Frank Koehn: I want to tell you something, Alex. I think it was before you came on the podcast here, but Kent told me that he's religious about structure. So that's what we're gonna get tonight is we're gonna get Kent providing structure to our disjointed rambling thoughts.
Kent Holdeman: No.
Alex Becker: Really? Yeah. That sounds good. You throw a little bit of religion in there too with that structure and we'll be good to go.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, it made me a little nervous when he said that that he was religious about it. I'm like, I don't know if that's gonna work. Hey, this is off the topic.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. Get used to it, buddy.
Frank Koehn: But I gotta tell you something, talking about religion and being triggered. So you know that I serve at my church, on the production team and I went to the I went into the production room the other day to to manage the live stream and I sat down there to, you know, do do get everything prepared and And also I noticed there's this serving this thing called a serving agreement that the elders have come up with, and and they want they need all of us who serve to sign this thing, and it's kind of a statement of faith, you know, real basic stuff, kind of like, you know, I believe in Jesus and all stuff like that. And I was reading through it, and the one thing it said that something about submitting to the authority of the doctrine of first Christian church. And when I read that, I It was a little triggering. I was like, I've been down this road before. I don't know if I don't know if I want to sign this paper saying I'm gonna submit to the doctrine of this church 'cause what if you know, what if it goes down the road
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: of some other church that I could mention that I've been a part of? And it it's not like that at all. Our our doctrine is very basic and Bible based, but it was a little bit it was a little bit yeah, made me made me sit up and pay attention.
Kent Holdeman: You think if you would have went afoul of their doctrine at some point that they would have kicked you out and deemed you unworthy to be a child of God?
Frank Koehn: I don't know. I sure hope not.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. what what are the repercussions?
Alex Becker: Okay.
Frank Koehn: if you don't agree with the doctrine
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: well then they would prefer that you didn't serve like you know in the on the worship team or whatever, you know. If
Kent Holdeman: Right.
Frank Koehn: you know, you can you can still go to church there and whatnot.
Kent Holdeman: Like that's one of the reasons I go to the church I go to is because, you know, there is no membership.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, I don't know. It's yeah, it was just kind of kinda snuck up on me when I I r I was reading down there and it said a few things about gender and sexuality, you know, very basic stuff that pretty much most Christians would agree with and then then then there was that line about agreeing with the doctrine and I'm like, boy. Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: yeah.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: They're gonna get you straight now, yep, Frank.
Alex Becker: Okay.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, they're working on it.
Alex Becker: Can't hit all the triggers at one time. Gotta take it one at a time. Go a little slow with some of us, you know.
Frank Koehn: Yeah. Gotta have patience with us.
Alex Becker: We're gonna get Kent's sanctuary trigger dealt with here one these days, maybe. Yeah.
Frank Koehn: that's something that we can we can talk about in our in our episode about with the word study.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, hell pessoal.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: Maybe Mr Mr. Wade Trimmer, Pastor Trimmer, maybe he can get Kent straightened out.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, give a plug for him. We've got him coming on in about three weeks. And and
Frank Koehn: I am so enthused about it. I really am.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: we're gonna we're gonna talk about words. what do words
Frank Koehn: Yep. Hello.
Kent Holdeman: mean? Why why do we use the word baptize? I think that's gonna be one of
Frank Koehn: Yep. Good.
Kent Holdeman: yeah, I'm looking forward to that one. That's gonna be good.
Alex Becker: Have both of you been re baptized?
Kent Holdeman: No sir.
Alex Becker: So you're not a real Anabaptist then.
Frank Koehn: Kent is saying that Go ahead, Kent.
Kent Holdeman: I'm curious what you were fixing to say.
Frank Koehn: I I'm gonna res reserve my words.
Kent Holdeman: You were fixing to diagnose me, I believe.
Frank Koehn: Well, I actually thought where you were going with that is is that you've been baptized once according to the meaning of the word that it means to be immersed. But maybe that's not where you were going. I know.
Kent Holdeman: no. no I I haven't been yet. I plan to be. I'll I guess I would say that.
Frank Koehn: What's what's holding ya up?
Kent Holdeman: Well
Frank Koehn: I'm s I'm starting to feel like my pastor 'cause I'm gonna go somewhere with this.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. I'm fixing a you you might
Alex Becker: And
Kent Holdeman: have to cut this little part out here. But the t
Frank Koehn: I don't think so. I think we need to leave it in.
Kent Holdeman: Well, it involves somebody else.
Frank Koehn: yeah, okay.
Kent Holdeman: step yet. Yeah. And
Frank Koehn: Okay. I can respect that. I think that's think that's a legitimate reason to wait.
Alex Becker: But the question
Kent Holdeman: I you know.
Alex Becker: that I have is as you said that you was talking about words and the meaning of words, the form of baptism that we grew up believing with baptism really isn't baptism. If you
Kent Holdeman: No.
Alex Becker: take the word baptism as plunge dip or immerse, you know
Frank Koehn: Right.
Alex Becker: what I mean.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. I I think it's it is important to understand the meaning of the word.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: and and to understand like what is the importance of it? I think that's one question I have, you know. the thief on the cross was never baptized, obviously.
Alex Becker: Right.
Kent Holdeman: this isn't something that we do so that God's more happy with us. And I I think this'll be a really interesting thing to get into with Wade. Like, why do we baptize people? I mean, we do it because it was commanded, right? it's an outward sign of what's happened on the inside. How nitpicky do we get with the details? And y'all
Alex Becker: Yeah,
Kent Holdeman: y'all know that I I believe in being immersed. I mean, I think both of y'all understand that. So I'm not talking from a I'm not arguing from a place of I don't agree with it. I
Frank Koehn: Right.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: I think that's the it's just kind of the question sometimes that some people struggle with, I think, is you know, is it that important to redo something?
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: You know, if it wasn't done quite right. I think that would be the question in some people's minds.
Frank Koehn: Well, I spent quite a while thinking about that and struggling with it because my conversion experience when I met Jesus is very real to me. And it took me a while to come around to the idea that immersion is really the way it's supposed to be. And I had a I think I had two visits with my pastor over probably about a year and it got real to me that I mean It seems quite obvious that the word baptism does mean to be immersed. That's
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: seems fairly clear. And this is one thing I like about my pastor and my church. there's nothing that's overcomplicated. In his mind, we know what the word means and it's a commandment that Jesus gave us. So that's really about all you need to know. And so I got to the point where I'm like, you know what? I think I'm good with that. I think I believe that. I think that it's something I need to do. But It took me a little while to get there.
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: And so I personally think it's an important thing to do b just from the standpoint of obedience. Now, having said that, I mean in your situation, Kent, I have no problem at all with you saying that you want to wait, you know, Now I'd hate to see you wait until you're eighty seven years old. But I mean maybe that'd be okay too. I really don't know.
Alex Becker: Well we're a good bit younger than him. If he gets that old, we'll just go up and do it, just carry a tub to his house. Make sure he gets in.
Frank Koehn: We'll just grab well, be honest with you be honest with you, Alex, I was thinking about doing it Friday when you and I are gonna be up there anyway.
Alex Becker: We can do it. We can find some water somewhere.
Kent Holdeman: You can sprinkle me.
Frank Koehn: Yeah. Then you will will have been poured, sprinkled, and hopefully immersed at some point.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. yeah, that's good.
Frank Koehn: that's a good one. Yeah.
Alex Becker: But it is it is a interesting conversation and you know, 'cause there's I guess you consider baptism a sacrament.
Frank Koehn: Think so.
Alex Becker: And then you have other sacraments too, right? I mean communion and then
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: then you have other ones. I don't know that fasting would be a sacra considered sacrament, but you have a lot of other things that to me are in that same, it it doesn't, it's not a matter of salvation. You know, you don't have to have communion or partake of communion to be saved. There's no salvation in it, but Jesus doesn't like give that as a suggestion. And same way with fasting, he doesn't, you know, say, Well, when you when you know, if you decide to fast, then here's how you should do it. He says, When you do it. So it's obviously his expectation that we will do these things, we will get
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: baptized, we will fast, we will have communion, you know, we will be faithful in those things that he's commanded us. So That's but that's interesting because it isn't like you said, there isn't salvation. We wouldn't believe that any of those things are necessary for salvation. The thief on the cross didn't have communion either, you know. So
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. Yeah, and communion is such a it's done so widely different all the way from some people every Sunday to, you know, once a year.
Frank Koehn: Or if if you are in a certain church and you have to recess your revivals a couple of times, you might only do it once every three or four years.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, true.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: I I don't know, I was just talking to somebody this week about about was about a bunch of different things, but communion came up and I told him I was like, Man, I'm an advocate for doing it every Sunday. I just I just really like it. You know, there's the argument that it might become routine, but I don't find it that way. I I thoroughly enjoy that having that moment every Sunday morning to acknowledge what Jesus did for me and
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: that it's all about him and not about me. I I just love it.
Alex Becker: I think
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Alex Becker: when the s when the saints get together, when God's people get together, they should have communion. I really do. I I mean that's that's the that's kind of the way the early church I think would have gathered around the table, not a pulpit, you know, and I'm not against
Frank Koehn: Right.
Alex Becker: the pulpit, but I do think that oftentimes we neglect the table, and we've made church or, you know, corporate worship around the pulpit instead of the table. So I don't know, that that's maybe a conversation for another day.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, and I don't have a problem with you know, with churches that decide to do it once a month or whatever. But
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: I'm just I like the way we do it.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: I like that I like that what you said there, Alex. we gather around a table, not a pulpit. That's really interesting. Where where does that come from? Does that come from a book or an author or is that just you? This is just Alex.
Alex Becker: Mm. No, I wouldn't be that smart to come up with that. No, I'm pretty sure that comes through a lot of the reading that I've done. talking about early church. Probably house church stuff, early church stuff, just and I don't know. I just I I've r I've run into that multiple times, but that's but that would be the truth of the the of the early church was they gathered to celebrate Christ and what he did on the cross. And it wasn't, you know, theological teaching or doctrine as much. I mean, Paul's letters were, man, how many years was it after Christ died that Paul's letters even started circulating through the church? It was quite a few years, right? I mean, it wasn't it wasn't you know, and then I mean they would have had the apostles that probably would have traveled through the churches and letters would have maybe circulated that way. But And I know that there were elders appointed and, you know, all that, but I don't think that that's I think if you did a a deep dive into church history, I think you would find the table's the primary point of the of the gathering, not not a pulpit or teaching or doctrine or theology.
Frank Koehn: Well and on that point, like I said, we we observe communion every Sunday morning in our corporate worship service, but the the small group concept has been pushed in my church a lot, and I really like it, and I almost think it it would make sense to observe communion with your small group.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: Because that is where I actually see church happening. Like the the thing of of doing life together and helping one another through the you know, the nitty gritty personal struggles that you have, that's not happening in a corporate worship service. So sometimes I think that the communion almost makes more sense in that setting.
Alex Becker: We've done communion at around Kent's table before.
Frank Koehn: yeah.
Alex Becker: Four or five years ago, I remember we were at his house and we had communion one evening around his table, you know, so that was that was amazing. I remember all those all those times. I think we should do it more often, really.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, yeah.
Alex Becker: it's interesting. I have a friend who is Anglican priest, I believe, and we started talking about communion and you know, I think they would believe that only a priest can administrate communion or something like that. You know,
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Alex Becker: they ha they hold a very a don't know what you like a hierarchy hierarchical view of you know church and then I think that will play even into communion but I don't know it's an interesting interesting topic. I I would love to know where we're going tonight in Jude though Frank. Give us your scripture and kick us off there at some point in
Frank Koehn: Well, I can tell you what I've been thinking about, but I've really enjoyed this discussion. I I kind of like just I don't know what you call it, a freestyle discussion. There's nothing wrong with that. But yeah. No, that that's all good. We're we're probably going to
Alex Becker: Yeah. Well we don't need to move on either if you wanna keep talking about that. I guess I Yeah.
Frank Koehn: talk about communion in some other episode at some point. But so this is a little disjointed, but that's the way my mind works. But so first of all, I was doing some serious thinking about my myself and the relationships that I have in life. especially with with people who maybe don't believe the same that I that I do, that are close to me. And I was as I was thinking about all that and trying to sort things out and make sense of things, I was impressed with these verses in Jude that says, Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy. To the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority before all time and now and forever. Amen. And I got to thinking about those verses, and I got this mental image, or this maybe even more of a feeling from those verses of being able to live in a place spiritually where we're truly submitted to Jesus Christ and we trust Him. That He's going to take care of things, and I don't have to. I don't even have to struggle to figure them out and understand them all the time. I need to have a relationship with Him and hear Him as He speaks to me through the Holy Spirit and through His Word. But when I'm doing that, I need to then trust Him to do what these verses say, that He's the one that's going to keep me from stumbling, and He's the one that's going to keep me blameless and faultless before God. And then as that was one night, I was doing this thinking in the middle of the night when I couldn't sleep. And so I was thinking about all that. And then over the next couple of days, I started thinking about forgiveness and reconciliation and what justice is. And in my mind all of this was related, and I can't exactly tell you how. Where something had happened that really, really hurt me and I really struggled with it for a long time, for months. I would forgive or I would think I would forgive, and then a day or two later I'd be working and all of a sudden this whole thing would come back to me and I'm I mean it would be awful. And I'd be like, I thought I forgave. And I'd be struggling with it again. And it's the opposite of this this trust and leaving it with God and and you know, trusting Him to to keep me. I would be like have this thing going around and around in my head for hours. And then I would pray and I would finally get to the point where I'm like, okay, I turn turn loose of it and I'll trust it to God a couple days later and be right back. And so that was something that came to my mind in all of this, how that works. And One thing that kind of inspired me, you know those verses? I'm on a I'm on a bit of a rant here. I'm sorry, I'm fixing a quit. But you know those verses where I think it was Peter or one of the disciples, they asked Jesus how many times they should forgive?
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: And he told them that they should forgive what was it, seventy times seven, maybe?
Alex Becker: Right.
Frank Koehn: And I've always thought, you know, that that maybe was a whole bunch of different things that happened. But I've begun to believe that that process that I went through of having to forgive. over and over and over for the same thing might it might have something to do with what those scriptures say about 70 times seven.
Alex Becker: Let's do that.
Frank Koehn: And now here's the here's the amazing thing. I cannot remember what that thing is anymore. I remember the struggle of forgiving multiple times over and over and over. And I remember a a person or two who was like you know involved in the situation, but I don't remember the thing anymore. And that's pretty cool. And I think it has to do with with Jesus doing his thing that's talked about in this doxology in Jude where he says that I'm able to do this. I'm gonna keep you. And he's kept me and he's he's he's got me to the point where he's kept me from even remembering that thing back there, whatever it was.
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: So I know that's disjointed, I know it's probably all over the place, but that's where my mind hasn't been.
Alex Becker: That was good. I enjoyed that.
Frank Koehn: ...structure specialist, will now speak for us.
Kent Holdeman: No, I'm I'm here listening. I don't have my thoughts all together yet. You know how that works. My
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: brain doesn't I I d I don't talk very well till I have every all the dots lined up in my head.
Frank Koehn: Yeah. Some of us have not learned to keep our mouths shut. We just start talking like I just did and we try to figure it out while we're while we're talking.
Kent Holdeman: Some of us want to know what we're thinking so we start talking.
Frank Koehn: That's right.
Kent Holdeman: It it's it is really interesting to me just reading through these verses. Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy. I mean it j it's such a beautiful verse of
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: of where we get the power to do anything.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: Right.
Kent Holdeman: And and that's just man, when I hear verses like that, it's like eating candy. You know?
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: It's just so good. And I love candy, I can tell you that much. so you Had somebody hurt you. And we all every person on this earth
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: knows what that feels like. We've we've every one of us have been hurt in some way or another. and yeah, and it and sometimes I think we can get into this idealistic picture where we think that if we actually were a good Christian, whatever good Christian is. That we would never get hurt. I don't think that's true at all.
Frank Koehn: I don't think it is either. And then I'd like to go one step further than what you just said, Kent. I I totally agree with that mentality that that's how we think. And then after we have been hurt, then I think I for most of my life had this had this mindset that you needed to somewhat ignore it. You couldn't actually admit that a wrong had been done and that it did hurt you. And you tried to make the thing that happened okay. Instead of saying that was wrong, that thing that happened was wrong. And it hurt me, and now I need to forgive and then heal. And if you don't do the first thing, if you don't say that was wrong, that happened, I don't think you can get to the step of actually forgiving. Or am I wrong?
Kent Holdeman: No, I I've thought that for a long time. Like like that was something that impressed me I don't really clearly seven or eight years ago that you can't forgive something that wasn't wrong. Was there to forgive?
Frank Koehn: Right.
Alex Becker: And you especially
Kent Holdeman: And
Alex Becker: will never come to a reconciliation, which is the next step if you don't get to the forgiveness, you know.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, if you if you kind of hold that thing in your head like if you get hurt, you get hurt. Everybody gets hurt, right? And it's really bad when you don't heal from the hurt. Like that y that needs to happen. If it doesn't, you're gonna you're it's they say, you know, it's like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies.
Frank Koehn: That's right.
Kent Holdeman: so you want to heal from that and if you don't
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: actually accept the fact that, okay, this was wrong. Maybe this person is still not not accepting you, not treating
Frank Koehn: Right.
Kent Holdeman: you well. And yeah, yeah, to you can say, okay, this is actually wrong, but God, you've forgiven me of way, way more than I'll ever forgive anybody else. And
Frank Koehn: Yep.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: I need your help here. Because
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: man, it tells you right here, he says that's what he's gonna do.
Frank Koehn: So I talked to a guy this this past week that
Kent Holdeman: Okay.
Frank Koehn: he's in the situation that you're talking about where's where there are some people that are treating him in a way that that's really not right. And I don't know, I just really felt for him because I don't think he maybe was at the point to really turn loose of it completely. I think he will at some point. But when you're in that It can be really difficult. And then to try to understand how to forgive, how to move on from something and turn loose of something that's kind of still happening, maybe that you can't completely separate yourself from. That's a that's a hard situation to be in. And I think it takes a a continual turning loose and giving it over to God. But I also think that it's possible for a Christian to do that. Bleep. Because the because the the other option is to live in bitterness. And that can't work. I mean, even if you're not a Christian, if you don't even even if you're not a Christian, if you don't learn to forgive, you're going to get bitter and very unhappy and you're going to be miserable. I mean, really, deep down, forgiveness is a selfish act because it frees you to be happy.
Kent Holdeman: Wow. Why'd you have to say it that way?
Frank Koehn: Yeah, it's probably not exactly right, but it's kind of true.
Kent Holdeman: No, I mean I get I get what you're saying. Man, I don't know that I've ever thought of it like quite like that.
Frank Koehn: And the and the other thing is and I I sit here saying all this stuff and I'm I'm as guilty as anyone of doing these things, but when there's somebody that that has hurt you or is hurting you or you think isn't treating you right or whatever, they can get so in your head that I don't I don't know, man. They you they can get so in your head that they're r kinda ruining your life, ruining your happiness, and you're letting them do that. When I sit and look at that, especially when I sit and listen to someone else, this this individual that I've talked to this past week, I felt for him. He's in a hard situation. And from me, like I'd have no investment in any of it. I could say, well, just turn loose of it. Don't worry about them. You know, just be happy and live your life. Mark Cohen. I'll never forget. Yeah, he that was one of his sayings, just be happy. Like you could just decide to be happy and just be happy. But I felt myself feeling that way when I listened to him talk about some of his struggles. I was like, Well man, you know, you don't want to you don't want to let that thing ruin the rest of your life. So you know, just get over it and be happy. But I said earlier that I spent months dealing with something my own self, so I have no room to talk.
Alex Becker: Yeah, we've probably all been held hostage by offense and bitterness and unforgiveness at some point in our lives. And I was just thinking, and I've probably said it on here before, but you know, for me, the The times where I have like been so caught up in that, where I just felt helpless and cried out and asked God to do the thing that I couldn't do myself, you know, like I just just you know, he's If you read through Psalms, you see David crying out to God, telling God about his enemies, how what they want to do to him, kind of what he wants to do to them. What you know, you watch his praise, his worship, but he's pretty real about how he feels about his enemies, you know.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: If David can be that real with God about his enemies, I could be real with God about mine. And I've told God told God some, you know, all my dark thoughts about my enemies before and just said I can't love this person. I can't, you know, on my own, there's no way 'cause I just wanna, you know, I wanna despise them or I wanna whatever it is. I can't even think of a situation right now on the top of my head, but just, you know, asking God then to come in and do the thing that I can't do myself, just give me
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: Supernatural love or you know, or forgiveness or or peace, you know, in those situations. And I find every time God's been faithful in doing that for me. Maybe not as quickly as I wanted him to, but he's definitely faithful. So I think it takes some humility on our part because there's a part of us, even though we know what we know, we say, we don't want to be in bondage or like a slave to this person, you know, and but I don't know, something in the flesh feels mighty good. So hold on to that.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, there is.
Kent Holdeman: This there there's a saying here that I really liked. And we so with these three words forgiveness, reconciliation, and justice. This saying here, forgiveness, reconciliation, and justice
Alex Becker: Thank you.
Kent Holdeman: belong together, but they are not interchangeable. Forgiveness addresses the debt, reconciliation addresses the relationship, justice addresses the wrong.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: Forgiveness does not automatically produce reconciliation. Reconciliation does not eliminate justice, and justice is not the same as personal
Alex Becker: Okay. Okay.
Kent Holdeman: revenge.
Frank Koehn: Okay. That's a really good thing, Kent, because there was a a definition of forgiveness here that I noticed today that says it's it's just one short sentence. It says a decision before
Alex Becker: Right.
Frank Koehn: God to release personal vengeance. And that that ties in exactly with what you're saying because it's me saying it's it's it's not me saying it's okay but they did what they did, whatever it might be. It's me saying, I'm not gonna do anything about
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: it. I'm gonna leave it to God. And God might deal with it now, He might deal with it later. I may never see him deal with it, but I'm okay with that because I truly believe God is real and I truly believe God is just and merciful. I recognize the fact that He's forgiven me beyond I anything I can imagine. And so God here's here's the situation. Go you know, do what you need to do with it. That was a really easy thing to say.
Kent Holdeman: Has beginning to say, man. That sounds so good.
Alex Becker: Yeah. Yeah. Like how
Frank Koehn: I wish
Alex Becker: how do you?
Frank Koehn: it was that easy. I wish it was as easy to do it as to say it, but I had never really thought about the thing of personal vengeance quite like that. But that's what you're doing is turning loose of that. That's a good quote you read there. I like it.
Alex Becker: Man, but you know how you know where my where my f flesh wants to go in that with that statement is like, well, I'll let go of my personal vengeance, but you know, God'll be the judge and you know, they'll burn in hell for that, you know, because God will judge them for that. And so you I don't think is there a point of is personal vengeance even letting go of that part of it where we're not like, well, I'll let go, but God's gonna, you know, get them get good for that. I I don't know.
Frank Koehn: I'm not sure I'm not sure if that's letting go of it, Alex. I think that's called outsourcing it. I think you're supposed to truly let it go. That's kinda like if you hire somebody to kill somebody rather than killing them yourself. Ain't a whole lot of difference.
Alex Becker: That's not just me loving justice. That's not me just loving justice, man.
Kent Holdeman: That was hilarious. I gotta say, man, that was good.
Alex Becker: outsource this.
Frank Koehn: goodness.
Alex Becker: It's a good person to outsource it too if you're gonna outsource it.
Frank Koehn: Well, I ain't gonna argue with that, probably the best.
Alex Becker: I do think
Kent Holdeman: That's funny.
Alex Becker: though, I I I do think that it's important for people for certain people in certain stages of their life to not beat themselves up on this topic. There was a point in my life when I was leaving the religion, I had so much hurt and so many people that I felt like had hurt me and and I had to just I come to a point where, you know, I think God released me and just let me be okay right there and was like the Holy Spirit is faithful. He won't leave me here and I don't just sit here and get all caught up in bondage over it. And if you really can just like God, you know the hurt, you know the pain. I don't even know how to deal with this. I just wanna put my eyes on you and just keep moving forward. He's gonna be faithful in working all that out. I don't think I think we get in such a we can get in a tizzy thinking that it needs to all be dealt with right now. You know, our timeline is like right immediate.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: Right. So
Kent Holdeman: I think the this verse nine, I in my mind anyways, it's it ties in with what we're saying here. This verse nine in Jude is really interesting. But when the Archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke you. Now I'm I'm not gonna pretend
Alex Becker: he outsourced it. He outsourced it.
Kent Holdeman: to say I understand that verse. Like there's so much there that doesn't really make sense to me, but yes. He outsourced that very much. And that's really interesting to think about it that way. E this is
Frank Koehn: And he's an archangel.
Kent Holdeman: yeah, this is like I don't know who he is for sure, but I think he's
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: up in the ranks somewhere.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, I think he's like a boss angel.
Kent Holdeman: somewhere in there.
Alex Becker: He's the I think he's at the very top. I think Michael's the the archangel's at the very top of the of the order as far as angels are concerned. But I mean that's amazing. I I don't even know I don't even know what to think about that, you know? Man. So should we go around saying the Lord rebuke you if we instead of I mean that it seems a little presumptuous to be saying that
Frank Koehn: You
Alex Becker: to you know, someone walking in sin. I mean
Frank Koehn: Yeah, I'm not sure that's going to have much of an effect. At least not a g it might have an effect, but it probably won't be a good one.
Alex Becker: I think this was a in a I think I mean you're talking about you're talking about the devil, man. So I think this was
Frank Koehn: That's right.
Alex Becker: you know, I don't know.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, aren't you the Lord rebukes spirits, right? Like when when Peter was reprimanding Jesus, which kind of still blows my mind every time I think about it, but when he was reprimanding Jesus for saying what he was saying about dying, Jesus turned around and said, Get thee behind me Satan.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: I don't think that he was the person of Peter was not Satan.
Alex Becker: Right.
Kent Holdeman: Right.
Frank Koehn: No, I don't think so. But man, I've never really just stopped and thought about this, but I can you imagine being Peter and the and Jesus Christ, the Lord of all the universe, turns around and calls you Satan? I mean, didn't call him that exactly, but s would have felt like it. Man.
Alex Becker: He'd already been through a lot too, if you think about it. He'd already denied
Frank Koehn: Or beta.
Alex Becker: Christ and then, you know, said, I'll never deny you. Then he realizes he, you know, he leaves in shame, you know, weeping the fact that he denied his Lord and Savior. And the this this instance you're referring to, Kent, is after Christ has rose, right? This is when he's
Kent Holdeman: I don't think so, but I could be wrong. think it was when Jesus was saying that he was going to die, but I'm not sure.
Alex Becker: okay, I gotcha. Maybe I have my time running.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, I think so. But you know, that that brings us to another another aspect of this forgiveness thing, and and that is when you ha when you have to forgive yourself. And that can be exceedingly difficult because when you screw up bad and you know you've screwed up bad, people will sometimes forgive you before you can forgive yourself. That can be a rough one, and I can imagine Peter dealing with that because just like you said, Alex.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: I mean he said some big things and then he he fell hard.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, I think he was one of those guys that had to talk so they knew what they were thinking.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, you're probably
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: right. Yeah, but what one of you used the term not beating yourself up and that's a rough one because y the I guess it's the devil. You you know, you the devil can get you going in your own mind, focusing on your inadequacy or your sinfulness or whatever. And well, it reminds me of something that I was listening to a podcast today and a pastor made the comment that he had had somebody in his church call him up. No. He had somebody in prison call him and tell him that the the pastor didn't know what all he had done and that he he didn't think he could be forgiven. And I like the pastor's response. He he said, Do you think that you're a better sinner than Christ is a savior? Like that you're that you're that good, or you're that bad, or you're that impressive. important or that significant. I mean you're none of those things. And so to realize that I'm human, I'm going to mess up. I need to accept that. My pride's gonna be hurt. That's probably a lot of the thing why we don't forgive ourselves is because of our own pride and our own ego. But to realize, hey, it's gonna happen. And be able to move on from that. That's that's a hard one.
Alex Becker: I think the little God player in all of us wants to pay for something. Like we want to like, all right, well, I screwed up. Now I should like pay for this. And I think that's so hard for us. Like the free gift of salvation is so hard for most of us to comprehend because like
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Alex Becker: we we won't hardly accept a free gift from, you know, our friend or our family, you know, much less, you know, like, surely I gotta pay something for this. And so I think even for our own selves, like. Man, we just feel like we need to, yeah, pay some penance or do s you know, do something to Make things right.
Kent Holdeman: So how do you distinguish showing mercy to a person from tolerating the teaching or the conduct that's destroying that person? I mean, at some level each one of us are you know, we we Have conversations at least. Have relationships with people maybe that we wish could see something differently.
Alex Becker: I don't know that I have the answer to that, but I I do know one thing that there's times when you have to cut it off. You have to cut off relationships, you have to separate yourself, put some distance between you and them if if they're too toxic or you know. I and I don't know. That that's challenging. I think it can be done in love and I think it has to be done in love. I don't think you can do it just, you know, out of spite or anger or unforgiveness or, you know, offense, but I do think And that's always a challenge to know what that should look like or how you can do that. But I do feel like there's probably times when you you need to do that. So I don't know that that doesn't really answer your question, Cam, but but you're right. There are I think most people are gonna have s somebody in their life that Gonna be tough to navigate that relationship with, for sure.
Kent Holdeman: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: you need discernment and you have to keep coming back and checking your own heart, making and making sure that it's in alignment with the gospel because, you know Jesus doesn't call us to run away from all hard situations, you know,
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: just 'cause they're they're tough. That's not we don't have the freedom as a believer to just run away f when things get tough or get hard. And I don't know, may maybe I maybe I'll maybe I do that too quickly.
Kent Holdeman: I I don't know how well this plays in here. I had a conversation today with somebody. And they're they're quite hurt by some decisions that are being made. I'm trying to keep this really generic here, but sorry about that. I have to in this situation. And they're decisions that had to be made, unfortunately. And my first instinct was to
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: bring up all the reasons why this had to be this way.
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: Because in my mind it was really clear. And I'm sitting here thinking, well, you know, if you would have done this, if you'd have done that, you know, it wouldn't be this way.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: And Thankfully, I had some time to think.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: and I and I think God did this for me because believe me, I I don't go down this road very easily on my own. But He helped me to see where this person's head is at right now. And it's it's it's in a really painful place.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: And a lot of the things that are being said If you want to take them that way, it could be taken as rejection, as hurt hurtful. And and just to understand, okay, this is where this
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: person is at right now. The facts right now probably don't matter a whole lot. You know,
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: me coming in there with all the facts
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: of w at least the the reality the way I see it, probably won't actually build this relationship and to understand where this person is at and and be caring and and s and I mean honestly reach out. that's what I want to do. I that can be hard in itself because you don't know what to say. You don't know how to because it doesn't make any sense to me, you know? I it's hard for me to get it.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: Say your problem can't is your logical. That's really I think what it is because and I think most men are like that, that we want to analyze it and understand it and then apply logic and fix it. That's that feels great.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: But what you were just saying as you were speaking, it it clicked with me and it made sense. I'm like, yes, we need to admit and acknowledge that life is really messy, that I whatever situation you're talking about, that this person is hurt. And whether the decisions were right or wrong, whether they were made in good faith or in spite or whatever it is. None of like you said, none of that really matters a whole lot 'cause what is real to that person is their hurt. That's the most real thing to them. And to be able to acknowledge that and it because I here's what I think. I think when you're that person and you're hurting and somebody comes along and just tries to fix it, it makes you mad. It's not what you need. You need somebody to come along and say, Look, not necessarily even agree with you, but to say, Look, I know you're hurting and I'm sorry for that. And that's about all there is. But sometimes that feels pretty good. Just to know that they care enough about you to say, Look, I know I know it hurts. And there's really nothing I can do but, you know, I'm I'm here and I'm sorry. I don't know. That's hard to do for a man though, because like you said, you have the answers and they're they're right.
Kent Holdeman: fix this. the thing of it is I know that this person is very smart and I know that when they have time to sit down and think through it, they're gonna they're gonna understand. It's gonna make sense. it's funny how we humans work. and I I think in a lot of ways I'm actually the same way. If somebody does something to me and the closer they are the worse this is. But somebody disrespects me or treats me in a way that treads on that one little nerve that I have that can't be tread on. I want And when somebody hears me and acknowledges that, and I don't want to act like we're all a bunch of snowflakes, I don't feel that way. But when that is heard, then that like gives me freedom to let go of it almost or in a way and And I and I'm saying this mostly from I don't think that when I'm hurt I need to be trying to figure out if other people are treating me the right way. That's not where I'm coming from. But
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: I do believe that for me, l working with a situation like that, I definitely have to think of it that way.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, so I have another question, kinda down the line of forgiveness. So You use the term like if somebody disrespects you. So it's one thing when somebody hurts you or disrespects you, and then you have to deal with that. But I had a situation, I hadn't been married long, and somebody disrespected my wife. And I was teaching school and one of my students, at least I believe
Kent Holdeman: Okay.
Frank Koehn: they disrespected my wife. It was very real to me that that had happened. And it wasn't you, Alex. I just remembered that I taught you in school. I I don't think about that hardly ever. goodness.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: Now I wonder if I should even s tell this story.
Alex Becker: Maybe I can give you some context now. I don't know.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, but somebody somebody said something snarky to my wife and to me it was just disrespectful. And I made that poor kid go out and run until they almost dropped from exhaustion. I I just went nuclear on And later I felt awful 'cause I like I still I still think they disrespect my wife, but I was like, that was a little extreme. And so how does forgiveness work in a situation like that? You know, I and I feel I feel that same feeling with my kids sometimes. Like If I think somebody is threatening my kids or man, I'll I got this feeling in me that I could just go scorched earth on So how does how does forgiveness play in with our our instincts to protect as men?
Alex Becker: You opened up a whole new can of worms. 'Cause now we're gonna go into the whole non resistant.
Frank Koehn: man, I hadn't even thought yeah, I I didn't mean to open that can up 'cause that's a can.
Alex Becker: Yeah. I think you did the best thing you possibly could have done and I think the only thing and the right thing to go nuclear on the kid for disrespecting your wife. I think that's what I think that's exactly what needed to happen. yeah, I think that what kind of man are you if you don't do that? You know, if you don't stand up for your wife and your kids. I mean that's that's no kind of man at all. I'm sorry. I don't think that you can say that This whole idea of well I'm just gonna just let people disrespect my family and that's somehow godly, get out of here. Nothing godly about that. You're just showing yourself a weak man hiding behind a hiding behind a you know, whatchall it? Like a whatever. your
Frank Koehn: Well, what you're saying, Alex, has to do with that justice word that we were that I included in my ramble my at the beginning, because it does seem like there's something built into us that in when we see injustice, we want to do something about it. And I think that there is a time for a man to do something about injustice. I think God calls us to do that in some circumstances for sure.
Alex Becker: Hundred percent. That is not that is something I think that is like innate within our the within the the heart. And I think the more you love God and you love
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Alex Becker: his righteousness and you love his kingdom and you realize that sin is the curse, you know, the curse is is like messed everything up, the more you hate all of those unrighteous things and the more you
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: you should. You sh yeah, I don't think I think the more The closer you are to God, the more that kind of stuff bothers you. Unrighteousness, unjustice should bother you. I the Christians should be like they talk about what is it, the just or social warriors or like just what what's the terminology that they use? Like, you know, people that will fight for other people, you know, in society. Like Christians should be that. I think the it's sad that the church has like given that role over to the government because I think, you know, centuries ago it was a church that was caring for the downtrodden, the poor. the the hurting, you know, standing up for those that, you know, standing against, you know, slavery and you know, we should care about all that kind of stuff.
Frank Koehn: Right.
Alex Becker: It should anger you. 'Cause I I I don't think God's neutral about that stuff. I think it angers the heart of God. I think he's
Frank Koehn: absolutely.
Alex Becker: you know. So I don't know. There's this big controversy about that pastor over in was it Texas that went nuclear on that guy that was threatening his family? Did you see that? So
Frank Koehn: Yeah. I saw a little bit about I don't know really know the story.
Alex Becker: Yeah. So I mean there that it does it does it does like I guess it is always question like where's the line, you know, you know, between you know, maybe he crossed that line. I don't know.
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Alex Becker: I mean I think if your family is in danger or threatened in any way, I I think that's your responsibility as a man to protect them. Do whatever you know.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, I think so. I think you're right.
Alex Becker: So we should talk about non resistance, that'd a fun one. Yeah.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, we need to have an ol a whole episode on that. Definitely.
Kent Holdeman: yeah. That that one we we're probably all mostly on the same page on that one. I'm curious if we would have any any differences. That would be interesting.
Frank Koehn: We definitely need to spend an hour talking about it. I I I
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: think so.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Alex Becker: We probably we probably might be on the same page, on one hand,
Kent Holdeman: Mm.
Alex Becker: but for differing reasons. You know what I mean? Like But that'd be fun to see kind of where we all stand on that. That would be fun, actually. That'd be a lot of fun. man. Cause I've been on a journey with that, you know, when you're taught, you're taught that nonresistance is like the crowning virtue of Christianity. And then but the question is well, what does that really mean? Like what does
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: really mean 'cause I I don't
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Alex Becker: see non resistance as just I won't sign up and go to fight in the in the military, you know, fight for my country. I I think non resistance actually plays out on a practical level every day for most of us and we probably fail in those areas more often than than some of those ones that we make the big you know, the big areas like the like military service or whatever. Probably less of a deal than you know.
Kent Holdeman: You can bring
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: this thing you can bring even non resistance home? Wow.
Alex Becker: yeah, it's starts it's probably starts in the home. You see the wars in my house some days, man. I mean
Kent Holdeman: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Frank Koehn: you better be careful, Alex.
Alex Becker: I'm trying to teach my kids how to become pacifists.
Frank Koehn: You you don't quite have a PV?
Kent Holdeman: I'm trying to think I can't think of a single one of your kids that that would fall under the pacifist mode. I mean
Alex Becker: That's the problem.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, I think all of your kids I think all of your kids are genetically connected to you, Alex.
Alex Becker: That's
Kent Holdeman: Ha
Alex Becker: right. None of them none
Kent Holdeman: ha ha.
Alex Becker: of them fall under the pacifist you know title. So that's what we're working on.
Kent Holdeman: But if you wanna know the truth, I I don't think my kids strayed very far from like they're I'm just amazed at how opinionated they are sometimes.
Frank Koehn: Ha I'm not.
Alex Becker: Not a bit. I'm not a bit. Does surprise me not a not at least. Not not a little.
Frank Koehn: shit.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: we
Alex Becker: so Kent, real quick, when do you turn fifty?
Kent Holdeman: Next a week from Wednesday. Yeah.
Alex Becker: Week from Wednesday. How about then?
Kent Holdeman: I think. Probably. Something like that.
Frank Koehn: Well, I'm looking forward to coming up there and celebrating with you. I I just I'm so enthused about that.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it too.
Alex Becker: These two. Yeah, I can't wait. It's gonna be a good it's gonna be a good time.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, it
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: is. So say one more time, Kent. I think we're we're winding up here maybe, but when is when is Pastor Tremor coming up? Is that the twenty
Kent Holdeman: It's the twenty fourth, isn't it? Let me look at my yeah.
Frank Koehn: That's when we're gonna record it? Yeah. So yeah.
Alex Becker: Yeah, twenty four.
Kent Holdeman: So so that one'll come out either on the twenty eighth or the fourth, I guess, depending on how it shakes out. Yeah. The
Frank Koehn: How it all lines up. Yeah. Yeah, well, like I said earlier, I'm really enthused about about having him on.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, that's gonna be good. He's he's good to hang out with pretty much any time.
Alex Becker: It's
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Alex Becker: a wealth of knowledge, man.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. Never been one to really hold back a whole lot.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: É reoferendo.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, that's true. yeah.
Frank Koehn: All right. Well it's been good once again.
Alex Becker: Yeah, guys have a good rest of
Kent Holdeman: yeah, same.
Alex Becker: evening. He'll take care.
Frank Koehn: Yeah. Talk to you next time.
Kent Holdeman: No.
Alex Becker: Really? Yeah. That sounds good. You throw a little bit of religion in there too with that structure and we'll be good to go.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, it made me a little nervous when he said that that he was religious about it. I'm like, I don't know if that's gonna work. Hey, this is off the topic.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. Get used to it, buddy.
Frank Koehn: But I gotta tell you something, talking about religion and being triggered. So you know that I serve at my church, on the production team and I went to the I went into the production room the other day to to manage the live stream and I sat down there to, you know, do do get everything prepared and And also I noticed there's this serving this thing called a serving agreement that the elders have come up with, and and they want they need all of us who serve to sign this thing, and it's kind of a statement of faith, you know, real basic stuff, kind of like, you know, I believe in Jesus and all stuff like that. And I was reading through it, and the one thing it said that something about submitting to the authority of the doctrine of first Christian church. And when I read that, I It was a little triggering. I was like, I've been down this road before. I don't know if I don't know if I want to sign this paper saying I'm gonna submit to the doctrine of this church 'cause what if you know, what if it goes down the road
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: of some other church that I could mention that I've been a part of? And it it's not like that at all. Our our doctrine is very basic and Bible based, but it was a little bit it was a little bit yeah, made me made me sit up and pay attention.
Kent Holdeman: You think if you would have went afoul of their doctrine at some point that they would have kicked you out and deemed you unworthy to be a child of God?
Frank Koehn: I don't know. I sure hope not.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. what what are the repercussions?
Alex Becker: Okay.
Frank Koehn: if you don't agree with the doctrine
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: well then they would prefer that you didn't serve like you know in the on the worship team or whatever, you know. If
Kent Holdeman: Right.
Frank Koehn: you know, you can you can still go to church there and whatnot.
Kent Holdeman: Like that's one of the reasons I go to the church I go to is because, you know, there is no membership.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, I don't know. It's yeah, it was just kind of kinda snuck up on me when I I r I was reading down there and it said a few things about gender and sexuality, you know, very basic stuff that pretty much most Christians would agree with and then then then there was that line about agreeing with the doctrine and I'm like, boy. Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: yeah.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: They're gonna get you straight now, yep, Frank.
Alex Becker: Okay.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, they're working on it.
Alex Becker: Can't hit all the triggers at one time. Gotta take it one at a time. Go a little slow with some of us, you know.
Frank Koehn: Yeah. Gotta have patience with us.
Alex Becker: We're gonna get Kent's sanctuary trigger dealt with here one these days, maybe. Yeah.
Frank Koehn: that's something that we can we can talk about in our in our episode about with the word study.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, hell pessoal.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: Maybe Mr Mr. Wade Trimmer, Pastor Trimmer, maybe he can get Kent straightened out.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, give a plug for him. We've got him coming on in about three weeks. And and
Frank Koehn: I am so enthused about it. I really am.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: we're gonna we're gonna talk about words. what do words
Frank Koehn: Yep. Hello.
Kent Holdeman: mean? Why why do we use the word baptize? I think that's gonna be one of
Frank Koehn: Yep. Good.
Kent Holdeman: yeah, I'm looking forward to that one. That's gonna be good.
Alex Becker: Have both of you been re baptized?
Kent Holdeman: No sir.
Alex Becker: So you're not a real Anabaptist then.
Frank Koehn: Kent is saying that Go ahead, Kent.
Kent Holdeman: I'm curious what you were fixing to say.
Frank Koehn: I I'm gonna res reserve my words.
Kent Holdeman: You were fixing to diagnose me, I believe.
Frank Koehn: Well, I actually thought where you were going with that is is that you've been baptized once according to the meaning of the word that it means to be immersed. But maybe that's not where you were going. I know.
Kent Holdeman: no. no I I haven't been yet. I plan to be. I'll I guess I would say that.
Frank Koehn: What's what's holding ya up?
Kent Holdeman: Well
Frank Koehn: I'm s I'm starting to feel like my pastor 'cause I'm gonna go somewhere with this.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. I'm fixing a you you might
Alex Becker: And
Kent Holdeman: have to cut this little part out here. But the t
Frank Koehn: I don't think so. I think we need to leave it in.
Kent Holdeman: Well, it involves somebody else.
Frank Koehn: yeah, okay.
Kent Holdeman: step yet. Yeah. And
Frank Koehn: Okay. I can respect that. I think that's think that's a legitimate reason to wait.
Alex Becker: But the question
Kent Holdeman: I you know.
Alex Becker: that I have is as you said that you was talking about words and the meaning of words, the form of baptism that we grew up believing with baptism really isn't baptism. If you
Kent Holdeman: No.
Alex Becker: take the word baptism as plunge dip or immerse, you know
Frank Koehn: Right.
Alex Becker: what I mean.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. I I think it's it is important to understand the meaning of the word.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: and and to understand like what is the importance of it? I think that's one question I have, you know. the thief on the cross was never baptized, obviously.
Alex Becker: Right.
Kent Holdeman: this isn't something that we do so that God's more happy with us. And I I think this'll be a really interesting thing to get into with Wade. Like, why do we baptize people? I mean, we do it because it was commanded, right? it's an outward sign of what's happened on the inside. How nitpicky do we get with the details? And y'all
Alex Becker: Yeah,
Kent Holdeman: y'all know that I I believe in being immersed. I mean, I think both of y'all understand that. So I'm not talking from a I'm not arguing from a place of I don't agree with it. I
Frank Koehn: Right.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: I think that's the it's just kind of the question sometimes that some people struggle with, I think, is you know, is it that important to redo something?
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: You know, if it wasn't done quite right. I think that would be the question in some people's minds.
Frank Koehn: Well, I spent quite a while thinking about that and struggling with it because my conversion experience when I met Jesus is very real to me. And it took me a while to come around to the idea that immersion is really the way it's supposed to be. And I had a I think I had two visits with my pastor over probably about a year and it got real to me that I mean It seems quite obvious that the word baptism does mean to be immersed. That's
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: seems fairly clear. And this is one thing I like about my pastor and my church. there's nothing that's overcomplicated. In his mind, we know what the word means and it's a commandment that Jesus gave us. So that's really about all you need to know. And so I got to the point where I'm like, you know what? I think I'm good with that. I think I believe that. I think that it's something I need to do. But It took me a little while to get there.
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: And so I personally think it's an important thing to do b just from the standpoint of obedience. Now, having said that, I mean in your situation, Kent, I have no problem at all with you saying that you want to wait, you know, Now I'd hate to see you wait until you're eighty seven years old. But I mean maybe that'd be okay too. I really don't know.
Alex Becker: Well we're a good bit younger than him. If he gets that old, we'll just go up and do it, just carry a tub to his house. Make sure he gets in.
Frank Koehn: We'll just grab well, be honest with you be honest with you, Alex, I was thinking about doing it Friday when you and I are gonna be up there anyway.
Alex Becker: We can do it. We can find some water somewhere.
Kent Holdeman: You can sprinkle me.
Frank Koehn: Yeah. Then you will will have been poured, sprinkled, and hopefully immersed at some point.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. yeah, that's good.
Frank Koehn: that's a good one. Yeah.
Alex Becker: But it is it is a interesting conversation and you know, 'cause there's I guess you consider baptism a sacrament.
Frank Koehn: Think so.
Alex Becker: And then you have other sacraments too, right? I mean communion and then
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: then you have other ones. I don't know that fasting would be a sacra considered sacrament, but you have a lot of other things that to me are in that same, it it doesn't, it's not a matter of salvation. You know, you don't have to have communion or partake of communion to be saved. There's no salvation in it, but Jesus doesn't like give that as a suggestion. And same way with fasting, he doesn't, you know, say, Well, when you when you know, if you decide to fast, then here's how you should do it. He says, When you do it. So it's obviously his expectation that we will do these things, we will get
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: baptized, we will fast, we will have communion, you know, we will be faithful in those things that he's commanded us. So That's but that's interesting because it isn't like you said, there isn't salvation. We wouldn't believe that any of those things are necessary for salvation. The thief on the cross didn't have communion either, you know. So
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. Yeah, and communion is such a it's done so widely different all the way from some people every Sunday to, you know, once a year.
Frank Koehn: Or if if you are in a certain church and you have to recess your revivals a couple of times, you might only do it once every three or four years.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, true.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: I I don't know, I was just talking to somebody this week about about was about a bunch of different things, but communion came up and I told him I was like, Man, I'm an advocate for doing it every Sunday. I just I just really like it. You know, there's the argument that it might become routine, but I don't find it that way. I I thoroughly enjoy that having that moment every Sunday morning to acknowledge what Jesus did for me and
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: that it's all about him and not about me. I I just love it.
Alex Becker: I think
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Alex Becker: when the s when the saints get together, when God's people get together, they should have communion. I really do. I I mean that's that's the that's kind of the way the early church I think would have gathered around the table, not a pulpit, you know, and I'm not against
Frank Koehn: Right.
Alex Becker: the pulpit, but I do think that oftentimes we neglect the table, and we've made church or, you know, corporate worship around the pulpit instead of the table. So I don't know, that that's maybe a conversation for another day.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, and I don't have a problem with you know, with churches that decide to do it once a month or whatever. But
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: I'm just I like the way we do it.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: I like that I like that what you said there, Alex. we gather around a table, not a pulpit. That's really interesting. Where where does that come from? Does that come from a book or an author or is that just you? This is just Alex.
Alex Becker: Mm. No, I wouldn't be that smart to come up with that. No, I'm pretty sure that comes through a lot of the reading that I've done. talking about early church. Probably house church stuff, early church stuff, just and I don't know. I just I I've r I've run into that multiple times, but that's but that would be the truth of the the of the early church was they gathered to celebrate Christ and what he did on the cross. And it wasn't, you know, theological teaching or doctrine as much. I mean, Paul's letters were, man, how many years was it after Christ died that Paul's letters even started circulating through the church? It was quite a few years, right? I mean, it wasn't it wasn't you know, and then I mean they would have had the apostles that probably would have traveled through the churches and letters would have maybe circulated that way. But And I know that there were elders appointed and, you know, all that, but I don't think that that's I think if you did a a deep dive into church history, I think you would find the table's the primary point of the of the gathering, not not a pulpit or teaching or doctrine or theology.
Frank Koehn: Well and on that point, like I said, we we observe communion every Sunday morning in our corporate worship service, but the the small group concept has been pushed in my church a lot, and I really like it, and I almost think it it would make sense to observe communion with your small group.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: Because that is where I actually see church happening. Like the the thing of of doing life together and helping one another through the you know, the nitty gritty personal struggles that you have, that's not happening in a corporate worship service. So sometimes I think that the communion almost makes more sense in that setting.
Alex Becker: We've done communion at around Kent's table before.
Frank Koehn: yeah.
Alex Becker: Four or five years ago, I remember we were at his house and we had communion one evening around his table, you know, so that was that was amazing. I remember all those all those times. I think we should do it more often, really.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, yeah.
Alex Becker: it's interesting. I have a friend who is Anglican priest, I believe, and we started talking about communion and you know, I think they would believe that only a priest can administrate communion or something like that. You know,
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Alex Becker: they ha they hold a very a don't know what you like a hierarchy hierarchical view of you know church and then I think that will play even into communion but I don't know it's an interesting interesting topic. I I would love to know where we're going tonight in Jude though Frank. Give us your scripture and kick us off there at some point in
Frank Koehn: Well, I can tell you what I've been thinking about, but I've really enjoyed this discussion. I I kind of like just I don't know what you call it, a freestyle discussion. There's nothing wrong with that. But yeah. No, that that's all good. We're we're probably going to
Alex Becker: Yeah. Well we don't need to move on either if you wanna keep talking about that. I guess I Yeah.
Frank Koehn: talk about communion in some other episode at some point. But so this is a little disjointed, but that's the way my mind works. But so first of all, I was doing some serious thinking about my myself and the relationships that I have in life. especially with with people who maybe don't believe the same that I that I do, that are close to me. And I was as I was thinking about all that and trying to sort things out and make sense of things, I was impressed with these verses in Jude that says, Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy. To the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority before all time and now and forever. Amen. And I got to thinking about those verses, and I got this mental image, or this maybe even more of a feeling from those verses of being able to live in a place spiritually where we're truly submitted to Jesus Christ and we trust Him. That He's going to take care of things, and I don't have to. I don't even have to struggle to figure them out and understand them all the time. I need to have a relationship with Him and hear Him as He speaks to me through the Holy Spirit and through His Word. But when I'm doing that, I need to then trust Him to do what these verses say, that He's the one that's going to keep me from stumbling, and He's the one that's going to keep me blameless and faultless before God. And then as that was one night, I was doing this thinking in the middle of the night when I couldn't sleep. And so I was thinking about all that. And then over the next couple of days, I started thinking about forgiveness and reconciliation and what justice is. And in my mind all of this was related, and I can't exactly tell you how. Where something had happened that really, really hurt me and I really struggled with it for a long time, for months. I would forgive or I would think I would forgive, and then a day or two later I'd be working and all of a sudden this whole thing would come back to me and I'm I mean it would be awful. And I'd be like, I thought I forgave. And I'd be struggling with it again. And it's the opposite of this this trust and leaving it with God and and you know, trusting Him to to keep me. I would be like have this thing going around and around in my head for hours. And then I would pray and I would finally get to the point where I'm like, okay, I turn turn loose of it and I'll trust it to God a couple days later and be right back. And so that was something that came to my mind in all of this, how that works. And One thing that kind of inspired me, you know those verses? I'm on a I'm on a bit of a rant here. I'm sorry, I'm fixing a quit. But you know those verses where I think it was Peter or one of the disciples, they asked Jesus how many times they should forgive?
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: And he told them that they should forgive what was it, seventy times seven, maybe?
Alex Becker: Right.
Frank Koehn: And I've always thought, you know, that that maybe was a whole bunch of different things that happened. But I've begun to believe that that process that I went through of having to forgive. over and over and over for the same thing might it might have something to do with what those scriptures say about 70 times seven.
Alex Becker: Let's do that.
Frank Koehn: And now here's the here's the amazing thing. I cannot remember what that thing is anymore. I remember the struggle of forgiving multiple times over and over and over. And I remember a a person or two who was like you know involved in the situation, but I don't remember the thing anymore. And that's pretty cool. And I think it has to do with with Jesus doing his thing that's talked about in this doxology in Jude where he says that I'm able to do this. I'm gonna keep you. And he's kept me and he's he's he's got me to the point where he's kept me from even remembering that thing back there, whatever it was.
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: So I know that's disjointed, I know it's probably all over the place, but that's where my mind hasn't been.
Alex Becker: That was good. I enjoyed that.
Frank Koehn: ...structure specialist, will now speak for us.
Kent Holdeman: No, I'm I'm here listening. I don't have my thoughts all together yet. You know how that works. My
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: brain doesn't I I d I don't talk very well till I have every all the dots lined up in my head.
Frank Koehn: Yeah. Some of us have not learned to keep our mouths shut. We just start talking like I just did and we try to figure it out while we're while we're talking.
Kent Holdeman: Some of us want to know what we're thinking so we start talking.
Frank Koehn: That's right.
Kent Holdeman: It it's it is really interesting to me just reading through these verses. Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy. I mean it j it's such a beautiful verse of
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: of where we get the power to do anything.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: Right.
Kent Holdeman: And and that's just man, when I hear verses like that, it's like eating candy. You know?
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: It's just so good. And I love candy, I can tell you that much. so you Had somebody hurt you. And we all every person on this earth
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: knows what that feels like. We've we've every one of us have been hurt in some way or another. and yeah, and it and sometimes I think we can get into this idealistic picture where we think that if we actually were a good Christian, whatever good Christian is. That we would never get hurt. I don't think that's true at all.
Frank Koehn: I don't think it is either. And then I'd like to go one step further than what you just said, Kent. I I totally agree with that mentality that that's how we think. And then after we have been hurt, then I think I for most of my life had this had this mindset that you needed to somewhat ignore it. You couldn't actually admit that a wrong had been done and that it did hurt you. And you tried to make the thing that happened okay. Instead of saying that was wrong, that thing that happened was wrong. And it hurt me, and now I need to forgive and then heal. And if you don't do the first thing, if you don't say that was wrong, that happened, I don't think you can get to the step of actually forgiving. Or am I wrong?
Kent Holdeman: No, I I've thought that for a long time. Like like that was something that impressed me I don't really clearly seven or eight years ago that you can't forgive something that wasn't wrong. Was there to forgive?
Frank Koehn: Right.
Alex Becker: And you especially
Kent Holdeman: And
Alex Becker: will never come to a reconciliation, which is the next step if you don't get to the forgiveness, you know.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, if you if you kind of hold that thing in your head like if you get hurt, you get hurt. Everybody gets hurt, right? And it's really bad when you don't heal from the hurt. Like that y that needs to happen. If it doesn't, you're gonna you're it's they say, you know, it's like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies.
Frank Koehn: That's right.
Kent Holdeman: so you want to heal from that and if you don't
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: actually accept the fact that, okay, this was wrong. Maybe this person is still not not accepting you, not treating
Frank Koehn: Right.
Kent Holdeman: you well. And yeah, yeah, to you can say, okay, this is actually wrong, but God, you've forgiven me of way, way more than I'll ever forgive anybody else. And
Frank Koehn: Yep.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: I need your help here. Because
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: man, it tells you right here, he says that's what he's gonna do.
Frank Koehn: So I talked to a guy this this past week that
Kent Holdeman: Okay.
Frank Koehn: he's in the situation that you're talking about where's where there are some people that are treating him in a way that that's really not right. And I don't know, I just really felt for him because I don't think he maybe was at the point to really turn loose of it completely. I think he will at some point. But when you're in that It can be really difficult. And then to try to understand how to forgive, how to move on from something and turn loose of something that's kind of still happening, maybe that you can't completely separate yourself from. That's a that's a hard situation to be in. And I think it takes a a continual turning loose and giving it over to God. But I also think that it's possible for a Christian to do that. Bleep. Because the because the the other option is to live in bitterness. And that can't work. I mean, even if you're not a Christian, if you don't even even if you're not a Christian, if you don't learn to forgive, you're going to get bitter and very unhappy and you're going to be miserable. I mean, really, deep down, forgiveness is a selfish act because it frees you to be happy.
Kent Holdeman: Wow. Why'd you have to say it that way?
Frank Koehn: Yeah, it's probably not exactly right, but it's kind of true.
Kent Holdeman: No, I mean I get I get what you're saying. Man, I don't know that I've ever thought of it like quite like that.
Frank Koehn: And the and the other thing is and I I sit here saying all this stuff and I'm I'm as guilty as anyone of doing these things, but when there's somebody that that has hurt you or is hurting you or you think isn't treating you right or whatever, they can get so in your head that I don't I don't know, man. They you they can get so in your head that they're r kinda ruining your life, ruining your happiness, and you're letting them do that. When I sit and look at that, especially when I sit and listen to someone else, this this individual that I've talked to this past week, I felt for him. He's in a hard situation. And from me, like I'd have no investment in any of it. I could say, well, just turn loose of it. Don't worry about them. You know, just be happy and live your life. Mark Cohen. I'll never forget. Yeah, he that was one of his sayings, just be happy. Like you could just decide to be happy and just be happy. But I felt myself feeling that way when I listened to him talk about some of his struggles. I was like, Well man, you know, you don't want to you don't want to let that thing ruin the rest of your life. So you know, just get over it and be happy. But I said earlier that I spent months dealing with something my own self, so I have no room to talk.
Alex Becker: Yeah, we've probably all been held hostage by offense and bitterness and unforgiveness at some point in our lives. And I was just thinking, and I've probably said it on here before, but you know, for me, the The times where I have like been so caught up in that, where I just felt helpless and cried out and asked God to do the thing that I couldn't do myself, you know, like I just just you know, he's If you read through Psalms, you see David crying out to God, telling God about his enemies, how what they want to do to him, kind of what he wants to do to them. What you know, you watch his praise, his worship, but he's pretty real about how he feels about his enemies, you know.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: If David can be that real with God about his enemies, I could be real with God about mine. And I've told God told God some, you know, all my dark thoughts about my enemies before and just said I can't love this person. I can't, you know, on my own, there's no way 'cause I just wanna, you know, I wanna despise them or I wanna whatever it is. I can't even think of a situation right now on the top of my head, but just, you know, asking God then to come in and do the thing that I can't do myself, just give me
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: Supernatural love or you know, or forgiveness or or peace, you know, in those situations. And I find every time God's been faithful in doing that for me. Maybe not as quickly as I wanted him to, but he's definitely faithful. So I think it takes some humility on our part because there's a part of us, even though we know what we know, we say, we don't want to be in bondage or like a slave to this person, you know, and but I don't know, something in the flesh feels mighty good. So hold on to that.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, there is.
Kent Holdeman: This there there's a saying here that I really liked. And we so with these three words forgiveness, reconciliation, and justice. This saying here, forgiveness, reconciliation, and justice
Alex Becker: Thank you.
Kent Holdeman: belong together, but they are not interchangeable. Forgiveness addresses the debt, reconciliation addresses the relationship, justice addresses the wrong.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: Forgiveness does not automatically produce reconciliation. Reconciliation does not eliminate justice, and justice is not the same as personal
Alex Becker: Okay. Okay.
Kent Holdeman: revenge.
Frank Koehn: Okay. That's a really good thing, Kent, because there was a a definition of forgiveness here that I noticed today that says it's it's just one short sentence. It says a decision before
Alex Becker: Right.
Frank Koehn: God to release personal vengeance. And that that ties in exactly with what you're saying because it's me saying it's it's it's not me saying it's okay but they did what they did, whatever it might be. It's me saying, I'm not gonna do anything about
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: it. I'm gonna leave it to God. And God might deal with it now, He might deal with it later. I may never see him deal with it, but I'm okay with that because I truly believe God is real and I truly believe God is just and merciful. I recognize the fact that He's forgiven me beyond I anything I can imagine. And so God here's here's the situation. Go you know, do what you need to do with it. That was a really easy thing to say.
Kent Holdeman: Has beginning to say, man. That sounds so good.
Alex Becker: Yeah. Yeah. Like how
Frank Koehn: I wish
Alex Becker: how do you?
Frank Koehn: it was that easy. I wish it was as easy to do it as to say it, but I had never really thought about the thing of personal vengeance quite like that. But that's what you're doing is turning loose of that. That's a good quote you read there. I like it.
Alex Becker: Man, but you know how you know where my where my f flesh wants to go in that with that statement is like, well, I'll let go of my personal vengeance, but you know, God'll be the judge and you know, they'll burn in hell for that, you know, because God will judge them for that. And so you I don't think is there a point of is personal vengeance even letting go of that part of it where we're not like, well, I'll let go, but God's gonna, you know, get them get good for that. I I don't know.
Frank Koehn: I'm not sure I'm not sure if that's letting go of it, Alex. I think that's called outsourcing it. I think you're supposed to truly let it go. That's kinda like if you hire somebody to kill somebody rather than killing them yourself. Ain't a whole lot of difference.
Alex Becker: That's not just me loving justice. That's not me just loving justice, man.
Kent Holdeman: That was hilarious. I gotta say, man, that was good.
Alex Becker: outsource this.
Frank Koehn: goodness.
Alex Becker: It's a good person to outsource it too if you're gonna outsource it.
Frank Koehn: Well, I ain't gonna argue with that, probably the best.
Alex Becker: I do think
Kent Holdeman: That's funny.
Alex Becker: though, I I I do think that it's important for people for certain people in certain stages of their life to not beat themselves up on this topic. There was a point in my life when I was leaving the religion, I had so much hurt and so many people that I felt like had hurt me and and I had to just I come to a point where, you know, I think God released me and just let me be okay right there and was like the Holy Spirit is faithful. He won't leave me here and I don't just sit here and get all caught up in bondage over it. And if you really can just like God, you know the hurt, you know the pain. I don't even know how to deal with this. I just wanna put my eyes on you and just keep moving forward. He's gonna be faithful in working all that out. I don't think I think we get in such a we can get in a tizzy thinking that it needs to all be dealt with right now. You know, our timeline is like right immediate.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: Right. So
Kent Holdeman: I think the this verse nine, I in my mind anyways, it's it ties in with what we're saying here. This verse nine in Jude is really interesting. But when the Archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke you. Now I'm I'm not gonna pretend
Alex Becker: he outsourced it. He outsourced it.
Kent Holdeman: to say I understand that verse. Like there's so much there that doesn't really make sense to me, but yes. He outsourced that very much. And that's really interesting to think about it that way. E this is
Frank Koehn: And he's an archangel.
Kent Holdeman: yeah, this is like I don't know who he is for sure, but I think he's
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: up in the ranks somewhere.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, I think he's like a boss angel.
Kent Holdeman: somewhere in there.
Alex Becker: He's the I think he's at the very top. I think Michael's the the archangel's at the very top of the of the order as far as angels are concerned. But I mean that's amazing. I I don't even know I don't even know what to think about that, you know? Man. So should we go around saying the Lord rebuke you if we instead of I mean that it seems a little presumptuous to be saying that
Frank Koehn: You
Alex Becker: to you know, someone walking in sin. I mean
Frank Koehn: Yeah, I'm not sure that's going to have much of an effect. At least not a g it might have an effect, but it probably won't be a good one.
Alex Becker: I think this was a in a I think I mean you're talking about you're talking about the devil, man. So I think this was
Frank Koehn: That's right.
Alex Becker: you know, I don't know.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, aren't you the Lord rebukes spirits, right? Like when when Peter was reprimanding Jesus, which kind of still blows my mind every time I think about it, but when he was reprimanding Jesus for saying what he was saying about dying, Jesus turned around and said, Get thee behind me Satan.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: I don't think that he was the person of Peter was not Satan.
Alex Becker: Right.
Kent Holdeman: Right.
Frank Koehn: No, I don't think so. But man, I've never really just stopped and thought about this, but I can you imagine being Peter and the and Jesus Christ, the Lord of all the universe, turns around and calls you Satan? I mean, didn't call him that exactly, but s would have felt like it. Man.
Alex Becker: He'd already been through a lot too, if you think about it. He'd already denied
Frank Koehn: Or beta.
Alex Becker: Christ and then, you know, said, I'll never deny you. Then he realizes he, you know, he leaves in shame, you know, weeping the fact that he denied his Lord and Savior. And the this this instance you're referring to, Kent, is after Christ has rose, right? This is when he's
Kent Holdeman: I don't think so, but I could be wrong. think it was when Jesus was saying that he was going to die, but I'm not sure.
Alex Becker: okay, I gotcha. Maybe I have my time running.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, I think so. But you know, that that brings us to another another aspect of this forgiveness thing, and and that is when you ha when you have to forgive yourself. And that can be exceedingly difficult because when you screw up bad and you know you've screwed up bad, people will sometimes forgive you before you can forgive yourself. That can be a rough one, and I can imagine Peter dealing with that because just like you said, Alex.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: I mean he said some big things and then he he fell hard.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, I think he was one of those guys that had to talk so they knew what they were thinking.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, you're probably
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: right. Yeah, but what one of you used the term not beating yourself up and that's a rough one because y the I guess it's the devil. You you know, you the devil can get you going in your own mind, focusing on your inadequacy or your sinfulness or whatever. And well, it reminds me of something that I was listening to a podcast today and a pastor made the comment that he had had somebody in his church call him up. No. He had somebody in prison call him and tell him that the the pastor didn't know what all he had done and that he he didn't think he could be forgiven. And I like the pastor's response. He he said, Do you think that you're a better sinner than Christ is a savior? Like that you're that you're that good, or you're that bad, or you're that impressive. important or that significant. I mean you're none of those things. And so to realize that I'm human, I'm going to mess up. I need to accept that. My pride's gonna be hurt. That's probably a lot of the thing why we don't forgive ourselves is because of our own pride and our own ego. But to realize, hey, it's gonna happen. And be able to move on from that. That's that's a hard one.
Alex Becker: I think the little God player in all of us wants to pay for something. Like we want to like, all right, well, I screwed up. Now I should like pay for this. And I think that's so hard for us. Like the free gift of salvation is so hard for most of us to comprehend because like
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Alex Becker: we we won't hardly accept a free gift from, you know, our friend or our family, you know, much less, you know, like, surely I gotta pay something for this. And so I think even for our own selves, like. Man, we just feel like we need to, yeah, pay some penance or do s you know, do something to Make things right.
Kent Holdeman: So how do you distinguish showing mercy to a person from tolerating the teaching or the conduct that's destroying that person? I mean, at some level each one of us are you know, we we Have conversations at least. Have relationships with people maybe that we wish could see something differently.
Alex Becker: I don't know that I have the answer to that, but I I do know one thing that there's times when you have to cut it off. You have to cut off relationships, you have to separate yourself, put some distance between you and them if if they're too toxic or you know. I and I don't know. That that's challenging. I think it can be done in love and I think it has to be done in love. I don't think you can do it just, you know, out of spite or anger or unforgiveness or, you know, offense, but I do think And that's always a challenge to know what that should look like or how you can do that. But I do feel like there's probably times when you you need to do that. So I don't know that that doesn't really answer your question, Cam, but but you're right. There are I think most people are gonna have s somebody in their life that Gonna be tough to navigate that relationship with, for sure.
Kent Holdeman: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: you need discernment and you have to keep coming back and checking your own heart, making and making sure that it's in alignment with the gospel because, you know Jesus doesn't call us to run away from all hard situations, you know,
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: just 'cause they're they're tough. That's not we don't have the freedom as a believer to just run away f when things get tough or get hard. And I don't know, may maybe I maybe I'll maybe I do that too quickly.
Kent Holdeman: I I don't know how well this plays in here. I had a conversation today with somebody. And they're they're quite hurt by some decisions that are being made. I'm trying to keep this really generic here, but sorry about that. I have to in this situation. And they're decisions that had to be made, unfortunately. And my first instinct was to
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: bring up all the reasons why this had to be this way.
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: Because in my mind it was really clear. And I'm sitting here thinking, well, you know, if you would have done this, if you'd have done that, you know, it wouldn't be this way.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: And Thankfully, I had some time to think.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: and I and I think God did this for me because believe me, I I don't go down this road very easily on my own. But He helped me to see where this person's head is at right now. And it's it's it's in a really painful place.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: And a lot of the things that are being said If you want to take them that way, it could be taken as rejection, as hurt hurtful. And and just to understand, okay, this is where this
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: person is at right now. The facts right now probably don't matter a whole lot. You know,
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: me coming in there with all the facts
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: of w at least the the reality the way I see it, probably won't actually build this relationship and to understand where this person is at and and be caring and and s and I mean honestly reach out. that's what I want to do. I that can be hard in itself because you don't know what to say. You don't know how to because it doesn't make any sense to me, you know? I it's hard for me to get it.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: Say your problem can't is your logical. That's really I think what it is because and I think most men are like that, that we want to analyze it and understand it and then apply logic and fix it. That's that feels great.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: But what you were just saying as you were speaking, it it clicked with me and it made sense. I'm like, yes, we need to admit and acknowledge that life is really messy, that I whatever situation you're talking about, that this person is hurt. And whether the decisions were right or wrong, whether they were made in good faith or in spite or whatever it is. None of like you said, none of that really matters a whole lot 'cause what is real to that person is their hurt. That's the most real thing to them. And to be able to acknowledge that and it because I here's what I think. I think when you're that person and you're hurting and somebody comes along and just tries to fix it, it makes you mad. It's not what you need. You need somebody to come along and say, Look, not necessarily even agree with you, but to say, Look, I know you're hurting and I'm sorry for that. And that's about all there is. But sometimes that feels pretty good. Just to know that they care enough about you to say, Look, I know I know it hurts. And there's really nothing I can do but, you know, I'm I'm here and I'm sorry. I don't know. That's hard to do for a man though, because like you said, you have the answers and they're they're right.
Kent Holdeman: fix this. the thing of it is I know that this person is very smart and I know that when they have time to sit down and think through it, they're gonna they're gonna understand. It's gonna make sense. it's funny how we humans work. and I I think in a lot of ways I'm actually the same way. If somebody does something to me and the closer they are the worse this is. But somebody disrespects me or treats me in a way that treads on that one little nerve that I have that can't be tread on. I want And when somebody hears me and acknowledges that, and I don't want to act like we're all a bunch of snowflakes, I don't feel that way. But when that is heard, then that like gives me freedom to let go of it almost or in a way and And I and I'm saying this mostly from I don't think that when I'm hurt I need to be trying to figure out if other people are treating me the right way. That's not where I'm coming from. But
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: I do believe that for me, l working with a situation like that, I definitely have to think of it that way.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, so I have another question, kinda down the line of forgiveness. So You use the term like if somebody disrespects you. So it's one thing when somebody hurts you or disrespects you, and then you have to deal with that. But I had a situation, I hadn't been married long, and somebody disrespected my wife. And I was teaching school and one of my students, at least I believe
Kent Holdeman: Okay.
Frank Koehn: they disrespected my wife. It was very real to me that that had happened. And it wasn't you, Alex. I just remembered that I taught you in school. I I don't think about that hardly ever. goodness.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: Now I wonder if I should even s tell this story.
Alex Becker: Maybe I can give you some context now. I don't know.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, but somebody somebody said something snarky to my wife and to me it was just disrespectful. And I made that poor kid go out and run until they almost dropped from exhaustion. I I just went nuclear on And later I felt awful 'cause I like I still I still think they disrespect my wife, but I was like, that was a little extreme. And so how does forgiveness work in a situation like that? You know, I and I feel I feel that same feeling with my kids sometimes. Like If I think somebody is threatening my kids or man, I'll I got this feeling in me that I could just go scorched earth on So how does how does forgiveness play in with our our instincts to protect as men?
Alex Becker: You opened up a whole new can of worms. 'Cause now we're gonna go into the whole non resistant.
Frank Koehn: man, I hadn't even thought yeah, I I didn't mean to open that can up 'cause that's a can.
Alex Becker: Yeah. I think you did the best thing you possibly could have done and I think the only thing and the right thing to go nuclear on the kid for disrespecting your wife. I think that's what I think that's exactly what needed to happen. yeah, I think that what kind of man are you if you don't do that? You know, if you don't stand up for your wife and your kids. I mean that's that's no kind of man at all. I'm sorry. I don't think that you can say that This whole idea of well I'm just gonna just let people disrespect my family and that's somehow godly, get out of here. Nothing godly about that. You're just showing yourself a weak man hiding behind a hiding behind a you know, whatchall it? Like a whatever. your
Frank Koehn: Well, what you're saying, Alex, has to do with that justice word that we were that I included in my ramble my at the beginning, because it does seem like there's something built into us that in when we see injustice, we want to do something about it. And I think that there is a time for a man to do something about injustice. I think God calls us to do that in some circumstances for sure.
Alex Becker: Hundred percent. That is not that is something I think that is like innate within our the within the the heart. And I think the more you love God and you love
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Alex Becker: his righteousness and you love his kingdom and you realize that sin is the curse, you know, the curse is is like messed everything up, the more you hate all of those unrighteous things and the more you
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: you should. You sh yeah, I don't think I think the more The closer you are to God, the more that kind of stuff bothers you. Unrighteousness, unjustice should bother you. I the Christians should be like they talk about what is it, the just or social warriors or like just what what's the terminology that they use? Like, you know, people that will fight for other people, you know, in society. Like Christians should be that. I think the it's sad that the church has like given that role over to the government because I think, you know, centuries ago it was a church that was caring for the downtrodden, the poor. the the hurting, you know, standing up for those that, you know, standing against, you know, slavery and you know, we should care about all that kind of stuff.
Frank Koehn: Right.
Alex Becker: It should anger you. 'Cause I I I don't think God's neutral about that stuff. I think it angers the heart of God. I think he's
Frank Koehn: absolutely.
Alex Becker: you know. So I don't know. There's this big controversy about that pastor over in was it Texas that went nuclear on that guy that was threatening his family? Did you see that? So
Frank Koehn: Yeah. I saw a little bit about I don't know really know the story.
Alex Becker: Yeah. So I mean there that it does it does it does like I guess it is always question like where's the line, you know, you know, between you know, maybe he crossed that line. I don't know.
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Alex Becker: I mean I think if your family is in danger or threatened in any way, I I think that's your responsibility as a man to protect them. Do whatever you know.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, I think so. I think you're right.
Alex Becker: So we should talk about non resistance, that'd a fun one. Yeah.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, we need to have an ol a whole episode on that. Definitely.
Kent Holdeman: yeah. That that one we we're probably all mostly on the same page on that one. I'm curious if we would have any any differences. That would be interesting.
Frank Koehn: We definitely need to spend an hour talking about it. I I I
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: think so.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Alex Becker: We probably we probably might be on the same page, on one hand,
Kent Holdeman: Mm.
Alex Becker: but for differing reasons. You know what I mean? Like But that'd be fun to see kind of where we all stand on that. That would be fun, actually. That'd be a lot of fun. man. Cause I've been on a journey with that, you know, when you're taught, you're taught that nonresistance is like the crowning virtue of Christianity. And then but the question is well, what does that really mean? Like what does
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: really mean 'cause I I don't
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Alex Becker: see non resistance as just I won't sign up and go to fight in the in the military, you know, fight for my country. I I think non resistance actually plays out on a practical level every day for most of us and we probably fail in those areas more often than than some of those ones that we make the big you know, the big areas like the like military service or whatever. Probably less of a deal than you know.
Kent Holdeman: You can bring
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: this thing you can bring even non resistance home? Wow.
Alex Becker: yeah, it's starts it's probably starts in the home. You see the wars in my house some days, man. I mean
Kent Holdeman: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Frank Koehn: you better be careful, Alex.
Alex Becker: I'm trying to teach my kids how to become pacifists.
Frank Koehn: You you don't quite have a PV?
Kent Holdeman: I'm trying to think I can't think of a single one of your kids that that would fall under the pacifist mode. I mean
Alex Becker: That's the problem.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, I think all of your kids I think all of your kids are genetically connected to you, Alex.
Alex Becker: That's
Kent Holdeman: Ha
Alex Becker: right. None of them none
Kent Holdeman: ha ha.
Alex Becker: of them fall under the pacifist you know title. So that's what we're working on.
Kent Holdeman: But if you wanna know the truth, I I don't think my kids strayed very far from like they're I'm just amazed at how opinionated they are sometimes.
Frank Koehn: Ha I'm not.
Alex Becker: Not a bit. I'm not a bit. Does surprise me not a not at least. Not not a little.
Frank Koehn: shit.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: we
Alex Becker: so Kent, real quick, when do you turn fifty?
Kent Holdeman: Next a week from Wednesday. Yeah.
Alex Becker: Week from Wednesday. How about then?
Kent Holdeman: I think. Probably. Something like that.
Frank Koehn: Well, I'm looking forward to coming up there and celebrating with you. I I just I'm so enthused about that.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, I'm looking forward to it too.
Alex Becker: These two. Yeah, I can't wait. It's gonna be a good it's gonna be a good time.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, it
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: is. So say one more time, Kent. I think we're we're winding up here maybe, but when is when is Pastor Tremor coming up? Is that the twenty
Kent Holdeman: It's the twenty fourth, isn't it? Let me look at my yeah.
Frank Koehn: That's when we're gonna record it? Yeah. So yeah.
Alex Becker: Yeah, twenty four.
Kent Holdeman: So so that one'll come out either on the twenty eighth or the fourth, I guess, depending on how it shakes out. Yeah. The
Frank Koehn: How it all lines up. Yeah. Yeah, well, like I said earlier, I'm really enthused about about having him on.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, that's gonna be good. He's he's good to hang out with pretty much any time.
Alex Becker: It's
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Alex Becker: a wealth of knowledge, man.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. Never been one to really hold back a whole lot.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: É reoferendo.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, that's true. yeah.
Frank Koehn: All right. Well it's been good once again.
Alex Becker: Yeah, guys have a good rest of
Kent Holdeman: yeah, same.
Alex Becker: evening. He'll take care.
Frank Koehn: Yeah. Talk to you next time.
