Vasileios Basios: from complexity to consciousness

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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Imaginal Inspirations podcast with me, David Larimer, where I talk to my guests about experiences people and books that have shaped their lives in work.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You may know that imaginal cells play a key role in the metamorphosis of the caterpillar into a butterfly which is also the Greek symbol for the soul.
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[SPEAKER_00]: These cells are dormant in the caterpillar but at a critical point of development they create the new form and structure which becomes the butterfly.
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[SPEAKER_00]: My guest today is my very old friend, Dr. Vasilyos Vasilyos, who is a senior researcher and the physics of complex systems, the University of Brussels, with over 25 years of experience in research and coaching.
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[SPEAKER_00]: His interdisciplinary work focuses on self-organisation, emergence in complex matter, complementarity and the foundations of complex systems.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He was mentored by Nobel laureates, Eliya Prigagin and Gregor Nicolese, and he received his PhD from the University of Brussels after studying cybernetics with John S. Nicolese.
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[SPEAKER_00]: His research interests include foundations with complexity science, emergence in complex matter, nonlinear dynamics, and chaos in biological information processing, computability, and the logic of extended Bayesian inference.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He's participated in several research initiatives, including European Space Agency's Complex Matter Program and EU projects, such as Pythagoras, One and Two, and Families One and Two.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He's deeply interested in history of scientific ideas and their role in transforming science beyond the mechanistic worldview.
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[SPEAKER_00]: His work aims to bring insights from complex systems science to consciousness studies,
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[SPEAKER_00]: And in 2023, his research team received the inaugural Linder Geo Bryant Noetic Sciences of Search Prize for their study on detecting deviations and random activity as indicators and non-local consciousness correlates beyond the brain.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So Dr. Bassios, he's been a speaker for the scientific and medical network and co-chair in board member and he's member currently of a Galileo Commission steering team and a trusty of the international consciousness research laboratories.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And by contributing to complexity and consciousness research in a variety of formats from pollcast books,
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[SPEAKER_00]: peer-reviewed papers.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He aspires to advance knowledge in this evolving field.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to this episode of Imaginal Inspiration.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let me go straight to the first question, which is a shaping moment involving your choice of work.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and high high day with again, and thanks for the introduction there, sometimes your good friends know you better than you know yourself, that was a very complete and I was not aware that I have all these things in my CV up there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, the beginning it was a fascination, and I think it
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[SPEAKER_01]: blessed to have my family valuing education as something that is one important, not only practical thing for the life, but also value in it's set to know it is as important as being good, because if you don't know you don't know how to be good, so it was a complete set of values that there was kind of important to the young students and the young children at that time,
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[SPEAKER_01]: My uncle had an educator, so he was always playing with in the class, with experiments, simple experiments.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And these were fascinating for me, because these things would never happen at home.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Things that would blow up and get out of smoking.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So these things, or things that you don't expect, it's like a very simple, good stuff.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then this happened also in nature where you can see the transformations, the caterpillars that you said that have been watching.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you liked that image, I know.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, because as a child also, I have been, during the examifications, I have been watching insects and transformations of nature and sometimes the whole family was looking at for me and I was watching the caterpillars or something like that, he didn't somewhere.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I have seen it as a formation, not the whole thing, but the little thing that disappeared and became a cocoon, and then left.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So for me, all these magical moments, there were magical in the old-fashioned sense of the world.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Beyond the phenomena, there's something that moves them, something big.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's, and then of course, when I wanted to study geometry and physics and ancient stuff, the classics, as I say, I was fascinated by that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the decisive moment that determined to physics, modern physics, and when it was, I say, academic physics was, I guess, the passage of my father around 1516.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was a very useful moment, I mean, a very easy action to that moment, and I wanted to find out what happened once and for all.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And explain that, I'm still struggling.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Aren't we all?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then my next question is about influential mentors or teachers, and I know that you had several of those.
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[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, they're a couple of them were mentioned in the introduction.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And one kind of guidance that they gave you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Again, they reinforce the belief that if you don't know, you cannot be a good person and you should combine the value and service to the others with knowledge, deep knowledge.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Not academic credentials or achievements, but how things work, how things are, what is behind the things.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It left something out, which I discovered later in my life, to be good with yourself also, yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And love yourself, not on only know myself, but we good and accept that we are not perfect and we have also our little nasty side.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But that kind came later.
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[SPEAKER_01]: These mentors were enforcing their idols, they were kind of heroes, and they were many.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was remembering yesterday because I was just showing to some students as a simple geometry.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Construction came back to me when I first learned this theorem.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was from a guy who was writing papers for the French Academy of Sciences and also for a very demanding mathematical general, which was called Asterisk.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it was... That was the first...
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[SPEAKER_01]: The Asterisk.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know what came?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, they had some kind of humor, because they were called the third ball-by-key.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_01]: From a very great French general who was very tight and very strong.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so they wanted an absolute trigger.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he was writing that from the exile island, because he was exiled as a communist.
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[SPEAKER_01]: or as if we were in an island in Greece during the dictatorship and I remember him and she said that I mean he was a big ill and knife she could command the whole mathematical universe and he will send us to projective spaces or all kinds of things even when we are 17-18 years or trying to get to because of the college.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, this guy just remembers him two or three days ago because I had to use this little thing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And there are so many rigors in, of course, other people is teaching students time, where they just engage you with what they learn.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'll allow you to be like them and say, look, it's not something that I know because I sweat and I spit blood over that, but it's for everybody and you can do it, as I can do it, you can understand this, you can learn that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So these people who kind of embrace you and thank you on step further, I imagine they were all of them as my teachers, equally to the people like Brigadier Zinole, mybios or Nicolies, the most of them, that they taught me quite advanced techniques, so to speak.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, tell us more about mybios because I know he was the closest maybe to you and how he influenced your thinking.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When he was the one who introduced us, remember, in Olympia in 1991, he was a Buddha of the Suburbia.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's lovely phrase.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a book also, because I was brought to him by a common friend for TV, who was a little clever, a lot clever, and then she said, you have to meet this person, because he has something that you are missing, which is how to know yourself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you go around like Dr. Fast to straighten your face, and everything, and you pick up and you swallow all kinds of.
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[SPEAKER_01]: information and it's anything from books to pieces from of of the newspapers.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You just take them all in and read them and put them in your head and you try to synthesize them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But he has to that he knows how to learn about yourself meditation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I knew about that but I didn't know what the truth was all about, so we started talking when we met in a kind of gathering in San Lono, for Tini.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it was kind of funny because we started talking about our, he asked me that you, who is your aspiring figure at that time, it was Dildano Bruno, and still, of course,
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[SPEAKER_01]: I loved all these people who went against the system, so to speak.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, and he was telling me about Socrates, and then we realized that, so he gave, the first meeting was like a comparison of lives, like Paralyze of the Roman Plutarcha.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then we realized that he made me realized that it's not,
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[SPEAKER_01]: the rebellious act that is important, it is the service of this act of any act to humanity to broaden the consciousness, because it would have been a waste if they did not produce something in their lives, most socrates and Bruno's, it was not just a
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[SPEAKER_01]: a coragius heroic act of self-defiance into both cases, it was with the timid and designed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that gave me chills, because how can you design your own demis?
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[SPEAKER_01]: The answer that struck me is that because they know that death is not real.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Once you know that you can go there without any problem.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If you have finished the work that you have been set yourself to or You know the stars made you So in that sense, in your ceiling And in that that's at the same time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He said, but you know something Follow the the dictum of a sent Agustine.
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[SPEAKER_01]: God give me saint who but not yet
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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yes, give me chance to tear, I think he said as well, because he was he was quite active and you know, with women in early stage of his career, but not yet.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's great, that's it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So he's he at the same time, he made me teal and laugh and realize that the whole thing is
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's more joyful, it's not a sacrifice, it's not that it's just things that happened and again the values of these two people had and also the variety, there were Christ figures and then again we said,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so that was another collapse of stereotypes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They were of my glasses, because I didn't hear it all the time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You were having realized that promises was before, as a figure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I mean this had this catalytic effect in me to break.
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[SPEAKER_01]: barriers and go beyond and beyond, which is something that's hugely valuable.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's really life-forming, isn't it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he did not do that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He was inducing that to people.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He was not asking what he was not doing anything because he had done it to himself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: people that could be induced to do that, they will cut the lives of things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I like the catalyzer, and then let's go on to some books that have shaped your life and thinking, and I'm sure they're plenty of them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We had the therapy days to talk about books in the front yard.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is something that we share, like being bookworms.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What the book comes transform to from the caterpillar to butterfly?
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[SPEAKER_01]: The book comes transform to?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, inside.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if you're looking at it like that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: but I love reading and sometimes it's a joyful thing sometimes the escape sometimes it's both sometimes it's transcendence the first book was the sleepwalkers.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, by Kustler, by Kustler, by Kustler, by Kustler, yeah, and that came to me twice as if it was like a synchronicity.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I really, when I was younger, in my, trying to understand what's happening, and Kustler, and then I read the act of creation, which is a big book, and all my friends were making fun of me carrying it around in the phone.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I have both books, I think.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The other one is a kid, so I could really do it on the beach.
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[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of the years you used, and then in the end of my graduate studies, I had the kind of crisis about the mechanistic work you didn't work and couldn't explain many things, and then I discovered
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[SPEAKER_01]: Other faces of modern physics that they were dealing with consciousness, but nobody had them in the front.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They were all kind of secretly whispered in the corridors.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that moment I came back to this book by accident.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It really followed me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was going to read another book and it came to me and then I stayed for a whole night and reading this and other books next to it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that was kind of my decisive book.
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[SPEAKER_01]: that, again, followed on my hands with the set of synchronicities.
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[SPEAKER_01]: T-mails is the book that it's like my little Bible.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It is always with me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's a small book.
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[SPEAKER_01]: not fascinate me, and I find refuge in the description of the cosmos, because it's not dialogue, it's just the description of the Platonic world, and it's so rich, and so a middle would say, it's an empty text, that's why it's rich, it's empty, because you can project and it does in other words.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not easy to write an empty text, you have to be at least later, oh.
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[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's true.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, for a moment to be Plato, and then back to Norma.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, so every time I read T-Mails, I go to the other side and I go pink.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But there also you see, you know, better than me, that there are books and books that nurture your intellect and your mind, your spirit.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Books that are fun, like science fiction, I love science fiction, which is Stanislav Lem, and all the modern problems of artificial intelligence,
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[SPEAKER_01]: The extensions of the human blood, the transhumanism and all that have been dealt with him.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There were one who wrote Solaris, the famous movie.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I enjoy this as an escape as a creative thing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And for example, Herman Hesse, without being natural description or fantasy, it works my heart and make me feel so different.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love her, sir.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There I used to teach some of that to my pupils at Winchester College.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a lunge of that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, well, the one that was interesting from their point of view was the prodigy, which is a fairly early book, Unterdem Rat, it is in German under the wheel.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, these were very high-part young boys whose parents had huge expectations for them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so they found that really quite revealing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, and then Damien was another one, and then Stephen Wolfe was living with him.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And not just in goldment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And to that, that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Siddhartha, absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, the class B game.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, he's a real graduate.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So the class B game.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The class B game reminded me it was when I entered the scientific medical network.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That was the aim of that came to me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: These people play the class B game.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When I saw you in a bit of panic and Martin and the old card, so to speak, you know, talking about future
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's a new framing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I've had this feeling that I look at these people know how to play the class a bit.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I have to go close to them, you know.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So these kinds of ideas don't get caught, of course.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's another classic that was from my childhood.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so book have always been there and like now that it is reading, you know, electronic books mostly on the tablet stuff.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I based the smell and the feeling of...
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Old leather bindings and things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like going into a second hand book shop.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, let's move on to sort of key moments of insight in your work, especially in relation to the nature of consciousness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the very first is the end of mechanistic thinking, which brought me to bring us in schools, Neoplatonic Academy, I mean, as I would say.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because he gathered together all people from interdisciplinary and transdisciplinary fashion to work together.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that was a great message for me that you cannot deal with
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[SPEAKER_01]: You need specialization in the first stage, and then you need to breathe in all the other specializations of your fellow colleagues in order to study something.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why in the disciplinary science of consciousness, the science of consciousness comes again as the socratic know theyself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: if you want to know nature, and we are part of the nature, how come to not know ourselves and who are we, why are we different, and what sense we are different.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We are, and we are not.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, this, um...
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[SPEAKER_01]: line of singing and research brought me to the limits of mechanistic and materialistic physics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I had to study why the mathematics fail and I met Gerdil through the paradoxes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: of logic, and that's why now I love quantum logic, which is kind of meta-gib-dabri and playground, and that's why we have a very good collaboration in French with the Japanese guy, Hoki, or Pagi, or Gunzi, that he was also part of this conference in 1991, sort of time anyway, so you can find that quantum logic is a logic of processes, the logic of humor, the
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[SPEAKER_01]: And there's something which you cannot ever, ever compute.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, China is one of another one of my heroes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it algorithmic complexity, why you cannot know everything with one go, with one system, with one set of axioms.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then the same thing goes to, I mean, this complex detranslates to matter itself.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, there, how come matter is not participating in something bigger than itself?
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[SPEAKER_01]: If mine is participating, something bigger than itself,
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[SPEAKER_01]: And if this something beaker than Martin, beaker than mind, then logic, is this something, is there a common ground?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Are they the Yunus Mundus, the one substance, or part of one substance, maybe something more?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that brought me to learn about the pair.
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[SPEAKER_01]: the previous thing, and I'm a, and with Kestler also had this, this question, on the ways, whether mind and matter are cause, causally connected or correlated.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You have two schools, one is a democratian, where you say, they reduce everything to matter.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, consciousness is just, well, molecules bouncing around, the other one is more, the Pythagorean, which is everything is number.
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[SPEAKER_01]: the Pythagorean, not Pythagoras' own, and then the other one is going to be the Hermetic Alchemical Brunian stuff that they would say.
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[SPEAKER_01]: These are both part of one unity.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The chemical one world, the absolute one, whatever.
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[SPEAKER_01]: which is more pizagorean than the pizagoreans believed in.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is I think that that is what can motivate and can give us a lot of fruitful investigators in the today, in the already established young science of consciousness.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Is it causal that do we produce this or are we relate
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[SPEAKER_01]: in a cosmic harmony, an aliveness that just happens that my mouse works like that because the spirit is in communion with the spirit of David, so I have to respond like that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But everything is done also in the spirit, so that in the part of the kind of kind of...
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm very, very interesting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then how does your understanding of consciousness influence the way you live your life?
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[SPEAKER_01]: In varying ways, if I go back to my life in the beginning, it was a very instinctual thing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I want to learn and Costlessness was driving me in very in an instinctive way, you know Go and sit with this teacher, go do this thing
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then there was always, there's some kind of contradiction of something that doesn't fit, there's always something more that this consciousness, whatever it is, is like a garden angel, that guides you towards that unknown and enriching you by understanding or assimilating it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: other times it restrained my ego or my dark side so it was forbidding, don't do that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So again, in stick to that, this is not correct, this is going to hurt your friend or whatever.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It is always something which tells you
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[SPEAKER_00]: what to do and draw you there without knowing that it is and then something which prevents you of okay so it has a stimulating and inhibitory effect that's very that's very interesting and so that you help that helps you navigate
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I think it's continuously through our life and beyond.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This breathing is more than us.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is what connects us to the UNUS bonders, because everything breathes together.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So this consciousness, our little consciousness, my little consciousness, I don't want to talk about you, because... No, very crazy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's microcosm.
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[SPEAKER_01]: My little consciousness is breathing, little breathes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: A bigger question is, we're also breathing, bigger breaths, and then the whole onus mundus is dancing like that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So when I say that, yeah, it's inhibitory and stimulating, it's sort of stimulating and inhibiting.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not done.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's no outcome or achievement or a milestone that you have to do.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is going on through and after.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure there's a cyclical like we were talking about last weekend.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The breathing in and breathing out.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of the cycles that is part of our lives.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it continues.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It is part of love.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In my understanding, this breathing is love.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It gives you the freedom to expand, and then contracts, it's not only freedom to do anything, and it's not only obligates for the services, it's these both things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's an expansion and contraction.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think that is life.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That is life.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So is there an equal talk proverb that you live by that you'd like to share with our listeners?
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[SPEAKER_01]: for the moment is what I like.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was written by some naughty students on the graffiti, but I think it's from the cloud of one knowing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It was written on the physics department wall and I love it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I still see it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They made it for proper graffiti now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: OK. An answer to questions, unless dangerous, then unquestioned answers.
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[SPEAKER_00]: On, yes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Very good on the question, don't say it's exactly.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So the answer to questions opens you up, whereas the other closes you down.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And blinds you to investigations, so it's better to move on with doubt and openness and serenity saying, okay, I don't know, we will know, or if we don't know, it doesn't matter, we will then say that, I know, this is it, and final, right, and this goes to the religious and to the scientific people at the same time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, and then my final question, Vasily, is any advice you'd give yourself?
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[SPEAKER_01]: to love more myself, because as I told you, I was brought up as most of the people in the West at that time, that you have done something wrong anyway.
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[SPEAKER_01]: As a student, as a student, so you didn't study enough, you didn't do that enough, you have to do that, you have to prove yourself, you have to perform.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that was a burden which was very good and educated at certain moments, but throughout life I wish it was not to me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but you are loved as you are, once you are born, you have your place in this world.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to fight or anything, but it is better if it is fun to expand, it is fun to learn, it is fun to learn.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The service is not an obligation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The service is fun, and you can do that with great friends, but you will meet in life and you don't have to prove yourself to them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They will accept you and you will accept them from what they are.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Perfect.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for joining me on the imaginal inspirations.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, my dear friend.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.