.
823
00:40:11.495 --> 00:40:12.255
Oh my gosh.
824
00:40:12.355 --> 00:40:12.876
Yeah.
825
00:40:13.932 --> 00:40:15.433
Well, I think...
826
00:40:15.493 --> 00:40:20.175
I will say that there is an intersection between authenticity and originality.
827
00:40:20.495 --> 00:40:33.480
I think oftentimes, if you are truly showing up authentic and if your work is truly authentic, then perhaps if you, whatever your uniqueness is, shines through that.
828
00:40:34.060 --> 00:40:41.063
And something comes to mind recently, and it was, I don't know if you guys saw Rebel Ice Cream is getting...
829
00:40:41.083 --> 00:40:42.043
Sorry, post, yeah.
830
00:40:42.083 --> 00:40:43.484
Yeah, they got... Rebel Ice Cream?
831
00:40:43.904 --> 00:40:48.928
Yeah, Rebel Ice Cream got sued by the Van... Van Luen.
832
00:40:49.028 --> 00:40:49.609
Van Luen.
833
00:40:49.629 --> 00:40:57.436
And Van Luen, who was branded by Pentagram, Rebel Ice Cream, the owners, did it themselves.
834
00:40:57.956 --> 00:41:05.763
And instead of trying to be their authentic selves and show their originality, they completely copy the Van Luen plan.
835
00:41:06.103 --> 00:41:10.587
I don't necessarily think they copied it because it says that the Van Luen brand was only released a year.
836
00:41:10.967 --> 00:41:30.406
before the release of rebel but it was out I know but from a product standpoint you're designing that brand for packaging and two years ahead if you're gonna get things on the shelf it's like it could have been this it was just all looking at the same Pinterest board like it was just really bad I think it was horrible timing and all of a sudden you've got like a palette that was popular
837
00:41:31.186 --> 00:41:38.550
You have script writing that's popular, and you have minimalists, which is popular, and all of a sudden it ends in the same place.
838
00:41:38.611 --> 00:41:42.193
Well, the sadness is it cost them $23 million, and they're folding.
839
00:41:42.253 --> 00:41:43.513
They file Chapter 11.
840
00:41:44.214 --> 00:41:46.435
Don't you think this is true?
841
00:41:46.575 --> 00:41:47.796
I don't care what you think.
842
00:41:47.816 --> 00:41:48.396
This is true.
843
00:41:48.516 --> 00:41:49.897
This is true.
844
00:41:49.917 --> 00:41:51.918
Whatever you say, this is what I believe.
845
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:58.702
Because of the Internet, because of globalization and the constant receipts,
846
00:41:59.353 --> 00:42:10.237
You know, you would have stories of people putting on shows or like circus acts with fake idols, fake things that they dug up.
847
00:42:10.437 --> 00:42:18.800
Like they heard about a fossil that had been discovered in South America and somebody would replicate it and go on tour and pretend like they had the original thing.
848
00:42:19.820 --> 00:42:26.623
We had no way of tracking that or understanding that because journalism and documentation couldn't keep up with people.
849
00:42:26.643 --> 00:42:27.603
We couldn't pin people down.
850
00:42:27.844 --> 00:42:37.028
But now, because everything's everywhere all at once, and you can get both of those in a grocery store, presumably, if you're in the right place in the country.
851
00:42:37.048 --> 00:42:37.708
Same show.
852
00:42:37.888 --> 00:42:39.048
Somebody notices.
853
00:42:39.148 --> 00:42:42.450
Somebody's IP lawyer is out there hunting these things down.
854
00:42:43.110 --> 00:42:44.631
Disney is a great example of this.
855
00:42:45.452 --> 00:42:49.594
So it does, it seems to me like we're going to have a rash of these.
856
00:42:50.054 --> 00:42:57.039
We're about to have a moment where a bunch of people are designing something behind closed doors, not intending to do harm to a competitor.
857
00:42:57.339 --> 00:42:58.720
Using the same inspiration.
858
00:42:59.140 --> 00:43:08.746
And analyzing the same market and saying, hey, I want to capture the highest value opportunity here and designing to that.
859
00:43:08.806 --> 00:43:11.968
And we're getting pretty good at designing fit for function, right?
860
00:43:11.988 --> 00:43:12.168
Right.
861
00:43:12.748 --> 00:43:14.529
And unique is only first to the market.
862
00:43:14.869 --> 00:43:17.511
There's nothing unique about design.
863
00:43:17.551 --> 00:43:22.494
I mean, we had one episode where we talked about authenticity, and it came down to your experience.
864
00:43:22.714 --> 00:43:26.617
The original nature of your experience is the only thing unique about this life.
865
00:43:26.757 --> 00:43:27.037
Right.
866
00:43:27.317 --> 00:43:28.338
You're going to create stuff.
867
00:43:28.558 --> 00:43:35.322
If you write songs, if you paint paintings, whatever you do is going to be inspired and put together by the things you've seen.
868
00:43:35.762 --> 00:43:36.883
You're going to be copying things.
869
00:43:36.923 --> 00:43:41.866
You just have to copy in a way where it doesn't feel like the thing that you found your inspiration for.
870
00:43:41.886 --> 00:43:42.066
Right.
871
00:43:42.106 --> 00:43:46.469
But capitalism says I'm losing money because this brand looks like too much like me.
872
00:43:46.489 --> 00:43:47.210
So that's wrong.
873
00:43:47.510 --> 00:43:52.313
So I'm going to take this brand down so that I can stand alone as an idol and make as much money as possible.
874
00:43:52.553 --> 00:43:55.215
But who said it was wrong to look the same?
875
00:43:55.375 --> 00:43:55.595
Right.
876
00:43:55.655 --> 00:43:55.936
Right.
877
00:43:56.136 --> 00:43:57.116
Well, yeah.
878
00:43:57.156 --> 00:43:59.558
Copyright trade trademark laws.
879
00:43:59.618 --> 00:43:59.878
Right.
880
00:43:59.898 --> 00:44:05.222
Copyright because of people trying to steal it and other people thinking I want all the money.
881
00:44:05.362 --> 00:44:06.043
You also...
882
00:44:06.343 --> 00:44:08.184
Sorry, this is a fence that I've been building.
883
00:44:08.224 --> 00:44:09.165
Look, look, no, no!
884
00:44:09.185 --> 00:44:10.426
I was like, what's happening?
885
00:44:10.486 --> 00:44:11.967
I could see it in my periphery.
886
00:44:12.007 --> 00:44:13.088
I'm like, what is she building?
887
00:44:13.108 --> 00:44:14.429
Mary, calm down.
888
00:44:14.749 --> 00:44:15.390
I'm potting.
889
00:44:15.530 --> 00:44:16.911
It's like that scene in Ghost.
890
00:44:17.051 --> 00:44:18.212
There's somebody behind me.
891
00:44:18.232 --> 00:44:19.233
You want to go behind her?
892
00:44:19.273 --> 00:44:19.573
Yeah.
893
00:44:19.954 --> 00:44:22.816
She's like centering some clay in my periphery.
894
00:44:22.856 --> 00:44:23.536
And I'm like, what?
895
00:44:24.137 --> 00:44:24.978
Yeah, to me more.
896
00:44:24.998 --> 00:44:31.483
No, another thing I predict we're going to see, and it's already happening, so...
897
00:44:32.649 --> 00:44:37.352
I think that our nuance on IP law is going to get so specific.
898
00:44:37.793 --> 00:44:50.481
Because so many people make money off of either licensing or commanding a space in terms of specific visual assets, shapes and colors can be trademarked.
899
00:44:50.761 --> 00:44:52.763
Who made a rule that you could own a color?
900
00:44:52.903 --> 00:44:53.443
I know.
901
00:44:53.503 --> 00:44:54.864
That's so dumb.
902
00:44:54.964 --> 00:44:57.866
I think that was the thing that really got Rebel in trouble.
903
00:44:57.966 --> 00:44:58.266
Red?
904
00:44:58.306 --> 00:44:59.147
You own red for it?
905
00:44:59.267 --> 00:44:59.948
With Rebel.
906
00:44:59.968 --> 00:45:00.468
You own red.
907
00:45:00.488 --> 00:45:00.568
Red.
908
00:45:00.608 --> 00:45:01.489
Red had been around.
909
00:45:01.569 --> 00:45:02.789
And how did you find it?
910
00:45:03.230 --> 00:45:16.838
But I will say, though, I think with Rebel, it was the combination of the same color palette, same bold, black, scripty font, and then... Yeah, but... And somebody decided that that was sufficient to take somebody to court.
911
00:45:16.898 --> 00:45:21.321
No, but whatever the color swatch company, they put out a color of the year.
912
00:45:21.341 --> 00:45:21.841
Antone.
913
00:45:21.881 --> 00:45:22.542
Antone.
914
00:45:22.562 --> 00:45:23.522
They put out a color of the year.
915
00:45:23.722 --> 00:45:24.863
That's the same color.
916
00:45:24.883 --> 00:45:25.344
That's true.
917
00:45:25.364 --> 00:45:26.644
So is everyone allowed to use that color?
918
00:45:26.664 --> 00:45:28.606
Or only one company that brings it out first?
919
00:45:28.826 --> 00:45:28.946
Right.
920
00:45:28.966 --> 00:45:29.146
Right.
921
00:45:29.386 --> 00:45:30.246
That's what I'm saying.
922
00:45:30.306 --> 00:45:31.347
Fuck that.
923
00:45:31.727 --> 00:45:33.368
Like protection.
924
00:45:33.428 --> 00:45:34.728
Like I need to make all mine.
925
00:45:34.748 --> 00:45:35.509
Preach, Tim.
926
00:45:35.929 --> 00:45:37.650
I just feel like it's out of control.
927
00:45:37.710 --> 00:45:40.191
And maybe because we built a system that eats itself.
928
00:45:40.471 --> 00:45:44.172
I mean, we are very litigation happy in this.
929
00:45:44.232 --> 00:45:48.854
I mean, God, man, people are just looking for reasons to like sue people.
930
00:45:49.235 --> 00:45:49.895
That's like...
931
00:45:50.015 --> 00:45:51.155
It's gonna be interesting.
932
00:45:51.175 --> 00:45:51.856
It's very weird.
933
00:45:51.876 --> 00:45:53.857
Like I don't even know what you can't.
934
00:45:53.897 --> 00:45:59.059
We're so broke as a civilization that the only way we can get rich is to sue other people.
935
00:45:59.199 --> 00:46:00.859
It seems like that's what's happening.
936
00:46:00.899 --> 00:46:01.740
Like you mentioned Mr.
937
00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:03.420
Beast and no one can copy Mr.
938
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:04.481
Beast.
939
00:46:04.501 --> 00:46:08.442
There have been people that have tried but you can't copy that presence.
940
00:46:08.582 --> 00:46:14.625
So that's where it's coming to this place of like who are you in person is the only thing left.
941
00:46:15.265 --> 00:46:19.629
Until AI can really copy that, which I don't even know that humans would accept it.
942
00:46:19.669 --> 00:46:21.551
It's almost like a virus that your body can't accept.
943
00:46:21.611 --> 00:46:22.792
Like, if this is a fake Mr.
944
00:46:22.812 --> 00:46:24.293
Beast, I don't even want to watch it.
945
00:46:24.454 --> 00:46:30.639
If this is a fake U2 playing me songs or fake- At some point, we revolt as a civilization.
946
00:46:30.679 --> 00:46:31.300
We say, no.
947
00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:31.580
Right.
948
00:46:31.680 --> 00:46:32.781
I think it's already started.
949
00:46:32.801 --> 00:46:34.162
The line has been crossed.
950
00:46:34.343 --> 00:46:35.484
Yeah, I think so, too.
951
00:46:35.504 --> 00:46:36.204
It is with art, too.
952
00:46:36.244 --> 00:46:36.464
I mean-
953
00:46:37.325 --> 00:46:37.945
Oh, my gosh.
954
00:46:38.165 --> 00:46:41.326
Thank goodness, at least for now, it's working in our favor.
955
00:46:41.366 --> 00:46:45.808
And people prefer those imperfections and those blemishes and those maker's marks, right?
956
00:46:46.548 --> 00:46:46.728
Yeah.
957
00:46:46.928 --> 00:46:48.189
We're building on that principle.
958
00:46:48.229 --> 00:46:51.290
And I hope that pans out for us because this is low fidelity.
959
00:46:51.410 --> 00:46:53.251
Is this our maker's mark?
960
00:46:53.671 --> 00:46:56.252
Nobody's going to AI copy this.
961
00:46:56.292 --> 00:46:57.132
Why would they want to?
962
00:46:57.312 --> 00:47:06.659
When we can transcend, when we can get through this litigious period where we're fighting and trying to defend and getting crazy about it, it's going to get so playful and vibrant and fun.
963
00:47:07.179 --> 00:47:14.224
I'm imagining a world where somebody goes to the effort to make an AI avatar of me and come up with things for the AI avatar to say.
964
00:47:14.264 --> 00:47:15.745
That would be hilarious.
965
00:47:15.965 --> 00:47:19.488
And I'm like, okay, if we get to that point, how do we clown it?
966
00:47:20.508 --> 00:47:22.950
How do we invest in the bit?
967
00:47:23.130 --> 00:47:25.671
Right, and that's the thing you were saying about brand becoming idols.
968
00:47:25.851 --> 00:47:31.092
I think it's easy to idolize a surface, a superficial quality.
969
00:47:31.272 --> 00:47:31.472
Yeah.
970
00:47:31.552 --> 00:47:34.813
And you can copy a superficial quality, like the two ice cream companies.
971
00:47:35.073 --> 00:47:39.454
But I guarantee you the heart of those companies, the soul of why they do what they do is different.
972
00:47:39.854 --> 00:47:40.475
Mm-hmm.
973
00:47:40.775 --> 00:47:42.155
And if that were more visible...
974
00:47:42.715 --> 00:47:47.056
But maybe it's not a matter, maybe there's only a certain amount of ways to be visible.
975
00:47:47.096 --> 00:47:49.357
Like if both companies like minimalism.
976
00:47:50.197 --> 00:47:55.267
You know, if both companies like this color palette, it's OK to like the same thing, right?
977
00:47:55.347 --> 00:47:57.090
Like we can all buy the same album, right?
978
00:47:57.111 --> 00:47:59.375
You're not going to sue me for buying the album that you own.
979
00:47:59.395 --> 00:48:00.216
I probably won't.
980
00:48:02.775 --> 00:48:06.016
But the people that buy Rebel are not the same people that buy Van Leeuwen.
981
00:48:06.877 --> 00:48:09.398
Because Rebel was a keto ice cream.
982
00:48:09.438 --> 00:48:09.658
Yeah.
983
00:48:09.858 --> 00:48:11.219
Van Leeuwen is a normal ice cream.
984
00:48:11.239 --> 00:48:11.859
It's a normal ice cream.
985
00:48:11.879 --> 00:48:13.780
So you're like, it's a different audience.
986
00:48:13.880 --> 00:48:21.103
Although maybe there's some consumer insight that says, hey, more people want to be in this alternative diet.
987
00:48:21.343 --> 00:48:22.284
You know, there's all kinds of reasons.
988
00:48:22.304 --> 00:48:23.144
Apparently, because they sued them.
989
00:48:23.164 --> 00:48:24.585
So there's some reason they failed.
990
00:48:24.645 --> 00:48:29.147
Now you're coming out with a healthier ice cream and you have a very similar brand.
991
00:48:29.167 --> 00:48:29.747
There's fear there.
992
00:48:29.787 --> 00:48:30.767
That's my question.
993
00:48:31.407 --> 00:48:33.408
And I don't know that I'll ever get an answer.
994
00:48:33.528 --> 00:48:36.809
And I think the market will sort itself out over time.
995
00:48:36.909 --> 00:48:38.669
I'm kind of bummed that I'm living through it.
996
00:48:38.729 --> 00:48:47.791
Hopefully we can accelerate it by having real conversations like this and just get through this angsty teenage phase that the United States is having and the world maybe is having.
997
00:48:48.291 --> 00:48:55.393
But I deeply wonder, yes, you've talked about culturally trending toward minimalism and who can own that?
998
00:48:55.613 --> 00:48:55.733
Like
999
00:49:00.154 --> 00:49:10.526
But I think a lot of these decisions are actually being made based on a very narrow, we're looking for intersectional consumer segments, right, where maximum impact can be found, niching.
1000
00:49:10.986 --> 00:49:13.189
They both sort of looked at the same niche.
1001
00:49:13.689 --> 00:49:17.273
And I imagine maybe Van Leeuwen was trying to fence in that niche.
1002
00:49:18.613 --> 00:49:19.013
You get it.
1003
00:49:19.033 --> 00:49:20.033
That's the fence.
1004
00:49:20.314 --> 00:49:21.434
Oh, that's what you were building.
1005
00:49:21.494 --> 00:49:22.214
The fencing.
1006
00:49:22.474 --> 00:49:26.816
They were trying to protect that market share and hold it for themselves.
1007
00:49:27.276 --> 00:49:36.439
Meanwhile, from their perception, probably, another company has come in and targeted that group and said, hey, you want to jump fence and come over to this site?
1008
00:49:37.179 --> 00:49:40.040
And maybe it was sneaky or maybe it wasn't.
1009
00:49:40.360 --> 00:49:43.241
But either way, they were designing with those people in mind.
1010
00:49:43.521 --> 00:49:47.002
So they arrived at the same solution because those people wanted that thing.
1011
00:49:47.543 --> 00:49:53.491
But to that, I say, if they can be stolen from you, were they even your customer to begin with?
1012
00:49:54.132 --> 00:49:55.574
Are you doing a good enough job?
1013
00:49:55.635 --> 00:49:59.200
If somebody can just steal them away, you must not have a very fertile...
1014
00:49:59.743 --> 00:50:03.104
happy place that they're living, or you're not listening to their needs.
1015
00:50:03.384 --> 00:50:06.464
You need to evolve with them and be in relationship with them.
1016
00:50:06.885 --> 00:50:08.345
Or yeah, people are gonna jet.
1017
00:50:09.105 --> 00:50:09.305
Right.
1018
00:50:09.325 --> 00:50:09.985
And get permission.
1019
00:50:10.165 --> 00:50:11.265
Okay, I got a good statement here.
1020
00:50:11.506 --> 00:50:14.506
It doesn't matter how it looks, it matters how it lives.
1021
00:50:14.966 --> 00:50:15.626
Yeah.
1022
00:50:15.666 --> 00:50:17.707
That's the thing we get stuck on is the look.
1023
00:50:17.747 --> 00:50:24.048
But you can buy the best looking car, but if it doesn't live well, like I can't buy a sports car because I have three kids.
1024
00:50:24.388 --> 00:50:25.528
That would live horribly.
1025
00:50:26.329 --> 00:50:27.309
I don't care how it looks.
1026
00:50:28.069 --> 00:50:29.570
It doesn't live well.
1027
00:50:29.650 --> 00:50:31.212
And I think branding is the same way.
1028
00:50:31.232 --> 00:50:34.274
You can make your brand look a certain way, but the way it lives.
1029
00:50:34.354 --> 00:50:35.855
And I think the world is coming around.
1030
00:50:35.895 --> 00:50:40.579
Maybe we're creating enough technology to see how something lives really from a lot of different perspective.
1031
00:50:40.599 --> 00:50:40.939
Oh, yeah.
1032
00:50:41.160 --> 00:50:44.943
Video and live and all of these different and feedback.
1033
00:50:44.963 --> 00:50:46.684
We can like people back like that.
1034
00:50:47.885 --> 00:50:53.067
Yeah, so you can see how something's alive, and that's what makes something unique, something that's alive.
1035
00:50:53.367 --> 00:50:58.950
Something that's an idol and stationary and glossed in gold, but the inner core is just hollow.
1036
00:50:59.370 --> 00:51:02.751
It's like a chocolate bunny that has no thinner chocolate.
1037
00:51:02.791 --> 00:51:03.612
It's just hollow.
1038
00:51:03.692 --> 00:51:05.392
Great analogy, the chocolate bunny.
1039
00:51:05.412 --> 00:51:07.013
The important part is to pay attention to that, right?
1040
00:51:07.033 --> 00:51:11.255
Like you said, if you're jumping ship that quickly, then you haven't been...
1041
00:51:12.313 --> 00:51:13.815
Yeah, you had no foundation to be with.
1042
00:51:13.975 --> 00:51:17.260
You were there out of necessity, not out of love, being able to pivot.
1043
00:51:17.300 --> 00:51:19.643
Like if it's a career change and stuff, being able to pay attention.
1044
00:51:20.278 --> 00:51:32.983
Like the technique that I do right now, specifically with charcoal and wood, it literally came from me dropping charcoal on some wood and weeks later when I cleaned it up, paying attention to that mark and like, oh, I want to, this is interesting.
1045
00:51:33.444 --> 00:51:37.485
I could have just tossed it and I probably would have if I cleaned it up right away.
1046
00:51:37.505 --> 00:51:38.166
Right.
1047
00:51:38.566 --> 00:51:40.647
You know, so like being able to pay attention to those cues.
1048
00:51:40.667 --> 00:51:41.507
What a happy accident.
1049
00:51:41.667 --> 00:51:42.347
I love that.
1050
00:51:42.368 --> 00:51:42.788
Hints.
1051
00:51:42.988 --> 00:51:46.049
Even the brand and like how it's performing.
1052
00:51:46.369 --> 00:51:47.790
Would you ever go back to brand design?
1053
00:51:49.368 --> 00:51:50.489
Are you so over it now?
1054
00:51:50.530 --> 00:51:53.293
You look at us and you're like, you guys are doing some shit.
1055
00:51:53.333 --> 00:51:55.096
I don't even know why you're doing what you're doing.
1056
00:51:55.116 --> 00:51:56.297
I know how hard it is.
1057
00:51:56.578 --> 00:51:59.321
I'm going to ask a different question with the same intention.
1058
00:52:00.483 --> 00:52:01.664
Do you take commissions?
1059
00:52:02.245 --> 00:52:02.425
Yes.
1060
00:52:03.146 --> 00:52:03.627
There you go.
1061
00:52:04.007 --> 00:52:06.030
That's the way the world is going, in my opinion.
1062
00:52:06.050 --> 00:52:07.392
Have a very different, like...
1063
00:52:08.452 --> 00:52:31.908
way of doing it too totally i'll bet that's so that it doesn't feel like client work again right yeah and the whole point is if i want to commission you the artist you want her work it needs to be they don't get to weigh in and i'll feel it they don't get to say what you're going to do you're like i think this is they take the size they tell me what they're most drawn to what about my work they're most what inspires them yeah awesome wow what if branding was more like that
1064
00:52:33.171 --> 00:52:33.912
Oh, man.
1065
00:52:33.952 --> 00:52:35.153
Can you imagine?
1066
00:52:35.193 --> 00:52:37.555
Reggie, I want to hire you and just make whatever you want.
1067
00:52:37.575 --> 00:52:39.917
Do you know how many other couple clients like that, maybe?
1068
00:52:39.937 --> 00:52:47.143
I mean, I think at the early days when you are really close and they had time with you, then they are that trusting.
1069
00:52:47.163 --> 00:52:51.427
But I think in this world, everyone is so afraid of failing and doing what's wrong.
1070
00:52:51.507 --> 00:52:51.727
Right.
1071
00:52:51.847 --> 00:52:53.348
And that they're like tight grip.
1072
00:52:53.368 --> 00:52:54.990
Like, this has got to be perfect.
1073
00:52:55.030 --> 00:52:56.271
And we've got to nail this.
1074
00:52:57.011 --> 00:52:58.292
And it loses that...
1075
00:52:59.033 --> 00:53:03.974
that like, I think when I used to describe my creative experience is like going in a dark room.
1076
00:53:04.394 --> 00:53:05.154
Your process.
1077
00:53:05.514 --> 00:53:06.114
My process.
1078
00:53:06.134 --> 00:53:07.395
Now you literally have one.
1079
00:53:07.695 --> 00:53:12.616
I mean, I would go into a project, no idea how I'm going to come to the result.
1080
00:53:12.656 --> 00:53:18.457
And I'm like feeling my way around in the room and I'm looking at knocking things over and I'm like stumbling over myself.
1081
00:53:18.537 --> 00:53:21.258
And then all of a sudden I start to feel around and it starts to make sense.
1082
00:53:21.598 --> 00:53:22.918
And it's almost like I get that like.
1083
00:53:23.438 --> 00:53:25.799
daredevil, you know, where he can see even though he's blind.
1084
00:53:26.159 --> 00:53:27.960
And I start to see everything happen.
1085
00:53:28.220 --> 00:53:29.180
That's so funny.
1086
00:53:29.200 --> 00:53:30.240
That's how it would feel.
1087
00:53:30.300 --> 00:53:31.781
I never see it before it happens.
1088
00:53:32.081 --> 00:53:33.041
Isn't that the weirdest thing?
1089
00:53:33.241 --> 00:53:37.963
I actually love that our processors are so different because mine is completely the opposite of that.
1090
00:53:38.103 --> 00:53:39.763
Do you go into a lit room and knock things over?
1091
00:53:39.803 --> 00:53:40.064
Yeah.
1092
00:53:41.544 --> 00:53:49.956
No, there's just been so many times where I am, especially for brand design and I'm in discovery, I am actually asking questions.
1093
00:53:50.077 --> 00:53:56.947
And while people are talking and I'm learning more about their business in real time, I think part of it honestly was kind of a...
1094
00:53:58.088 --> 00:54:05.997
almost like a crutch because I hated taking notes and I hated having to go back and look at those notes later.
1095
00:54:06.477 --> 00:54:09.340
Like there was just so much extra work and it's tedious.
1096
00:54:09.481 --> 00:54:11.503
And so I would be really active.
1097
00:54:11.543 --> 00:54:15.687
I would record the session, but I'm really engaged and actively listening in the session.
1098
00:54:16.148 --> 00:54:17.609
And I'd say probably...
1099
00:54:18.667 --> 00:54:27.393
I mean, I probably have designed 15 marks literally in the meeting in my head where I just had to go and execute it later.
1100
00:54:27.413 --> 00:54:32.336
And so I already knew I walked out of the meeting already knowing exactly what the brand was going to look like.
1101
00:54:32.957 --> 00:54:39.701
And even if I pitched two different concepts, it was always the one that I came up with in the meeting in my head that they went for.
1102
00:54:39.721 --> 00:54:41.503
So what if you were to do that?
1103
00:54:42.163 --> 00:54:45.687
And then you get into design and you design it and you pitch it and they love it.
1104
00:54:46.088 --> 00:54:50.273
And then you release it or you start looking deeper and someone says, hey, this other brand already had that.
1105
00:54:50.293 --> 00:54:51.194
Looks just like that, yeah.
1106
00:54:51.214 --> 00:54:51.775
What do you do then?
1107
00:54:52.943 --> 00:54:56.446
Well, I say, guys, I hope you have $23 million because they're going to sue you.
1108
00:54:56.486 --> 00:54:57.427
I'm leaving it.
1109
00:54:57.447 --> 00:54:58.528
It ain't on me.
1110
00:54:58.568 --> 00:54:59.569
No revisions.
1111
00:54:59.589 --> 00:55:02.251
This is a huge issue in our industry, though.
1112
00:55:02.452 --> 00:55:09.318
I can't tell you how many naming projects I've worked on where people will pick a name and then they get halfway through the trademark vetting process.
1113
00:55:09.418 --> 00:55:14.783
Hopefully they have their own trademark vetting process because I am not an IP attorney and I tell them that every time.
1114
00:55:15.603 --> 00:55:20.226
They either they skip the process or they gloss over the process.
1115
00:55:20.366 --> 00:55:31.812
And then they discover that either there's somebody who has it completely and that's a bus and they have to go back to the drawing board or there's something that's very similar that they didn't use the right keyword search to find.
1116
00:55:31.833 --> 00:55:36.015
So it really takes category immersion and feeling confident that you've
1117
00:55:36.375 --> 00:55:38.238
explored and traversed the space.
1118
00:55:38.759 --> 00:55:44.507
And frankly, I mean, there are a lot of agencies that hyper specialize in certain industries because of this.
1119
00:55:45.108 --> 00:55:51.978
And you may hire an agency for that reason, but there's also a lot of value in bringing fresh thinking and cross-category thinking
1120
00:55:52.357 --> 00:55:58.260
And those agencies that you hire for that purpose, the big picture guys, you got to be the fallback.
1121
00:55:58.360 --> 00:56:03.382
You got to be the one to bring the market insight, to bring the inside subject matter experts.
1122
00:56:04.082 --> 00:56:12.466
And I think when we ask for that on a project team, people tend to think that I'm being high maintenance or whatever, or prissy because I have such a process mindset.
1123
00:56:12.806 --> 00:56:14.207
But that's really important.
1124
00:56:14.527 --> 00:56:20.189
If you're going to take the fall, if you're going to have the risk, you need to have somebody in the room who can advise and be...
1125
00:56:22.155 --> 00:56:27.505
watching out for supervising the process and saying, ah, actually, I think we're getting into hot water here.
1126
00:56:28.066 --> 00:56:31.192
But I agree that branch should be more like a commission than like a...
1127
00:56:33.117 --> 00:56:34.098
Engineering.
1128
00:56:34.698 --> 00:56:40.122
But what do you say to people who don't have all the time and money and resources to do that hard work that you're talking about?
1129
00:56:40.162 --> 00:56:48.748
It's like when my wife wanted to start her business, we can't go into market research and have trademark lawyers and all this.
1130
00:56:48.768 --> 00:56:51.330
That's only the things that the big guys can afford.
1131
00:56:51.390 --> 00:56:52.691
And then they sue the little guys.
1132
00:56:52.711 --> 00:56:53.671
It's all about the client.
1133
00:56:53.691 --> 00:56:54.012
Yeah.
1134
00:56:54.112 --> 00:56:55.773
But of course, this is your wife, so you can't.
1135
00:56:55.953 --> 00:57:07.477
I mean, any small company, my wife's a small little company, but any company of small, I think under a million dollars or two million dollars, they're running at the edge of survival.
1136
00:57:07.757 --> 00:57:16.860
They don't have lawyers in the back room looking through everything, and so they get caught in a suit with Van Leeuwen that may have had the group of lawyers in the background.
1137
00:57:16.900 --> 00:57:18.820
If they can hire Pentagram, they can take down Rebel.
1138
00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:20.141
They could definitely take down Rebel.
1139
00:57:20.161 --> 00:57:24.582
Which is, it starts to reveal the absurdity of it all, right, and something that,
1140
00:57:25.022 --> 00:57:28.783
When I realized it about trademark law, I don't know a lot about IP law.
1141
00:57:28.963 --> 00:57:30.343
Most of what I know is about trademark.
1142
00:57:30.724 --> 00:57:37.165
What I realized about trademark law that reframed the whole thing for me is it's only as valuable.
1143
00:57:37.225 --> 00:57:40.406
Your trademark is only as valuable as the enforcement you put behind it.
1144
00:57:40.966 --> 00:57:43.707
Cops are not looking for trademark infringement.
1145
00:57:43.807 --> 00:57:47.008
You have to have attorneys, researchers doing that work.
1146
00:57:47.368 --> 00:57:53.592
And somebody like Disney is known for being really on top of that and incredibly litigious.
1147
00:57:53.612 --> 00:57:54.313
They really are.
1148
00:57:54.453 --> 00:57:58.056
They have ruined some careers because people infringed on their IP.
1149
00:57:58.556 --> 00:57:59.416
They also don't.
1150
00:57:59.497 --> 00:58:05.341
They'll pay people up front in lump sums, and then you don't get royalties off of the mega billions of dollars they make.
1151
00:58:05.701 --> 00:58:07.442
But I think it's revealing this.
1152
00:58:07.842 --> 00:58:09.523
What you're saying is a real problem.
1153
00:58:10.484 --> 00:58:14.447
I don't think anybody's going to come for your wife until she hits a scale that's threatening.
1154
00:58:14.467 --> 00:58:14.587
Right.
1155
00:58:15.555 --> 00:58:37.628
right but isn't that a there's an analogy and a metaphor there that we can learn from around oh when you step into your power when you really become a movement when you get the force of people and support behind you you're going to be a threat to someone someone is going to get afraid and and we got to navigate that as a society how do we handle that i don't know you think there's enough room for everybody
1156
00:58:38.903 --> 00:58:45.184
If everybody will do it their own different way, if you'll do it the authentic, original way, you're impossible to.
1157
00:58:45.204 --> 00:58:47.285
Can everyone do it their own original way?
1158
00:58:47.305 --> 00:58:52.766
Because if somebody's original is too close to somebody else's original, they're going to get sued.
1159
00:58:52.986 --> 00:58:54.527
I mean, that's just good.
1160
00:58:54.847 --> 00:58:55.707
I think there is room.
1161
00:58:55.747 --> 00:59:00.748
I think that's what the whole open source movement was about and should still be about is...
1162
00:59:02.089 --> 00:59:04.750
If we work together, we will get further.
1163
00:59:05.610 --> 00:59:09.151
When it comes to research, when it comes to building a market.
1164
00:59:09.591 --> 00:59:14.793
Like, who in God's name thinks Amazon is a healthy thing to have in our world?
1165
00:59:15.433 --> 00:59:17.233
That is not a healthy growth.
1166
00:59:17.513 --> 00:59:19.054
We're guilty of using it.
1167
00:59:19.134 --> 00:59:19.934
And there is no room.
1168
00:59:21.167 --> 00:59:24.329
Multiple people can't be multi-billion dollar companies.
1169
00:59:25.150 --> 00:59:31.434
When that becomes the standard or the goal, obviously you're gonna take everyone out you can because you need more room.
1170
00:59:31.454 --> 00:59:34.756
If a tree's gonna grow that big, it needs the whole ground.
1171
00:59:34.776 --> 00:59:37.258
It needs all the nutrients possible.
1172
00:59:37.338 --> 00:59:40.800
I don't know if the way we've built our world
1173
00:59:41.821 --> 00:59:45.602
sets an incentive or standard to allow room for other people.
1174
00:59:45.902 --> 00:59:51.764
Like a company doesn't have to grow to that level to still be successful, to still live a good life and to provide a good service.
1175
00:59:51.784 --> 00:59:56.605
I just wonder, like when you become a trillion dollar company like Apple, like at what point is enough enough?
1176
00:59:56.725 --> 01:00:01.406
Like at what point like they and they literally just raised all the prices on all of their stuff.
1177
01:00:01.426 --> 01:00:05.187
And I'm like, if you're a trillion dollar company, you can afford to absorb the
1178
01:00:05.827 --> 01:00:07.769
increase, which they said they already had.
1179
01:00:07.809 --> 01:00:09.450
But like, keep absorbing it.
1180
01:00:09.550 --> 01:00:11.091
Like, you're a trillion dollar company.
1181
01:00:11.532 --> 01:00:17.116
That's more money than like, you can't even fathom that amount of money.
1182
01:00:17.337 --> 01:00:21.680
Like, one person or even a hundred people couldn't spend that in a lifetime.
1183
01:00:21.780 --> 01:00:22.020
Oh no.
1184
01:00:22.281 --> 01:00:23.201
It's ridiculous.
1185
01:00:23.301 --> 01:00:24.883
My daughter's like, can we count to a million?
1186
01:00:25.043 --> 01:00:26.384
I was like, I think we could.
1187
01:00:26.784 --> 01:00:27.425
It takes like
1188
01:00:27.885 --> 01:00:30.927
38 days counting like for eight hours a day or something crazy.
1189
01:00:31.027 --> 01:00:32.388
Or maybe that's 24 hours a day.
1190
01:00:32.929 --> 01:00:34.330
That's a measurable amount of time.
1191
01:00:34.690 --> 01:00:39.513
You know, to count to a billion takes like 38 years for something crazy.
1192
01:00:39.833 --> 01:00:40.694
Or maybe a hundred.
1193
01:00:40.754 --> 01:00:44.797
It was something astronomically, like you couldn't do it in a lifetime.
1194
01:00:44.837 --> 01:00:46.218
You have that many dollars.
1195
01:00:46.738 --> 01:00:47.279
I know.
1196
01:00:47.339 --> 01:00:51.462
And so just to know that, I don't even think we comprehend money anymore.
1197
01:00:51.482 --> 01:00:53.243
We're at a million, billion, trillion, trillion, whatever.
1198
01:00:53.263 --> 01:00:56.465
There's a guy who does a really good job of putting that into context.
1199
01:00:56.485 --> 01:00:57.346
And he'll have...
1200
01:00:57.726 --> 01:01:00.567
Like he'll use like either cups, the guy that used the cups.
1201
01:01:00.867 --> 01:01:02.907
There's another guy I've seen use it with rice.
1202
01:01:03.367 --> 01:01:06.228
And he'll say, okay, here's this little pile of rice right here.
1203
01:01:06.728 --> 01:01:09.049
That is $4 million or whatever.
1204
01:01:09.909 --> 01:01:10.749
Or $100 million.
1205
01:01:10.809 --> 01:01:14.330
So that's a serious, solid millionaire.
1206
01:01:14.910 --> 01:01:17.631
And then you look at this big, giant pile.
1207
01:01:17.651 --> 01:01:19.212
It's like, that's a billionaire.
1208
01:01:19.612 --> 01:01:20.352
And you're just like...
1209
01:01:20.832 --> 01:01:22.592
And then you're like, where's Elon Musk?
1210
01:01:22.732 --> 01:01:23.212
I know.
1211
01:01:23.392 --> 01:01:25.693
And then you go, a trillionaire?
1212
01:01:26.013 --> 01:01:26.913
That is just...
1213
01:01:27.533 --> 01:01:30.194
So we built a market that doesn't have room for everybody.
1214
01:01:30.274 --> 01:01:30.754
Yeah.
1215
01:01:30.874 --> 01:01:33.214
And that is the way capitalism works.
1216
01:01:33.314 --> 01:01:34.514
It'd have to be completely started.
1217
01:01:34.594 --> 01:01:35.014
Yeah.
1218
01:01:35.214 --> 01:01:35.755
Scarcity.
1219
01:01:35.775 --> 01:01:41.276
We'd have to tear everything down to the ground and rebuild it like we should with our political system.
1220
01:01:41.296 --> 01:01:43.116
Like what if they tore Amazon down?
1221
01:01:43.236 --> 01:01:46.876
I mean, everyone would complain because they don't get free shipping and instant access.
1222
01:01:47.097 --> 01:01:47.837
Right.
1223
01:01:47.857 --> 01:01:49.397
But what would come up in its place?
1224
01:01:49.897 --> 01:01:55.967
How many different local communities would pop up out of the space?
1225
01:01:57.259 --> 01:02:02.162
I agree with you that we've gotten out of hand and that there's no way with the current... Oh, my wife's hairs is on me.
1226
01:02:02.442 --> 01:02:02.762
Oh, no.
1227
01:02:03.182 --> 01:02:03.842
Are you being attacked?
1228
01:02:03.882 --> 01:02:04.803
Is there a hair?
1229
01:02:04.823 --> 01:02:07.544
My wife's hairs notoriously... Hairess.
1230
01:02:07.784 --> 01:02:08.385
How dare you?
1231
01:02:08.405 --> 01:02:10.105
I'll find them on my... Good.
1232
01:02:10.245 --> 01:02:12.787
And they're just, it's like... You want me to blow?
1233
01:02:12.907 --> 01:02:13.527
Tickling me.
1234
01:02:14.147 --> 01:02:15.728
We'll do a hair check for next episode.
1235
01:02:15.768 --> 01:02:16.208
Thank you.
1236
01:02:16.749 --> 01:02:20.130
By the way, if I've had an alfalfa sprout this whole time, I'm angry at all of you.
1237
01:02:20.150 --> 01:02:21.011
Definitely not.
1238
01:02:21.251 --> 01:02:21.751
That's happened.
1239
01:02:21.771 --> 01:02:22.091
You don't.
1240
01:02:22.111 --> 01:02:22.471
You're good.
1241
01:02:22.491 --> 01:02:22.812
You're good.
1242
01:02:22.832 --> 01:02:24.332
Keep saying what you're saying.
1243
01:02:24.432 --> 01:02:25.253
With the alfalfa sprout.
1244
01:02:25.373 --> 01:02:25.513
I...
1245
01:02:27.205 --> 01:02:29.988
I agree that it's gotten out of hand.
1246
01:02:30.369 --> 01:02:31.450
It's run amok.
1247
01:02:31.830 --> 01:02:33.092
We got to put it in check.
1248
01:02:33.432 --> 01:02:34.793
This is too much money for us.
1249
01:02:34.894 --> 01:02:36.575
It's too small a number of people to have.
1250
01:02:36.595 --> 01:02:37.597
How do we do it?
1251
01:02:37.717 --> 01:02:43.944
And they've done it by means that they will continue to perpetuate, which is like you're saying hacking down anything that's in their way.
1252
01:02:44.224 --> 01:02:45.746
Problematic needs to go.
1253
01:02:46.230 --> 01:02:59.558
However, if you let go of being litigious for a minute, if you're a business owner, even a successful business owner like Van Leeuwen, and I don't understand the full situation, so if you work for Van Leeuwen, I'm sorry for whatever I'm about to say.
1254
01:03:01.179 --> 01:03:01.719
Don't sue us.
1255
01:03:01.860 --> 01:03:05.242
But what if you saw that somebody was ripping off your design?
1256
01:03:05.262 --> 01:03:05.422
Sue her.
1257
01:03:06.312 --> 01:03:08.274
So sue me.
1258
01:03:08.775 --> 01:03:10.116
What if you...
1259
01:03:10.136 --> 01:03:11.097
I used to say that.
1260
01:03:11.117 --> 01:03:11.818
So sue me.
1261
01:03:11.898 --> 01:03:13.599
So sue me.
1262
01:03:13.619 --> 01:03:14.720
Don't say that anymore.
1263
01:03:14.740 --> 01:03:17.383
You can't say it when you become an owner of an agency.
1264
01:03:17.443 --> 01:03:18.104
That is funny.
1265
01:03:18.124 --> 01:03:18.464
So sue me.
1266
01:03:18.544 --> 01:03:20.466
I mean, we'd have to have something worth taking.
1267
01:03:20.486 --> 01:03:21.047
Dude, that's hilarious.
1268
01:03:21.087 --> 01:03:22.188
Is what it comes down to.
1269
01:03:22.288 --> 01:03:22.668
It's true.
1270
01:03:22.728 --> 01:03:24.750
Take me for all I'm worth.
1271
01:03:24.810 --> 01:03:25.531
Joke's on you.
1272
01:03:26.092 --> 01:03:30.015
But I imagine if you didn't get so...
1273
01:03:31.168 --> 01:03:33.751
The word that came to mind was butthurt, but I'll use it.
1274
01:03:34.212 --> 01:03:43.143
Imagine that you didn't get so upset about it and threatened by it, and instead you got curious and said to yourself, oh, interesting, I wonder why they're doing that.
1275
01:03:43.643 --> 01:03:47.068
And then you look deeper, and maybe you find out that they're trying to capture this...
1276
01:03:47.428 --> 01:03:49.649
Capture is such a weird word for consumers.
1277
01:03:49.709 --> 01:03:51.650
So we've got this very strange vocabulary.
1278
01:03:51.930 --> 01:03:52.530
Tell me about it.
1279
01:03:52.750 --> 01:03:55.931
They're trying to capture this segment of your consumer makeup.
1280
01:03:55.971 --> 01:04:01.253
And you feel, again, concerned that these people are going to leave and you're not going to have money to sustain this business.
1281
01:04:01.333 --> 01:04:08.175
And, of course, we all tell ourselves a story about, no, I'm trying to create jobs and support my employees, which I heard.
1282
01:04:08.335 --> 01:04:12.337
But some weird stuff happens through that means of justification.
1283
01:04:12.988 --> 01:04:21.258
What if you got really curious and said, ah, maybe there's some need that that consumer set is not being met in my brand.
1284
01:04:21.678 --> 01:04:28.847
Either one, am I willing to adapt and change to get to know them more deeply and maybe do something that brings them back?
1285
01:04:29.147 --> 01:04:32.808
If they were loyal to me before, we've got a track record, maybe I could convince them.
1286
01:04:33.108 --> 01:04:49.772
Whether that's a social campaign or a limited time offer or a new line of ice cream that's keto, wouldn't that have been fascinating if they came instead of saying, let me take this to court and sue the shit out of you and wreck your business?
1287
01:04:50.873 --> 01:04:53.156
What if they'd said, yeah, let's innovate.
1288
01:04:53.236 --> 01:04:57.842
Let me hire some ex-Rebel ice cream people and get my own formula going and make the formula better.
1289
01:04:57.962 --> 01:05:01.607
And then I've still got the design that I was holding territory on to begin with.
1290
01:05:01.847 --> 01:05:04.350
I had this color system first.
1291
01:05:05.250 --> 01:05:06.471
I'm not saying- And then back authentically.
1292
01:05:06.631 --> 01:05:06.891
Yeah.
1293
01:05:07.071 --> 01:05:11.212
You don't have to become a keto ice cream just because you see that some of your users want to.
1294
01:05:11.473 --> 01:05:17.915
But you need to acknowledge that people are going to behave the way that they want to behave and that we're not pawns to be pushed around sheeple.
1295
01:05:18.335 --> 01:05:22.097
And by doing the legal move, you're kind of cheating.
1296
01:05:22.357 --> 01:05:24.598
It's like you're saying, ref, did you see what they did?
1297
01:05:24.878 --> 01:05:25.538
Referee.
1298
01:05:26.118 --> 01:05:30.120
Meanwhile, we can't get market regulation to actually fix the big picture problems.
1299
01:05:30.300 --> 01:05:32.701
What if they just said, oh, they look like us.
1300
01:05:32.761 --> 01:05:34.442
Well, go try and see if you like it better.
1301
01:05:34.602 --> 01:05:34.842
Yeah.
1302
01:05:35.122 --> 01:05:36.123
And they're like, you don't like it better?
1303
01:05:36.183 --> 01:05:36.883
You buy ours again.
1304
01:05:36.903 --> 01:05:37.904
Yeah, yeah.
1305
01:05:37.924 --> 01:05:40.066
Like, they were threatened, obviously.
1306
01:05:40.086 --> 01:05:40.746
They were afraid.
1307
01:05:41.207 --> 01:05:42.167
And they shut it down.
1308
01:05:42.528 --> 01:05:42.728
Yeah.
1309
01:05:42.908 --> 01:05:45.230
And I know that there's a black and white way to look at this.
1310
01:05:45.290 --> 01:05:47.591
And you just say, yeah, you can't look too much like the other person.
1311
01:05:47.611 --> 01:05:48.552
You can't sound too much like that.
1312
01:05:48.692 --> 01:05:50.153
But you two are both wearing denim shirts.
1313
01:05:50.193 --> 01:05:50.674
Look at you.
1314
01:05:50.774 --> 01:05:51.334
Gray pants.
1315
01:05:51.354 --> 01:05:51.894
Sue me.
1316
01:05:51.995 --> 01:05:52.495
Look at that.
1317
01:05:52.715 --> 01:05:53.736
So sue me, Reggie.
1318
01:05:53.956 --> 01:05:55.437
I'm going to, actually.
1319
01:05:55.637 --> 01:05:56.938
I've already texted my lawyer.
1320
01:05:57.078 --> 01:05:58.199
Paperwork's in progress, baby.
1321
01:05:58.539 --> 01:05:59.560
Oh, my gosh.
1322
01:05:59.740 --> 01:06:00.100
Sorry, man.
1323
01:06:00.120 --> 01:06:01.721
I like that in the art world, too, right?
1324
01:06:01.781 --> 01:06:07.485
There's lots of different genres and subject matters and mediums that all mimic one another, right?
1325
01:06:07.505 --> 01:06:08.725
And they're very similar.
1326
01:06:08.906 --> 01:06:09.306
Oh, yeah.
1327
01:06:09.406 --> 01:06:11.207
Take the compliment is what I say.
1328
01:06:11.367 --> 01:06:11.807
Yeah.
1329
01:06:13.088 --> 01:06:15.909
And artists don't have the funds to go and sue someone.
1330
01:06:16.009 --> 01:06:17.469
And I think that's why our community.
1331
01:06:17.489 --> 01:06:20.230
So they have to just kind of be like, oh, that's awesome.
1332
01:06:20.270 --> 01:06:21.170
How did you do that?
1333
01:06:21.250 --> 01:06:22.230
I did it this way.
1334
01:06:22.710 --> 01:06:26.091
And that's when you start to get into a craft process.
1335
01:06:26.111 --> 01:06:28.672
And then you collaborate together and you promote one another.
1336
01:06:28.812 --> 01:06:30.872
And you have a show together.
1337
01:06:31.152 --> 01:06:32.073
Relationship.
1338
01:06:32.693 --> 01:06:33.693
Ah, relationship.
1339
01:06:34.293 --> 01:06:35.513
Brand, idol.
1340
01:06:35.553 --> 01:06:36.354
Light bulb.
1341
01:06:36.394 --> 01:06:37.574
Van Huyen.
1342
01:06:37.634 --> 01:06:38.454
Wellen.
1343
01:06:38.474 --> 01:06:39.154
Van Llewen.
1344
01:06:39.194 --> 01:06:40.274
Van Llewen idol.
1345
01:06:40.855 --> 01:06:41.415
Surface.
1346
01:06:41.575 --> 01:06:41.875
Llewen.
1347
01:06:41.915 --> 01:06:42.355
Artist.
1348
01:06:42.955 --> 01:06:43.576
relationship.
1349
01:06:43.636 --> 01:06:44.196
Yeah.
1350
01:06:44.256 --> 01:06:44.777
Yeah.
1351
01:06:44.817 --> 01:06:46.198
Like there is a different, I think.
1352
01:06:46.418 --> 01:06:47.119
Spirit maybe.
1353
01:06:47.179 --> 01:06:52.804
I think the art community is definitely more welcoming of people encroaching upon your style.
1354
01:06:52.844 --> 01:06:57.948
Like you said, one, artists can't be litigious because they typically aren't like millionaires.
1355
01:06:58.008 --> 01:06:59.849
And then two, um,
1356
01:07:00.670 --> 01:07:04.491
It is kind of, like for instance, Chuck Close, one of my favorite realist painters.
1357
01:07:04.891 --> 01:07:19.755
I've seen droves of other realist painters like that who used even probably the same style, how he used to take basically, he would grid out his canvas and he would transfer one block at a time from his
1358
01:07:23.436 --> 01:07:24.276
It's a pretty typical.
1359
01:07:24.336 --> 01:07:29.138
Yeah, and people do that, and they have really amazing results.
1360
01:07:29.258 --> 01:07:34.819
But I can't imagine Chuck Close was ever like, I'm going to sue them, because they're doing the same thing I'm doing.
1361
01:07:34.839 --> 01:07:36.260
Yeah, they kind of just have to keep doing it.
1362
01:07:36.320 --> 01:07:37.220
I mean, you get ass out.
1363
01:07:37.240 --> 01:07:37.840
They're like those.
1364
01:07:38.080 --> 01:07:42.321
I inspired a generation of people to do really great art.
1365
01:07:42.381 --> 01:07:44.622
But what it's become, though, is a speed game.
1366
01:07:44.702 --> 01:07:47.843
Because Chuck Close came first, then everyone after is a copycat.
1367
01:07:48.203 --> 01:07:50.464
Coldplay came first, so Keen is a copycat.
1368
01:07:50.484 --> 01:07:51.304
Keen was a copycat.
1369
01:07:52.965 --> 01:07:55.906
And so now we've created a market where everyone's like, I've got to get there first.
1370
01:07:55.926 --> 01:07:58.228
And everyone's like banging each other, elbowing each other out of the way.
1371
01:07:58.508 --> 01:08:03.491
That's what you're seeing with AI is someone has to get there first because then they are the ones that came up with it.
1372
01:08:04.291 --> 01:08:04.632
Oh, okay.
1373
01:08:04.652 --> 01:08:05.172
You were the one.
1374
01:08:05.192 --> 01:08:06.573
So everyone else is a copycat.
1375
01:08:06.673 --> 01:08:09.615
Is it just about getting props for having started a movement?
1376
01:08:09.895 --> 01:08:11.676
You just, at first, they always know.
1377
01:08:11.696 --> 01:08:14.117
They teach you this in company design.
1378
01:08:14.438 --> 01:08:14.818
First...
1379
01:08:15.278 --> 01:08:29.676
wins first is like such a crazy thing you ever go to like a social media post and somebody like has the first comment and the first comment is first i'm like i saw that recently what are they talking i've seen it for years
1380
01:08:30.317 --> 01:08:32.039
It's seriously, that is a thing.
1381
01:08:32.119 --> 01:08:39.786
Like, we're in such a competitive mindset that just being the first person to comment nothing on someone's post is like a thing.
1382
01:08:39.806 --> 01:08:40.767
So now you're not even thinking.
1383
01:08:40.787 --> 01:08:41.208
To celebrate.
1384
01:08:41.228 --> 01:08:42.529
You're just trying to be first.
1385
01:08:42.609 --> 01:08:44.291
And that's a whole different game you're playing.
1386
01:08:44.311 --> 01:08:45.071
That's so weird.
1387
01:08:45.091 --> 01:08:47.734
Than authenticity or whatever else we're at.
1388
01:08:47.774 --> 01:08:48.475
Relationship.
1389
01:08:48.515 --> 01:08:50.036
Like, you're not like, I got married first.
1390
01:08:50.136 --> 01:08:50.497
I win.
1391
01:08:50.577 --> 01:08:51.157
We live.
1392
01:08:51.457 --> 01:08:53.039
Now you got to work with the living community.
1393
01:08:53.139 --> 01:08:53.779
thing that you created.
1394
01:08:53.799 --> 01:08:57.922
You say that, but then people throw these anniversary parties and they're like, we've been, we got very screwed.
1395
01:08:57.942 --> 01:08:59.062
We did that in other, yeah.
1396
01:08:59.102 --> 01:09:00.703
But we ask athletes to come in first.
1397
01:09:01.323 --> 01:09:02.084
I know.
1398
01:09:02.104 --> 01:09:03.104
There's like a pride in performance.
1399
01:09:03.124 --> 01:09:03.785
That's what I'm saying.
1400
01:09:03.805 --> 01:09:04.825
I think on a competitive landscape.
1401
01:09:04.845 --> 01:09:06.766
We idolize athleticism in America.
1402
01:09:06.826 --> 01:09:16.651
I think athletes should, that's an athletic, that's a competitive landscape, but I think there's other arenas that should not be competitive, or they shouldn't be competitive to that degree.
1403
01:09:16.671 --> 01:09:18.012
But when there's reward,
1404
01:09:18.492 --> 01:09:19.353
to be offered.
1405
01:09:19.453 --> 01:09:22.354
Isn't that the same as an athlete, getting a reward for winning first?
1406
01:09:22.595 --> 01:09:23.415
Perhaps.
1407
01:09:23.775 --> 01:09:28.718
If you're first in the market and you get the market share, that's a reward for being first.
1408
01:09:28.738 --> 01:09:31.160
But I think... We've incentivized the game.
1409
01:09:31.380 --> 01:09:31.660
Yeah.
1410
01:09:31.680 --> 01:09:35.703
But if you get there first and nobody gives a shit, you don't get any advantage.
1411
01:09:35.743 --> 01:09:35.983
That's true.
1412
01:09:36.003 --> 01:09:38.064
So I don't think it's about getting there first.
1413
01:09:38.164 --> 01:09:39.065
I think it's about...
1414
01:09:39.785 --> 01:09:42.147
finding a new angle that people want it.
1415
01:09:42.287 --> 01:09:50.593
It's about celebration and pushing the human spirit to new heights and discovering ourselves and figuring out who we are in this big, crazy universe.
1416
01:09:50.973 --> 01:09:55.136
And if we could think of it that way, you can see the competition for what it is.
1417
01:09:55.417 --> 01:09:56.197
Are you saying that?
1418
01:09:56.217 --> 01:09:56.517
A game.
1419
01:09:56.557 --> 01:09:57.278
It's play.
1420
01:09:57.878 --> 01:09:59.019
We're playing with ourselves.
1421
01:09:59.059 --> 01:10:00.140
We're touching our business.
1422
01:10:00.160 --> 01:10:01.041
We're touching our business.
1423
01:10:01.061 --> 01:10:02.102
Touching our business.
1424
01:10:02.962 --> 01:10:11.008
I do think there is something to be said about trying to come up with an idea that people can idolize because there's nothing else like it.
1425
01:10:11.068 --> 01:10:12.029
They haven't seen it.
1426
01:10:12.149 --> 01:10:13.350
Really, you haven't seen it yet.
1427
01:10:13.390 --> 01:10:15.692
Yeah, you haven't seen it yet, so it feels new.
1428
01:10:15.892 --> 01:10:24.859
And then it spirals because then the people that are seeing it for the first time want to be the ones to say, hey, I discovered this thing.
1429
01:10:25.079 --> 01:10:31.023
I'm the first person to see this cool thing that these guys came up with or this new brand or this new, you know,
1430
01:10:31.804 --> 01:10:53.928
deodorant or whatever it is you're like even from brandon deodorant first person to use this you know like oh what do you smell like oh yeah what do you smell like yeah i do i think we i think we're wired that way but i think as business owners we also are trying to come up and craft the original idea because we want it to make us successful isn't that the hardest way to do it i feel like the the
1431
01:10:53.948 --> 01:10:54.408
Oh, totally.
1432
01:10:54.448 --> 01:10:59.310
First mover advantage is also you have to educate everybody about what you're doing.
1433
01:10:59.390 --> 01:11:02.271
And then you crack the door open and everybody floods in behind you.
1434
01:11:02.291 --> 01:11:09.753
Yeah, there was this whole YouTube movement where they were teaching people you can own normal businesses like laundromats and other small car washes.
1435
01:11:10.474 --> 01:11:13.435
And the lady made a whole career.
1436
01:11:13.815 --> 01:11:19.977
She made a whole career out of teaching people how you can make a really successful life out of owning these normal, non-original businesses.
1437
01:11:20.417 --> 01:11:21.937
Ideas like a laundromat.
1438
01:11:22.118 --> 01:11:29.040
Right, like a laundromat or a car wash. And so I'm wondering if we've idolized being original.
1439
01:11:30.180 --> 01:11:32.781
We could get 40 hearts laundromat and have 40 washers.
1440
01:11:32.821 --> 01:11:34.201
Focus on the topic, Reggie.
1441
01:11:34.381 --> 01:11:34.821
I'm sorry.
1442
01:11:34.981 --> 01:11:35.501
I'm just saying.
1443
01:11:35.642 --> 01:11:37.402
Because this comes into music, too.
1444
01:11:37.422 --> 01:11:47.165
We've idolized the musician who can evoke an original emotion and a song, but we've lost what music used to be in culture.
1445
01:11:47.905 --> 01:11:54.908
Music used to be a relational family coming together, singing around the piano or around the fire originally.
1446
01:11:55.508 --> 01:12:00.170
And it was a cultural way of keeping stories and keeping the culture alive.
1447
01:12:00.250 --> 01:12:05.312
And now we find people are like, I wrote this song and it uses this and does this and it's so original.
1448
01:12:05.552 --> 01:12:07.733
Like that's our idolization of originality.
1449
01:12:08.394 --> 01:12:08.874
Can I...
1450
01:12:09.739 --> 01:12:11.400
Oh, yeah, because you're going to.
1451
01:12:12.180 --> 01:12:13.861
You can't stop me on here.
1452
01:12:13.881 --> 01:12:14.581
No, don't even ask.
1453
01:12:14.881 --> 01:12:20.823
So sue me, but I think I worship the creator.
1454
01:12:22.224 --> 01:12:23.344
Abstract that for a minute.
1455
01:12:23.764 --> 01:12:26.665
When a lot of people hear that, they think, I worship the Christian God.
1456
01:12:26.905 --> 01:12:27.166
Right.
1457
01:12:27.366 --> 01:12:28.346
Ignore that part.
1458
01:12:28.966 --> 01:12:30.107
I worship the creator.
1459
01:12:31.787 --> 01:12:33.548
I am the creator.
1460
01:12:34.428 --> 01:12:35.669
I create things.
1461
01:12:35.689 --> 01:12:36.249
Right.
1462
01:12:36.612 --> 01:12:40.275
And so you say to me, we've idolized originality.
1463
01:12:40.796 --> 01:12:42.698
I can hear your point and it's well taken.
1464
01:12:42.778 --> 01:12:48.083
I think there was a function for music in society and it does have to do with relationship and culture and history.
1465
01:12:48.203 --> 01:12:50.505
And we've lost a lot of that and we ought to reclaim it.
1466
01:12:51.246 --> 01:12:55.710
And I say reclaim because it was stolen from us, but that's for another podcast.
1467
01:12:56.486 --> 01:13:00.870
I think that originality is an expression of the divine.
1468
01:13:01.671 --> 01:13:04.093
I think, what brought you there?
1469
01:13:04.454 --> 01:13:12.561
What a wild, chaotic multiverse of opportunity collided to create that thing that you just made.
1470
01:13:13.322 --> 01:13:20.829
And so I think that is, to me, worth, I won't say idolizing, worth attention and love and care for.
1471
01:13:22.005 --> 01:13:24.106
Now why are you doing it becomes the next question.
1472
01:13:24.226 --> 01:13:30.309
But think about how your process suffers if all you worship is originality because babies come out and they copy us.
1473
01:13:31.010 --> 01:13:32.611
That is how they grow.
1474
01:13:32.851 --> 01:13:36.113
But a baby is original from day one.
1475
01:13:36.133 --> 01:13:36.353
Totally.
1476
01:13:36.393 --> 01:13:40.535
But they learn literally how to do things by copying other people's.
1477
01:13:40.875 --> 01:13:44.118
When I was first writing music, I was struggling to write a song.
1478
01:13:44.838 --> 01:13:50.082
And I was in the church and doing worship music, and I hated certain styles of worship music.
1479
01:13:50.122 --> 01:13:51.443
Like, I just despise them.
1480
01:13:51.463 --> 01:13:52.264
They're so cheesy.
1481
01:13:52.484 --> 01:13:54.926
You know, I was a teenager, and I had all my notions.
1482
01:13:54.946 --> 01:13:57.228
Jesus loves me, this I know.
1483
01:13:57.528 --> 01:14:03.753
So literally, I remember the moment I gave up, and I said, fine, I'm going to write a cheesy Christian song.
1484
01:14:04.314 --> 01:14:04.734
Ooh.
1485
01:14:04.794 --> 01:14:06.075
And people loved it.
1486
01:14:06.095 --> 01:14:07.276
It was called Creatures of Praise.
1487
01:14:07.296 --> 01:14:08.076
Okay.
1488
01:14:09.218 --> 01:14:11.363
It went over like nobody's business.
1489
01:14:11.684 --> 01:14:16.776
And then I wrote another cheesy song, and then another cheesy song, and all of a sudden I started writing less cheesy songs.
1490
01:14:18.023 --> 01:14:21.924
It's like I let myself be cheesy and be a copycat.
1491
01:14:22.665 --> 01:14:24.225
And I begin to let myself out.
1492
01:14:24.265 --> 01:14:25.746
You found your originality through copy.
1493
01:14:25.766 --> 01:14:27.346
I had been worshiping the originality.
1494
01:14:27.366 --> 01:14:32.048
I had been trying to write songs like this or that or Radiohead or Dave Matthews Band or all these things.
1495
01:14:32.068 --> 01:14:33.848
And all of a sudden I was like, this is where I am.
1496
01:14:34.689 --> 01:14:35.929
This is what these people want.
1497
01:14:36.309 --> 01:14:39.610
And I just started making the thing I never wanted to be known for.
1498
01:14:39.630 --> 01:14:42.411
It was the weirdest mind shift.
1499
01:14:42.851 --> 01:14:47.972
And it led me to originality because now I can sing spontaneously and not even care about the song.
1500
01:14:48.272 --> 01:14:51.113
So I'm in an assumption, abstraction of originality.
1501
01:14:51.133 --> 01:14:52.173
Kind of a similar path.
1502
01:14:52.193 --> 01:14:52.533
Yeah.
1503
01:14:52.613 --> 01:14:53.514
Do you feel that, Pat?
1504
01:14:53.574 --> 01:14:53.694
Yeah.
1505
01:14:53.994 --> 01:14:57.895
And so I feel like when we idolize originality, we prevent the growth process.
1506
01:14:58.295 --> 01:15:00.115
Because people are like so hard on themselves.
1507
01:15:00.175 --> 01:15:00.935
I got to be original.
1508
01:15:01.035 --> 01:15:01.856
Oh, they did that already.
1509
01:15:01.876 --> 01:15:02.816
They already had that idea.
1510
01:15:02.836 --> 01:15:05.356
And they start like cramping down so hard they can't breathe.
1511
01:15:05.996 --> 01:15:07.777
And then they don't come into their originality.
1512
01:15:07.837 --> 01:15:08.657
It's a growing into.
1513
01:15:13.078 --> 01:15:16.900
So self-critical about the thing that you had access to in that moment.
1514
01:15:16.940 --> 01:15:17.360
Yeah.
1515
01:15:17.460 --> 01:15:23.142
That you, in many ways, by trying to be original versus what was around you, cut yourself off from it.
1516
01:15:23.162 --> 01:15:23.822
Yeah.
1517
01:15:23.842 --> 01:15:27.663
But I would say that's a function of like social dynamic and- Idolization.
1518
01:15:27.683 --> 01:15:28.544
Self-hatred maybe.
1519
01:15:28.564 --> 01:15:30.104
I think there's something else at play too.
1520
01:15:30.164 --> 01:15:37.787
And I think it's a common path for people is when you actually copy other people, you start to, you're sort of honing your skill.
1521
01:15:38.127 --> 01:15:50.213
Yeah, you're practicing, you're honing your skill, and then once you have a solid foundation of how to actually make a song, whether it's a cheesy song that you don't really like, that foundation allows you to then now explore your originality.
1522
01:15:50.253 --> 01:15:52.354
Yeah, I mean case in point, Justin Bieber's new album.
1523
01:15:52.614 --> 01:15:53.015
Yeah, totally.
1524
01:15:53.035 --> 01:15:54.856
It's the second time I brought this up because I'm amazed by it.
1525
01:15:54.896 --> 01:16:05.261
He made the most pop formulated songs for I don't know how many years, and all of a sudden he comes out with an album that's like so inspired by everything I love, but completely originally him.
1526
01:16:05.521 --> 01:16:06.401
Yeah, it's not.
1527
01:16:06.501 --> 01:16:07.802
It's the weirdest thing.
1528
01:16:08.042 --> 01:16:10.683
So we have to allow ourselves to go down that path.
1529
01:16:10.723 --> 01:16:12.064
And I like what you were saying about it.
1530
01:16:12.084 --> 01:16:15.685
It was like I was afraid of people seeing me.
1531
01:16:16.085 --> 01:16:17.966
So I was trying to be original.
1532
01:16:17.986 --> 01:16:20.387
And it was almost as if it was an exterior.
1533
01:16:21.027 --> 01:16:25.509
I looked original versus being myself, even if that felt like a copy to me.
1534
01:16:26.029 --> 01:16:27.490
So there is a pressing question.
1535
01:16:28.350 --> 01:16:30.551
Where can we find all those cheesy songs that you made?
1536
01:16:32.683 --> 01:16:37.526
You know, they are probably in my mom's bootleg drawer.
1537
01:16:37.566 --> 01:16:39.368
She was recording stuff all the time.
1538
01:16:39.908 --> 01:16:40.468
My dad, too.
1539
01:16:41.169 --> 01:16:43.310
Guys, this has been a wonderful conversation.
1540
01:16:43.591 --> 01:16:44.331
It has been.
1541
01:16:44.611 --> 01:16:45.692
Isn't that good?
1542
01:16:45.892 --> 01:16:46.232
Yeah.
1543
01:16:46.252 --> 01:16:48.654
I mean, we could probably talk forever.
1544
01:16:48.874 --> 01:16:50.295
Lindsay, thanks for joining us.
1545
01:16:50.615 --> 01:16:51.396
Yeah, thanks for having me.
1546
01:16:51.516 --> 01:16:52.056
Absolutely.
1547
01:16:52.076 --> 01:16:57.240
I want to give a shout out to Ricky and Will for keeping us tech solid.
1548
01:16:57.620 --> 01:16:59.381
And for that phone alarm that went off.
1549
01:16:59.481 --> 01:16:59.882
Yeah.
1550
01:16:59.902 --> 01:17:00.002
Yeah.
1551
01:17:00.762 --> 01:17:02.622
Oh, man, you're not supposed to call it out.
1552
01:17:03.043 --> 01:17:03.523
Just kidding.
1553
01:17:03.543 --> 01:17:05.983
This is all about showing the real.
1554
01:17:06.243 --> 01:17:07.063
We got a rizm.
1555
01:17:07.383 --> 01:17:07.904
Rizm?
1556
01:17:08.004 --> 01:17:08.484
Razm?
1557
01:17:08.784 --> 01:17:09.164
Rizm.
1558
01:17:09.184 --> 01:17:10.564
What would the children say right now?
1559
01:17:10.584 --> 01:17:11.384
Why are you going?
1560
01:17:11.424 --> 01:17:11.784
Razm.
1561
01:17:11.844 --> 01:17:14.545
I was saying we got to tease him because he's about to leave.
1562
01:17:14.805 --> 01:17:15.345
Oh, razm.
1563
01:17:15.365 --> 01:17:16.265
Right.
1564
01:17:16.305 --> 01:17:17.105
Razm.
1565
01:17:17.125 --> 01:17:18.146
We got a razm.
1566
01:17:18.166 --> 01:17:20.506
We got a rizm might be a different thing.
1567
01:17:20.526 --> 01:17:23.167
We only have Will for one more week.
1568
01:17:23.267 --> 01:17:23.787
Is that true?
1569
01:17:24.127 --> 01:17:24.647
One more week.
1570
01:17:24.707 --> 01:17:25.527
One more week.
1571
01:17:25.547 --> 01:17:25.987
Where are you going?
1572
01:17:26.007 --> 01:17:27.067
We got to laugh so we don't cry.
1573
01:17:27.087 --> 01:17:28.188
Just off to Charlotte.
1574
01:17:28.948 --> 01:17:29.388
Oh, wow.
1575
01:17:29.708 --> 01:17:29.968
Yep.
1576
01:17:30.628 --> 01:17:32.511
Figuring better things, you know.
1577
01:17:32.571 --> 01:17:34.734
I feel like we want to get Will over here and give him a hug.
1578
01:17:34.974 --> 01:17:36.055
Or should we do that next week?
1579
01:17:36.636 --> 01:17:37.637
No hug for you this week.
1580
01:17:38.458 --> 01:17:39.079
No hugs.
1581
01:17:39.159 --> 01:17:39.860
You're all hugs.
1582
01:17:40.181 --> 01:17:41.582
You have to wait until next week.
1583
01:17:42.958 --> 01:17:44.019
All right.
1584
01:17:44.419 --> 01:17:49.001
Thank you for taking, you know, this is obviously we know this is a long show.
1585
01:17:49.381 --> 01:17:55.323
So the fact that you've made it this far, the fact that you actually are here listening to us means a lot to us.
1586
01:17:55.763 --> 01:17:59.145
And we'd also love for you to engage.
1587
01:17:59.205 --> 01:18:05.627
So add some comments if you like it, if there's something, if you have thoughts about idolatry.
1588
01:18:06.127 --> 01:18:06.828
Yeah.
1589
01:18:06.848 --> 01:18:08.288
Hit us up in the comments.
1590
01:18:08.328 --> 01:18:09.709
We'd love to engage with you.
1591
01:18:10.169 --> 01:18:12.030
And until our next episode.
1592
01:18:13.700 --> 01:18:13.980
Bye.
1593
01:18:14.661 --> 01:18:14.941
Bye.
1594
01:18:15.161 --> 01:18:16.742
Man, oh, man.
1595
01:18:16.782 --> 01:18:17.383
That was fun.
1596
01:18:17.623 --> 01:18:19.104
You pulled that word and I was like.
1597
01:18:19.424 --> 01:18:20.125
Thanks for listening.
1598
01:18:20.685 --> 01:18:27.430
This podcast was created and developed by our hosts, Reggie Tidwell, Tim Scroggs, and Mary Green.
1599
01:18:28.354 --> 01:18:30.716
Special thanks to our guest today, Lindsay Gray.
1600
01:18:31.477 --> 01:18:32.959
Produced by Mary Green.
1601
01:18:33.940 --> 01:18:36.522
Live production and editing by me, Will Kennedy.
1602
01:18:37.343 --> 01:18:39.225
Set design by Megan Scroggs.
1603
01:18:39.926 --> 01:18:42.228
Special thanks again to Dylan Garcia.
1604
01:18:43.109 --> 01:18:48.755
Today's episode is presented lovingly by 40 Hearts, creators of enduring value.