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Hello and welcome to Trauma Informed Conversations, the podcast about trauma, healing, and hope.
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Well, hello and welcome to another episode of Trauma Informed Conversations.
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Today I'm exploring a topic that sits right at the heart of so many conversations about children's well-being, behaviour, relationships, and mental health.
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And that's something that I quite frankly don't think we speak about enough.
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And that's emotional literacy.
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So whether you're listening because you're a parent, a carer, social worker, therapist, teacher, anybody really who works supportively with children, I'm sure that you two have experienced moments when maybe a child has been struggling to explain what they're feeling, or perhaps communicating those feelings through their behaviour rather than their words.
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So over the years, through my work with schools, foster carers and social workers, I've noticed that many of those challenges that we talk about, whether it's school avoidance, anger, low self-esteem, really all have something in common.
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And that is that children are trying to communicate to us their emotional experience, perhaps when they don't have the words to do so.
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So I've hunted online for somebody that I thought would be the perfect person to discuss this topic with us.
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And I came across a lovely person called Sharon.
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So Sharon, welcome.
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Um, I don't know whether before we sort of dive into kind of our topic today of emotional literacy, if you would yeah, like to maybe just explain to our listeners who you are and what it is that you do.
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Right, okay.
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Well, I have a broad wealth of experience.
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I have worked for children's services for nearly 15 years.
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I've worked in secure homes, residential homes, um, also in area office doing referrals for things such as secure placements.
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So I've worked with a range of young people who have lots of neurodiverse issues such as ADHD, ADD, the lot, um, over the years.
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And um I've also worked with young people who display SHB, socially harmful behaviors.
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So um that was another another job.
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So unfortunately, I did have to leave that role um because my daughter was was not very well, and plus I have a disability.
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So when I sat back and looked at it, I have this wealth of knowledge and experience that now I can't use.
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So, how can I use this in a different way?
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You know, and because my my grandson obviously has major meltdowns, he's very clearly neurodiverse, going through assessments with him to see what the issues are.
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Um, and my you know, the meltdowns he has is basically about his feelings, his emotions, and things like that, which is how I got the idea to write the books because it was to help him with his emotional literacy, so it basically spiraled from there.
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So, you know, that's that's when Bunny and B came into place.
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Um the Willow Tree Wood.
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I have probably a back catalogue of about 30 books that I'm yet to illustrate, but they are written.
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Oh wow, this emotional art, they cover things such as ADHD and and other issues, and you know, it's it's really just to try to help children understand what it is they're feeling, and also to validate their feelings, yeah, because I do feel very much that you know children's feelings aren't being validated enough.
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It's okay to feel like that, you know, you're entitled to feel that way, and that's okay.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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You can validate adults all the time and say, Yes, you are entitled to feel the way in which you feel.
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Absolutely.
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Children are no different, are they?
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Yeah, who even thinks to say that to a child?
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I don't think it comes naturally to many of us, does it?
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So, I mean, was that sort of the gap that you were hoping to fill with with the books, or was there something else that you kind of noticed that almost yeah?
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Yeah, I mean, we with Astrin, which as you know is the book that that caught your attention because that's the book about bereavement and you know how we can explain that to a child in a very gentle way, and in a way in which they feel held and they feel safe, so it's not clinical, you know, it's an absolutely beautiful story.
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Um, and I think that the reason I actually wrote that first book was that when I worked in um secure welfare, yes, there was a very distinct pattern.
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Now, because I'm neurodiverse, I pick up on patterns that maybe other people don't see.
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And a lot of the people who came through, there was a very high number of people who had had the death of a primary caregiver.
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Okay.
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And you have to sit or a sibling, and you know, you have to sit back and say, you know, has this contributed to the way in which the child now behaves, you know, the way in which they uh uh have processed that loss, you know, or have they processed that loss?
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You know, and Astron is a book that really, because it's non-clinical, it really sort of enables the child to uh move through that grief journey.
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Yeah, you know, so that's why obviously I've put things like notes for parents at the fronts of the books so that people are aware.
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And you know, as I said, I've sent out lots of copies to practitioners so that they know that this resource is there and this resource is available to them.
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Yeah.
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Um, and as I said earlier, with with the lady who came back to me and said this helped me.
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Yeah, so adults too, right?
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And you know, to be honest, and I I know many of our listeners know, and Sharon, I'm not sure, you know, how far back you've read on my LinkedIn, but um, I lost my own brother last March at the age of 30, and you know, spent a lot of time kind of thinking about, you know, me myself as an adult, age of 37, and my own grief journey.
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Then maybe imagining myself at the age of five, or perhaps then putting myself in the shoes of a parent or carer who might then be trying to, you know, help a child to kind of navigate that grief journey.
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And and I think that's the beautifully powerful thing, Sharon, isn't it?
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About books, is that you know, potentially a child might be able to relate to a character and perhaps start to kind of unpick from the point of view of the character, maybe before they then have their own emotional literacy to perhaps start talking about themselves.
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Definitely, yeah.
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And it's it's it's sort of like you know, the the way in which it's written, yeah, very friendly, it's very child friendly.
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I love that it has it has stunning photos, well, yeah, stunning images in it.
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Um, and yes, go me, I'm gonna be really proud of those images because I created them.
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I know, I can't believe that.
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It's amazing what AI art does.
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Um but yeah, I mean it's it's it's a book that's very close to my heart, Astrid.
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Um, it was the first book that I published, and you know, I I just love the way it's such a gentle story that a child doesn't have to have actually suffered loss to read the book.
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Not at all.
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Absolutely.
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We can learn a lot, we can prepare a lot, you know, for unfortunately, what are the very sad certainties of life, you know, even as an adult, you know, those children will grow up and will at some point lose someone or something, you know, very dear to them.
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And it's interesting because I think as well, don't know obviously from your um experience, Sharon, but many people assume that when we think about that phrase emotional um emotional literacy, that it just means maybe a child being able to name their feelings, but it's it's massive, isn't it?
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It's way much more than that.
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Yeah, way more than that, and you know, it's not just about being able to name the feelings, it's how those feelings feel in your body.
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Yes, you know, because a lot of times you have to sit back and say, you know, what is it your body's telling you?
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Absolutely.
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Is your does your tummy feel tight?
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Yeah, does your you know, are your palms sweaty?
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Absolutely, and what's your heart doing?
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Is it pounding?
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Yeah, so many somatic cues, aren't there?
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Yeah, and that then they can relate those feelings to the name.
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So, you know, when you've got a dysregulated child, you know, you can say to them, I can see that this has really upset you, or I can see that you're really angry, I can see that, you know, so you're you're naming the feelings, yeah, and then at a later date you'd sit down with the maybe in a keywording session and you'd say, you know, well, look, when you have this feeling, when you feel angry, what is it that your body feels like?
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You know, and if they don't know, then it's like, well, next time you get angry, right?
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What is it your body's telling you?
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How does how does how does it feel?
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How does anger feel?
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How does sadness feel?
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You know, and I think that's part and parcel of uh the emotional uh literacy side of it, and them understanding what their body's telling them as well, if that makes sense.
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It does, I think.
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There's lots of lots of facets to it, yeah, you know, and it's you know, we we don't and as well, validation of children's feelings, as I said earlier, you know, who validates a child's feelings?
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Who sits there and says, you know, you are perfectly entitled to feel the way you feel, yeah, you know, and that is something that I say a lot to adults, um, you know, especially when I'm talking to somebody who's upset, you know, that they are entitled to their feelings, their feelings are valid, because we need as adults or or or anybody, we need to feel validated, we need to feel that.
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But uh there's very little of that goes on with children from what I've observed in the years that I've been working with.
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Yeah, you know, is actually validating their feelings, that it's okay to feel like that.
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Oh, for sure, for sure.
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And it almost seems to be that, you know, I think societally, you know, if someone's under the age of 16, oh well that that's not a valid, important feeling, you know.
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But actually, you know, any adult that can show up and say, that sounds really difficult, that sounds really tough.
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And I think sometimes it's perhaps, you know, that maybe we as the adult aren't willing to kind of be vulnerable ourselves in that moment because I think to connect with somebody else and kind of understand that they're in pain almost requires something from deep within ourselves, doesn't it, to kind of have that empathy?
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And and I guess I sometimes think as well about emotions in the same way that we might think about language more generally, that you know, you wouldn't expect a child to communicate a complex idea like gravity or something, you know, and never have had a science lesson, you know, where they learn the vocab to do that.
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So emotion isn't really any different, you know.
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But yet some of our children are literally operating with very little vocab, aren't they?
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Happy, sad, angry, worried.
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I mean, how important would you say emotional vocab is for kids?
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Oh, very, very, because I mean, you know, they can say that they're angry, yeah, but they're not actually angry, they're feeling sadness, they're feeling guilt, they're feeling a multiple lump of multiples of feelings, but because they don't they lack that emotional literacy, then it just gets lumped into one feeling.
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When it's not, it's not anger, yeah, it's frustration, it's frustration because they're dealing with this and this and this and this and this, and that actually makes them angry.
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Oh, for sure.
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Um those other feelings, it's going to be very sort of like you know, as you said, angry, happy, sad, whatever.
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They're gonna have a very limited understanding of emotions rather than the wide, varied range that there are.
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For sure.
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Yeah, I think along along with that, we also have to question the parents or the or the adults around them's level of emotional competence and literacy.
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Yes.
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Because we're assuming that because we have that ability, that actually every single adult has that, but they don't, they genuinely don't.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And I think you know, there's so much, you know, like you've said, that adults can learn, you know, along with a child, you know.
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And I think that's also another one of my worries is, and I don't know again, you know, from your own work, Sharon, but a concern for me is that I find that emotional literacy often gets confused with emotional control.
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So you know, if I'm kind of going into maybe a room of foster carers or a school or something like that, you know, maybe delivering training or speaking, you know, and often we'll praise children, won't we, for being calm.
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But actually, emotional literacy isn't about never feeling the big stuff, is it?
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It's you know, really kind of knowing how to feel, how to process.
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But then what do we do with those emotions?
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And I think that's sometimes then when we get involved as the adult, isn't it?
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You know, um we we deal with the behaviors, don't we?
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So it's like you know, you've always got the ABCs, you know, the antecedents, what happened before the behavior, then you've got the consequences, yeah, you know, and you very often we react to the behavior and we don't look at the antecedents, what was happening before this, you know.
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So what upset that child?
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You know, was it a teacher?
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Was it another child?
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Was it this, was it that?
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Yeah, you know, because a child doesn't act out for no particular reason.
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No, you know, and I I think that sometimes we're just so busy trying to deal with the behaviour, yeah, that we don't look at the fact, and sometimes it's actually something we've done.
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So as an adult, we have to say to that child, you know, I'm really sorry that I said that to you, you know, but at the time I felt XYZ, exactly, you know, and what I said to you really wasn't okay, you know, and it's about owning our behaviors because we're expecting children or young people to own their behaviors, yeah.
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Okay, but we're not modeling that through high status behaviors, no, because people just don't, you know, and it's it's really important, it's not a weakness to apologize to a child for getting something wrong.
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We're role modelling, aren't we?
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You know, we're role modeling that as a child we're never going to be perfect, and adults aren't perfect 24-7 either.
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We will make mistakes, you know.
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Think about how many lessons there are there, you know, teaching the power of apology, demonstrating that we know when we've got it wrong, and how we can repair our relationships, you know.
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Um it's true, it's true.
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And I think you know, the more that we can kind of go from you know, that judgment of a child to kind of being curious and sort of exploring together, the better off we're going to be, really, aren't we?
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Yeah, yeah, most definitely.
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And as I said, you know, it's it's it's I mean, I've learned a lot over the years.
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So as we're talking then, it it kind of strikes me that so emotional literacy doesn't happen in isolation then.
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So we're teaching children these skills, aren't we?
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Maybe at home as a family, in school, through their peers, local communities.
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But I think children today are really growing up in a different world, aren't they?
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Than what we were.
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I mean, I wonder whether we might explore a little bit of that, maybe, you know, in terms of how has the emotional world kind of changed?
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Yeah, I mean, well, everything has, hasn't it?
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I mean, right down to language, you know, as I as I said before, you know, the schools are still teaching Shakespeare, right?
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Yeah, Shakespeare, great guy in the 1600s, not relevant to children today.
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Yeah, if you want children to engage, give them something they act actively are interested in and want to engage with.
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You know, they're still learning the same lessons, but they don't need to hear, oh, wherefore are thou whatever.
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I mean, talk like that.
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What they're expected, you know, they're there with a yo blood or whatever.
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Yeah, and you're expecting them to learn Romeo and Juliet.
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Well, they've got a whole new vocabulary, yes, that is now a lot of that is even being put into dictionaries, their new vocabulary that they they you know, it's confusing enough to me as a 55-year-old cry kid.
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You know, yeah, I don't understand half of it.
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I think I needed the urban dictionary.
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Sometimes I'm in there like a wondering what they make.
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Um, but yeah, I mean, things things have changed massively, and you know, I certainly do think that the education system needs to move with it, you know, and introduce a lot more around emotional literacy because I don't actually feel that enough is being done within schools either to enhance a child's emotional literacy.
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Absolutely, and when they're teenagers all getting to the end of, you know, when that's the time that you know they really need to know what how they feel, you know, enable them to build those bonds with their peers, you know, know that actually friendship is a two-way thing, you know, and it's okay if you have an art of disagreement, then you know, everybody owns their bit of it, you know.
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So a lot of it is about ownership of feelings as well.
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We need to own those.
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So not only do we need to validate the child's feelings to enable them to learn, yeah, but also by sort of I don't, I mean, some people might say that they make themselves vulnerable, saying to a child, oh, actually, I felt like this.
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Yeah, this is why I snapped at you, and I'm really, really sorry I did that.
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They see that as a weakness when actually that is a real strength.
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It is, it's being real, it's being authentic, isn't it?
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Being honest, you know, all the things that we lo and behold, that's not Shakespeare, I promise.
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Um, things that we want from the young people themselves, yeah.
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Something else we hear as well a lot from other professionals is that children seem more anxious now.
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That I think for me, I wonder whether actually, you know, our anxiety that we're projecting onto the people onto the children, they feed off of us, you know, they're scientists, you know, so much more complexity, isn't there?
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An uncertainty.
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I mean, you know, when I was a kid, you know, you would go home from school, that would be it, wouldn't it?
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You know, there wasn't really social media as such, you know, you weren't gonna have this 24-7 kind of trip-drip kind of of issues that maybe might have been happening in the day, like bullying or and now it's everywhere, isn't it?
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But you know, it goes, I mean, bullying's a whole different subject, don't get me started on that week, but um, you know, it no longer stops at your door, you know, your bedroom is no longer a safe space, your house is no longer a safe space.
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Yeah, because you know, no matter who it is, they're gonna post something online, that's gonna raise the kids' anxieties, obviously, you know, and we all know that you know kids can be cruel.
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We know that we all can't we all, you know, and it's it's sort of trying to instill in your own children about safeguarding and safeguarding themselves, right?
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Yeah, and I mean, just looking after a child, there are so many aspects that you need to take into account, and it you can't look at I think one thing in isolation.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, like the whole picture, you know, the emotional well-being um is just a tiny bit of it.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Um, you know, that there's so much more when you look at the holistic side, you know, which is We should be working with any any child is using a holistic approach.
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Um, you know, if we want children to be kind, then us as adults need to you know model those high status behaviors, you know, random acts of kindness, run them above.
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Oh, they weren't expecting, you know, just do something nice just for just as a little being nice.
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That way they learn that actually that's a really nice thing to do.
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That made me feel warm and fuzzy.
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Therefore, yeah, I'm gonna do that when I know somebody else is feeling down.
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I'm gonna do that.
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Do something nice for them, yeah.
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Yeah, you know, so if you see that a child's down and whatever, if you do something little, it doesn't even have to cost anything.
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You know, run on a nice bubble bath or something they enjoy, get face masks or yeah.
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I mean, my experience is that even boys, you know, you sit down there.
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:11.279
I mean, my son would sit there if we had a face mask night, you know, me and the two girls and him, and we'd all have face masks on.
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:13.039
Oh, that's fantastic.
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:16.000
That he can't join in.
00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:17.440
Yeah, well, exactly.
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:20.240
There's no rules, you know, around this stuff, is there?
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:37.279
And that kind of makes me think as well about you know, another aspect about you know, children, you know, they've always compared themselves to others, but kind of going back to that point as well about you know what you were saying about technology and and that kind of thing, social media seems to amplify all of that stuff, doesn't it?
00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:41.039
As well, that like self-comparison, yeah.
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:49.440
And I think that I think the comparing themselves to others is is really really dangerous, worrying, isn't it?
00:23:49.680 --> 00:24:18.000
For self-esteem and yeah, yeah, because you know, I mean, we all know the the the tragic stories of of things that have happened to children or things that they've done, um, you know, because of social media and because of bullying, and you know, that's absolutely heartbreaking, you know, and the fact that that bullying doesn't stop even once you get in your house, you know, and your house is your safe space.
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:19.920
Oh, yeah, exactly.
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:21.119
It really, really is.
00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:25.440
But now it isn't, yeah, yeah.
00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:35.279
You know, because and even if it even if you say, right, okay, when you come in, we're not gonna have phones, you know.
00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:40.079
They still go on the phone the following day and they can see whatever anybody else has written.
00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:41.359
Exactly.
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:45.440
Yeah, we didn't have that when we were at school, we didn't have those pressures.
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:52.880
You know, yes, somebody might talk about you, but that's just to one person or two people or whatever.
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:59.839
That's not like the entire world can get access to these things that they're saying.
00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:04.559
Um, you know, and and that is that's awful, you know.
00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:06.240
I mean, technology is very good.
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:09.039
I use technology all the time, I wouldn't be without it.
00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:21.599
But it does also have these downsides, and the downsides do have an impact on children's emotional um liter, well, not just literacy, it's on their emotions as a whole.
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:26.480
As a whole, exactly, the mental well-being, you know, who they kind of identify with.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:32.799
And and just to kind of follow up there on something you said, which I thought was really powerful, it is amazing, isn't it?
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:37.759
You know, that you can literally communicate with people across the world instantly, you know.
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:45.279
Um, but I find that more and more often young people are telling me that they feel lonely and disconnected.
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:48.400
I wonder where that stems from.
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:59.680
Well, I mean, the problem is if you're only talking to people online, you know, and a lot of people don't have their friendship group at school anymore.
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:06.079
Yes, they seem to have their friendship groups online, so these are people they're never gonna see.
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:14.400
But you know, they they talk to them, they form meaningful relationships with them, good friendships with them, you know, the same as we do.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:22.960
Absolutely, but then they're not they're running their life online, they can be who they want to be, yeah.
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:26.160
That's like curation, isn't it, of course?
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:36.319
You know, whereas in reality at school, you know, they could be that kid who has no friends, but online they've got thousands.
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:41.359
Oh, they could be the most popular person ever, you know, and kind of gain that validation, yeah.
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:52.880
But there's a massive disconnection between reality and you know, having that ability to engage with real live people.
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:58.960
I'm not saying people on the internet aren't real live, but no, but that face-to-face kind of interaction, isn't it?
00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:06.559
Yeah, and I I think that that sometimes is difficult when you've got kids now growing up in a digital world.
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:22.000
Yeah, yeah, I think it is digital parenting going on, you know, chuck a child a tablet because actually that's easier than easier, yeah, because we're now more busy, and I'm not saying that as a criticism.
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:24.400
Oh no, everyone's run up there, yeah.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:38.000
Yeah, we've all done it's a tough world, yeah, absolutely, and it is going to be a world of technology, things are going to change, and we need to change with it, and we need to change our attitudes around it.
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:44.559
Obviously, ensure that we have safeguards in place for our children, such as you know, blocks on your computer.
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:56.720
But I think it's you know, we have to be a lot more tech savvy because it seems to be that you know, as soon as they come out of the womb, they're ready to iPads, yeah.
00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:01.279
Yeah, from womb to iPad and two easy steps, you know.
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:03.599
Um, you're right, it's true.
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:22.160
And I almost wonder whether you know, we inadvertently have almost created a situation where it's like children think they have to like sort of be happy 24-7, and and it is that kind of curation of people displaying their perfect self, isn't it, on social media?
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:37.119
You know, they're not gonna be sitting there, you know, looking withdrawn and thinking, Oh, I feel really upset about something that happened today, or it's the kind of perfect kind of smiles and and it's not real, it's not real.
00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:46.319
Yeah, you show on the internet what you want to show, and it's fake, you know, social media 90% of it is just fake, you know.
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:49.519
Oh yeah, you know, I'm not saying people don't actually do these things.
00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:54.720
I go on holidays all over the world, I take loads of photos, absolutely really enjoy myself.
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:56.079
Absolutely, yes.
00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:01.039
Do I show the moments where I'm in chronic pain and I'm crying?
00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:14.000
Yeah, no, no, you know, so on the surface, it looks it looks wonderful, magical, you know, of course in reality, not you, yeah, in its entirety, yeah.
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:26.960
You you don't see the whole picture, you only see the bits, you know, like people posting up about oh, look, they're perfect children who are very well behaved and sitting on so playing with ugly, right?
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:40.480
Yeah, but two seconds later it's like WWE, and you're right, exactly like Velcro because they're killing shown as a post that by you, no, not at all.
00:29:40.880 --> 00:30:00.000
It's post the image of your perfect family and what you want to portray to everybody about yourself, not the real scene behind family life that is messy, chaotic, it's yeah, it's all those things, but do we post that up?
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:02.559
No, we don't that's the thing, isn't it?
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:04.480
And you know, and it's a lot for us as adults.
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:19.119
Never mind, you know, the developing brain trying to navigate the news stories, the global crises, online conflict, you know, other people's emotions that seemingly all of your peers have got it together more than what you have.
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:32.160
They haven't like just like yourself, they're editing out the the pain and the grim bits, and they're just kind of you know, really projecting those kind of perfect lives, aren't they?
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:34.319
Yeah, but then that's what we all do.
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:39.279
I mean, it's not just the kids who do that, we all do everybody, yeah, everybody online.
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:42.720
We want to portray ourselves to be.
00:30:42.880 --> 00:31:03.519
We don't want to portray ourselves to be like, you know, an absolute mess 90% of the time, you know, and let's face it, being neurodiverse, my my brain works like 50 squirrels, and I don't know which one's got the nut most of the time, but you know, um it's we're all like that, we all have those moments.
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:06.319
Yeah, but do we post them up on social media?
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:07.119
No, we don't.
00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:09.359
Normally, no, not at all.
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:22.559
And that's how I think children feel that they're not right, their life isn't the same as everybody else's, you know, when what they're really comparing themselves to is fake.
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:26.319
Yeah, it is not fake, but it's selective.
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:30.880
It's selective and curated and crafted, isn't it?
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:31.519
Yeah.
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:42.160
I mean, I think one thing that reassures me though is that despite all of these changes, and oh boy, has the world changed, yeah, children still need the same basic fundamentals, don't they?
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:46.960
Same, you know, safe relationships, trusted adults, opportunities to talk.
00:31:47.119 --> 00:32:00.079
So I wonder really, what role then do we as adults, kind of, or emotionally available adults I should say, play in helping children navigate that increasingly complex world?
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:02.799
I mean, I I mean, I think it's a case of having that.
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:07.680
I mean, I've always had the kind of relationship with my children that is honest and open.
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:21.200
You know, if they ask me a question, I'm going to answer it in the most honest way that I can in a child-friendly manner that is appropriate to the age of the child.
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:22.480
Absolutely.
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:38.880
And sometimes it sort of feels with some of the people that I've worked with that it's actually the child is more the adult, in the place of the adult, or parenting the adult, even sometimes.
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:43.200
Um that is that's a difficult thing to watch.
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:44.319
Yeah, that's hard.
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:51.039
Yes, it is.
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:51.440
Yeah.
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:58.640
You know, and you have to wonder about the impact on their lives, of course, in the longer term as well.
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:05.920
Yeah, you know, and it's but you know, emotional literacy is just so so important.
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:07.200
It really is.
00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:14.640
It's the it's the little diamond in the middle, and everything works around it, you know.
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:24.079
If you don't have that emotional literacy or emotional competence, you don't understand the world in the way in which the world needs to be understood.
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:33.759
So we need to give the child the tools to enable them to learn, yeah, you know, how is it they're feeling, why is it they're feeling that?
00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:36.720
And actually, it's okay to feel that way.
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:41.759
And that's the main message that it's okay to feel the way that you do.
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:44.079
100% a range of emotions, you know.
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:48.640
We often talk about the roller coaster of life and those ups and those downs.
00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:53.440
And you know, even as adults, we won't feel okay all of the time, you know.
00:33:53.920 --> 00:34:03.519
I wonder, Sharon, if there was maybe you know, just one thing that you could change about the emotional environment for children growing up today, what would it be?
00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:06.400
No pressure.
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:08.880
Yeah, one thing.
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:13.840
Um, yeah, I'm not sure there's just one thing, um, because it's a whole host.
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:22.719
I think it's the fact that people need to realize that they need to use a holistic approach when dealing with children.
00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:40.400
That would be my main thing, that it's not just the emotional literacy, it's everything, you know, you it's the whole body, it's the whole mental, emotional, physical, you know, it's it's everything, isn't it?
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:41.280
Yes.
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:54.960
So, you know, that the the emotional literacy, whatever, is just the little bit, it it's in the middle, and that's where they learn from, you know, and they learn a lot of that by parents modeling high status behaviours.
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:55.840
Oh, 100%.
00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:04.400
I was just about to say that was really weird timing, I was gonna say, yeah, one thing I've learned is literally they are constantly watching us, aren't they?
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:07.440
You know, even when they think we're not, yeah.
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:18.559
Yeah, you know, I mean they they not only feed off our feelings and our emotions, yeah, and that then can, you know, you've got a house that's totally chaotic, you know.
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:21.199
But the fact is it's the kids feeding off of you.
00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:39.760
It is, and we need is we need to take ownership of that as adults, you know, and the way in which we parent needs to be using these high status behaviors, because if we want a child to be respectful to people, we have to be respectful to the child.
00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:40.960
That's how they learn.
00:35:41.199 --> 00:35:43.280
We do, we do, absolutely.
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:58.400
I think, and there's so many different things that we can teach just through being real, you know, going back to your earlier point, you know, us as the adult admitting our mistakes, talking about our own feelings, obviously, in a you know, a safe way, you know, of course.
00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:01.280
I can hear people shouting at their podcast, saying, What do you mean?
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:03.119
You know, are you appropriate guys?
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:08.400
You know, obviously always in a child-friendly, age-appropriate way.
00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:15.840
Um, because you know that's that's important, and yeah, you know, you can you can always do that and explain, you know.
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:19.360
I'm sorry, darling, but mummy's really not having a good day today.
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:20.320
Well, exactly.
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:23.920
Yeah, you don't need to go into the ins and outs, or whatever.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:34.000
Yeah, you know, there are ways in which you can explain things that are age appropriate rather than going into the nitty-gritty details of why it feels that way.
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:34.880
Yes, yeah.
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:38.639
So that's often too far the other way, you know.
00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:55.920
But I think even like maybe us role modelling, you know, when we need a little bit of help, you know, asking for that, or are they seeing suppressing emotions, avoiding difficult conversations, dismissing our own feelings, and almost then thinking, well, that's what grown-ups do.
00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:58.320
Maybe that's how you have to be.
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:14.960
Yeah, and it's um it's sort of it's a funny one because I know that you know, as after growing up, you know, we all experience different things when we're growing up, and you know, as an adult, you have the choice.
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:21.199
Are you going to be the sort of person your parents are, or are you going to be totally opposite?
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:22.239
Oh, yeah.
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:27.360
That's that's a choice you have to make when you get to be an adult, and that's a massive choice.
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:37.679
Um, you know, and some people choose to be exactly the same, and some people choose that actually, I didn't like that, so I'm going to change that, you know.
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:50.639
And I think that's a very important bit that you know, if they don't have the emotional understandings, when they get to that point in their life, they're gonna find that very difficult, you know.
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:56.719
So they need to have it at from a very early age to put that foundation in.
00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:00.000
Like throughout, yeah, yeah, that's true.
00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:03.280
Yeah, because it it happens throughout their life.
00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:19.360
So without that emotional literacy and understanding, they're gonna find that very difficult to not only just move through life, it's about conflict resolution, things like that.
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:30.559
There's there's a lot that comes from it because you know, if you've got somebody who's not emotionally literate, then how are they going to deal with conflict resolution?
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:32.559
Well, that's the problem, isn't it?
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:39.360
And I think the other thing for me is that often, you know, children won't be thinking, Oh, I'm struggling with this.
00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:43.039
They're more likely thinking, there's something wrong with them.
00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:44.400
Yeah.
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:49.760
So it's that, you know, kind of coming back to the kind of normalization, isn't it?
00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:57.840
Of actually, there's not something wrong with you, you know, this is a big situation, this is a difficult thing, even maybe adults might struggle with.
00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:02.639
Yeah, actually, you know, and it's and it's like, and everybody is unique.
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:06.960
You know, nobody fits in a box, it's not one size fits all.
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:17.360
You know, I've got three children, and they're all very, very different, they're all very different to each other because I was a technically a different parent to each of them.
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:18.800
Well of course, yeah.
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:27.679
So obviously, they're all you know, their personalities and everything are totally different to each other, you know.
00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:44.559
And the good thing about the the other books with with like Tufty and Um Pitt, they're all about um, you know, understanding your feelings, and it's okay to feel like that, you're not too much, you know.
00:39:44.800 --> 00:40:08.079
Yeah, and it's the messages that they actually give to the child, yeah, you know, and the fact that they're not clinical is is the main thing behind them, you know, because I wanted books that any child could read, you know, so you don't have to have suffered loss to read Astrin and find it an enjoyable book.
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:18.400
Yeah, right, but actually some of the things you'll pick up out of that book will stay with you, of course, but it's a book that you would come back to and read again.
00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:19.119
Yes.
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:23.840
Whereas the clinical books, why would you want to read them?
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:30.079
They're depressing, they're they're they don't, you know, they do the job, problematizing almost, aren't they?
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:33.280
Rather than thinking about yeah, human experience.
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:40.639
Yeah, yeah, you know, and like like like with with Pip, I mean, you couldn't get more ADHD and anything else than Pip.
00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:42.400
I mean, he's he's well, yeah.
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:50.480
Um but that's okay, it's about the fact of acceptance.
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:55.920
You know, there are people who will accept you for the way you are, you don't need to change.
00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:58.000
There isn't anything wrong with you.
00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:05.599
It's okay to be loud, it's okay to to to do whatever, you know, people are gonna love you anyway.
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:08.320
Oh, of course they are, of course they are.
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:11.440
And by the way, listeners, we will pop the links as well.
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:14.000
Uh, for anybody who's thinking, who's Astrid?
00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:19.039
And you know, we'll pop all the links, you know, when I um share the the episode, Sharon.
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:23.519
We'll make sure that people have those so that they can have a little look and kind of see what we mean.
00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:39.519
But I think what originally drew me to kind of doing this episode with you, Sharon, was you know, I I think I did see a post about one of your books, and kind of the first thing that came to my mind was, you know, what beautiful tools they would be for co-regulation with a child.
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:54.800
Because I think you know, we're we're very good, aren't we, at expecting children to self-regulate with a maybe a first, you know, their their first loss or their first experience of a friendship breakdown or whatever it be, but they're skills to learn, aren't they?
00:41:54.880 --> 00:42:00.800
And and I feel like the books can help with that, but in a sort of non-forced kind of way.
00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:03.199
Yeah, they're very non-clinical.
00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:18.480
And that's the thing I like about them is that you know, when I wrote them, I wrote that with that in mind that you know the young people are going to get something out of this book, but it's a book they'll read again and again.
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:32.960
They're not clinical in any which way, shape, or form, they're just very um explanatory, they explore feelings and you know, and they make the child feel held, which is what they need.
00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:34.880
They need to have that.
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:53.519
And the fact that obviously, I like I said, there are notes in the front of the books to tell people what the books are about, you know, possible questions they could ask a child and things like that, um, was also really important to me to put that in there because it's not just a kid's book.
00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:56.639
Well, it is, but it's it's a tool.
00:42:56.960 --> 00:42:58.159
Yes, you know.
00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:05.199
So if somebody doesn't know how to use a tool, then it's useless.
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:22.320
So that was why I felt it was very important to put like the notes for parents in the books so the parents understand what the books are about, you know, how this can possibly help the child, yeah, you know, and then yeah, sit down and read the book, you know.
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:44.320
Astron Astron's lovely because you have the memory pages at the back that the child can put photos in or whatever they want in the back to keep as part of a memory book, which is you know a very important thing for a child to be able to do, um, you know, and to assist them on that that grief journey.
00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:57.679
But as I said, you know, a kid doesn't have to suffer with loss to be able to read and enjoy absolutely or Pip or Tufty.
00:43:57.840 --> 00:43:59.679
You know, I mean Tufty is basically.
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:03.360
Like you know, bullying, she's being bullied by people because she's different.
00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:09.519
I mean, there might be squirrels that are bullying her because she's different, but it's still bullying, absolutely.
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:20.239
But she's been she's being picked on, she's being you know, isolated from others because of the way in which they're making her feel, you know, and that's not okay.
00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:26.960
Yeah, you know, really not through the book, you know, it explores those feelings, and it turns out actually.
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:29.920
Well, I'm not gonna I know I'm not gonna be given spoiler alert.
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:32.239
I'm not going to say don't don't do it.
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:34.320
Yeah, I'm not gonna spoil it.
00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:48.480
Um but you know it's yeah, it teaches a child that actually, you know, you are unique, you are you, and you can shine, you can make a difference.
00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:51.039
Yeah, you know, I love that so much.
00:44:51.679 --> 00:45:01.760
Um and as I said, I try to to bring that across in all of the books that I do because you know, exploring those feelings.
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:16.719
Yeah, I know the bunny and bee one that I'm nearly ready to release if if I can get my eye to sort out my photographs or fingers crossed, um, has a lot more about like uh you know, they find hidden feelings in the woods.
00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:18.800
Oh, I love that so much.
00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:38.400
They they they find random feelings, um and they they talk to them, they they're there for them, you know, they they sort of don't charge in, they sit quietly away, um or the feeling comes to them for the feeling to unravel.
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:52.320
Um, and it's yeah, I mean they're they're as I said, that all of my books would technically come under the emotional support type are the same.
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:54.880
Um really, really useful, yeah.
00:45:55.039 --> 00:46:20.960
And it's I mean, I've enjoyed writing them so much, I really have, because it's given me the opportunity to help children, which you know, as I said, started off with my grandson, yeah, and now evolved into the you know, hopefully, even if it helps one child, I know the job.
00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:22.400
Yeah, absolutely.
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:37.920
It's not about the book sales, it's not about hitting the best list, it's it's nothing at all to do with that, it's about providing resources that can help a child in need at whatever time in their life.
00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:45.679
So, you know, if they are being bullied and picked on for being different, you know, Tufti is an amazing book for that.
00:46:46.000 --> 00:47:41.440
Absolutely, yeah, and it's really like identifying the the resources that are available for parents to help their child through a time that is really challenging for them, you know, in a non-clinical way, so that the child doesn't feel um sort of isolated or uh you know unable to deal with these feelings, it sort of gives them the ability to be able to help navigate through these feelings, you know, which is so important, and you know, it really helps them to navigate through their life when they know that actually you are not too much, you know, you are enough, you are special, perfect the way you are, you know.
00:47:41.679 --> 00:47:45.199
Yeah, and that's so important for children to know that.
00:47:45.599 --> 00:48:00.559
Um and it's it's been a it's actually been a real privilege to read them because you know, I never thought that you know I'm I'm neurodiverse and dyslexic, you know.
00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:03.039
The last thing I thought I'd ever be doing is writing books.
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:04.639
Well, there we go.
00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:07.519
It says it all, it really, really says it all.
00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:22.079
Um, and I think we've covered so much incredible ground today, and it makes me sad to ask you my final question, which is you know, what do you hope that people will take away from our beautiful conversation today?
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:44.400
Basically, that there are proper resources that are available around these subjects, you know, it's not about just you know letting kids sit on a tablet and and do whatever, you know, books do make a difference, yeah, and certainly the right books make a difference.
00:48:44.559 --> 00:48:59.280
But if people don't know that these resources are available, yeah, you know, and that's the thing, you know, there are some other authors I know, like the Velveteen Rabbit, and there's you know, there's some very good other authors out there.
00:48:59.679 --> 00:49:01.360
Beautiful things, yes, yeah.
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:03.119
Um but we need more, don't we?
00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:04.320
We need more.
00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:10.000
I think mine fit in a bit of a niche all of their own, they're not the same, you know.
00:49:10.159 --> 00:49:14.320
So if you like the Velveteen Rabbit, there's no reason you wouldn't love these books.
00:49:14.559 --> 00:49:14.960
Exactly.
00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:18.639
Um I mean that's the only one I can think of off the top of my head, yeah.
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:24.639
But my books are very different, they sort of sit in the middle somewhere.
00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:34.079
Um, but I mean, you know, we all know that children's reading is really important that they they learn to read and whatever.
00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:38.559
And if they're learning that, why not give them something of substance?
00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:46.159
Yeah, something that can actually help them, you know, rather than just giving them a Janet and John book.
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:48.159
True, you know.
00:49:48.400 --> 00:50:00.559
I mean, if you're gonna read a book, read something that actually gives a message to that child that is helpful, you know, and and that that's my my thing on it.
00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:08.480
That you know, I want really, I mean, I'd love these to be available in schools, I'd love them to be available to not be magical, yeah.
00:50:09.199 --> 00:50:14.800
You know, that way everybody gets to to read them, yeah.
00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:41.679
And like I said, you know, you don't have to be suffering from anything in particular to enjoy the story, you're still getting the message, but it's just uh you know emotional literacy in kids is just so so important, it really is, you know, along with parents modelling that my sister's just behaviours, you know, and only our behaviors, yeah.
00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:48.719
I feel that there's and this is just my personal opinion because I know people probably be shouting, go, I own my stuff.
00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:51.280
Well, great, that's amazing.
00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:56.079
Um absolutely amazing that you own your own stuff and you're quite happy with your child.
00:50:56.239 --> 00:50:58.960
I got this wrong, of course, yeah.
00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:11.199
As many, many other people have, can I just say, you know, yeah, yeah, that's the thing, you know, we aren't living in a perfect world, we are not, you know, no human being will ever be perfect, but what we can be is authority.
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:20.639
So yeah, yeah, we can be honest, and we can, you know, life is messy, life's chaotic, you know, but I'm here for you.
00:51:20.960 --> 00:51:23.599
Absolutely, you know, Sharon.
00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:25.039
Honestly, thank you so much.
00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:38.159
Genuinely, I think it's gonna be so valuable, you know, not only for the audience, but you know, as we said, we will I'll be grabbing the links off of Sharon um as soon as we are logged out of here.
00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:46.320
Um, so that when we upload the uh the podcast, if you want to have a little look at some of uh Sharon's beautiful books and resources, please do.
00:51:46.400 --> 00:51:49.920
But Sharon, thank you so much for joining me today.
00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:54.559
Um, and I'm sure that we'll we'll have you on a future episode at some point as well.
00:51:55.519 --> 00:51:57.599
Yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure.
00:51:57.840 --> 00:51:58.960
So brilliant.
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:00.480
Thank you ever so much.
00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:16.399
Hello and welcome to Trauma Informed Conversations, the podcast about trauma, healing, and hope.
00:00:22.719 --> 00:00:26.960
Well, hello and welcome to another episode of Trauma Informed Conversations.
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Today I'm exploring a topic that sits right at the heart of so many conversations about children's well-being, behaviour, relationships, and mental health.
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And that's something that I quite frankly don't think we speak about enough.
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And that's emotional literacy.
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So whether you're listening because you're a parent, a carer, social worker, therapist, teacher, anybody really who works supportively with children, I'm sure that you two have experienced moments when maybe a child has been struggling to explain what they're feeling, or perhaps communicating those feelings through their behaviour rather than their words.
00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:18.799
So over the years, through my work with schools, foster carers and social workers, I've noticed that many of those challenges that we talk about, whether it's school avoidance, anger, low self-esteem, really all have something in common.
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And that is that children are trying to communicate to us their emotional experience, perhaps when they don't have the words to do so.
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So I've hunted online for somebody that I thought would be the perfect person to discuss this topic with us.
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And I came across a lovely person called Sharon.
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So Sharon, welcome.
00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:53.840
Um, I don't know whether before we sort of dive into kind of our topic today of emotional literacy, if you would yeah, like to maybe just explain to our listeners who you are and what it is that you do.
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Right, okay.
00:01:55.680 --> 00:01:59.120
Well, I have a broad wealth of experience.
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I have worked for children's services for nearly 15 years.
00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:13.280
I've worked in secure homes, residential homes, um, also in area office doing referrals for things such as secure placements.
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So I've worked with a range of young people who have lots of neurodiverse issues such as ADHD, ADD, the lot, um, over the years.
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And um I've also worked with young people who display SHB, socially harmful behaviors.
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So um that was another another job.
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So unfortunately, I did have to leave that role um because my daughter was was not very well, and plus I have a disability.
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So when I sat back and looked at it, I have this wealth of knowledge and experience that now I can't use.
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So, how can I use this in a different way?
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You know, and because my my grandson obviously has major meltdowns, he's very clearly neurodiverse, going through assessments with him to see what the issues are.
00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:32.240
Um, and my you know, the meltdowns he has is basically about his feelings, his emotions, and things like that, which is how I got the idea to write the books because it was to help him with his emotional literacy, so it basically spiraled from there.
00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:36.639
So, you know, that's that's when Bunny and B came into place.
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Um the Willow Tree Wood.
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I have probably a back catalogue of about 30 books that I'm yet to illustrate, but they are written.
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Oh wow, this emotional art, they cover things such as ADHD and and other issues, and you know, it's it's really just to try to help children understand what it is they're feeling, and also to validate their feelings, yeah, because I do feel very much that you know children's feelings aren't being validated enough.
00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:20.800
It's okay to feel like that, you know, you're entitled to feel that way, and that's okay.
00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:22.000
Yeah, absolutely.
00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:28.480
You can validate adults all the time and say, Yes, you are entitled to feel the way in which you feel.
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Absolutely.
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Children are no different, are they?
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Yeah, who even thinks to say that to a child?
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I don't think it comes naturally to many of us, does it?
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So, I mean, was that sort of the gap that you were hoping to fill with with the books, or was there something else that you kind of noticed that almost yeah?
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Yeah, I mean, we with Astrin, which as you know is the book that that caught your attention because that's the book about bereavement and you know how we can explain that to a child in a very gentle way, and in a way in which they feel held and they feel safe, so it's not clinical, you know, it's an absolutely beautiful story.
00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:24.319
Um, and I think that the reason I actually wrote that first book was that when I worked in um secure welfare, yes, there was a very distinct pattern.
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Now, because I'm neurodiverse, I pick up on patterns that maybe other people don't see.
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And a lot of the people who came through, there was a very high number of people who had had the death of a primary caregiver.
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Okay.
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And you have to sit or a sibling, and you know, you have to sit back and say, you know, has this contributed to the way in which the child now behaves, you know, the way in which they uh uh have processed that loss, you know, or have they processed that loss?
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You know, and Astron is a book that really, because it's non-clinical, it really sort of enables the child to uh move through that grief journey.
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Yeah, you know, so that's why obviously I've put things like notes for parents at the fronts of the books so that people are aware.
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And you know, as I said, I've sent out lots of copies to practitioners so that they know that this resource is there and this resource is available to them.
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Yeah.
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Um, and as I said earlier, with with the lady who came back to me and said this helped me.
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Yeah, so adults too, right?
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And you know, to be honest, and I I know many of our listeners know, and Sharon, I'm not sure, you know, how far back you've read on my LinkedIn, but um, I lost my own brother last March at the age of 30, and you know, spent a lot of time kind of thinking about, you know, me myself as an adult, age of 37, and my own grief journey.
00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:14.319
Then maybe imagining myself at the age of five, or perhaps then putting myself in the shoes of a parent or carer who might then be trying to, you know, help a child to kind of navigate that grief journey.
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And and I think that's the beautifully powerful thing, Sharon, isn't it?
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About books, is that you know, potentially a child might be able to relate to a character and perhaps start to kind of unpick from the point of view of the character, maybe before they then have their own emotional literacy to perhaps start talking about themselves.
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Definitely, yeah.
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And it's it's it's sort of like you know, the the way in which it's written, yeah, very friendly, it's very child friendly.
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I love that it has it has stunning photos, well, yeah, stunning images in it.
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Um, and yes, go me, I'm gonna be really proud of those images because I created them.
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I know, I can't believe that.
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It's amazing what AI art does.
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Um but yeah, I mean it's it's it's a book that's very close to my heart, Astrid.
00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:18.160
Um, it was the first book that I published, and you know, I I just love the way it's such a gentle story that a child doesn't have to have actually suffered loss to read the book.
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Not at all.
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Absolutely.
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We can learn a lot, we can prepare a lot, you know, for unfortunately, what are the very sad certainties of life, you know, even as an adult, you know, those children will grow up and will at some point lose someone or something, you know, very dear to them.
00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:51.440
And it's interesting because I think as well, don't know obviously from your um experience, Sharon, but many people assume that when we think about that phrase emotional um emotional literacy, that it just means maybe a child being able to name their feelings, but it's it's massive, isn't it?
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It's way much more than that.
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Yeah, way more than that, and you know, it's not just about being able to name the feelings, it's how those feelings feel in your body.
00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:07.759
Yes, you know, because a lot of times you have to sit back and say, you know, what is it your body's telling you?
00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:08.159
Absolutely.
00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:10.399
Is your does your tummy feel tight?
00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:13.600
Yeah, does your you know, are your palms sweaty?
00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:16.320
Absolutely, and what's your heart doing?
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Is it pounding?
00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:20.000
Yeah, so many somatic cues, aren't there?
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Yeah, and that then they can relate those feelings to the name.
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So, you know, when you've got a dysregulated child, you know, you can say to them, I can see that this has really upset you, or I can see that you're really angry, I can see that, you know, so you're you're naming the feelings, yeah, and then at a later date you'd sit down with the maybe in a keywording session and you'd say, you know, well, look, when you have this feeling, when you feel angry, what is it that your body feels like?
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You know, and if they don't know, then it's like, well, next time you get angry, right?
00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:06.399
What is it your body's telling you?
00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:08.720
How does how does how does it feel?
00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:09.919
How does anger feel?
00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:11.279
How does sadness feel?
00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:24.799
You know, and I think that's part and parcel of uh the emotional uh literacy side of it, and them understanding what their body's telling them as well, if that makes sense.
00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:26.000
It does, I think.
00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:39.840
There's lots of lots of facets to it, yeah, you know, and it's you know, we we don't and as well, validation of children's feelings, as I said earlier, you know, who validates a child's feelings?
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Who sits there and says, you know, you are perfectly entitled to feel the way you feel, yeah, you know, and that is something that I say a lot to adults, um, you know, especially when I'm talking to somebody who's upset, you know, that they are entitled to their feelings, their feelings are valid, because we need as adults or or or anybody, we need to feel validated, we need to feel that.
00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:14.480
But uh there's very little of that goes on with children from what I've observed in the years that I've been working with.
00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:20.799
Yeah, you know, is actually validating their feelings, that it's okay to feel like that.
00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:22.480
Oh, for sure, for sure.
00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:30.720
And it almost seems to be that, you know, I think societally, you know, if someone's under the age of 16, oh well that that's not a valid, important feeling, you know.
00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:36.480
But actually, you know, any adult that can show up and say, that sounds really difficult, that sounds really tough.
00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:55.039
And I think sometimes it's perhaps, you know, that maybe we as the adult aren't willing to kind of be vulnerable ourselves in that moment because I think to connect with somebody else and kind of understand that they're in pain almost requires something from deep within ourselves, doesn't it, to kind of have that empathy?
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And and I guess I sometimes think as well about emotions in the same way that we might think about language more generally, that you know, you wouldn't expect a child to communicate a complex idea like gravity or something, you know, and never have had a science lesson, you know, where they learn the vocab to do that.
00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:15.600
So emotion isn't really any different, you know.
00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:20.000
But yet some of our children are literally operating with very little vocab, aren't they?
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Happy, sad, angry, worried.
00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.559
I mean, how important would you say emotional vocab is for kids?
00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:49.840
Oh, very, very, because I mean, you know, they can say that they're angry, yeah, but they're not actually angry, they're feeling sadness, they're feeling guilt, they're feeling a multiple lump of multiples of feelings, but because they don't they lack that emotional literacy, then it just gets lumped into one feeling.
00:12:50.480 --> 00:13:00.480
When it's not, it's not anger, yeah, it's frustration, it's frustration because they're dealing with this and this and this and this and this, and that actually makes them angry.
00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:01.919
Oh, for sure.
00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:12.559
Um those other feelings, it's going to be very sort of like you know, as you said, angry, happy, sad, whatever.
00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:21.759
They're gonna have a very limited understanding of emotions rather than the wide, varied range that there are.
00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:22.960
For sure.
00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:33.600
Yeah, I think along along with that, we also have to question the parents or the or the adults around them's level of emotional competence and literacy.
00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:34.080
Yes.
00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:44.240
Because we're assuming that because we have that ability, that actually every single adult has that, but they don't, they genuinely don't.
00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:46.320
Yeah, exactly.
00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:53.519
And I think you know, there's so much, you know, like you've said, that adults can learn, you know, along with a child, you know.
00:13:53.919 --> 00:14:06.879
And I think that's also another one of my worries is, and I don't know again, you know, from your own work, Sharon, but a concern for me is that I find that emotional literacy often gets confused with emotional control.
00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:19.840
So you know, if I'm kind of going into maybe a room of foster carers or a school or something like that, you know, maybe delivering training or speaking, you know, and often we'll praise children, won't we, for being calm.
00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:24.399
But actually, emotional literacy isn't about never feeling the big stuff, is it?
00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:29.440
It's you know, really kind of knowing how to feel, how to process.
00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:32.159
But then what do we do with those emotions?
00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:37.200
And I think that's sometimes then when we get involved as the adult, isn't it?
00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:41.600
You know, um we we deal with the behaviors, don't we?
00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:58.639
So it's like you know, you've always got the ABCs, you know, the antecedents, what happened before the behavior, then you've got the consequences, yeah, you know, and you very often we react to the behavior and we don't look at the antecedents, what was happening before this, you know.
00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:00.399
So what upset that child?
00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:02.399
You know, was it a teacher?
00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:03.519
Was it another child?
00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:04.960
Was it this, was it that?
00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:09.039
Yeah, you know, because a child doesn't act out for no particular reason.
00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:22.159
No, you know, and I I think that sometimes we're just so busy trying to deal with the behaviour, yeah, that we don't look at the fact, and sometimes it's actually something we've done.
00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:52.720
So as an adult, we have to say to that child, you know, I'm really sorry that I said that to you, you know, but at the time I felt XYZ, exactly, you know, and what I said to you really wasn't okay, you know, and it's about owning our behaviors because we're expecting children or young people to own their behaviors, yeah.
00:15:53.120 --> 00:16:08.639
Okay, but we're not modeling that through high status behaviors, no, because people just don't, you know, and it's it's really important, it's not a weakness to apologize to a child for getting something wrong.
00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:10.159
We're role modelling, aren't we?
00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:16.240
You know, we're role modeling that as a child we're never going to be perfect, and adults aren't perfect 24-7 either.
00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:18.159
We will make mistakes, you know.
00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:28.399
Think about how many lessons there are there, you know, teaching the power of apology, demonstrating that we know when we've got it wrong, and how we can repair our relationships, you know.
00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:30.720
Um it's true, it's true.
00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:41.600
And I think you know, the more that we can kind of go from you know, that judgment of a child to kind of being curious and sort of exploring together, the better off we're going to be, really, aren't we?
00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:43.519
Yeah, yeah, most definitely.
00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:48.000
And as I said, you know, it's it's it's I mean, I've learned a lot over the years.
00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:54.799
So as we're talking then, it it kind of strikes me that so emotional literacy doesn't happen in isolation then.
00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:57.919
So we're teaching children these skills, aren't we?
00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:03.840
Maybe at home as a family, in school, through their peers, local communities.
00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:08.799
But I think children today are really growing up in a different world, aren't they?
00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:10.160
Than what we were.
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:18.240
I mean, I wonder whether we might explore a little bit of that, maybe, you know, in terms of how has the emotional world kind of changed?
00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:20.960
Yeah, I mean, well, everything has, hasn't it?
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:28.000
I mean, right down to language, you know, as I as I said before, you know, the schools are still teaching Shakespeare, right?
00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:34.000
Yeah, Shakespeare, great guy in the 1600s, not relevant to children today.
00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:43.839
Yeah, if you want children to engage, give them something they act actively are interested in and want to engage with.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:52.559
You know, they're still learning the same lessons, but they don't need to hear, oh, wherefore are thou whatever.
00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:56.480
I mean, talk like that.
00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:01.920
What they're expected, you know, they're there with a yo blood or whatever.
00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:05.119
Yeah, and you're expecting them to learn Romeo and Juliet.
00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:19.279
Well, they've got a whole new vocabulary, yes, that is now a lot of that is even being put into dictionaries, their new vocabulary that they they you know, it's confusing enough to me as a 55-year-old cry kid.
00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:22.640
You know, yeah, I don't understand half of it.
00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:24.480
I think I needed the urban dictionary.
00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:28.319
Sometimes I'm in there like a wondering what they make.
00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:51.839
Um, but yeah, I mean, things things have changed massively, and you know, I certainly do think that the education system needs to move with it, you know, and introduce a lot more around emotional literacy because I don't actually feel that enough is being done within schools either to enhance a child's emotional literacy.
00:18:52.160 --> 00:19:21.680
Absolutely, and when they're teenagers all getting to the end of, you know, when that's the time that you know they really need to know what how they feel, you know, enable them to build those bonds with their peers, you know, know that actually friendship is a two-way thing, you know, and it's okay if you have an art of disagreement, then you know, everybody owns their bit of it, you know.
00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:25.599
So a lot of it is about ownership of feelings as well.
00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:27.440
We need to own those.
00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:46.160
So not only do we need to validate the child's feelings to enable them to learn, yeah, but also by sort of I don't, I mean, some people might say that they make themselves vulnerable, saying to a child, oh, actually, I felt like this.
00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:50.880
Yeah, this is why I snapped at you, and I'm really, really sorry I did that.
00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:55.279
They see that as a weakness when actually that is a real strength.
00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:58.400
It is, it's being real, it's being authentic, isn't it?
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:04.480
Being honest, you know, all the things that we lo and behold, that's not Shakespeare, I promise.
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:08.480
Um, things that we want from the young people themselves, yeah.
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:14.960
Something else we hear as well a lot from other professionals is that children seem more anxious now.
00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:29.519
That I think for me, I wonder whether actually, you know, our anxiety that we're projecting onto the people onto the children, they feed off of us, you know, they're scientists, you know, so much more complexity, isn't there?
00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:30.400
An uncertainty.
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:36.400
I mean, you know, when I was a kid, you know, you would go home from school, that would be it, wouldn't it?
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:51.680
You know, there wasn't really social media as such, you know, you weren't gonna have this 24-7 kind of trip-drip kind of of issues that maybe might have been happening in the day, like bullying or and now it's everywhere, isn't it?
00:20:52.400 --> 00:21:07.279
But you know, it goes, I mean, bullying's a whole different subject, don't get me started on that week, but um, you know, it no longer stops at your door, you know, your bedroom is no longer a safe space, your house is no longer a safe space.
00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:20.000
Yeah, because you know, no matter who it is, they're gonna post something online, that's gonna raise the kids' anxieties, obviously, you know, and we all know that you know kids can be cruel.
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:33.200
We know that we all can't we all, you know, and it's it's sort of trying to instill in your own children about safeguarding and safeguarding themselves, right?
00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:45.759
Yeah, and I mean, just looking after a child, there are so many aspects that you need to take into account, and it you can't look at I think one thing in isolation.
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:46.640
Exactly.
00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:53.519
Yeah, like the whole picture, you know, the emotional well-being um is just a tiny bit of it.
00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:54.400
Yeah, exactly.
00:21:54.720 --> 00:22:05.519
Um, you know, that there's so much more when you look at the holistic side, you know, which is We should be working with any any child is using a holistic approach.
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:18.079
Um, you know, if we want children to be kind, then us as adults need to you know model those high status behaviors, you know, random acts of kindness, run them above.
00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:27.519
Oh, they weren't expecting, you know, just do something nice just for just as a little being nice.
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:31.920
That way they learn that actually that's a really nice thing to do.
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.759
That made me feel warm and fuzzy.
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:38.880
Therefore, yeah, I'm gonna do that when I know somebody else is feeling down.
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:40.079
I'm gonna do that.
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:42.240
Do something nice for them, yeah.
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:51.359
Yeah, you know, so if you see that a child's down and whatever, if you do something little, it doesn't even have to cost anything.
00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:58.640
You know, run on a nice bubble bath or something they enjoy, get face masks or yeah.
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:03.440
I mean, my experience is that even boys, you know, you sit down there.
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:11.279
I mean, my son would sit there if we had a face mask night, you know, me and the two girls and him, and we'd all have face masks on.
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:13.039
Oh, that's fantastic.
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:16.000
That he can't join in.
00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:17.440
Yeah, well, exactly.
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:20.240
There's no rules, you know, around this stuff, is there?
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:37.279
And that kind of makes me think as well about you know, another aspect about you know, children, you know, they've always compared themselves to others, but kind of going back to that point as well about you know what you were saying about technology and and that kind of thing, social media seems to amplify all of that stuff, doesn't it?
00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:41.039
As well, that like self-comparison, yeah.
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:49.440
And I think that I think the comparing themselves to others is is really really dangerous, worrying, isn't it?
00:23:49.680 --> 00:24:18.000
For self-esteem and yeah, yeah, because you know, I mean, we all know the the the tragic stories of of things that have happened to children or things that they've done, um, you know, because of social media and because of bullying, and you know, that's absolutely heartbreaking, you know, and the fact that that bullying doesn't stop even once you get in your house, you know, and your house is your safe space.
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:19.920
Oh, yeah, exactly.
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:21.119
It really, really is.
00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:25.440
But now it isn't, yeah, yeah.
00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:35.279
You know, because and even if it even if you say, right, okay, when you come in, we're not gonna have phones, you know.
00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:40.079
They still go on the phone the following day and they can see whatever anybody else has written.
00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:41.359
Exactly.
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:45.440
Yeah, we didn't have that when we were at school, we didn't have those pressures.
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:52.880
You know, yes, somebody might talk about you, but that's just to one person or two people or whatever.
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:59.839
That's not like the entire world can get access to these things that they're saying.
00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:04.559
Um, you know, and and that is that's awful, you know.
00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:06.240
I mean, technology is very good.
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:09.039
I use technology all the time, I wouldn't be without it.
00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:21.599
But it does also have these downsides, and the downsides do have an impact on children's emotional um liter, well, not just literacy, it's on their emotions as a whole.
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:26.480
As a whole, exactly, the mental well-being, you know, who they kind of identify with.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:32.799
And and just to kind of follow up there on something you said, which I thought was really powerful, it is amazing, isn't it?
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:37.759
You know, that you can literally communicate with people across the world instantly, you know.
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:45.279
Um, but I find that more and more often young people are telling me that they feel lonely and disconnected.
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:48.400
I wonder where that stems from.
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:59.680
Well, I mean, the problem is if you're only talking to people online, you know, and a lot of people don't have their friendship group at school anymore.
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:06.079
Yes, they seem to have their friendship groups online, so these are people they're never gonna see.
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:14.400
But you know, they they talk to them, they form meaningful relationships with them, good friendships with them, you know, the same as we do.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:22.960
Absolutely, but then they're not they're running their life online, they can be who they want to be, yeah.
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:26.160
That's like curation, isn't it, of course?
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:36.319
You know, whereas in reality at school, you know, they could be that kid who has no friends, but online they've got thousands.
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:41.359
Oh, they could be the most popular person ever, you know, and kind of gain that validation, yeah.
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:52.880
But there's a massive disconnection between reality and you know, having that ability to engage with real live people.
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:58.960
I'm not saying people on the internet aren't real live, but no, but that face-to-face kind of interaction, isn't it?
00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:06.559
Yeah, and I I think that that sometimes is difficult when you've got kids now growing up in a digital world.
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:22.000
Yeah, yeah, I think it is digital parenting going on, you know, chuck a child a tablet because actually that's easier than easier, yeah, because we're now more busy, and I'm not saying that as a criticism.
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:24.400
Oh no, everyone's run up there, yeah.
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:38.000
Yeah, we've all done it's a tough world, yeah, absolutely, and it is going to be a world of technology, things are going to change, and we need to change with it, and we need to change our attitudes around it.
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:44.559
Obviously, ensure that we have safeguards in place for our children, such as you know, blocks on your computer.
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:56.720
But I think it's you know, we have to be a lot more tech savvy because it seems to be that you know, as soon as they come out of the womb, they're ready to iPads, yeah.
00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:01.279
Yeah, from womb to iPad and two easy steps, you know.
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:03.599
Um, you're right, it's true.
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:22.160
And I almost wonder whether you know, we inadvertently have almost created a situation where it's like children think they have to like sort of be happy 24-7, and and it is that kind of curation of people displaying their perfect self, isn't it, on social media?
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:37.119
You know, they're not gonna be sitting there, you know, looking withdrawn and thinking, Oh, I feel really upset about something that happened today, or it's the kind of perfect kind of smiles and and it's not real, it's not real.
00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:46.319
Yeah, you show on the internet what you want to show, and it's fake, you know, social media 90% of it is just fake, you know.
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:49.519
Oh yeah, you know, I'm not saying people don't actually do these things.
00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:54.720
I go on holidays all over the world, I take loads of photos, absolutely really enjoy myself.
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:56.079
Absolutely, yes.
00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:01.039
Do I show the moments where I'm in chronic pain and I'm crying?
00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:14.000
Yeah, no, no, you know, so on the surface, it looks it looks wonderful, magical, you know, of course in reality, not you, yeah, in its entirety, yeah.
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:26.960
You you don't see the whole picture, you only see the bits, you know, like people posting up about oh, look, they're perfect children who are very well behaved and sitting on so playing with ugly, right?
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:40.480
Yeah, but two seconds later it's like WWE, and you're right, exactly like Velcro because they're killing shown as a post that by you, no, not at all.
00:29:40.880 --> 00:30:00.000
It's post the image of your perfect family and what you want to portray to everybody about yourself, not the real scene behind family life that is messy, chaotic, it's yeah, it's all those things, but do we post that up?
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:02.559
No, we don't that's the thing, isn't it?
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:04.480
And you know, and it's a lot for us as adults.
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:19.119
Never mind, you know, the developing brain trying to navigate the news stories, the global crises, online conflict, you know, other people's emotions that seemingly all of your peers have got it together more than what you have.
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:32.160
They haven't like just like yourself, they're editing out the the pain and the grim bits, and they're just kind of you know, really projecting those kind of perfect lives, aren't they?
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:34.319
Yeah, but then that's what we all do.
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:39.279
I mean, it's not just the kids who do that, we all do everybody, yeah, everybody online.
00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:42.720
We want to portray ourselves to be.
00:30:42.880 --> 00:31:03.519
We don't want to portray ourselves to be like, you know, an absolute mess 90% of the time, you know, and let's face it, being neurodiverse, my my brain works like 50 squirrels, and I don't know which one's got the nut most of the time, but you know, um it's we're all like that, we all have those moments.
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:06.319
Yeah, but do we post them up on social media?
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:07.119
No, we don't.
00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:09.359
Normally, no, not at all.
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:22.559
And that's how I think children feel that they're not right, their life isn't the same as everybody else's, you know, when what they're really comparing themselves to is fake.
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:26.319
Yeah, it is not fake, but it's selective.
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:30.880
It's selective and curated and crafted, isn't it?
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:31.519
Yeah.
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:42.160
I mean, I think one thing that reassures me though is that despite all of these changes, and oh boy, has the world changed, yeah, children still need the same basic fundamentals, don't they?
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:46.960
Same, you know, safe relationships, trusted adults, opportunities to talk.
00:31:47.119 --> 00:32:00.079
So I wonder really, what role then do we as adults, kind of, or emotionally available adults I should say, play in helping children navigate that increasingly complex world?
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:02.799
I mean, I I mean, I think it's a case of having that.
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:07.680
I mean, I've always had the kind of relationship with my children that is honest and open.
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:21.200
You know, if they ask me a question, I'm going to answer it in the most honest way that I can in a child-friendly manner that is appropriate to the age of the child.
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:22.480
Absolutely.
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:38.880
And sometimes it sort of feels with some of the people that I've worked with that it's actually the child is more the adult, in the place of the adult, or parenting the adult, even sometimes.
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:43.200
Um that is that's a difficult thing to watch.
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:44.319
Yeah, that's hard.
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:51.039
Yes, it is.
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:51.440
Yeah.
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:58.640
You know, and you have to wonder about the impact on their lives, of course, in the longer term as well.
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:05.920
Yeah, you know, and it's but you know, emotional literacy is just so so important.
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:07.200
It really is.
00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:14.640
It's the it's the little diamond in the middle, and everything works around it, you know.
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:24.079
If you don't have that emotional literacy or emotional competence, you don't understand the world in the way in which the world needs to be understood.
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:33.759
So we need to give the child the tools to enable them to learn, yeah, you know, how is it they're feeling, why is it they're feeling that?
00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:36.720
And actually, it's okay to feel that way.
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:41.759
And that's the main message that it's okay to feel the way that you do.
00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:44.079
100% a range of emotions, you know.
00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:48.640
We often talk about the roller coaster of life and those ups and those downs.
00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:53.440
And you know, even as adults, we won't feel okay all of the time, you know.
00:33:53.920 --> 00:34:03.519
I wonder, Sharon, if there was maybe you know, just one thing that you could change about the emotional environment for children growing up today, what would it be?
00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:06.400
No pressure.
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:08.880
Yeah, one thing.
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:13.840
Um, yeah, I'm not sure there's just one thing, um, because it's a whole host.
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:22.719
I think it's the fact that people need to realize that they need to use a holistic approach when dealing with children.
00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:40.400
That would be my main thing, that it's not just the emotional literacy, it's everything, you know, you it's the whole body, it's the whole mental, emotional, physical, you know, it's it's everything, isn't it?
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:41.280
Yes.
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:54.960
So, you know, that the the emotional literacy, whatever, is just the little bit, it it's in the middle, and that's where they learn from, you know, and they learn a lot of that by parents modeling high status behaviours.
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:55.840
Oh, 100%.
00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:04.400
I was just about to say that was really weird timing, I was gonna say, yeah, one thing I've learned is literally they are constantly watching us, aren't they?
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:07.440
You know, even when they think we're not, yeah.
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:18.559
Yeah, you know, I mean they they not only feed off our feelings and our emotions, yeah, and that then can, you know, you've got a house that's totally chaotic, you know.
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:21.199
But the fact is it's the kids feeding off of you.
00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:39.760
It is, and we need is we need to take ownership of that as adults, you know, and the way in which we parent needs to be using these high status behaviors, because if we want a child to be respectful to people, we have to be respectful to the child.
00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:40.960
That's how they learn.
00:35:41.199 --> 00:35:43.280
We do, we do, absolutely.
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:58.400
I think, and there's so many different things that we can teach just through being real, you know, going back to your earlier point, you know, us as the adult admitting our mistakes, talking about our own feelings, obviously, in a you know, a safe way, you know, of course.
00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:01.280
I can hear people shouting at their podcast, saying, What do you mean?
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:03.119
You know, are you appropriate guys?
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:08.400
You know, obviously always in a child-friendly, age-appropriate way.
00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:15.840
Um, because you know that's that's important, and yeah, you know, you can you can always do that and explain, you know.
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:19.360
I'm sorry, darling, but mummy's really not having a good day today.
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:20.320
Well, exactly.
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:23.920
Yeah, you don't need to go into the ins and outs, or whatever.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:34.000
Yeah, you know, there are ways in which you can explain things that are age appropriate rather than going into the nitty-gritty details of why it feels that way.
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:34.880
Yes, yeah.
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:38.639
So that's often too far the other way, you know.
00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:55.920
But I think even like maybe us role modelling, you know, when we need a little bit of help, you know, asking for that, or are they seeing suppressing emotions, avoiding difficult conversations, dismissing our own feelings, and almost then thinking, well, that's what grown-ups do.
00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:58.320
Maybe that's how you have to be.
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:14.960
Yeah, and it's um it's sort of it's a funny one because I know that you know, as after growing up, you know, we all experience different things when we're growing up, and you know, as an adult, you have the choice.
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:21.199
Are you going to be the sort of person your parents are, or are you going to be totally opposite?
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:22.239
Oh, yeah.
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:27.360
That's that's a choice you have to make when you get to be an adult, and that's a massive choice.
00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:37.679
Um, you know, and some people choose to be exactly the same, and some people choose that actually, I didn't like that, so I'm going to change that, you know.
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:50.639
And I think that's a very important bit that you know, if they don't have the emotional understandings, when they get to that point in their life, they're gonna find that very difficult, you know.
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:56.719
So they need to have it at from a very early age to put that foundation in.
00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:00.000
Like throughout, yeah, yeah, that's true.
00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:03.280
Yeah, because it it happens throughout their life.
00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:19.360
So without that emotional literacy and understanding, they're gonna find that very difficult to not only just move through life, it's about conflict resolution, things like that.
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:30.559
There's there's a lot that comes from it because you know, if you've got somebody who's not emotionally literate, then how are they going to deal with conflict resolution?
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:32.559
Well, that's the problem, isn't it?
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:39.360
And I think the other thing for me is that often, you know, children won't be thinking, Oh, I'm struggling with this.
00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:43.039
They're more likely thinking, there's something wrong with them.
00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:44.400
Yeah.
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:49.760
So it's that, you know, kind of coming back to the kind of normalization, isn't it?
00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:57.840
Of actually, there's not something wrong with you, you know, this is a big situation, this is a difficult thing, even maybe adults might struggle with.
00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:02.639
Yeah, actually, you know, and it's and it's like, and everybody is unique.
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:06.960
You know, nobody fits in a box, it's not one size fits all.
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:17.360
You know, I've got three children, and they're all very, very different, they're all very different to each other because I was a technically a different parent to each of them.
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:18.800
Well of course, yeah.
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:27.679
So obviously, they're all you know, their personalities and everything are totally different to each other, you know.
00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:44.559
And the good thing about the the other books with with like Tufty and Um Pitt, they're all about um, you know, understanding your feelings, and it's okay to feel like that, you're not too much, you know.
00:39:44.800 --> 00:40:08.079
Yeah, and it's the messages that they actually give to the child, yeah, you know, and the fact that they're not clinical is is the main thing behind them, you know, because I wanted books that any child could read, you know, so you don't have to have suffered loss to read Astrin and find it an enjoyable book.
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:18.400
Yeah, right, but actually some of the things you'll pick up out of that book will stay with you, of course, but it's a book that you would come back to and read again.
00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:19.119
Yes.
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:23.840
Whereas the clinical books, why would you want to read them?
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:30.079
They're depressing, they're they're they don't, you know, they do the job, problematizing almost, aren't they?
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:33.280
Rather than thinking about yeah, human experience.
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:40.639
Yeah, yeah, you know, and like like like with with Pip, I mean, you couldn't get more ADHD and anything else than Pip.
00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:42.400
I mean, he's he's well, yeah.
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:50.480
Um but that's okay, it's about the fact of acceptance.
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:55.920
You know, there are people who will accept you for the way you are, you don't need to change.
00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:58.000
There isn't anything wrong with you.
00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:05.599
It's okay to be loud, it's okay to to to do whatever, you know, people are gonna love you anyway.
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:08.320
Oh, of course they are, of course they are.
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:11.440
And by the way, listeners, we will pop the links as well.
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:14.000
Uh, for anybody who's thinking, who's Astrid?
00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:19.039
And you know, we'll pop all the links, you know, when I um share the the episode, Sharon.
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:23.519
We'll make sure that people have those so that they can have a little look and kind of see what we mean.
00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:39.519
But I think what originally drew me to kind of doing this episode with you, Sharon, was you know, I I think I did see a post about one of your books, and kind of the first thing that came to my mind was, you know, what beautiful tools they would be for co-regulation with a child.
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:54.800
Because I think you know, we're we're very good, aren't we, at expecting children to self-regulate with a maybe a first, you know, their their first loss or their first experience of a friendship breakdown or whatever it be, but they're skills to learn, aren't they?
00:41:54.880 --> 00:42:00.800
And and I feel like the books can help with that, but in a sort of non-forced kind of way.
00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:03.199
Yeah, they're very non-clinical.
00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:18.480
And that's the thing I like about them is that you know, when I wrote them, I wrote that with that in mind that you know the young people are going to get something out of this book, but it's a book they'll read again and again.
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:32.960
They're not clinical in any which way, shape, or form, they're just very um explanatory, they explore feelings and you know, and they make the child feel held, which is what they need.
00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:34.880
They need to have that.
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:53.519
And the fact that obviously, I like I said, there are notes in the front of the books to tell people what the books are about, you know, possible questions they could ask a child and things like that, um, was also really important to me to put that in there because it's not just a kid's book.
00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:56.639
Well, it is, but it's it's a tool.
00:42:56.960 --> 00:42:58.159
Yes, you know.
00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:05.199
So if somebody doesn't know how to use a tool, then it's useless.
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:22.320
So that was why I felt it was very important to put like the notes for parents in the books so the parents understand what the books are about, you know, how this can possibly help the child, yeah, you know, and then yeah, sit down and read the book, you know.
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:44.320
Astron Astron's lovely because you have the memory pages at the back that the child can put photos in or whatever they want in the back to keep as part of a memory book, which is you know a very important thing for a child to be able to do, um, you know, and to assist them on that that grief journey.
00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:57.679
But as I said, you know, a kid doesn't have to suffer with loss to be able to read and enjoy absolutely or Pip or Tufty.
00:43:57.840 --> 00:43:59.679
You know, I mean Tufty is basically.
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:03.360
Like you know, bullying, she's being bullied by people because she's different.
00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:09.519
I mean, there might be squirrels that are bullying her because she's different, but it's still bullying, absolutely.
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:20.239
But she's been she's being picked on, she's being you know, isolated from others because of the way in which they're making her feel, you know, and that's not okay.
00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:26.960
Yeah, you know, really not through the book, you know, it explores those feelings, and it turns out actually.
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:29.920
Well, I'm not gonna I know I'm not gonna be given spoiler alert.
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:32.239
I'm not going to say don't don't do it.
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:34.320
Yeah, I'm not gonna spoil it.
00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:48.480
Um but you know it's yeah, it teaches a child that actually, you know, you are unique, you are you, and you can shine, you can make a difference.
00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:51.039
Yeah, you know, I love that so much.
00:44:51.679 --> 00:45:01.760
Um and as I said, I try to to bring that across in all of the books that I do because you know, exploring those feelings.
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:16.719
Yeah, I know the bunny and bee one that I'm nearly ready to release if if I can get my eye to sort out my photographs or fingers crossed, um, has a lot more about like uh you know, they find hidden feelings in the woods.
00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:18.800
Oh, I love that so much.
00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:38.400
They they they find random feelings, um and they they talk to them, they they're there for them, you know, they they sort of don't charge in, they sit quietly away, um or the feeling comes to them for the feeling to unravel.
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:52.320
Um, and it's yeah, I mean they're they're as I said, that all of my books would technically come under the emotional support type are the same.
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:54.880
Um really, really useful, yeah.
00:45:55.039 --> 00:46:20.960
And it's I mean, I've enjoyed writing them so much, I really have, because it's given me the opportunity to help children, which you know, as I said, started off with my grandson, yeah, and now evolved into the you know, hopefully, even if it helps one child, I know the job.
00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:22.400
Yeah, absolutely.
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:37.920
It's not about the book sales, it's not about hitting the best list, it's it's nothing at all to do with that, it's about providing resources that can help a child in need at whatever time in their life.
00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:45.679
So, you know, if they are being bullied and picked on for being different, you know, Tufti is an amazing book for that.
00:46:46.000 --> 00:47:41.440
Absolutely, yeah, and it's really like identifying the the resources that are available for parents to help their child through a time that is really challenging for them, you know, in a non-clinical way, so that the child doesn't feel um sort of isolated or uh you know unable to deal with these feelings, it sort of gives them the ability to be able to help navigate through these feelings, you know, which is so important, and you know, it really helps them to navigate through their life when they know that actually you are not too much, you know, you are enough, you are special, perfect the way you are, you know.
00:47:41.679 --> 00:47:45.199
Yeah, and that's so important for children to know that.
00:47:45.599 --> 00:48:00.559
Um and it's it's been a it's actually been a real privilege to read them because you know, I never thought that you know I'm I'm neurodiverse and dyslexic, you know.
00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:03.039
The last thing I thought I'd ever be doing is writing books.
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:04.639
Well, there we go.
00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:07.519
It says it all, it really, really says it all.
00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:22.079
Um, and I think we've covered so much incredible ground today, and it makes me sad to ask you my final question, which is you know, what do you hope that people will take away from our beautiful conversation today?
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:44.400
Basically, that there are proper resources that are available around these subjects, you know, it's not about just you know letting kids sit on a tablet and and do whatever, you know, books do make a difference, yeah, and certainly the right books make a difference.
00:48:44.559 --> 00:48:59.280
But if people don't know that these resources are available, yeah, you know, and that's the thing, you know, there are some other authors I know, like the Velveteen Rabbit, and there's you know, there's some very good other authors out there.
00:48:59.679 --> 00:49:01.360
Beautiful things, yes, yeah.
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:03.119
Um but we need more, don't we?
00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:04.320
We need more.
00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:10.000
I think mine fit in a bit of a niche all of their own, they're not the same, you know.
00:49:10.159 --> 00:49:14.320
So if you like the Velveteen Rabbit, there's no reason you wouldn't love these books.
00:49:14.559 --> 00:49:14.960
Exactly.
00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:18.639
Um I mean that's the only one I can think of off the top of my head, yeah.
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:24.639
But my books are very different, they sort of sit in the middle somewhere.
00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:34.079
Um, but I mean, you know, we all know that children's reading is really important that they they learn to read and whatever.
00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:38.559
And if they're learning that, why not give them something of substance?
00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:46.159
Yeah, something that can actually help them, you know, rather than just giving them a Janet and John book.
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:48.159
True, you know.
00:49:48.400 --> 00:50:00.559
I mean, if you're gonna read a book, read something that actually gives a message to that child that is helpful, you know, and and that that's my my thing on it.
00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:08.480
That you know, I want really, I mean, I'd love these to be available in schools, I'd love them to be available to not be magical, yeah.
00:50:09.199 --> 00:50:14.800
You know, that way everybody gets to to read them, yeah.
00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:41.679
And like I said, you know, you don't have to be suffering from anything in particular to enjoy the story, you're still getting the message, but it's just uh you know emotional literacy in kids is just so so important, it really is, you know, along with parents modelling that my sister's just behaviours, you know, and only our behaviors, yeah.
00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:48.719
I feel that there's and this is just my personal opinion because I know people probably be shouting, go, I own my stuff.
00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:51.280
Well, great, that's amazing.
00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:56.079
Um absolutely amazing that you own your own stuff and you're quite happy with your child.
00:50:56.239 --> 00:50:58.960
I got this wrong, of course, yeah.
00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:11.199
As many, many other people have, can I just say, you know, yeah, yeah, that's the thing, you know, we aren't living in a perfect world, we are not, you know, no human being will ever be perfect, but what we can be is authority.
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:20.639
So yeah, yeah, we can be honest, and we can, you know, life is messy, life's chaotic, you know, but I'm here for you.
00:51:20.960 --> 00:51:23.599
Absolutely, you know, Sharon.
00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:25.039
Honestly, thank you so much.
00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:38.159
Genuinely, I think it's gonna be so valuable, you know, not only for the audience, but you know, as we said, we will I'll be grabbing the links off of Sharon um as soon as we are logged out of here.
00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:46.320
Um, so that when we upload the uh the podcast, if you want to have a little look at some of uh Sharon's beautiful books and resources, please do.
00:51:46.400 --> 00:51:49.920
But Sharon, thank you so much for joining me today.
00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:54.559
Um, and I'm sure that we'll we'll have you on a future episode at some point as well.
00:51:55.519 --> 00:51:57.599
Yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure.
00:51:57.840 --> 00:51:58.960
So brilliant.
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:00.480
Thank you ever so much.
