Bianca Basilio: today I'm joined by Trent McLaren of Vinyl, co-founder of The Firm and founder of Journey. thanks for being here. Before we dive in for anyone listening who doesn't know you yet, can you give a quick intro in your own words and what you do today? How did you end up in this world?
Trent Mclaren: Yeah, look, it's a, it's a long story, but I know we've got a shorter, ⁓ on time today. ⁓ I've, my name's Trent and I've been working in accounting, the accounting industry for nearly 13, 14 years now, primarily on the software vendor side, pretty much always on the software vendor side. ⁓ and I've been running my own business called Journey for three years now. And I was just saying to you before, it's our third birthday today. So the team and I have been
Bianca Basilio: Congratulations.
Trent Mclaren: Thank you. Yeah. It's, an exciting ⁓ moment, I think, because when I look at all the other things we're doing with vinyl and the firm, ⁓ it's, we couldn't have done all those things without Journey. And I think that's the fun part. And there's a lot of other people I could thank for everything that came into the stage, but yeah, a lot of hard lessons as a business owner to learn in your first proper business. yeah, Journey is definitely the place where you get to.
Bianca Basilio: By the name, what a journey.
Trent Mclaren: I know, I know that's my been my dad joke all day today is like, thanks for being on the journey guys. So yeah, it's a, that's me. So yeah, worked in AccountingTech for 13 years, run a few different businesses. The other one that's been going really well for us is Vinyl, which is our software tech startup. We recently raised $2 million ⁓ in investment for that back in June last year. And some of that money coming from ⁓
Bianca Basilio: You
Trent Mclaren: other founders that are in the accounting space. So people like ⁓ Guy Pearson from Ignition, Richard McLean from KeyPay, Michael Wood from Dex to Receipt Bank. So we were surrounded by just great people that have been here and done amazing jobs building amazing businesses and companies for the accounting industry. And we're just hoping to follow in those same footsteps.
Bianca Basilio: I love that. And it's obvious you've been in long enough that you've seen the shiny version of the industry and also the messy version as well.
Trent Mclaren: Yeah, there's definitely two sides. There's the, we all see in posts on social media. And then there's what actually happens in the, the Slack channels and the support tickets and the bugs and the late nights. And, ⁓ when things go wrong, you know, the things that you don't, you don't want anyone to hear about really. So yeah, it's, the fun part.
Bianca Basilio: inside. So when you look back, what's the moment you realize this industry is like way more complex than people think?
Trent Mclaren: I mean, if you're an accountant, you know, it's a complex industry. It's only outsiders that think it can be automated and streamlined and, you know, AI is going to take everyone's jobs. If you ask someone that actually works in accounting that has done this for a long time, then you'll, you know, they understand that that is going to be really hard and difficult and largely because things change so regularly. Compliance changes so often. that tech companies can't generally keep up with the speed of the change that comes with those elements. And every country represents different challenges. Australia is the most complex country in the world when it comes to payroll. ⁓ America's sales tax, when you look at between different counties and states and everything is just bananas. Like it's an absolute wild thing to try to build software for. ⁓ And you've got a lot of legacy giants in there that are out resourced more than everyone else, but then with AI at the moment, it's interesting to watch how fast these other startups can come out of nowhere and really shake the tree a little bit. yeah, it's definitely an interesting time. but I've known it's complex because I've had to work with so many accountants and bookkeepers during my sort of time in the industry. And I love it. It's fun. think it's that mix of I wasn't necessarily a numbers. finance guy growing up, I was definitely entrepreneurial in business. And I think that's the side I appreciate when it comes to the accounting and bookkeeping piece is that you get a really good understanding of impact and how to create results. And you know, what does that mean for different people? There's the compliance and obligation side that, you know, everyone has to be across, but yeah, no, I really enjoy the entrepreneurial side to accounting. That's what keeps me super interested in it all.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah, that's the thing from the outside people think accounting is just numbers, right? But inside of them, like people, deadlines, trust, handovers, client emotions, and then like software sits on top of all that, right? ⁓ yeah. ⁓
Trent Mclaren: Yeah, software is the enabler to help get things done a little bit faster, a little bit more efficiently to help hopefully give a better clarity, better results, better lifestyle. Like, you know, there's so many different ways to spin out. find for me tech enables me to do more work. It doesn't necessarily stop me doing ⁓ doing less work. I feel like I'm working more and getting more done with all the tools and the tech at my disposal. And I think that's probably the same for most. bookkeeping accounting, it does mean they get to get rid of the jobs they don't like doing. So, you know, if you were hand coding, ⁓ you know, your bank statements and, and, know, getting at the ruler to try to figure out, right, this is the, what is this one? And, ⁓ yeah, like, you know, a lot of that stuff's all long and gone and people are happy for that. We don't want that job anyway. Happy to remove all the jobs I don't want to do.
Bianca Basilio: Exactly. So was there a specific moment like you realize, I want to do this for the industry, a specific like this is broken or something like that?
Trent Mclaren: For vinyl in particular or just in general.
Bianca Basilio: In general, I have vinyl, I have the firm as well. We can talk about that.
Trent Mclaren: I fell into this industry to be honest. I joined a tech company in Canberra back in 2014, 15, no sorry, it was 2012 going even further back. And they were an online payments company that sold payments into the accounting space as well as e-commerce. They were called E-Way. And I ever since that job have just been in accounting ever since. I wanted to work in software. thought that would be really fun for me. I was always interested in technology growing up, played a lot of video games, played a lot of sport, all those sorts of fun things. And yeah, I took this role when I was living in Canberra ⁓ in this payments company called Eway. And they were one of the first integrated payment partners to Xero. And that was my sort of foray into this, this step. ⁓ From there, I started, I took a role in Sydney.
Bianca Basilio: Haha. is a flaw.
Trent Mclaren: with QuickBooks and everything just sort of then span out of that. Like once I did that and took my next job with practice ignition at the time, there was no getting rid of me. was running as hard as I could. Yeah, I was running as hard as I could in this industry. was traveling the world. was standing on stages, doing a lot of public speaking and writing and using social media to grow a brand and a profile. And yeah, it's just exploded out of that, to be honest.
Bianca Basilio: was in on. Yeah, that's fantastic. So you'll you know you around this ecosystem for a long time if you compare firms today, like to five or let's say 10 years ago, what feels genuinely different or and what was has like hasn't changed at all, for example.
Trent Mclaren: I think it depends on the country. Different countries experience different waves of how things tend to move. Australia tends to be one of the faster moving countries with adoption of technology and everything else. The thing that slows it all down is the government trying to keep up with that as well. So I kind of made that point before on tech companies can't necessarily always keep up with the speed of compliance changing and how that impacts. but then governments can't also keep up with all the things that tech companies are trying to do. And that can also, you know, slow down progress and innovation at the same time. ⁓ I would also say that other software suppliers, there's a lot of choice for software these days, particularly in accounting. And that can also slow down the progress. Like if you've got too many brands or beating the drum or trying to get everyone's attention, it actually slows things down for everyone else as well. So, you know, there's disadvantages of having a
Bianca Basilio: lot of noise.
Trent Mclaren: disadvantages to having a monopoly in some certain circumstances because we're at the risk of those providers like looking after us or not trying to like price gouge and all that. But then the opposite of that is that there's an issue when there's too many suppliers because I don't know who to choose. And now it just is a lot of noise. They all look the same. ⁓ so there's different challenges on both sides. If I, I think everyone's tolerance, ⁓ in Australia to try new things is still pretty high.
Bianca Basilio: time.
Trent Mclaren: They're happy to give things a go and see how it works. And they're always looking for more efficiencies. think AI has injected a new wave of that where all these existing solutions are finding how do you get more efficiencies within our product so that you are clicking in less things and you are having to think a little bit less about the information you were trying to put ⁓ into the system in the first place. The one thing I think most accounting firms and bookkeepers have always been focused on as the result for their client. I don't think that
Bianca Basilio: that. So,
Trent Mclaren: has changed. I think the compliance has become a heavier burden, but they are very resilient in wanting to still do the best job that they, you know, pledged to solving for as part of their CA CPA. I think managing client expectations and client communications is actually the biggest issue most firms face because services business is hard. I know that from my time at Journey. ⁓ It's a lot of work and
Bianca Basilio: It is, yeah.
Trent Mclaren: you know, trying to just, and when you're working with people, that's always a lot of work. yeah, there are a few key thoughts, I guess.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah, exactly what I see. Yeah, there I think there are more tools than ever, for sure. And you know, doesn't automatically mean more calm as well. And people overwhelmed with so much, you know, there's a lot information there. Yeah, it's almost like the industry upgraded the tech faster than in the upgraded how the workflows, right? It's funny. So why do you think that that gap keeps happening? You know, the tech and how the industry adapts to the tech.
Trent Mclaren: ⁓ I think, I think technology companies are obviously looking for opportunity in this compliance is one of the things that's never going to go away. So if you're trying to build a company, a tech company, a software company today, you're looking at your market and where can I best build a solution that people are happy to pay for? And where do I build into something that is a regular problem? Compliance is a regular problem. Bookkeeping, counting, banking, like I'm going to spend money every day. That's never going to change.
Bianca Basilio: It is.
Trent Mclaren: I need to account for all of that. That's never going to change. only going to get more intense. So therefore I think for technology providers that are looking for better ways to solve problems and build a business with good commercials, accounting for me has always been a no brainer. Like it's an industry that will kind of forever be there that I can ⁓ continue to support and build solutions for. So yeah, I think that's the main driver. It's a good industry that continues to need. and adapt and adopt new solutions.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah, definitely. So do you think firms are overwhelmed by choice now?
Trent Mclaren: I think overall, probably yes, on average, most people would say there's too many. There's more than a thousand apps on the zero app store and the QuickBooks ecosystems. you don't need a thousand, but I know some firms that'll sit there and say, Hey, we've got 30 or 40 or 50 different apps. ⁓ we probably will see a consolidation into a all in one style practice management system.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: but even there are drawbacks within that as well. So you see a lot of practice management systems that are trying to be all in one, but they also have an ecosystem available so that you can choose the experience or the flows that you want to put in place. And the bigger challenge is trying to stay up to date with all of it. So knowing there's a thousand is tough, knowing which ones or where to start is tough. There's a, you know, now a marketplace for
Bianca Basilio: it.
Trent Mclaren: implementation partners, people that spend people like me that spend all their time looking at all this stuff. So that when someone says, Hey, I need a solution for docu signing or for proposals or note taking or whatever it may be. There are some people that can just, you know, write a little off and go, cool. know exactly what's there and how it works. And, ⁓ yeah, it's crazy to think 10, 15 years ago, this ecosystem had just been born and now think about all the other markets within the markets that have been created off that it's, ⁓
Bianca Basilio: I'm sorry. second. Crazy.
Trent Mclaren: Yeah, it's pretty awesome.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah, pretty awesome. So from what you see, where does he usually like break down? Is it tools, ⁓ people or the way the work is designed?
Trent Mclaren: ⁓ it's probably all three. It's sometimes it's the tools, sometimes it's the people. And then sometimes it can just be the work. ⁓ there are some forms that I cannot digitally sign still when I'm dealing with a bank or an agreement and no tech is going to be able to solve that. That's a policy and a process and the legislation. So there are some things that need to catch up and get solved there so that the rest of my workflow can be sorted. And then there are just some people that just can't be helped that have terrible expectations that don't understand it. And they're sometimes uneducated and that's tough as well. Um, and then yeah, there are tech and tools that have been designed and applied to accounting, but maybe not designed with an accounting use case primarily in mind. So you're to get some things that are 80 % good, but don't quite go to that full 20%. So I think the tech that tends to do best in accounting are the ones that are either built and born out of the accounting firm as an idea, or they're born and built by people that truly understand the audience and are only trying to solve problems for that audience. Yeah.
Bianca Basilio: You understand the workflow as well, right? You need to adapt the tools to the workflow. Yeah. Yeah. I think I feel that the messy parts, like is everything around the right, admin, the chasing, the followups, the handovers or who owns this? I think that's the messy.
Trent Mclaren: who understand the workflow. Yeah, absolutely. It's extremely messy. Yeah. mean, in an accounting firm, it's also just about structure and roles, I would say. So it's in the people bucket, but sometimes you've got people that are chasing customers, clients for information and you know, they're billables like a hundred bucks an hour or 150 an hour or whatever it is. And some of that work should be with the admin, the admin that's, know, their hourly rate is much lower or, know, there are appropriate times to use offshore outsource teams.
Bianca Basilio: Exactly.
Trent Mclaren: I think people get bombarded with knowing how to do that and what that looks like. But if you've got strong offshore teams in place, then you are able to deliver the right work by the right people at the right price. And ⁓ that can have a huge economic benefit if you can get that structure right.
Bianca Basilio: focus on. Thank Yeah, for sure. think that they miss a lot of like to understand the whole workflow and adapt using the right tools to adapt to the workflow. I think because sometimes I feel that they do the opposite. They put the tools, a lot of apps, as you said before, and they, you know, adapt to the application and to the system. They need to be the opposite, right? So from your experience, what do like the best firms do differently?
Trent Mclaren: 100%. I think they're super motivated on their customer. Like they're trying to, they're trying to think and act like an organization that is commercially driven. have KPIs, they have team members that understand KPIs. They are, they would consider their client satisfaction at KPI that they're trying to stick close to. And they genuinely just want the best outcome for both their team members and their clients. I think that is predominantly what the best accounting firms do, regardless of size. and you know, there are some that might take it the wrong way and it's, you know, they can be extra maybe greedy and all that sort of stuff, but I mean, it's, each their own. Like you get to decide what sort of organization you want to run, but I think the best firms do all those things. So they're looking at their people, their processes and the tech, and they're unified that around the company goals, key KPIs, and they communicate that culture and. those goals so it's organization wide. Everyone understands why they're in the business, what they're trying to do and where they're headed.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I agree. So I want to talk about the firm for a second. So what made you want to build it?
Trent Mclaren: So we started Journey, which was our marketing agency for software companies and accounting service providers. We have that, that team is built up of marketing people, content creation, web design. There's 23 staff to, work across five or six different countries. It's a decent, decent sized team in business. We decided to start the firm because we are often working with other media providers on. marketing campaigns, execution campaigns. And we also sit on a lot of content. Like we're so exposed to all the problems and gripes that the accounting industry has that we wanted to find a way to unify and bring all these things together. So we're trying to build a space for the accounting community. We're trying to build a space for the vendors to be able to, you know, economically position themselves and get in front of their customers the right way. And it also just makes our life easier too, because we If we're trying to match and pair up and run events for accounting firms, like we have this amazing platform to be able to do that from. have these big amazing databases that we can communicate to these people through to help bring all these things together. So for us, it was a bit of a no brainer. had, you know, ambition, direction, capability, skillset, resourcing. We had all the things to make it happen. And we think we can. do a good job or a better job than most at trying to do it in a way that pleases everyone, like balances everyone's satisfaction with what we're trying to achieve. And yeah, that was honestly, that's just kind of where it all came from.
Bianca Basilio: It's a really great initiative. I really get that because accountants have so much knowledge, but the industry hasn't always had a good place to share in a modern way. So that's an amazing initiative. So it's not even like, it's the profile. Once we evolve, people want examples of what good looks like, right? So they go there and it's amazing. So what surprised you most once it was live?
Trent Mclaren: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. surprised me most. I mean, you obviously just want to make sure people like what you're doing and that they're enjoying it all. But yeah, we just, get lots of feedback every week. People that just said, you so much. Like, you know, you spending time on things I don't have time to spend time on. So, we don't make any money out of like the accounting, the readers, the people that come to consume and absorb all the content or anything like that. We make a little bit of money sometimes with the vendors that we work with, but primarily I'd
Bianca Basilio: Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: You know, if our, if our journey marketing agency is a, know, like we make over a few mil a year in like professional service revenue, like our firm revenue is going to be less than a hundred grand. Like it's pretty small in comparison. So it's not a big money driver ⁓ in that sense for us, but we do a little bit here and there to just, you know, in a few scenarios where it sort of makes sense and we're not breaking any of the rules that we're trying to do. ⁓ But yeah, biggest surprise just.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: that people enjoy it and like it and they continue to work with us, I think is probably the main one. But ⁓ we try to spend a good amount of time listening and reading and reviewing what everyone's talking about so that we can put the best information forward to everyone.
Bianca Basilio: No. Yeah. So what kind of voices do you think like the industry needs more right now, especially here in Australia?
Trent Mclaren: It's very practical, right? Like people are busy and they just want to hear from people that have done the thing that they're having a problem with, or they want to hear from other people that are thinking about the things they're thinking about. And they know we're also going through the same things they're going through. think accounting's always been a really interesting industry where they want to help each other and share. And, ⁓ you know, you don't necessarily see Lawyers and I mean, I don't share to other marketing agencies in comparison, right? Like I don't go to the marketing agency meetup to understand what they're all doing. Not because I, well, I genuinely just don't care because like they're just different industries and verticals. feel like I'm more closely in the accounting industry than I am in the marketing industry. If you get what I mean. so it's yeah, accounting has been one of those places where they, they want to support and help each other. They want to hear from each other. ⁓ and yeah, again, I love that. think that's great.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah, so do you think like firm leaders are becoming more open publicly?
Trent Mclaren: Yeah, I think so. It definitely depends on who they are. And some people are more motivated for other reasons. They want to buy or sell or merge. Therefore they want to be a bit more open and it's their version of branding themselves. And then you've got young up and comers rising stars that are trying to do more things and they want to learn from other mentors and so forth. So yeah, I think everyone's got their own motivations as to why, but a lot of it comes back to just community and belonging, wanting to grow or you know, that that other stage of trying to transition into the next stage of their career.
Bianca Basilio: That's fantastic, thanks for that, Trent. So let's talk vinyl. The line that stood out to me that turns meeting into action. What was happening in firms that made you think like we need something specifically built for this?
Trent Mclaren: I think this just comes from working in software for a long time and understanding the dynamics of the industry. I say better than most, but genuinely I think we've sit, we sit really close to it and we've got a really good finger in all the pies to understand it better than most people. There are like other products you could use Microsoft teams, you can use Fireflies, but my big gamble that I had to put down is that I don't think any of them will care about the accounting industry. I don't think any of them will do the work to integrate into the accounting technology stacks. You're not going to find them at an accounting conference anytime soon. They just don't care enough about specific verticals. We understand the vertical inside and out. are, I don't know, 50 to a hundred specific examples in our product that are built with an accounting firm and a bookkeeper in mind. that we are centered around. And I say this every time I do a demonstration. Like if you've got a good idea, you should tell me because we'll probably build it because if it's good for you, it's going to be good for everyone else that we're trying to service at the same time. And we've just had a really good run. Like we launched this product about 12 months ago. We were telling the world, it's coming. We're doing this. Join the wait list. We put everyone into the product instead of March, April time, people started recording their first set of meetings and doing all that kind of stuff. And it's just evolve off that. think we had, we're nearly 3000 users on the platform today. So that's been 12 months and we've got to that point. ⁓ we're recording over 350 hours with the meetings every single day at the moment. ⁓ it's just the beast of that keeps on growing and everyone's been really excited. Like the customers are super excited. They understand that we're early, but they can see the momentum we're building and they can see the impact it's having.
Bianca Basilio: Well.
Trent Mclaren: I think we just understood that note taking was not a new idea, but it was finally the right time for the industry to start adopting them and getting it pushed back into their tech stacks, particularly with things like the TASA legislations coming through, accounting firms that need to have better information available on all the conversations they've had with clients, better file note structures.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah, fine.
Trent Mclaren: And then I think the evolution of practice management systems. So being at a now integrate back into carbon FYI, zero practice manager. ⁓ some of that wouldn't have been possible like, you know, two, three, four, five years ago. So, ⁓ it was a little bit of right time, right place. It was a little bit of us looking at how AI was starting to shape how people were working and just understanding that the transcript that comes out of every conversation is the most powerful part. If we can help them capture the transcript and what they can automate with the transcript after the fact.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: is endless. Like there's so many things you can do with that. I was testing it out and you chat today and I actually managed to look at the meeting, analyze it quickly and then draft a new scope of work all in the space of like five minutes post a meeting that I'd had yesterday without me having to go and do the heavy thinking and how that looks or works.
Bianca Basilio: Let's go. Yeah. Yeah, that's great catches gold because you my point of view, the meetings, the expensive part, it's time, attention, context. And then the moment it ends, the value leaks out unless someone catches right. And it turned into tasks that actually move. So that's like gold for me. Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: Not everyone is in the meeting either. I think that's the other part. It's we tried to kill the post meeting meeting that meeting everyone has after the meeting to talk about what we're all going to do and who's going to do it. Like we don't need to do that anymore. You don't need five people in a meeting. could just be two people and everyone else can catch the notes and figure out what they need to do next as a result. ⁓ and I think it's really important understanding the role of who's who in the meeting, who's leading, who's discussing what decisions need to be made. I think the goal is that yes, you record the meeting, but you turn up more prepped and more efficient. You execute more efficiently. You're communicating more efficiently. So there's a lot of more work to do around that, but that's the overall consensus of where our focus is.
Bianca Basilio: So just for me to understand, so what kind of conversation does Vinyl help most with? Because it is connected to the accounting apps, right? So it can create tasks automatically. How does it work?
Trent Mclaren: Yeah. So we push meeting summaries back into the practice management system. So once the meeting's finished, you'll have a record of that showing in carbon or in FYI or, zero practice manager. And your team can also access all that information as well. So if they went in the meeting and they want to catch up, they can log in, they can see the meetings that are held with the client and they can then start asking questions of our AI to get more information out. So it could be job handover, could be, like I said before, a pricing consideration. It can literally be anything, which is awesome. So yeah.
Bianca Basilio: That's good. So when you zoom out, right, in the industry, so what's like one operational friction that's quietly drain firms, but doesn't get talked about enough.
Trent Mclaren: I think I, I think I said that before a little bit. It's, ⁓ I think everyone's talked about the talent issue for awhile, like trying to hire team members, trying to find the right team members, trying to keep them. And there's an element, I think it's just trying to find the right people in the right seats. think outsourcing offshoring has been a big part of that for some people, but some people just haven't been comfortable enough to get it working. And as a result, it means they need to try and find and hire locally. Um, for that, think we'll start to see a lot more people that want to just do freelance tax. Like they just want to work when they want to work almost like the gig economy for tax workers and accounting folks who don't want the commitment of like, look, I'm just going to clock in today. I'm going to do a few jobs and they're going to clock out and just do what I want without the idea of a nine to five and a full time and whatever. I expected to get a little bit more flexible possibly to help accommodate with the shortages that come through. Um, but I expect also that people will continue to find better ways to do outsourcing offshoring. think AI helps enable that because your offshoring teams now using AI can be much more smarter, efficient, they're spelling their grammar. Like that should no longer be an issue anymore, which is pretty interesting. Um, which means you can, you know, have a team member producing a certain quality of work. If you've got the processes in place, that could have been the same level as a junior, junior or a mid.
Bianca Basilio: hope so. That's the point, the process needs to be there, right? Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: That's right. Process needs to be there for sure. ⁓ but I still, it's probably processing people. It's definitely not tech. There's, there's stacks of tech and if you figure out how to use it, you'll do well with it. But having the process and the people has always been the hard thing. And that's 10 years ago, 20 years ago, same thing. It was always about processing people. Tech has enabled things to be faster and efficient in some regards, but getting the right people and having your processes in place. So you act like a, you know, It's definitely not tech. There's, there's stacks of tech and if you figure out how to use it, you'll do well with it. But having the process and the people has always been the hard thing. a business that's connected and on the same page. think that's the thing that everyone continues to focus on.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah, 100%. So looking ahead like three to five years, what do you think will separate, in the tech space, right, will separate firms that feel calm and in control from firms that stay like reactive?
Trent Mclaren: Uh, I mean, I think you said it, if you're reactive, it's because things aren't organized and you're not giving yourself the capacity to, to react properly or efficiently. Um, I think, you know, we talk about capacity at like, I'm at a hundred percent. It's like, you probably should always be at 80 % with a 20 % buffer. I would say that's the way you can always grow is if you maintain that 10 to 20 % buffer, uh, three to five years from now, I think we just keep heading in the same direction, right? Like there's going to be more things in AI. that will continue to evolve the work and how the work gets done. I think the talent shortage piece is still going to be an issue, but some of that may be supplemented because of the advancements in the tech enabling your offshoring outsourcing or taking over some of the work. Therefore, maybe we need less. Yeah, possibly. Yeah. I, like I said at the start, I don't find I do less work. I tend to do more work now that I'm like tech enabled, but
Bianca Basilio: Give more capacity as well, right? Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: I think it just depends on the firm. think they can make those decisions on whether they can work less days or whatever, but I find most people just go and tend to do more work.
Bianca Basilio: So, in your opinion, should firms start doing now?
Trent Mclaren: You just got to lean in. I, if depending on where you're at, like if you're someone that's already leaning in, I'm, I am that person. I'd rather lean in and work through the messy middle that we're trying to figure out. ⁓ I like, ⁓ understanding everything before it becomes more mainstream because you can understand the use cases and how it impacts everything. But I think that's for me, that's where I've always found the opportunity is that if you stay super close to.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: what's evolving in what's best practice in processing people in hiring in education and training to tech as well, then I am in more control of my destiny. I can see all the cards that are in front of me. can choose who I want to play them. And you know, I'm fairly young guy. Like I've got another 20, 30 years. Who knows? I keep doing this for a while and that'll probably be my strategy.
Bianca Basilio: doing the work.
Trent Mclaren: All the way through. yeah, I'm just going to keep strapping in head down. But I think for anyone else, it'd be, ⁓ you just got to lean in and try to keep a finger on the pulse of the things that are important to you. and yeah, I, it's always been that though. think some people just want a lifestyle business. That's cool too. Just be happy, be balanced, do what you want to do. Spend the time with the people you want to spend time with and, ⁓ don't take it all. Yeah. Don't take it too seriously. Like the world doesn't end.
Bianca Basilio: That's the best advice.
Trent Mclaren: If you don't get this stuff right, I think a lot of people can fall into that trap. And that's the overwhelm of like, ⁓ how do I keep up with it all? And it's like, look, break it down. Start with the key problem you need to solve first to have a vision of where you're trying to go first and work backwards from that. That's the strategy part that I think most people could spend more time on, I think is having a strategy and a goal and then just trying to help execute and align to those things.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah. I love that. So for anyone listening who wants to follow your work, connect, check out vinyl, the firm, what's the best place to find you?
Trent Mclaren: Uh, I am all over LinkedIn. Uh, you can definitely find me there. LinkedIn is probably the best and easiest way to keep up with what's going on. Uh, you can jump onto the vinyl website. It's used vinyl.com. You can also jump onto the firm, which is the firm.media. And if you're an accounting software supplier or a technology company, uh, we have journey, which is our agency for accounting SaaS, uh, companies we've worked with, you know, 50, 60. software brands in the last three years. ⁓ and we're very good at what we do. So yeah, it's, ⁓ but that, that's it. I'd say LinkedIn is the best place.
Bianca Basilio: Fantastic, Trent, thank you so much. This was really grounded, useful conversation. I appreciate you making the time.
Trent Mclaren: No problems. Thank you so much for the opportunity. appreciate it.
Trent Mclaren: Yeah, look, it's a, it's a long story, but I know we've got a shorter, ⁓ on time today. ⁓ I've, my name's Trent and I've been working in accounting, the accounting industry for nearly 13, 14 years now, primarily on the software vendor side, pretty much always on the software vendor side. ⁓ and I've been running my own business called Journey for three years now. And I was just saying to you before, it's our third birthday today. So the team and I have been
Bianca Basilio: Congratulations.
Trent Mclaren: Thank you. Yeah. It's, an exciting ⁓ moment, I think, because when I look at all the other things we're doing with vinyl and the firm, ⁓ it's, we couldn't have done all those things without Journey. And I think that's the fun part. And there's a lot of other people I could thank for everything that came into the stage, but yeah, a lot of hard lessons as a business owner to learn in your first proper business. yeah, Journey is definitely the place where you get to.
Bianca Basilio: By the name, what a journey.
Trent Mclaren: I know, I know that's my been my dad joke all day today is like, thanks for being on the journey guys. So yeah, it's a, that's me. So yeah, worked in AccountingTech for 13 years, run a few different businesses. The other one that's been going really well for us is Vinyl, which is our software tech startup. We recently raised $2 million ⁓ in investment for that back in June last year. And some of that money coming from ⁓
Bianca Basilio: You
Trent Mclaren: other founders that are in the accounting space. So people like ⁓ Guy Pearson from Ignition, Richard McLean from KeyPay, Michael Wood from Dex to Receipt Bank. So we were surrounded by just great people that have been here and done amazing jobs building amazing businesses and companies for the accounting industry. And we're just hoping to follow in those same footsteps.
Bianca Basilio: I love that. And it's obvious you've been in long enough that you've seen the shiny version of the industry and also the messy version as well.
Trent Mclaren: Yeah, there's definitely two sides. There's the, we all see in posts on social media. And then there's what actually happens in the, the Slack channels and the support tickets and the bugs and the late nights. And, ⁓ when things go wrong, you know, the things that you don't, you don't want anyone to hear about really. So yeah, it's, the fun part.
Bianca Basilio: inside. So when you look back, what's the moment you realize this industry is like way more complex than people think?
Trent Mclaren: I mean, if you're an accountant, you know, it's a complex industry. It's only outsiders that think it can be automated and streamlined and, you know, AI is going to take everyone's jobs. If you ask someone that actually works in accounting that has done this for a long time, then you'll, you know, they understand that that is going to be really hard and difficult and largely because things change so regularly. Compliance changes so often. that tech companies can't generally keep up with the speed of the change that comes with those elements. And every country represents different challenges. Australia is the most complex country in the world when it comes to payroll. ⁓ America's sales tax, when you look at between different counties and states and everything is just bananas. Like it's an absolute wild thing to try to build software for. ⁓ And you've got a lot of legacy giants in there that are out resourced more than everyone else, but then with AI at the moment, it's interesting to watch how fast these other startups can come out of nowhere and really shake the tree a little bit. yeah, it's definitely an interesting time. but I've known it's complex because I've had to work with so many accountants and bookkeepers during my sort of time in the industry. And I love it. It's fun. think it's that mix of I wasn't necessarily a numbers. finance guy growing up, I was definitely entrepreneurial in business. And I think that's the side I appreciate when it comes to the accounting and bookkeeping piece is that you get a really good understanding of impact and how to create results. And you know, what does that mean for different people? There's the compliance and obligation side that, you know, everyone has to be across, but yeah, no, I really enjoy the entrepreneurial side to accounting. That's what keeps me super interested in it all.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah, that's the thing from the outside people think accounting is just numbers, right? But inside of them, like people, deadlines, trust, handovers, client emotions, and then like software sits on top of all that, right? ⁓ yeah. ⁓
Trent Mclaren: Yeah, software is the enabler to help get things done a little bit faster, a little bit more efficiently to help hopefully give a better clarity, better results, better lifestyle. Like, you know, there's so many different ways to spin out. find for me tech enables me to do more work. It doesn't necessarily stop me doing ⁓ doing less work. I feel like I'm working more and getting more done with all the tools and the tech at my disposal. And I think that's probably the same for most. bookkeeping accounting, it does mean they get to get rid of the jobs they don't like doing. So, you know, if you were hand coding, ⁓ you know, your bank statements and, and, know, getting at the ruler to try to figure out, right, this is the, what is this one? And, ⁓ yeah, like, you know, a lot of that stuff's all long and gone and people are happy for that. We don't want that job anyway. Happy to remove all the jobs I don't want to do.
Bianca Basilio: Exactly. So was there a specific moment like you realize, I want to do this for the industry, a specific like this is broken or something like that?
Trent Mclaren: For vinyl in particular or just in general.
Bianca Basilio: In general, I have vinyl, I have the firm as well. We can talk about that.
Trent Mclaren: I fell into this industry to be honest. I joined a tech company in Canberra back in 2014, 15, no sorry, it was 2012 going even further back. And they were an online payments company that sold payments into the accounting space as well as e-commerce. They were called E-Way. And I ever since that job have just been in accounting ever since. I wanted to work in software. thought that would be really fun for me. I was always interested in technology growing up, played a lot of video games, played a lot of sport, all those sorts of fun things. And yeah, I took this role when I was living in Canberra ⁓ in this payments company called Eway. And they were one of the first integrated payment partners to Xero. And that was my sort of foray into this, this step. ⁓ From there, I started, I took a role in Sydney.
Bianca Basilio: Haha. is a flaw.
Trent Mclaren: with QuickBooks and everything just sort of then span out of that. Like once I did that and took my next job with practice ignition at the time, there was no getting rid of me. was running as hard as I could. Yeah, I was running as hard as I could in this industry. was traveling the world. was standing on stages, doing a lot of public speaking and writing and using social media to grow a brand and a profile. And yeah, it's just exploded out of that, to be honest.
Bianca Basilio: was in on. Yeah, that's fantastic. So you'll you know you around this ecosystem for a long time if you compare firms today, like to five or let's say 10 years ago, what feels genuinely different or and what was has like hasn't changed at all, for example.
Trent Mclaren: I think it depends on the country. Different countries experience different waves of how things tend to move. Australia tends to be one of the faster moving countries with adoption of technology and everything else. The thing that slows it all down is the government trying to keep up with that as well. So I kind of made that point before on tech companies can't necessarily always keep up with the speed of compliance changing and how that impacts. but then governments can't also keep up with all the things that tech companies are trying to do. And that can also, you know, slow down progress and innovation at the same time. ⁓ I would also say that other software suppliers, there's a lot of choice for software these days, particularly in accounting. And that can also slow down the progress. Like if you've got too many brands or beating the drum or trying to get everyone's attention, it actually slows things down for everyone else as well. So, you know, there's disadvantages of having a
Bianca Basilio: lot of noise.
Trent Mclaren: disadvantages to having a monopoly in some certain circumstances because we're at the risk of those providers like looking after us or not trying to like price gouge and all that. But then the opposite of that is that there's an issue when there's too many suppliers because I don't know who to choose. And now it just is a lot of noise. They all look the same. ⁓ so there's different challenges on both sides. If I, I think everyone's tolerance, ⁓ in Australia to try new things is still pretty high.
Bianca Basilio: time.
Trent Mclaren: They're happy to give things a go and see how it works. And they're always looking for more efficiencies. think AI has injected a new wave of that where all these existing solutions are finding how do you get more efficiencies within our product so that you are clicking in less things and you are having to think a little bit less about the information you were trying to put ⁓ into the system in the first place. The one thing I think most accounting firms and bookkeepers have always been focused on as the result for their client. I don't think that
Bianca Basilio: that. So,
Trent Mclaren: has changed. I think the compliance has become a heavier burden, but they are very resilient in wanting to still do the best job that they, you know, pledged to solving for as part of their CA CPA. I think managing client expectations and client communications is actually the biggest issue most firms face because services business is hard. I know that from my time at Journey. ⁓ It's a lot of work and
Bianca Basilio: It is, yeah.
Trent Mclaren: you know, trying to just, and when you're working with people, that's always a lot of work. yeah, there are a few key thoughts, I guess.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah, exactly what I see. Yeah, there I think there are more tools than ever, for sure. And you know, doesn't automatically mean more calm as well. And people overwhelmed with so much, you know, there's a lot information there. Yeah, it's almost like the industry upgraded the tech faster than in the upgraded how the workflows, right? It's funny. So why do you think that that gap keeps happening? You know, the tech and how the industry adapts to the tech.
Trent Mclaren: ⁓ I think, I think technology companies are obviously looking for opportunity in this compliance is one of the things that's never going to go away. So if you're trying to build a company, a tech company, a software company today, you're looking at your market and where can I best build a solution that people are happy to pay for? And where do I build into something that is a regular problem? Compliance is a regular problem. Bookkeeping, counting, banking, like I'm going to spend money every day. That's never going to change.
Bianca Basilio: It is.
Trent Mclaren: I need to account for all of that. That's never going to change. only going to get more intense. So therefore I think for technology providers that are looking for better ways to solve problems and build a business with good commercials, accounting for me has always been a no brainer. Like it's an industry that will kind of forever be there that I can ⁓ continue to support and build solutions for. So yeah, I think that's the main driver. It's a good industry that continues to need. and adapt and adopt new solutions.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah, definitely. So do you think firms are overwhelmed by choice now?
Trent Mclaren: I think overall, probably yes, on average, most people would say there's too many. There's more than a thousand apps on the zero app store and the QuickBooks ecosystems. you don't need a thousand, but I know some firms that'll sit there and say, Hey, we've got 30 or 40 or 50 different apps. ⁓ we probably will see a consolidation into a all in one style practice management system.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: but even there are drawbacks within that as well. So you see a lot of practice management systems that are trying to be all in one, but they also have an ecosystem available so that you can choose the experience or the flows that you want to put in place. And the bigger challenge is trying to stay up to date with all of it. So knowing there's a thousand is tough, knowing which ones or where to start is tough. There's a, you know, now a marketplace for
Bianca Basilio: it.
Trent Mclaren: implementation partners, people that spend people like me that spend all their time looking at all this stuff. So that when someone says, Hey, I need a solution for docu signing or for proposals or note taking or whatever it may be. There are some people that can just, you know, write a little off and go, cool. know exactly what's there and how it works. And, ⁓ yeah, it's crazy to think 10, 15 years ago, this ecosystem had just been born and now think about all the other markets within the markets that have been created off that it's, ⁓
Bianca Basilio: I'm sorry. second. Crazy.
Trent Mclaren: Yeah, it's pretty awesome.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah, pretty awesome. So from what you see, where does he usually like break down? Is it tools, ⁓ people or the way the work is designed?
Trent Mclaren: ⁓ it's probably all three. It's sometimes it's the tools, sometimes it's the people. And then sometimes it can just be the work. ⁓ there are some forms that I cannot digitally sign still when I'm dealing with a bank or an agreement and no tech is going to be able to solve that. That's a policy and a process and the legislation. So there are some things that need to catch up and get solved there so that the rest of my workflow can be sorted. And then there are just some people that just can't be helped that have terrible expectations that don't understand it. And they're sometimes uneducated and that's tough as well. Um, and then yeah, there are tech and tools that have been designed and applied to accounting, but maybe not designed with an accounting use case primarily in mind. So you're to get some things that are 80 % good, but don't quite go to that full 20%. So I think the tech that tends to do best in accounting are the ones that are either built and born out of the accounting firm as an idea, or they're born and built by people that truly understand the audience and are only trying to solve problems for that audience. Yeah.
Bianca Basilio: You understand the workflow as well, right? You need to adapt the tools to the workflow. Yeah. Yeah. I think I feel that the messy parts, like is everything around the right, admin, the chasing, the followups, the handovers or who owns this? I think that's the messy.
Trent Mclaren: who understand the workflow. Yeah, absolutely. It's extremely messy. Yeah. mean, in an accounting firm, it's also just about structure and roles, I would say. So it's in the people bucket, but sometimes you've got people that are chasing customers, clients for information and you know, they're billables like a hundred bucks an hour or 150 an hour or whatever it is. And some of that work should be with the admin, the admin that's, know, their hourly rate is much lower or, know, there are appropriate times to use offshore outsource teams.
Bianca Basilio: Exactly.
Trent Mclaren: I think people get bombarded with knowing how to do that and what that looks like. But if you've got strong offshore teams in place, then you are able to deliver the right work by the right people at the right price. And ⁓ that can have a huge economic benefit if you can get that structure right.
Bianca Basilio: focus on. Thank Yeah, for sure. think that they miss a lot of like to understand the whole workflow and adapt using the right tools to adapt to the workflow. I think because sometimes I feel that they do the opposite. They put the tools, a lot of apps, as you said before, and they, you know, adapt to the application and to the system. They need to be the opposite, right? So from your experience, what do like the best firms do differently?
Trent Mclaren: 100%. I think they're super motivated on their customer. Like they're trying to, they're trying to think and act like an organization that is commercially driven. have KPIs, they have team members that understand KPIs. They are, they would consider their client satisfaction at KPI that they're trying to stick close to. And they genuinely just want the best outcome for both their team members and their clients. I think that is predominantly what the best accounting firms do, regardless of size. and you know, there are some that might take it the wrong way and it's, you know, they can be extra maybe greedy and all that sort of stuff, but I mean, it's, each their own. Like you get to decide what sort of organization you want to run, but I think the best firms do all those things. So they're looking at their people, their processes and the tech, and they're unified that around the company goals, key KPIs, and they communicate that culture and. those goals so it's organization wide. Everyone understands why they're in the business, what they're trying to do and where they're headed.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I agree. So I want to talk about the firm for a second. So what made you want to build it?
Trent Mclaren: So we started Journey, which was our marketing agency for software companies and accounting service providers. We have that, that team is built up of marketing people, content creation, web design. There's 23 staff to, work across five or six different countries. It's a decent, decent sized team in business. We decided to start the firm because we are often working with other media providers on. marketing campaigns, execution campaigns. And we also sit on a lot of content. Like we're so exposed to all the problems and gripes that the accounting industry has that we wanted to find a way to unify and bring all these things together. So we're trying to build a space for the accounting community. We're trying to build a space for the vendors to be able to, you know, economically position themselves and get in front of their customers the right way. And it also just makes our life easier too, because we If we're trying to match and pair up and run events for accounting firms, like we have this amazing platform to be able to do that from. have these big amazing databases that we can communicate to these people through to help bring all these things together. So for us, it was a bit of a no brainer. had, you know, ambition, direction, capability, skillset, resourcing. We had all the things to make it happen. And we think we can. do a good job or a better job than most at trying to do it in a way that pleases everyone, like balances everyone's satisfaction with what we're trying to achieve. And yeah, that was honestly, that's just kind of where it all came from.
Bianca Basilio: It's a really great initiative. I really get that because accountants have so much knowledge, but the industry hasn't always had a good place to share in a modern way. So that's an amazing initiative. So it's not even like, it's the profile. Once we evolve, people want examples of what good looks like, right? So they go there and it's amazing. So what surprised you most once it was live?
Trent Mclaren: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. surprised me most. I mean, you obviously just want to make sure people like what you're doing and that they're enjoying it all. But yeah, we just, get lots of feedback every week. People that just said, you so much. Like, you know, you spending time on things I don't have time to spend time on. So, we don't make any money out of like the accounting, the readers, the people that come to consume and absorb all the content or anything like that. We make a little bit of money sometimes with the vendors that we work with, but primarily I'd
Bianca Basilio: Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: You know, if our, if our journey marketing agency is a, know, like we make over a few mil a year in like professional service revenue, like our firm revenue is going to be less than a hundred grand. Like it's pretty small in comparison. So it's not a big money driver ⁓ in that sense for us, but we do a little bit here and there to just, you know, in a few scenarios where it sort of makes sense and we're not breaking any of the rules that we're trying to do. ⁓ But yeah, biggest surprise just.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: that people enjoy it and like it and they continue to work with us, I think is probably the main one. But ⁓ we try to spend a good amount of time listening and reading and reviewing what everyone's talking about so that we can put the best information forward to everyone.
Bianca Basilio: No. Yeah. So what kind of voices do you think like the industry needs more right now, especially here in Australia?
Trent Mclaren: It's very practical, right? Like people are busy and they just want to hear from people that have done the thing that they're having a problem with, or they want to hear from other people that are thinking about the things they're thinking about. And they know we're also going through the same things they're going through. think accounting's always been a really interesting industry where they want to help each other and share. And, ⁓ you know, you don't necessarily see Lawyers and I mean, I don't share to other marketing agencies in comparison, right? Like I don't go to the marketing agency meetup to understand what they're all doing. Not because I, well, I genuinely just don't care because like they're just different industries and verticals. feel like I'm more closely in the accounting industry than I am in the marketing industry. If you get what I mean. so it's yeah, accounting has been one of those places where they, they want to support and help each other. They want to hear from each other. ⁓ and yeah, again, I love that. think that's great.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah, so do you think like firm leaders are becoming more open publicly?
Trent Mclaren: Yeah, I think so. It definitely depends on who they are. And some people are more motivated for other reasons. They want to buy or sell or merge. Therefore they want to be a bit more open and it's their version of branding themselves. And then you've got young up and comers rising stars that are trying to do more things and they want to learn from other mentors and so forth. So yeah, I think everyone's got their own motivations as to why, but a lot of it comes back to just community and belonging, wanting to grow or you know, that that other stage of trying to transition into the next stage of their career.
Bianca Basilio: That's fantastic, thanks for that, Trent. So let's talk vinyl. The line that stood out to me that turns meeting into action. What was happening in firms that made you think like we need something specifically built for this?
Trent Mclaren: I think this just comes from working in software for a long time and understanding the dynamics of the industry. I say better than most, but genuinely I think we've sit, we sit really close to it and we've got a really good finger in all the pies to understand it better than most people. There are like other products you could use Microsoft teams, you can use Fireflies, but my big gamble that I had to put down is that I don't think any of them will care about the accounting industry. I don't think any of them will do the work to integrate into the accounting technology stacks. You're not going to find them at an accounting conference anytime soon. They just don't care enough about specific verticals. We understand the vertical inside and out. are, I don't know, 50 to a hundred specific examples in our product that are built with an accounting firm and a bookkeeper in mind. that we are centered around. And I say this every time I do a demonstration. Like if you've got a good idea, you should tell me because we'll probably build it because if it's good for you, it's going to be good for everyone else that we're trying to service at the same time. And we've just had a really good run. Like we launched this product about 12 months ago. We were telling the world, it's coming. We're doing this. Join the wait list. We put everyone into the product instead of March, April time, people started recording their first set of meetings and doing all that kind of stuff. And it's just evolve off that. think we had, we're nearly 3000 users on the platform today. So that's been 12 months and we've got to that point. ⁓ we're recording over 350 hours with the meetings every single day at the moment. ⁓ it's just the beast of that keeps on growing and everyone's been really excited. Like the customers are super excited. They understand that we're early, but they can see the momentum we're building and they can see the impact it's having.
Bianca Basilio: Well.
Trent Mclaren: I think we just understood that note taking was not a new idea, but it was finally the right time for the industry to start adopting them and getting it pushed back into their tech stacks, particularly with things like the TASA legislations coming through, accounting firms that need to have better information available on all the conversations they've had with clients, better file note structures.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah, fine.
Trent Mclaren: And then I think the evolution of practice management systems. So being at a now integrate back into carbon FYI, zero practice manager. ⁓ some of that wouldn't have been possible like, you know, two, three, four, five years ago. So, ⁓ it was a little bit of right time, right place. It was a little bit of us looking at how AI was starting to shape how people were working and just understanding that the transcript that comes out of every conversation is the most powerful part. If we can help them capture the transcript and what they can automate with the transcript after the fact.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: is endless. Like there's so many things you can do with that. I was testing it out and you chat today and I actually managed to look at the meeting, analyze it quickly and then draft a new scope of work all in the space of like five minutes post a meeting that I'd had yesterday without me having to go and do the heavy thinking and how that looks or works.
Bianca Basilio: Let's go. Yeah. Yeah, that's great catches gold because you my point of view, the meetings, the expensive part, it's time, attention, context. And then the moment it ends, the value leaks out unless someone catches right. And it turned into tasks that actually move. So that's like gold for me. Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: Not everyone is in the meeting either. I think that's the other part. It's we tried to kill the post meeting meeting that meeting everyone has after the meeting to talk about what we're all going to do and who's going to do it. Like we don't need to do that anymore. You don't need five people in a meeting. could just be two people and everyone else can catch the notes and figure out what they need to do next as a result. ⁓ and I think it's really important understanding the role of who's who in the meeting, who's leading, who's discussing what decisions need to be made. I think the goal is that yes, you record the meeting, but you turn up more prepped and more efficient. You execute more efficiently. You're communicating more efficiently. So there's a lot of more work to do around that, but that's the overall consensus of where our focus is.
Bianca Basilio: So just for me to understand, so what kind of conversation does Vinyl help most with? Because it is connected to the accounting apps, right? So it can create tasks automatically. How does it work?
Trent Mclaren: Yeah. So we push meeting summaries back into the practice management system. So once the meeting's finished, you'll have a record of that showing in carbon or in FYI or, zero practice manager. And your team can also access all that information as well. So if they went in the meeting and they want to catch up, they can log in, they can see the meetings that are held with the client and they can then start asking questions of our AI to get more information out. So it could be job handover, could be, like I said before, a pricing consideration. It can literally be anything, which is awesome. So yeah.
Bianca Basilio: That's good. So when you zoom out, right, in the industry, so what's like one operational friction that's quietly drain firms, but doesn't get talked about enough.
Trent Mclaren: I think I, I think I said that before a little bit. It's, ⁓ I think everyone's talked about the talent issue for awhile, like trying to hire team members, trying to find the right team members, trying to keep them. And there's an element, I think it's just trying to find the right people in the right seats. think outsourcing offshoring has been a big part of that for some people, but some people just haven't been comfortable enough to get it working. And as a result, it means they need to try and find and hire locally. Um, for that, think we'll start to see a lot more people that want to just do freelance tax. Like they just want to work when they want to work almost like the gig economy for tax workers and accounting folks who don't want the commitment of like, look, I'm just going to clock in today. I'm going to do a few jobs and they're going to clock out and just do what I want without the idea of a nine to five and a full time and whatever. I expected to get a little bit more flexible possibly to help accommodate with the shortages that come through. Um, but I expect also that people will continue to find better ways to do outsourcing offshoring. think AI helps enable that because your offshoring teams now using AI can be much more smarter, efficient, they're spelling their grammar. Like that should no longer be an issue anymore, which is pretty interesting. Um, which means you can, you know, have a team member producing a certain quality of work. If you've got the processes in place, that could have been the same level as a junior, junior or a mid.
Bianca Basilio: hope so. That's the point, the process needs to be there, right? Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: That's right. Process needs to be there for sure. ⁓ but I still, it's probably processing people. It's definitely not tech. There's, there's stacks of tech and if you figure out how to use it, you'll do well with it. But having the process and the people has always been the hard thing. And that's 10 years ago, 20 years ago, same thing. It was always about processing people. Tech has enabled things to be faster and efficient in some regards, but getting the right people and having your processes in place. So you act like a, you know, It's definitely not tech. There's, there's stacks of tech and if you figure out how to use it, you'll do well with it. But having the process and the people has always been the hard thing. a business that's connected and on the same page. think that's the thing that everyone continues to focus on.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah, 100%. So looking ahead like three to five years, what do you think will separate, in the tech space, right, will separate firms that feel calm and in control from firms that stay like reactive?
Trent Mclaren: Uh, I mean, I think you said it, if you're reactive, it's because things aren't organized and you're not giving yourself the capacity to, to react properly or efficiently. Um, I think, you know, we talk about capacity at like, I'm at a hundred percent. It's like, you probably should always be at 80 % with a 20 % buffer. I would say that's the way you can always grow is if you maintain that 10 to 20 % buffer, uh, three to five years from now, I think we just keep heading in the same direction, right? Like there's going to be more things in AI. that will continue to evolve the work and how the work gets done. I think the talent shortage piece is still going to be an issue, but some of that may be supplemented because of the advancements in the tech enabling your offshoring outsourcing or taking over some of the work. Therefore, maybe we need less. Yeah, possibly. Yeah. I, like I said at the start, I don't find I do less work. I tend to do more work now that I'm like tech enabled, but
Bianca Basilio: Give more capacity as well, right? Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: I think it just depends on the firm. think they can make those decisions on whether they can work less days or whatever, but I find most people just go and tend to do more work.
Bianca Basilio: So, in your opinion, should firms start doing now?
Trent Mclaren: You just got to lean in. I, if depending on where you're at, like if you're someone that's already leaning in, I'm, I am that person. I'd rather lean in and work through the messy middle that we're trying to figure out. ⁓ I like, ⁓ understanding everything before it becomes more mainstream because you can understand the use cases and how it impacts everything. But I think that's for me, that's where I've always found the opportunity is that if you stay super close to.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah.
Trent Mclaren: what's evolving in what's best practice in processing people in hiring in education and training to tech as well, then I am in more control of my destiny. I can see all the cards that are in front of me. can choose who I want to play them. And you know, I'm fairly young guy. Like I've got another 20, 30 years. Who knows? I keep doing this for a while and that'll probably be my strategy.
Bianca Basilio: doing the work.
Trent Mclaren: All the way through. yeah, I'm just going to keep strapping in head down. But I think for anyone else, it'd be, ⁓ you just got to lean in and try to keep a finger on the pulse of the things that are important to you. and yeah, I, it's always been that though. think some people just want a lifestyle business. That's cool too. Just be happy, be balanced, do what you want to do. Spend the time with the people you want to spend time with and, ⁓ don't take it all. Yeah. Don't take it too seriously. Like the world doesn't end.
Bianca Basilio: That's the best advice.
Trent Mclaren: If you don't get this stuff right, I think a lot of people can fall into that trap. And that's the overwhelm of like, ⁓ how do I keep up with it all? And it's like, look, break it down. Start with the key problem you need to solve first to have a vision of where you're trying to go first and work backwards from that. That's the strategy part that I think most people could spend more time on, I think is having a strategy and a goal and then just trying to help execute and align to those things.
Bianca Basilio: Yeah. I love that. So for anyone listening who wants to follow your work, connect, check out vinyl, the firm, what's the best place to find you?
Trent Mclaren: Uh, I am all over LinkedIn. Uh, you can definitely find me there. LinkedIn is probably the best and easiest way to keep up with what's going on. Uh, you can jump onto the vinyl website. It's used vinyl.com. You can also jump onto the firm, which is the firm.media. And if you're an accounting software supplier or a technology company, uh, we have journey, which is our agency for accounting SaaS, uh, companies we've worked with, you know, 50, 60. software brands in the last three years. ⁓ and we're very good at what we do. So yeah, it's, ⁓ but that, that's it. I'd say LinkedIn is the best place.
Bianca Basilio: Fantastic, Trent, thank you so much. This was really grounded, useful conversation. I appreciate you making the time.
Trent Mclaren: No problems. Thank you so much for the opportunity. appreciate it.
