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Hello, everybody.
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Welcome to another episode of the CPT Podcast.
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I'm Zach Wagner.
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I'm joined as always by CPT President Joel Lawrence.
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Hello, Joel.
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Hello, Zach.
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So this is a unique bumper that you and I are recording right now.
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Yes.
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And I suppose it's also, at least partially, an apology, in the sense that we, as we were kind of mapping out our podcast schedule for this spring, and I was looking things over, I realized there was a whole conversation that we had in the hopper from last year with our dear friend, a good friend of the CPT.
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He's been a faithful friend, we've had him out many times.
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Uh none other than Greg Allison, who teaches down at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and has served as a theological consultant for us about his book that came out early last year, Complementarity, which is on gender and sex and uh of as the title suggests, uh complementarity between men and women.
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And um somehow this conversation fell through the cracks in our kind of OneDrive cloud, something or another, and it never got posted.
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And so I don't know, I think the fact that um we this is I think the first time that we've done this and we're pastor theologians.
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I think that's actually pretty good.
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Yes, the first time we failed to like running running media and doing this kind of thing.
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No, we didn't go to school for this.
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Yeah, no, we did not.
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So I I actually, and I think Greg's probably the most gracious, one of the most gracious people I know.
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He'll be he'll be um he'll be very kind to us.
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Yes.
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So, Greg, if you're listening, very sorry, but here it is.
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We wanna uh it's a great resource, and what his book, I mean, you'll hear about it in the conversation, so you don't need to hear me blab about it.
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And this is gonna be like the bumper before the bumper that we recorded a year ago.
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So this is some sort of bumper inceptions thing that we have going on.
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Here's a conversation from 2025 about Greg Allison's complementarity.
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Hand it over to past Joel and Zach to introduce the actual conversation now.
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My point is there are no particular human capacities like rationality, emotionalism, coalition, things like that.
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And there are no particular human properties like goodness and protectiveness and love that belong in one or the other columns.
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Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the CPT Podcast.
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I'm Zach Wagner.
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I am joined by CPT President Joel Lawrence.
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Hello, Joel.
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Hello, Zach.
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We just uh finished a conversation with someone who's become a good friend of the CPT in in recent months, uh, Greg Allison, who serves as a professor of Christian theology at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary down uh in Louisville area.
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And we talked with Greg about what we found out is his 16th book.
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I think we've seen Greg's name doing various things over the years.
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And it came out this is book number 16 for him.
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He's uh has a great career thinking uh carefully and reflectively uh in service of the church on all number of issues.
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But the one today is uh entitled Complementarity, Dignity, Difference, and Independence, interdependence rather.
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And this is uh with BH Academic, and as you might have guessed, it's a book about theological anthropology, specifically men and women, and the complementary way uh Dr.
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Allison argues that God has created them to fit together in what it means to be human.
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So a lot of fun in this conversation with Greg about the book.
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What stood out to you, Joel?
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First of all, yeah, just to say how much I appreciate Greg's heart, uh his mind for sure, but his heart is his heart for the church, his heart for pastors, his heart for the gospel.
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And I think that really comes across in this book.
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And you know, one of the themes we talk about a little more toward the end of the conversation is really, I think what he's doing at the end of the day is calling us to think in a in a different vein about the gospel and how that then shapes the way we think about being men and women, and how that then shapes the way we think about roles.
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And and the problem with a lot of the conversation these days is that's all been reversed.
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And I think what Greg has said is if you start with roles, it becomes very difficult then to actually get to the core of the gospel.
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But if you start with the core, then that can shape the way that we think about gender, the way that we think about embodiment, the way that we think about roles.
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And so I just think that kind of clarion call that comes across of we are called to love one another and this mutual we owe each other love.
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And starting there, I think is just a very important move.
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Yeah.
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And we talk about this at length, and it's probably already evident in what you and I have said here.
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This is not a book or a conversation about kind of picking aside in the complementarianism, egalitarianism debates, such as they've shaken out in the church in recent decades.
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And because it's not that, and because it's going straight at the historical, theological, philosophical, biblical answers that have been offered on this question, I think Dr.
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Allison does such a good job adding light rather than heat.
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This is not an axe to grind uh screen or polemic or anything like that.
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It is a very, very helpful treatment, it seems to me.
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And I say as much in the conversation that I think folks navigating this, uh, no matter your church's practice on uh women's ordination or teaching about uh family roles or anything like that, I think this will be a really helpful resource for uh pastors and ministry leaders to have on their shelf and discuss with elder boards and staff and all of this.
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So certainly commend the book.
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I know I was uh helped and encouraged by it as well as Greg in the conversation.
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Uh anything else to add, Joel, before we let's roll it.
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Let's let them hear from Greg.
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Greg, it's great to have you back on the podcast.
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Thanks for joining us.
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Thanks so much.
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It's a pleasure being with you guys.
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And I do I do want to say, as we we jump in, we're gonna we're talking with Greg about his new book, Complimentarity, Dignity, Difference, and Independence.
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Before we do that, just to say we've been kind of majoring on Greg Allison over the last few months at the CPT.
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He's been happily so happily so a consultant on three of our fellowships this last year, which has just been fantastic and so great to get to know you more.
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And and your impact in our in our community has been profound.
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So thank you for that.
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Well, it's been an absolute pleasure and joy for me uh interacting with pastor theologians on the topic of the Holy Spirit, which is a great topic, great uh group to work with, and particularly how the Holy Spirit uh impacts uh us as leaders in the church and our churches.
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So thank you.
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I've been thrilled to be a part of CPT.
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Yeah, they've been it've been really, really great conversations, and uh yeah, just really grateful.
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So, all right, enough of that.
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Let's uh let's jump into the to the conversation here.
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Um before we talk about the book, uh do Greg, do orient folks who may not uh know your story just a little bit about you, about yourself, uh where where you've been, what you're doing these days.
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Yeah, I'm uh professor of Christian theology at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.
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Uh, this is my 23rd year of teaching, uh, over 30 years overall, uh teaching systematic theology.
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As we just mentioned, I I've taught pneumatology with a Center for Pastor Theologians, which has been a joy.
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I'm the secretary of the Evangelical Theological Society and a book review editor for that group.
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I'm a senior fellow with the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention.
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I focus on marriage and family issues, particularly uh human sexuality and gender.
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I'm an author of a few books.
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Um how many?
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How many?
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Do you know?
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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Okay, yeah, yeah.
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The latest complementarity is uh 16th.
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And uh my wife and I have been married uh over 49 years, and we've got uh three adult children and 12 grandchildren.
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That's great.
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And and I I I will also say your 16 books, they're not just like 80 pages each.
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These are you've written six pretty serious books.
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A lot of writing.
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That's great, good.
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Well, speaking of that, um, why don't you kind of orient us towards this book?
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Um, you know, as we we have these conversations, we we like to say every book has a backstory.
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Tell us a bit about what sparked the idea for this project and what what need in the evangelical church are you looking to meet with this book?
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Uh a number of years ago, I was at a gathering of the Theological Advisory Council of Harbor Network.
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It's a church planting network.
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Uh, and then we were discussing uh men and women uh as they engage in church planting.
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And I jotted down in the midst of that conversation an initial definition of the word complementarity, and then we brainstormed about the idea.
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And there was a representative, uh acquisitions editor there from BH Academic.
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She was present at this gathering.
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She initiated a conversation with me, and that eventually turned into me writing the book called Complementarity.
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So that's the backstory.
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I think it's important to say what we what we, what you do and don't mean by that title, because I think a lot of people who have been, you know, in various discussions at various levels, uh, various parts of the evangelical search uh church, such as it kind of uh parses itself out on questions of men and women's role, both in the home and in the family and the church.
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All this to say the word complementarity has certain connotations or associations.
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So I wanted to give you an opportunity.
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Can you distinguish kind of for listeners who maybe have heard of this book and are excited to hear you talk more about it or haven't heard of it?
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What are what are you doing here and how might that be different from the way questions about men, women, and church uh might be sh happening in adjacent terminology, I suppose.
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Uh so I I we you don't, you know, people misplace, oh well, I know what that book is about.
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Maybe challenge uh or or clarify what the book is and isn't about.
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So uh complementarity is not complementarianism and it's not egalitarianism.
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Complementarity, in my definition, is uh God's purpose for men and women, his male and female image bears, to uh fill out and mutually support one another in terms of their relationships in their families, uh in their vocations, their work, and in their churches for their individual and corporate flourishing.
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It's a foundational matter in terms of what are men and women and what are their relationships.
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Complementarianism and egalitarianism are frameworks of men and women's roles uh in the church, in the home, and some would say also in society.
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And complementarity, the book, is not at all about roles, it's not about functions and all like that, but it really focuses on who we are, our identity, our nature as image bearers, uh, and talk about that, and I don't address roles.
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Yeah.
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No, and I think that's part of what I think makes this project unique and helpful is that you're not um adjudicating kind of egalitarianism, you know, evangelical egalitarianism, such as it is, and evangelical complementarianism as it is.
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But certainly much of what you discuss here will have relevance for those discussions and as people are leading in their churches.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah, um I interact, those are my two major interlocutors, my two conversations.
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So throughout the book, right, I interact with complementarian and egalitarian interpretations of many, many, many, many passages and theological ideas, but I don't adjudicate between I've just said this on this passage about Deborah, about Holder, right?
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Uh complementarianism often views it this way, egalitarianism often views it this way.
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What are lessons that we can draw from these two prophetesses for complementarity?
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Yes.
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Yeah, and uh maybe two more things quickly on that.
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I remember having a conversation with an egalitarian theologian once, and this person said to me that they were disappointed that they felt like they couldn't use the word complementarity or complementary in their theological articulation of what they understood the difference between men and women to be and how that works together, because they're like, it's just a wonderful and beautiful word.
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And I refuse to kind of like give it up because I actually think there's something really helpful there.
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And I think that's what I receive, you know, and what you've done here is this word, no one owns this word in any sort of kind of narrow theological uh tradition or position on these issues.
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Um, it's it's really helpful along those lines.
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And uh maybe last thing I'll say, I know I've been, you know, uh chattering on for a little bit on the front end.
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I think this book will be really helpful for elder boards and church staff and discussions like this in particular.
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We recently at Calvary had a kind of process with uh, you know, key folks in the church and the elder board discussions on church leadership, uh, the role of women in ministry, all these sorts of things.
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And it's kind of like, man, I wish this book was around a couple of years ago when we were having those conversations.
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And I know many of our listeners, many in our fellows' network will be having discussions around this sort of thing in church.
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And I think this is really helpful.
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I just want to commend this book to people who are having those kind of those conversations because it is a more quote unquote neutral playing ground for having these discussions.
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And I think you've done, you've accomplished something really valuable there.
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Thanks.
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Those are yeah, those are really kind words.
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Uh, thank you so much.
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Yeah, uh, when I talk about complementarity, it doesn't address roles and functions and offices.
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I'm not saying by that that these are unimportant.
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And in our churches, right, we have to have these conversations.
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They are very important.
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My point is they're secondary, they're not first two issues, though, first here, though they often get that.
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And uh, but I'm not saying these discussions are unimportant, they just have to be put on a foundation of who we are as men and women, uh, redeemed image bearers in Jesus Christ, to engage with one another in love and honor and reciprocity and mutuality.
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That's who we are in terms of our identity.
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And uh, so I'm not offering uh a third way between complementarianism and egalitarianism.
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I'm not trying to find a mediating ground.
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I'm working in something more foundational from which flow all these wonderful discussions about leadership and roles and functions and things like that.
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That's that's really helpful.
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I think that's a great clarification to help people understand what you're doing in the book.
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And I think it's an important theme that I appreciated throughout on this principle that you you talk about ontology precedes functions and roles.
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And as you just said, it doesn't it doesn't mean we don't talk about functions and roles, but if you start there, it it can often really come make the conversation a much diff different conversation than perhaps we should be having.
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So why is it this important?
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Why is this principle important for grounding a theological vision of men and women as the image bearers of God?
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This idea that ontology precedes functions and roles, why is that important for theological work in general?
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I think it's important for as an axiom for theology, philosophy, many other disciplines.
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We often overlook it.
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But something that uh my pastor uh constantly says, and I'm picking up on this, identity precedes function.
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That's one of my pastor's main themes.
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So it's a starting point.
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And and let's just think about the biblical storyline creation, fall, redemption, consummation.
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We start in chapter one with the creation of human beings in God's image.
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That becomes our identity.
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That is our identity.
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The identity is that of image bearers, not sinners.
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That's chapter two, right?
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That's an anomaly, that's that's a tragedy that takes place.
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But human identity is not that of sinner, but of divine image bearer.
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And then as we understand who we are as redeemed image bearers, then we can articulate the role of men and women in the church and the home from a complementarian perspective.
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Uh, but we have to start with the nature of men and women and the relationships in those spheres.
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Then uh we talk about the functions of men and women that flow from our identity.
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Another example of this would be, uh, like in ecclesiology, most books over the course of the last 50 or 60 years have been about how to do church, right?
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What are the ministries of the church?
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My point is before we talk about the ministries of the church, we need to understand the biblical and theological vision of the nature of the church as the new covenant people of God, the body of Christ, temple of the Holy Spirit, family of brothers and sisters in Christ.
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We need to understand the nature of the church.
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Then we can think through contextually what are the ministries of the church.
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And in another one of my books called Sojourners and Strangers, I try to emphasize ontology uh precedes function in ecclesiology, it does theological anthropology in many, many other areas.
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No, that's super helpful.
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Yeah, and it is interesting to think about how that axiom, like I like that that that language might apply in other kind of fields of theological inquiry as well.
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Uh shifting gears a little bit, uh one of your key dialogue partners, interlocutors, I think really the interlock, like the main dialogue partner, is Sister Prudence Allen's three-volume work, The Concept of a Woman, which is not a work that I was familiar with before before reading this.
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I think that'll be the case for many listeners as well.
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Why did you find her work so helpful in the first instance?
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And what about it do you think might lead to some consternation among uh evangelical kind of scholars or even pastors or readers?
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And um, then you suggest like what might that consternation reveal in itself uh about our or our disposition towards uh scholarly work on these questions.
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Yeah, thanks for letting me talk about uh Sister Prudence Allen.
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Um the whole first part of my book, the historical section, so about a hundred pages, relies heavily on the work of this uh Roman Catholic nun.
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She's part of the Religious Sisters of Mercy.
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And her lifelong project, 45 years, resulted in these three massive volumes, the concept of woman.
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And uh she's key for me because her historical work, beginning 2,500 years ago, working up to 2015, it's meticulously and exhaustively researched, written, and documented.
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Now, some readers may be concerned that it was written by a Roman Catholic nun and even more so, maybe it's written by a woman.
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My response, her three-volume work and her historical research, yeah, really it's the way research should be done.
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And I was able to track down almost all of her primary sources, the ones I needed to check on, to make sure that the references throughout her book really did communicate what those authors like Aristotle or Augustine were trying to communicate.
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As she built this extensive development of the concept over woman uh of woman over the course of 2,500 years, I was able to go back to those original sources and say, she's got it right.
00:23:01.710 --> 00:23:06.190
She's describing what these views are and the development, how it um um impacted.
00:23:08.110 --> 00:23:28.509
So readers who have concerns about that, let me just say, should check that those concerns derive properly from her reading and treatment of historical sources and not from some biases or maybe prejudices about Roman Catholic nuns and female historians.
00:23:28.830 --> 00:23:31.630
Now, this doesn't mean that Sister Prudence Allen doesn't err.
00:23:31.710 --> 00:23:33.950
Like all of us, she fails at points.
00:23:34.110 --> 00:23:41.710
Like her treatment of the concept of woman in the Reformation is uncharacteristically feeble.
00:23:42.029 --> 00:23:44.910
Maybe as we would expect, because she's Roman Catholic.
00:23:45.390 --> 00:23:51.230
So in that area of the Reformation, right, I had to supplement extensively what I wrote in that section.
00:23:51.390 --> 00:24:05.550
So she's not infallible, she's got her weaknesses, but her overall work is exhaustively and meticulously researched and documented, so well written, I think most readers, maybe all readers, will find it very, very convincing.
00:24:05.710 --> 00:24:08.430
And I hope that they'll uh check her out in her work.
00:24:09.789 --> 00:24:12.670
Just a quick curiosity follow-up question.
00:24:12.830 --> 00:24:18.670
Were you aware of this before you went to serious work on this project?
00:24:18.830 --> 00:24:27.230
Did it emerge during your research as something that was going to be such an important part of your uh your interaction?
00:24:27.550 --> 00:24:35.630
I don't remember where I came across her books, but it was uh a number of years before I embarked on this project.
00:24:35.789 --> 00:24:45.789
And I would say stimulated me, as particularly as I read her first volume, uh, starting with uh Aristotle, Plato, and uh, and then following up.
00:24:46.190 --> 00:24:47.870
It was just such an eye-opener.
00:24:48.190 --> 00:24:56.190
Uh, the horrific, demeaning view uh throughout the last 2,500 years of women.
00:24:56.509 --> 00:25:05.470
Uh they're defective men, they don't possess the same rationality or the authority of rationality like men do.
00:25:05.630 --> 00:25:10.990
They're not they they can't be wise, they don't share the same virtues as men do.
00:25:11.150 --> 00:25:14.350
And it's a very demeaning view of women.
00:25:14.590 --> 00:25:24.590
And that does right, that prompts me in complementarity to unfold in the first hundred or so pages in the book, uh, this view of uh men and women and how would you view it?
00:25:25.070 --> 00:25:38.750
Going back to this ontology question, ontology precedes functions and roles, one of the kind of cultural moments that we're in is a lot of questions of what does it mean to be a man?
00:25:38.990 --> 00:25:41.230
What does it mean to be a woman?
00:25:41.789 --> 00:25:43.390
Is there such a thing as a man?
00:25:43.630 --> 00:25:45.789
Is there such a thing as a woman?
00:25:46.110 --> 00:26:00.750
You very clearly articulate in here a deep commitment to the image of God as male and female in in gendered ways that is that are inescapable.
00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:06.830
Uh, and so there's something to the very nature of us around our genderedness.
00:26:07.710 --> 00:26:23.789
But I wonder if if you can help help us think through a little bit more in your work why forming a biblical vision of what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman is is so vital for the church today.
00:26:23.870 --> 00:26:34.750
And maybe I can add to that, what resources do you think are available to us that maybe we're not tapped into as much as we could be on these conversations?
00:26:35.310 --> 00:26:49.710
Yeah, I think forming a biblical vision is necessary for any topic, any subject, any doctrine, any practice that we are going to engage with in our lives and in the church.
00:26:49.950 --> 00:27:07.789
I remember being part of uh Sojourn Church, where before we did anything in terms of ministry philosophy or practice, our lead pastor always insisted that we write a 25-page white paper that would provide the biblical and theological foundation for whatever we wanted to do in terms of ministry.
00:27:07.950 --> 00:27:12.269
So I think uh forming a biblical vision of anything is very important.
00:27:12.430 --> 00:27:41.310
But in terms of forming a vision for men and women, I think it's important today because the whole topic of men and women in the church is largely devolved into heated debates about the sexes, uh, and then canceling those who take a different position than one does, charging with heresy if a family unit or a church applies biblical instructions about roles in a way different from somebody else, right?
00:27:41.550 --> 00:27:44.590
And and that's just that's to me is tragic.
00:27:44.990 --> 00:27:50.110
And so we focus on identity matters, men and women.
00:27:50.269 --> 00:28:05.230
And what we see in the church today is uh a lot of people defining men in terms of their roles as husbands and fathers, and defining women in terms of their roles as wives and mothers.
00:28:05.470 --> 00:28:15.390
And then if someone, a man or a woman, turns 28, or God forbid, it seems like they will never marry, they struggle with a sense of incompleteness.
00:28:15.789 --> 00:28:16.269
Correct.
00:28:16.509 --> 00:28:25.710
Indeed, they're regarded by others, often people in the church, as broken, and their friends desperately seek to fix them.
00:28:25.950 --> 00:28:30.670
That is, fix them up with a potential marriage partner so they get fixed.
00:28:30.910 --> 00:28:34.830
And so a crisis of identity ensues from this.
00:28:35.310 --> 00:29:02.509
And complementarity with its focus on what it means to be a man and a woman, that is, ident identity matters, provides, I think, people who struggle with these issues, it provides them with freedom, a sense of fulfillment, a sense of completeness, a calling to be what God created them to be, as fully formed disciples of Jesus Christ, apart from or prior to their roles.
00:29:02.830 --> 00:29:07.070
We are complete, full image-bearers of God.
00:29:07.470 --> 00:29:12.190
Uh, before we ever become husbands, fathers, wives, or mothers.
00:29:12.350 --> 00:29:17.390
Those are wonderful additional callings and roles, but they're not our identity.
00:29:17.870 --> 00:29:36.830
And one of the things I so appreciated is in the heart that comes through in the book, the tone that comes through in the book of the mutual interdependence of love that is it it is all over the all over the scriptures.
00:29:37.150 --> 00:29:45.789
Um and I think what complementarity helps us to do is what if we started from that place?
00:29:46.350 --> 00:29:46.670
Yep.
00:29:46.830 --> 00:29:53.310
Um, what if we started from this core conviction that we are created, we owe each other love?
00:29:53.470 --> 00:30:01.310
We are created in this mutual love, and then from there build out towards roles.
00:30:01.789 --> 00:30:07.310
That's a very different framing of the conversation than what we're that we're what we're caught up in today.
00:30:07.470 --> 00:30:23.390
So, Greg, could I ask you just to follow up a little bit more on that, of of that um that mutual in interdependence and the the biblical call to love one another, which is super easy to say.
00:30:23.550 --> 00:30:34.910
Yes, but I think what you've done here is called us to some just core gospel things that then we can apply in the way that we have these conversations.
00:30:35.070 --> 00:30:37.230
So could I ask you just to explore that a little bit more?
00:30:37.630 --> 00:30:51.310
Yeah, uh another very influential book in my preparation for this, for my book, uh, is uh Alice Matthew's book on Paul's greetings in Romans 16.
00:30:52.110 --> 00:31:04.190
And uh as she sets the context for Romans 16, she works through Romans 12 through 15, and she focuses her discussion on what she calls Pauline love mutualism.
00:31:04.350 --> 00:31:07.630
Yeah, as set forth in Romans 12 through 15.
00:31:07.789 --> 00:31:37.470
And just briefly, the apostle directs the church, both men and women, let love be genuine, love one another with brotherly and sisterly affection, outdo one another in showing honor to one another, contribute to the needs of the saints, show hospitality, live in harmony with one another, owe no one anything except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
00:31:37.870 --> 00:31:41.070
So this is the positive vision of complementarity.
00:31:41.230 --> 00:31:44.430
It's as you said, it's a gospel issue, a call to love.
00:31:44.509 --> 00:31:58.190
It's Francis Schaefer's old little book called The Mark of a Christian is not ministry and fame, it's it's love, and it's a call back to that reality that I think is too easily overlooked.
00:31:58.269 --> 00:32:02.670
But I I I believe churches will grasp this and want to practice it.
00:32:02.990 --> 00:32:07.789
Yeah, I I will just echo my appreciation for this as well.
00:32:08.190 --> 00:32:17.550
And I think it is like it is demonstrated that we've kind of taken our eye off the ball or lost sight of things.
00:32:18.190 --> 00:32:23.630
I mean, you were just saying the mark of Christians is this kind of love mutuality, and Christians are known by their love.
00:32:23.710 --> 00:32:28.670
There's lots of New Testament passages that we could cite here, you know, upper room discourse, all this.
00:32:28.990 --> 00:32:39.310
But I think in the heat that you were talking about before on gender roles, and it really often is about roles in Christian debate.
00:32:39.789 --> 00:32:54.750
I think people, and you know, politics plays into this as well, but it's as if we think that Christians, like the mark of Christian faithfulness is having a certain view about gender roles.
00:32:54.910 --> 00:32:55.230
Yep.
00:32:55.390 --> 00:33:12.029
Um, where like, you know, they will know we are Christians because we have benevolent patriarchal heads of the household and you know, submissive women uh uh mothering children at home, as if like that's what made us distinct.
00:33:12.269 --> 00:33:19.150
And again, it's not that it is not to suggest that Christian theology has nothing to do with this or the Bible has nothing to say about those things.
00:33:19.470 --> 00:33:27.150
But you know, there were times in my life where I felt like this is the kind of unique thing that makes the Christian vision of the world what it is.
00:33:27.310 --> 00:33:29.950
And you read the New Testament, no, it is not.
00:33:30.350 --> 00:33:35.230
This love that we have for one another is always the distinguishing factor.
00:33:35.390 --> 00:33:41.310
So I love the way that you've driven us back to look at that core thing as the core thing.
00:33:41.470 --> 00:33:44.110
Um let me pick up on that too, because I'm not gonna be able to do that.
00:33:44.910 --> 00:33:46.110
I got another question for you, but go.
00:33:46.430 --> 00:33:49.310
You're writing a book about uh uh virtues, right?
00:33:49.470 --> 00:33:52.190
Particularly men addressing that.
00:33:52.430 --> 00:34:09.469
And and uh your point is that the Christian virtues, let's think of the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, and all like that, uh, these are virtues that are enjoined upon both men and women, both male and female redeemed image bearers.
00:34:09.710 --> 00:34:11.869
And uh we're all called to this.
00:34:12.110 --> 00:34:21.309
Uh and and so to embrace again the complementarity of men and women in terms of the their virtues, I think this is the core issue.
00:34:21.550 --> 00:34:28.989
Before, and again, not discounting discussions about gender and roles, but that's very important, but it's it's got to be secondary.
00:34:29.150 --> 00:34:30.509
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:30.829 --> 00:34:39.309
So back to these discussions, then definitions are so important, and it it's a key part of your project.
00:34:39.550 --> 00:34:46.269
And I think you you repeatedly define your terms and then you return to your definitions of them.
00:34:46.429 --> 00:34:58.029
And I think this is often where a lot of these discussions can go sideways on on gender and identity and theological anthropology is well, we're we're working with different definitions, we're not defining our terms.
00:34:58.269 --> 00:35:09.070
What have you observed about that in these intramural kind of inter-evangelical debates about men and women uh in the church?
00:35:09.389 --> 00:35:17.470
Yeah, so the tendency is to define men and women in terms of their roles and their distinctives, right?
00:35:17.630 --> 00:35:42.750
So you can imagine if we do a chart and uh we have in this column male and this column female, we have this tendency to fill the male column with like rationality and protectiveness, the female column with uh emotionalism and nurturing and those kinds of things.
00:35:42.829 --> 00:35:45.630
And my which is very Aristotelian, it's a good idea.
00:35:45.789 --> 00:35:48.430
Which you come back to uh repeatedly, yes.
00:35:48.670 --> 00:35:58.430
Yep, and my point is there are no particular human capacities like rationality, emotionalism, volition, things like that.
00:35:58.590 --> 00:36:06.829
And there are no particular human properties like goodness and protectiveness and love that belong in one or the other columns, right?
00:36:06.909 --> 00:36:08.269
They're all common.
00:36:08.510 --> 00:36:17.950
Yet, because God has created us as sex image bearers, those capacities and those properties will always be expressed in sexed ways.
00:36:18.110 --> 00:36:23.309
That is, men will express love and protectiveness in male ways, ditto for women.
00:36:23.389 --> 00:36:28.030
They will express those same virtues and qualities and properties in female ways.
00:36:28.190 --> 00:36:37.550
So this is the idea of complementarity, uh, dignity, where equal as image bears, remarkably wonderful differences between men and women.
00:36:37.710 --> 00:36:49.710
But when we come together and mutually support one another and love and honor one another, there is a synergy that is created as we are interdependent as God wills us to be.
00:36:49.789 --> 00:36:52.030
And that's the beauty of complementarity.
00:36:52.510 --> 00:37:19.950
So let me ask now, Greg, in terms of kind of cashing this out a little bit, and for pastors um in ministry, how would you encourage pastor theologians as they labor, uh teach, lead in local churches with all the cultural issues that are swirling and the debates that are going on around male and female and gender?
00:37:20.110 --> 00:37:27.389
How would you encourage them to lead their churches when it comes to this topic of complementarity?
00:37:27.789 --> 00:37:29.150
This is such a good question.
00:37:29.309 --> 00:37:31.309
I got a thousand things I want to say.
00:37:31.389 --> 00:37:33.950
So bring it up.
00:37:34.909 --> 00:37:53.070
So I think realize first, realize and emphasize that almost all scripture addresses its readers with instructions, directives, warnings, exhortations, admonitions that are for everyone, women and men alike.
00:37:54.030 --> 00:38:10.750
And secondly, trust and preach that all scripture is inspired by God, profitable for teaching, rebuke, correction, and training in righteousness for all Christians, meaning Ruth and Esther are not just for women, but for women and men.
00:38:11.150 --> 00:38:18.590
And Jonah and the pastoral epistles, first and second Timothy and Titus, are not just for men, but for men and women alike.
00:38:19.470 --> 00:38:46.829
And third, if I can address leaders of complementarian churches, and I'm picking this up from Andrew Wilson in London, when you survey the entirety of your congregation, say when you're preaching on Sunday morning, don't just see the 40% of your members, men, and then envision them as future church leaders, assuming they meet the biblical qualifications.
00:38:47.470 --> 00:38:59.389
Rather see 100% of your members, men and women, envision them as future church leaders according to your complementarian structure.
00:38:59.630 --> 00:39:13.869
The men may become elders and deacons, again, assuming they meet the biblical qualifications for those offices, and the women in a complementarian structure, though they will not become elders, may become deacons, deacon women deacons, deaconesses.
00:39:14.190 --> 00:39:23.630
Then, as you envision all this, get both men and women in leadership training processes that will prepare them for church leadership.
00:39:23.950 --> 00:39:29.230
So three hopefully pretty practical ways of landing the plane here.
00:39:29.710 --> 00:39:38.750
Yeah, this is maybe just building off the previous question a little bit, but maybe final question and then and then we'll we'll wrap up.
00:39:39.070 --> 00:39:46.430
Specifically, so we talked about pastors, but now like I want to talk about the cultural, the kind of church component a little bit.
00:39:46.590 --> 00:40:02.909
Like, how can churches as a community promote this vision of complementarity in this cultural moment in not just the West, but uniquely in America has its own its own textures and nuance.
00:40:04.990 --> 00:40:26.990
I mean, the kind of Judith Butler thesis of the distinction between gender and sex really has been influential in recent decades and has kind of had a field day in the culture, and um whatever kind of backlash against that, and this is tied into kind of the rise of the manosphere and even the Trump phenomenon, all sorts of things.
00:40:27.070 --> 00:40:29.950
It's it's a we've referenced this a few times in the discussion.
00:40:30.030 --> 00:40:33.389
It's a very hot moment on these questions in the culture.
00:40:33.710 --> 00:40:49.150
So as churches kind of are trying to commend this biblical vision that you're talking about, what are some of the obstacles in front of them that are communities, but as well as the opportunities that prevent present themselves uh in this moment?
00:40:49.869 --> 00:41:01.150
Uh again, a key obstacle that we've mentioned is the elevation of roles and functions and offices to uh first-tier issues.
00:41:01.950 --> 00:41:04.110
I think that's a dangerous move.
00:41:04.750 --> 00:41:22.670
Uh I think uh another difficulty is there's a move now within maybe strict complementarianism and patriarchicalism to have those frameworks that really deal with roles and functions become metaphysical foundational matters.
00:41:22.829 --> 00:41:22.990
Yeah.
00:41:23.389 --> 00:41:26.590
And uh those those kind of theological danger.
00:41:26.829 --> 00:41:27.470
Yeah, exactly.
00:41:27.550 --> 00:41:31.070
They're those frameworks will not support what they're being asked to do.
00:41:31.150 --> 00:41:41.550
They're they're about roles and and differences and functions, and all that's important, but they're not they're not going to get down to the core of who we are as image bears or identity matters and things like that.
00:41:41.869 --> 00:41:45.869
Or theology proper for that matter, which is I mean, it touches everything, yeah.
00:41:46.110 --> 00:41:47.869
But that's what's so striking to me about that.
00:41:47.950 --> 00:41:58.590
Sorry to interject, is that the kind of reversal of this where you go from a gender role and somehow get up to theology proper, just theological methodology, it's straight backwards.
00:41:58.829 --> 00:41:59.309
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:59.470 --> 00:42:06.750
So I think another thing would be so so there's a corrective move today in a lot of churches.
00:42:06.909 --> 00:42:14.590
The corrective move, we need to really over-emphasize men and men's ministries.
00:42:14.750 --> 00:42:20.349
You know, we want to focus on building strong men and flourishing women's ministries.
00:42:20.590 --> 00:42:30.430
And if that means we underemphasize women and women's ministries, so be it, because they've been given the advantage over the course of the last 50, 60 years or whatever.
00:42:30.829 --> 00:42:33.630
And my my point is this is not a zero-sum game.
00:42:33.789 --> 00:42:37.150
Yeah, this isn't you've got to build one or the other, right?
00:42:37.309 --> 00:42:40.510
Build strong men, build strong women.
00:42:40.829 --> 00:42:45.950
Build strong women's ministry, build strong men's ministries, right?
00:42:46.190 --> 00:42:48.269
Uh you can do that.
00:42:48.670 --> 00:42:51.950
Uh and so those are some of my concerns.
00:42:52.110 --> 00:42:54.430
But there's there's a lot of potential in this.
00:42:54.510 --> 00:43:02.750
As if we if we emphasize this complementarity, emphasize who we are as image bearers in relationships with one another.
00:43:02.909 --> 00:43:09.309
I I think it is like Joel mentioned, it's a call back to the gospel and it's focus on love.
00:43:09.550 --> 00:43:16.750
Again, not demeaning these other areas of functions and and roles, but let's say putting them in their proper place.
00:43:17.070 --> 00:43:21.950
Greg, yeah, thanks so much um for the book.
00:43:22.110 --> 00:43:41.470
I I know it's it's a lot of work to write something like this, and it's thoroughly research, and you cover history and biblical theology and scriptures and uh application, and just thank you for your for your service to the church in in writing the book.
00:43:41.630 --> 00:43:43.710
So, so very appreciate that.
00:43:44.190 --> 00:43:44.909
Well, thank you.
00:43:45.070 --> 00:43:54.909
Those are again very kind uh words, and thank you for giving me the opportunity through your podcast to set out what I'm trying to do in complementarity.
00:43:55.070 --> 00:43:56.349
I really appreciate it.
00:43:56.909 --> 00:43:57.470
Absolutely.
00:43:57.630 --> 00:44:05.630
And um we look forward to to uh continued podcasts as you continue to churn out books, Lord willing.
00:44:07.070 --> 00:44:08.190
That's right, that's right.
00:44:08.349 --> 00:44:12.670
And um growing, continue to grow the relationship with with you and the CPT.
00:44:12.750 --> 00:44:13.710
So thanks, brother.
00:44:13.789 --> 00:44:14.349
We appreciate you.
00:44:14.670 --> 00:44:15.630
Thanks, Joe and Zach.
00:44:15.869 --> 00:44:16.909
Thank you so much.
00:44:18.510 --> 00:44:24.510
Thanks for listening to today's episode of the CPT Podcast, a theology podcast for the church.
00:44:24.750 --> 00:44:28.829
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00:44:29.070 --> 00:44:34.670
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00:44:34.909 --> 00:44:38.590
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00:44:38.670 --> 00:44:43.309
The Panister Theologians Podcast is a production of the Center for Panzer Theologians.
00:44:43.550 --> 00:44:48.430
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00:44:48.909 --> 00:44:56.990
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00:44:57.230 --> 00:45:03.470
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00:45:04.110 --> 00:45:06.349
Hosting duties are shared by Joel Lawrence.
00:45:06.750 --> 00:45:09.470
Ray Paul and me, Zach Wagner.
00:45:09.630 --> 00:45:10.750
Thanks for listening.
00:01:06.750 --> 00:01:07.310
Hello, everybody.
00:01:07.390 --> 00:01:09.870
Welcome to another episode of the CPT Podcast.
00:01:09.950 --> 00:01:11.150
I'm Zach Wagner.
00:01:11.310 --> 00:01:14.670
I'm joined as always by CPT President Joel Lawrence.
00:01:14.750 --> 00:01:15.310
Hello, Joel.
00:01:15.629 --> 00:01:16.349
Hello, Zach.
00:01:16.670 --> 00:01:20.030
So this is a unique bumper that you and I are recording right now.
00:01:20.269 --> 00:01:20.430
Yes.
00:01:21.070 --> 00:01:42.510
And I suppose it's also, at least partially, an apology, in the sense that we, as we were kind of mapping out our podcast schedule for this spring, and I was looking things over, I realized there was a whole conversation that we had in the hopper from last year with our dear friend, a good friend of the CPT.
00:01:42.590 --> 00:01:45.230
He's been a faithful friend, we've had him out many times.
00:01:45.390 --> 00:02:06.030
Uh none other than Greg Allison, who teaches down at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and has served as a theological consultant for us about his book that came out early last year, Complementarity, which is on gender and sex and uh of as the title suggests, uh complementarity between men and women.
00:02:06.430 --> 00:02:16.750
And um somehow this conversation fell through the cracks in our kind of OneDrive cloud, something or another, and it never got posted.
00:02:16.909 --> 00:02:26.110
And so I don't know, I think the fact that um we this is I think the first time that we've done this and we're pastor theologians.
00:02:26.189 --> 00:02:27.870
I think that's actually pretty good.
00:02:28.110 --> 00:02:34.350
Yes, the first time we failed to like running running media and doing this kind of thing.
00:02:34.750 --> 00:02:36.030
No, we didn't go to school for this.
00:02:36.269 --> 00:02:37.310
Yeah, no, we did not.
00:02:37.389 --> 00:02:42.030
So I I actually, and I think Greg's probably the most gracious, one of the most gracious people I know.
00:02:42.590 --> 00:02:46.590
He'll be he'll be um he'll be very kind to us.
00:02:46.990 --> 00:02:47.389
Yes.
00:02:48.990 --> 00:02:51.469
So, Greg, if you're listening, very sorry, but here it is.
00:02:51.550 --> 00:02:58.909
We wanna uh it's a great resource, and what his book, I mean, you'll hear about it in the conversation, so you don't need to hear me blab about it.
00:02:59.069 --> 00:03:03.069
And this is gonna be like the bumper before the bumper that we recorded a year ago.
00:03:03.150 --> 00:03:06.269
So this is some sort of bumper inceptions thing that we have going on.
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Here's a conversation from 2025 about Greg Allison's complementarity.
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Hand it over to past Joel and Zach to introduce the actual conversation now.
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My point is there are no particular human capacities like rationality, emotionalism, coalition, things like that.
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And there are no particular human properties like goodness and protectiveness and love that belong in one or the other columns.
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Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the CPT Podcast.
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I'm Zach Wagner.
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I am joined by CPT President Joel Lawrence.
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Hello, Joel.
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Hello, Zach.
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We just uh finished a conversation with someone who's become a good friend of the CPT in in recent months, uh, Greg Allison, who serves as a professor of Christian theology at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary down uh in Louisville area.
00:04:05.230 --> 00:04:09.470
And we talked with Greg about what we found out is his 16th book.
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I think we've seen Greg's name doing various things over the years.
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And it came out this is book number 16 for him.
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He's uh has a great career thinking uh carefully and reflectively uh in service of the church on all number of issues.
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But the one today is uh entitled Complementarity, Dignity, Difference, and Independence, interdependence rather.
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And this is uh with BH Academic, and as you might have guessed, it's a book about theological anthropology, specifically men and women, and the complementary way uh Dr.
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Allison argues that God has created them to fit together in what it means to be human.
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So a lot of fun in this conversation with Greg about the book.
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What stood out to you, Joel?
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First of all, yeah, just to say how much I appreciate Greg's heart, uh his mind for sure, but his heart is his heart for the church, his heart for pastors, his heart for the gospel.
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And I think that really comes across in this book.
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And you know, one of the themes we talk about a little more toward the end of the conversation is really, I think what he's doing at the end of the day is calling us to think in a in a different vein about the gospel and how that then shapes the way we think about being men and women, and how that then shapes the way we think about roles.
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And and the problem with a lot of the conversation these days is that's all been reversed.
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And I think what Greg has said is if you start with roles, it becomes very difficult then to actually get to the core of the gospel.
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But if you start with the core, then that can shape the way that we think about gender, the way that we think about embodiment, the way that we think about roles.
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And so I just think that kind of clarion call that comes across of we are called to love one another and this mutual we owe each other love.
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And starting there, I think is just a very important move.
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Yeah.
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And we talk about this at length, and it's probably already evident in what you and I have said here.
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This is not a book or a conversation about kind of picking aside in the complementarianism, egalitarianism debates, such as they've shaken out in the church in recent decades.
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And because it's not that, and because it's going straight at the historical, theological, philosophical, biblical answers that have been offered on this question, I think Dr.
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Allison does such a good job adding light rather than heat.
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This is not an axe to grind uh screen or polemic or anything like that.
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It is a very, very helpful treatment, it seems to me.
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And I say as much in the conversation that I think folks navigating this, uh, no matter your church's practice on uh women's ordination or teaching about uh family roles or anything like that, I think this will be a really helpful resource for uh pastors and ministry leaders to have on their shelf and discuss with elder boards and staff and all of this.
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So certainly commend the book.
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I know I was uh helped and encouraged by it as well as Greg in the conversation.
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Uh anything else to add, Joel, before we let's roll it.
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Let's let them hear from Greg.
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Greg, it's great to have you back on the podcast.
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Thanks for joining us.
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Thanks so much.
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It's a pleasure being with you guys.
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And I do I do want to say, as we we jump in, we're gonna we're talking with Greg about his new book, Complimentarity, Dignity, Difference, and Independence.
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Before we do that, just to say we've been kind of majoring on Greg Allison over the last few months at the CPT.
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He's been happily so happily so a consultant on three of our fellowships this last year, which has just been fantastic and so great to get to know you more.
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And and your impact in our in our community has been profound.
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So thank you for that.
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Well, it's been an absolute pleasure and joy for me uh interacting with pastor theologians on the topic of the Holy Spirit, which is a great topic, great uh group to work with, and particularly how the Holy Spirit uh impacts uh us as leaders in the church and our churches.
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So thank you.
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I've been thrilled to be a part of CPT.
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Yeah, they've been it've been really, really great conversations, and uh yeah, just really grateful.
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So, all right, enough of that.
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Let's uh let's jump into the to the conversation here.
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Um before we talk about the book, uh do Greg, do orient folks who may not uh know your story just a little bit about you, about yourself, uh where where you've been, what you're doing these days.
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Yeah, I'm uh professor of Christian theology at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.
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Uh, this is my 23rd year of teaching, uh, over 30 years overall, uh teaching systematic theology.
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As we just mentioned, I I've taught pneumatology with a Center for Pastor Theologians, which has been a joy.
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I'm the secretary of the Evangelical Theological Society and a book review editor for that group.
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I'm a senior fellow with the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention.
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I focus on marriage and family issues, particularly uh human sexuality and gender.
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I'm an author of a few books.
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Um how many?
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How many?
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Do you know?
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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Okay, yeah, yeah.
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The latest complementarity is uh 16th.
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And uh my wife and I have been married uh over 49 years, and we've got uh three adult children and 12 grandchildren.
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That's great.
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And and I I I will also say your 16 books, they're not just like 80 pages each.
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These are you've written six pretty serious books.
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A lot of writing.
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That's great, good.
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Well, speaking of that, um, why don't you kind of orient us towards this book?
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Um, you know, as we we have these conversations, we we like to say every book has a backstory.
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Tell us a bit about what sparked the idea for this project and what what need in the evangelical church are you looking to meet with this book?
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Uh a number of years ago, I was at a gathering of the Theological Advisory Council of Harbor Network.
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It's a church planting network.
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Uh, and then we were discussing uh men and women uh as they engage in church planting.
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And I jotted down in the midst of that conversation an initial definition of the word complementarity, and then we brainstormed about the idea.
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And there was a representative, uh acquisitions editor there from BH Academic.
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She was present at this gathering.
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She initiated a conversation with me, and that eventually turned into me writing the book called Complementarity.
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So that's the backstory.
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I think it's important to say what we what we, what you do and don't mean by that title, because I think a lot of people who have been, you know, in various discussions at various levels, uh, various parts of the evangelical search uh church, such as it kind of uh parses itself out on questions of men and women's role, both in the home and in the family and the church.
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All this to say the word complementarity has certain connotations or associations.
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So I wanted to give you an opportunity.
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Can you distinguish kind of for listeners who maybe have heard of this book and are excited to hear you talk more about it or haven't heard of it?
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What are what are you doing here and how might that be different from the way questions about men, women, and church uh might be sh happening in adjacent terminology, I suppose.
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Uh so I I we you don't, you know, people misplace, oh well, I know what that book is about.
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Maybe challenge uh or or clarify what the book is and isn't about.
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So uh complementarity is not complementarianism and it's not egalitarianism.
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Complementarity, in my definition, is uh God's purpose for men and women, his male and female image bears, to uh fill out and mutually support one another in terms of their relationships in their families, uh in their vocations, their work, and in their churches for their individual and corporate flourishing.
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It's a foundational matter in terms of what are men and women and what are their relationships.
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Complementarianism and egalitarianism are frameworks of men and women's roles uh in the church, in the home, and some would say also in society.
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And complementarity, the book, is not at all about roles, it's not about functions and all like that, but it really focuses on who we are, our identity, our nature as image bearers, uh, and talk about that, and I don't address roles.
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Yeah.
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No, and I think that's part of what I think makes this project unique and helpful is that you're not um adjudicating kind of egalitarianism, you know, evangelical egalitarianism, such as it is, and evangelical complementarianism as it is.
00:14:08.189 --> 00:14:15.789
But certainly much of what you discuss here will have relevance for those discussions and as people are leading in their churches.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah, um I interact, those are my two major interlocutors, my two conversations.
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So throughout the book, right, I interact with complementarian and egalitarian interpretations of many, many, many, many passages and theological ideas, but I don't adjudicate between I've just said this on this passage about Deborah, about Holder, right?
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Uh complementarianism often views it this way, egalitarianism often views it this way.
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What are lessons that we can draw from these two prophetesses for complementarity?
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Yes.
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Yeah, and uh maybe two more things quickly on that.
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I remember having a conversation with an egalitarian theologian once, and this person said to me that they were disappointed that they felt like they couldn't use the word complementarity or complementary in their theological articulation of what they understood the difference between men and women to be and how that works together, because they're like, it's just a wonderful and beautiful word.
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And I refuse to kind of like give it up because I actually think there's something really helpful there.
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And I think that's what I receive, you know, and what you've done here is this word, no one owns this word in any sort of kind of narrow theological uh tradition or position on these issues.
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Um, it's it's really helpful along those lines.
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And uh maybe last thing I'll say, I know I've been, you know, uh chattering on for a little bit on the front end.
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I think this book will be really helpful for elder boards and church staff and discussions like this in particular.
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We recently at Calvary had a kind of process with uh, you know, key folks in the church and the elder board discussions on church leadership, uh, the role of women in ministry, all these sorts of things.
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And it's kind of like, man, I wish this book was around a couple of years ago when we were having those conversations.
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And I know many of our listeners, many in our fellows' network will be having discussions around this sort of thing in church.
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And I think this is really helpful.
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I just want to commend this book to people who are having those kind of those conversations because it is a more quote unquote neutral playing ground for having these discussions.
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And I think you've done, you've accomplished something really valuable there.
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Thanks.
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Those are yeah, those are really kind words.
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Uh, thank you so much.
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Yeah, uh, when I talk about complementarity, it doesn't address roles and functions and offices.
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I'm not saying by that that these are unimportant.
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And in our churches, right, we have to have these conversations.
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They are very important.
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My point is they're secondary, they're not first two issues, though, first here, though they often get that.
00:17:00.509 --> 00:17:15.789
And uh, but I'm not saying these discussions are unimportant, they just have to be put on a foundation of who we are as men and women, uh, redeemed image bearers in Jesus Christ, to engage with one another in love and honor and reciprocity and mutuality.
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That's who we are in terms of our identity.
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And uh, so I'm not offering uh a third way between complementarianism and egalitarianism.
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I'm not trying to find a mediating ground.
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I'm working in something more foundational from which flow all these wonderful discussions about leadership and roles and functions and things like that.
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That's that's really helpful.
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I think that's a great clarification to help people understand what you're doing in the book.
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And I think it's an important theme that I appreciated throughout on this principle that you you talk about ontology precedes functions and roles.
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And as you just said, it doesn't it doesn't mean we don't talk about functions and roles, but if you start there, it it can often really come make the conversation a much diff different conversation than perhaps we should be having.
00:18:12.269 --> 00:18:15.950
So why is it this important?
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Why is this principle important for grounding a theological vision of men and women as the image bearers of God?
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This idea that ontology precedes functions and roles, why is that important for theological work in general?
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I think it's important for as an axiom for theology, philosophy, many other disciplines.
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We often overlook it.
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But something that uh my pastor uh constantly says, and I'm picking up on this, identity precedes function.
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That's one of my pastor's main themes.
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So it's a starting point.
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And and let's just think about the biblical storyline creation, fall, redemption, consummation.
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We start in chapter one with the creation of human beings in God's image.
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That becomes our identity.
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That is our identity.
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The identity is that of image bearers, not sinners.
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That's chapter two, right?
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That's an anomaly, that's that's a tragedy that takes place.
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But human identity is not that of sinner, but of divine image bearer.
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And then as we understand who we are as redeemed image bearers, then we can articulate the role of men and women in the church and the home from a complementarian perspective.
00:19:32.910 --> 00:19:38.509
Uh, but we have to start with the nature of men and women and the relationships in those spheres.
00:19:38.670 --> 00:19:44.509
Then uh we talk about the functions of men and women that flow from our identity.
00:19:45.070 --> 00:19:54.750
Another example of this would be, uh, like in ecclesiology, most books over the course of the last 50 or 60 years have been about how to do church, right?
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What are the ministries of the church?
00:19:56.990 --> 00:20:12.190
My point is before we talk about the ministries of the church, we need to understand the biblical and theological vision of the nature of the church as the new covenant people of God, the body of Christ, temple of the Holy Spirit, family of brothers and sisters in Christ.
00:20:12.269 --> 00:20:15.550
We need to understand the nature of the church.
00:20:15.789 --> 00:20:21.070
Then we can think through contextually what are the ministries of the church.
00:20:21.310 --> 00:20:33.550
And in another one of my books called Sojourners and Strangers, I try to emphasize ontology uh precedes function in ecclesiology, it does theological anthropology in many, many other areas.
00:20:33.870 --> 00:20:35.470
No, that's super helpful.
00:20:35.710 --> 00:20:46.430
Yeah, and it is interesting to think about how that axiom, like I like that that that language might apply in other kind of fields of theological inquiry as well.
00:20:46.590 --> 00:21:07.470
Uh shifting gears a little bit, uh one of your key dialogue partners, interlocutors, I think really the interlock, like the main dialogue partner, is Sister Prudence Allen's three-volume work, The Concept of a Woman, which is not a work that I was familiar with before before reading this.
00:21:07.550 --> 00:21:10.430
I think that'll be the case for many listeners as well.
00:21:10.910 --> 00:21:15.230
Why did you find her work so helpful in the first instance?
00:21:15.470 --> 00:21:27.470
And what about it do you think might lead to some consternation among uh evangelical kind of scholars or even pastors or readers?
00:21:27.710 --> 00:21:37.710
And um, then you suggest like what might that consternation reveal in itself uh about our or our disposition towards uh scholarly work on these questions.
00:21:38.110 --> 00:21:41.310
Yeah, thanks for letting me talk about uh Sister Prudence Allen.
00:21:41.390 --> 00:21:50.830
Um the whole first part of my book, the historical section, so about a hundred pages, relies heavily on the work of this uh Roman Catholic nun.
00:21:50.990 --> 00:21:53.789
She's part of the Religious Sisters of Mercy.
00:21:54.110 --> 00:22:02.110
And her lifelong project, 45 years, resulted in these three massive volumes, the concept of woman.
00:22:02.670 --> 00:22:16.590
And uh she's key for me because her historical work, beginning 2,500 years ago, working up to 2015, it's meticulously and exhaustively researched, written, and documented.
00:22:17.390 --> 00:22:25.950
Now, some readers may be concerned that it was written by a Roman Catholic nun and even more so, maybe it's written by a woman.
00:22:26.509 --> 00:22:34.590
My response, her three-volume work and her historical research, yeah, really it's the way research should be done.
00:22:34.910 --> 00:22:51.710
And I was able to track down almost all of her primary sources, the ones I needed to check on, to make sure that the references throughout her book really did communicate what those authors like Aristotle or Augustine were trying to communicate.
00:22:51.950 --> 00:23:01.550
As she built this extensive development of the concept over woman uh of woman over the course of 2,500 years, I was able to go back to those original sources and say, she's got it right.
00:23:01.710 --> 00:23:06.190
She's describing what these views are and the development, how it um um impacted.
00:23:08.110 --> 00:23:28.509
So readers who have concerns about that, let me just say, should check that those concerns derive properly from her reading and treatment of historical sources and not from some biases or maybe prejudices about Roman Catholic nuns and female historians.
00:23:28.830 --> 00:23:31.630
Now, this doesn't mean that Sister Prudence Allen doesn't err.
00:23:31.710 --> 00:23:33.950
Like all of us, she fails at points.
00:23:34.110 --> 00:23:41.710
Like her treatment of the concept of woman in the Reformation is uncharacteristically feeble.
00:23:42.029 --> 00:23:44.910
Maybe as we would expect, because she's Roman Catholic.
00:23:45.390 --> 00:23:51.230
So in that area of the Reformation, right, I had to supplement extensively what I wrote in that section.
00:23:51.390 --> 00:24:05.550
So she's not infallible, she's got her weaknesses, but her overall work is exhaustively and meticulously researched and documented, so well written, I think most readers, maybe all readers, will find it very, very convincing.
00:24:05.710 --> 00:24:08.430
And I hope that they'll uh check her out in her work.
00:24:09.789 --> 00:24:12.670
Just a quick curiosity follow-up question.
00:24:12.830 --> 00:24:18.670
Were you aware of this before you went to serious work on this project?
00:24:18.830 --> 00:24:27.230
Did it emerge during your research as something that was going to be such an important part of your uh your interaction?
00:24:27.550 --> 00:24:35.630
I don't remember where I came across her books, but it was uh a number of years before I embarked on this project.
00:24:35.789 --> 00:24:45.789
And I would say stimulated me, as particularly as I read her first volume, uh, starting with uh Aristotle, Plato, and uh, and then following up.
00:24:46.190 --> 00:24:47.870
It was just such an eye-opener.
00:24:48.190 --> 00:24:56.190
Uh, the horrific, demeaning view uh throughout the last 2,500 years of women.
00:24:56.509 --> 00:25:05.470
Uh they're defective men, they don't possess the same rationality or the authority of rationality like men do.
00:25:05.630 --> 00:25:10.990
They're not they they can't be wise, they don't share the same virtues as men do.
00:25:11.150 --> 00:25:14.350
And it's a very demeaning view of women.
00:25:14.590 --> 00:25:24.590
And that does right, that prompts me in complementarity to unfold in the first hundred or so pages in the book, uh, this view of uh men and women and how would you view it?
00:25:25.070 --> 00:25:38.750
Going back to this ontology question, ontology precedes functions and roles, one of the kind of cultural moments that we're in is a lot of questions of what does it mean to be a man?
00:25:38.990 --> 00:25:41.230
What does it mean to be a woman?
00:25:41.789 --> 00:25:43.390
Is there such a thing as a man?
00:25:43.630 --> 00:25:45.789
Is there such a thing as a woman?
00:25:46.110 --> 00:26:00.750
You very clearly articulate in here a deep commitment to the image of God as male and female in in gendered ways that is that are inescapable.
00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:06.830
Uh, and so there's something to the very nature of us around our genderedness.
00:26:07.710 --> 00:26:23.789
But I wonder if if you can help help us think through a little bit more in your work why forming a biblical vision of what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman is is so vital for the church today.
00:26:23.870 --> 00:26:34.750
And maybe I can add to that, what resources do you think are available to us that maybe we're not tapped into as much as we could be on these conversations?
00:26:35.310 --> 00:26:49.710
Yeah, I think forming a biblical vision is necessary for any topic, any subject, any doctrine, any practice that we are going to engage with in our lives and in the church.
00:26:49.950 --> 00:27:07.789
I remember being part of uh Sojourn Church, where before we did anything in terms of ministry philosophy or practice, our lead pastor always insisted that we write a 25-page white paper that would provide the biblical and theological foundation for whatever we wanted to do in terms of ministry.
00:27:07.950 --> 00:27:12.269
So I think uh forming a biblical vision of anything is very important.
00:27:12.430 --> 00:27:41.310
But in terms of forming a vision for men and women, I think it's important today because the whole topic of men and women in the church is largely devolved into heated debates about the sexes, uh, and then canceling those who take a different position than one does, charging with heresy if a family unit or a church applies biblical instructions about roles in a way different from somebody else, right?
00:27:41.550 --> 00:27:44.590
And and that's just that's to me is tragic.
00:27:44.990 --> 00:27:50.110
And so we focus on identity matters, men and women.
00:27:50.269 --> 00:28:05.230
And what we see in the church today is uh a lot of people defining men in terms of their roles as husbands and fathers, and defining women in terms of their roles as wives and mothers.
00:28:05.470 --> 00:28:15.390
And then if someone, a man or a woman, turns 28, or God forbid, it seems like they will never marry, they struggle with a sense of incompleteness.
00:28:15.789 --> 00:28:16.269
Correct.
00:28:16.509 --> 00:28:25.710
Indeed, they're regarded by others, often people in the church, as broken, and their friends desperately seek to fix them.
00:28:25.950 --> 00:28:30.670
That is, fix them up with a potential marriage partner so they get fixed.
00:28:30.910 --> 00:28:34.830
And so a crisis of identity ensues from this.
00:28:35.310 --> 00:29:02.509
And complementarity with its focus on what it means to be a man and a woman, that is, ident identity matters, provides, I think, people who struggle with these issues, it provides them with freedom, a sense of fulfillment, a sense of completeness, a calling to be what God created them to be, as fully formed disciples of Jesus Christ, apart from or prior to their roles.
00:29:02.830 --> 00:29:07.070
We are complete, full image-bearers of God.
00:29:07.470 --> 00:29:12.190
Uh, before we ever become husbands, fathers, wives, or mothers.
00:29:12.350 --> 00:29:17.390
Those are wonderful additional callings and roles, but they're not our identity.
00:29:17.870 --> 00:29:36.830
And one of the things I so appreciated is in the heart that comes through in the book, the tone that comes through in the book of the mutual interdependence of love that is it it is all over the all over the scriptures.
00:29:37.150 --> 00:29:45.789
Um and I think what complementarity helps us to do is what if we started from that place?
00:29:46.350 --> 00:29:46.670
Yep.
00:29:46.830 --> 00:29:53.310
Um, what if we started from this core conviction that we are created, we owe each other love?
00:29:53.470 --> 00:30:01.310
We are created in this mutual love, and then from there build out towards roles.
00:30:01.789 --> 00:30:07.310
That's a very different framing of the conversation than what we're that we're what we're caught up in today.
00:30:07.470 --> 00:30:23.390
So, Greg, could I ask you just to follow up a little bit more on that, of of that um that mutual in interdependence and the the biblical call to love one another, which is super easy to say.
00:30:23.550 --> 00:30:34.910
Yes, but I think what you've done here is called us to some just core gospel things that then we can apply in the way that we have these conversations.
00:30:35.070 --> 00:30:37.230
So could I ask you just to explore that a little bit more?
00:30:37.630 --> 00:30:51.310
Yeah, uh another very influential book in my preparation for this, for my book, uh, is uh Alice Matthew's book on Paul's greetings in Romans 16.
00:30:52.110 --> 00:31:04.190
And uh as she sets the context for Romans 16, she works through Romans 12 through 15, and she focuses her discussion on what she calls Pauline love mutualism.
00:31:04.350 --> 00:31:07.630
Yeah, as set forth in Romans 12 through 15.
00:31:07.789 --> 00:31:37.470
And just briefly, the apostle directs the church, both men and women, let love be genuine, love one another with brotherly and sisterly affection, outdo one another in showing honor to one another, contribute to the needs of the saints, show hospitality, live in harmony with one another, owe no one anything except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
00:31:37.870 --> 00:31:41.070
So this is the positive vision of complementarity.
00:31:41.230 --> 00:31:44.430
It's as you said, it's a gospel issue, a call to love.
00:31:44.509 --> 00:31:58.190
It's Francis Schaefer's old little book called The Mark of a Christian is not ministry and fame, it's it's love, and it's a call back to that reality that I think is too easily overlooked.
00:31:58.269 --> 00:32:02.670
But I I I believe churches will grasp this and want to practice it.
00:32:02.990 --> 00:32:07.789
Yeah, I I will just echo my appreciation for this as well.
00:32:08.190 --> 00:32:17.550
And I think it is like it is demonstrated that we've kind of taken our eye off the ball or lost sight of things.
00:32:18.190 --> 00:32:23.630
I mean, you were just saying the mark of Christians is this kind of love mutuality, and Christians are known by their love.
00:32:23.710 --> 00:32:28.670
There's lots of New Testament passages that we could cite here, you know, upper room discourse, all this.
00:32:28.990 --> 00:32:39.310
But I think in the heat that you were talking about before on gender roles, and it really often is about roles in Christian debate.
00:32:39.789 --> 00:32:54.750
I think people, and you know, politics plays into this as well, but it's as if we think that Christians, like the mark of Christian faithfulness is having a certain view about gender roles.
00:32:54.910 --> 00:32:55.230
Yep.
00:32:55.390 --> 00:33:12.029
Um, where like, you know, they will know we are Christians because we have benevolent patriarchal heads of the household and you know, submissive women uh uh mothering children at home, as if like that's what made us distinct.
00:33:12.269 --> 00:33:19.150
And again, it's not that it is not to suggest that Christian theology has nothing to do with this or the Bible has nothing to say about those things.
00:33:19.470 --> 00:33:27.150
But you know, there were times in my life where I felt like this is the kind of unique thing that makes the Christian vision of the world what it is.
00:33:27.310 --> 00:33:29.950
And you read the New Testament, no, it is not.
00:33:30.350 --> 00:33:35.230
This love that we have for one another is always the distinguishing factor.
00:33:35.390 --> 00:33:41.310
So I love the way that you've driven us back to look at that core thing as the core thing.
00:33:41.470 --> 00:33:44.110
Um let me pick up on that too, because I'm not gonna be able to do that.
00:33:44.910 --> 00:33:46.110
I got another question for you, but go.
00:33:46.430 --> 00:33:49.310
You're writing a book about uh uh virtues, right?
00:33:49.470 --> 00:33:52.190
Particularly men addressing that.
00:33:52.430 --> 00:34:09.469
And and uh your point is that the Christian virtues, let's think of the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, and all like that, uh, these are virtues that are enjoined upon both men and women, both male and female redeemed image bearers.
00:34:09.710 --> 00:34:11.869
And uh we're all called to this.
00:34:12.110 --> 00:34:21.309
Uh and and so to embrace again the complementarity of men and women in terms of the their virtues, I think this is the core issue.
00:34:21.550 --> 00:34:28.989
Before, and again, not discounting discussions about gender and roles, but that's very important, but it's it's got to be secondary.
00:34:29.150 --> 00:34:30.509
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:30.829 --> 00:34:39.309
So back to these discussions, then definitions are so important, and it it's a key part of your project.
00:34:39.550 --> 00:34:46.269
And I think you you repeatedly define your terms and then you return to your definitions of them.
00:34:46.429 --> 00:34:58.029
And I think this is often where a lot of these discussions can go sideways on on gender and identity and theological anthropology is well, we're we're working with different definitions, we're not defining our terms.
00:34:58.269 --> 00:35:09.070
What have you observed about that in these intramural kind of inter-evangelical debates about men and women uh in the church?
00:35:09.389 --> 00:35:17.470
Yeah, so the tendency is to define men and women in terms of their roles and their distinctives, right?
00:35:17.630 --> 00:35:42.750
So you can imagine if we do a chart and uh we have in this column male and this column female, we have this tendency to fill the male column with like rationality and protectiveness, the female column with uh emotionalism and nurturing and those kinds of things.
00:35:42.829 --> 00:35:45.630
And my which is very Aristotelian, it's a good idea.
00:35:45.789 --> 00:35:48.430
Which you come back to uh repeatedly, yes.
00:35:48.670 --> 00:35:58.430
Yep, and my point is there are no particular human capacities like rationality, emotionalism, volition, things like that.
00:35:58.590 --> 00:36:06.829
And there are no particular human properties like goodness and protectiveness and love that belong in one or the other columns, right?
00:36:06.909 --> 00:36:08.269
They're all common.
00:36:08.510 --> 00:36:17.950
Yet, because God has created us as sex image bearers, those capacities and those properties will always be expressed in sexed ways.
00:36:18.110 --> 00:36:23.309
That is, men will express love and protectiveness in male ways, ditto for women.
00:36:23.389 --> 00:36:28.030
They will express those same virtues and qualities and properties in female ways.
00:36:28.190 --> 00:36:37.550
So this is the idea of complementarity, uh, dignity, where equal as image bears, remarkably wonderful differences between men and women.
00:36:37.710 --> 00:36:49.710
But when we come together and mutually support one another and love and honor one another, there is a synergy that is created as we are interdependent as God wills us to be.
00:36:49.789 --> 00:36:52.030
And that's the beauty of complementarity.
00:36:52.510 --> 00:37:19.950
So let me ask now, Greg, in terms of kind of cashing this out a little bit, and for pastors um in ministry, how would you encourage pastor theologians as they labor, uh teach, lead in local churches with all the cultural issues that are swirling and the debates that are going on around male and female and gender?
00:37:20.110 --> 00:37:27.389
How would you encourage them to lead their churches when it comes to this topic of complementarity?
00:37:27.789 --> 00:37:29.150
This is such a good question.
00:37:29.309 --> 00:37:31.309
I got a thousand things I want to say.
00:37:31.389 --> 00:37:33.950
So bring it up.
00:37:34.909 --> 00:37:53.070
So I think realize first, realize and emphasize that almost all scripture addresses its readers with instructions, directives, warnings, exhortations, admonitions that are for everyone, women and men alike.
00:37:54.030 --> 00:38:10.750
And secondly, trust and preach that all scripture is inspired by God, profitable for teaching, rebuke, correction, and training in righteousness for all Christians, meaning Ruth and Esther are not just for women, but for women and men.
00:38:11.150 --> 00:38:18.590
And Jonah and the pastoral epistles, first and second Timothy and Titus, are not just for men, but for men and women alike.
00:38:19.470 --> 00:38:46.829
And third, if I can address leaders of complementarian churches, and I'm picking this up from Andrew Wilson in London, when you survey the entirety of your congregation, say when you're preaching on Sunday morning, don't just see the 40% of your members, men, and then envision them as future church leaders, assuming they meet the biblical qualifications.
00:38:47.470 --> 00:38:59.389
Rather see 100% of your members, men and women, envision them as future church leaders according to your complementarian structure.
00:38:59.630 --> 00:39:13.869
The men may become elders and deacons, again, assuming they meet the biblical qualifications for those offices, and the women in a complementarian structure, though they will not become elders, may become deacons, deacon women deacons, deaconesses.
00:39:14.190 --> 00:39:23.630
Then, as you envision all this, get both men and women in leadership training processes that will prepare them for church leadership.
00:39:23.950 --> 00:39:29.230
So three hopefully pretty practical ways of landing the plane here.
00:39:29.710 --> 00:39:38.750
Yeah, this is maybe just building off the previous question a little bit, but maybe final question and then and then we'll we'll wrap up.
00:39:39.070 --> 00:39:46.430
Specifically, so we talked about pastors, but now like I want to talk about the cultural, the kind of church component a little bit.
00:39:46.590 --> 00:40:02.909
Like, how can churches as a community promote this vision of complementarity in this cultural moment in not just the West, but uniquely in America has its own its own textures and nuance.
00:40:04.990 --> 00:40:26.990
I mean, the kind of Judith Butler thesis of the distinction between gender and sex really has been influential in recent decades and has kind of had a field day in the culture, and um whatever kind of backlash against that, and this is tied into kind of the rise of the manosphere and even the Trump phenomenon, all sorts of things.
00:40:27.070 --> 00:40:29.950
It's it's a we've referenced this a few times in the discussion.
00:40:30.030 --> 00:40:33.389
It's a very hot moment on these questions in the culture.
00:40:33.710 --> 00:40:49.150
So as churches kind of are trying to commend this biblical vision that you're talking about, what are some of the obstacles in front of them that are communities, but as well as the opportunities that prevent present themselves uh in this moment?
00:40:49.869 --> 00:41:01.150
Uh again, a key obstacle that we've mentioned is the elevation of roles and functions and offices to uh first-tier issues.
00:41:01.950 --> 00:41:04.110
I think that's a dangerous move.
00:41:04.750 --> 00:41:22.670
Uh I think uh another difficulty is there's a move now within maybe strict complementarianism and patriarchicalism to have those frameworks that really deal with roles and functions become metaphysical foundational matters.
00:41:22.829 --> 00:41:22.990
Yeah.
00:41:23.389 --> 00:41:26.590
And uh those those kind of theological danger.
00:41:26.829 --> 00:41:27.470
Yeah, exactly.
00:41:27.550 --> 00:41:31.070
They're those frameworks will not support what they're being asked to do.
00:41:31.150 --> 00:41:41.550
They're they're about roles and and differences and functions, and all that's important, but they're not they're not going to get down to the core of who we are as image bears or identity matters and things like that.
00:41:41.869 --> 00:41:45.869
Or theology proper for that matter, which is I mean, it touches everything, yeah.
00:41:46.110 --> 00:41:47.869
But that's what's so striking to me about that.
00:41:47.950 --> 00:41:58.590
Sorry to interject, is that the kind of reversal of this where you go from a gender role and somehow get up to theology proper, just theological methodology, it's straight backwards.
00:41:58.829 --> 00:41:59.309
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:59.470 --> 00:42:06.750
So I think another thing would be so so there's a corrective move today in a lot of churches.
00:42:06.909 --> 00:42:14.590
The corrective move, we need to really over-emphasize men and men's ministries.
00:42:14.750 --> 00:42:20.349
You know, we want to focus on building strong men and flourishing women's ministries.
00:42:20.590 --> 00:42:30.430
And if that means we underemphasize women and women's ministries, so be it, because they've been given the advantage over the course of the last 50, 60 years or whatever.
00:42:30.829 --> 00:42:33.630
And my my point is this is not a zero-sum game.
00:42:33.789 --> 00:42:37.150
Yeah, this isn't you've got to build one or the other, right?
00:42:37.309 --> 00:42:40.510
Build strong men, build strong women.
00:42:40.829 --> 00:42:45.950
Build strong women's ministry, build strong men's ministries, right?
00:42:46.190 --> 00:42:48.269
Uh you can do that.
00:42:48.670 --> 00:42:51.950
Uh and so those are some of my concerns.
00:42:52.110 --> 00:42:54.430
But there's there's a lot of potential in this.
00:42:54.510 --> 00:43:02.750
As if we if we emphasize this complementarity, emphasize who we are as image bearers in relationships with one another.
00:43:02.909 --> 00:43:09.309
I I think it is like Joel mentioned, it's a call back to the gospel and it's focus on love.
00:43:09.550 --> 00:43:16.750
Again, not demeaning these other areas of functions and and roles, but let's say putting them in their proper place.
00:43:17.070 --> 00:43:21.950
Greg, yeah, thanks so much um for the book.
00:43:22.110 --> 00:43:41.470
I I know it's it's a lot of work to write something like this, and it's thoroughly research, and you cover history and biblical theology and scriptures and uh application, and just thank you for your for your service to the church in in writing the book.
00:43:41.630 --> 00:43:43.710
So, so very appreciate that.
00:43:44.190 --> 00:43:44.909
Well, thank you.
00:43:45.070 --> 00:43:54.909
Those are again very kind uh words, and thank you for giving me the opportunity through your podcast to set out what I'm trying to do in complementarity.
00:43:55.070 --> 00:43:56.349
I really appreciate it.
00:43:56.909 --> 00:43:57.470
Absolutely.
00:43:57.630 --> 00:44:05.630
And um we look forward to to uh continued podcasts as you continue to churn out books, Lord willing.
00:44:07.070 --> 00:44:08.190
That's right, that's right.
00:44:08.349 --> 00:44:12.670
And um growing, continue to grow the relationship with with you and the CPT.
00:44:12.750 --> 00:44:13.710
So thanks, brother.
00:44:13.789 --> 00:44:14.349
We appreciate you.
00:44:14.670 --> 00:44:15.630
Thanks, Joe and Zach.
00:44:15.869 --> 00:44:16.909
Thank you so much.
00:44:18.510 --> 00:44:24.510
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00:44:24.750 --> 00:44:28.829
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00:44:38.670 --> 00:44:43.309
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00:44:43.550 --> 00:44:48.430
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00:44:48.909 --> 00:44:56.990
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00:44:57.230 --> 00:45:03.470
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00:45:04.110 --> 00:45:06.349
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