WEBVTT
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Welcome to the Soul Path Sessions podcast with Deborah Minds Pearson and Brenda Littleton.
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Brenda is an educator and counselor rooted in YY and Ecopsychology.
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She helps her clients understand the importance of the mind, body, spirit, and earth relationship for healing.
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Deborah is a licensed psychotherapist and has been trained in traditional and sacred psychology, exploring from the ground up what makes our human experience meaningful, wholesome, and enlightening.
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Deborah and Brenda invite you to accompany them on a soul path journey as they explore the possibilities of living a more soulful life as therapists, seekers, and lovers of fate.
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Welcome back to SOPA Sessions.
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I'm Deborah Minds Pearson.
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I'm here with my friend and fellow therapist, Brenda Littleton, and today we're gonna be looking at the soul of our relationships and how to get along in our relationships, especially with those people we might share a home with and call family.
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Mm-hmm.
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or anybody that's in our intimate space.
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So that's what I'm interested in.
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Well,
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You've been reading Terry Real?
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Yes.
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Or real, I guess Real,
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Real.
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Terry Real.
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He's mm-hmm.
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About our age.
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He's in his sixties.
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Okay.
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And, um, I know that his work has interested you and there's a few ideas that I'd love to know more about.
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Okay.
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And I know that you're in the be in the, in initiatory, um, molding it over and yet it, it, it really has seeped and saturated you.
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Yes.
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So, while we may not be doing a treaty on Terry r we are going to investigate with respect to his work with, in being with relationship or in relationship.
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Yes.
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So, I love to hear more about the idea of, um, the sense of not being Right.
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I think you, you had some Yeah.
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So, so, so, so much of what he talks about is when we enter a relationship with another human being, we are gonna bring our family of origin right into it.
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And the way we defended ourselves and, and stayed.
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Okay.
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Which was our last podcast.
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Mm-hmm.
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.
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Um, and we have these, um, we, we marry somebody or we're with in a intimate relationship, we're in fantasy.
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And the minute we hit reality, they show us, um, that they think differently than us.
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And then we deal with that in a way that, uh, can be really brutal to, uh, our, our adrenaline.
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And we tend to go into automatic behavior.
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Right.
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Hence why you and I have a job working with, with family systems.
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And so one of the first questions he, he says, I'm not so interested in the problem.
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I'm interested in where that person is inside.
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Like, how are they hooked up?
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Because if I'm talking to a couple and that person's activated and they're in the limbic or emotional center of their brain, acting out childhood trauma, it doesn't matter what topic we're on, it's going to be at a much reg, more regressed place.
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And that's typically what we see in our own relationships.
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And as therapists, we see the topic could be anything.
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It could be the holidays, it could be how you spend money, but if I'm doing it from a place of woundedness, and if I'm doing it from a place of regression, we're gonna have the same old argument again and again and again.
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So he points that out, like, where are you coming from?
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His supposition is, if I'm coming from my prefrontal cortex, my wise adult logic center, I have the capacity to be the following.
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I love this list.
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Nuanced, wise, realistic, forgiving, flexible, warm, yielding, and humble.
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That's the wise adult folks.
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Okay.
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Where
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Does that live?
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?
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Well,
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That lives in the prefrontal cortex.
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Okay.
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It's the ability to weigh and measure, to hold one more than one idea to use discernment.
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Mm-hmm.
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to manage emotions, to be aware of the feelings of others, as well as my own feelings.
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That's really what's distinguishes adults from children, the wise adult.
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I can imagine that I'm having an experience and you're having one too.
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So it's, um, a sense of generosity and compassion mm-hmm.
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and having a sense of belief that, um, you may be in a contrary conversation and you're not going to lose yourself.
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Yeah.
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And this idea of the, the guilty is charged.
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Winning is a big, um, strategy that we tend to get into with other people, and it's really not efficient.
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His focus has largely been on working with men, um, and couples.
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And in our culture, in the patriarchal culture, it's about being top dog winning, um, keeping the ego safe.
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And it's not about cooperating, it's aga about me first and getting outta there unscathed.
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And so he talks about the you and me culture versus the us the title of his book culture.
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And he appeals to the sensibilities of a lot of busy people when he says, uh, practicing nuanced, realistic, forgiving, flexible, warm, yielding and humble states of mind is more efficient
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In the, in the long run.
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The short term in the long run.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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Because for the relationship ex.
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Yes, exactly.
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So you're coming into the, the idea I'm a, um, and, and non-violent communication.
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I'm a facilitator, and the idea is that you both come in with the intention of love and compassion and working things out mm-hmm.
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as opposed to being Right.
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Regardless of what it, you know, what it is that we're gonna go through.
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Yeah.
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So very different
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Direction.
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Well, you know, we start off with that idea, but then there's a, a button that's pushed.
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Okay.
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And our reflexes, we don't even get a chance to think.
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Yeah.
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We go right into how we protected ourself from assault.
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Mm-hmm.
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, I mean, if my frightened self is going to take over and you're now gonna be the enemy, you're gonna be the other.
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It's not gonna be about us.
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And I wouldn't even consider that.
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Maybe you are regressed too.
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Maybe your, you've gone offline, maybe you've had a hard day.
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Mm-hmm.
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, maybe something work didn't happen at work, or you're not feeling well.
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You see, children can't take that perspective unless they've been trained in it to know that parents are separate from themselves and have their a bad day and maybe, uh, aren't reflecting their best selves unless a parent tells'em that.
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So learning how to take the other person's perspective, or at least create space for it, is a huge breakthrough.
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Yeah.
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I mean, we've taught active listening for years as therapists, but what he's really saying, it doesn't matter if you're creating room for the, the patient conversation of parroting what your partner said and reframing, reframing it.
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If you're activated, you can throw it out the windows.
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You're gonna say like, looks like you're feeling sorry for yourself.
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Am I right?
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You know, the active listening isn't gonna work.
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So it's much more a conversation about me and you trying to become us and the awareness that I've gotta get back online and be very generous.
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So how does one become, um, observant of when, when they're in the, the freeway of emotion of being activated?
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Like how, where are the stops?
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Where is where is, like I say with the metaphor, the freeway, where are the off-ramps to be able to get off that track?
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Well, one of them is to recognize the red flags.
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Um, okay.
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It's escalating.
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Names are being called, um, stonewalling.
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I don't wanna talk to you.
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Contempt, defensiveness.
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The things that John Gottman talked about.
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Yeah.
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In, uh, the seven principles of making marriage work.
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It's like, oh, those are, when that happens, it's like weevils in the oatmeal.
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You don't wanna keep going.
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So being mindful if it's escalating and it's not working out, yeah.
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That would be a sign.
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We're off track and he normalizes it.
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We're gonna get off track it.
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I'll use myself as a Guinea pig.
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I work with a lot of couples, but he's my own couple.
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I can tell when Michaels does something and my blood pressure goes up right there, um, he said something and I'm activated.
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I'm now offline my choice.
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Especially having read this book and, and learning from it and being reminded, we need to be reminded of these things cuz we don't get reminded enough in our culture that we can get activated and it look like high blood pressure and, you
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Know, headaches, clenched
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Fists and headaches and deep hurt pain and wanting to run sleep apnea.
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Sleep apnea.
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And in the moment, just like with my body's going through, I feel defensive.
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I feel contempt.
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I, I feel criticized.
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So what I do instead is I soften and take a breath.
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And now my adult, when I take a breath like Buddhas brain, the book Mark Hansen's book mm-hmm.
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, I immediately signal to my heart that I'm not being chased by crocodiles.
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When I signal to my heart that I'm not being chased by crocodiles, my amygdala stopped sending messages to my brain that I am in deep danger and I am thinking from my limbic system, my emotional brain, which then allows my brain to tell me I'm safe, which allows my adrenals to calm down and stop pumping adrenaline so that I wanna fight, flight, fix, or freeze as well.
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Yeah.
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And faw make it all better.
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So when I become aware of that, I can stop and soften.
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And then when I take the breath and I take a step back, okay.
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Really, sometimes I'll literally take a step back and then my, I wait for my adult and because I've preloaded some of these thoughts, I'll say he's activated or he's not activated and I'm activated.
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I can literally assess who's activated.
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If he's activated, like he's yelled at me the other day, you're being so impatient,, you're just not patient.
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And because I had read Terry's book, I said, I took a breath and I thought he could be righted instead of going into my typically regressed defense posture.
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I just looked at him and I said, you're right.
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And he looked at me like, what?
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.
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I'm not used to that.
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And, and I thought I would rather be free to quote my teacher rom doss than write.
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Yeah.
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I was annoying.
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I couldn't see how annoying I was just smashing into things, trying to get out of the house and forgetting half the things I was, I was running out this, he was right.
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And then I create room for his point of view.
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Okay.
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I'm not as a woman, I was raised in the time era feminism, which says the guy is trying to crush you.
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And I learned to be harsh.
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And one of the things that Terry says about harshness, we all received it as children.
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Almost all of us did.
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That there's no redeeming value in being harsh.
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So I'm looking at that too as a major principle.
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Could I have learned as a child without someone yelling at me, calling me a name, being impatient with me being harsh.
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Being harsh.
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So stop, drop and roll.
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And I just let go of it.
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I just let go.
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He said I was impatient, so what?
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And I just kind of riffed on it and he kind of went, yeah, I'd like you to really remember your phone this time.
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You know, because you come up the stairs, you leave it nine times outta 10.
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I'm like, you know, you're right.
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I do.
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And honestly, Brenda, it felt like just, it just rolled off my shoulders.
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You don't have to carry it.
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I don't have to.
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I don't have to be.
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Right.
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What a burden.
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And that's the ego burden.
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Yeah.
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It's just like saying you carry all this burden, all this weight you have to maintain the sense of, um, protection and being Right.
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This is what, what Terry's list of what the adaptive child.
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Go
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Ahead.
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Well I was just thinking you've been having a very tight, high dense load of patients.
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Yes.
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And and it's interesting that you are impatient when you are like full of patients.
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.
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That's my youngest as in
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Part contact as a therapist.
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Yeah.
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I sit with this my wise adult.
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Yeah.
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My wise adult breathes.
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Takes time, does a lot of listening.
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Mm-hmm.
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enters the stream, uh, in a very different way.
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And that's really important for all of us to be aware of.
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I have my professional self and most of my clients are like that.
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They do fine.
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They're very successful people.
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Yeah.
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They know how to work with their clients.
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They know how to work in their businesses and run things.
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It's when we get home that we regress because I'm gonna take off that mask and put it on this door and I'm gonna be the child now.
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Yeah.
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And you're gonna take, you're gonna take care of me.
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So what does Terry say that what Terry's
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Talking about the adaptive child.
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The what I've learned to be when I'm activated, this is how the brain goes black and white versus nuanced.
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Perfectionistic versus realistic.
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Relentless versus forgiving.
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Like, I'm gonna fight you tooth and nail to the ground.
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I learned to do that with two older brothers who teased me.
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I just get in there like a wolverine versus forgiving.
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Rigid versus flexible.
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Like maybe part of what he's saying is right.
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Mm-hmm.
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and I benefit from it.
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Harsh versus warm.
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Think how much distance there is.
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Mm-hmm.
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between the two.
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Maybe
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He cares about me.
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See my activated brain would never think that Michael cared about me.
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He's been critical of me.
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Yeah.
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Like my brothers were critical to me.
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Yeah.
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And when I really, I, I just wanna do a commercial for maybe your parents didn't abuse you, but your siblings might have or mm-hmm.
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somebody else in the family.
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Um, hard versus yielding.
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Like if I'm just staying on this place versus yielding, yield the position that's an, an adult certain versus humble.
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So much healing happens with humility.
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When the ego burden is literally heavy when I go, I can be wrong, I can be late, I can be ignorant of something and I still have a right to exist
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And it's all okay.
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I mean, you may not wanna perpetuate it, but the idea is that the, I think you said the key word is I could benefit from this.
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I could benefit, and this is a hint for all of us.
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If I'm tight in my body, the somatic, the soma mm-hmm.
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, I am going to be black and white.
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Perfectionist, relentless, rigid, harsh, hard, certain.
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So I need to take that breath.
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Yeah.
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I need to take a step back, maybe go wash my hands, listen to the podcast, listen, read the book.
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There's lots of resources.
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But I'm really down the rabbit hole with Terry cuz he's really, he's a seasoned therapist like I am.
00:15:16.539 --> 00:15:27.080
And to know that I can listen with love and interest, uh, David d Burn's work in the five secrets of effective communication.
00:15:27.100 --> 00:15:30.960
It begins with I can validate what the other person is experiencing.
00:15:31.580 --> 00:15:32.799
If I were you, I'd be you.
00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:34.159
I can ask questions about it.
00:15:35.019 --> 00:15:37.080
Nobody thinks to do that when you're activated.
00:15:37.081 --> 00:15:39.799
Like tell me more about my impatience and how it's upsetting.
00:15:40.019 --> 00:15:40.559
I'm curious.
00:15:41.750 --> 00:15:42.039
Yeah.
00:15:42.139 --> 00:15:54.629
And the idea of those questions, a sense of curiosity feels like that's the language of prefacing us versus me.
00:15:55.529 --> 00:15:55.750
Yes.
00:15:55.990 --> 00:16:01.870
Cuz once I bring you in, you have your own way of seeing the world that could benefit me.
00:16:02.190 --> 00:16:02.190
Yeah.
00:16:02.450 --> 00:16:04.309
And you are alone in it.
00:16:05.009 --> 00:16:16.830
And if I join you, even if you're like with people who have Alzheimer's or any kind of dementia, they, they don't recommend saying there's no flying monkeys on the wall or you know, or Uncle Burt is not standing there.
00:16:16.899 --> 00:16:18.509
It's like, what is Uncle Burt saying?
00:16:18.940 --> 00:16:22.629
What that, what I'm experiencing at that moment is my reality.
00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:23.070
Right.
00:16:23.169 --> 00:16:28.590
If you join me in it with love and patience and empathy for that's what I'm experiencing.
00:16:30.090 --> 00:16:37.899
So the idea of why it's attracting you, like the idea of it's grabbed you.
00:16:38.700 --> 00:16:41.659
Um, you find a lot of validity as as I do as well.
00:16:41.660 --> 00:16:42.019
Mm-hmm.
00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:44.980
, how is this living?
00:16:45.250 --> 00:16:50.059
Like how can you apply this, um, say with children or, um,
00:16:50.740 --> 00:16:50.740
Yeah.
00:16:51.100 --> 00:16:52.220
You know, with within the family.
00:16:52.730 --> 00:16:53.019
Well,
00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:55.980
We don't need to be harsh with our kids.
00:16:56.679 --> 00:16:58.259
We can ask them what they're going through.
00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:00.220
We can validate their experience.
00:17:00.620 --> 00:17:00.620
Mm-hmm.
00:17:00.700 --> 00:17:03.460
if they come home and say, I hate my teacher.
00:17:04.740 --> 00:17:07.299
Um, rather than, oh, your teacher, I met her back to school.
00:17:07.579 --> 00:17:07.858
I'm back to school.
00:17:08.049 --> 00:17:08.779
They're just fine
00:17:09.180 --> 00:17:09.180
Know.
00:17:09.181 --> 00:17:09.579
Dismissing.
00:17:09.580 --> 00:17:09.940
Dismissing.
00:17:09.940 --> 00:17:10.059
Yeah.
00:17:10.060 --> 00:17:11.180
I wanna drop out soccer.
00:17:11.380 --> 00:17:14.220
A lot of my kids say, uh, the parents are like, they can't drop outta soccer.
00:17:14.700 --> 00:17:14.940
Invest in it.
00:17:14.941 --> 00:17:15.940
You know, they're gonna be team player.
00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:17.980
Ask'em what they're going through.
00:17:17.990 --> 00:17:19.900
Don't, you're not in it to win it.
00:17:19.970 --> 00:17:20.259
Yeah.
00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:21.420
You're gonna join him.
00:17:21.858 --> 00:17:24.140
I feel tired, I don't wanna go to practice tonight.
00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:26.900
Ask more questions.
00:17:26.901 --> 00:17:27.858
What's it like for you?
00:17:27.859 --> 00:17:28.940
Going to practice every night.
00:17:29.259 --> 00:17:29.259
Mm-hmm.
00:17:30.539 --> 00:17:31.980
Uh, I can't get my work done.
00:17:31.980 --> 00:17:33.099
That's gotta be difficult.
00:17:33.700 --> 00:17:36.140
I don't have time to be, you know, just to relax.
00:17:36.690 --> 00:17:41.140
Well that's gotta be hard and inquire many times when you choir.
00:17:41.819 --> 00:17:44.059
Cuz generally they hire me to inquire gently.
00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:48.259
The kid will say, I'll say, are you saying Cause I'll ask a question.
00:17:48.368 --> 00:17:50.480
Does that mean you don't wanna play soccer anywhere?
00:17:51.220 --> 00:17:51.440
No.
00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:52.480
I, I like soccer.
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:55.920
I just don't wanna be doing league soccer.
00:17:56.019 --> 00:17:57.400
I'd rather just play at the school.
00:17:57.460 --> 00:17:57.880
Mm-hmm.
00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:03.400
, I like soccer or I'd like to take this season off cuz I really like to read.
00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:11.970
So the idea of valuing what's going on in one's life, not dismissing it well,
00:18:12.089 --> 00:18:16.809
He so frightened his parents that if they get off the beaten track, we brutalize them.
00:18:17.049 --> 00:18:17.049
Mm.
00:18:17.430 --> 00:18:28.450
And so often what we're here to do and is nurture our children, guide them at in a conversation that is non-critical and empathic.
00:18:29.990 --> 00:18:34.529
And then set healthy limits from that place with them
00:18:35.569 --> 00:18:35.769
Together.
00:18:36.150 --> 00:18:43.130
And not what, what you're explaining is feeding the back line.
00:18:43.368 --> 00:18:51.769
In my, my dialogue about when we teach our children, when we show by modeling that we dismiss our children mm-hmm.
00:18:51.849 --> 00:18:59.608
as kids, they learn that their real thoughts, their ideas, who they are, their needs are dismissed.
00:19:00.049 --> 00:19:00.049
Mm-hmm.
00:19:00.130 --> 00:19:00.130
.
00:19:00.529 --> 00:19:02.930
And this is what you do with these parts of our life.
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:06.809
When we have a need, my parent dismissed it mm-hmm.
00:19:06.890 --> 00:19:08.849
, um, or not fully engaged with it mm-hmm.
00:19:08.930 --> 00:19:11.690
, I was encouraged to give it up for their needs.
00:19:12.368 --> 00:19:12.809
Um mm-hmm.
00:19:12.890 --> 00:19:12.890
.
00:19:13.150 --> 00:19:32.009
So as you mature, you take that conditioning with you so that when you're older and working in, in a profession or in a relationship, um, you're, you've learned to rely on the, the facility within yourself to dismiss your needs.
00:19:32.549 --> 00:19:32.769
Yes.
00:19:33.430 --> 00:19:34.809
And not even to know their needs.
00:19:35.049 --> 00:19:35.049
Yeah.
00:19:35.050 --> 00:19:38.608
Because in many cases where children are helicoptered Yeah.
00:19:39.190 --> 00:19:43.690
And essentially rewarded for being better than everybody.
00:19:43.750 --> 00:19:44.170
Mm-hmm.
00:19:44.210 --> 00:19:48.130
, um, again, that, that sense of inflation.
00:19:48.890 --> 00:19:53.089
I see kids who are suicidal because they're really good at what they do.
00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:55.769
They're awesome students, they're awesome athletes.
00:19:56.549 --> 00:20:04.130
And they are saturated with this idea that if they couldn't do those things, it'd be unlovable.
00:20:04.868 --> 00:20:11.009
So they either become bullies to themselves or they, they achieve these heights and bullied.
00:20:11.010 --> 00:20:12.490
They grew up to be bullies to their children.
00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:12.890
Yeah.
00:20:13.358 --> 00:20:15.690
Only love these es these elevated parts
00:20:16.868 --> 00:20:21.970
As well as all the somatic issues that mature by 40 50.
00:20:22.490 --> 00:20:26.769
Or sometimes they erupt when we're in our fifties, like irritable bowel or mm-hmm.
00:20:26.849 --> 00:20:29.608
, um, the immune autoimmune, things like that.
00:20:29.930 --> 00:20:30.049
I
00:20:30.049 --> 00:20:31.289
See our kids checking out.
00:20:31.650 --> 00:20:31.650
Yeah.
00:20:31.651 --> 00:20:33.890
When they're overly helicopter, they get to an age.
00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:38.289
It's usually adolescents, uh, when they're gonna rebel and they find something to numb.
00:20:39.470 --> 00:20:45.529
So they'll find, uh, oh my gosh, everything, um, alcohol, pot, you name it.
00:20:45.530 --> 00:20:55.759
They'll take grandma's pills, they'll take, take anything, but they will drop out completely because there's no place for them to have their own thoughts except the thoughts of they have their, the parents' thoughts.
00:20:55.819 --> 00:21:00.039
And like bronze says, your children are, they really have their own thoughts.
00:21:00.040 --> 00:21:00.880
They come from tomorrow.
00:21:00.980 --> 00:21:05.079
And we seem to be so frightened of their thoughts if we create room.
00:21:05.319 --> 00:21:11.319
I remember with my son Zack, he was quite a different thinker and I had to stand back when he'd say, I don't see why I actually have to go to college.
00:21:11.320 --> 00:21:12.358
What's this college thing?
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:13.000
It's such a drive.
00:21:13.539 --> 00:21:16.880
And I would have these long conversations where I'd listen to him.
00:21:16.881 --> 00:21:18.799
Like, what else would you be thinking with?
00:21:18.800 --> 00:21:20.118
Like, tell me your thoughts about it.
00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:20.279
Yeah.
00:21:20.280 --> 00:21:22.118
He says, well, I can learn on my own.
00:21:23.150 --> 00:21:27.210
And we went way down the rabbit hole with what interested him.
00:21:27.211 --> 00:21:30.608
And it was quite frightening because he was saying things that
00:21:30.890 --> 00:21:31.490
Frightening for you,
00:21:32.569 --> 00:21:33.130
Frightening for me.
00:21:33.289 --> 00:21:36.970
Cuz he said, I don't see why I can't just live in nature and read books.
00:21:37.868 --> 00:21:40.809
And I'm thinking he, that's, don't we call that houseless homeless?
00:21:41.390 --> 00:21:54.608
And I'm having all these fantasies, but I, I learned to stay with him because he would, he was such a strong kid in this, um, he would just shut down and do what he wanted to do anyway, so I went along for the ride and I found that he had beautiful thoughts.
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:55.009
Yeah.
00:21:55.390 --> 00:21:59.410
And I just ask him questions like, so if you live out in nature, where would you live?
00:22:00.269 --> 00:22:04.450
And have you looked into shelters and you didn't go to university?
00:22:04.608 --> 00:22:06.410
And what if you changed your mind, how would you go about it?
00:22:06.608 --> 00:22:06.930
Like with that?
00:22:07.190 --> 00:22:12.289
So it can lead to these beautiful, brave conversations that are nuanced.
00:22:12.809 --> 00:22:14.769
I gotta tell you that, that's how I lived my life.
00:22:15.608 --> 00:22:16.970
Ah, like zacharia
00:22:17.289 --> 00:22:17.289
.
00:22:17.290 --> 00:22:17.450
Yeah.
00:22:17.730 --> 00:22:18.009
I did.
00:22:18.170 --> 00:22:20.329
I didn't go to college until I was 40.
00:22:20.789 --> 00:22:21.009
See?
00:22:21.069 --> 00:22:21.569
And you're
00:22:21.569 --> 00:22:21.730
Here.
00:22:22.029 --> 00:22:22.410
I'm here.
00:22:23.069 --> 00:22:27.250
And I lived out in nature and I read the books and I, you know.
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:27.970
Yeah.
00:22:28.349 --> 00:22:31.490
So, um, it is possible.
00:22:31.809 --> 00:22:32.130
You see, I
00:22:32.210 --> 00:22:33.250
Think we need to see those things.
00:22:33.368 --> 00:22:38.089
I think there's such a tight narrative in the patriarchal view that we must get ahead of everybody.
00:22:38.608 --> 00:22:38.608
Yeah.
00:22:39.049 --> 00:22:44.849
I, I just paid for Zach to go get a bachelor's degree for eight years while he took every elective and explored his musical career.
00:22:45.269 --> 00:22:52.289
So we ended up getting some of that living up in Humboldt County and really got to explore his wild sides, which was great.
00:22:52.490 --> 00:22:52.569
.
00:22:52.690 --> 00:22:53.049
I love it.
00:22:53.059 --> 00:22:55.170
Until he was 40 and then he became a psychotherapist.
00:22:55.210 --> 00:22:55.769
I know, me too.
00:22:56.630 --> 00:22:57.730
You guys gotta talk.
00:22:58.730 --> 00:23:21.930
Um, the little attention or the atten the adjunctive, I should say, um, outcome of this conversation is in my larger work of, um, working with people, um, in how, how how they abdicate their own self-worth Yeah.
00:23:22.269 --> 00:23:45.170
Is many, most of us have all been taught from our, our parenting, you know, our primary caregivers, our, our school, our society, the concentric circles, um, to dismiss that inner work that what you've just been des describing, and it leaves this imbalance, but it does create this need for validation.
00:23:45.500 --> 00:23:47.319
But we don't give it to ourselves.
00:23:47.460 --> 00:23:50.319
We look for it outward and we crave it.
00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:50.599
Mm-hmm.
00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:52.920
, we act because we don't own it ourselves.
00:23:53.099 --> 00:24:05.079
We haven't been able to, uh, we haven't been val validated, we haven't been encouraged to believe and, and value who we are and what we say and how we wanna do things.
00:24:05.180 --> 00:24:10.559
And we're having all of these discordant, you know, pressures saying, no, do it this way.
00:24:11.299 --> 00:24:18.759
So when we're older, we tend to not have that stealthiness inside and that sense of belief.
00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:24.160
And we do abdicate and we, but we still have the same appetite.
00:24:24.380 --> 00:24:28.480
But instead of self-fulfilling it, we search for the outward.
00:24:28.700 --> 00:24:31.839
We, we go outside to validate mm-hmm.
00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:31.920
.
00:24:31.980 --> 00:24:44.960
And that's where we hook up with a lot of issues that allow us to experience these things to then create discordants and, and heartache and grief to come back eventually to that line of self-care.
00:24:45.349 --> 00:25:02.000
Because we, we, we travel all those places, all those positions outward, and we, we get those, uh, those, those attendant lovers that, that, um, can build us up and suckers dry because we don't know we have an experience from within ourselves.
00:25:02.358 --> 00:25:02.358
Mm-hmm.
00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:04.960
what that looks like and feels like, you know?
00:25:05.118 --> 00:25:05.118
Yeah.
00:25:05.358 --> 00:25:06.720
We, we we need the outer.
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:07.079
I
00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:11.200
Love when I'm watching you because what you're doing is your hands are coming to your heart mm-hmm.
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:11.279
.
00:25:11.940 --> 00:25:18.279
And they're saying when you know, when you're in, when you're going in and you're, you know what you need and you desire and then your hands go out.
00:25:19.059 --> 00:25:21.720
And so that is the, I call that the point of power.
00:25:21.868 --> 00:25:26.519
When I take the point of power away from what is heartfelt Yeah.
00:25:26.539 --> 00:25:32.118
And close to me and I place it out in you, uh, then I'm gonna be disappointed.
00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:32.440
Absolutely.
00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:33.960
Because I just absolutely gave you my passion.
00:25:34.670 --> 00:25:37.519
It's like Zach, well quote one last time before we're done.
00:25:37.779 --> 00:25:46.039
He said to me when I bought him the last set of oil paints and he'd given up painting for music and he said, if you love painting so much, why don't you do it?
00:25:46.059 --> 00:25:46.480
Mm-hmm.
00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:54.160
, which I started because I realized I wanted a son who was an artist, but I did not, or at least when he showed an interest in art, I thought that was fabulous.
00:25:55.059 --> 00:25:57.118
And when he gave it up, I was heartsick.
00:25:57.618 --> 00:25:59.759
And when my son handed it back to me, yeah.
00:26:00.220 --> 00:26:02.680
It first I was insulted and then I was invited.
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:05.759
I stopped arguing in a harsh, rigid way.
00:26:05.760 --> 00:26:09.839
Became more yielding my wise adult said, I think my kid just taught me something.
00:26:09.910 --> 00:26:10.200
Yeah.
00:26:11.069 --> 00:26:16.079
I've denied myself the artist within, which is the name of our next talk We're gonna get to.
00:26:16.289 --> 00:26:17.358
Thank you so much, Deborah.
00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:17.680
All right.
00:26:17.681 --> 00:26:18.279
Thank you Brenda.
00:26:24.380 --> 00:26:30.160
And that concludes this week's episode of the Soul Path Sessions podcast with Deborah Mights Pearson and Brenda Littleton.
00:26:30.819 --> 00:26:39.358
If you'd like to hear more about living a more soulful life, please subscribe to our channel on your favorite podcast app and be sure to check out the show notes and links below.
00:26:40.059 --> 00:26:47.000
For more information from Deborah, visit soul path sessions.com and for brenda brenda littleton com.
00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:50.160
Thank you for listening and remember to follow your soul.
00:00:09.849 --> 00:00:14.250
Welcome to the Soul Path Sessions podcast with Deborah Minds Pearson and Brenda Littleton.
00:00:14.630 --> 00:00:18.609
Brenda is an educator and counselor rooted in YY and Ecopsychology.
00:00:19.309 --> 00:00:24.489
She helps her clients understand the importance of the mind, body, spirit, and earth relationship for healing.
00:00:25.530 --> 00:00:35.408
Deborah is a licensed psychotherapist and has been trained in traditional and sacred psychology, exploring from the ground up what makes our human experience meaningful, wholesome, and enlightening.
00:00:36.408 --> 00:00:46.850
Deborah and Brenda invite you to accompany them on a soul path journey as they explore the possibilities of living a more soulful life as therapists, seekers, and lovers of fate.
00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:53.408
Welcome back to SOPA Sessions.
00:00:54.030 --> 00:00:55.170
I'm Deborah Minds Pearson.
00:00:55.189 --> 00:01:11.250
I'm here with my friend and fellow therapist, Brenda Littleton, and today we're gonna be looking at the soul of our relationships and how to get along in our relationships, especially with those people we might share a home with and call family.
00:01:11.810 --> 00:01:11.810
Mm-hmm.
00:01:11.890 --> 00:01:14.209
or anybody that's in our intimate space.
00:01:15.430 --> 00:01:16.849
So that's what I'm interested in.
00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:17.290
Well,
00:01:17.290 --> 00:01:19.250
You've been reading Terry Real?
00:01:19.670 --> 00:01:19.890
Yes.
00:01:20.250 --> 00:01:21.329
Or real, I guess Real,
00:01:21.609 --> 00:01:21.609
Real.
00:01:21.930 --> 00:01:22.090
Terry Real.
00:01:22.409 --> 00:01:22.569
He's mm-hmm.
00:01:22.569 --> 00:01:23.290
About our age.
00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:24.209
He's in his sixties.
00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:24.689
Okay.
00:01:25.670 --> 00:01:32.609
And, um, I know that his work has interested you and there's a few ideas that I'd love to know more about.
00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:33.049
Okay.
00:01:33.069 --> 00:01:40.810
And I know that you're in the be in the, in initiatory, um, molding it over and yet it, it, it really has seeped and saturated you.
00:01:40.870 --> 00:01:41.090
Yes.
00:01:41.109 --> 00:01:51.329
So, while we may not be doing a treaty on Terry r we are going to investigate with respect to his work with, in being with relationship or in relationship.
00:01:51.569 --> 00:01:51.569
Yes.
00:01:51.570 --> 00:01:59.530
So, I love to hear more about the idea of, um, the sense of not being Right.
00:01:59.689 --> 00:02:01.409
I think you, you had some Yeah.
00:02:01.689 --> 00:02:11.849
So, so, so, so much of what he talks about is when we enter a relationship with another human being, we are gonna bring our family of origin right into it.
00:02:11.850 --> 00:02:14.050
And the way we defended ourselves and, and stayed.
00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:14.370
Okay.
00:02:14.371 --> 00:02:16.090
Which was our last podcast.
00:02:16.689 --> 00:02:16.689
Mm-hmm.
00:02:16.770 --> 00:02:16.770
.
00:02:17.770 --> 00:02:24.849
Um, and we have these, um, we, we marry somebody or we're with in a intimate relationship, we're in fantasy.
00:02:26.069 --> 00:02:31.050
And the minute we hit reality, they show us, um, that they think differently than us.
00:02:31.389 --> 00:02:40.650
And then we deal with that in a way that, uh, can be really brutal to, uh, our, our adrenaline.
00:02:40.909 --> 00:02:42.490
And we tend to go into automatic behavior.
00:02:42.620 --> 00:02:42.969
Right.
00:02:43.500 --> 00:02:48.009
Hence why you and I have a job working with, with family systems.
00:02:48.750 --> 00:02:52.889
And so one of the first questions he, he says, I'm not so interested in the problem.
00:02:53.590 --> 00:02:58.810
I'm interested in where that person is inside.
00:02:59.310 --> 00:03:01.719
Like, how are they hooked up?
00:03:02.030 --> 00:03:16.520
Because if I'm talking to a couple and that person's activated and they're in the limbic or emotional center of their brain, acting out childhood trauma, it doesn't matter what topic we're on, it's going to be at a much reg, more regressed place.
00:03:16.580 --> 00:03:19.919
And that's typically what we see in our own relationships.
00:03:19.979 --> 00:03:23.439
And as therapists, we see the topic could be anything.
00:03:23.740 --> 00:03:35.039
It could be the holidays, it could be how you spend money, but if I'm doing it from a place of woundedness, and if I'm doing it from a place of regression, we're gonna have the same old argument again and again and again.
00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:39.000
So he points that out, like, where are you coming from?
00:03:39.500 --> 00:03:47.800
His supposition is, if I'm coming from my prefrontal cortex, my wise adult logic center, I have the capacity to be the following.
00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:48.800
I love this list.
00:03:50.629 --> 00:03:59.039
Nuanced, wise, realistic, forgiving, flexible, warm, yielding, and humble.
00:04:00.860 --> 00:04:02.159
That's the wise adult folks.
00:04:02.789 --> 00:04:03.080
Okay.
00:04:03.250 --> 00:04:03.599
Where
00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:04.240
Does that live?
00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:04.520
?
00:04:04.550 --> 00:04:04.840
Well,
00:04:05.349 --> 00:04:06.840
That lives in the prefrontal cortex.
00:04:06.841 --> 00:04:07.120
Okay.
00:04:07.229 --> 00:04:13.159
It's the ability to weigh and measure, to hold one more than one idea to use discernment.
00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:13.879
Mm-hmm.
00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:20.930
to manage emotions, to be aware of the feelings of others, as well as my own feelings.
00:04:20.930 --> 00:04:25.088
That's really what's distinguishes adults from children, the wise adult.
00:04:25.250 --> 00:04:28.569
I can imagine that I'm having an experience and you're having one too.
00:04:29.110 --> 00:04:32.490
So it's, um, a sense of generosity and compassion mm-hmm.
00:04:32.569 --> 00:04:40.370
and having a sense of belief that, um, you may be in a contrary conversation and you're not going to lose yourself.
00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:41.290
Yeah.
00:04:41.670 --> 00:04:45.209
And this idea of the, the guilty is charged.
00:04:45.211 --> 00:04:54.810
Winning is a big, um, strategy that we tend to get into with other people, and it's really not efficient.
00:04:55.269 --> 00:04:59.410
His focus has largely been on working with men, um, and couples.
00:04:59.709 --> 00:05:06.250
And in our culture, in the patriarchal culture, it's about being top dog winning, um, keeping the ego safe.
00:05:07.149 --> 00:05:13.250
And it's not about cooperating, it's aga about me first and getting outta there unscathed.
00:05:13.250 --> 00:05:18.129
And so he talks about the you and me culture versus the us the title of his book culture.
00:05:18.790 --> 00:05:31.410
And he appeals to the sensibilities of a lot of busy people when he says, uh, practicing nuanced, realistic, forgiving, flexible, warm, yielding and humble states of mind is more efficient
00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:33.560
In the, in the long run.
00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:34.800
The short term in the long run.
00:05:34.829 --> 00:05:35.120
Yeah.
00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:35.439
Right.
00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:37.120
Because for the relationship ex.
00:05:37.660 --> 00:05:38.278
Yes, exactly.
00:05:38.300 --> 00:05:43.278
So you're coming into the, the idea I'm a, um, and, and non-violent communication.
00:05:43.420 --> 00:05:52.040
I'm a facilitator, and the idea is that you both come in with the intention of love and compassion and working things out mm-hmm.
00:05:52.079 --> 00:05:53.439
as opposed to being Right.
00:05:53.440 --> 00:05:56.160
Regardless of what it, you know, what it is that we're gonna go through.
00:05:56.588 --> 00:05:56.879
Yeah.
00:05:56.899 --> 00:05:57.759
So very different
00:05:58.480 --> 00:05:58.480
Direction.
00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:02.439
Well, you know, we start off with that idea, but then there's a, a button that's pushed.
00:06:02.670 --> 00:06:02.959
Okay.
00:06:03.500 --> 00:06:08.480
And our reflexes, we don't even get a chance to think.
00:06:08.838 --> 00:06:08.838
Yeah.
00:06:09.139 --> 00:06:13.199
We go right into how we protected ourself from assault.
00:06:13.220 --> 00:06:13.639
Mm-hmm.
00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:22.278
, I mean, if my frightened self is going to take over and you're now gonna be the enemy, you're gonna be the other.
00:06:22.310 --> 00:06:23.639
It's not gonna be about us.
00:06:24.259 --> 00:06:25.920
And I wouldn't even consider that.
00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:28.680
Maybe you are regressed too.
00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:31.720
Maybe your, you've gone offline, maybe you've had a hard day.
00:06:31.721 --> 00:06:32.120
Mm-hmm.
00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:35.720
, maybe something work didn't happen at work, or you're not feeling well.
00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:49.319
You see, children can't take that perspective unless they've been trained in it to know that parents are separate from themselves and have their a bad day and maybe, uh, aren't reflecting their best selves unless a parent tells'em that.
00:06:49.660 --> 00:06:55.838
So learning how to take the other person's perspective, or at least create space for it, is a huge breakthrough.
00:06:56.278 --> 00:06:56.278
Yeah.
00:06:56.519 --> 00:07:10.120
I mean, we've taught active listening for years as therapists, but what he's really saying, it doesn't matter if you're creating room for the, the patient conversation of parroting what your partner said and reframing, reframing it.
00:07:10.660 --> 00:07:13.279
If you're activated, you can throw it out the windows.
00:07:13.300 --> 00:07:16.399
You're gonna say like, looks like you're feeling sorry for yourself.
00:07:16.459 --> 00:07:17.120
Am I right?
00:07:17.139 --> 00:07:19.759
You know, the active listening isn't gonna work.
00:07:20.180 --> 00:07:31.680
So it's much more a conversation about me and you trying to become us and the awareness that I've gotta get back online and be very generous.
00:07:32.259 --> 00:07:42.560
So how does one become, um, observant of when, when they're in the, the freeway of emotion of being activated?
00:07:42.910 --> 00:07:44.720
Like how, where are the stops?
00:07:44.721 --> 00:07:50.800
Where is where is, like I say with the metaphor, the freeway, where are the off-ramps to be able to get off that track?
00:07:50.949 --> 00:07:53.360
Well, one of them is to recognize the red flags.
00:07:53.879 --> 00:07:54.240
Um, okay.
00:07:54.470 --> 00:07:55.480
It's escalating.
00:07:55.889 --> 00:07:58.839
Names are being called, um, stonewalling.
00:07:58.879 --> 00:07:59.759
I don't wanna talk to you.
00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:02.120
Contempt, defensiveness.
00:08:02.259 --> 00:08:03.839
The things that John Gottman talked about.
00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:04.079
Yeah.
00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:07.240
In, uh, the seven principles of making marriage work.
00:08:07.350 --> 00:08:12.160
It's like, oh, those are, when that happens, it's like weevils in the oatmeal.
00:08:12.180 --> 00:08:13.319
You don't wanna keep going.
00:08:13.660 --> 00:08:17.639
So being mindful if it's escalating and it's not working out, yeah.
00:08:17.910 --> 00:08:18.600
That would be a sign.
00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:20.839
We're off track and he normalizes it.
00:08:20.841 --> 00:08:22.519
We're gonna get off track it.
00:08:22.521 --> 00:08:23.759
I'll use myself as a Guinea pig.
00:08:23.761 --> 00:08:26.319
I work with a lot of couples, but he's my own couple.
00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:35.580
I can tell when Michaels does something and my blood pressure goes up right there, um, he said something and I'm activated.
00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:37.419
I'm now offline my choice.
00:08:38.428 --> 00:08:50.940
Especially having read this book and, and learning from it and being reminded, we need to be reminded of these things cuz we don't get reminded enough in our culture that we can get activated and it look like high blood pressure and, you
00:08:50.940 --> 00:08:52.139
Know, headaches, clenched
00:08:52.139 --> 00:08:57.799
Fists and headaches and deep hurt pain and wanting to run sleep apnea.
00:08:57.928 --> 00:08:58.678
Sleep apnea.
00:08:58.860 --> 00:09:01.720
And in the moment, just like with my body's going through, I feel defensive.
00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:02.639
I feel contempt.
00:09:02.640 --> 00:09:03.639
I, I feel criticized.
00:09:03.980 --> 00:09:08.000
So what I do instead is I soften and take a breath.
00:09:09.500 --> 00:09:15.360
And now my adult, when I take a breath like Buddhas brain, the book Mark Hansen's book mm-hmm.
00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:19.480
, I immediately signal to my heart that I'm not being chased by crocodiles.
00:09:19.990 --> 00:09:45.159
When I signal to my heart that I'm not being chased by crocodiles, my amygdala stopped sending messages to my brain that I am in deep danger and I am thinking from my limbic system, my emotional brain, which then allows my brain to tell me I'm safe, which allows my adrenals to calm down and stop pumping adrenaline so that I wanna fight, flight, fix, or freeze as well.
00:09:45.470 --> 00:09:45.759
Yeah.
00:09:45.820 --> 00:09:48.240
And faw make it all better.
00:09:48.620 --> 00:09:51.639
So when I become aware of that, I can stop and soften.
00:09:51.700 --> 00:09:57.919
And then when I take the breath and I take a step back, okay.
00:09:57.921 --> 00:10:10.320
Really, sometimes I'll literally take a step back and then my, I wait for my adult and because I've preloaded some of these thoughts, I'll say he's activated or he's not activated and I'm activated.
00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:12.480
I can literally assess who's activated.
00:10:13.580 --> 00:10:20.399
If he's activated, like he's yelled at me the other day, you're being so impatient,, you're just not patient.
00:10:21.340 --> 00:10:31.639
And because I had read Terry's book, I said, I took a breath and I thought he could be righted instead of going into my typically regressed defense posture.
00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:33.919
I just looked at him and I said, you're right.
00:10:34.870 --> 00:10:36.129
And he looked at me like, what?
00:10:36.610 --> 00:10:37.090
.
00:10:37.509 --> 00:10:38.370
I'm not used to that.
00:10:39.470 --> 00:10:43.690
And, and I thought I would rather be free to quote my teacher rom doss than write.
00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:44.090
Yeah.
00:10:45.409 --> 00:10:46.610
I was annoying.
00:10:47.049 --> 00:10:54.690
I couldn't see how annoying I was just smashing into things, trying to get out of the house and forgetting half the things I was, I was running out this, he was right.
00:10:56.470 --> 00:10:58.928
And then I create room for his point of view.
00:10:59.639 --> 00:10:59.928
Okay.
00:11:00.549 --> 00:11:07.769
I'm not as a woman, I was raised in the time era feminism, which says the guy is trying to crush you.
00:11:08.308 --> 00:11:09.570
And I learned to be harsh.
00:11:10.909 --> 00:11:16.129
And one of the things that Terry says about harshness, we all received it as children.
00:11:16.149 --> 00:11:17.250
Almost all of us did.
00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:21.610
That there's no redeeming value in being harsh.
00:11:23.789 --> 00:11:26.370
So I'm looking at that too as a major principle.
00:11:26.370 --> 00:11:32.490
Could I have learned as a child without someone yelling at me, calling me a name, being impatient with me being harsh.
00:11:32.659 --> 00:11:33.289
Being harsh.
00:11:34.070 --> 00:11:35.928
So stop, drop and roll.
00:11:36.509 --> 00:11:37.570
And I just let go of it.
00:11:37.889 --> 00:11:38.769
I just let go.
00:11:39.230 --> 00:11:40.889
He said I was impatient, so what?
00:11:41.909 --> 00:11:46.730
And I just kind of riffed on it and he kind of went, yeah, I'd like you to really remember your phone this time.
00:11:47.428 --> 00:11:50.129
You know, because you come up the stairs, you leave it nine times outta 10.
00:11:50.190 --> 00:11:51.049
I'm like, you know, you're right.
00:11:52.009 --> 00:11:52.370
I do.
00:11:53.220 --> 00:11:56.440
And honestly, Brenda, it felt like just, it just rolled off my shoulders.
00:11:56.678 --> 00:11:57.480
You don't have to carry it.
00:11:58.159 --> 00:11:58.678
I don't have to.
00:11:58.840 --> 00:11:59.480
I don't have to be.
00:11:59.480 --> 00:11:59.799
Right.
00:11:59.830 --> 00:12:00.600
What a burden.
00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:02.120
And that's the ego burden.
00:12:02.230 --> 00:12:02.519
Yeah.
00:12:02.549 --> 00:12:09.159
It's just like saying you carry all this burden, all this weight you have to maintain the sense of, um, protection and being Right.
00:12:09.389 --> 00:12:12.480
This is what, what Terry's list of what the adaptive child.
00:12:12.940 --> 00:12:13.159
Go
00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:13.320
Ahead.
00:12:13.549 --> 00:12:19.879
Well I was just thinking you've been having a very tight, high dense load of patients.
00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:20.240
Yes.
00:12:20.379 --> 00:12:24.600
And and it's interesting that you are impatient when you are like full of patients.
00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:25.080
.
00:12:25.779 --> 00:12:27.000
That's my youngest as in
00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:28.558
Part contact as a therapist.
00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:28.919
Yeah.
00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:31.360
I sit with this my wise adult.
00:12:31.509 --> 00:12:31.799
Yeah.
00:12:32.259 --> 00:12:33.720
My wise adult breathes.
00:12:35.129 --> 00:12:37.600
Takes time, does a lot of listening.
00:12:37.820 --> 00:12:38.240
Mm-hmm.
00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:42.120
enters the stream, uh, in a very different way.
00:12:42.419 --> 00:12:45.360
And that's really important for all of us to be aware of.
00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:49.840
I have my professional self and most of my clients are like that.
00:12:50.230 --> 00:12:51.039
They do fine.
00:12:51.041 --> 00:12:52.320
They're very successful people.
00:12:52.470 --> 00:12:52.759
Yeah.
00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:54.759
They know how to work with their clients.
00:12:54.760 --> 00:12:57.200
They know how to work in their businesses and run things.
00:12:57.629 --> 00:13:06.039
It's when we get home that we regress because I'm gonna take off that mask and put it on this door and I'm gonna be the child now.
00:13:06.110 --> 00:13:06.399
Yeah.
00:13:06.779 --> 00:13:08.320
And you're gonna take, you're gonna take care of me.
00:13:09.419 --> 00:13:11.320
So what does Terry say that what Terry's
00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:12.639
Talking about the adaptive child.
00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:20.080
The what I've learned to be when I'm activated, this is how the brain goes black and white versus nuanced.
00:13:20.940 --> 00:13:23.919
Perfectionistic versus realistic.
00:13:25.250 --> 00:13:28.330
Relentless versus forgiving.
00:13:28.331 --> 00:13:30.610
Like, I'm gonna fight you tooth and nail to the ground.
00:13:30.928 --> 00:13:33.049
I learned to do that with two older brothers who teased me.
00:13:33.090 --> 00:13:35.808
I just get in there like a wolverine versus forgiving.
00:13:36.980 --> 00:13:39.169
Rigid versus flexible.
00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:42.169
Like maybe part of what he's saying is right.
00:13:42.490 --> 00:13:42.490
Mm-hmm.
00:13:42.570 --> 00:13:44.009
and I benefit from it.
00:13:44.899 --> 00:13:46.529
Harsh versus warm.
00:13:46.860 --> 00:13:48.330
Think how much distance there is.
00:13:48.331 --> 00:13:48.730
Mm-hmm.
00:13:48.769 --> 00:13:49.529
between the two.
00:13:49.530 --> 00:13:49.850
Maybe
00:13:49.870 --> 00:13:50.850
He cares about me.
00:13:51.269 --> 00:13:54.450
See my activated brain would never think that Michael cared about me.
00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:55.928
He's been critical of me.
00:13:56.129 --> 00:13:56.129
Yeah.
00:13:56.130 --> 00:13:57.928
Like my brothers were critical to me.
00:13:58.169 --> 00:13:58.169
Yeah.
00:13:58.509 --> 00:14:03.970
And when I really, I, I just wanna do a commercial for maybe your parents didn't abuse you, but your siblings might have or mm-hmm.
00:14:04.049 --> 00:14:05.330
somebody else in the family.
00:14:07.169 --> 00:14:09.850
Um, hard versus yielding.
00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:18.409
Like if I'm just staying on this place versus yielding, yield the position that's an, an adult certain versus humble.
00:14:20.230 --> 00:14:22.970
So much healing happens with humility.
00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:33.450
When the ego burden is literally heavy when I go, I can be wrong, I can be late, I can be ignorant of something and I still have a right to exist
00:14:34.070 --> 00:14:35.370
And it's all okay.
00:14:35.850 --> 00:14:43.450
I mean, you may not wanna perpetuate it, but the idea is that the, I think you said the key word is I could benefit from this.
00:14:43.730 --> 00:14:47.009
I could benefit, and this is a hint for all of us.
00:14:47.429 --> 00:14:52.240
If I'm tight in my body, the somatic, the soma mm-hmm.
00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:55.120
, I am going to be black and white.
00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:57.720
Perfectionist, relentless, rigid, harsh, hard, certain.
00:14:58.740 --> 00:14:59.799
So I need to take that breath.
00:14:59.909 --> 00:15:00.200
Yeah.
00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:09.679
I need to take a step back, maybe go wash my hands, listen to the podcast, listen, read the book.
00:15:09.681 --> 00:15:10.919
There's lots of resources.
00:15:10.921 --> 00:15:15.720
But I'm really down the rabbit hole with Terry cuz he's really, he's a seasoned therapist like I am.
00:15:16.539 --> 00:15:27.080
And to know that I can listen with love and interest, uh, David d Burn's work in the five secrets of effective communication.
00:15:27.100 --> 00:15:30.960
It begins with I can validate what the other person is experiencing.
00:15:31.580 --> 00:15:32.799
If I were you, I'd be you.
00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:34.159
I can ask questions about it.
00:15:35.019 --> 00:15:37.080
Nobody thinks to do that when you're activated.
00:15:37.081 --> 00:15:39.799
Like tell me more about my impatience and how it's upsetting.
00:15:40.019 --> 00:15:40.559
I'm curious.
00:15:41.750 --> 00:15:42.039
Yeah.
00:15:42.139 --> 00:15:54.629
And the idea of those questions, a sense of curiosity feels like that's the language of prefacing us versus me.
00:15:55.529 --> 00:15:55.750
Yes.
00:15:55.990 --> 00:16:01.870
Cuz once I bring you in, you have your own way of seeing the world that could benefit me.
00:16:02.190 --> 00:16:02.190
Yeah.
00:16:02.450 --> 00:16:04.309
And you are alone in it.
00:16:05.009 --> 00:16:16.830
And if I join you, even if you're like with people who have Alzheimer's or any kind of dementia, they, they don't recommend saying there's no flying monkeys on the wall or you know, or Uncle Burt is not standing there.
00:16:16.899 --> 00:16:18.509
It's like, what is Uncle Burt saying?
00:16:18.940 --> 00:16:22.629
What that, what I'm experiencing at that moment is my reality.
00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:23.070
Right.
00:16:23.169 --> 00:16:28.590
If you join me in it with love and patience and empathy for that's what I'm experiencing.
00:16:30.090 --> 00:16:37.899
So the idea of why it's attracting you, like the idea of it's grabbed you.
00:16:38.700 --> 00:16:41.659
Um, you find a lot of validity as as I do as well.
00:16:41.660 --> 00:16:42.019
Mm-hmm.
00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:44.980
, how is this living?
00:16:45.250 --> 00:16:50.059
Like how can you apply this, um, say with children or, um,
00:16:50.740 --> 00:16:50.740
Yeah.
00:16:51.100 --> 00:16:52.220
You know, with within the family.
00:16:52.730 --> 00:16:53.019
Well,
00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:55.980
We don't need to be harsh with our kids.
00:16:56.679 --> 00:16:58.259
We can ask them what they're going through.
00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:00.220
We can validate their experience.
00:17:00.620 --> 00:17:00.620
Mm-hmm.
00:17:00.700 --> 00:17:03.460
if they come home and say, I hate my teacher.
00:17:04.740 --> 00:17:07.299
Um, rather than, oh, your teacher, I met her back to school.
00:17:07.579 --> 00:17:07.858
I'm back to school.
00:17:08.049 --> 00:17:08.779
They're just fine
00:17:09.180 --> 00:17:09.180
Know.
00:17:09.181 --> 00:17:09.579
Dismissing.
00:17:09.580 --> 00:17:09.940
Dismissing.
00:17:09.940 --> 00:17:10.059
Yeah.
00:17:10.060 --> 00:17:11.180
I wanna drop out soccer.
00:17:11.380 --> 00:17:14.220
A lot of my kids say, uh, the parents are like, they can't drop outta soccer.
00:17:14.700 --> 00:17:14.940
Invest in it.
00:17:14.941 --> 00:17:15.940
You know, they're gonna be team player.
00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:17.980
Ask'em what they're going through.
00:17:17.990 --> 00:17:19.900
Don't, you're not in it to win it.
00:17:19.970 --> 00:17:20.259
Yeah.
00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:21.420
You're gonna join him.
00:17:21.858 --> 00:17:24.140
I feel tired, I don't wanna go to practice tonight.
00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:26.900
Ask more questions.
00:17:26.901 --> 00:17:27.858
What's it like for you?
00:17:27.859 --> 00:17:28.940
Going to practice every night.
00:17:29.259 --> 00:17:29.259
Mm-hmm.
00:17:30.539 --> 00:17:31.980
Uh, I can't get my work done.
00:17:31.980 --> 00:17:33.099
That's gotta be difficult.
00:17:33.700 --> 00:17:36.140
I don't have time to be, you know, just to relax.
00:17:36.690 --> 00:17:41.140
Well that's gotta be hard and inquire many times when you choir.
00:17:41.819 --> 00:17:44.059
Cuz generally they hire me to inquire gently.
00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:48.259
The kid will say, I'll say, are you saying Cause I'll ask a question.
00:17:48.368 --> 00:17:50.480
Does that mean you don't wanna play soccer anywhere?
00:17:51.220 --> 00:17:51.440
No.
00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:52.480
I, I like soccer.
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:55.920
I just don't wanna be doing league soccer.
00:17:56.019 --> 00:17:57.400
I'd rather just play at the school.
00:17:57.460 --> 00:17:57.880
Mm-hmm.
00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:03.400
, I like soccer or I'd like to take this season off cuz I really like to read.
00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:11.970
So the idea of valuing what's going on in one's life, not dismissing it well,
00:18:12.089 --> 00:18:16.809
He so frightened his parents that if they get off the beaten track, we brutalize them.
00:18:17.049 --> 00:18:17.049
Mm.
00:18:17.430 --> 00:18:28.450
And so often what we're here to do and is nurture our children, guide them at in a conversation that is non-critical and empathic.
00:18:29.990 --> 00:18:34.529
And then set healthy limits from that place with them
00:18:35.569 --> 00:18:35.769
Together.
00:18:36.150 --> 00:18:43.130
And not what, what you're explaining is feeding the back line.
00:18:43.368 --> 00:18:51.769
In my, my dialogue about when we teach our children, when we show by modeling that we dismiss our children mm-hmm.
00:18:51.849 --> 00:18:59.608
as kids, they learn that their real thoughts, their ideas, who they are, their needs are dismissed.
00:19:00.049 --> 00:19:00.049
Mm-hmm.
00:19:00.130 --> 00:19:00.130
.
00:19:00.529 --> 00:19:02.930
And this is what you do with these parts of our life.
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:06.809
When we have a need, my parent dismissed it mm-hmm.
00:19:06.890 --> 00:19:08.849
, um, or not fully engaged with it mm-hmm.
00:19:08.930 --> 00:19:11.690
, I was encouraged to give it up for their needs.
00:19:12.368 --> 00:19:12.809
Um mm-hmm.
00:19:12.890 --> 00:19:12.890
.
00:19:13.150 --> 00:19:32.009
So as you mature, you take that conditioning with you so that when you're older and working in, in a profession or in a relationship, um, you're, you've learned to rely on the, the facility within yourself to dismiss your needs.
00:19:32.549 --> 00:19:32.769
Yes.
00:19:33.430 --> 00:19:34.809
And not even to know their needs.
00:19:35.049 --> 00:19:35.049
Yeah.
00:19:35.050 --> 00:19:38.608
Because in many cases where children are helicoptered Yeah.
00:19:39.190 --> 00:19:43.690
And essentially rewarded for being better than everybody.
00:19:43.750 --> 00:19:44.170
Mm-hmm.
00:19:44.210 --> 00:19:48.130
, um, again, that, that sense of inflation.
00:19:48.890 --> 00:19:53.089
I see kids who are suicidal because they're really good at what they do.
00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:55.769
They're awesome students, they're awesome athletes.
00:19:56.549 --> 00:20:04.130
And they are saturated with this idea that if they couldn't do those things, it'd be unlovable.
00:20:04.868 --> 00:20:11.009
So they either become bullies to themselves or they, they achieve these heights and bullied.
00:20:11.010 --> 00:20:12.490
They grew up to be bullies to their children.
00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:12.890
Yeah.
00:20:13.358 --> 00:20:15.690
Only love these es these elevated parts
00:20:16.868 --> 00:20:21.970
As well as all the somatic issues that mature by 40 50.
00:20:22.490 --> 00:20:26.769
Or sometimes they erupt when we're in our fifties, like irritable bowel or mm-hmm.
00:20:26.849 --> 00:20:29.608
, um, the immune autoimmune, things like that.
00:20:29.930 --> 00:20:30.049
I
00:20:30.049 --> 00:20:31.289
See our kids checking out.
00:20:31.650 --> 00:20:31.650
Yeah.
00:20:31.651 --> 00:20:33.890
When they're overly helicopter, they get to an age.
00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:38.289
It's usually adolescents, uh, when they're gonna rebel and they find something to numb.
00:20:39.470 --> 00:20:45.529
So they'll find, uh, oh my gosh, everything, um, alcohol, pot, you name it.
00:20:45.530 --> 00:20:55.759
They'll take grandma's pills, they'll take, take anything, but they will drop out completely because there's no place for them to have their own thoughts except the thoughts of they have their, the parents' thoughts.
00:20:55.819 --> 00:21:00.039
And like bronze says, your children are, they really have their own thoughts.
00:21:00.040 --> 00:21:00.880
They come from tomorrow.
00:21:00.980 --> 00:21:05.079
And we seem to be so frightened of their thoughts if we create room.
00:21:05.319 --> 00:21:11.319
I remember with my son Zack, he was quite a different thinker and I had to stand back when he'd say, I don't see why I actually have to go to college.
00:21:11.320 --> 00:21:12.358
What's this college thing?
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:13.000
It's such a drive.
00:21:13.539 --> 00:21:16.880
And I would have these long conversations where I'd listen to him.
00:21:16.881 --> 00:21:18.799
Like, what else would you be thinking with?
00:21:18.800 --> 00:21:20.118
Like, tell me your thoughts about it.
00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:20.279
Yeah.
00:21:20.280 --> 00:21:22.118
He says, well, I can learn on my own.
00:21:23.150 --> 00:21:27.210
And we went way down the rabbit hole with what interested him.
00:21:27.211 --> 00:21:30.608
And it was quite frightening because he was saying things that
00:21:30.890 --> 00:21:31.490
Frightening for you,
00:21:32.569 --> 00:21:33.130
Frightening for me.
00:21:33.289 --> 00:21:36.970
Cuz he said, I don't see why I can't just live in nature and read books.
00:21:37.868 --> 00:21:40.809
And I'm thinking he, that's, don't we call that houseless homeless?
00:21:41.390 --> 00:21:54.608
And I'm having all these fantasies, but I, I learned to stay with him because he would, he was such a strong kid in this, um, he would just shut down and do what he wanted to do anyway, so I went along for the ride and I found that he had beautiful thoughts.
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:55.009
Yeah.
00:21:55.390 --> 00:21:59.410
And I just ask him questions like, so if you live out in nature, where would you live?
00:22:00.269 --> 00:22:04.450
And have you looked into shelters and you didn't go to university?
00:22:04.608 --> 00:22:06.410
And what if you changed your mind, how would you go about it?
00:22:06.608 --> 00:22:06.930
Like with that?
00:22:07.190 --> 00:22:12.289
So it can lead to these beautiful, brave conversations that are nuanced.
00:22:12.809 --> 00:22:14.769
I gotta tell you that, that's how I lived my life.
00:22:15.608 --> 00:22:16.970
Ah, like zacharia
00:22:17.289 --> 00:22:17.289
.
00:22:17.290 --> 00:22:17.450
Yeah.
00:22:17.730 --> 00:22:18.009
I did.
00:22:18.170 --> 00:22:20.329
I didn't go to college until I was 40.
00:22:20.789 --> 00:22:21.009
See?
00:22:21.069 --> 00:22:21.569
And you're
00:22:21.569 --> 00:22:21.730
Here.
00:22:22.029 --> 00:22:22.410
I'm here.
00:22:23.069 --> 00:22:27.250
And I lived out in nature and I read the books and I, you know.
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:27.970
Yeah.
00:22:28.349 --> 00:22:31.490
So, um, it is possible.
00:22:31.809 --> 00:22:32.130
You see, I
00:22:32.210 --> 00:22:33.250
Think we need to see those things.
00:22:33.368 --> 00:22:38.089
I think there's such a tight narrative in the patriarchal view that we must get ahead of everybody.
00:22:38.608 --> 00:22:38.608
Yeah.
00:22:39.049 --> 00:22:44.849
I, I just paid for Zach to go get a bachelor's degree for eight years while he took every elective and explored his musical career.
00:22:45.269 --> 00:22:52.289
So we ended up getting some of that living up in Humboldt County and really got to explore his wild sides, which was great.
00:22:52.490 --> 00:22:52.569
.
00:22:52.690 --> 00:22:53.049
I love it.
00:22:53.059 --> 00:22:55.170
Until he was 40 and then he became a psychotherapist.
00:22:55.210 --> 00:22:55.769
I know, me too.
00:22:56.630 --> 00:22:57.730
You guys gotta talk.
00:22:58.730 --> 00:23:21.930
Um, the little attention or the atten the adjunctive, I should say, um, outcome of this conversation is in my larger work of, um, working with people, um, in how, how how they abdicate their own self-worth Yeah.
00:23:22.269 --> 00:23:45.170
Is many, most of us have all been taught from our, our parenting, you know, our primary caregivers, our, our school, our society, the concentric circles, um, to dismiss that inner work that what you've just been des describing, and it leaves this imbalance, but it does create this need for validation.
00:23:45.500 --> 00:23:47.319
But we don't give it to ourselves.
00:23:47.460 --> 00:23:50.319
We look for it outward and we crave it.
00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:50.599
Mm-hmm.
00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:52.920
, we act because we don't own it ourselves.
00:23:53.099 --> 00:24:05.079
We haven't been able to, uh, we haven't been val validated, we haven't been encouraged to believe and, and value who we are and what we say and how we wanna do things.
00:24:05.180 --> 00:24:10.559
And we're having all of these discordant, you know, pressures saying, no, do it this way.
00:24:11.299 --> 00:24:18.759
So when we're older, we tend to not have that stealthiness inside and that sense of belief.
00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:24.160
And we do abdicate and we, but we still have the same appetite.
00:24:24.380 --> 00:24:28.480
But instead of self-fulfilling it, we search for the outward.
00:24:28.700 --> 00:24:31.839
We, we go outside to validate mm-hmm.
00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:31.920
.
00:24:31.980 --> 00:24:44.960
And that's where we hook up with a lot of issues that allow us to experience these things to then create discordants and, and heartache and grief to come back eventually to that line of self-care.
00:24:45.349 --> 00:25:02.000
Because we, we, we travel all those places, all those positions outward, and we, we get those, uh, those, those attendant lovers that, that, um, can build us up and suckers dry because we don't know we have an experience from within ourselves.
00:25:02.358 --> 00:25:02.358
Mm-hmm.
00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:04.960
what that looks like and feels like, you know?
00:25:05.118 --> 00:25:05.118
Yeah.
00:25:05.358 --> 00:25:06.720
We, we we need the outer.
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:07.079
I
00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:11.200
Love when I'm watching you because what you're doing is your hands are coming to your heart mm-hmm.
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:11.279
.
00:25:11.940 --> 00:25:18.279
And they're saying when you know, when you're in, when you're going in and you're, you know what you need and you desire and then your hands go out.
00:25:19.059 --> 00:25:21.720
And so that is the, I call that the point of power.
00:25:21.868 --> 00:25:26.519
When I take the point of power away from what is heartfelt Yeah.
00:25:26.539 --> 00:25:32.118
And close to me and I place it out in you, uh, then I'm gonna be disappointed.
00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:32.440
Absolutely.
00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:33.960
Because I just absolutely gave you my passion.
00:25:34.670 --> 00:25:37.519
It's like Zach, well quote one last time before we're done.
00:25:37.779 --> 00:25:46.039
He said to me when I bought him the last set of oil paints and he'd given up painting for music and he said, if you love painting so much, why don't you do it?
00:25:46.059 --> 00:25:46.480
Mm-hmm.
00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:54.160
, which I started because I realized I wanted a son who was an artist, but I did not, or at least when he showed an interest in art, I thought that was fabulous.
00:25:55.059 --> 00:25:57.118
And when he gave it up, I was heartsick.
00:25:57.618 --> 00:25:59.759
And when my son handed it back to me, yeah.
00:26:00.220 --> 00:26:02.680
It first I was insulted and then I was invited.
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:05.759
I stopped arguing in a harsh, rigid way.
00:26:05.760 --> 00:26:09.839
Became more yielding my wise adult said, I think my kid just taught me something.
00:26:09.910 --> 00:26:10.200
Yeah.
00:26:11.069 --> 00:26:16.079
I've denied myself the artist within, which is the name of our next talk We're gonna get to.
00:26:16.289 --> 00:26:17.358
Thank you so much, Deborah.
00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:17.680
All right.
00:26:17.681 --> 00:26:18.279
Thank you Brenda.
00:26:24.380 --> 00:26:30.160
And that concludes this week's episode of the Soul Path Sessions podcast with Deborah Mights Pearson and Brenda Littleton.
00:26:30.819 --> 00:26:39.358
If you'd like to hear more about living a more soulful life, please subscribe to our channel on your favorite podcast app and be sure to check out the show notes and links below.
00:26:40.059 --> 00:26:47.000
For more information from Deborah, visit soul path sessions.com and for brenda brenda littleton com.
00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:50.160
Thank you for listening and remember to follow your soul.
