Why More Endurance Training Isn’t Always Better | John Wessling

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Mr.
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John Wesling, trainer to the stars.
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I heard you say on a podcast that you like the puzzle piece aspect of training.
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How often is the missing piece something different from a from like what a person thinks that it needs to be?
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Yeah, it really depends on the athlete.
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I think that um I think that every athlete uh inherently is stubborn in I don't think it's a bad thing, you know.
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I think it can go both ways.
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So a lot of times the puzzle piece is uh is maybe right in front of your face and you don't see it.
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And then sometimes the puzzle piece is, you know, a deep dive and really figuring out um what it is.
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But yeah, the the puzzle piece aspect of training, I mean, if I had the answer for for every athlete, you know, um I I would have uh you know 60 mansions across the world.
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But I think that if if we could all nail it, it would be really a really easy job.
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And I think that's why I like it is is kind of the struggle in trying to figure it out.
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Yeah, problem solving is very interesting, right?
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Because of the fact that, like, yes, we're all humans, but at the same time, we're also our own little snowflake.
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And within that, there's this like, you know, that bell curve.
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You can kind of treat a lot of people about 80% the same.
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But then when you're really trying to fine-tune an athlete, that's where you start, everybody starts to kind of hit their out parts of that bell curve.
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So has there been any gotchas though, as you've been like working with different athletes across your career as a professional coach and trainer, that you're like, holy shit, that was a really hard weakness to figure out and find to be able to tweak and work on?
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Yeah, definitely.
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And especially like you said, as you get more gifted athletes, you know, whether it's strength, whether it's uh high VO2 or just an ability to recover.
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Um, you know, even guys that like in motocross that are super efficient at riding, like it doesn't take the same toll on them that it does, you know, maybe someone who rides a bit more aggressively.
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Um, so it is, it's kind of always just tweaking the little things.
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But um, yeah, it's it's quite it's quite different, you know, and it it it really is cool to um try to figure it out, you know.
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That's the fun part.
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Well, I'm sure being a coach and an athlete, well, you were an athlete well before you were a coach, right?
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Like, what was maybe one of those things that took you a while to figure out about yourself as you were trying to put all these puzzle pieces together?
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Yeah, I always um I messed up a lot, not not horribly, but like I over-trained pretty bad uh one year um to the point where like I was just sick all the time.
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I couldn't figure it out.
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You know, I kept making up excuses in my head, like, oh, I took um, you know, I took allergy medicine.
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That's why my heart rate's high.
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Or I took, you know, I would just kind of like make stuff up in my head hoping it would go away.
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And yeah, it's like for me, I, you know, overtraining and doing it the wrong way a few times, like you learn.
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And I I truly believe, and not like I was great by any means, but I believe that great, all great athletes, no matter what sport, no matter what you're doing, like you kind of have to overtrain to find what what your, you know, what your zone is that you can function as as an athlete.
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And I think it's really hard to find that without overtraining or without overdoing it.
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And you always hear of the horror stories of like, you know, somebody overtraining and it's this horrible thing, and it does suck and it does, you know, maybe not make the season super fun, but I think once you learn, you know, where your upper end is or where your limit is, um, it kind of makes the rest of your career or the rest of your uh athletic endeavors a little a little bit better.
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And if you're motivated, it's so easy to overtrain.
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I mean, I train more guys that are probably on the cusp of overtraining than not, you know, and and you're always just trying to ride that line of like, I'm not overtraining, but I kind of am, um, in figuring that out.
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And like I said, especially in endurance sports where volume is king, um, it's it's super easy to find, you know, athletes overtrained.
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And it and if you can catch it early enough, you can kind of back off and be okay.
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But if you kind of just keep, you know, banging your head against a wall for six months, it it usually doesn't end well.
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On that endurance piece that you're talking about, a lot of the athletes, and and it I understand I've trained for quite a few different ultras and things like that.
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And it's like, holy shit, like these plans hammer you into the ground.
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Um, and I typically uh do a little bit less volume than they ask of me and do a little bit more strength work to just be what I think is a little bit more resilient.
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Now, I'm never gonna go win these things anyway, but what is it that you've kind of found that is the overtraining thing?
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Like on average, like what is it that someone's like, I mean, is it just like I'm gonna do more volume?
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Or is it like not they just don't eat enough nutrition?
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Like, what is it that you're normally finding in that for overtraining?
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Yeah, it's kind of a little bit of everything that you just said.
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It could be not eating enough calories uh for the workout, which honestly, in a lot of like you know, from training ultras, it's so hard to eat enough calories some days.
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Like you get done with like a five-hour day, and you know, the last thing I want to do is eat 3,000 calories.
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Like it it turns into a job.
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And obviously, it's it's you're lucky to be in that position, you know, to be able to work out that hard, to have to eat that much.
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But for me, that's my least favorite part of training.
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Honestly, I I really do not like having to eat as much as I do.
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And it makes it, it makes it like you're just forcing like rice down and pasta and just stuff, you know, that isn't super flavorful, but it's getting the job done and it, it's, it's, you know, it's a good training food.
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Um, but yeah, on the overtraining side, it's like it could be, it could be too much intensity, it could be too much volume, it could be not enough recovery, it could be too many races, you know, in a short amount of time or too much travel with the races.
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You know, there's a million factors in it.
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Um, endurance sports, it's usually just too much of everything.
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I would say that's like what most people do, is like you can, and I always try to like explain this as best I can, but you can do anything, you know, and that's where people kind of get confused is like you and I could go out and we could ride a hundred mile bike rides every day for a month, but it doesn't mean that at the end of the month we're gonna be better off for it and can perform better.
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Like you can do it.
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Um, but it's not always you you have to be able to absorb the training.
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And that's where people kind of get confused is like just because you can do it doesn't mean that's good, you know?
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And I think like ultra running, like what you've you've done and you've seen, like there's a lot of that in there, just because the events are so gnarly that you kind of do have to find that that limit.
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And then same with a lot of the ultra events I've done.
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Um, it's not very hard, you know, especially if you have a life and a job and other life stresses outside of training.
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Um, it's super easy to to you know cook yourself a bit.
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Holy crap, you just brought up such a great point.
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Life.
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Like anyone that just wants to have a level of fitness, they want to move three times a week, right?
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Like the other side of that is they got to live a life.
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So then people like myself, myself and yourself.
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Now, granted, you are much more of a capable athlete than I will have ever been, but still, like when you add in all the complexities that the body from a physiological standpoint has to go through for the training, the adaptation, the recovery, then doing it again.
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Like, how is it that you try to talk to your athletes andor other people that you've talked to that are just trying to live their life about that?
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Like, how to remember that there is a balance and you should pro, I mean, my opinion is that you should sway more towards do a little bit less so that life is easier versus the other way around.
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But what are your thoughts?
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Yeah, like when you're dealing with pro athletes, obviously training becomes a huge priority, but they still have a life too, you know, and they still a lot of pro athletes have kids and wives and you know, husbands and whatever, you know, they're all doing their own thing too.
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So it's it's a little bit easier with the pro guys, obviously, because they will prioritize it.
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But yeah, with with the average Joe, it's like, I mean, for me personally, when I'm bike training specifically, like I try to just stay in that like 12 to 15 hour a week range.
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Is it that's kind of my sweet spot where like I can still get in good training, but I'm not so tired that I can't do anything else.
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Because it's more like I can train 25 hours a week, but I'll be so tired that I'm kind of worthless in everything else at this point in my life, at least.
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So for me, it's more just finding that sweet spot of like, okay, I I can still train, I still enjoy it.
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You know, that's the biggest thing is like sometimes I just don't enjoy training um, you know, tons and tons of volume all the time.
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So I try to keep that with my athletes too, just kind of living that, you know, in my own way.
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And so, so for some of them, it might just be, you know, six to ten hours is is their sweet spot, you know, with their family and their life.
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So yeah, figuring out how all that works is really hard.
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And and then nourishing yourself and sleeping enough in, you know, all the little things.
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Like your kids get sick and you're up all night, and just having to manage all of that for the average person, um, it really does start to become like everybody likes to act like training is, you know, it's just like, oh, you just go out and run and it's not a big deal.
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But it is a real science.
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And it's not just the training, it's kind of everything else around it that makes the training possible or makes the training, you know, make everything else worse.
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Um so finding that sweet spot, no matter what level you're at, but especially as just a casual athlete or somebody just trying to run a marathon or a 5K or whatever it is, um, it is crucial to having a good, enjoyable experience.
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Thank you, and back to the episode.
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Fueling is insanely hard to get a lot of people to comprehend.
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You even said it too.
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If I were to go out for a five-hour day, I gotta come back.
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And after I feel like I can peel myself off the ground, you got to start putting stuff back in, right?
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Because of the fact you're gonna burn so much calories and you just need to replenish the energy that you've been all the stores that you depleted at that point, right?
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But how should the average person potentially think about fueling?
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Like break it down, right?
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Like we know I, you know, sometimes you hear people talk about counting macros and you got macronutrients and micronutrients.
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And I just find that a lot of people start to get really confused within that.
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So maybe I was wondering, do you have like a simplistic way to kind of go, okay, listen, you're doing more.
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Your body needs this.
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Here's how you could kind of think about adding in a little bit extra to help that body recover so that you can be more either the rest of the day or the next couple days.
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Yeah, and it just all comes back to like what you're doing.
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You know, if you're just going out for a 30-minute jog, you don't need to fuel that 30-minute jog during the workout.
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Um, but before the workout, if you haven't ate in a while, um, like having some sort of high glycemic carbohydrate or sugary drink or something to just get some glycogen in your system is is huge.
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And I think a lot of people, you know, and we preach it all the time, like I'm doing absurd amounts of carbohydrates, but I'm also riding, well, for one, I'm huge for a cyclist.
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Like I'm 180, 185 pounds.
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So, like, compared to the guys I'm racing, I'm burning a lot more calories per minute, per hour, going the exact same pace.
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You know, we could just be going up a hill together and I'm gonna be burning way more.
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So I have to put in more than most people.
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So if I'm doing 150 grams an hour, let's say for a five-hour race, that doesn't mean if you're going out for a 30-minute easy jog, you need to do 150 grams an hour.
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Like it's all based on what you are doing in the goal of that.
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Um, but generally speaking, yes, you should fuel everything appropriately to what you're doing.
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Like you don't want to, there's certain things that you can get away with.
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And again, it's like it's not to say you can't do it.
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Like, of course, you can go do, you know, a 90-minute workout fasted, but it's probably not in your best interest to recover better, to get through the workout better.
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Like there's studies that show your rate of perceived exertion is much higher on fasted workouts.
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Um, so it might not feel like it's any harder necessarily, but you're just gonna go slower.
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So it's like, you know, if if you really want to check all the boxes, like I think even just waking up, you know, and I see it all the time, and and people think I'm crazy, but just waking up and like having a handful of gummy bears before you go out the door, like if you can't eat a huge breakfast, just to get some glycogen in your system.
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Um, and again, you know, you're not gonna do that when you're sitting on the couch at home.
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Like that's not a proper way to fuel, but for that workout.
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Because if you're sitting on the couch, it's gonna be at least three handfuls.
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Yeah, seriously, or more.
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I got to keep that away uh from my cabinets just for that reason.
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Um, but yeah, it's just, you know, you just fuel what you're doing.
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And and if you really can break it like for easy workouts, you know, most people like that 50 to 60 grams of carbs an hour.
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I would say once it's over an hour, that's kind of when you really want to start dialing that in.
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Like I think if it's, you know, say it's 50 degrees out and you're just doing like a 40 minute run at a casual pace, I don't think you need to bring like gels and bottles and all this stuff with you.
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You know, you can kind of do that before the workout and get through the workout fine.
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Because you do have, I mean, hypothetically, everybody has about like 60 minutes of uh glycogen under them.
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And so even if you're under trained, you can just kind of like get it in before the workout and you know, do it that way.
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So then, you know, if you're doing a 45-minute workout and not knocking 45-minute workouts, it's just like you don't need to go crazy with with water belts and fueling and all this stuff.
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Yeah, I was I I spoke a little bit about Hunter Lawrence to go more to the dirt bike side where you and I do know each other from that aspect of things, but uh it's interesting to watch now that they're being a little bit more attentive to the racers on the line when they're at the gate.
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And you hit that 15-minute mark every single time.
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If you look around, you can see Hunter Lawrence.
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It's he's got, you know, he has an alarm set because it'll say 15 minutes to the gate drop, and he's back there squeezing in his hammer gel.
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You know, and so for him though, he's getting it in the system.
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So it's starting the digestion period.
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And to your point, 30 minutes probably before he even went to the line, that's when he was really finishing up whatever his process was and the way that he was going to be preparing the body.
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But that's like his like topping off the glycogen stores, and to your point, you know, right before that line goes.
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Because there's about 35 minutes, right?
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But it's 15 minutes before.
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So it's just anything he might need right at the end of that moto, that's what he's preparing for.
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And it's just interesting as I try to like show that to people how dumb I am for talking about it, because there's two sides of like, you know, to your point, that's so stupid, nobody gives a shit.
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To like, you know, then people get all nerdy and they kind of start trying to break it down.
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And I was like, wow, we're we're again, we're two ends of a very interesting spectrum.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well, and going back to what you said on the gel thing, like it even if you take it before, like, say before a moto, like even hypothetically, it will hit your system.
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Let's say it doesn't even hit your system until you get off the track.
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It's still a massive benefit because it's not like the second you turn your watch off on a workout, you know, no matter what you're doing, it's not like your body just all of a sudden is like, all right, we're done working out.
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Like it's still trying to process everything and it's still, you know, burning calories and your heart rate's still elevated.
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So it's always a good thing to be fueled than it is to be not fueled.
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You know, there's very few downsides to to being fueled for a workout.
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You know, there's uh the recovery alone is is the data on it is is quite astounding.
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Yeah.
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Before we switch over to talking about some of your Leadville adventures, you said you did speak up about VO2.
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I think it'd be really interesting.
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Like, kind of could you give us that like 30-second elevator pitch about what VO2 is, why people should care, if they should care, and then like kind of like why that number would mean anything to people.
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Yeah, VO2 is essentially your body's capacity to be able to bring in oxygen, deliver it to the muscles.
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And the higher your VO2 maxes, the more effective your body is at doing that.
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So, you know, if you have a really high VO2, you can generally like say you have a 10-minute uphill run.
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It's always the easiest way for me to explain stuff like this.
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Like the person with the highest VO2, generally, if you're just like not trained at all, any, you know, there's a hundred people in the race, nobody's really trained.
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The person with the highest VO2 will generally finish at the front of that.
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Um and and that's just because their body can just take in so much more oxygen and deliver it to the muscles.
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So when when you're dealing with athletes, like the VO2 does matter.
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And I think people they kind of get confused, like that's everything, and it does help a lot.
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And it helps even with recovery, it helps you like your body's just better at at being efficient.
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You know, that's really all it comes down to here.
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And you can train that a little bit, right?
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Like that's one of those things that is like uh how how would somebody consider thinking about trying to train that?
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Yeah, I think well, and going back to what I was saying, like the number is important and it does help, but really the meat and potatoes from below that number is really where you can make a ton of gain.
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So you can have an athlete that has a threshold, let's just hypothetically talk, has a threshold of like their VO that threshold VO2 is at 60, let's say.
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And you can have another athlete with their threshold VO2 at 60.
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But the max VO2 of one of those athletes could be 90, and the max could be 65.
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So like you can kind of alter how your body works um and how high your threshold percentage is to your VO2 max.
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And that's kind of my job is try to get the most out of the athlete and get them to their to their highest possible genetic potential, essentially.
00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:09.200
Um and that's that's the hardest part of the puzzle piece because you can have the highest VO2, but if you're super, if you're trained really poorly, it doesn't do you a whole lot of good, or at least you're never never gonna hit your potential.
00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:18.880
Um, and there's plenty of guys that have relatively low VO2s that crush it in in you know all sports and especially endurance sports.
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:22.640
And it's not because um, you know, they're tougher or anything like that.
00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:27.839
It's because they're properly trained and they know, you know, their limits and they understand how to train their body.
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:34.720
Well, I know that you had to worry about VO2 mainly because you had to process oxygen the many times that you've done the Leadville mountain bike race.
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:41.279
And then after this last Leadville, though, you said that it had been a few years since you put together a race that you were proud of.
00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:45.119
So what was it that kind of came together this year for you at Leadville that made you proud?
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:51.359
Yeah, I I had a couple years where I was I was on the road a lot, so I wasn't able to train a ton.
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:56.160
And then um last year, 2025, I was just bad.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:19:00.000
It was just a really bad race, uh, no excuses at all.
00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:03.119
Um, and so this year I came in really prepared.
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:13.759
I tried really hard in training to just do the things that I know I needed to do that I kind of I kind of acted like weren't a big deal in years prior, but I knew they were.
00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:17.039
And so I just tried to really focus on that stuff.
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:25.279
And yeah, it was a good year in the sense of like I didn't, I didn't overthink it and I didn't pace myself necessarily.
00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:31.839
It was a little, it was an altered course this year, so it was kind of hard to um compare it to any other year.
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:39.119
But with all these young kids coming in as fit as they are, and I mean the races start harder than they've ever started.
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:41.599
It's like max effort from the gun.
00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:45.440
So for me, it was more like I hung on, I blew up a little bit at the end.
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:50.720
You know, I'm proud of my time and position, but it's not like I'm I'm not going for the win at this race.
00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:52.960
You know, I'm nowhere near the win.
00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:57.920
Um, so for me, just I feel like that is my genetic potential, what I did.
00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:00.960
You know, I'm I'm a heavier guy, a lot of climbing.
00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:05.599
You know, the most Leadvilles are, you know, close to 12,000 feet of vertical climbing.
00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:12.720
And the race doesn't sue me, and no excuses with that stuff, but it's like just the reality is I know I'm not gonna go for the win.
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:15.599
So I'm basically just racing myself the whole time.
00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:21.599
I I've always wondered why they consider it a mountain bike race because nowadays it looks like a gravel race, right?
00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:27.359
Like I know that like they've had the go back and forth between drop bars or guys with the drop stims and everything like that.
00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:36.960
You know, obviously back in the day before mountain bikes had evolved the way that they have, but is how do you feel about the way that I guess the mountain bikes for Lead Bill have evolved?
00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:41.119
And it's just like, is it I have not been able to obviously ride the entire course.
00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:46.720
Like, is the course a true mountain bike race, or is it really just more of an off-road, kind of like more of a gravel course?
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:48.319
Yeah, that's a million-dollar question.
00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:52.160
My my opinion on it is like the evolution of the bikes.
00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:56.480
I really enjoyed the the drop bar bikes, and they had those for quite a few years.
00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:58.319
Um, they didn't allow them this year.
00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:06.720
So this year you had to run flat bars, um, which I think is awesome to kind of keep it, you know, a little bit more mountain bikey.
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:10.160
Um, I think the drop bars, like I think they weren't advantage at parts.
00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:12.000
I think they weren't advantage at parts.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:18.160
I think if you're going for the win, you're looking for every little marginal gain and it might be worth running them.
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:29.759
Um, but I think for the average Joe, just trying to finish the race, which is a huge feat in itself, I think just running like whatever you're comfortable on is going to be your best option for that race.
00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:33.440
Um, but going back to your question, is it a mountain bike race or a gravel race?
00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:39.039
On paper, and when you're just riding it, it feels like a gravel race.
00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:48.000
But like if you look at this year, the top, I want to say the top four out of five, or maybe the top five completely, they're they're purebred mountain bikers.
00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:56.559
Like if you look at like Braden Lang, Matt Wilson, Keegan Swenson, um like they're they're all mountain bike guys.
00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:59.680
You know, they all came from either World Cup background or just cross.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:01.839
Cross-country mountain bike background.
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:08.640
Um and so the mountain bikers rule Leadville, and that's because it is a mountain bike race.
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:21.599
Like, yes, there are parts you're just riding a mountain bike on the road, but like going down Columbine, you know, it's about a 20-minute downhill, call it, after climbing for, you know, close to an hour up to 12,000 feet.
00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:35.359
And you might be able to go as fast, say, like you might be able to go as fast as the 10th place guy or the 11th place guy, but they might be using half the energy as you, which at that altitude, that's where like they're able to save matches.
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:42.160
Is like, yeah, you're going the same speed downhill, but you might be on the edge and your heart rate might be just as high as going up the climb, you know?
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:44.559
Um, so it is a mount bike race.
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:51.119
Like Brayden Lang, I think he ended up gapping everybody by, I want to say over 60 seconds this year on the descent.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:53.359
And it was a little more technical because it rained a bunch.
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:56.240
So there's bigger rocks kind of floating in the trail.
00:22:56.319 --> 00:23:09.440
And um, I wouldn't say it was like super technical, but I mean, for him to put a minute on everybody in the field shows you that having the mount bike skill is, you know, it pays off because anybody would love to be a minute faster up that climb.
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:12.000
But to get it on the downhill is really hard to do.
00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:20.240
Now, do they have more traditional like single track on the Leadville mountain bike course, or is it typically more open kind of double track kind of stuff?
00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:21.599
It's all double track.
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:23.359
There's a little single track section.
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:27.839
Um, I don't know, it's maybe like three, four minutes on the way out, but you don't hit it on the way back.
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:30.480
So it's it's literally just this tiny chunk of single track.
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:42.240
But just how fire roads work and how they function, um, especially with like a snowy place like that where you know it everything melts in the spring, like it there's one good line generally.
00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:50.640
So it isn't single track, but like there's a preferred line on the fire road that you want to be on to avoid rocks or be smooth or whatever it is.
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:56.400
So it isn't a single track race, but there is usually one good line.
00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:01.200
Now, going back to the nutrition part that we were talking about a little bit earlier, how does someone like yourself prep?
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:10.319
Right, I believe it was about six hours that you were out on the bike this year, but then some of the previous ones, I think we were more in the seven hours, obviously different courses and stuff like that.
00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:13.519
But still, like, how is it that you're planning your nutrition?
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:20.400
Because there's so much that goes into this, not just the couple days before, but there's the day of, there's gonna be all the stops that you're gonna have throughout the day.
00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:22.640
And then to your point, recovery as always.
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:30.880
Yeah, no, the whole thing kind of starts like for me, getting ready for Leadville, it kind of starts in like May, you know.
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:35.519
So if you go back that far, it's like dialing your training, dialing in anything you want to try.
00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:41.519
Like I always like to test like bike setup, tires, and kind of knock all that stuff out of the way early in the year.
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.680
So then that I'm not so concerned about that as the race gets closer.
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:54.880
Um, but I really um on the nutrition side, I mean, I do everything full nut job.
00:24:54.960 --> 00:25:02.960
Like I weigh a lot of my food to make sure, and it's not to make sure I'm not eating too much, it's to make sure I'm eating enough.
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:12.720
You know, that's literally why I wait, because it's like you can have like a couple scoops of rice and put it on your plate, and you're like, oh, that's probably 40 grams of carbs, and really it's like 18, you know.
00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:16.400
So it's like I like to weigh everything just to make sure I'm getting enough.
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:20.799
Um, but going back, like I usually carb load pretty heavy two days leading up.
00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:25.599
And for me, I usually like to do like eight to 10 grams per kilogram I weigh.
00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:30.240
So it ends up being like, you know, the ceiling is like eight, nine hundred.
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:36.079
I've done up to a thousand grams of carbs the day before the race, which is an absolute job.
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:48.240
Um, but it's all like it's it's no fiber, as little vegetables and fruit as possible, um, is you know, minimal fat, just so my stomach doesn't get upset.
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:49.759
So it's just like purebred carbs.
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:51.599
It's like pancakes, rice.
00:25:51.839 --> 00:26:01.359
Um, I'm big on like licorice and stuff if I need an extra like 150 grams of carbs at night, just just because I I can't stomach any more pasta or rice.
00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:06.559
You know, it's it's not that licorice is good for you by any means, but I just need that little top off.
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.160
So yeah, the two days leading up, tons of carbohydrates.
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:12.000
And then during the race, kind of the same thing.
00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:19.519
I like to hit about 200 grams of carbs for breakfast on race day, which for that race specifically, you're eating at like 3 a.m.
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:24.319
Um, so that becomes like a bit of a chore in itself right there.
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:28.400
And honestly, when I get on the bike, I'm so sick of eating, I'm just I'm full.
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:33.680
Like I don't wanna, I don't want to take another gel or drink another bottle or anything.
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:45.599
Um, so the first part of the race is always hard to get a bunch of stuff down because it's like 40 degrees out and you're hammering and you're just like you're not thirsty, you're not really hungry, but you know you need it for the end of the race.
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:51.599
It's funny you bring that up because that the last ultra I did was like my first 50 miler, and I didn't wake up early enough.
00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:54.640
I think I set my alarm for 4:30 and I should have set it for four o'clock.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:27:01.359
And by the time we got out on the trail, oh my God, I had just the worst stomach cramps because everything was still kind of jostling around.
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:04.640
And we got to like the first thing, which was like five, six miles in.
00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:06.000
So it was about an hour in.
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:08.160
I just was like, I had to go take a trail dumpy.
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:11.039
I was like, oh, I gotta that gotta relieve some pressure, man.
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:12.000
This is so bad.
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:16.960
Uh and that luckily enough, that relieved uh the pressure, if you will.
00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:19.039
And the rest of the day went fine after that.
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:23.119
I was still tired as shit, and it took 15 hours to do the thing, but we did it, right?
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:27.119
Um, so yeah, it's like crazy that you have to back it up the way you do.
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:30.000
That you're like, if my race is gonna start at 6 a.m.
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:38.480
and I know that I need at least 60 minutes of like minimum of all of this, sometimes it's even 90 minutes of like no more solid foods.
00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:40.640
Like, okay, well, then when do you start eating?
00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:41.839
When do you start cooking?
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:42.720
When do you wake up?
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:45.119
Like, and it's really you're like, holy shit, 3 a.m.
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:46.319
Like, what am I doing?
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:49.279
Yeah, and it is, it's like a full science.
00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:55.839
You know, if you really want to get the most out of yourself, it's like I like to be done eating two and a half hours before the gun goes off.
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:56.880
Wow, okay, yeah.
00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:14.160
And I and I have like a full process, you know, on how I, you know, how I do everything and how I um even like my warm-up bottle, it's super concentrated with sodium to try to help me from not peeing, because especially in that race, it's so cold that you just instantly feel like you have to pee.
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:19.680
And especially if you've had all these carbohydrates, um, water latches onto carbohydrates in your body.
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:24.640
So you're like heavy, you know, you're always like a couple pounds heavier because you have all this water weight.
00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:36.720
And yeah, you kind of feel just honest, it sounds crazy, but you just kind of feel shitty going to the line sometimes um just because of all the food and everything you had to do, and and then the nerves on top of it.
00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:42.000
And you think that's the one race where I really uh get nervous and I love it.
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:46.640
Like I love those nerves because all the prep and everything that went into it.
00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:56.000
Um, you really just yeah, it's like it's game time and it's that one day, but you definitely um you feel everything before the before the start.
00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:58.079
And then once the star goes, it's like everything's fine.
00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:04.480
With uh where does someone start like with these kind of ultra mountain bike races, right?
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:10.000
Like where what are some either longer ones maybe that are more technical that someone could look into?
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:20.000
But even if somebody wanted to start looking into like longer type mountain bike races that start to bleed into that ultra versus just like maybe a cross country race, like what are they kind of looking for?
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:21.599
There, there's a ton, obviously.
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:23.440
Now everybody loves racing longer.
00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:27.920
Like, you know, if if a hundred mile race is good, everybody wants a 200-mile race.
00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:30.559
So there's long races everywhere now.
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:35.119
Like when I started in the endurance world, there was not that many long races.
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:40.799
And long, I'm talking like over three hours in the mountain world.
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:43.279
There were, they existed, but it wasn't like it is now.
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:51.599
I mean, now you can every month you could go do a five plus hour race, you know, in a great course on, you know, beautiful terrain, whatever.
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:52.799
And it's it's just there.
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:54.160
So they're all over.
00:29:54.319 --> 00:30:00.559
Um some of my favorite ones just I I did this one actually near Jackson Hole this summer that I thought was amazing.
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:01.599
Pierce Hole.
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:02.720
It's 100K.
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:05.039
It's like 60 some miles.
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:10.720
And um, that was a really cool course, all single track, like a little bit of double track, but mostly single track.
00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:13.599
And then in my backyard, the Park City point-to-point.
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:22.240
Um, super like I think it's the I I'm biased, but I think it's the best one-day mountain bike race in the US.
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:32.720
Um, and then there's also like in the Midwest, there's a ton of really good like Lutzen 99, or if you want like a less technical race, um, obviously all the gravel events that exist now.
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:39.920
Like you can really go do all of these, you know, long different style of races and have a good, good experience.
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:42.000
And there's tons of great race promoters now.
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:48.079
So yeah, you can kind of do whatever, but like I think the hardest thing for these races is just getting ready for them.
00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:52.240
Like the race itself, for me at least, is not that hard.
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:54.960
Like, it's not to say it's not hard, it's obviously very hard.
00:30:55.200 --> 00:31:02.240
But the training and you know, a lot of times solo training and you know, all of that stuff is what makes the race so easy.
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:05.599
Do you think more is better in this?
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:22.160
And I ask that because what I see typically happen is you get done with an ultra and write away an ultra uh you know, trail run like I've done, and you go to any of the Facebook groups or you go to any of the threads or anything like that, and everybody's like already signed up for the next link.
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:26.240
You know, if they did a 50, they're at a 60, if they did a 60, they're at a hundred.
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:32.000
And I'll and I wonder like, is more better or is better better, right?
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:36.160
Could they come back to that event and try to do the same distance faster?
00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:37.839
Could they try to walk less?
00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:44.400
Could they try to have less uh trail dumpies at the beginning because they figured out their their uh morning routine a little bit better, right?
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:52.799
And I I wonder about that because we saw so much blow-up after the Moab 240 got canceled, and so many people were like, you should have just let them finish.
00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:56.079
And it's like, guys, like people's lives would have been on the live.
00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:57.759
It's not about your pride at this point.
00:31:58.160 --> 00:32:02.079
And so I wonder, like, not that not should there be a cap.
00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:06.240
That's ridiculous, but like, is more always better?
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:10.400
Um yeah, that's a good one.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:15.920
I my personal, and this is just me, this is not, I didn't even start doing anything long.
00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:22.640
Like, I was just a purebred cross-country skier, a purebred cross-country mountain bike rider racer until I was 30.
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:26.799
So, like, even doing a race over two hours was kind of out of my wheelhouse.
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:31.279
Um, and it's not to say like five hour races or seven-hour races are bad.
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:34.240
Um, I just don't think it's always necessary.
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:37.039
Like, for me, I like to race the entire event.
00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:40.079
Like, I don't want to be in a place where I'm surviving a race.
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:41.839
That's to me, that's not fun.
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:43.519
I've never enjoyed surviving.
00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:45.039
Like, I just want to race.
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:49.200
So I think a lot of people like the survival aspect they like.
00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:51.359
And I think if that's what you like, then do that.
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:55.119
But I think there's something awesome about just racing.
00:32:55.279 --> 00:33:06.640
Um, and some people, you know, like for me when I started Leadville or even the idea of doing Leadville, I didn't even know it was possible for me personally to race for that long.
00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:09.759
Just because I'd never done it and I'd never experienced it.
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:13.599
And so you can get to a place where you train yourself to race that long.
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:31.599
But like some of these 24 hour, 30 plus hour events, um, it just takes a special person to want to do that, you know, to want to um just survive, you know, and there are people that can run the whole thing, but we're talking like a handful, you know, or just a couple.
00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:35.039
It's not like the majority of people are like in these ultras.
00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:38.480
They're the majority of people are not running the whole thing, you know.
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:40.319
And so it's a survival.
00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:42.400
That's like that's why I kind of bring it up.
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:47.039
Is it's like everybody was like, Well, you're gonna go register for the hundred miler next year?
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:52.000
Well, at the last one I did was Apossum's Revenge, and so it was like a 52, 54 miles.
00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:54.240
And in the back of my head, I was like, absolutely not.
00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:55.920
I walked way too much of that.
00:33:56.079 --> 00:33:58.559
Like the way I started that event was shit.
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:01.920
Literally, I'm on the side of the trail taking a dump.
00:34:02.079 --> 00:34:04.559
And I was like, I walked way too much.
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:10.400
Like, and and I spent time talking to people, you know, like and that's not a bad thing.
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:14.480
I don't want anybody to say that if you do those things and enjoy that part of it, that you shouldn't.
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:21.199
For me, I was like, I could have easily finished that in 12 hours if I'd have just had it, if I'd have had my head on street.
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:23.440
I know exactly where I lost all that time.
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:26.159
So for me, no, I'm not signing up for the longer event.
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:31.599
I'm gonna go shore up all the stupid mistakes I made in the 50 miler and come back better.
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:43.760
And it, but again, I think that I think it's just because of the fact that I did spend so much time finding my limits and realizing it actually wasn't my limit, and then going, oh, okay, now there's this other place.
00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:44.559
There's this other place.
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:47.360
I said, and if I keep pushing myself, guess what?
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:50.639
I am gonna figure out a way to break through that mental toughness.
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:53.599
But at the same time, too, like, what do I really want out of this?
00:34:53.840 --> 00:35:05.039
And so it's like, I could keep beating myself up to just finish 100 miles, or maybe I could come back and be a better runner in general and be able to attack 50 miles stronger.
00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:06.719
And that's just where I'm at now.
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:08.320
And maybe that's part of the process.
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:09.119
I'm not sure.
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:18.880
I just kind of like the more I talk to you guys that are all in way more in the fitness world than I am, I am 100% an enthusiast and I know enough to be dangerous.
00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:21.760
Um, but yeah, it's it's to me, it's very interesting.
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:30.239
Yeah, and it it like you were saying exactly, it's like you like being able to race something is really enjoyable.
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:39.679
And like maybe it's maybe it's um comparing your time from last year, or maybe it's like for you dialing in your nutrition pre-race to just give yourself a little edge.
00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:42.559
Like just getting better at things is is really fun.
00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:46.480
And sometimes, like even with a marathon, like a marathon's a perfect example.
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:48.400
Like people are it's awesome.
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:52.239
I think it's awesome that people want to run a marathon, and I think they should do it if they want to do it.
00:35:52.320 --> 00:36:09.599
But sometimes just go run a 5K, just go run a 10K, like start small before you just try to take on this massive challenge that might leave you, you know, discouraged or broken because you didn't kind of take the baby steps to get there.
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:24.480
Um, and a lot of the runners I work with in troll training, like we that's like a huge thing that I try to push them is like, hey, just find a local 10K or just find a local half marathon and like let's just get some data points and make sure you're, you know, you're ready.
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:28.079
Cause obviously with running specifically, it's very injury prone.
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:38.480
So if you can just kind of hit those, you know, hit those marks, so to speak, and get those other things under your belt, you'll have more confidence and it'll feel easier.
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:41.840
It might not be easier, but mentally you're like, okay, I did a half.
00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:47.519
So now like I kind of know what a full is gonna feel like, you know, versus if you just jump into it.
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:50.800
Um, and I have nothing but respect for people that want to go run a hundred miles.
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:53.039
Like I think it's absolutely nuts.
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:59.920
Um, but I do think there's a there's kind of a path to get there that might make it more enjoyable.
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:00.800
Yeah, it makes sense.
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:07.280
And I think for me too, what I've learned within this is like that last 50 I did was like a 17 point something loop.
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:11.440
And so we had to do it like three different times, and I was like, I'm never doing that again.
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:20.719
Like if I'm gonna do 50 or 100 miles, I want a point-to-point, or I want like massive loops because I want to see a bunch of different stuff.
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:23.760
You know, it's like even though it was 17 miles, it was an out and back.
00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:28.239
So I saw the same stuff six different times, and I was like, that just got old really quick.
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:31.360
Uh, but we're in Texas, like it's kind of what we have, you know what I mean?
00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:40.000
And so, like for me, it it definitely is gonna be one of those things where like heading to New Mexico, heading to Colorado to get into the mountains and really get my ass handed to me for sure.
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:42.320
Let's not, let's not, uh, let's not lie to anybody.
00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:43.760
But uh, yeah, I think it'll be fun.
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:44.320
What about you though?
00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:48.079
I mean, you're gonna do the Leadville trail run or any of the hard rocks or anything like that?
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:51.199
I yeah, I would love to get deeper into running.
00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:55.920
I I I ran a ton when I was training for ski racing.
00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:00.400
Like in the offseason, I would do like a lot of times 10 hours of running a week.
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:03.760
Um, and it was very easy, mostly trail running.
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:05.679
Um, but I love running.
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:11.360
I just I don't I can't justify the time to do it with all the bike stuff I have going on.
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:17.519
But like right now, this part of the year in the fall, um I do quite a bit of of running.
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:18.719
It's it's jogging.
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:25.199
Like I'm not really running because I'm I'm not durable enough to like go send it, you know, for for 10 miles right now.
00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:27.280
Like maybe in a month or two I can get there.
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:32.880
But um, it's more just jogging and just enjoying being outside um than it is running.
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:36.800
But yeah, I I don't see myself doing I mean never say never.
00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:42.639
I also said I would never do Leadville mountain bike race, but I don't see myself doing five times later, you've done it a bunch.
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:50.000
Yeah, I don't see myself doing the the um the Leadville 100 running race.
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:54.400
Um but I would like to do a marathon, but I want to give it a good crack.
00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:59.840
Like I want to, I want to have like a good like 12-month build um to do it, right?
00:38:59.920 --> 00:39:01.840
Um, but that definitely is on my bucket list.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:02.400
Yeah, man.
00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:10.880
Yeah, it's and that's been the tough part too, is that I don't even though I enjoy trail running, what's funny is the first time I did one was like a five-mile trail run.
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:13.360
And I've been I grew up racing dirt bikes in the woods, right?
00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:15.440
Uh cross country enduro, stuff like that.
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:23.440
And I literally caught myself out on this five-mile trail run doing uh like rap noises, like in the woods and like running through the trees and stuff like that.
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:27.519
And I was like, ah, this is my people, you know, like this is my place, is out here.
00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:38.079
Like, and so, but I don't have the desire, I don't know why, to go hit a lot of the crazy hard races that everybody else has all the lotteries and stuff like that.
00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:44.400
Like, and maybe it's just because like from racing dirt bikes my entire life, I've already found my limits, I guess.
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:51.920
Like, and I've kind of like pushed myself to a point that it's like, okay, like if I want to be the best version of myself, I know I can find that.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:52.960
But I've already done that.
00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:53.679
That's fine.
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:56.960
Like, let's just leave that lie and go enjoy some fun runs.
00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:01.119
Um, but again, I've you know, you can tell the little ego in me is coming back.
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:02.880
It's like, okay, but you could do that better.
00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:03.760
So let's go try.
00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:05.920
And it's like, fuck, like, come on, man.
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:07.679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:16.800
Well, and too, like, I think something that like you can, I think the cool part about all these endurance sports you can just do on your own.
00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:31.760
And people are finding this out now more than ever, especially with Strava, is like just going and doing like a fastest known time of uh, you know, whatever it is, a trail or you know, something where it's like you can basically just race yourself that day.
00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:33.440
Like it's not a sanctioned race.
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:47.280
Uh like I think even stuff like that is super cool because like not everybody has the freedom to go, you know, like a Leadville to go a week before up into Colorado and you know, deal with all the stuff that comes with it and the price tag and all that stuff.
00:40:47.360 --> 00:41:03.360
So I think with endurance sports, I think that's the coolest part is like you can just go like set your own whatever FKT or go try to do it like the trails near you, like try to KOM them or whatever it is, like just making it like kind of your own deal.
00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:11.840
Um, and I have a lot of friends that just have to do it that way because you know maybe they have to work on Saturdays or you know, whatever it is, like it's just not in the cards.
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:18.880
Um, but I do love I do love chasing something and I love having that carrot in front of me.
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:23.519
So I'm sure you're the same way where it's like if you didn't have a race on the calendar, you might not train as hard.
00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:24.000
Yeah.
00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:28.159
Well that we're talking about it, that has to do with our ego, right?
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:32.400
I mean, that is like at its core, like what we're pushing back up against.
00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:37.599
And that leads me back to like things that you've dealt with with people that you've trained.
00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:40.719
Like, how do you deal with an ego?
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:50.400
And how do you get somebody to see past the past their ego and then adjust the way that they're thinking so that they don't continue to bang their head up against the wall.
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:52.480
Yeah, that's tough.
00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:56.559
That's really tough, especially when your identity is like whatever it is, you know.
00:41:56.639 --> 00:42:02.000
That it's really hard to to uh have that push and pull um with an ego.
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:12.239
But I think that I think the biggest thing is just I think using the ego to their benefit, like an athlete, if you can everybody has ego.
00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:29.679
Um some are some are more obvious than others, but uh I think that if you can use you need a little bit of ego and you need a little bit of naiveness and you need a little bit of arrogance and stubbornness to be a good athlete, but you don't need to always be that, you know, and you don't not every day you have to be that.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:43.360
Um and so I think that's where like figuring out the days that you should use that to your advantage, and then the days where you're like, hey, today's not today's not the day, or you know, I gotta save this for another day and and put my energy there.
00:42:43.599 --> 00:42:54.719
Um, trying to help athletes like navigate that is is really tough, especially when they're really successful at what they do and they kind of have an idea of what they need to do.
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.360
Um that's that's pretty tough.
00:42:57.519 --> 00:43:18.800
And like, and trying to have an impact on that and get in between like them and the ego or them and whatever fears they have, like that's that's a tough line to be in, just because you wanna you wanna support them, but you don't wanna, you know, you don't want to always be the dickhead telling them that like, hey, this isn't gonna work today, dude.
00:43:19.039 --> 00:43:20.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:29.760
So like trying to figure out that balance of like how to go about it with motivating them and keeping their head in the game, but not making them overthink the way they think.
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:31.119
Yeah, because that's the biggest thing.
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:37.199
We know that to be able to be successful at your sport or at your endeavor, you need to think less.
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:39.280
The thinking has to happen in the training, right?
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:46.639
When you're doing the technique work, and that you get to a point where you've built up your confidence or your ego or whatever you want to call it, to a point where you just perform.
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:50.239
You don't question the what your body or what your placement needs to be.
00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:51.199
It just happens.
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:53.840
When I talk about the ego, I like to talk about it in two different ways.
00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:56.159
Like so there's you can build up your confidence.
00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:59.199
So you can have, you know, you can be confident in yourself or you can be cocky.
00:43:59.360 --> 00:44:04.719
And what I like About you can build up your confidence because of the fact that you just proved it to yourself.
00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:08.719
And what happens with when you're cocky, you're trying to prove it to other people.
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:14.800
And so when you become confident in yourself and you have there is a chip on your shoulder, but it's for you.
00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:21.679
It's so that you can always get to the line and go, I know I've done the work, I know that I'm ready and I can do this, whatever that is.
00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:26.480
But the cocky part of it is you're acting in a way, you're trying to show everybody else that you're ready.
00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:29.039
And that's where your ego can get in the way.
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:34.639
And I think it's very interesting when you start to think about it in those uh those those terms, right?
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:41.199
Because we all, whether we like it or not, we kind of we can kind of like fault back especially uh between those two, right?
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:45.760
Where it's like we want to, we want other people to think we're more ready than we even know we really are.
00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:47.599
And that's a hard place to be.
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:48.400
For sure.
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:59.119
Well, and you you kind of nailed it with everything you just said, but like I think certain sports cater better to having a more outlandish ego and being a little cockier.
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:03.199
Like I think you do have sports that it's a benefit to some degree.
00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:15.599
Um, you know, like maybe if you were to take like hockey or football or these, you know, where you can if you can have an edge on them mentally, because it's already going to physically hurt, you know, when you get hit.
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:18.880
But if you can have an edge on them, MMA seems like a perfect for that.
00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:23.840
Oh yeah, or MMA, like yeah, like Connor McGregor is probably the playbook of this.
00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:24.559
It's funny.
00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:27.199
That's exactly where my head was at when you were talking about it.
00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:32.880
Yeah, it's like he made I think he made the play, but well, he didn't make the playbook, but in modern era, he made the playbook.
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:37.840
Obviously, you have uh boxers behind him that that really made that playbook.
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:48.400
Um, but yeah, it's like you you kind of need it in certain sports, and then there's some sports where it's like not having any ego, I think is a massive advantage.
00:45:48.639 --> 00:45:56.800
You know, like if you're if you're going out on like let's just say the Leadville 100 running race specifically, just because of how long it is.
00:45:56.960 --> 00:46:07.360
Um, if you're going to Leadville 100 running race, like you have to respect the course and what your body's gonna go through and all that stuff way before you need to worry about your competition.
00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:15.760
You know, like your competition is a piece of it, but it's like you're really racing the course more than you are in yourself, more than you are anybody else.
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:30.800
And I think there's certain sports where it's like you just gotta go into it as prepared as you can, and then just be ready to pivot if anything goes wrong, or you know, hopefully nothing goes wrong, but generally something will come up that you're gonna have to pivot from.
00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:37.280
Um, and that's where like some sports, it's like having no ego and just doing the best you can is is a huge benefit.
00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:42.159
On a another recent podcast that I heard you on, because it seems like you're on a slew of them right now.
00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:50.320
You were uh recommending to yeah, some athletes take their wearables off at night before a big race so they don't get caught up in the numbers the next morning.
00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:55.039
I was like, what are you kind of trying to protect them from when you have that kind of a suggestion?
00:46:55.280 --> 00:47:09.119
Yeah, it's you just like you're gonna if you're gonna have to do the event no matter what, especially if it's your job, like let's just say it's your job and you're gonna have to go whatever sport it is and compete the next day.
00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:18.079
Like if your if your whoop score, your aura ring score or whatever is like really bad and you have to compete, it just doesn't help you in any way.
00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:18.719
Right, right.
00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:20.079
Like mentally, you know.
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:28.000
So if you just take away that one factor for that one night, um it'll help you mentally.
00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:32.320
Cause like I've had races where I know my score is low.
00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:36.719
Like I won't, I won't even take my own advice sometimes, and I'll just wear it because I just want to know.
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:41.280
Um, especially like high altitude races, I love to see the oxygen uh percentage.
00:47:41.440 --> 00:47:48.559
The in I don't even care about it the morning of, but just naturally I'm like, all right, I'm not gonna check it in the morning, I'll check it after the race.
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:52.719
And then you look at the data and it's like, thank God I didn't see that before the race.
00:47:52.960 --> 00:48:07.679
It's not like it would have really affected my race, but like maybe if I was in a certain amount of pain on a climb or I would have been, you know, second guessing something, I'm like, oh, maybe it's because I didn't sleep well, instead of just going out and doing your best, you know.
00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:15.199
And I think um, yeah, for me, like I've never had great sleep the night before races, like Leadville specifically.
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:18.800
Like, if I can get five hours of sleep, like I'm pretty happy with that.
00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:23.519
Um, just because of the altitude, you're sleeping at 10,000 feet and you got to be able to get away.
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:26.639
And you're gonna wake up at three o'clock in the morning or whatever you said.
00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:31.280
So it's like you're gonna try how you're gonna go to sleep at six o'clock on a new night, you know what I mean?
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:32.079
Like, exactly.
00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:38.400
Yeah, so it's like when you put all those factors in, it's like just take it off, remove it, you know, from your mind.
00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:46.880
So that isn't a factor because I've had honestly, some of my best races, um, I've had horrible scores, like really, really bad scores.
00:48:47.119 --> 00:48:56.719
Um, and I think for me specifically, like I like to remember that, you know, like hey, you don't need a perfect night of sleep the night before an event to crush it.
00:48:56.800 --> 00:49:02.960
Um, you know, you don't want like 10 nights of bad sleep leading up to the race, but one one night's not gonna kill you.
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:13.679
Yeah, and I think too, like there's I I do believe a lot like Whoop and Aura and a lot of those now have like a feature where you can turn it off and you're kind of like, hey, collect the data, don't show me any numbers.
00:49:13.840 --> 00:49:16.079
Like even if I open the app, I don't want to know about it.
00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:25.360
And I think that for some people that can be beneficial because then that could be that thing three days later when you're finally recovered from whatever the deal is, you come back and be like, you know what?
00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:31.119
The past couple races I've done this thing at eight o'clock and I logged it and I'm just sleeping like shit.
00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:32.800
Maybe I should stop trying to do that.
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:34.480
Or maybe there's like something you can add.
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:41.039
And I think that there's a benefit to having that kind of a thing, but only if you're already logging and using the journals.
00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:46.559
If you're not using the journals, like I've kind of gotten to a point now where I've been on whoop since like 2019.
00:49:46.639 --> 00:49:49.039
Like I kind of know a lot of stuff.
00:49:49.119 --> 00:49:53.519
It's just I have literally years of data and I'd like to just keep accumulating that.
00:49:53.679 --> 00:49:58.880
Um, but it's like for the first three years, it was all journal and it was all like, okay, like how can I optimize this?
00:49:58.960 --> 00:49:59.760
How can I optimize that?
00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:00.719
And I'm like, okay, cool.
00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:02.079
I've kind of figured some things out.
00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:03.920
And again, now I'm back to that bell curve.
00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:05.360
I kind of fit in that 80%.
00:50:05.679 --> 00:50:08.719
And if shit's not feeling that good, I'll sway one way a little bit more.
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:11.280
When things are feeling pretty good, I might sway back the other way.
00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:21.119
So I think it could be useful for people that maybe are journaling and wanting to look back at data to wear it and hide the score instead of just like taking it off altogether.
00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:25.920
But I completely understand, you know, what you're the reasons behind it.
00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:31.199
Do you use any wearables uh besides the traditional Garmin's and polars and stuff like that?
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:38.880
Yeah, I have a uh a Garmin uh watch on, and then I've had an aura ring on for a long time.
00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:40.400
I've used a bunch of different wearables.
00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:45.199
I've been whoop guy, I've been um, yeah, you name it, I've probably had it.
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:49.280
Um because I like all the different data, and it is it is crazy how different data is.
00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:52.400
Like my Garmin data at night is much different than my aura ring.
00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:57.199
Um, so that's always in and I always tell people like it's a rough guesstimate.
00:50:57.519 --> 00:51:01.519
Like the biggest thing, like you just said, is having data to back it.
00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:09.119
So like maybe your whoop band says that your HRV is 80, but it might really be 90 or it might really be 70.
00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:09.599
Right.
00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:13.760
But as long as you have the data, like you know it doesn't really matter what it is.
00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:15.920
It's like you know where you should be roughly.
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:19.760
Um it's the consistency in that with that you're looking for.
00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:21.199
Exactly, exactly.
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:24.000
So, and yeah, all that data I think is super valuable.
00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:25.840
And um, I track it every day.
00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:31.360
I've been taking my resting heart rate since I mean, like 2009 every day.
00:51:31.599 --> 00:51:34.239
Um, and this is before any of this stuff.
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:39.920
So this is like back when you put the little medical, I used to buy the little medical finger uh deal.
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:41.920
And so I'd take my heart rate that way every morning.
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:52.320
And so I've I've kind of always been into these metrics, like before you could see the stuff, but now to have it and not have to think when I wake up um is really nice and it definitely changes the game.
00:51:52.400 --> 00:51:54.480
But I also don't live and die by these numbers.
00:51:54.639 --> 00:51:58.719
Like if you have a couple days where it's not right, um, it's okay.
00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:06.320
Like, you know, you're not, but if you have like five days of horrible data, or you know, like the aura ring, I think does a really good job with body temperature.
00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:12.960
Like if your body temperature all of a sudden skyrockets and your HRV drops, it's like, all right, you're probably fighting something, like take the day off.
00:52:13.119 --> 00:52:16.880
Um, but generally speaking, yeah, it's like you don't want to live and die by this data.
00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:23.599
Like if you know, like for you, Brian, like you do a huge Wednesday workout, like you know Thursday, like your data might not be great.
00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:26.159
It could be okay, but it might not be great.
00:52:26.559 --> 00:52:28.000
Yeah, it all hurts.
00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:28.960
Yeah.
00:52:29.199 --> 00:52:40.079
So like I think that's the biggest thing is just knowing like the trends of your training and how it's probably gonna look in days that you know, if you take like a Sunday off, Monday morning should be pretty good data.
00:52:40.159 --> 00:52:44.800
If it's not good data, like maybe you didn't recover well from the week before or you know, whatever.
00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:50.960
So just knowing kind of how the body works and having tons of data points on yourself is really useful.
00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:55.280
Um, but yeah, you don't need to like freak out if you have like one bad day of data.
00:52:55.519 --> 00:52:58.159
Longevity is a really big word these days.
00:52:58.320 --> 00:53:02.159
And and at 47, I'll be honest, it is something that I think about.
00:53:02.239 --> 00:53:13.199
Like uh about five years ago, I really did start transitioning the way that I think about the way that I treat my my body and how I live my life because I really do want to, I hope I can walk into my 90s.
00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:16.400
I hope I can get on the ground and play with my grandkids, kind of a thing.
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:16.960
Like that.
00:53:17.119 --> 00:53:21.920
And within that, I live my life to kind of try to facilitate that towards later on.
00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:26.000
But the thing is, is when you're working with professional athletes, it's very much in the now.
00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:43.440
And so I kind of wonder, like with everything you've learned working with professional athletes and the way what you're seeing out there in the world of fitness and all the influencers and what they talk about on social media, like, is there anything that you think you've learned that it's like there's maybe some keys towards longevity that we could all take away?
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:48.320
Yeah, I probably shouldn't speak on longevity uh a ton because I'm 35.
00:53:48.639 --> 00:53:52.480
So I'm kind of like still in my prime as far as sports go.
00:53:52.639 --> 00:54:00.960
But I do think that like if you just look at all the studies and all the data on longevity, um, exercise is number one.
00:54:01.280 --> 00:54:09.599
Like, like food and all these little like hacks, like of course you want to eat healthy, and of course you want to like nourish your body as best you can.
00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:15.440
But if you're not exercising, a lot of that stuff doesn't have quite as big as an effect as it could.
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:24.559
So I think number one is exercising, moving your body, staying strong, having good bone density, um, you know, strength, especially, mobility.
00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:27.519
Um, and it doesn't need to be like how you and I train.
00:54:27.599 --> 00:54:30.239
It doesn't need to be, you know, five-hour bike rides.
00:54:30.320 --> 00:54:31.920
It could just be a 30-minute walk.
00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:34.800
You know, that is helping with your health.
00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:41.360
And so I really like to point people in that direction first is like start exercising is number one.
00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:47.119
Um, and you see this, I'm gonna say this study, but I don't know if this is 100% correct.
00:54:47.199 --> 00:55:04.960
But it's like after the age of 70, and this is just due to um women and their um bone density, after the age of 70 or 75, maybe, when a woman breaks their hip, they had like less than a year to live.
00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:07.039
Like that's a legitimate study somewhere.
00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:07.920
Someone can look it up.
00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:10.960
I might have butchered some of those numbers, but it's pretty close to that.
00:55:11.199 --> 00:55:17.679
Um, and so just knowing that, it's like let's just say you're a female and you don't know where to start.
00:55:17.760 --> 00:55:22.639
It's like just going out and walking, getting some bone density in, doing a little bit of strength.
00:55:22.719 --> 00:55:28.719
You don't need to squat 500 pounds, but even just doing body weight strength is gonna help with longevity.
00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:34.719
And then once you can kind of do that, then it's like all those little other little things can help.
00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:41.519
You know, taking this pill and taking that pill and all this stuff, like then that stuff becomes a bigger percentage of what can help you.
00:55:41.599 --> 00:55:46.639
But I think starting with the big ones, like sleeping enough, exercising, eating as well as you can.
00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:50.079
You know, you don't you don't need to eat perfect, like everybody thinks you have to eat perfect.
00:55:50.239 --> 00:55:51.840
Um, you just need to be good.
00:55:52.000 --> 00:56:02.800
You know, you don't like I always tell people like 80% of the time, eat as as well as you can, 20% of the time, you know, enjoy that pizza, enjoy a piece of cake, you know, live a little too.
00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:13.280
Um, but you definitely don't want to be in the category of like no exercise, and then you're just kooking out on like, you know, there's a little bit of seed oil in this food, or there's a little bit of this.
00:56:13.440 --> 00:56:15.599
You know, people they get caught in the weeds a little too much.
00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:16.400
Yeah, they do.
00:56:16.559 --> 00:56:18.000
Man, that's some good shit right there.
00:56:18.159 --> 00:56:25.039
Yeah, you you it's okay to be an asshole when you the way you eat 20% of the time, but don't be an asshole 80% of the time.
00:56:25.199 --> 00:56:25.760
We'll go with that.
00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:26.400
Or 100%.
00:56:26.559 --> 00:56:26.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:29.280
Well, and you know, it's all individual too.
00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:44.400
Like, you definitely don't want to if you're trying to lose weight or like you're let's say you you're you're super obese, like then it is kind of like, hey, you need to be pretty good most of the time so you can get to a healthy, you know, point in your life where you can enjoy the things you want to enjoy.
00:56:44.559 --> 00:56:54.559
Um, but I think once you're in a spot where you can manage it, you know, you can definitely, you can definitely enjoy, you know, like for me, I'll I'll give you a perfect example of this.
00:56:54.719 --> 00:56:56.800
And I do this all the time in the summer.
00:56:56.880 --> 00:57:02.159
And most people would be mind blown that don't quite get nutrition a hundred percent.
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:14.719
But when I'm like cooked on a ride, like a like usually if it's like five to seven hour ride and I'm training for a big race, I'm on my Domino's app like an hour before my ride's done.
00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:22.639
So when I get home, I have a large thin crust barbecue chicken pizza from Domino's on my doorstep.
00:57:22.880 --> 00:57:25.840
I don't have to cook, I can just eat that thing.
00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:30.320
And like some of those rides might be four or five thousand calorie rides.
00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:31.840
There is no guilt.
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:36.000
There's no, like it's not the best fueling I could do by any means.
00:57:36.159 --> 00:57:38.239
Um, but it's a good chunk of calories.
00:57:38.320 --> 00:57:40.719
It tastes good, it's hard to beat.
00:57:40.880 --> 00:57:43.440
Um and yeah, it's like that's my guilty pleasure.
00:57:43.519 --> 00:57:49.360
It's like, all right, if I'm gonna go crank out 5,000 calorie ride, I'm gonna order myself a Domino's.
00:57:49.679 --> 00:57:52.000
Dude, that's a hell of a life hack right there.
00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:53.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:53.840
I like that.
00:57:54.000 --> 00:57:55.360
Or a training hack, maybe.
00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:57.280
Well, I don't know about life hack, but we'll go with it.
00:57:57.440 --> 00:57:59.199
Well, dude, I really appreciate your time.
00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:01.119
Thank you for sharing all the things that you share.
00:58:01.280 --> 00:58:04.320
Is there anything else that's been itching on your mind you just need to get off your chest?
00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:09.360
No, I think um, for better or worse, man, I'm like podcasting my brains out.
00:58:09.440 --> 00:58:14.079
And I uh I appreciate you that we've been in the works for this for a long time.
00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:17.199
Um and I'm I'm happy it finally worked out.
00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:19.599
So I apologize for for taking so long.
00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:21.039
But um, yeah, this has been great, man.
00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:28.559
And I'm I'm stoked to see your races and see what you have going on um, you know, in the next year or whatever uh timeline you have.
00:58:28.719 --> 00:58:31.440
But just yeah, I think I think what you're doing is really awesome as well.
00:58:31.679 --> 00:58:32.719
It's gonna be a lot of fun, man.
00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:33.519
I really appreciate it.
00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:36.480
Well, thank you again for taking the time to come on Deepish Conversations.
00:58:36.559 --> 00:58:37.840
Thank you for sharing some of your knowledge.
00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:42.079
Thank you for just being awesome and uh having a sick mustache.
00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:44.400
Yeah, dude, mustache is bad.
00:58:45.679 --> 00:58:46.719
Thanks, dude.
00:58:46.960 --> 00:58:52.159
Huge thank you to John Wesling of Troll Training for taking the time to come on Deepish Conversations.
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:58.400
This is episode number eight, and I am on my way to getting toward episode number 10, which was my goal from the beginning.
00:58:58.559 --> 00:59:03.920
If there's anything that you've taken away, please make sure you give it a like, give it a subscribe, leave a comment.
00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:08.000
If there's anything, I would like to help you with that and continue these conversations.
00:59:08.159 --> 00:59:09.440
So thank you again for tuning in.
00:59:09.679 --> 00:59:10.159
Appreciate it.
00:59:10.320 --> 00:59:11.280
We'll see you for the next one.
00:59:11.440 --> 00:59:11.840
Peace.