Could Simulation Theory Solve the Fermi Paradox?

WEBVTT
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.875
you can't beat somebody who has full control of your reality.
00:00:02.875 --> 00:00:08.157
imagine we're just, like, the entire existence is just on, like, a, an alien version of a floppy disk.
00:00:08.157 --> 00:00:11.307
Upload me to the matrix, upload me to the simulation.
00:00:11.346 --> 00:00:25.507
I just, I don't have an issue with that we are far more likely to be living in a simulation from a more advanced civilization than that we are simply life Hello and welcome to Entropy Rising, a podcast dedicated to exploring science and the future of humanity.
00:00:25.728 --> 00:00:26.527
I'm your host Jacob.
00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:31.611
And I'm Lucas, and today we're going to be talking about a popular solution to the Fermi paradox, simulation theory.
00:00:31.757 --> 00:00:33.468
Yeah, this is gonna be a fun one.
00:00:33.518 --> 00:00:42.167
I wanna talk about it not just in terms of the Fermi paradox, but also just explore the idea of simulation hypothesis, that the universe itself might be simulated.
00:00:42.188 --> 00:00:48.398
And then also talk about how that could be a solution to the Fermi paradox and whether it actually is or isn't.
00:00:48.707 --> 00:00:48.898
Yeah.
00:00:48.898 --> 00:00:49.537
I have opinions on that.
00:00:49.557 --> 00:00:54.768
Before we jump in, we should talk about what simulation theory actually is to the people who don't know yet.
00:00:55.048 --> 00:01:06.359
It's pretty much talking about as civilizations advance and computing power becomes more infinite, simulations of humanity in different parameters and their ancestors will probably become more and more likely.
00:01:06.492 --> 00:01:06.733
Yeah.
00:01:06.733 --> 00:01:08.263
That's definitely one way to look at it.
00:01:08.272 --> 00:01:10.763
There's… That's kinda the idea of, like, an ancestor simulation.
00:01:11.072 --> 00:01:12.832
And like you said, you kinda hit the nail on the head.
00:01:13.593 --> 00:01:28.063
it's very possible that as we get older and become a more advanced civilization, we might wanna simulate periods of our past to see maybe how things could play out differently or maybe to answer questions that we haven't been able to answer today and try to match that to our reality.
00:01:28.352 --> 00:01:33.212
And you mentioned that it might be more likely we live in a simulation than we don't.
00:01:33.352 --> 00:01:33.793
Yes.
00:01:33.822 --> 00:01:44.250
Well, the reason why I say that is because imagine, civilizations don't hit a point where they're blocked and where they continue becoming more and more technologically advanced.
00:01:44.739 --> 00:02:04.873
It would actually make more sense that if they could run hundreds of thousands to millions to trillions of simulations testing all different kinds of physics and different, scenarios, that we are far more likely to be living in a simulation from a more advanced civilization than that we are simply life that became.
00:02:04.992 --> 00:02:08.293
Yeah, I like that argument from numbers, and that's an argument I see come up a lot.
00:02:08.362 --> 00:02:15.682
And like you said, you effectively argue that there can only be one base reality, but that base reality could spawn effectively infinite simulations.
00:02:15.733 --> 00:02:26.168
And even if that base reality only were to spawn two simulations, for example, that now means you have a two out of three chance of being a simulation, and there's no reason to think that they wouldn't do hundreds, maybe thousands of these simulations.
00:02:26.582 --> 00:02:34.163
And there's also no reason to think that other civilizations may also develop and run their own ancestor simulations, which we may or may not be included in.
00:02:34.163 --> 00:02:36.782
So that's where kind of the number argument comes from.
00:02:36.782 --> 00:02:44.782
It seems to argue that if computation really is that easy to come by in the future, it's easy to imagine there'd be a lot of simulations.
00:02:44.793 --> 00:02:50.413
So if you're just randomly picking a number, the likelihood is you're gonna come up being in a simulation rather than not.
00:02:50.733 --> 00:02:55.453
Yes, and this is also where it kinda ties into being a solution to the Fermi paradox.
00:02:55.492 --> 00:02:59.432
And in my opinion, it definitely could be one.
00:02:59.453 --> 00:03:14.622
Because if you are in an isolated simulation, by, some kind of race that didn't want there to be aliens around you, they just wanted to simulate a single living, planet, then there would be no aliens, and that could be a big reason why we don't see any.
00:03:14.832 --> 00:03:23.413
I do agree to that, that would be a solution to the Fermi paradox, but I have an issue with the simulation hypothesis when it's proposed as a solution to the Fermi paradox.
00:03:23.413 --> 00:03:24.543
I don't think it's impossible.
00:03:24.893 --> 00:03:27.883
It's just, I don't think it's fully thought out all the time.
00:03:27.953 --> 00:03:28.362
Mm-hmm.
00:03:28.402 --> 00:03:50.312
For one, I really think it just boots the question of the Fermi paradox up to another level of reality, because if you're doing an ancestor simulation and you want it to be accurate, then if you discovered aliens in your life, and if you look up to the stars and you see evidence of extraterrestrial life, then that would need to be included in the simulation to make it an accurate simulation.
00:03:50.802 --> 00:03:54.152
And you don't need to simulate their entire civilization, right?
00:03:54.152 --> 00:04:02.752
Like, we're here on Earth, and you don't need to come up with an entire alien civilization and simulate it in full detail just for us to see the effects of, like a Dyson swarm.
00:04:02.793 --> 00:04:06.193
You could just put some Dyson swarms up just to get that same effect.
00:04:06.203 --> 00:04:21.233
So unless that's the criteria you were testing, how would we evolve differently if we were alone, then other than that, I think you would necessarily need to include the evidence of life in the galaxy if it actually existed in your level of reality too.
00:04:21.572 --> 00:04:23.012
that is definitely a good point.
00:04:23.069 --> 00:04:26.839
if it is a simulation, the, the parameters would be very specific.
00:04:27.139 --> 00:04:27.420
Correct.
00:04:27.576 --> 00:04:39.415
it's like it could be that they just didn't want something else, or like you said, it could be that it's, building into something that they could just show little glimpses of to create the illusion of that.
00:04:39.925 --> 00:04:45.526
Because if it's infinite, like the amount of simulations that they can run, then who's to say it, it could be whatever they want.
00:04:45.536 --> 00:04:53.966
Our, our entire understanding of the world around us and, the, the things outside of us could be completely manipulated to their liking.
00:04:54.065 --> 00:05:03.076
Well, assuming that they exist in a finite universe, which we're gonna go off the assumption of, 'cause there are some reasons to think maybe that their civilization and their universe could be different than ours.
00:05:03.146 --> 00:05:03.396
Mm-hmm.
00:05:03.406 --> 00:05:13.355
They, for example, could be running simulations to experience how different laws of physics lead to different universes, and because of that, they may have basically infinite computation and infinite energy.
00:05:13.596 --> 00:05:15.596
Entropy might not exist in their level of reality.
00:05:15.935 --> 00:05:19.495
Uh, but for the sake of argument, let's just assume that their reality is the same as ours.
00:05:19.545 --> 00:05:19.836
Okay.
00:05:19.846 --> 00:05:21.925
' Cause I think that's a Absolutely.
00:05:22.045 --> 00:05:24.625
Then they don't have infinite resources.
00:05:24.675 --> 00:05:28.776
They could do a lot of simulations, but presumably they're still limited by computation.
00:05:28.904 --> 00:05:37.214
Now, they could, of course, run simulations to explore how their civilization would've developed if aliens didn't exist, and maybe that's the one we're in.
00:05:37.444 --> 00:05:49.134
But if the people who made the simulation did have evidence of life in their universe, then I think it's way more likely that all of the simulations or at least most of the simulations they ran would have evidence of that life as well.
00:05:49.334 --> 00:06:00.154
Because if you're trying to simulate how would society be different if that plague didn't happen, how would society be different if this invention happened instead of this one, then you wanna keep every other parameter the same.
00:06:00.665 --> 00:06:14.971
And so it seems to me that you're much more likely to be in one of those simulations where they keep the evidence of extraterrestrial life to not contaminate the parameters, and there would only be a small subset of simulations where the actual parameter itself was extraterrestrial life didn't exist.
00:06:14.971 --> 00:06:33.326
I can definitely agree with that, uh, because, if they're working at least within the same, like, realm of what we are in right now, there would be, like, not an infinite universe, but, an incredibly vast one, then of course there would be way more simulations running the fact that life probably does exist.
00:06:33.726 --> 00:06:50.057
And then us actually being in the small subset where they're running it that they don't at all Would be far less likely than even the simulation hypothesis existing in the first Yeah, and that's kinda the reason why I don't necessarily think it's a good solution to the Fermi paradox in terms of an ancestor simulation.
00:06:50.358 --> 00:06:50.577
Mm.
00:06:50.608 --> 00:07:02.755
One other way you could look at the simulation hypothesis, though, is instead of coming at it from the angle of the ancestor hypothesis, which is that the people running the simulation is basically humanity in the future trying to look back at our past.
00:07:02.935 --> 00:07:09.925
Because in that case, most of the parameters need to match up to the base level of reality, minus the few things that they're tweaking to explore, right?
00:07:10.375 --> 00:07:30.057
But maybe you could come at it from, for example, a zoo hypothesis explanation, where you have a species that's expanding across a galaxy, and when they run into a primitive species, instead of just annihilating them, perhaps they preserve them in a simulation . That way they can keep that species around, but also take over their solar system and get access to those material resources.
00:07:30.468 --> 00:07:40.920
Maybe they keep them running in that simulation indefinitely, just to preserve that culture, or maybe at some point in the future they'll, reconstitute them into the real world and give them some, resources if they decide to.
00:07:41.110 --> 00:07:52.230
But that's one solution, and in that case, they might decide to omit their existence, in which case you would end up finding yourself, if you were in one of these simulations, looking up at the stars and wondering where is everybody.
00:07:52.581 --> 00:07:54.151
that is a crazy concept.
00:07:54.170 --> 00:08:03.370
In, in this way that they would, take them over, would it sort of be like a Matryoshka brain situation where they would upload the actual physical bodies, like into a computer system?
00:08:03.370 --> 00:08:09.600
Or would they be just simulating what they saw as the primitive civilization, but still eradicate them?
00:08:09.901 --> 00:08:11.341
I guess it really just depends.
00:08:11.341 --> 00:08:12.990
You could do it both ways, realistically.
00:08:12.990 --> 00:08:23.483
You could just really make a detailed observation of the planet, the biosphere, make a simulation of it to maybe study it in science while your engineers get to work - demolishing the solar system.
00:08:23.559 --> 00:08:35.698
and you're just doing that purely for science, . Or you could go about it a different way and actually try to be more ethical and maybe directly upload the consciousness, if that's possible, to try and preserve the individual beings while taking over the corporeal world.
00:08:35.958 --> 00:08:38.619
I guess that just depends on what your civilization wants to do.
00:08:38.688 --> 00:08:40.389
I think both are more possible.
00:08:40.528 --> 00:08:40.849
Yeah.
00:08:40.908 --> 00:08:51.999
I mean, if, realistically, if you're at that level where you're able to build simulations like this, it would probably be more efficient to just destroy them and recreate everything that you've already observed about them to create the simulation.
00:08:52.298 --> 00:08:53.288
It's very possible.
00:08:53.339 --> 00:08:54.957
But maybe you're, merciful.
00:08:55.028 --> 00:08:56.107
Yeah, I would hope we would, yeah.
00:08:57.083 --> 00:08:58.364
and you keep them preserved.
00:08:58.384 --> 00:09:01.166
And we see the, the examples of these two different types.
00:09:01.453 --> 00:09:13.073
Like, Would we be living in, like, a physical body, but our reality of what we experience is more simulated similar to The Matrix, like how they are essentially harvesting them for energy?
00:09:13.203 --> 00:09:24.844
but just, like, that thought where it wouldn't be for energy, but just to be merciful upon those people, or are you completely, uploading, like, everything, your existence is all being run in a code on a computer?
00:09:25.004 --> 00:09:29.884
Yeah, I don't… I, uh, with this type of theory, like the zoo hypothesis, I, I don't see why you would keep everything alive.
00:09:29.884 --> 00:09:36.410
I think you would probably just upload it, 'cause in, in the case I gave you, wanted to, keep the physical resources.
00:09:36.730 --> 00:09:53.951
Though I guess if you were going down an extreme zoo hypothesis situation, one of the complaints we had with that theory in general is that it's really hard to block out the external galaxy, and it really only takes one rogue person to send a radio signal, If you fully control their entire existence, then you don't have to worry about a stray radio signal making it in.
00:09:54.100 --> 00:09:58.451
Now these people, if they wanted to reach out to their civilization, they'd have to directly hack the computer.
00:09:58.701 --> 00:10:02.140
I mean, it, it definitely would work as a good isolation method.
00:10:02.171 --> 00:10:03.860
Yeah, kinda hard to beat that, yeah.
00:10:03.860 --> 00:10:03.971
Yeah.
00:10:04.282 --> 00:10:10.282
And then imagine we're just, like, the entire existence is just on, like, a, an alien version of a floppy disk.
00:10:10.282 --> 00:10:10.572
Yeah.
00:10:10.761 --> 00:10:18.873
And you know, it is worth pointing out that this does kinda get rid of, I'm not gonna say the moral dilemma, because I think people could very fairly agree that this still is not ethical.
00:10:19.163 --> 00:10:27.013
But it does at least give a solution to the moral dilemma of you find a planet that's perfect for your form of life, but someone's already there.
00:10:27.013 --> 00:10:27.722
What do you do?
00:10:28.082 --> 00:10:31.003
This is kind of a have your cake and eat it too situation.
00:10:31.013 --> 00:10:36.273
You preserve that civilization and that race, while also giving your species a new planet.
00:10:36.383 --> 00:10:42.962
I'm not saying that that is ethically acceptable, but it's at least- possible to see how someone would decide to do that.
00:10:43.202 --> 00:10:43.932
it makes sense.
00:10:43.932 --> 00:10:48.552
Like, like, like, right, the, the thought of it makes sense within certain parameters.
00:10:48.852 --> 00:10:51.312
I guess it's better than just annihilating them just outright.
00:10:51.802 --> 00:10:53.732
Yeah, When it comes from that perspective, at least.
00:10:55.537 --> 00:11:02.336
it wouldn't be them living out the rest of their lives, but at least to the ones that are being simulated, everything was fine.
00:11:02.376 --> 00:11:03.096
Yeah, exactly.
00:11:03.116 --> 00:11:12.277
So- That does actually bring me to another way, though, that you can actually have the simulation hypothesis be solution to the Fermi paradox, and this one kind of flips the whole thing on its head.
00:11:12.409 --> 00:11:15.659
It argues that maybe the universe isn't simulated.
00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:17.590
The universe is real life.
00:11:17.590 --> 00:11:20.090
We exist in the actual base reality.
00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:36.429
However, there can be a pretty fair, and I think reasonable argument to be made that creating a simulation and uploading consciousness to that simulation would probably be easier than actually exploring the galaxy and getting to another star and developing an intergalactic civilization.
00:11:36.740 --> 00:11:50.950
So this theory argues that advanced alien civilizations actually basically create Matryoshka brains, which are giant supercomputers powered by their star, and they upload their entire civilization to that computer instead of going out and exploring the galaxy.
00:11:51.049 --> 00:12:15.460
this is one that we've covered a couple times in the, in some episodes, and it does have a lot of good points that, essentially it increases efficiency for the… essentially the amount of space that you can have for people to live the lives that they want, because you can use very little energy by, you know, cooling down the body, putting them in a Matryoshka brain, and then simulating just endless life, and exploration.
00:12:15.570 --> 00:12:26.269
And so if energy and entropy was the main concern of a civilization, doing a simulation in this way would be the most efficient way possible to combat that.
00:12:26.379 --> 00:12:27.139
Yeah, exactly.
00:12:27.139 --> 00:12:30.289
And not only is it the most efficient, it just might be the most practical.
00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:38.809
mean, in our universe, it takes so much time and energy to reach different stars that an individual is always gonna be limited by what they do.
00:12:39.070 --> 00:12:51.379
Unless you can truly just live for tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of years, it's not gonna be possible for you to go and explore space like we see in Star Trek and Star Wars, assuming FTL doesn't just get invented, which we always assume that it won't be.
00:12:51.537 --> 00:13:03.346
compare that though, however, to something like a simulation, you could theoretically just send probes to scout the entire galaxy, and then in your simulation, be able to explore all of those worlds at any rate you want.
00:13:03.529 --> 00:13:13.110
Yeah, I mean, as long as, the probe was out there and it had detailed information, you would be able to immediately experience all of that same information that its sensors are picking up and cameras.
00:13:13.669 --> 00:13:15.169
So you could live anywhere.
00:13:15.230 --> 00:13:23.836
The only problem that I have with that is, Wouldn't it be better if just everybody understood that it was a simulation and they could just live the lives that they chose to?
00:13:23.886 --> 00:13:26.836
Well, in this case, we're not arguing that we are in the simulation.
00:13:26.846 --> 00:13:26.876
Right.
00:13:26.886 --> 00:13:39.167
We just argue that alien civilizations turn inward and develop their own simulations and migrate into them instead of migrating out to the stars, and it proposes that the reason we don't see evidence- of alien civilization is because of that.
00:13:39.226 --> 00:13:40.586
Is because they're doing it already.
00:13:40.596 --> 00:13:44.576
Yeah, yeah, 'cause they're going into the simulation and just letting existence run its course.
00:13:44.576 --> 00:13:49.236
they're not interested in exploring the galaxy- Mm hence we never see them, and that's a solution to the Fermi paradox.
00:13:49.537 --> 00:13:50.126
Lucky.
00:13:50.246 --> 00:13:54.606
But to answer your question- … I do agree that, yeah, just let people know they're in the simulation.
00:13:54.886 --> 00:13:57.567
I don't think that it would be inherently worse for people.
00:13:57.807 --> 00:14:01.807
Like for me, for example, if we found out that we're in a simulation, I don't care.
00:14:02.177 --> 00:14:04.366
I don't think that changes my perspective of reality.
00:14:04.657 --> 00:14:14.136
If scientists came out tomorrow and said, " We have definitive proof that our reality is a simulation", that's not gonna change how I feel about myself, my existence and my life.
00:14:14.346 --> 00:14:17.126
I'm gonna be annoyed that I don't get to do whatever I want.
00:14:17.177 --> 00:14:24.986
That I'm confined by all these, like, rules of society and have to go work my nine to five, but I'm still gonna go do it because it doesn't really matter to me.
00:14:25.230 --> 00:14:26.451
What would be your first thought?
00:14:26.773 --> 00:14:27.092
Huh.
00:14:27.291 --> 00:14:27.471
Huh.
00:14:28.091 --> 00:14:28.900
And then I would go to work.
00:14:29.100 --> 00:14:31.921
My, my mind immediately goes to the laws of physics.
00:14:32.140 --> 00:14:36.181
I would wanna know what the laws of physics are for the real world- Yeah … of those towers.
00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:48.320
truth be told, I would be extremely curious whether we are experiencing the real universe, and it's just, like I said, the ancestor simulation, or if the laws of physics the next level up are fundamentally different.
00:14:48.740 --> 00:15:04.409
And I, I know that there's always the running joke that quantum mechanics, it would be the, the best way to go about running a, a simulation 'cause it kinda just obscures a lot of the finer detail of the universe, and maybe that's the way that if you could run a simulation, you could save on some computation.
00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:14.580
I know that in one of the new seasons of Futurama, they actually have an episode that explores that joke, where they add quantum mechanics to the simulation just to make it less intense to run computationally.
00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:16.073
and it's just, like, a running joke.
00:15:16.100 --> 00:15:16.451
Yeah.
00:15:16.520 --> 00:15:33.831
I mean, quantum mechanics definitely is something that I'm not super well-versed in, but I know that it has supporting theories for simulation, hypothesis just because it, it talks about, like… The super interesting one to me was, particles don't actually render until you look at them.
00:15:34.130 --> 00:15:34.480
Yeah.
00:15:34.510 --> 00:15:44.360
I've seen people point to quantum mechanics and just basically say, " If you were gonna run a simulation, that's how you would do it." I don't think it proves that we're in a simulation- No … one way or another at all.
00:15:44.392 --> 00:15:47.272
but I see the argument people are making, and it's fun to draw those parallels.
00:15:47.621 --> 00:15:48.302
It definitely is.
00:15:48.322 --> 00:15:55.261
And also, the big opposing thing to simulation theory is one that you brought up earlier of computation power can't really be infinite.
00:15:55.481 --> 00:15:59.942
Well, the issue is we don't know that because we don't know what the next level of reality could be.
00:16:00.245 --> 00:16:06.066
So it's very possible that they have more dimensions than us and entropy doesn't exist, and maybe they do have infinite computation.
00:16:06.186 --> 00:16:09.948
It's also worth pointing out that computation doesn't have to be infinite.
00:16:10.208 --> 00:16:14.359
They don't have to simulate the universe to the every single atom to be true.
00:16:14.678 --> 00:16:22.489
Things could just not exist where it doesn't affect the simulation, much how when you're playing a video game, anywhere your character's not looking isn't rendered.
00:16:22.808 --> 00:16:26.078
The same thing could be happening to our universe for humanity, and that would be totally fine.
00:16:26.394 --> 00:16:36.965
But that being said- I do think it's worth pointing out that I really think it's impossible to ever prove that you're in a simulation unless the creator of the simulation wants you to be able to know that.
00:16:37.355 --> 00:16:40.504
Because the thing is, they run the entire ship, right?
00:16:40.634 --> 00:16:40.904
Right.
00:16:41.023 --> 00:16:52.623
Even if some scientist was able to crack the code and figure out definitive proof that we're in a simulation, if the people running it don't want them to know that, they can just undo that mistake, roll back to an earlier save, fix the bug, and let it keep going forward.
00:16:53.013 --> 00:17:02.602
Hell, for all we know, people could've been figuring this thing out all the time, and there's some scientist in another level of the reality being like, " Oh my God, another one?" And just, "All right, roll back to the previous save.
00:17:02.602 --> 00:17:04.472
We gotta, we gotta reboot this again." Someone else figured it out.
00:17:04.678 --> 00:17:15.680
Yeah, I mean, really even going a step deeper, like if it's a more controlled simulation, the fact is that thought wouldn't even be able to become a complete one without the simulation allowing it.
00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:24.519
Yeah, you could put in some safeguards that just basically raises the alarm anytime someone actually figures out we're in a simulation, and you can just delete that thought from their mind or just undo it.
00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:37.829
It's … You have 100% full control of the simulation, so it's … You're not ever going to out-think the people who made it, not even just because they're probably way smarter than you, but just because they have full control of your reality.
00:17:37.859 --> 00:17:41.299
And you, you can't beat somebody who has full control of your reality.
00:17:41.349 --> 00:17:50.565
Which is, It's one of those interesting things to ponder, like breaking out of the, the matrix, out of the simulation and seeing the real world for what it is.
00:17:50.730 --> 00:17:56.819
But the reality of it is, if you are in a simulation, you are outmatched past your wildest imagination.
00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:57.609
Yeah, exactly.
00:17:57.609 --> 00:18:00.633
It'd be like your character in a video game trying to rebel against you.
00:18:00.869 --> 00:18:06.819
Even if they somehow could, break the rules of the game, I can turn off my computer and unplug it, so they're not gonna win in the long run.
00:18:07.089 --> 00:18:09.470
Then I can roll back to an earlier save or just start a new file.
00:18:09.740 --> 00:18:13.509
So trying to rebel against the creator, not really gonna work in your favor.
00:18:13.859 --> 00:18:19.309
I mean, it was… It's like Lara Croft, 2001 Tomb Raider, breaking out of the computer.
00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:23.950
yeah, so that's kind of the issue I have with people who try to go about proving we're in a simulation.
00:18:23.950 --> 00:18:28.529
I mean, I think it's something always worth looking into, and I don't think you should, like, try to prove it.
00:18:28.529 --> 00:18:35.269
But, as we explore the laws of physics and, explore more of our universe, then I think naturally- Answers to that question will come up.
00:18:35.659 --> 00:18:39.739
and it's always possible that the creators of a simulation don't care if you find out you're in a simulation.
00:18:40.038 --> 00:18:54.348
But if it's an ancestor simulation, I would argue that that breaks the whole point of the simulation, and you should be very wary if you ever do find a point where they stop caring if you know or not, 'cause that probably means you're reaching the end of the study they're trying to do.
00:18:54.648 --> 00:18:54.939
Yeah.
00:18:55.489 --> 00:19:13.459
Also, something to think about, which I, I don't think is likely, but I've, seen in, you know, like Rick and Morty is an example where Rick makes a universe, and then inside of that universe there's a scientist that makes another universe, and it's like, like you could be in a simulation that's being run in a simulation.
00:19:13.659 --> 00:19:28.028
Yeah, that is also one of the, the theories I've seen that argue numerically that you're more likely to be in a simulation than not, is that y- you might create one simulation and that one creates two, and then that one creates two, and you get this, like, fractal and this infinite growth.
00:19:28.298 --> 00:19:43.308
Though I mean, ultimately, however much computation you're using to run the initial simulation has to then be divided to run the ones below it, so every step down that chain has less access to computation unless the base level just keeps allowing more and more computation to come in.
00:19:43.709 --> 00:19:45.078
And I'm not a programmer.
00:19:45.078 --> 00:19:46.138
I've dabbled a little bit.
00:19:46.378 --> 00:19:50.118
To me, it just sounds like a, like a leaky RAM in, like, a program.
00:19:50.298 --> 00:19:56.095
Eventually, someone's gonna be like,"Wow, this program's taking up a lot more computation than we expected.
00:19:52.979 --> 00:19:56.095
Someone should end that task." Yeah.
00:19:56.194 --> 00:19:58.625
It's like the Google Chrome browser of simulations.
00:19:59.805 --> 00:20:05.394
You, you boot it up and you come back a few hours later and you're like,"Are you really using eight gigabytes of RAM right now just to run Google?" Yeah.
00:20:05.585 --> 00:20:10.894
You have one taskbar open and but then when you open up your task manager, there's 15 Chrome tabs.
00:20:10.904 --> 00:20:11.755
Yeah, exactly.
00:20:12.025 --> 00:20:19.815
So- … that, that would be my concern on that, and I do think there's gonna be a limit of computation, so I don't buy the argument you can just keep going down that chain.
00:20:20.015 --> 00:20:32.184
it definitely is an, an interesting theory to think about, and one that can't be proved wrong or right, of course, like many of the solutions to the Fermi paradox or many of these speculations as to why we exist.
00:20:32.625 --> 00:20:35.125
But it's definitely something that's fun to ponder.
00:20:35.144 --> 00:20:39.795
But well, the reality of it is it'll never be, solved to fruition.
00:20:39.855 --> 00:20:49.785
I personally, for my money, I think the idea that alien civilizations turn inward into a simulation is much more likely than we are a simulation and that's why we don't see aliens.
00:20:50.194 --> 00:20:51.605
And I mean,'cause that makes sense to me.
00:20:51.605 --> 00:20:53.005
I would like to be in a simulation.
00:20:53.355 --> 00:20:54.924
I can't remember what philosopher it was.
00:20:54.924 --> 00:20:55.684
I don't think it was Descartes.
00:20:55.954 --> 00:21:01.775
but one of them came up with this idea of a basically, I think he called it an experience machine.
00:21:02.075 --> 00:21:02.375
Mm-hmm.
00:21:02.384 --> 00:21:09.214
That if you uploaded yourself into it, you would have this wonderful, amazing life, And even while you're in the machine, you would forget that you were in it.
00:21:09.615 --> 00:21:19.694
and he made the argument that it doesn't matter how great that simulated life is, it would be unfulfilling compared to a life in the real world that, included a lot of suffering.
00:21:20.015 --> 00:21:22.365
And his whole argument was that reality is more important.
00:21:22.535 --> 00:21:24.105
I firmly disagree with that.
00:21:24.595 --> 00:21:27.744
Upload me to the matrix, upload me to the simulation.
00:21:27.785 --> 00:21:34.164
I just, I don't have an issue with that, and I think it's kind of arbitrary to argue what level of existence is there.
00:21:34.263 --> 00:21:47.459
Thinking about, like, if you are able to be uploaded into a simulation, then although I agree that experiences and hardship are important, but for building character in a world where you have to, conform to it.
00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:50.848
But if you're in a known simulation, then what's the point?
00:21:51.058 --> 00:21:54.209
You could live whatever you want, and you don't have to adhere to any standards.
00:21:54.209 --> 00:21:57.058
It's True, and there's no reason you can't still experience hardship, right?
00:21:57.259 --> 00:22:03.159
Like, just because it's a simulation doesn't mean you can't throw in some hardship for, for the character development or for the fun of the game.
00:22:04.358 --> 00:22:06.739
And I, I also never really bought that argument.
00:22:06.749 --> 00:22:08.818
It doesn't have to be eternal bliss.
00:22:08.848 --> 00:22:15.378
There can be whatever it needs to be to give you a fulfilling life, and that might include some downturns to make the upturns feel better.
00:22:15.689 --> 00:22:20.969
And it could also change your brain, the way it works, and just make the good always feel good.
00:22:21.269 --> 00:22:28.939
I mean, honestly, you could, set the parameters for an experience that you wanna have prior to going into it, and then you just go in, live out that experience.
00:22:28.939 --> 00:22:31.338
And then when it's over, you're like, "Oh, that was fun," and then you do another one.
00:22:31.388 --> 00:22:32.159
Yeah, exactly.
00:22:32.199 --> 00:22:35.578
And I guess it's, to me, it's the same argument of, like, a post-scarcity society.
00:22:35.868 --> 00:22:37.909
It doesn't just have to be all pleasure all the time.
00:22:38.169 --> 00:22:41.308
There can still be some character development and growing opportunities.
00:22:41.678 --> 00:22:49.788
And especially if you're combining this with not just yourself, but if you're uploading your entire civilization, then there's going to be some social aspects.
00:22:49.788 --> 00:22:53.388
Maybe you really fancied somebody, and that didn't work out.
00:22:53.388 --> 00:22:54.598
And there's your hardship right there.
00:22:54.808 --> 00:23:06.868
That's nothing compared to starving or some of the real hardships people face in the real world, but it still would be a down and still would give you those ups and downs that we think today make life necessary and fulfilling.
00:23:07.522 --> 00:23:08.063
Does it actually?
00:23:08.063 --> 00:23:08.403
I don't know.
00:23:08.792 --> 00:23:10.313
I mean, that is a good point too.
00:23:10.363 --> 00:23:13.353
hardship is perceived by the person perceiving it.
00:23:13.442 --> 00:23:18.643
It… If some little thing goes wrong, that could be hardship that shapes you because that's the worst thing that's ever happened to you.
00:23:18.653 --> 00:23:19.613
Yeah, exactly.
00:23:19.803 --> 00:23:22.323
And for me, like I said, upload me to the simulation.
00:23:22.363 --> 00:23:25.123
If I have to do without hardship, that's a sacrifice that I'm willing to make.
00:23:25.153 --> 00:23:26.792
I wanna live in the simulation too.
00:23:26.792 --> 00:23:38.772
And that's why I'm saying, for me, it makes the most sense that that could be the solution of the Fermi paradox because if you had the technology and if you had the ability, why wouldn't you make this thing, and why wouldn't you upload your civilization to it?
00:23:39.012 --> 00:23:43.853
Maybe some people do choose to remain outside the simulation, but why?
00:23:44.192 --> 00:23:49.803
And if they do, are they really gonna go and explore the galaxy when they could do that in the simulation much easier?
00:23:50.063 --> 00:23:53.522
I mean, it just, it seems like such a difficult thing to turn down.
00:23:53.603 --> 00:24:01.462
Literally have whatever life you want just because it's readily available, and we'd prefer that you do that to save on energy.
00:24:02.083 --> 00:24:04.353
You know, it, it just makes a lot of sense.
00:24:04.722 --> 00:24:05.643
Yeah, no, I agree.
00:24:05.848 --> 00:24:12.909
Well, that was a, I think, decently interesting exploration into simulations and how they could affect the Fermi paradox.
00:24:13.209 --> 00:24:17.689
I mean, honestly, there was so much to, to think about, I j- I just kinda got jumbled a little bit.
00:24:17.689 --> 00:24:17.989
yeah.
00:24:19.419 --> 00:24:23.679
Maybe we'll have to explore it again in the future, but for the viewers listening, I hope you enjoyed it.
00:24:23.679 --> 00:24:29.288
I hope that all made sense, and I hope you consider subscribing on whatever your podcast platform of choice is.
00:24:29.638 --> 00:24:34.368
If you enjoy the show and you really wanna support us, you can always subscribe to our Patreon and support us there.
00:24:34.638 --> 00:24:42.999
And please join us next week where we are gonna be exploring what kind of societal impact would it actually have if we discovered that we're not alone in the universe.
00:24:43.449 --> 00:24:44.699
Kind of the opposite of this episode, huh?
00:24:44.798 --> 00:24:45.138
Yeah.
00:24:46.239 --> 00:24:48.278
If that sounds interesting, then join us next week.
00:24:48.648 --> 00:24:49.578
Thank you guys so much.
00:24:49.878 --> 00:24:50.259
Take care.
00:24:50.358 --> 00:24:50.729
Bye-bye.